Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment (Read 94092 times)

ayeaye · « **Reply #270 on:** December 21, 2018, 01:04:53 PM »

Quote from: itsu on December 21, 2018, 11:14:30 AM

I cannot think of what the cause is for the low (61°) phase angle in my present coil.

I don't know, one thing i can think of, is that your coil is too well made. Too regular. When the capacitance between the windings is everywhere the same, then it might well be that there is no current in the coils at all, all moves only by capacitance. No current moving through the coil means no inductance, all the bifilar coil might be in effect just a capacitor. But there need to be both, capacitance and inductance.

tinman · « **Reply #271 on:** December 21, 2018, 01:28:22 PM »

Quote from: F6FLT on December 21, 2018, 11:42:58 AM

You're right, ayeaye. The measurement method is wrong, not only Pout but also Pin.

The output power is not equal to CH3²/(R1+R2) but is equal to Pout = (CH3-CH2)²/R1 + CH2²/R2 as you stated.
And the input current is not given by CH2 because current from R1 is added so Pin is wrong too.

(As I may be wrong too, please guys explain your method with Pout=CH3²/(R1+R2) while it's not the same current in R1 and R2).

For me, if you want use the voltage at R2 terminals to know the input current and have Pout=CH3²/R1 + CH2²/R2 and Pin=CH1*(CH2/R2) then you have to connect the probes this way:

As below

itsu · « **Reply #272 on:** December 21, 2018, 01:46:59 PM »

I used my 2th similar bifilar pancake coil to check my measurements.

The first used bifi measured 133.8uH and 131.2uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz (using my Agilent U1733C LCR meter)
The second now used bifi measures 125.5uH and 122.4uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz.

Still using the TK measurement procedure i get (still @ 1.44MHz):

CH1 (yellow) 1.99V Cycrms
CH2 (Blue) 45.06mA Cycrms
CH3 (purple) 921.7mV Cycrms
Math (red) CH1 x CH2 = 41.88mW
Phase difference CH1 => CH2 = 62.25° (blue = current = leading)

As my scope only can present 4 measurements at a time, see the below 2 screenshots for the 5 important measurements.

Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 41.88mW
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms x Cos (phi) = P ave
1.99 x 0.04506 x Cos (-62.25) = 41.75mW (same as scope instantaneous calc's)

Pout = CH3²/(R1+R2)
= 0.921.7²/21
= 40,45mW

COP = 40.45 / 41.75 = 0.968

So results are almost the same using 2 different bifilar pancake coils.

Now doing the measurement the F6FLT way......

Itsu

tinman · « **Reply #273 on:** December 21, 2018, 01:57:26 PM »

Quote from: itsu on December 21, 2018, 01:46:59 PM

I used my 2th similar bifilar pancake coil to check my measurements.

The first used bifi measured 133.8uH and 131.2uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz (using my Agilent U1733C LCR meter)
The second now used bifi measures 125.5uH and 122.4uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz.

Still using the TK measurement procedure i get (still @ 1.44MHz):

CH1 (yellow) 1.99V Cycrms
CH2 (Blue) 45.06mA Cycrms
CH3 (purple) 921.7mV Cycrms
Math (red) CH1 x CH2 = 41.88mW
Phase difference CH1 => CH2 = 62.25° (blue = current = leading)

As my scope only can present 4 measurements at a time, see the below 2 screenshots for the 5 important measurements.

Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 41.88mW
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms x Cos (phi) = P ave
1.99 x 0.04506 x Cos (-62.25) = 41.75mW (same as scope instantaneous calc's)

Pout = CH3²/(R1+R2)
= 0.921.7²/21
= 40,45mW

COP = 40.45 / 41.75 = 0.968

So results are almost the same using 2 different bifilar pancake coils.

Now doing the measurement the F6FLT way......

Itsu

The fact that current leads voltage at these high frequencies,using a BIFI coil,is nothing out of the ordinary. The bifi coil is simply more capacitive than inductive at these high frequencies.

When you lower the frequency,you will see that the voltage will start to lead current.

