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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 40791 times)

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #300 on: December 23, 2018, 05:11:55 AM »
OK,how easy is OU to achieve ?
Easy
First take your bifi coil.
Set up as circuit below--secondary open.
Crank FG up until more power is being returned to the FG by the bifi coil,than the FG is delivering. :D
First scope shot at 1Mhz
Second at 9Mhz-->OU  ::). I mean,the calculated power has gone negative   :D
Brad

:)  Hi Brad. As I mentioned earlier, I have also seen conditions where my scope measures phase shifts > 90 degrees
between the input voltage and the input current, but chances are very high of course that the scope is not telling the truth.  ;D
Phase measurements with this type of circuit at higher frequencies like that can be not very reliable at all. One way to check for
this is if you move the leads for the scope probes all around does the phase measurements shift around? If so, then your scope
is not making reliable measurements. :) Either way, I think the chances are very high your scope is not reading at all correctly. :)


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #300 on: December 23, 2018, 05:11:55 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #301 on: December 23, 2018, 06:45:49 AM »
:)  Hi Brad. As I mentioned earlier, I have also seen conditions where my scope measures phase shifts > 90 degrees
between the input voltage and the input current, but chances are very high of course that the scope is not telling the truth.  ;D
Phase measurements with this type of circuit at higher frequencies like that can be not very reliable at all. One way to check for
this is if you move the leads for the scope probes all around does the phase measurements shift around? If so, then your scope
is not making reliable measurements. :) Either way, I think the chances are very high your scope is not reading at all correctly. :)

The very reason i carried out the test  ;)
To show that in some cases,the scope will not show you what is actually going on.

As you can see in the scope shots i posted,any degree of phase shift is quite easy to achieve.
You will also note the voltage and current waveforms show very little offset,and are quite clean and stable,but the math trace is completely negative at 9MHZ.

Between 3 and 9MHZ,the circuit has a negative impedance value.
In the theoretical world,this would mean that the coil/inductor has become the source,and the FG has become the synk.
But in the real world,we are taught that this cannot be,and so there is an error some where.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #302 on: December 23, 2018, 06:52:49 AM »
Some details on the measurement method.

The initial method with the ground connected to the other R2 terminal is not bad in itself. We just have to understand what we're doing. The R2 resistor is not part of the device. Normally R2=0 and the output power Pout is only CH3²/R1. The input power is P=CH1*I where I is the input current.

Now how do you know the input current? This is where R2 is added, between the ground and the rest of the circuit. The voltage measured at the R2 terminals give us the current through the virtue of I=U/R, and this voltage is assumed to be negligible, without affecting operation.

BUT R2 must be very small so as not to disturb the setup. In general 1 Ω is sufficient, but here R2 is not at all negligible either in comparison to R1 (R2 represents 5% of R1), or in comparison to the resistance of the coils.  So either we take R2 smaller for example 0.1 Ω, or we measure as I indicated, R2 is then considered as part of the device and not just part of the measurement process, and we also take into account the power dissipated there.  Pout = CH3²/R1 + CH2²/R2.

If we keep the initial measurement process, then we can expect a 5% error on the measurement, which perfectly explains the COP of 1.061 measured by Itsu.
However, this does not explain at all the COP of nearly 3 measured by TK, which was well over 5%. If TK applied my correction, it shouldn't change much the result. So there is an error elsewhere in the TK measurement, or it is OU.

F6FLT

This still will not work if the FG and scope the guys are using share a common ground--which i believe they do.

You no longer have an isolated transformer,and will not obtain accurate power measurements the way you have depicted,as R2s voltage will not represent the true value of current flow,due to one end being coupled to the primary of the isolation transformer,and the other end coupled to !what is! the ground of the secondary of the isolation transformer.

Please see below diagram with FG and scope common ground added.


Brad

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #302 on: December 23, 2018, 06:52:49 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #303 on: December 23, 2018, 07:27:57 AM »
I don't see the scope doing anything wrong at 9 MHz, the waveforms are as they should for power to be negative. And when the power is negative, then indeed the coil generates power. This is nothing extraordinary, coil always generates power at back-emf, and the power trace has a negative part. Only in that case almost all of it is negative.

Can someone replicate? Itsu?

When the power is like 90% negative at 9 MHz, then it sure becomes negative at much lower frequency. The scopes should be well capable of it.

This last circuit proposed by Tinman, on the figure below, is the best i think, because it is the simplest, and easiest to measure. Thus the least measuring errors.

