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Author Topic: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment  (Read 15551 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2018, 12:47:52 AM »
Carroll understands that _instantaneous_ multiplication of voltage times current is correct and remains true whatever the phase angle is between V and I. And that integration of the power waveform over time yields energy in Joules.


But you only have _one_ measurement, a voltage, not two. Are you saying that the measured voltage drop across the resistor (which is parallel to the inductor and remains so during the measurement) can be used for both V and I in the instantaneous multiplication?


Have you rebuilt and remeasured your circuit yet, so that we can interact to determine such things as proper settings of the baselines on your oscilloscope? Properly compensated probes? And etc.


Has anyone else been able to duplicate your OU results? Has anyone besides me even tried?


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2018, 12:47:52 AM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2018, 01:02:20 AM »
But you only have _one_ measurement, a voltage, not two. Are you saying that the measured voltage drop across the resistor (which is parallel to the inductor and remains so during the measurement) can be used for both V and I in the instantaneous multiplication?

I theoretically think that the voltage drop on the saturated transistor should be constant. So during the input part the voltage on R2 should be the power supply voltage, minus voltage on R3, minus the voltage drop on the saturated transistor. Which i chose to be 0.3 volts, as this is written on the c945 datasheet. And knowing that voltage, the current through R2 can be calculated. But i calculated it so only in the last code that i wrote, in my experiment i measured voltages both on R3 and R2.

F6FLT is trying using the copper tape coil, hope he writes the results.

This method is important, no matter whether overunity or not overunity, this is a general method to measure the energy efficiency of a coil.

PS The following is where one can try, like bc, online linux terminal. I tried copy and paste works, for pasting into it, right click the "Paste Here" below. I just did all the output calculation from above there. The trick is  cat > file  then paste, then press ctrl-z, creates file. then  cat file | less  views file end with q. > file  sends output to file,  < file  takes input from file. All there is to it. Hehe, there is even python.

https://bellard.org/jslinux/vm.html?url=https://bellard.org/jslinux/buildroot-x86.cfg

« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 03:31:31 AM by ayeaye »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2018, 05:46:09 AM »
Can you discuss how your "coil efficiency" measurement relates to the more commonly used coil quality factor called Q  which is the ratio of the inductive reactance to the resistance of the coil ? That is, it compares the energy reversibly stored in the coil, to the energy irretrievably lost to the system due to resistance, em radiation, etc.


I should think, at first guess, that an OU coil should have a very high Q at the frequency of interest.


https://www.radio-electronics.com/info/formulae/q-quality-factor/inductor-q.php

http://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/ringdownq/ringdownq.shtml

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2018, 05:46:09 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2018, 06:06:43 AM »
Can you discuss how your "coil efficiency" measurement relates to the more commonly used coil quality factor called Q  which is the ratio of the inductive reactance to the resistance of the coil ?

The way that it does not describe everything. This experiment, and doing calculations from the oscilloscope results, just shows everything about the coil. No abstraction shows everything.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2018, 07:46:24 AM »
The way that it does not describe everything. This experiment, and doing calculations from the oscilloscope results, just shows everything about the coil. No abstraction shows everything.
No, Q is not an "abstraction", any more than is inductive reactance. It is a well defined parameter of coils, and I've given you links to an introduction to the concept and also one of many different experimental means of MEASURING the Q of a coil. Your experiment does not show "everything" about the coil at all. Your measurement does not yield the coil's self-inductance, its distributed capacitance, its self-resonant frequency, its reactance at the test frequency, etc. I'm not sure it is even a valid measurement of anything.


Once again, I ask you to discuss Q as it pertains to your particular coil, and what to expect in terms of Q for a coil that returns more energy than it is pulsed with initially.

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2018, 07:46:24 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2018, 03:00:00 PM »
No, Q is not an "abstraction"

Yes it is abstraction, it doesn't stand for everything.

The DC resistance we already measured, it's so small that can be disregarded. Skin effect can be calculated too, and i think it's small. I don't know that there are significant eddy currents in the air core.

