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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 25990 times)

Offline onepower

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #165 on: October 22, 2018, 01:44:40 AM »
F6FLT
Quote
But with the bifilar coil connected as specified in reply #153, the resonance drops to 28Khz.
I have tried many LTspice simulations to get an equivalent circuit. The only LTspice simulation that fits what I observe needs the inductance (not the capacitance) to be multiplied by 5000.

Right... lose the simulator it's useless. Real experiments done by real people produce real results.

Quote
It's indeed impossible to reach a so low resonance with values as small as 55nf and 84.8nH. The schematic is very simple but problematic. Did I miss something? (Otherwise imho it's useless to play with bifilar coils until we obtain an explanation for this elementary result).

Impossible you say?.
It may help to go over some high school science textbook theory.

Let's imagine we have two wires in close proximity in a Bifilar Pancake coil where the end of the first conductor is connected to the beginning of the second conductor. If we send a quick spike of current down the first conductor we can expect that a Cemf will be induced in the second conductor as per Faraday's Law of Induction. However if the voltage rise is very fast then all kinds of transient effects can occur as we know. Now what do you think will happen if the two conductors in close proximity, in effect, constitute a capacitance?. Well we know what will happen and the capacitance will absorb and store the energy as a function of the difference in potential between the two conductors at that point between the conductors and the dielectric properties of the insulation... a capacitor.

Thus the reason none of this makes any sense to you is because you probably simulated a rather low frequency/low voltage sine wave, lol. I mean you could not have possibly done anything more pointless because this has no effect. Understand Tesla's patent was a way to store transient energy producing voltage spikes due to an absurd induced Cemf/voltage rise in the capacitance between the coil turns. A buffering capacitor built internal into the coil storing the difference in potential between each individual turn.

So let's ask the question... how many coil technologies have you seen which can counter a Cemf and absorb transient energy spikes on a cm per turn, non-lumped sum, basis... fucking zero is your answer.

Tesla didn't design his coil for low frequency sine waves he designed it for high voltage, extreme rise/fall time square waves which generate massive transient effects. This coil was designed for what we call a worst case scenario not sine waves. It was designed for square waves with a wave "period" not frequency much shorter than the length of the conductor. Which is the reason your lumped sum simulator is about as useful as tits on a boar.

Your completely out of your element here, imagine a long rope and I give it a quick snap producing a single wave travelling along it's length like a soliton wave. Now imagine if at any point the rope touches the ground energy is stored... this is the transient energy stored as capacitance(a difference in potential) at that singular point. However it is a conductor thus the energy stored at that point must conduct or move along the conductor ... the question is where and in what direction.

What your trying to do is understand joe blow down the street by looking at the Earth from the moon. Obviously it's all just water and continents and shit with no detail but your looking and thinking it's relevant... but no it's not. The context is so far removed from the truth it becomes a lesson in stupidity.



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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #165 on: October 22, 2018, 01:44:40 AM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #166 on: October 22, 2018, 02:15:01 AM »
What your trying to do is understand joe blow down the street by looking at the Earth from the moon.

Yeah i read one time what you wrote, didn't understand. Read second time, still didn't understand. Read several times more, and still don't understand. You like go on saying that it's all so clear and rational, but trying to find in what this clarity and rationality is, cannot find it.

That in a bifilar coil a part of the induction goes to charging the capacitance, yes i thought it's so. Then this capacitance discharges, giving the energy out again i guess. So much i can figure.


Offline onepower

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #167 on: October 22, 2018, 03:25:25 AM »
ayeaye
Quote
Yeah i read one time what you wrote, didn't understand. Read second time, still didn't understand. Read several times more, and still don't understand. You like go on saying that it's all so clear and rational, but trying to find in what this clarity and rationality is, cannot find it.

I would ask... if 1 billion people believed that no man could possibly jump higher than 2.45 m would you believe them?. It seems impossible doesn't it? , I mean eight feet and one quarter inches and yet one man did it proving billions and billions of people wrong. The lesson here is simple, that man who in fact jumped over 8 feet and one quarter inches into the air and cleared that bar... was not you or me.

Should we presume just because we cannot do something that it cannot be done?. If this belief or construct were the case then no person could possibly know more or do more than we could. We would be all knowing all seeing god of sorts which is a special kind of messed up in my opinion because we are only human just like everyone else.

So yes I believe you and others do not understand many things I do however I may not understand many things you do.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 10:37:01 AM by onepower »

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #167 on: October 22, 2018, 03:25:25 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #168 on: October 22, 2018, 08:16:55 AM »
The lesson here is simple, that man who in fact jumped over 8 feet and one quarter inches into the air and cleared that bar... was not you.

That's ok. You see as i said, the native americans didn't see the big ships of the spanish, in spite they were clearly visible. The unknown plays tricks with us. Thus the only sensible way is to just go ahead, and do measurements.

