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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 9777 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2018, 05:46:14 AM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2018, 02:29:12 PM »
Sorry, something was wrong with the svg file in the simple format, it should be the following.

Quote
<svg version="1.1"
xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
<path d="m 100,682.36218 80,90 80,50"
    style="fill:none;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:1"/>
<path d="m 260,1022.3622 70,-90.00002 60,-40 80,-20 120,-10 210,-10"
    style="fill:none;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:1"/>
<path d="m 100,1162.3622 100,-20 60,0"
    style="fill:none;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:1"/>
<path d="m 60,852.36218 790,0"
    style="fill:none;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:1"/>
<path d="m 60,1352.3622 790,0"
    style="fill:none;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:1"/>
<rect width="10" height="10" x="60" y="600"/>
<rect width="10" height="10" x="60" y="1400"/>
</svg>

So how to do it, use the Python scripts that i posted last in this thread. The content of the svg file in the simple format above, is for testing purposes only. In the real life, draw your traces with Inkscape, save the drawing in the normal svg format, somewhere where you can find it in the file manager. Then open that file with wordpad, and copy all the text from there, instead of copying it from here.

IMPORTANT When copying code from here, hold down the mouse button and slide the mouse down. But after going over the last line, don't go outside the quote box, before pressing ctrl-c. Then there will be no additional spaces before each line.

Open ideone at the following link.

https://ideone.com

Select Python, always before pasting, delete the first line in the source code box, what it has there, "# your code goes here", delete it.

Copy and paste the Python script that extracts data from Inkscape, to the source code box, and the content of the svg file here above, to the stdin box. Click on Run, what you should see is the following.

https://ideone.com/dhjcFA

Open the wordpad with no text in it, copy and paste the content of stdout from there, into wordpad.

Go back to the ideone main page (go back one page in the browser) and paste the Python script that does the power calculation, to the source code box. Change the values of the units in the code to the ones that you had, these should be the oscilloscope scales divided by 1000, in ns and mV, if they were any different. Change the resistor values there to the real ones that you had, in ohms. Change the frequency there to the real frequency used, in Hz.

Copy and paste the text that you copied into wordpad, to the stdin box. Click on Run and what you should see is the following, with the power in and power out values in stdout.

https://ideone.com/1tPuBc

I'm sorry for writing it so long, but this is important. I did everything above myself to check it, and it worked for me. Please say when something would not go as it should.

Ahh, install Inkscape, from the following link, for your os, what it is, windows, mac or linux.

https://inkscape.org/en/release/0.92.3

I posted here an online vector editor too, if you don't want to install anything in your computer. It has svg format, so should work the same. But Inkscape is much better for the purpose. You might like it, as it is also very good for any technical drawing.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2018, 03:33:53 PM »
Seems like a lot of trouble. In the old days we would simply trace the traces onto tracing paper, then cut them out with scissors and weigh the paper pieces on an analytical balance.

Something that is not going as it should is the transistor pinout.


Do you have a fake transistor? Or a bad transistor? Or something strange about the connection? Or do the datasheets apply to the wrong transistor?  I know in JTs one can often get NPN transistors to work "backwards" that is with C and E reversed. But here we are dealing with B being on the right (as all the data sheets I've found say it is) or in the middle as with your transistor (apparently).



Can you post a legible photo of the transistor you are using?


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2018, 03:33:53 PM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2018, 03:45:31 PM »
Seems like a lot of trouble. In the old days we would simply trace the traces onto tracing paper, then cut them out with scissors and weigh the paper pieces on an analytical balance.

Something that is not going as it should is the transistor pinout.


Do you have a fake transistor? Or a bad transistor? Or something strange about the connection? Or do the datasheets apply to the wrong transistor?  I know in JTs one can often get NPN transistors to work "backwards" that is with C and E reversed. But here we are dealing with B being on the right (as all the data sheets I've found say it is) or in the middle as with your transistor (apparently).



Can you post a legible photo of the transistor you are using?
Interesting when I was a school kid I first used a china graph pen cell from the art shop then a deacon dado pen came out and then some bright spark invented transfers
but since the  mid 80s it's been computers and paper tasers or special ink.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2018, 04:40:19 PM »
Seems like a lot of trouble. In the old days we would simply trace the traces onto tracing paper, then cut them out with scissors and weigh the paper pieces on an analytical balance.