But ok, if Q is the only thing you are interested in, then you are not interested in this experiment.

This experiment is about researching the induction, not everything else as Q. Though this can be seen too. Induction is the phenomenon to research, and this experiment shows everything about induction.

But if this experiment is not what interests you, then don't do it. I just don't want to read the forum every morning just to see yet another post from you saying that you don't really like this experiment, this is not what interests me.

I want to know some other things from other people here. What equipment do you use to do experiments like this, what oscilloscope? Desktop DSO, USB, analog, things like DSO138? Two channels, one channel? I think DSO138 is too imprecise and not capable of necessary frequencies, but then i don't exclude anything. I don't see that anyone uses DSO138 though. Does it make sense for me to do it using analog oscilloscope, yes i can do it and it can be done precisely, though it's more work. But does anyone do it, is there any value to anyone to show how to do it with analog oscilloscope? All i have is an old analog oscilloscope, which is the cheapest option for experiments like this maybe, so should be affordable for everyone. It looks though that most use desktop digital oscilloscopes, so maybe i should have one, a cheapest one. I don't think though that i can afford one in any foreseeable future. Even the cheapest one like owon sds1022. It's like the cheapest usb oscilloscope owon vds1022, hardly ever more than 5 mhz, only made as a desktop oscilloscope, which is in several ways better. Rigol i think i cannot even dream about.

Like i saw one who showed one's experiment with a pancake coil here. I didn't really understand what this experiment was about, there was no circuit diagram or anything. But i noticed that one only had a multimeter. Better get an oscilloscope, even an old analog one, even DSO138 may be better than no oscilloscope. I saw another experiment of a pancake coil charging a battery, that had a very similar coil, was it yours? Like a coil with overunity should in theory be something like, you send a signal in, and instead of consuming the signal, it generates one. Were very interesting to see with oscilloscope what was going on there. Like to see whether this was really the case, the batteries are tricky, and especially when using sharp pulses. Like Bedini liked to do a lot, they generate surface charges, that is creating ions only near the electrodes. Which increase the voltage but don't contain much energy. When using batteries, they should also be discharged, measuring the energy. And slowly, not creating residue on the electrodes, and then also see for some time that their voltage doesn't increase. Something that Bedini completely omitted.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2018, 04:12:13 AM »
I got the figure below by the following when running gnuplot, it's rather tricky. I think you got an idea. One sure wants to find some simple plotting program, but this is what they often are. This is a verbatim copy from the TinselKoala's oscilloscope screen.

Quote
set xtics 20
set grid xtics lt 1 lw 2 lc rgb "#bbbbbb"
set grid ytics lt 1 lw 2 lc rgb "#bbbbbb"
plot "alllist.txt" with lines linewidth 3 linetype rgb "blue"


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2018, 04:12:13 AM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2018, 12:47:03 PM »
I have just started testing, no serious measurements (my "lab" is now a mess...).
The bifilar coil is made of two 30 m X 6 mm copper tapes (like these but with non conductive adhesive https://www.amazon.co.uk/UEETEK-Conductive-Soldering-Electrical-Grounding/dp/B0755BHTC5, separated by 30 m X 8 mm adhesive tapes https://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-CODIRATO-Strong-Adhesive-Craft(6/dp/B07FZ5KH6Y.

Inductance: 2x 0.76 mH, resistance : 2x 5.4 Ω, capacitance: 55 nF.
The first resonance is at 1.790 MHz, obviously it is the frequency corresponding to a quater wave length of 30 m which is the tape length, corrected by the velocity factor.

Next step when time permits...

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2018, 04:43:55 PM »
Yes it is abstraction, it doesn't stand for everything.

The DC resistance we already measured, it's so small that can be disregarded. Skin effect can be calculated too, and i think it's small. I don't know that there are significant eddy currents in the air core.

But ok, if Q is the only thing you are interested in, then you are not interested in this experiment.

