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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 35177 times)

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #315 on: December 23, 2018, 04:09:20 PM »
...
The bottom line is experienced OU experimenters know the importance of trying a self-loop any circuit setup that
you think might be showing OU.
...
I agree. It's the only way to prove OU and generally it is where we understand our previous mistakes :D.
The measurements are just a means to know if our matter is enough convincing to lead us to build a possible "self-runner".

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #315 on: December 23, 2018, 04:09:20 PM »

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #316 on: December 23, 2018, 04:10:50 PM »
I agree. It's the only way to prove OU and generally it is where we understand our previous mistakes :D.
The measurements are just a means to know if our matter is enough convincing to lead us to build a possible "self-runner".

Agreed. :)

Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #317 on: December 23, 2018, 04:23:52 PM »
I had anticipated this difficulty. To remove it, a differential measurement could be the solution. On my old Tektronix I could choose to display channel A-B. I don't know if it's still possible with modern scopes as yours (or my Siglent, not yet searched for that).


If i do a differential measurement across R2 using CH2 blue and CH4 green, and use the Math to substract them, i get the below screenshot.

It shows that CH1 yellow, CH2 blue and CH4 green are all of the same phase and the Math calculates the difference to be 45mA (like the current probe before).

But i have still my doubts about the phase compared to CH1 yellow, i still think it should be offset about 62° like seen before.


Itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #317 on: December 23, 2018, 04:23:52 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #318 on: December 23, 2018, 04:27:30 PM »
I agree. It's the only way to prove OU and generally it is where we understand our previous mistakes :D.
The measurements are just a means to know if our matter is enough convincing to lead us to build a possible "self-runner".

I strongly disagree, self-looping is not a way to prove OU at all.

All the discussion of the immense difficulties of measurement seems to be to arrive to that conclusion, a panacea to avoid all difficulties and get all easily.

All just about measuring a circuit that is quite simple and even not that difficult to measure.

No, there are no miracle solutions, there are not. One cannot escape accurate and careful measurements for doing research, cannot replace them with anything. There is no way, who say there are, want to avoid research.

Replace it with talk maybe, it is easy to talk when there is no research and no data to base the talk on, all is just conjectures. Who want to write books, sure love self-looping. Like one can talk endlessly whether the looping goes on clockwise, or counter-clockwise ;)

I don't expect one to agree, because as i already showed, not strong in analytical thinking. If not learned meanwhile.


Offline partzman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #319 on: December 23, 2018, 06:13:07 PM »
Time is difficult to find at the moment due to the holidays but here is some input in regards to the many comments I see.  I have worked with these types of bifilar circuits for the past 4 years and in fact not just bifilar (simplest form) but also trifilar, quadfiliar, and pentafilar.  Each one has it's own unique characteristics and many are counter-intuitive.

Regarding my post #292 and the varying COPs, please look at the aberrations in the CSR voltage waveform on CH4(grn) that cross the zero line.  Now calculate the sensitivity of the phase measurement based on 5M points across the 2us screen window and compute the resolution of the measurement over 360 degrees of the 685ns cycle period.  If one were to look at a CSV file of the phase measurement, these numbers would be all over the place due to these aberrations.  However, the integration of the samples taken with the same sample rate on CH1 and CH4 by the Math channel function are more absolute and more accurate IMO due to averaging.

Regarding the method of ground connections, please see the attached schematic that show the ground method I use on all these tests with or without any isolation transformer.  There is only one probe ground shield connected to this point (CH4) with all other higher voltage probes left with no ground lead connection.  This prevents ground looping into the more sensitive CH4 measurement by induction via the outer shields.  One must also have an understanding of the inner grounding scheme in the particular brand of scope being used.  They are not as you might assume as I found out from Tektronix on my MDO.

Looping!  No offense, but I really have to sometimes chuckle at the comments I see.  Oh I agree that looping is the ultimate proof of OU in any device, but if anyone reading this thread can provide or come up with a scheme to loop this particular device, we'll partner in the final product to serve mankind.  Certain types of circuit typologies are difficult to loop and this is one of them IMO so be my guest! 

Sometimes looping isn't required for proof however.  An example is negative input power measurement.  If this is encountered then the device should self oscillate under the proper conditions.

Regards,
Pm

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #319 on: December 23, 2018, 06:13:07 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #320 on: December 23, 2018, 11:08:03 PM »
I strongly disagree, self-looping is not a way to prove OU at all.
...
Self-looping is not sufficient but it's necessary. This is my minimum requirement when people talk to me about OU. But you do what you want.

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #321 on: December 23, 2018, 11:57:47 PM »
Brad,

i don't think so, when using ONLY the current probe and ONE voltage probe across the csr, the  both show the
SAME amplitude AND phase, no lagging behind, see 2th screenshot above.

I rather think that in the multiple probe setup (1st screenshot), the blue CH2 is somehow "forced" to join up
with the phase of CH1 yellow due to the same ground points.


I would rather "believe" the current probe here then the voltage probe.

