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Author Topic: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible  (Read 4247 times)

Offline Low-Q

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I stumbled across this link. Interesting reading, but is it legit?
Please share your views on this.
https://www.powerelectronics.com/alternative-energy/new-discovery-could-lead-commercial-production-permanent-magnet-motors


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Floor

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 08:32:36 PM »
  "New discovery"

I     don't    doubt that they have a permanent magnet motor.

I do however, doubt that its basic operating methods and principles can be patented.

Probably their patents and many other patents could and will spin off of those underlying methods.

Whether or not these researchers are aware of it
              Those methods and principles can be found    open sourced    here at the OU forum.

                 floor


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 06:14:10 AM »
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Offline MagnaProp

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 09:48:17 AM »
Hi Low-Q. I don't understand what is being said in that article. If there is an attraction and repulsion force at the same time, don't they cancel each other out?

Offline Low-Q

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 04:00:07 PM »
Hi Low-Q. I don't understand what is being said in that article. If there is an attraction and repulsion force at the same time, don't they cancel each other out?
I think the idea is that when they combine equatorial forces and polar forces, they can "switch" from attraction to repulsion without external energy.


Say you have two magnets in parallell. N up, S down on both, these magnets will repel eachother equatorially because both magnets have the same polarity next to them. If you move one magnet down, the horizontal repulsion forces decrease in the equatorially, and the vertical attraction force increase in the polar plane because N of the moved magnet is approaching S on the other magnet. Until a point where the equatorial repulsion is the same as the polar attraction force. At this point you can separate or approach the magnets without input energy. At this position, the switching takes place.
See the figures how the magnets are positioned.


They claim that these two forces can work together when the magnets are positioned in a given way. I do, however, have my doubt about the practical experiment, and question how they can manage to make this work as a free energy device. It's not a question about the engineering part, but the actual outcome that is based on the desired function.


I have myself spent many, many hours, actually years, figuring out how and why mangnets do what they do. Countless designs that has proven non-workable devices. Tried this, tried that untill the brain overloads.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 04:00:07 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 06:01:25 PM »
I am building a very simple device that I think will "work" on the same principle, but a rotary one.
Simulations in FEMM does not provide any meaningful results, so I build one just to understand how equatorial and polar forces works together. In 5 hours the 3D printer is finished with the first parts that is supposed to support the magnets. Different tests will be done, but I cannot promise videos, but pictures would do for the initial exprriments.


Vidar

Offline MagnaProp

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 05:08:35 AM »
Thanks for the info. I have some little cube magnets in my hands now. If I bring them close to each other horizontally, with a vertical off set so that one cube is above the other, them are attracted to each other. I feel slight repulsion as they get really close together, pushing them apart vertically slightly, before the attraction is strong enough to make them snap together. I don't see how that slight repulsion help us?

Looking forward to your build images. Thanks again for the help in understanding what is going on here.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 05:08:35 AM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 05:56:53 AM »
Study HJ's work.  Study Steve Kundel's work.  Study Qin Gang's work.

It don't get much simpler than that.

Far too many researchers have focused solely upon making a rotary system powered solely by PM interaction...

Including myself back in the day.

It clicked for me when I saw that copious field changes could be had for next to naught.

Ever see the movie: "Safety Not Guaranteed"?

Funny show.



Offline Jimboot

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 06:39:52 AM »
Isn't that the MEG principle of switching?


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 06:39:52 AM »
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Offline Belfior

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 07:36:22 PM »
Isn't that the MEG principle of switching?

MEG came after decades of others

Offline onepower

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2018, 12:08:51 AM »
LowQ
Quote
I am building a very simple device that I think will "work" on the same principle, but a rotary one.
Simulations in FEMM does not provide any meaningful results, so I build one just to understand how equatorial and polar forces works together.

I have also found simulations basically useless and a waste of time vs reality.

Quote
In 5 hours the 3D printer is finished with the first parts that is supposed to support the magnets. Different tests will be done, but I cannot promise videos, but pictures would do for the initial exprriments.

I have found "what we think" is of little relevance relative to "how we think" which concerns the logic and reason behind our thinking.

So we have two magnets which supposedly repel along a vertical line while attracting along a horizontal line... now what?. Science, a method of inquiry, says we should determine "what" the real forces are between the magnets "where" they act on one another. So we should build a disk holding the upper magnet (M1) which allows it to move along a horizontal plane over the lower magnet(M2). We then measure the vertical and horizontal forces on each magnet M1 and M2 with a $3 force sensor such as this DF9-40 High Pressure Sensor Resistance-type Thin Film Force Sensor Waterproof. Next we would use a gear stepper motor to rotate the disk along the horizontal plane and measure the current input and a servo to move the plane of the disk vertically.

Now we have two magnets and one magnet M1 can move accurately along a plane and we can measure the forces... now what?. We could dork around for months or we could use our head and let a $10 computer like an Arduino Uno do all the hard stuff for us. It's a computer, it computes stuff, so we should let it do what it does best.