This experiment is about researching the induction, not everything else as Q. Though this can be seen too. Induction is the phenomenon to research, and this experiment shows everything about induction.

But if this experiment is not what interests you, then don't do it. I just don't want to read the forum every morning just to see yet another post from you saying that you don't really like this experiment, this is not what interests me.

I want to know some other things from other people here. What equipment do you use to do experiments like this, what oscilloscope? Desktop DSO, USB, analog, things like DSO138? Two channels, one channel? I think DSO138 is too imprecise and not capable of necessary frequencies, but then i don't exclude anything. I don't see that anyone uses DSO138 though. Does it make sense for me to do it using analog oscilloscope, yes i can do it and it can be done precisely, though it's more work. But does anyone do it, is there any value to anyone to show how to do it with analog oscilloscope? All i have is an old analog oscilloscope, which is the cheapest option for experiments like this maybe, so should be affordable for everyone. It looks though that most use desktop digital oscilloscopes, so maybe i should have one, a cheapest one. I don't think though that i can afford one in any foreseeable future. Even the cheapest one like owon sds1022. It's like the cheapest usb oscilloscope owon vds1022, hardly ever more than 5 mhz, only made as a desktop oscilloscope, which is in several ways better. Rigol i think i cannot even dream about.

Like i saw one who showed one's experiment with a pancake coil here. I didn't really understand what this experiment was about, there was no circuit diagram or anything. But i noticed that one only had a multimeter. Better get an oscilloscope, even an old analog one, even DSO138 may be better than no oscilloscope. I saw another experiment of a pancake coil charging a battery, that had a very similar coil, was it yours? Like a coil with overunity should in theory be something like, you send a signal in, and instead of consuming the signal, it generates one. Were very interesting to see with oscilloscope what was going on there. Like to see whether this was really the case, the batteries are tricky, and especially when using sharp pulses. Like Bedini liked to do a lot, they generate surface charges, that is creating ions only near the electrodes. Which increase the voltage but don't contain much energy. When using batteries, they should also be discharged, measuring the energy. And slowly, not creating residue on the electrodes, and then also see for some time that their voltage doesn't increase. Something that Bedini completely omitted.
You should be a politician. You dodge the issues quite well and are clearly adept at generating lines of off-topic verbiage. I truly wonder: how many people reading here have gone through any of the lines of code you've posted?


I've asked you twice now, nicely, to discuss the issue of Q as it relates to "overunity" from a coil. You have no clue, it's obvious from your imitation of a politician.


You should be _thankful_ towards me and others like me, because without us you'd just be posting line after line of code that nobody reads or cares about.



You should also be aware of the errors introduced by your processing. You cannot have a result that is more precise than the _least precise_ value that goes into a calculation. I reminded you of this before and your response indicated that you don't actually understand the concept of significant digits and the issue of precision versus accuracy.



If you don't want to read my posts in this thread, you can always place me on your Ignore list. Only people who are interested in the truth need see my posts.





Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2018, 04:43:55 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2018, 05:34:52 PM »
I've asked you twice now, nicely, to discuss the issue of Q as it relates to "overunity" from a coil. You have no clue, it's obvious from your imitation of a politician.

Who is the politician here, me, or you who just tried to distract? It looks like that you project.

I discussed the issue of Q, i said i think the effects of dc resistance, skin effect and eddy currents are all likely relatively small. I don't say it's not important for overunity, but it's a side issue. Do you want to replace this research with the conventional Q measurements, ending and ditching it all together? If anything is a politics then that is. Ah yes, and accuracy of measurements, who denies the immense importance of it.

BTW this experiment is also discussed in that board

http://open-source-energy.org/?board=92.0

« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 09:35:04 PM by ayeaye »


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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #115 on: October 03, 2018, 09:25:24 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2018, 01:20:43 AM »
I hope you will at least agree that the turn-off time of the transistor is critical. The faster turnoff the better, right? This is how we maximize the return pulse from a coil, by cutting off the energizing power as rapidly as possible.