In these days they could do that, today they use computer. This is a very imprecise method as well, as the weight of the paper is never exactly even, very difficult to precisely weigh it as well.

Then you likely had to make the oscilloscope to show the multiplication of two traces, then find the area to calculate power. In this case this is more complicated, the oscilloscope has to show two multiplications of two voltage values, and then they have to be divided by different resistor values, one has to be subtracted from the other, and only in the first (positive) part of the cycle. I don't know whether any oscilloscope can do that. If it cannot and it is a digital oscilloscope, waveforms data has to be downloaded from it, and still some code is necessary to calculate from this waveform data.

Maybe by using two analog multipliers, then the oscilloscope will show the output of both, and calculate the area of them both separately during the positive part. If the oscilloscope can calculate the areas of two traces. Maybe it can be done, though i wouldn't say it's simple. And today they rather make the electronics simpler by using software than doing the opposite.

But if you can figure out some simpler method that people with digital oscilloscopes can use, that would be great of course. I think you now know what should be done. Me with my analog oscilloscope have no really better way.

Ok, calculate the area of Vr2 * Vr3 during the first part in one measurement, then calculate the area of Vr3 * Vr3 during the first part in the second (separate) measurement, can it be done, like with Rigol? I don't exactly know what the digital oscilloscopes can do, as i don't have one.

Quote
Do you have a fake transistor? Or a bad transistor? Or something strange about the connection? Or do the datasheets apply to the wrong transistor?  I know in JTs one can often get NPN transistors to work "backwards" that is with C and E reversed. But here we are dealing with B being on the right (as all the data sheets I've found say it is) or in the middle as with your transistor (apparently).

I have a c945 transistor and the pinout appeared to be as i did show, and indeed i couldn't find any datasheet that did show c945 with that pinout, all were with the pinout that you referred to. I found the pinout by testing the transistor with a multimeter, and no, i didn't put C and E backwards, because the voltage drop on the emitter is greater than the voltage drop on collector. The transistor worked well too, as much as i saw.

Quote
Can you post a legible photo of the transistor you are using?

Yes i can, the photo is on the figure below. This was rather difficult thing to do though, i almost had to hold the flashlight between my teeth.


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2018, 04:40:19 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2018, 08:27:09 PM »
Ok, the figure below shows what powers there are in the LR circuit during the input part of the cycle, and what is the relation between these powers. This drawing was made with Inkscape :)


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2018, 09:53:23 PM »
Now it seems as though you are playing around with what is defined as "input" and "output".
What is the power supply in your circuit? It is the battery. Therefore the input power is the battery voltage times the current flowing into or out of the battery, corrected for the duty cycle. This can be measured with a current-viewing resistor in the negative supply line to the circuit.

It is also the case that the FG will be supplying some power to the circuit. It is for this reason that I prefer to work with circuits that are entirely self-contained, with any powered oscillator actually on-board and part of the circuit. After all, if a subsystem is necessary for a device to work, the power to that subsystem surely must be included in the input power to the total system.

What is the load in your circuit? Is it the power being dissipated in the two resistors? This is also straightforward to measure, by several methods. Chet (ramset) mentioned fixed-loss-to-ambient, but in this case the absolute power levels and the difference between in and out are so small that FLTA isn't going to be easy to do. But one may also simply look at the voltage drop across the load and the waveform and a little math and one may derive the power dissipation of the load.
I'm not sure that your method is properly measuring input and output power in this circuit.

In any case, should one need to operate mathematically on the data from a DSO, most of them can dump waveform data in CSV format that can be read and operated upon by just about any spreadsheet.

And the cut-and-weigh-it paper methodology worked well for many years before the advent of DSOs. Paper is a lot more uniform than you imagine, I think, and I could dust off the Mettler up there to prove it, but I won't.  I imagine that some of the calculations that eventually got Apollo astronauts to the moon were done that way. In fact I actually have one of the oscilloscopes that they did it with. (A Tektronix RM503 from the Blade Dynamics Laboratory at NASA Ames.)






