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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 41943 times)

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #285 on: December 22, 2018, 03:41:01 AM »
This doesn't matter, this is altogether a different problem. This experiment is about theory, is there overunity in the coil itself. Certainly the overunity may not be enough for self-looping. But it is after we find a circuit that has overunity, a single circuit, It is a matter then to try to increase COP and find ways how to self loop, but as said. that's an entirely different problem altogether.
So you say that you did experiments where you measured COP > 1? Would you share the data? We need one such circuit that anyone else can replicate, just one, no one so far.

Hello ayeaye. What I was saying was that if I took the scope measurements at face value
in some of the setups I have tested, it would seem to indicate COP > 1, but examining closer
it is most likely measurement error. Sometimes I can't identify exactly why the scope is measuring
off, but by analyzing the circuit in other ways to double check results, it appears to actually be
measurement error. I have found that making accurate and very trustworthy measurements on these types
of circuits is not always so straightforward at all, so I am always very cautious about trying to draw
conclusions from measurements on these types of circuits. Using DC input as the input power source, and
converting the output to the test load to DC as well can help to simplify input and output power measurements.


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #285 on: December 22, 2018, 03:41:01 AM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #286 on: December 22, 2018, 08:42:43 AM »
Using DC input as the input power source, and
converting the output to the test load to DC as well can help to simplify input and output power measurements.

No no, not at all. With that you make circuit more complex, by that adding possible other causes of error. Input and output powers should be measured from circuit as they are, instantaneous values, and then using scope or other means, to calculate power from that data. And what matters is only input and output power of the coil, not input power of the power source, or any converted output power at all.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 01:02:18 PM by ayeaye »

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #287 on: December 22, 2018, 11:14:52 AM »
Some details on the measurement method.

The initial method with the ground connected to the other R2 terminal is not bad in itself. We just have to understand what we're doing. The R2 resistor is not part of the device. Normally R2=0 and the output power Pout is only CH3²/R1. The input power is P=CH1*I where I is the input current.

Now how do you know the input current? This is where R2 is added, between the ground and the rest of the circuit. The voltage measured at the R2 terminals give us the current through the virtue of I=U/R, and this voltage is assumed to be negligible, without affecting operation.

BUT R2 must be very small so as not to disturb the setup. In general 1 Ω is sufficient, but here R2 is not at all negligible either in comparison to R1 (R2 represents 5% of R1), or in comparison to the resistance of the coils.  So either we take R2 smaller for example 0.1 Ω, or we measure as I indicated, R2 is then considered as part of the device and not just part of the measurement process, and we also take into account the power dissipated there.  Pout = CH3²/R1 + CH2²/R2.

If we keep the initial measurement process, then we can expect a 5% error on the measurement, which perfectly explains the COP of 1.061 measured by Itsu.
However, this does not explain at all the COP of nearly 3 measured by TK, which was well over 5%. If TK applied my correction, it shouldn't change much the result. So there is an error elsewhere in the TK measurement, or it is OU.

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #287 on: December 22, 2018, 11:14:52 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #288 on: December 22, 2018, 05:03:40 PM »

Using NO 1 Ohm csr (R2), but my current probe to measure / calculate the input current instead.

I know my current probe is offset somewhat compared to the voltage probes, and the scope deskew cannot compensate enough (±10ns only).

So first screenshot below shows both the csr measurement using a voltage probe (blue) and the current probe (green) in the working situation.

We still see (after max. deskew compensation) a phase difference of about 10° between the blue and green channels.
We cannot change that for the scope math function calculations, but we can add the 10° extra to the manual calculations.
The amplitude values are almost the same.


So removing the 1 Ohm csr and using the current probe in its place we get (see screenshots 2 and 3):

CH1 yellow = 1.92V
CH3 purple = 855.7mV
CH4 green  = 43.76mA
phase CH1-CH4 = -55.47°
Math  CH1xCH4 = 48.59mW


So, Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 48.59mW   (using uncorrected phase difference)
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms  x Cos (phi)   = P ave
                                                    1.92  x 0.04376 x Cos (-55.47 + 10) = 34.88mW          (here we corrected the phases from -55.47 plus 10 to -65.47°)

   
Pout = CH3²/R1
        = 0.8557²/20
        = 36.61mW

COP = 36.61 / 34.88 = 1.049

Regards Itsu

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #289 on: December 22, 2018, 06:16:40 PM »
No no, not at all. With that you make circuit more complex, by that adding possible other causes of error. Input and output powers should be measured from circuit as they are, instantaneous values, and then using scope or other means, to calculate power from that data. And what matters is only input and output power of the coil, not input power of the power source, or any converted output power at all.