It turns out that the 2sc945 is really slow to turn off in the unmodified circuit. Below behold some scope traces. Yes, I've spent another afternoon on this project, while still waiting for AyeAye to reproduce his circuit and scopetraces so we can engage in some interactive testing.


First trace below is the unmodified circuit with the 2sc945 transistor. The blue trace is the Vce, collector voltage with respect to emitter. When this trace is High the transistor is Off. The yellow trace is the signal from the FG to the base of the transistor. You can clearly see the turnoff delay and the rise time of the collector voltage.



Second trace below is the circuit modified with a 1k pulldown resistor between the transistor base and emitter, still using the 2sc945 transistor.


Third trace below is circuit with 1k pulldown but transistor is now MPSH10. This is a _much_ better result in terms of turnoff delay and rise time, and results in a larger coil return pulse when the circuit is tested as originally specified.



(I'm a political man, but I practice what I preach...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOPDzD_P9gg

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #117 on: October 04, 2018, 02:57:48 AM »
Thank you TinselKoala, we will go ahead.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2018, 02:03:42 AM »
It turns out that the 2sc945 is really slow to turn off in the unmodified circuit. Below behold some scope traces.

Yes, i noticed that myself, the long delay of c945 switching off is actually very weird. MPSH10 is certainly better, mostly because the slope is much sharper.

With oscilloscope i measured that my power supply voltage is 11.6 V, and it remains consant all the time.

It is actually not easy to take the analog oscilloscope screen images, as seen on the figure below, this is almost the best one can get. And yes, the brightness of traces is decreased for them to be sharper, yet this is all one can get. With a web cam, one may get some better images with some special cam perhaps.

My 555 timer somehow doesn't work any more, Arduino is the only other thing i got, so i'm now using that instead. And yes, i'm using it the way that it always stays connected to the computer, so i can always change the frequency and duty cycle from the terminal on the computer. It is not good to connect the circuit ground to the computer ground, but with the R2 resistor 1k, it is completely safe. But one should be very careful with it, and otherwise use Arduino with potentiometers and not connected to the usb or such, as they often do.

This screen image is of the voltage on the collector of the transistor, oscilloscope ground there is the circuit ground, the frequency was 100 kHz, duty cycle was 30%, time scale was 1 us and y scale was 2 V.

As you can see, the voltage on the open transistor starts almost from 0.8 V, and then drops to 0.4 V. By the c945 datasheet, the maximum voltage on the saturated transistor is 0.3 V, so maybe the transistor was not fully open.

Based on the above, i think that one can consider that the voltage on the open transistor was 0.6 V, and that it is always constant when the transistor is open. Thus my last scripts that were written assuming that the voltage on the open transistor is constant, can be used, and only the voltage on R3 should be measured with the oscilloscope. Except that i considered there that the voltage on the open transistor is 0.3 V, as it should be on the saturated transistor according to the c945 datasheet, this should be replaced with 0.6 V.

This makes the measurements also more precise, as R2 is relatively large, and a small change of voltage on it does change a lot. But calculating the input part instead from the power supply voltage, the voltage drop 0.6 V on the transistor, and the voltage on R3, is quite precise. Not to talk about measuring two traces instead of one, which even on digital oscilloscopes where waveform data can be taken from the oscilloscope, may cause some error of measurement or calculations.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment
« Reply #119 on: October 05, 2018, 06:39:24 PM »
Photographing an oscilloscope screen does take some practice. Keep trying, you'll get it eventually.


Here's one important thing: If you are photographing for quantitative purposes, you _must_ indicate where the channel baseline is on the screen. That is, you have to switch the channel input coupling to "ground" for a moment to show exactly where the channel's baseline is set, before turning the input coupling back to DC (or rarely AC) to make your measurement photo. Otherwise nobody knows where you are measuring from.


The scopeshot below is just a miscellaneous one from my files, showing stable display of two unrelated frequencies. I think the graticule and trace are clear enough for precise quantitative work, even though this image isn't intended for that (which is why I didn't bother to indicate baselines).

 

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