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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 34937 times)

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #225 on: December 15, 2018, 03:24:23 PM »
Okay, Chet, this is the right way.
I have often been caught by measurement errors, some of my fault, others related to the measurement equipment (e. g. my FG Siglent generates a few mV in DC superimposed on the sine signal!).
That is why this Tinselkoala's video is so exemplary. He simply shows the measurements and how he does them, without any definitive conclusion because I suspect he doubts and wants to check, which is to his credit.


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #225 on: December 15, 2018, 03:24:23 PM »

Offline ramset

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #226 on: December 15, 2018, 03:37:13 PM »
IMO...If this forum were a place which supported members like this who actually build and share honest measurement protocols for scrutiny and discussion.
we would be a million miles closer to where we need to be .
he was an asset which will be very hard to replace


Maybe we can fix that here ??real science is hard to resist .......... ;)


Offline partzman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #227 on: December 15, 2018, 05:11:05 PM »
PBT//Partzmans Bifilar transformer
F6FLT ...I understand the frustration from The author of the Video , he tries to explain to persons herethat even measurements must be scrutinized to the finest degree [his hidden message in this vid] ,soooo many times there is a surprise at the end of the scrutiny
and here in this forum persons who dare to measure get threats and attacks ,..that is why you don't see them here too much ,and you do see persons flaunting failures as fact ?
I am not versed in the error which manifest to produce this particular measurement error.and I must also add Partzman still works with Smudge and others to find all these errors//...after all it is the only way to advance and not be fooled [the Feynman tag at the bottom of the Tinsels posts.//
Brutal honesty is the only way forward ,if the scientific method is abandoned ....there is no way to Progress ,this just becomes a place for secret book writers ,fraudsters and scammers

I will ask Partzman to explain this error [to be sure I have this correct ]but he may not answer here as certain persons are attacking the scientific method here at this time.[not referencing any members here in this thread]

..if he does not respond personally ,I will be sure to post the reply.
respectfully..Chet//
Ps to add // I see these errors as sharpening the spear [and so does the Partzman]the hunt will never stop

Since this is my circuit being discussed I will answer the question regarding measurement error with this specific configuration by saying  "is there any error"?  TK may have been tongue-in-cheek but was he?

The potential measurement error with this type of circuit (a reactive to real power converter) comes from two sources.  First, the high ratio of reactive to real power and second, the requirement of the scope used to discern "minutes" of phase angle measurements.  This requires extreme care when deskewing the probes used (particularly the current measurement) plus probe connections and layout.

Are these converters capable of producing more energy out than in, yes they are but with a caveat in determining if they are or not.  The input sinewave is the point of reference for the input power.  However, in the test TK shows and in nearly all others I've done, this sinewave was generated by some outside means such as a signal generator for low levels or a pulse generator driving a resonant L/C circuit.  The former is usually produced by Direct Digital Synthesis which may or may not require more energy than is produced at the output, but the later always requires more energy.

Herein lies the problem to be solved IMO!

Pm

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #227 on: December 15, 2018, 05:11:05 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #228 on: December 15, 2018, 05:30:57 PM »
this sinewave was generated by some outside means such as a signal generator for low levels or a pulse generator driving a resonant L/C circuit. The former is usually produced by Direct Digital Synthesis which may or may not require more energy than is produced at the output, but the later always requires more energy.

This doesn't matter. Or, it does matter. If we need to really generate energy for any practical purpose. But this work is theoretical, at the beginning it is always theoretical. Thus, it only matters whether there is overunity in the circuit. Or whether there is overunity in any part of the circuit, or whether there is overunity anywhere. How much energy generating the input really takes, doesn't matter, this is not a theoretical issue.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #229 on: December 16, 2018, 04:02:04 PM »
@partzman

I think we are only at the proof of concept phase and not yet at the realization of a real stand-alone device, what matters right now is to know the power of the signal provided by the generator (no matter how much it consumes), and to compare it to the output power. While there is a doubt on the result, we cant take OU for sure.

In addition to the two potential measurement errors you noticed, a third and strong possible flaw is an induced current in the measurement loop. The PBTs are rather poorly designed, with their ground wire that can make a wide loop through which leaks of variable magnetic flux can induce currents that completely distort the result (I had the problem).
I look forward to TK's conclusion.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #229 on: December 16, 2018, 04:02:04 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #230 on: December 17, 2018, 03:52:33 AM »
OK, you find your measurement errors. There are certainly measurement errors, though i don't see that there can be any significant errors. But the privilege of having errors is all yours :) I hope that i could help anyone anyhow. Though F6FLT doesn't think that i have any value. Now there is nothing in this world that i can do.


Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #231 on: December 17, 2018, 06:39:59 AM »
@partzman

I think we are only at the proof of concept phase and not yet at the realization of a real stand-alone device, what matters right now is to know the power of the signal provided by the generator (no matter how much it consumes), and to compare it to the output power. While there is a doubt on the result, we cant take OU for sure.

In addition to the two potential measurement errors you noticed, a third and strong possible flaw is an induced current in the measurement loop. The PBTs are rather poorly designed, with their ground wire that can make a wide loop through which leaks of variable magnetic flux can induce currents that completely distort the result (I had the problem).
I look forward to TK's conclusion.

Edit
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 10:27:48 AM by tinman »

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #231 on: December 17, 2018, 06:39:59 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #232 on: December 17, 2018, 06:46:50 AM »
Tinman, i think you by mistake posted in wrong thread. This thread is not about Chris device, partnered output coils or anything like that, it is about experiments with bifilar pancake coils.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #233 on: December 17, 2018, 10:23:56 AM »
... i don't see that there can be any significant errors...
What are your technical arguments that they would be insignificant?!
It's not a question of seeing or not seeing. If you do not see but know possible causes of measurement bias, you must eliminate them (assuming you want to make a real machine that works, and not just indulge in a belief that it could work).

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #233 on: December 17, 2018, 10:23:56 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #234 on: December 17, 2018, 10:29:18 AM »
Tinman, i think you by mistake posted in wrong thread. This thread is not about Chris device, partnered output coils or anything like that, it is about experiments with bifilar pancake coils.

Yes,i just seen that.

I have no idea how it jumped onto this thread,as i havnt been on this thread,and was replying to a post on Chris's thread.

Odd.

Offline tinman

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #235 on: December 17, 2018, 10:45:41 AM »
It was the video that triggered my coming here, because I had noticed that Tinselkoala is a reliable experimenter.
There is an intriguing comment from him on the investigation of the COP, he seems to suspect a measurement issue:
"I just haven't yet posted the video of that further investigation yet. Hint: How would you test to see if the PBT itself is actually causing the OU readings?"

TK has the same scope as myself,and the grounds are common.
This is cause for concern ,as it links all ground points together,and so the isolation transformer is no longer isolated.

Then at these high frequencies,capacitive coupling can play a large part in measurement error.

I would remove the BPC,and replace it with the single wound coil he was using to drive the LED,and see if the OU results can still be had--i suspect so,having also experimented with this circuit.


Brad

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #235 on: December 17, 2018, 10:45:41 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #236 on: December 17, 2018, 10:48:55 AM »
What are your technical arguments that they would be insignificant?!

That it all seems to boil into oscilloscope working properly. 1.4 MHz, or what it was, is not so great frequency, so with a good oscilloscope that is well calibrated and properly connected, there should not be any significant errors. That said, there always are errors of course, as i said.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #237 on: December 17, 2018, 11:03:43 AM »
That it all seems to boil into oscilloscope working properly. 1.4 MHz, or what it was, is not so great frequency, so with a good oscilloscope that is well calibrated and properly connected, there should not be any significant errors. That said, there always are errors of course, as i said.
"seems to boil"... "not so great"?!...
I asked for technical arguments, i.e. quantified at least in terms of order of magnitude, not impressions. Even signals of less than 100 KHz can induce significant currents in a probe loop.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #238 on: December 17, 2018, 11:22:07 AM »
"seems to boil"... "not so great"?!...

Yes i always don't talk by numbers, may be too bad but, sorry.

Also TinselKoala and Partzman have exclusive right to errors, no one can take it from them.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #239 on: December 18, 2018, 10:03:08 AM »
Errors can only be made by people who study, try and experiment because they do not know, know that they do not know, and want to understand. Making errors is a step towards the truth.

People who know everything and find ad hoc explanations for everything cannot be wrong. They are omniscient. It is these useless people who reinterpret scientific theories in any way, who tell us that scientists are idiots because academic formatted and that an incoherent diagram, but well drawn in a pretty image that appeals to children, will work, even before they build it, measure it and thus prove it, which they are unable to do.


 

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