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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 23509 times)

Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #330 on: December 24, 2018, 04:54:15 PM »


Quote
I did point out that measuring without the input transformer has its own problems as well. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Also, are you guys trying the test I mentioned to move the scope probe leads around when
doing your measurements to see if the phase difference shown on the scope shifts around when
the scope probe leads are moved to different positions? Ignore this check at your own peril. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Itsu, when you measure the input current with your current probe, if the current probe is attached
to the same scope that you are measuring the input voltage waveform with, then the scope
ground provides the common point of reference between channels for doing the phase measurement.
Would you agree? You wouldn't be able to do phase measurements if that were not the case.

Hi Void,

yes, the current probe is attached to its current controller which is attached to (in my case) CH4.
So yes , all probes have a common ground.

But the voltage probe with its ground lead forces that probe to "look" only to the signals (and phase)
between the probe tip and its ground (CH2 to ground = R2 + FG), while the current probe looks at the whole branch
it is in, so L1, R2 and FG (current probe placed between FG + and R2).

Below screenshot shows the difference in phase when i remove the CH2 ground from reference ground (white trace)
to just before R2 (blue trace), both compared to the current probe trace (green) where i trigger on.

It flips from -52° phase difference to (almost) 0°.

Itsu


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #330 on: December 24, 2018, 04:54:15 PM »

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #331 on: December 24, 2018, 05:18:53 PM »

But the voltage probe with its ground lead forces that probe to "look" only to the signals (and phase)
between the probe tip and its ground (CH2 to ground = R2 + FG), while the current probe looks at the whole branch
it is in, so L1, R2 and FG (current probe placed between FG + and R2).

Below screenshot shows the difference in phase when i remove the CH2 ground from reference ground (white trace)
to just before R2 (blue trace), both compared to the current probe trace (green) where i trigger on.

It flips from -52° phase difference to (almost) 0°.

Itsu

Hi Itsu. Sorry, I am not following you. You should not move the Ch2 ground from the common ground reference point for
all the probes to just before R2, as all probes must have the same ground reference point, so, I am not following what
you are trying to do/demonstrate there by moving the Ch2 ground. You would have a ground loop if you did that. Maybe
I am misunderstanding you.

I would be inclined to go with the current probe measurement and not use the CSR at the input (in this particular measurement arrangement),
but do try moving the scope probe leads around (both current and voltage probe leads) when doing these measurements to see if that impacts
the phase angle measurements. If it does, then the phase angle measurements for certain can't be trusted if you see that happening.


Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #332 on: December 24, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »

Void,

yes, as i said earlier, i am struggling for words to explain.

as long as i use only 1 probe (blue in this case), i can put its ground lead where ever i want.
I just want to show that by moving the ground lead of the CH2 blue probe, its phase flips from -52°
out of phase with the current probe (green) signal to IN phase with the current probe signal.

I otherwise cannot explain why by using a different measurement setup, my circuit COP halfs from COP=1
to COP=0.5

Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #332 on: December 24, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #333 on: December 24, 2018, 06:02:35 PM »
You are telling without knowing. That's not saying that anything provides OU.
I haven't not to know that.
"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof".
Euclid
This statement from a great thinker saves us from wasting time with those who talk nonsense while they have the burden of proof. Thanks a lot, Euclid!  ;D

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #334 on: December 24, 2018, 06:10:40 PM »
Void,

yes, as i said earlier, i am struggling for words to explain.

as long as i use only 1 probe (blue in this case), i can put its ground lead where ever i want.
I just want to show that by moving the ground lead of the CH2 blue probe, its phase flips from -52°
out of phase with the current probe (green) signal to IN phase with the current probe signal.

I otherwise cannot explain why by using a different measurement setup, my circuit COP halfs from COP=1
to COP=0.5

Itsu

Hi Itsu. I think I understand what you mean now. You are changing the ground reference point
for the scope measurement across the CSR when you do that, so not surprising that the measured phase
angle shifts relative to the current probe.

At any rate, I would be inclined to go with using your current probe and not use the CSR at the input in
that particular test arrangement. Have you tried my suggested check to move the scope probe leads around
 when doing these measurements to see if moving the scope probe leads (both current and voltage probe leads)
has any effect on your phase angle measurements? I have found this can sometimes be a major problem in this
type of setup with big coils at higher frequencies.

