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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 20071 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2018, 02:40:38 PM »
Non sequitur. I know that and I agree. The device is only needed to prove that the "natural phenomenon" allegedly found, is really OU.

Sequitur. The device is not needed to prove OU. Furthermore, a device may prevent the proof, as what is proven is not that which needs to be proven.

If one wants examples. The Bedini SG battery charger. Device yes, one battery can charge two batteries to their nominal voltage, yes. Like all one needs for overunity, right? But is it overunity? No. And how so, because again what is proven is not that which needs to be proven, what is measured is not that which needs to be measured for OU. As if one measures, one may find, the coil provides no overunity. The batteries are normal and provide no overunity either. Nothing in the device provides overunity, if overunity is that which we measure. Then how comes that it works. These are these sharp edges on the pulses, which they say give the "kick". What they really do, such sharp pulses create surface charge when charging a battery. Surface charge is when the battery is charged only near the electrode, and this happens when charging with short narrow pulses, the charge just cannot go further. Now what would be necessary to show the energy balance of the batteries, is not only charge, but also discharge them, measuring the output. That is always omitted in the Bedini experiments, because again, they measure the device, not anything else. And doing so completely excludes proving the overunity.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2018, 02:40:38 PM »

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #181 on: October 23, 2018, 02:52:24 PM »

It is clear that our intellectual requirement for proof is not at the same level neither of same nature. I'm really very demanding.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2018, 02:58:54 PM »
It is clear that our intellectual requirement for proof is not at the same level neither of same nature. I'm really very demanding.

Read the above, i'm much more denanding than most.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2018, 02:58:54 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #183 on: October 23, 2018, 03:25:49 PM »
...
If one wants examples. The Bedini SG battery charger. Device yes, one battery can charge two batteries to their nominal voltage, yes. Like all one needs for overunity, right? But is it overunity? No. And how so, because again what is proven is not that which needs to be proven, what is measured is not that which needs to be measured for OU.
non sequitur.
OU is for energy. A looped device must confirm the extra energy. There is no looped device with Bedini. A looped device must last long enough to produce more energy than it contained at the beginning. I'm sorry I didn't emphasize this obvious truism.

And don't forget either the purpose of this forum:
"Free energy will help heal the planet Earth.
In our discussion forum www.overunity.com, we talk about all kinds of free energy and alternative and renewable energy systems."

The ultimate goal is to build a device, not just to invoke a principle or a measurement by saying it is OU. Because we already have hundreds of such useless statements. That's why a sustainable device is required as proof.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #184 on: October 23, 2018, 03:34:46 PM »
OU is for energy. A looped device must confirm the extra energy. There is no looped device with Bedini. A looped device must last long enough to produce more energy than it contained at the beginning. I'm sorry I didn't emphasize this obvious truism.

It is a looped device. The battery charged can be used to power device and charge yet another battery, and endlessly so. A perfectly looped device, right?

Quote
The ultimate goal is to build a device, not just to invoke a principle or a measurement by saying it is OU. Because we already have hundreds of such useless statements. That's why a sustainable device is required as proof.

Not sequitur. We don't have not a single measurement that proves OU. Or do you know one, maybe you can say. So what is the problem? There is no need and there can never be a need to go away from the conventional methods of research.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #184 on: October 23, 2018, 03:34:46 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #185 on: October 23, 2018, 06:03:46 PM »
It is a looped device. The battery charged can be used to power device and charge yet another battery, and endlessly so. A perfectly looped device, right?
Urban legend.
We have no proof that Bedini's device works endlessly. If we had it, we wouldn't be here to search for OU when we would have it for years! His device is looped but not sustainable, like a battery connected to a resistance.

Quote
Not sequitur. We don't have not a single measurement that proves OU. Or do you know one, maybe you can say. So what is the problem? There is no need and there can never be a need to go away from the conventional methods of research.

The problem is that: "Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment".
This is the title you have chosen yourself. Why this misleading title and reference in your first post to a "zero Lenz effect" before describing your experiment, if you don't have a single measurement indicating OU or no Lenz effect?
I thought you were talking about things related to the subject.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #186 on: October 23, 2018, 06:31:15 PM »
We have no proof that Bedini's device works endlessly. If we had it, we wouldn't be here to search for OU when we would have it for years! His device is looped but not sustainable, like a battery connected to a resistance.

You told what is necessary is a looping device, so this is looping device all right.

"Zero lenz effect", this is what i thought, and i also said that this is only what i think.