I understand what you are trying to do, but I was talking about a possible way to do practical
reality checks on such measurements in general. A practical way to double check results, which IMO is what
any reasonable person should do if they are getting measured results that appears to indicate COP > 1. :)
This is coming from long experience with these types of circuits, as I have already mentioned.
It all depends on whether a person is interested in trying to understand well what is really going on or not.
People are free to do whatever they like, and believe whatever they like however.

At any rate, what Itsu is measuring is well within the margin of measurement error, so no
reason to think there might be a COP > 1 for Itsu's latest measurements. IMO, his measurement error
could potentially be as high as 10%, if not higher, although not necessarily so, but potentially so.
I have mentioned that there also always may potentially be other factors affecting measurements that someone may
be overlooking in their measurements and calculations, so looking for practical ways to double check measurement results
is always a very good idea IMO.  :)


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #289 on: December 22, 2018, 06:16:40 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #290 on: December 22, 2018, 06:41:12 PM »
...
So removing the 1 Ohm csr and using the current probe in its place we get (see screenshots 2 and 3):

CH1 yellow = 1.92V
CH3 purple = 855.7mV
CH4 green  = 43.76mA
phase CH1-CH4 = -55.47°
Math  CH1xCH4 = 48.59mW


So, Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 48.59mW   (using uncorrected phase difference)
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms  x Cos (phi)   = P ave
                                                    1.92  x 0.04376 x Cos (-55.47 + 10) = 34.88mW          (here we corrected the phases from -55.47 plus 10 to -65.47°)

   
Pout = CH3²/R1
        = 0.8557²/20
        = 36.61mW

COP = 36.61 / 34.88 = 1.049

Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu

You result is still intriguing. You said you have two bifilar coils. One is 133.8uH/131.2uH, the other 125.5uH/122.4uH, with a Q=50 @ 100Khz.

Which coil did you use, and what are their capacities and resistances? May be you already gave them and I missed it. With these values I could make a LTspice model and compare to your traces to see if there is something different.

Coils resistance provides supplementary losses so that your COP could be higher.


Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #291 on: December 22, 2018, 07:07:11 PM »
Coils resistance provides supplementary losses so that your COP could be higher.

Or the COP could potentially be lower than measured as well, due to measurement error. :)
IME, scopes are not super accurate at lower power level measurements like this, and that is to be expected.
Another possible way to double check the measurements on low power level circuits like this
is to scale the input drive up to a higher power level of say at least about 1 Watt or higher, and measure again
in the same way with the scope. That way potential measurement error should become less significant, assuming of course
that the measurement approach is correct and one is not overlooking one or more things. 
If you are still seeing interesting results, then you may really be onto something. :)

I have tested with some low power circuit configurations in the past which seemed to show some
potentially interesting results, but I have put them on the back burner until I can get the chance to
test with them again at higher power levels. I have found it can be just too hard to try to draw any sort
of definite and reasonable conclusions when powering at low power levels. If powering at higher power levels,
measurement error should become a lot less of a factor (although over sights are always still potentially there),
and it also should make it somewhat easier to try to self-loop a circuit as well.


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #291 on: December 22, 2018, 07:07:11 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #292 on: December 22, 2018, 07:11:21 PM »
My previous post #265 utilized a pcb bifilar coil arrangement in which each coil was separated by the .062" thickness of the FR4 G10 glass substrate.  This substrate also served as the dielectric between the two coils which overall does not provide the most efficient results due to the lower distributed capacitance.  This post is of the same basic circuitry but uses two of the pcbs sandwiched together with two layers of soldermask providing the dielectric resulting in a higher distributed capacitance.

Two pix are again shown with the first showing the waveforms and measurements and the second showing the data for CH1(yel) or the input signal as 104.9v rms.

The following calculations from the measurements will take into account the separate power levels in the 1 ohm CSR and the 20 ohm load.  Again statistics for the measurements over time are shown plus the horizontal resolution is now increased to 5 million points.  The vertical resolution is 8 bits and the level of each measurement has been adjusted for near full vertical deflection so we can assume the vertical error to be ~1/256 = .4%.