The most right would likely be, with a floating scope, to have ground between the coil and the resistor, and measure the voltage on the coil and on the resistor, with the channel for the resistor inverted. Be careful with a floating scope as i said. But there i guess, the voltage on the coil should be in phase with the voltage on the signal generator, all sines too, though subtracting one sine from the other is not exactly sine? Anyway, very similar to sine, when the other voltage is small, like just for measuring current. What i can figure.

Sine they say is the simplest, but sine is not at all simplest for induction, it is a quite complicated case. Simplest is a positive square pulse, i think. But no phi there.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #169 on: October 22, 2018, 10:45:30 AM »
My guess is that because of the capacitance, some of the induction happens Lenz free, and this enables very high inductance. This conjecture is just intuitive, not really thought through at all. But the matter is that there seems to be by now no better explanation.
...

I can't follow you on that point. If there was no Lenz effect, there would be no induction either. The induction law if the effect of moving electrons in a first circuit which creates the changing magnetic field onto electrons in a second circuit (circuits or current loops from electron spins if we deal with permanent magnets).
When the electrons of the second circuit begin to move, the induction law still applies, they have also an influence onto the electrons of the first circuit because same cause products same effect. Lenz's law is a name (in tribute to the name of the discoverer) we use arbitrarily for the induction law when we observe the reciprocal effect. But the induction law is only linked to the relative speed between moving electrons and there is no preferential viewpoint, we can take the electrons of the first circuit or the second. It's also explainable by relativity.


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #169 on: October 22, 2018, 10:45:30 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #170 on: October 22, 2018, 11:23:41 AM »
There is really not a Lenz law, it is not a separate law, it's just a symmetry of the induction process. If there is only one circuit involved, then it works in a way that it works against the changes in the current. But in case of capacitance, capacitance is not really the same circuit, and capacitance is everywhere, thus not much current in the main circuit is necessary to charge it either. So like not much works against the changes, that may enable the changes to become greater, like induction to be greater. This is only an intuitive thinking, as i said.

But induction, to get some idea. Atoms, they are like fire wheels. The electrons orbiting the nucleus. They are also the dipoles. Electrostatic charges are really all there is, and they are very strong, but there is always a balance. Magnetism is just a phenomenon caused by these charges. Induction is these atoms changing current in a conductor. When they are more or less towards the wire with their side, which is the orbiting electrons, then they can change the current. The electrons are orbiting, the force is moving. But that alone is not enough. Now in autumn, there are these leaves on the ground, many of them. And there are a kind of blowers, to blow them away. Now, when you direct them at any point, with not a great angle, all you get is the leaves just are blown away to all directions. Even if you move the air stream, they are still blown away to all direction, that movement doesn't cause them to move in one direction. You may try it once.

But when the atoms move towards the wire, or rotate towards the wire, like when the force goes over the electron, then first it pushes it to one direction, then to the opposite direction. And when the force is stronger when it pushes to the opposite direction, the result is a force in one direction, one force minus the other. Just to figure a bit. That's what induction is.

The matter is, it is a very symmetric process, expressed by the Lenz law. So that when there is this process alone, there likely cannot be any overunity. Not quite the same though when there are two processes at the same time. And one is charging the capacitance, charging a capacitance is not the same process as induction.

Now the electrons orbiting the nuclea of the atoms. When these electrons interact with some charges outside, they do work. As the result their energy should decrease, and they should ultimately fall to the nucleus. But they don't. So some energy has to come from outside to keep them orbiting, this is what a common thinking says, right? Now if you ask a quantum physicist, they give you various explanations, which finally still don't explain the thing. One may say, no, this is not how it happens. They say it happens in a different way, but still there is a need for energy to come somewhere, whatever the effect is called.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #171 on: October 22, 2018, 11:37:43 AM »
F6FLT
Right... lose the simulator it's useless. Real experiments done by real people produce real results.

Impossible you say?.
It may help to go over some high school science textbook theory.
...

"Impossible" only in the context of our actual application of our knowledge, and it's very likely our application and not the current knowledge which is at stack.

So far, no alternative theory has produced the slightest energy, the slightest means of transport or the slightest useful product, contrarily to applications of textbook theories. It's at least premature to be immodest with regard to them. I would feel ridiculous to criticize textbook theories whose results are everywhere in the every day life, when I have nothing else to show. It's always the lack of mastery in interpreting what is observed that let the newbies think that they have to reinvent physics and that the genious men of the past in electromagnetism are wrong. I don't believe in wishful thinking about new physics.