One way to possibly make the measurements more reliable in this type of setup is to place the test circuit with
coils inside a full metal enclosure (all sides enclosed), and just have connectors on the metal enclosure for connecting
the scope probes. The metal enclosure should be grounded to the common ground point for the whole test circuit.
This will help to stabilize the circuit against stray capacitances, and will help to contain the EM fields around the coils inside
the enclosure, but that is a lot of extra work. It might be necessary for testing with this circuit arrangement however, to get more
reliable results. There may be other factors affecting the measurements as well however, such as unaccounted for
capacitive coupling that is bypassing measurement points to some extent. 

P.S. There is another aspect to this that can significantly affect the efficiency measurement results.
The input transformer can act as a impedance changing transformer, depending on its winding ratio,
and changing the impedance differences between sections of the circuit can have a significant impact
on overall circuit efficiency. Whether impedances match closely or not between different sections of the circuit
can change the circuit efficiency considerably.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #334 on: December 24, 2018, 06:10:40 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #335 on: December 24, 2018, 09:26:25 PM »

Void,

well, my whole point was to show that the current probe data is stable and not moving while the blue voltage
probe data (phase) changes when changing the ground reference.

So to me this means that in this case/setup, the current probe is the most reliable.
Also backed up by the fact that when calculating Pin using this current probe data (amplitude AND phase)
the results are the same as with my earlier setup and data (COP=1)

Using the voltage probe data and especially the phase (0) data instead shows a halving of the COP to 0.5
which i find unbelievable.


Changing the positions of my probe leads does not influence the the amplitude nor the phase of the signals.
But i know what you mean as i have seen that before too.
The probes become part of the circuit and can have a dramatic effect on the presented data.

Itsu

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #336 on: December 24, 2018, 10:37:49 PM »
Hi Itsu. Yes, sounds within reason to me that the efficiency in such a circuit if
tuned to the right frequency range could give a high efficiency of close to 100%.
All the best.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #336 on: December 24, 2018, 10:37:49 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #337 on: December 25, 2018, 04:31:12 AM »
Brad,

I rather think that in the multiple probe setup (1st screenshot), the blue CH2 is somehow "forced" to join up
with the phase of CH1 yellow due to the same ground points.


Itsu

Itsu

I still have a hard time believing that CH1 and CH2 should not be in phase.
Unless your CSR is some what inductive,CH1 and CH2s phase should always line up.
Simply remove CH2s ground lead,and leave it floating. Your scope shares a common ground-dose it not?. If so,then removing CH2s ground lead,and just leave it lying on the bench, should make no difference to the phase angle between CH1 and CH2.

If you see no change in phase angle between CH1 and CH2 when you remove CH2s ground lead,then your current probe is not showing you correct results.

If the phase angle between CH1 and CH2 dose change when you remove CH2s ground lead,then you have a problem with one of your scope probes or leads,as the phase angle should not change when removing one of the ground clip leads--as long as 1 remains clipped to the ground reference point.
It may also be that your CSR is some what inductive.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #338 on: December 25, 2018, 06:29:16 AM »
Itsu

I have carried out the below tests,and i cannot get CH1s and CH2s phase to alter,regardless of frequency--until up around 11MHz,when something odd happens.

I am using my tape wound bifi coil--you may have seen it in previous experiments.
Schematic below,along with scope shots at each frequency.
I also removed CH2s ground lead,and carried out the tests again--no difference found.

Chanel colors as in schematic,along with resistor values as used.
Resistors are 100 watt non inductive.

Im not going to calculate results for tests 1-5,but only for test 6 at 11MHz

First you will note in test 6 that ch2s voltage is leading ch1s voltage--odd  ???
But the fun begins when we calculate our power in and out  :o

P/in is CH1 x (Ch1-CH2)/2
P/in =49.8mW

P/out is 6.59vrms over 10 ohms
P/out=4342.81 mW  :o

So my COP in this test is 8720.48%

Obviously i have done something wrong,and i am attempting to find that mistake now.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #338 on: December 25, 2018, 06:29:16 AM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #339 on: December 25, 2018, 06:36:24 AM »
For the diagram that was provided with the CSR in the 'positive' wire of the function generator,
that is incorrect for trying to measure the phase angle of Iin. You are trying to measure the phase
angle across both the function generator and the CSR in series when doing it that way. It is incorrect.
You can't measure the phase angle between the voltage and current waveforms that way. If you tried that
same CSR and ground placement  arrangement with a regular transformer (with the primary having both wires connected),
you would also get incorrect phase angle measurement results. If you want to place the CSR there, I believe you would
have to make the common ground point for all the probe grounds right at the 'positive' terminal of the function generator,
before the CSR.


Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #340 on: December 25, 2018, 07:43:00 AM »
For the diagram that was provided with the CSR in the 'positive' wire of the function generator,
that is incorrect for trying to measure the phase angle of Iin. You are trying to measure the phase
angle across both the function generator and the CSR in series when doing it that way. It is incorrect.
You can't measure the phase angle between the voltage and current waveforms that way. If you tried that
same CSR and ground placement  arrangement with a regular transformer (with the primary having both wires connected),
you would also get incorrect phase angle measurement results. If you want to place the CSR there, I believe you would
have to make the common ground point for all the probe grounds right at the 'positive' terminal of the function generator,
before the CSR.

Void

I see no problem here.
Ch1 is measuring the voltage across the function generator.
CH2 is also measuring the voltage across the function generator,minus the voltage drop across a pure resistance(the CSR).
All ground leads are connected at one point,and that is at the ground lead of the function generator.

As i said,i see no problem with the circuit provided,or any of the measuring points.

I have found the error in my previous result's.
Some dope left CH3s chanel multiplication at 2x from some previous testing,where the CVR was .5 ohms.
None the less,i am still over a COP of 300%  :o




So CH1 shows us our voltage input value,and CH2 shows us the voltage drop across our CSR,which also gives us our current value. You then multiply the voltage and current to get P/in.


Brad

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #340 on: December 25, 2018, 07:43:00 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #341 on: December 25, 2018, 08:10:38 AM »
I haven't not to know that.
"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof".
Euclid
This statement from a great thinker saves us from wasting time with those who talk nonsense while they have the burden of proof. Thanks a lot, Euclid!  ;D

Yes indeed. I used that about you. You rejected the Tesla's bifilar pancake coil without reason, so i could simply ignore what you say without reason. Your thinking works in finding your own faults, that's good. Thanks indeed, Euclid!


Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #342 on: December 25, 2018, 11:16:16 AM »
Itsu

I still have a hard time believing that CH1 and CH2 should not be in phase.
Unless your CSR is some what inductive,CH1 and CH2s phase should always line up.
Simply remove CH2s ground lead,and leave it floating. Your scope shares a common ground-dose it not?. If so,then removing CH2s ground lead,and just leave it lying on the bench, should make no difference to the phase angle between CH1 and CH2.

If you see no change in phase angle between CH1 and CH2 when you remove CH2s ground lead,then your current probe is not showing you correct results.

If the phase angle between CH1 and CH2 dose change when you remove CH2s ground lead,then you have a problem with one of your scope probes or leads,as the phase angle should not change when removing one of the ground clip leads--as long as 1 remains clipped to the ground reference point.
It may also be that your CSR is some what inductive.


Brad

Brad,

thanks for doing these tests.

But, of course CH1 and CH2 should be in phase, we are measuring across a (in my case induction free!) resistor.
By putting the both CH1 and CH2 probes across the FG and csr + FG you force them to ONLY measure resistance, so 0° phases.

I do not imply anything else.

But do you think the voltage and current across the whole input branch (FG, csr, L1) should also be pure resistive?
I don't think so, and that is (i think) what my current probe is measuring, the current compared to FG voltage
across the whole input branch.


When i remove CH2 ground from the common ground point, nothing happens as, like you say my scope has all probes
grounds connected together.

It only changes phases (compared to my current scope) when changing the CH2 ground from common ground point to just
before csr (R2) where also the current probe is, but of course you have to remove the other probes (grounds) as
otherwise you would short out the FG.

In my opinion, you measure/calculate input power only across the FG / csr (which show you phase 0°)
instead of the whole input branch (including L1) which MUST lead to a phase shift due to its inductive/capacitive
nature, so you are missing the Cos phi part in your calculation (try it, use -65 to -80% Cos Phi, you will be close to COP=1)
 
Any COP of 8000%  or even 300% must be wrong, common sense dictates this.


Anyway, i will leave it at this as i seem to be unable to get across what i see / think.


Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 02:20:11 PM by itsu »

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #343 on: December 25, 2018, 04:19:15 PM »
Brad,

thanks for doing these tests.

But, of course CH1 and CH2 should be in phase, we are measuring across a (in my case induction free!) resistor.
By putting the both CH1 and CH2 probes across the FG and csr + FG you force them to ONLY measure resistance, so 0° phases.