Brad

F6FLT · « **Reply #274 on:** December 21, 2018, 01:58:20 PM »

The transformer is only used to isolate the FG from the circuit. We only want to measure the circuit so CH1 must be taken on L1.
The statement "The power calculations of the circuit attached to your pole cannot be calculated using a common grounded oscilloscope" is not based on any engineering rules. I confirm that power measurements can be done perfectly well in accordance with what I have indicated:
https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/dlattach/attach/170845/image//

F6FLT · « **Reply #275 on:** December 21, 2018, 02:08:29 PM »

Quote from: tinman on December 21, 2018, 01:57:26 PM

...
When you lower the frequency,you will see that the voltage will start to lead current.

When you lower the frequency, since the L1 output terminal is not connected, the current can only flow through the dielectric of the coils gap. At low frequencies, the circuit becomes only capacitative and therefore the current is reduced, down to zero at zero frequency (dc).

tinman · « **Reply #276 on:** December 21, 2018, 02:10:44 PM »

Quote from: F6FLT on December 21, 2018, 01:58:20 PM

The transformer is only used to isolate the FG from the circuit. We only want to measure the circuit so CH1 must be taken on L1.
The statement "The power calculations of the circuit attached to your pole cannot be calculated using a common grounded oscilloscope" is not based on any engineering rules. I confirm that power measurements can be done perfectly well in accordance with what I have indicated:
https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/dlattach/attach/170845/image//

Sorry F6FLT,but i do not agree with that.
Myself and partzman have been caught out like this before,where capacitive coupled paths exist that bypass the CVR,(more so at these high frequencies)and so accurate power calculations cannot be made the way you indicate.

You will see(and i believe partzman has already shown)that COPs greater than one will start to show up. The error will be the same as it was before--unforseen capacitive coupling bypassing the CVR.

Brad

itsu · « **Reply #277 on:** December 21, 2018, 02:21:00 PM »

Using the F6FLT diagram in post #268, i get:

Blue CH2 inverted
CH1 value needs to have CH2 value substracted i think (1.909 - 44.36mV = 1.86V)

CH1 1.909V (- 0.4436 = 1.86V)
CH2 44.36mA (CH2 inverted)
CH3 849.3mV
Phase CH1-CH2 -64.83°
Math 34.84mW

Pin = CH1 * (CH2/R2) (no phase involved??)
Pin = 1.86 * (0.4436 / 1)
Pin = 0.0825W = 82.5mW

When using the phase i get: 1.86 * 0.04436 * Cos (-64.83) = 0.035W = 35mW

Again math function scope and calculated values (including Cos) are very close 34.84mW versus 35mW

Pout = CH3² / R1 + CH2² / R2
pout = 0.8493² / 20 + 0.04436² / 1
Pout = 0.036 + 0.00196
pout = 0.0379W = 37.9mW

COP = 37.9 / 35 = 1.08

Still within the margins of measurement errors i think.

Itsu

tinman · « **Reply #278 on:** December 21, 2018, 03:02:39 PM »

Quote from: F6FLT on December 21, 2018, 01:58:20 PM

The statement "The power calculations of the circuit attached to your post cannot be calculated using a common grounded oscilloscope" is not based on any engineering rules. I confirm that power measurements can be done perfectly well in accordance with what I have indicated:
https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/dlattach/attach/170845/image//

Below i have added a capacitive coupled current loop that has not been taken into consideration.
This is why you cannot accurately calculate power as you have indicated,as R2 will not see all the current that is flowing through L1.

Quote

is not based on any engineering rules

No,it's based on previous experiments,where COPs of 200%+ were being had,and the overlooked capacitive couplings were found. These findings were had from many hours on the bench,by many of the people here--2 of which were partzman and my self.

In some cases it wont account for much,but it is enough to tip the scales against the known laws of physics.

Brad

partzman · « **Reply #279 on:** December 21, 2018, 05:14:48 PM »

Let's see, if we assume for a moment there is a source of excess energy in properly configured pancake coil arrangements and we were to master the technology, perhaps it would perform like the device seen in the video at-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4fp9J_7-JQ&t=1s

Or then again, maybe it is a hoax!