That said, it's not "impossible" in absolute: I believe in observed facts and we have the facts, my coils resonate much lower than LCω²=1, so we have a misinterpretation of L or C or both.
A possible answer that came to me last night is that the stored charge in the capacitor goes back and forth along the capacitor dielectric and participates to a displacement current that is not only transverse as in a normal plane capacitor, but also partially directed along the conductors. This would explain a real C and L values higher than those calculated by applying basic methods. It's the first possibility I will explore.

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #171 on: October 22, 2018, 11:37:43 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #172 on: October 22, 2018, 12:53:20 PM »
Hi F6FLT,

Do you have an L meter which is able to measure in the some uH range or below? Because you could check inductance for your 6 m long coax cable at one of its ends when the far ends is shorted. Also, you could check inductance for the bifilar (strip) coil at one of its ends when the two ends at the other end is shorted.

For your RG214 coax (which is a 50 Ohm type) with 106 pF/m the C=6 x 106=636 pF. Using Z2=L/C impedance formula for transmission lines,
the L=C*Z2=636e-12 * 2500= 1.59 uH. It would be good to check the 636 pF cable capacitance with a C meter too becasue some data sheet say it can have 98 or 100 pF/m capacitance. The 1.59 uH gives resonance with the 636 pF at 5 MHz. To get your measured 2.55 MHz resonance, the L should be roughly 4 times of 1.59 uH i.e. 6.36 uH.
Is it possible that there is around 6.36 uH inductance either between the two ends of the shield or between the two ends of the center conductor? You could check the inductance of any one winding in the bifilar coil too.  It is not likely the inductance between the shield ends (or the inner conductor ends) will be around 6.3 uH though.

To be continued.  It would be great you happen to have an LC meter.  8)

Thanks,
Gyula

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #173 on: October 22, 2018, 03:47:51 PM »
Hi Gyula,

I measured the capacitance of the cable with its 2 N-type connectors: 672 pF.
I have no L meter. For the inductance calculated at https://www.eeweb.com/tools/coil-inductance, I got 364 nH. But I just understood my mistake, I had entered 191 mm for the loop diameter instead of 1910 mm!
With the right value, I have now 6.4µH which gives a resonance frequency of 2.43 Mhz very close to that one measured.

So the answer to your question "Is it possible that there is around 6.36 uH inductance" is "yes it is"  :). Thanks.

The strange effect with the flat coil is therefore not reproduced with the coaxial cable. This is a bad news.

So would it be possible that the inductance of the flat coil to be about 587µH instead of some tens of nH as previously thought?
Yes it is!  >:(
I used this method:  http://www.dos4ever.com/inductor/inductor.html
I measured 703 µH.

This gives a resonance frequency a bit lower than measured (28 KHz), but it's the order of magnitude.

Now we are back with the problem of the second resonance at 2330 Khz. How is it possible while LCω² implies 28 KHz?
It's one or the other resonance but not both. Or at 2330KHz we are no more in the quasi-stationary approximation and the resonance is due to propagation phenomena (at a given time, currents and voltages are not the same in the coil)?

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #173 on: October 22, 2018, 03:47:51 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #174 on: October 22, 2018, 04:52:54 PM »
Okay, good. Now it looks like that the bifilar coil operates with a much different self capacitance value when you measure its 2330 kHz resonance. In that case all the 4 winding ends are floating and I think the 703 uH self inductance cannot be influenced by the 55 nF capacitance.   When you drive the bifilar coil from the generator as per you schematic, the 55 nF is inherently connected into the circuit. 
This is because the 55 nF is between the two windings but not across any one of the bifilar windings, ok?
The 2330 kHz resonance should be a parallel resonance for any one of the windings, coming from the 703 uH and a 6.63 pF self capacitance for any one of the windings.
This 6.63 pF is in parallel with the 703 uH winding, I calculated from the normal formula C = 1/(L*ω²).   
What do you think?

Gyula

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #175 on: October 22, 2018, 06:59:51 PM »
Okay, good. Now it looks like that the bifilar coil operates with a much different self capacitance value when you measure its 2330 kHz resonance. In that case all the 4 winding ends are floating and I think the 703 uH self inductance cannot be influenced by the 55 nF capacitance.   When you drive the bifilar coil from the generator as per you schematic, the 55 nF is inherently connected into the circuit. 
This is because the 55 nF is between the two windings but not across any one of the bifilar windings, ok?
The 2330 kHz resonance should be a parallel resonance for any one of the windings, coming from the 703 uH and a 6.63 pF self capacitance for any one of the windings.
This 6.63 pF is in parallel with the 703 uH winding, I calculated from the normal formula C = 1/(L*ω²).   
What do you think?

Gyula

I think it's an interesting idea, very likely correct.
When I simply add 15 cm of wire to the end of a coil wire, at the center of the coil, the resonance frequency shifts by 60 KHz. When it is at the periphery it shifts by 120 KHz. This means that the capacity viewed by the open ends of the coil plays a decisive role in the effect as you suggested.