Maybe can be tried with different bifilar coils, coaxial? Not sure, these bifilar pancake coils made of thin magnet wire between cd-s or what, seem to work the best

« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 10:04:32 AM by ayeaye »

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #304 on: December 23, 2018, 11:42:55 AM »
F6FLT

This still will not work if the FG and scope the guys are using share a common ground--which i believe they do.

You no longer have an isolated transformer,and will not obtain accurate power measurements the way you have depicted,as R2s voltage will not represent the true value of current flow,due to one end being coupled to the primary of the isolation transformer,and the other end coupled to !what is! the ground of the secondary of the isolation transformer.

Please see below diagram with FG and scope common ground added.


Brad

I agree with you Brad. There is a ground problem if the scope and FG are not floating and share a common ground, which is likely.
 
Another problem is the  transformer itself. If it is made with two wires wound together, there is a strong capacitive coupling and the so-called "isolation transformer" is in fact a near all-pass circuit.
Even if it is made of two well separated coils, for instance coils diametrically separated on opposite sides of a tore core, the primary/secondary capacity is still on the order of pF to tens of pF, which is too much at Mhz frequencies.

Moreover the transformer adds possible concerns, for example making the FG appearing with a complex impedance.

I therefore propose the following simplified version, see picture.

No isolation transformer.
Only one ground.
The output power is easy and direct to obtain.
The input power is a little more difficult because the input current measurement is now made on the hot side of the coil. Nevertheless, I think there will be far less experimental bias than before.

If a COP>1 is always obtained, then it becomes very interesting. I hope Parzman and Itsu will try again with this new configuration.

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #304 on: December 23, 2018, 11:42:55 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #305 on: December 23, 2018, 12:30:25 PM »
I agree with you Brad. There is a ground problem if the scope and FG are not floating and share a common ground, which is likely.
 
Another problem is the  transformer itself. If it is made with two wires wound together, there is a strong capacitive coupling and the so-called "isolation transformer" is in fact a near all-pass circuit.
Even if it is made of two well separated coils, for instance coils diametrically separated on opposite sides of a tore core, the primary/secondary capacity is still on the order of pF to tens of pF, which is too much at Mhz frequencies.

Moreover the transformer adds possible concerns, for example making the FG appearing with a complex impedance.

I therefore propose the following simplified version, see picture.

No isolation transformer.
Only one ground.
The output power is easy and direct to obtain.
The input power is a little more difficult because the input current measurement is now made on the hot side of the coil. Nevertheless, I think there will be far less experimental bias than before.

If a COP>1 is always obtained, then it becomes very interesting. I hope Parzman and Itsu will try again with this new configuration.

Yes,that test circuit will give you accurate results.
I did miss the capacitive coupling problem on the isolation transformer though--good pickup there.


Brad

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #306 on: December 23, 2018, 01:26:13 PM »
I therefore propose the following simplified version, see picture.
No isolation transformer.

Hi F6FLT. Trying to measure current accurately across a CSR when one end of the transmit coil is
not connected to anything I have found from experience has questionable reliability as well. You need the isolation transformer
to improve measurements, IMO, but significant capacitive coupling between coil windings on all transformers is always
there at higher frequencies, so that always impacts measurements. The two pancake coils are coupling a fair bit
by capacitive coupling in this arrangement as well, IMO.

This is why I have been pointing out that I think it is a very good idea to look for ways to double check measurements
on these types of circuits (should do this on all measurements in 'OU' circuit testing really), and I don't really ever trust in
the accuracy of these type of measurements especially when COP > 1 is being indicated. Chances are measurements are not telling the truth. :)

At any rate, Brad has emphasized what I had pointed out as well, that the phase measurements on scopes on
these type of circuits at higher frequencies can be unreliable. I would suggest people try moving their scope probe leads
all around after connecting up their scope probes when the circuit is being driven/powered, and if you see the phase shift
amount on the scope between waveforms changing, then you obviously can't trust the phase shift you are measuring.
Brad, did you try moving the scope probe leads around when you were measuring the phase shift > 90 degrees?

If someone thinks they are measuring a COP of about 2 or higher, then they should have enough 'excess energy' in the circuit to
self loop. If it fails miserably when you try to self loop the circuit, then you are probably looking at measurement error.  ;D
Self looping is the great equalizer. An OU experimenter's essential reality check.  Omit this at your own peril. :D


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #306 on: December 23, 2018, 01:26:13 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #307 on: December 23, 2018, 02:04:17 PM »
Trying to measure current accurately across a CSR when one end of the transmit coil is not connected to anything I have found from experience has questionable reliability as well.