Regards,
Pm

Void · « **Reply #280 on:** December 21, 2018, 05:41:55 PM »

I have also spent many hours testing many variations of circuits including along the
general lines of what you are testing here, and trying to draw definite conclusions from
scope measurements of circuits like this can definitely be very tricky sometimes. As an example,
in some cases I have measured phase shifts with my scope between input voltage and current waveforms
that were well over 90 degrees, and if those measurements were taken as 'accurate' without questioning them,
it would indicate significant OU, but the actual average power being delivered to a load does not appear to be
out of the ordinary. Yes, there can be significant capacitive coupling loops in these circuits, depending on the frequency
of operation and the actual circuit config, which can throw off measurements, as well as other factors throwing off measurements,
so the great equalizer here, as always, is what happens when you try to self loop the circuit? This is where the
OU measurements of COP > 1 will typically crumble quickly. Hey, my scope measurements are indicating a COP of 2 !!!
(or whatever), but for some darn reason I can't seem to self-loop the circuit. Sound familiar? Hmm...

partzman · « **Reply #281 on:** December 21, 2018, 06:12:11 PM »

Quote from: Void on December 21, 2018, 05:41:55 PM

I have also spent many hours testing many variations of circuits including along the
general lines of what you are testing here, and trying to draw definite conclusions from
scope measurements of circuits like this can definitely be very tricky sometimes. As an example,
in some cases I have measured phase shifts with my scope between input voltage and current waveforms
that were well over 90 degrees, and if those measurements were taken as 'accurate' without questioning them,
it would indicate significant OU, but the actual average power being delivered to a load does not appear to be
out of the ordinary. Yes, there can be significant capacitive coupling loops in these circuits, depending on the frequency
of operation and the actual circuit config, which can throw off measurements, as well as other factors throwing off measurements,
so the great equalizer here, as always, is what happens when you try to self loop the circuit? This is where the
OU measurements of COP > 1 will typically crumble quickly. Hey, my scope measurements are indicating a COP of 2 !!!
(or whatever), but for some darn reason I can't seem to self-loop the circuit. Sound familiar? Hmm...

Let's again assume for a moment that this device is producing excess energy, what specific suggestions would you have for a circuit configuration that would allow looping to prove or disprove the concept?

Anyone?

Pm

Void · « **Reply #282 on:** December 21, 2018, 06:18:52 PM »

Quote from: partzman on December 21, 2018, 06:12:11 PM

Let's again assume for a moment that this device is producing excess energy, what specific
suggestions would you have for a circuit configuration that would allow looping to prove or disprove the concept?
Anyone?
Pm

Hi partzman. If the COP being measured is very close to 1 (such as 1.08) then you
probably aren't going to get very far with trying to self-loop of course, but converting the
output to a DC voltage across an electrolytic capacitor (using high speed (ultra fast) diodes to make
the bridge rectifier, if appropriate) is probably the easiest route to go in general.
P.S. You can get high efficiency step up and step down DC to DC converters on E-Bay that are
quite inexpensive, if you need to shift the output DC voltage up or down to match the input voltage requirement.

AlienGrey · « **Reply #283 on:** December 21, 2018, 11:05:07 PM »

Quote from: partzman on December 21, 2018, 05:14:48 PM

Let's see, if we assume for a moment there is a source of excess energy in properly configured pancake coil arrangements and we were to master the technology, perhaps it would perform like the device seen in the video at-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4fp9J_7-JQ&t=1s

Or then again, maybe it is a hoax!

Regards,
Pm

wouldn't you need to cross over one input to the output of the other and then find the frequency of the required phase shift tesla found a special frequency a 90 deg phase shift would produce a much greater output see CIA recently released Tesla papers.

ayeaye · « **Reply #284 on:** December 21, 2018, 11:54:47 PM »

Quote from: Void on December 21, 2018, 05:41:55 PM

Hey, my scope measurements are indicating a COP of 2 !!!
(or whatever), but for some darn reason I can't seem to self-loop the circuit. Sound familiar? Hmm...

This doesn't matter, this is altogether a different problem. This experiment is about theory, is there overunity in the coil itself. Certainly the overunity may not be enough for self-looping. But it is after we find a circuit that has overunity, a single circuit, It is a matter then to try to increase COP and find ways how to self loop, but as said. that's an entirely different problem altogether.

So you say that you did experiments where you measured COP > 1? Would you share the data? We need one such circuit that anyone else can replicate, just one, no one so far.

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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment (Read 94092 times)

ayeaye

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tinman

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itsu

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F6FLT

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F6FLT

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Void

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