As the two wires are electrically coupled by 55 nF which is a low impedance at 2330 KHz, and are magnetically coupled because they share the same magnetic field, they must act as if they were only one wire. And indeed I observe the same effect with my monofilar coil.

So now I should be able to make a LTspice model of the bifilar coil.

Another point: when I slide the probe diametrically on the coil, the electric field is maximum near the center, then decreases and cancels out somewhere around the middle (the middle in terms of wire length, because this point is closer to the edge than to the center), then increases again with phase inversion when approaching the periphery but it reaches a final amplitude significantly lower than that in the center.
It seems there is a stationary wave.

It could be interested to design a coil where the lower resonance frequency meets the higher. This could lead to strange effects (I will try with my future LTspice model if I succeed).


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #175 on: October 22, 2018, 06:59:51 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #176 on: October 23, 2018, 07:56:56 AM »
F6FLT, why do you have to make an LTspice model? If there is overunity, LTspice never shows it. Or you have to change all the calculation, in effect you have to write your own simulation.Because this doesn't happen between components. one cannot separate components, like capacitance is everywhere. And it may participate in the very basic process, in the very equation of induction, which just isn't entirely the same as written in LTspice.

I mean, feel free to do whatever you want of course, i just wanted to say that LTspice doesn't model unknown processes, it has equations in it in a way that it can only model what has been known.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #177 on: October 23, 2018, 11:28:54 AM »
Ayeaye, I am well aware that modeling software cannot reveal or manage unknown processes. But until a solid experimental evidence of the contrary, there is no overunity in a bifilar coil, therefore it is modelizable with LTspice. A transmission line also constitutes distributed capacitance and inductance and it's model has been around for a long time.
 
What is experimental evidence? A reproducible protocol that any individual or independent team can implement, and that must have been implemented by several to achieve consensus on the fact. And the strength of the evidence must be proportional to the extraordinary nature of the proclamation. For OU, the least necessary is a looped device. We don't have it.

If you really believe that you are on the right track, you should do everything possible to complete the process by a looped device. On my side, from my last experiments I only see evidence that a bifilar coil obeys common laws of physics and even of electronics. Nevertheless I don't consider that the case is closed. I have yet some ideas to explore, especially in the field of displacement currents in dielectrics of coils.



Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #178 on: October 23, 2018, 11:48:43 AM »
For OU, the least necessary is a looped device. We don't have it.

No, making a looped device is absolutely, completely wrong. We research a natural phenomenon, not  a device. Maybe some succeeded to spin it the way that it is researching a device instead of a phenomenon, but it's completely wrong. When we research  a device, we get an evidence about the device, not about the phenomenon, which may be all the way misleading. If there is one way to make it wrong, then that's making a device.

Looped device, then all my work about measuring power, it's completely useless? Because why, we make looped device, it will work forever, it's that simple, there is nothing to do. All is useless when taking an assumption that doesn't help to get the result. So that makes it much simpler, why bother, why not drink rum instead? That's a real clown logic, but then i really like rum, and it's jolly as well.

Transmission lines, yes, they have some inductance and some capacitance, but the problem is that transmission lines have only a certain amount of inductance and capacitance, and the model is only for that, also only tested for that.

Can you perhaps give a screenshot, of voltages on the coil and on the resistor at resonance?


Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #179 on: October 23, 2018, 02:26:22 PM »
...We research a natural phenomenon, not  a device...
Non sequitur. I know that and I agree. The device is only needed to prove that the "natural phenomenon" allegedly found, is really OU.

I have just finished the LTpice model. For reasons of symmetry, I have split the 55 nF capacity into two 27.5 nF capacitors "Cp" (p for "parallel"), the 6.63 pF coupling the ends of the coil into two 3.6 pF capacitors "Cs" (s for "series", with a small correction of the value), and added 4 capacitors "Cg" (g for ground) of 1 pF to each end of the wires to simulate the capacitive coupling of the coil to the ground. The value of 1 pF is not at all critical. I had to finally adjust the coil inductance that I had roughly evaluated, to 630 µH.

The left side is when the generator is directly connected to the coils. The Cs capacity plays therefore almost no role. The resonance frequency is the lower, 28 KHz, depending mainly on the Cp capacity (Cp1+Cp2).

The right side is when the generator is weakly and capacitively coupled to the coils. I choose 0.01 for the mutual inductance coupling factor, it's not critical. The Cp capacity plays almost no role. The resonance frequency depends mainly on the Cs capacity. Cs is easily influenced by the hand or any added conductor, like my connector that connects the coil wires. The resonance frequency is the higher, near 2300 KHz, depending mainly on the Cs capacity (Cs1+Cs2).

As we can see, all the things that have surprised me until now are perfectly modelized, without any need to introduce new phenomena.

 

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