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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2018, 09:53:23 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2018, 10:08:30 PM »
Since your transistor doesn't conform to the data sheet pinout, this is a problem. It could be a fake transistor, it could be mislabeled, it could be damaged in some strange way, or something else. Where did your transistor come from? Is it possible to get more from that source that have the same pinout as yours?
I have a sneaking feeling that the transistor is critical here. Or have you tried other transistor types and attained similar results? It would be nice to resolve this question.



Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2018, 10:48:43 PM »
Now it seems as though you are playing around with what is defined as "input" and "output".

I think we should first agree what are we talking about. As when we are talking about different things and even mix them together, then nothing will sure ever be clear. So when i below say that you are wrong, this doesn't mean that you are wrong about everything, this is just what i talked about and what my experiment was about.

One may talk about overunity in various systems, whole circuit, parts of the circuit, single components. And all these overunities are not one and the same at all, one is not the other.

My experiment was about overunity in the coil, and about overunity in the coil only. And this is the only thing that i have been talking in this thread all the time. This is the most important to understand, but you go like i were talking about water on mars or whatever.

Regarding measuring overunity in the coil, the input is the power consumed by the coil, which is at every moment of time the current going through the coil, multiplied by the voltage on the coil, when the power is supplied to the coil from the external power source. By all the Ohm's law. The output power of the coil is the power of the back-emf generated by the coil when no external power is supplied to the coil. Again at every moment of time it is the voltage on the coil multiplied by the current generated by the coil. Again by the Ohm's law.

Is that made clear?

Quote
What is the power supply in your circuit? It is the battery.

Right. Or it mat be a power adapter, anything that supplies power to the circuit.

Quote
Therefore the input power is the battery voltage times the current flowing into or out of the battery, corrected for the duty cycle. This can be measured with a current-viewing resistor in the negative supply line to the circuit.

Wrong, wrong conclusion, doesn't follow. The input power in our case is the power consumed by the coil. Now you may say how is that, batteries supply power and this is well known. Yes, but it is like one saying that it isn't raining, and the other saying that it is wrong, it is raining now in Alaska. In the other words, you put it like it were always right, every time in all contexts, no it isn't, this is a logical fallacy.

Quote
It is also the case that the FG will be supplying some power to the circuit. It is for this reason that I prefer to work with circuits that are entirely self-contained, with any powered oscillator actually on-board and part of the circuit. After all, if a subsystem is necessary for a device to work, the power to that subsystem surely must be included in the input power to the total system.

If you always want to measure overunity and power only in the entire circuit, then yes. But my experiment was not about that. And for the research purposes this is not proper at all, we are interested in a particular natural phenomenon, not how to make it to power a car, this is engineering and these are different things, my experiment was about research. It's like they do experiments in the particle accelerator and they should think how to make a power station that uses the quantum physics effects that they found. No they don't do that, they do the research, and if this were what they had to do then they couldn't do research.

Quote
What is the load in your circuit? Is it the power being dissipated in the two resistors?

No. It is the power generated by the coil when there is no outside power supplied to the coil, as i said.

Quote
I'm not sure that your method is properly measuring input and output power in this circuit.

Yes you are not sure that it is proper because it is not proper in your mind. Because you want to do something else.

Quote
In any case, should one need to operate mathematically on the data from a DSO, most of them can dump waveform data in CSV format that can be read and operated upon by just about any spreadsheet.

Yes, one can use spreadsheets too. Spreadsheets are not so good for extracting data though.

Anyway, if we don't agree to talk about the same thing, then all that we do here makes no sense. If one keeps talking about the fence and other about the gate of the fence, then inevitably this is an exercise of vanity.


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2018, 10:48:43 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2018, 12:22:18 AM »
Look, you can poke around inside of just about any circuit and find two measurements that aren't the same. And if you call the smaller one "input" and the larger one "output"... well then, COP overunity!
We are concerned with output power that exceeds _normal_ sources of input. We are providing the circuit with battery power. If it's extracting energy from the eleventh dimension by the bifilar coil, that's fine, that will show up in the _output_ measurement by  making it exceed the _battery_ supplied input power.