Desolation.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #186 on: October 23, 2018, 06:31:15 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #187 on: October 24, 2018, 09:52:50 AM »
F6FLT, now what is the value of your LTspice model? That you find when the reality differs from the model? It certainly does, the capacitance can only be modeled as many small capacitors between the conductors after some intervals all the length of the wire. There may not be such model in LTspice, because it is not many small coils in series, it is one coil, these capacitors would be like a part of the coil. Maybe there is something like that for transmission lines, but also for some restricted case perhaps. One may have to write ones own equations to really model it. This may have some purpose, to compare the simulation with the real, find the difference, that may enable to find everything that is going on there.

Modeling a coil at instances of time is even not so very difficult, the differential equation for induction is very simple. May be an interesting thing for some, sure it also has been done so one doesn't have to start from nothing.

But F6FLT, please understand we don't want to see only the output of your model. Because any value that your model may ever have, is in comparing it with the real data. So please also post the screenshot of your oscilloscope in addition to your simulation of that. Just if you want your work to have any value.

Bedini SG is indeed, looping and, no overunity whatsoever, so everybody should rejoice.

If showing that there is no overunity gives so much joy, then why don't you show that the various coils that are believed to have overunity, such as rodin coils, really have none? Or then again i don't see what gives joy and what doesn't.


Offline gyulasun

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #188 on: October 24, 2018, 11:11:25 PM »
Hi F6FLT,

Thanks for describing what you find by probing the E field around the bifilar coil, it is interesting. (Reply #175 in previous page)

I wonder if you still consider to design a bifilar coil where the lower and upper resonant frequencies would coincide?
I think you would need to decide first how you drive that coil because as you found the two resonances occur at two different driving methods.
Then decide whether you would increase Cs1 and Cs2 to bring the upper frequency down or you would choose to increase the lower resonant frequency by appropiate coil construction to reduce Cp.
But: now, after the simulations (Reply #179), I wonder if you still think that strange effects may be going to happen, when the lower and upper resonant frequencies are met?    8)

Regarding simulations on bifilar coils, would like to show such here:
https://overunity.com/17186/the-bifilar-pancake-coil-at-its-resonant-frequency/msg505402/topicseen/#msg505402

However, in that simulation the two bifilar windings are connected in series (as per in the Tesla patent, Coil for electromagnets).   
That thread, by the way, includes several ideas with measurements and with COP > 1 results but in the end the errors are recognized... 

Addition:  the bifilar coils are wound from normal enameled wires, see this video how they looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXKJjNAZDEM   

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #188 on: October 24, 2018, 11:11:25 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #189 on: October 26, 2018, 05:56:02 PM »
Hi Gyula,

I have now understood the bifilar coil in a quasi-stationary regime i.e. when the dimensions of the coils (not the wire length which can be much longer) are small in comparison with the wavelengths of the signals. This is largely due to your comments about the two capacitors.

The two frequencies are not parameters of the bifilar coil. Each one depends on the setup, in particular the highest. We can have only one for a given setup so my idea to make them converge is a non sens.
Either we have a low impedance connecting both ends of the coils (like a generator), then the small parasitic capacitance that loops them through air is negligible and we have the resonance LCω²=1 with C the large capacitance between wires, or we keep the ends open or weakly coupled, and then the two wires work as one and resonate at LCpω²=1 where Cp is the small parasitic capacitance. A more balanced compromise could be made leading to any intermediate frequency, through connections with adjusted impedances, but I don't see any particular interest.

In Tesla's patent, the wires are indeed connected in series, a case that does not correspond to either of the two I mentioned, because they have only been used to characterize the fundamental parameters.
In DC it's easy: we have the same number of turns in a bifilar or monofilar coil of the same size and wire, so the same current produces the same magnetic field. It is quite normal that TinselKoala measures almost the same value. At low frequency, it's the same thing. Although the capacitor is charged/discharged at each cycle, it does not allow a high current to pass through because its impedance remains high at this low frequency. At higher frequencies, especially near resonance frequencies that are different between the two coils, it is likely that the measured fields will be different.

I have simplified my previous LTspice schematic of my bifilar coil and I'm now designing a component easy to use in a model (see attached picture). I hate this non-intuitive software so I'm struggling a little bit. When it is ready (if I succeed) I will release it in a new thread and I will test Tesla's configuration.