Itsu

As CH1 and CH2 remain in phase with or without the current probe,and the fact that you are measuring across a pure resistance (your CSR),then i would say that CH2 is reading correctly,and not being forced to lign up with CH1s phase.
This is also proven when you use just CH1 and the current probe,and once again the phases line up.
So yes,the phase angle across the CSR should be 0,but your current probe shows otherwise when used in conjunction with both CH1 and CH2,but shows correctly when CH2 is removed--is that correct?.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #321 on: December 23, 2018, 11:57:47 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #322 on: December 24, 2018, 12:03:58 AM »

If i do a differential measurement across R2 using CH2 blue and CH4 green, and use the Math to substract them, i get the below screenshot.

It shows that CH1 yellow, CH2 blue and CH4 green are all of the same phase and the Math calculates the difference to be 45mA (like the current probe before).

But i have still my doubts about the phase compared to CH1 yellow, i still think it should be offset about 62° like seen before.


Itsu

Regardless of anything that is happening either side of the CSR,the waveforms on either side of the CSR should always be in phase,as you are measuring a voltage drop across a pure resistance.

So what ever you see on one side of the CSR,you will see on the other side,but where the amplitude is either higher or lower.


Brad

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #323 on: December 24, 2018, 07:17:13 AM »
This is my minimum requirement when people talk to me about OU. But you do what you want.

Of course i have my own requirements, and i don't care what you say.

It's like several people here who want to replace the problem with something else, to make sure that the result will be zero.

Teaching you analytical thinking. People in Japan believed that there lived mystical creatures, who had bowl on their head. This bowl was necessary for them, because it gathered water, and water gave them power. So people told, when you meet such creatures, bow deeply to them. Then the creatures will also bow to you, the water from their bowls will flow away, and they have no power any more.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #323 on: December 24, 2018, 07:17:13 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #324 on: December 24, 2018, 09:08:44 AM »
I am in trouble in that, i cannot really explain how these alternative uses of the bifilar pancake coil might provide overunity, other than the original Tesla design. The only thing was that TinselKoala experiment that claimed 2.9 overunity. Now when that appears nothing, i don't see why to even consider it any more. Go back to where we began, the Tesla's original design, as the claim that something else may provide better results, appeared to be false.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #325 on: December 24, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »
As CH1 and CH2 remain in phase with or without the current probe,and the fact that you are measuring across a pure resistance (your CSR),then i would say that CH2 is reading correctly,and not being forced to lign up with CH1s phase.
This is also proven when you use just CH1 and the current probe,and once again the phases line up.
...
I agree 100%.
A measurement problem with CH1-CH2 would only occur when the difference is small compared to each value. It is easy to measure 1mV ac, but it is not easy to measure 1mV when it is the difference between 1KV and 1.000001 KV  :). That's why I suggested a differential measure, but I'm not really sure it's necessary here.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #325 on: December 24, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #326 on: December 24, 2018, 10:59:08 AM »
I am in trouble in that, i cannot really explain how these alternative uses of the bifilar pancake coil might provide overunity, other than the original Tesla design.

The original Tesla design didn't provide OU.

Quote
The only thing was that TinselKoala experiment that claimed 2.9 overunity.

Only the measurement showed an overunity of 2.9 but TK never claimed OU, the measurement has to be verified. If confirmed, OU must be checked by looping the device (which would be quite easy).



Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #327 on: December 24, 2018, 11:00:01 AM »


Hi Brad,

Quote
As CH1 and CH2 remain in phase with or without the current probe,and the fact that you are measuring across a
pure resistance (your CSR),then i would say that CH2 is reading correctly,and not being forced to lign up with
CH1s phase.

Well, yes, i agree, when looking from he ground point of view , and being measuring a resistor, the phases (CH1
voltage, CH2 current) should line up, but the current probe is not grounded, so has no reference point to measure from that ground point.
I think it measures the (true) phase as seen in the whole primary circuit, not only across the csr like CH2.
I struggle for words here to explain  :o



Quote
This is also proven when you use just CH1 and the current probe,and once again the phases line up.

I use CH2 (current) only with the current probe, then the both current phases line up.


Quote
So yes,the phase angle across the CSR should be 0,but your current probe shows otherwise when used in conjunction
with both CH1 and CH2,but shows correctly when CH2 is removed--is that correct?.

Almost, "it shows correctly when CH1 and CH3 (only CH2 present ACROSS CSR) is removed".


Itsu
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 04:12:00 PM by itsu »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #328 on: December 24, 2018, 11:50:58 AM »
The original Tesla design didn't provide OU.

You are telling without knowing. That's not saying that anything provides OU.


Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #329 on: December 24, 2018, 04:18:38 PM »
I did point out that measuring without the input transformer has its own problems as well. :)
Also, are you guys trying the test I mentioned to move the scope probe leads around when
doing your measurements to see if the phase difference shown on the scope shifts around when
the scope probe leads are moved to different positions? Ignore this check at your own peril. ;)

Itsu, when you measure the input current with your current probe, if the current probe is attached
to the same scope that you are measuring the input voltage waveform with, then the scope
ground provides the common point of reference between channels for doing the phase measurement.
Would you agree? You wouldn't be able to do phase measurements if that were not the case.


 

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