Quote
I'm really sorry that on the figure 3 below there is Arduino, not the signal generator. The experiment below was done using the Ne555 generator, but later i tried to have shorter pulses, so i changed things and now i have no device left, all is disassembled, but except the 555 generator, the circuit on that figure is exactly how it was during the experiment.
RULE NUMBER ONE of overunity research: If you have a device that produces OU, real or only measurements, DO NOT EVER TAKE IT APART. If you must take something apart, build another one and take _that_ one apart.


Now... the bad news is that I am unable to reproduce your scope traces. In fact the circuit behaves just as a conventional circuit analysis would predict: as an inverting amplifier, taking the 5 volt input pulses from the FG (in my case) and amplifying them to the 12 volt level of the supply. There is very little effect from connecting or disconnecting the coaxial bifilar coil. I even tried my own much higher inductance and capacitance true Tesla Bifilar Pancake coil. What you were looking at with your scope set to very high sensitivity I can't imagine.

I have also tried connecting the transistor "incorrectly" using different pinouts. No luck.
So we have to go way back to basics before we start talking about any of that other stuff. Like I said in the beginning, perfectly processed garbage is still garbage. I'm afraid that I have to have confidence in my setup and results -- which are basically, I am using the schematic you approved, the input parameters you've specified, and a coaxial coil. The only difference is that my coil is made from a different kind of wire than yours and is probably a bit shorter overall.  Unfortunately.... YOU TOOK YOUR CIRCUIT APART, so we can't do some simple comparisons and scoposcopy to see where the problem lies.  Perhaps you are simply operating with some kind of damaged transistor or something.

But thanks for a relatively entertaining afternoon, anyway.



ETA: Note that CH1 is AC coupled in the scopeshot below. This is because there is a large DC offset in the signal, as you can predict from looking at the schematic.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2018, 01:40:00 AM »
Look, you can poke around inside of just about any circuit and find two measurements that aren't the same. And if you call the smaller one "input" and the larger one "output"... well then, COP overunity!

No, again, oh no, i were not talking about whatever two measurements but measuring very well defined things, the coil's input and output power. And my experiment was only about measuring the overunity of the coil, or whether there is any. If you want to measure something else, this may be interesting for you, but not relevant at all, at least not for my research.

Make sure to measure the resistance between the oscilloscope ground and the circuit ground. I used a floating scope as i measured that there was no connection, but if there is, it can first show very weird things, but second it can damage your equipment. I think you know that, but that's a reminder like the map reader reminds things to the driver, one may always forget things.

Quote
There is very little effect from connecting or disconnecting the coaxial bifilar coil

This is very very weird, my oscilloscope traces showed clearly a typical voltage traces for a coil in channel 1. Your coil may have less inductance than mine, as i said mine was in effect two bifilar pancake coils in series, which together was 34 turns, but that it didn't show any exponential coil traces, that's very weird. Your channel 1 is zero, for whatever reason, there is nothing at all to see on your oscilloscope screen.

Quote
I have also tried connecting the transistor "incorrectly"

My transistor was connected correctly.

So far no useful results from you for any purpose, thank you for your effort though.

I also read the Rigol manual. It can multiply two channels yes. Then one can take manual measurements, which can then be written like to a spreadsheet and then do calculations, but this is rather a nuisance to do. More it cannot do, as it cannot do any analyze of the math trace, for that one has to select one of the real channels. I don't know what software comes with Rigol, but by what people tell, it seems that they can only save data from the serial interface. And no, this is not in the csv format, this is a series of bytes, each byte is for one sample, without a Python script i don't know how they can be read. I don't know though, there may be software that can convert it, but these people didn't know any, and one cannot search all life, something that is so easy to do with Python.

Depending on what Rigol you have, some can save csv data to usb stick yes.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:52:07 AM by ayeaye »

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2018, 01:40:00 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2018, 02:32:26 PM »
Tinsel, Ok, do it then, import the samples from the oscilloscope to a spreadsheet if you so prefer and do calculations in the spreadsheet. It is not so easy to work with 600 numbers for both channels on a spreadsheet, but do it if you so prefer. Or make the oscilloscope to show the multiplication of two channels, cut it out of paper and weight the paper if you so like, however you prefer to do it, but do it.