No, one end of the input winding not connected does not decrease reliability. Coil is what we measure. It sure has a strong capacitive coupling. When it is all capacitive, then there is no voltage on R1 at all, all the bifilar coil acts just as a capacitor. Sure no overunity in that case. This is why it is interesting and important to measure voltage separately on R1. When some current goes through the output winding, then the current in the circuit is caused both by the capacitive coupling and that current.

"You need the isolation transformer to improve measurements,"

No, isolation transformer has nothing to do with the capacitive coupling in the bifilar coil. As F6FLT pointed out, when both the oscilloscope and the function generator have a common ground, there is no need for isolation transformer, and removing that transformer greatly improves the measurement accuracy, as one more part of the circuit is removed that can be a source of errors.

Now the possible cause of overunity, the way i guess. The current induced in the secondary winding fills the capacitance, the current doesn't all go through all the winding, thus might not have a full Lenz effect, thus more current can be induced that fills the capacitance, than provided by the Faraday's law.

"Self looping is the great equalizer. An OU experimenter's essential reality check.  Omit this at your own peril."

No, not at all, quite the opposite. This self-looping will be just adding more components to the circuit that all are possible causes of errors. And self-looping doesn't really prove overunity, self-looping can occur also for other reasons than overunity. Self-looping may not last long, for how long should it last to show overunity? This just makes the experiment ambiguous instead of doing what should be done, measuring overunity, that is the input and output power of the part of the circuit that is considered to possibly have overunity. Self-looping is a very different task, it is engineering and not research. It can be done after the research shows a result of overunity that may be enough for self-running. But it's engineering not research.

I don't see no reason why the input and output power of that circuit cannot be accurately measured, having a good and well calibrated oscilloscope. The probes may give more error with higher frequency yes, thus swapping probes may slightly change the results and it may be done to estimate error. But some 1.5 MHz is not that great frequency for a good oscilloscope, including its probes, and it can be measured with sufficient accuracy.

That the measurements are complicated and must be carefully made, there is no doubt though.


Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #308 on: December 23, 2018, 02:19:59 PM »
I don't see no reason why the input and output power of that circuit cannot be accurately measured, having a good and well calibrated oscilloscope.

I have mentioned some reasons why measurements on these types of circuits can be very tricky,
and can easily mislead a person if they are not very careful. Taking the attitude of being willing to question and
closely examine all measurements, especially when something out of the ordinary is measured, and in such a case try
to find ways to double check measurement results, is a very good idea IMO. This is my point of view based on lots of
experience doing measurements in these types of circuits. Good luck to all with your measurements. May you be fooled
no more than half of the time. :)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #308 on: December 23, 2018, 02:19:59 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #309 on: December 23, 2018, 02:54:50 PM »

I was using a battery operated (so ground isolated) FG all the time as mentioned before.
I used also an isolation transformer to be compatible with TK his setup.


Anyway, latest setup from F6FLT:

Still using the 2th bifilar coil.

Math function cannot be used in this setup (1 math function at a time only for my scope).

Screenshot 1 shows the values:

CH1 = 1.786V
CH2 = 1.750V
CH3 = 868.8mV
CH4 = 44.4mA   (i added the current probe value (right before R2 in the diagram) to show the difficulty to correctly
                           measure the voltage (current) across R2 (CH1 - CH2) in this setup)

Difference between CH1 and CH2 is 36mV, but this is very debatable, see lateron.

Calculating:

Pin = CH1 * (CH1-CH2)/R2
Pin = 1.786 * (1.786-1.75)/1
Pin = 64.29mW

Pout = CH3²/R1
Pout = 0.8688²/20
Pout = 37.74mW

COP = 37.74/64.29 = 0.58

Using the current probe value of 44.4mA, then we get:
Pin   = 79.2mW
Pout = 37.74mW
COP  = 0.47


But.......

note the phase difference between CH1 yellow and CH2 blue, its 0, meaning pure resistive.
note the phase difference between CH4 green and CH2 blue, its -52° (plus 10 = -62°) which should be 0 as both are measuring the same current!!

So something is not right in this setup.

If i remove all probes (grounds) and only measure across R2 together with the current probe i DO get both signals
to be of the same value (45mA) plus of the same phase see screenshot 2.

thoughts?

Like if i besides using the current probe value (44.4mA),  i also use its phase offset (-62° again), i get as input:

Pin = 1.786 * 0.0444 * Cos -62°
Pin = 37.2mW


Which makes a COP of 0.98  hmm...


Itsu
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 05:37:04 PM by itsu »

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #310 on: December 23, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
I was using a battery operated (so ground isolated) FG all the time as mentioned before.
I used also an isolation transformer to be compatible with TK his setup.


Anyway, latest setup from F6FLT:

Still using the 2th bifilar coil.