There is no need of simulating the bifilar coil with many discrete components. A bifilar coil, or even a transmission line, is a quadrupole. It is sufficient to define four ports and establish the equations linking the voltages and currents of all ports to each other.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #190 on: October 26, 2018, 06:26:55 PM »
The connection in the Tesla's patent provides the maximum difference of potential between the windings, that is 1/2 of the voltage on the coil, which enables maximum charge between the windings. And there should have been a reason why this was necessary.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #190 on: October 26, 2018, 06:26:55 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #191 on: October 27, 2018, 01:08:53 PM »
Now some may ask why did i create this thread. I found a way to calculate input and output power of a coil with Python. Then i did an experiment with a bifiar pancake coil made of some sort of shielded speaker cable. The calculations showed overunity, that is when i created this thread. But then, the more precise i went with the calculations, the less overunity there were. Though the overunity did not completely go away. By repeating the experiment i never got the same results again, and there were never overunity. So i cannot be sure whether that one time there was overunity, or was it about some imprecision of measurement. Without being able to replicate it exactly the same, i cannot be sure what was the case. That's all i can say, i don't want to cheat anyhow.

I have a kind of poor equipment. Only an old analog oscilloscope, only Arduino to generate signal, and i have to make some DAC with it to even create sine, with any higher frequency, otherwise i cannot even find resonance. All i have is a pulse.

This here, is really everyone doing important work. Finding no overunity is as important as finding overunity. Like if it will be found that some type of coil never has overunity, that's important, that's much less remaining to find out. Do any coils even have overunity, what would be left then is cold fusion, big Tesla coils, resonance, things like that. Overall, the work of everyone here, doing important contributions, should be rewarded. Not only these who once may find overunity. Because when they once do, that's also because of the work of many others, whose work finally enabled to get the result. I know here are serious people who do everything they can to research overunity, i love you guys, you do good work, that needs to be done, not done wrongly at all.

And yes i understand, with an unknown thing one wants to get as much information about it as one can get. F6FLT did a good job in that, i appreciate, there is nothing negative i want to say. And yes i know how difficult it is.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #192 on: October 27, 2018, 03:30:15 PM »
The connection in the Tesla's patent provides the maximum difference of potential between the windings, that is 1/2 of the voltage on the coil, which enables maximum charge between the windings. And there should have been a reason why this was necessary.
The reason is that it maximizes capacity.
As you said, in the Tesla's patent there is a voltage U/2 between two consecutive turns while there is only U/n in a normal coil, n being the number of turns.

In any case, it's just an LC circuit but with a much bigger capacity with the Tesla's winding.
Tesla used it because particularly at his time (but also today less or more) high voltage capacitors were difficult to make.

Online ramset

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #193 on: October 27, 2018, 03:55:20 PM »
A sizable advancement a few days ago
Capacitors and 3D printing of Graphene

https://www.insidescience.org/news/3d-printed-graphene-scaffold-breaks-capacitor-records


you are truly men of science and character , The Sun delivers in one hour what our entire Planet uses in one year.
we will find that "Tap" into this "wheelwork of nature"

your examples here sharing your hard work as well as honesty and integrity are priceless examples and very much appreciated and inspiring .
with much respect

Chet

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #194 on: October 27, 2018, 10:26:16 PM »
Hi F6FLT,

Okay, fine on your reply #189 above.

Would like to draw your (and ayeaye) attention to some patent applications in which "capacitive" windings are involved but not only with distributed capacitance but with normal capacitors connected between the two start and two end wires of the windings, see here an application for the latter, for instance:

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=WO&NR=2010003394A2&KC=A2&FT=D# 

It is like your circuit on the left hand side in your post #179 but in the patent application the Cs capacitors are not shown, only the Cp ones, i.e. they are lumped element capacitors. The inventor refers to applications in which capacitive i.e. reactive current is utilized, he says magnetic field from such current can also do work in the same way as real current, and to the outside circuit such coil assembly shows capacitive behaviour at the low frequencies and power factor is (quasi) zero.
The German text of the application can be on-line translated freely if you click on the Description icon in the left hand side vertical Menu and then choose your preferred language in the small window in the middle.
The same inventor shows an application for induction heating with such coils, see this link which also translates German text to English:   https://patents.google.com/patent/DE202014001838U1/en

Here is the original German text in which the math formulas can be seen better:
 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=DE&NR=202014001838U1&KC=U1&FT=D&ND=&date=20140611&DB=&locale=# 
Of course, in this link you can also have English text if you click on the Description icon.

My humble opinion to readers here is that only correct measurements can decide whether such capacitive coils with near zero power factor have any advantage in a practical application like say inductive heating or in electric motors etc.
Gyula

 

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