Tinsel, please understand what is the coil's input power and the coil's output power. These both have to do with the voltage on the coil and the current going through the coil. The coil's input power is positive, it consumes power from an external source, coil's output power is negative, it generates power that doesn't come from any external source.

You can simulate the coil's input and output power in a circuit simulator. And it certainly will show unity, not an arbitrary values as you say. Because induction is a very symmetric process, and by its official equations it always has unity, circuit simulator never shows overunity. And induction is a very symmetric process indeed, the only matter is whether there is some other process also, like creating charge locally, that doesn't have a Lenz effect back, that may make it asymmetric.

Voltage on the coil multiplied by current going through the coil, this is the coil's power at any moment of time. The power is positive when the coil consumes power, and negative when the coil generates power (back-emf). Is it so difficult to understand that one is never able to understand it?

The voltage on the coil Vl, and the current through the coil. Il, at any moment of time the power in the coil

Pl = Vl * Il

It completely freaks me out that so simple thing is not understood.


Online Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2018, 04:40:44 PM »
Voltage on the coil multiplied by current going through the coil, this is the coil's power at any moment of time. The power is positive when the coil consumes power, and negative when the coil generates power (back-emf). Is it so difficult to understand that one is never able to understand it?

The voltage on the coil Vl, and the current through the coil. Il, at any moment of time the power in the coil

Pl = Vl * Il

It completely freaks me out that so simple thing is not understood.

Hi ayeaye. Just dropped by this thread to see what was being discussed.
What you are saying above does not make sense. Except for the resistive losses in the wire
in a coil, coils do not consume power. You do not calculate power for coils like you are
suggesting here. In AC circuits, you would calculate the power being consumed by some real *load*
in the circuit (could be resistive losses in any components in the circuit or an actual external load),
and you must always take power factor into account when calculating or measuring power in AC circuits.
If you looking for over unity, you are concerned with input power versus output power across a load that is
consuming real power. 'Reactive power' has no bearing at all when trying to measure or calculate for over unity.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2018, 05:23:22 PM »
in a coil, coils do not consume power. You do not calculate power for coils like you are
suggesting here.

Oh yes they do. And at any moment of time the power is always calcuated in the same way, with everything. It doesn't matter where the power goes, to the losses in the coil's wire, or stored in the coil in some other way, this is how power is calculated. At any moment of time, and this is what matters, as i calculate energy for every small amount of time, and then add them up. Calculating power for some waveforms is different from that, as it doesn't calculate power at every moment of time, but for the whole waveform.

Unless you want me to learn wrongly from you, which i don't.


Offline partzman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2018, 09:30:31 PM »
FWIW, here is an energy test of a bifilar coil in a similar arrangement to yours but idealized for digital scope measurements and the schematic is attached below for probe orientation.  The Math(red) channel is used to integrate the instantaneous measurements with the result displayed in mean or average.

The first scope pix shows the input power to the entire circuit and is seen to be 2.15 watts.  Since we will be comparing differing time intervals, we need to convert this to energy which will be 2.15*4.36e-6 = 9.374uJ.  In this same pix we can also calculate the energy dissipated in R1 from the average current shown in CH4 which will be UR1 = (109.1e-3)^2*100*4.36e-6 = 5.118uJ.

The next pix shows the dissipation in R2 which is seen to be 750.8mw.  This is calculated by using the square of the instantaneous differential between the supply voltage and the voltage across R2 and dividing by 100.  Therefore the energy dissipated in R2 = 750.8e-3*4.36e-6 = 3.273uJ.

The last pix shows the power dissipation in R2 from the discharge of energy stored in L1/L2 and is seen to be 24.54mw.  Therefore, the energy is UR4 = 24.54e-3*31.56e-6 = .774uJ.

So, the total energy consumed by the entire circuit is 9.374uJ and the total energy produced or dissipated by the circuit is 5.118uJ + 3.273uJ + .774uJ = 9.165uJ for a COP = 9.165/9.374 = .978 neglecting resistive losses in L1/L2 and the mosfet.

This does not mean that bifilar windings can't produce excess energy, it just means this particular example does not appear to.

Regards,
Pm

 

 

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