I do not imply anything else.

But do you think the voltage and current across the whole input branch (FG, csr, L1) should also be pure resistive?
I don't think so, and that is (i think) what my current probe is measuring, the current compared to FG voltage
across the whole input branch.


When i remove CH2 ground from the common ground point, nothing happens as, like you say my scope has all probes
grounds connected together.

It only changes phases (compared to my current scope) when changing the CH2 ground from common ground point to just
before csr (R2) where also the current probe is, but of course you have to remove the other probes (grounds) as
otherwise you would short out the FG.

In my opinion, you measure/calculate input power only across the FG / csr (which show you phase 0°)
instead of the whole input branch (including L1) which MUST lead to a phase shift due to its inductive/capacitive
nature, so you are missing the Cos phi part in your calculation (try it, use -65 to -80% Cos Phi, you will be close to COP=1)
 
Any COP of 8000%  or even 300% must be wrong, common sense dictates this.


Anyway, i will leave it at this as i seem to be unable to get across what i see / think.


Regards Itsu

Ok,i have to keep reminding myself that you have a battery operated or isolated FG--as i remember.

But lets look at the circuit below,where the FG shares a common ground with the scope.
We will also take voltage& current phase angle into account-->power factor.
Also we will look at the bifi coil,and how it may be acting.

First,the bifi coil.
Depending on both the inductance and capacitance value of the coil,at some point in frequency,the inductance will be canceled out by the capacitance,and the coil will act as a pure resistance.
This would result in a voltage and current phase angle of 0

Power factor.
When i calculate power ,i calculate for a power factor of 1.
This gives us a maximum real power value--when the voltage and current are in phase.
Once voltage and current become out of phase,the power factor drops,and the real power value is less.
So i am calculating for a maximum input power-->the actual value can only be less.

Now the circuit.

When we look at the circuit and scope probe placement's,we see the following.
CH1 is measuring the voltage across the FG--there is no doubt about that
CH2 is measuring the voltage across the FG and a pure resistance--there is no doubt about that.
CH1 and CH2 should always be in phase(or extremely close to)
If we subtract CH2s voltage from CH1s voltage,we get the voltage drop across our CSR--there is no doubt about that. From this we can calculate our current value,and we already know CH1 is our voltage value.

As our current from the FG must flow through the CSR ,we can now calculate P/in
We now calculate for maximum power,where the phase angle between voltage and current is 0

Also when i use the scope for flea fart power measurements at high frequencies,i switch the probes over to 10x,and then set my scope channels to 10x as well,so as the actual values are still correct. This then eliminates almost all influences the scope probes and grounds have on the circuit values.

Now,you are worried about the phase angle between voltage and current ?
Well let me throw a spanner into the works here  :D

Lets look at what i was working on today.
I wound a new coil--nothing special.
It is just a normal bifi coil,where both wires were wound onto the former at the same time--bedini style. The coil is about 12mm wide,and 50mm in diameter. On either side of the coil,i glued a 10mm x 25mm ceramic magnet,so as like poles were facing each other.

While sweeping the frequency,this happened--see below scope shot.

At a certain frequency,I now have 0 volts across my CSR (R2)  :o , but i have 2.25 volts across the load resistor (R1)

So my P/out is 2.25v across 10 ohms =506mW
But what is my P/in if there is no voltage drop across the CSR ?

The other thing to think about is-my FG can only deliver a maximum of 162mA of current,yet we have 225mA flowing through R1,and the transformer has a winding ratio of 1:1
And how do we have 225mA flowing through R1,and nothing through the CSR  ???

I even used just CH1 to measure each value,with CH2 and CH3 disconnected from the circuit,and all were correct--no change.

So i do agree that something is amiss with this setup,but what is going on here?
Perhaps F6FLT can shed some light on this?.


Brad

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #344 on: December 25, 2018, 05:48:15 PM »
...You rejected the Tesla's bifilar pancake coil without reason, so i could simply ignore what you say without reason...

I don't reject Tesla's bifilar pancake coil. Proof: I made one and tested it!
And you? Show us what you realize instead of telling digressions or absurd lies against me.

It turned out that everything in my coil was classically explained and could even be easily modeled with LTspice.
Other experimenters note abnormal results, but it is clear that the measurement is difficult and there are possible experimental biases that have not yet be eliminated. So there is no OU in Tesla's coils, according to Tesla himself who has never mentioned OU in its patent 512340, and until proven otherwise.

 

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