So, for Pin we see the Math channel measures a min = 98.98mw avg and max = 129.5mw avg. 

We see the current across the CSR = 315.4ma rms and the voltage across both the CSR + Rload = 6.5v rms.  Since the output current and voltage are in phase, we can calculate the power across the CSR as .3154^2*1 = 99.5mw rms.  The voltage drop across the CSR = .3154*1 = 315.4mv rms. 

We can now calculate the power across the load resistor as (6.5-.3154)^2/20 = 1.91w rms resulting a total Pout = 1.91+.0995 = 2.01w rms.

Using the Math channel Pin results for the range of COP we have COPmin = 2.01/.1295 = 15.52 and COPmax = 2.01/.099 = 20.3.

Using the input VAR and phase angle measurements we have a PINmin = 109.4*.3154*cos(-89.22) = 469.7mw rms and PINmax = 109.4*.3154*cos(-88.88) = 674.4mw rms.  This results in a COPmin = 2.01/.6744 = 2.98 and COPmax = 2.01/.4697 = 4.28. 

The VAR = 34.5va so the reactive to real ratio is 34.5/2.01 = 17.16:1.

Regards,
Pm 

Offline itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #293 on: December 22, 2018, 07:25:50 PM »
Hi Itsu

You result is still intriguing. You said you have two bifilar coils. One is 133.8uH/131.2uH, the other 125.5uH/122.4uH, with a Q=50 @ 100Khz.

Which coil did you use, and what are their capacities and resistances? May be you already gave them and I missed it. With these values I could make a LTspice model and compare to your traces to see if there is something different.

Coils resistance provides supplementary losses so that your COP could be higher.

F6FLT,

still using the 2th coil which measured:

125.5uH/122.4uH, with a Q=50 @ 100Khz
both 1.5 Ohm and 2.5nF capacitance between them.

Itsu

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #293 on: December 22, 2018, 07:25:50 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #294 on: December 22, 2018, 07:44:04 PM »
Hi Partzman. I don't know exactly what your circuit arrangement was when doing your measurements,
but, if I understand you correctly, measuring a COP of about 20+ one way and measure a COP
of about 2+ another way seems to indicate that something is quite wrong there somewhere.


Offline partzman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #295 on: December 22, 2018, 08:23:29 PM »
Hi Partzman. I don't know exactly what your circuit arrangement was when doing your measurements,
but, if I understand you correctly, measuring a COP of about 20+ one way and measure a COP
of about 2+ another way seems to indicate that something is quite wrong there somewhere.

Hi Void,

What do you propose is the source of the large differential in COP?  Which one is more accurate?

Regards,

Pm

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #295 on: December 22, 2018, 08:23:29 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #296 on: December 22, 2018, 08:46:30 PM »
Hi Void,
What do you propose is the source of the large differential in COP?  Which one is more accurate?
Regards,
Pm

Hi partzman. I am not sure, as I am not sure how you did your measurements.
Was your measurement method the same as what Itsu was doing in his last couple
of measurement tests? Did you have the isolation transformer at the input as well?


Offline partzman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #297 on: December 22, 2018, 09:51:43 PM »
Hi partzman. I am not sure, as I am not sure how you did your measurements.
Was your measurement method the same as what Itsu was doing in his last couple
of measurement tests? Did you have the isolation transformer at the input as well?

Same basic schematic as TK but no isolation transformer. 

Pm

Offline Void

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #298 on: December 23, 2018, 02:00:20 AM »
Same basic schematic as TK but no isolation transformer. 
Pm

I see. I think you may well need the transformer at the input like Itsu is doing since the transmit pancake coil is
open circuit at one end, so very hard to measure the input power to it otherwise. That may be where you
are having a measurement issue.


Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #299 on: December 23, 2018, 04:49:57 AM »
OK,how easy is OU to achieve ?

Easy
First take your bifi coil.
Set up as circuit below--secondary open.
Crank FG up until more power is being returned to the FG by the bifi coil,than the FG is delivering. :D

First scope shot at 1Mhz
Second at 9Mhz-->OU  ::). I mean,the calculated power has gone negative   :D


Brad

 

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