Math function cannot be used in this setup (1 math function at a time only for my scope).

Screenshot 1 shows the values:

CH1 = 1.786V
CH2 = 1.750V
CH3 = 868.8mV
CH4 = 44.4mA   (i added the current probe value (right before R2 in the diagram) to show the difficulty to correctly
                           measure the voltage (current) across R2 (CH1 - CH2) in this setup)

Difference between CH1 and CH2 is 36mV, but this is very debatable, see lateron.

Calculating:

Pin = CH1 * (CH1-CH2)/R2
Pin = 1.782 * (1.782-1.75)/1
Pin = 64.29mW

Pout = CH3²/R1
Pout = 0.8688²/20
Pout = 37.74mW

COP = 37.74/64.29 = 0.58

Using the current probe value of 44.4mA, then we get:
Pin   = 79.2mW
Pout = 37.74mW
COP  = 0.47


But.......

note the phase difference between CH1 yellow and CH2 blue, its 0, meaning pure resistive.
note the phase difference between CH4 green and CH2 blue, its -52° (plus 10 = -62°) which should be 0 as both are measuring the same current!!

So something is not right in this setup.

If i remove all probes (grounds) and only measure across R2 together with the current probe i DO get both signals
to be of the same value (45mA) plus of the same phase see screenshot 2.

thoughts?


Itsu

Itsu

I would do with your current probe as i did with mine-->file it on the top shelf ,and forget about it.

Your current probe is doing exactly what mine did in the higher frequencies--lagged behind actual current. This tells me that the probe is some what capacitive at the higher frequencies.

I have never liked current probes being used at these low power ratings.
Your yellow and blue trace are correct,which means your current probe (green chanel) is reading incorrectly. Maybe it is to close to one of the coils,and picking up external magnetic fields?.


Brad

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #310 on: December 23, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #311 on: December 23, 2018, 03:52:36 PM »
I have mentioned some reasons why measurements on these types of circuits can be very tricky,

Only the drawing is tricky. L1 is connected to L2 with a capacitor. Draw the capacitor and the mystery disappears. That what I did for my LTspice model, and it reproduces perfectly my bifilar coils.

Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #312 on: December 23, 2018, 03:56:24 PM »
Itsu

I would do with your current probe as i did with mine-->file it on the top shelf ,and forget about it.

Your current probe is doing exactly what mine did in the higher frequencies--lagged behind actual current. This tells me that the probe is some what capacitive at the higher frequencies.

I have never liked current probes being used at these low power ratings.
Your yellow and blue trace are correct,which means your current probe (green chanel) is reading incorrectly. Maybe it is to close to one of the coils,and picking up external magnetic fields?.


Brad

Brad,

i don't think so, when using ONLY the current probe and ONE voltage probe across the csr, the  both show the
SAME amplitude AND phase, no lagging behind, see 2th screenshot above.

I rather think that in the multiple probe setup (1st screenshot), the blue CH2 is somehow "forced" to join up
with the phase of CH1 yellow due to the same ground points.

I would rather "believe" the current probe here then the voltage probe.

Itsu

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #313 on: December 23, 2018, 03:58:55 PM »
I have mentioned that once the scope probes are connected to the circuit and the circuit is running,
you should try moving the scope probe leads around and watch the scope display to see if the phase
difference shown between waveforms is changing when you do this. Has anyone tried this?

My guess is the electromagnetic field around coils may sometimes couple into the
scope probe leads directly which can throw phase measurements off. I have found that how
much of an issue this is depends on the exact circuit configuration and frequency of operation.
Obviously if the phase difference shown on the scope is shifting around as you move the scope probe
leads around (while the scope probes are connected to the circuit) then you can't trust the phase measurements at all.

Experienced engineers/technicians who build and test circuits like this at higher frequencies will build the circuit on a ground
plane to make the circuit more stable against stray capacitance, and keep all lead wires as short as possible, etc., and do other
things like keeping scope probe leads at right angles to coils and that sort of thing as well. Even then the measurements can be
quite difficult to do accurately. Taking accurate measurements on setups like this is an art in itself.

The bottom line is experienced OU experimenters know the importance of trying to self-loop any circuit setup that
you think might be showing OU. There is just too much room for being mislead in one way or another otherwise. :)


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #314 on: December 23, 2018, 04:02:18 PM »
...
Difference between CH1 and CH2 is 36mV, but this is very debatable, see lateron.
...
I had anticipated this difficulty. To remove it, a differential measurement could be the solution. On my old Tektronix I could choose to display channel A-B. I don't know if it's still possible with modern scopes as yours (or my Siglent, not yet searched for that).

 

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