Now we apply some logic and reason:
Our variables are Magnet M1 forces Vertical V1 and Horizontal H1, Magnet M2 forces are V2 and H2, the disk input current is I1 and the disk stepper motor position P1, the servo position for the disk S1.

Our reason and logic:
If the current I1 to the stepper motor increases the motor is acting against a force and if I1 decreases the motor is acting with a force. Obviously the goal is to look for a force which acts with us on magnet M1 decreasing I1 more than it acts against us increasing I1.

So we rotate the disk with the stepper motor measuring it's horizontal position P1 and its vertical position with S1 within a 3D space and we measure the forces on M1 and M2. Now we follow the logic...

We are looking for a decreasing value of I1 and forces on M1-M2 as M1 approaches M2. We are also looking for a decreasing value of I1 and increasing forces on M1-M2 as M1 moves away from M2. So we measure the rate at which a variable changes by measuring the amount and direction of change from one position of P1 to the next position. So we tell the Arduino to change P1 through 360 degrees of disk rotation at servo position S1 then change the position of S1 (P1=P1+1, if P1=360 then S1=S1+S1).

As P1 goes through 360 degrees and S1 through it's range we don't record all the variables and try to graph it because that's very time consuming and absurd. We teach the Arduino how to recognize what were looking for... so what is it we are looking for again?. Decreasing values of I1, decreasing forces as M1 approaches M2 and increasing forces as M1 leaves M2. So if M1 and M2 align at P1 180 degrees then we look for decreasing forces to 180 and increasing forces after 180.

P1 (current position) = P2, P1=P1+1(next position of P1), if I1 at P2(last position) < I1 at P1(current position) then I1 is decreasing in value indicating the direction of the change. We can do this for the vertical and horizontal forces on M1 and M2 as well to indicate the direction of the change. Thus we can begin to formulate a logical plan as to how our Arduino should act. We can use the same kind of logic as MPPT, maximum power point tracking.

Our Arduino can then "look" for the path of least resistance when M1 approaches M2 at P1 180 degrees all by itself. It can also look for a path which produces the maximum force on M1 as it leaves M2 all by itself. When the current input I1 reduces to zero and the stepping motor acts as a generator more often than not then we have found our answer. Why would we spend countless hours doing experiments changing variables and countless hours trying to sort out what the data is telling us when a $10 computer can crunch all the numbers and tell us exactly what works or not and how to do it?.

This shines a new light on all our experiments doesn't it?, where we can have a computer look for patterns in the measured variables as they change and then change the variables in such a direction as to always move towards our goal then tell us how it did it. As I said how we think and the method of reasoning behind our thoughts is often more much important than any given belief or opinion which cannot be justified in reality. It's called Metacognition which is the awareness and understanding of one's own thought processes... not what we think but why and how.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2018, 12:08:51 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2018, 03:01:07 PM »
I said permanent magnets have overunity because their field is asymmetric, they have two poles. Every asymmetric field can do work. And i showed it with experiments here. But the overunity in them is not enough to overcome friction. I know how much overunity they have and this is not much, thus all the claims of powerful motors using permanent magnets are beyond doubt hoaxes.

Offline onepower

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2018, 11:52:11 PM »
ayeaye
Quote
I said permanent magnets have overunity because their field is asymmetric, they have two poles. Every asymmetric field can do work. And i showed it with experiments here. But the overunity in them is not enough to overcome friction. I know how much overunity they have and this is not much, thus all the claims of powerful motors using permanent magnets are beyond doubt hoaxes.

I mapped the fields within a 3D space and the fields are symmetric but non-uniform which is not the same thing. Your claim is also false because you do not know the COP, nobody does. This is true because the COP is dictated by a force acting over a distance as well as the rate at which the force or distance changes. The rate of change or field cycle rate can have almost any value thus so can the COP as a whole.

Obviously they are not all hoaxes just because you do not seem to know what your doing because that would mean your own ignorance must somehow magically affect all the other inventors dragging them down to your level. You don't honestly think your own beliefs can magically affect everyone else do you because that's a clear sign of mental disorders in my opinion.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2018, 04:31:48 AM »
A field that has two poles is definitely not symmetric. A typical symmetric field is spherical.

Offline citfta

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2018, 12:34:20 PM »
Definition of symmetrical:

symmetrical  (sɪmetrɪkəl )   adjective If something is symmetrical, it has two halves which are exactly the same, except that one half is the mirror image of the other.   ...the neat rows of perfectly symmetrical windows. Synonyms: balanced, regular, proportional, in proportion   More Synonyms of symmetrical  symmetrically (sɪmetrɪkl ) adverb [ADVERB with verb] The south garden at Sissinghurst was composed symmetrically.

By this definition a symmetrical object does NOT have to be spherical.

 

 

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