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Author Topic: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design  (Read 3895 times)

Offline Floor

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Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« on: May 26, 2018, 08:40:23 PM »
There are only drawings. 

I have not done any builds or testing of the mechanical inout to electric output.

However, I can demonstrate that there is little (magnetically caused) mechanical load
on the device when there is no load upon the electic output.

please find the attached file "ElectricMethod 3.pdf"  below.

                 floor

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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 01:01:32 AM »
Should it selfstart to rotate or why should it rotate ?

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 01:15:15 AM »
Should it selfstart to rotate or why should it rotate ?
Sorry hadn´t read the PDF file...well it depends when you are rotating that and draw current from the induction, how thecurrent will break or help the rotation... Normally you have lenz law, which will break or drag the rotation down...Can you violate Lentz law with it ?

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 01:15:15 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 04:47:54 AM »
Quote "Can you violate Lentz law with it ?" End quote  from Hartiberlin

Thats the $64 question, but I don't have that answer.

   PS
   pages 15 -17 of the pdf file are I think a flawed / incomplete design.

       regards
              floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2018, 11:49:25 AM »
some drawings redone / modified

   floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2018, 11:49:25 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2018, 02:13:38 PM »
There are only drawings. 

I have not done any builds or testing of the mechanical inout to electric output.

However, I can demonstrate that there is little (magnetically caused) mechanical load
on the device when there is no load upon the electic output.

please find the attached file "ElectricMethod 3.pdf"  below.

                 floor
Thanks for a nice and well done description of your idea. 10 points for that one!


The general answer to the question wether it works or not, boils down to how the coils are loaded.
A loaded coil resist magnetic change. Well known issue in generators.
Wether the coils is winded around magnets or a simple iron bar, does not change the preconditions on how the loaded coil respond to the changing magnetic field. The magnets you wind up the magnetic wire on, will only cause a magnetic bias which will cause the output signal to be distorted. This happens because the permanent magnet core is already magnetized, and adding more magnetism, as when the rotor magnet points its south to the stators north at 0°, it will most probably not increase the magnetic field through the coil as much as when you use an iron bar. Because the point of magnetic saturation in the magnets are almost already reached at 0°.
On the contrary, when the magnets are in repulsion mode (after 180 ° rotation) you weaken the magnetic field with greater amplitude than the increased magnetic field at 0°.


So the output signal will not have an equal curve on the positive and negative amplitude. The coil, however, will resist rotation more around 180° area than around 0° area. The total drag will therfor correspond perfectly to the output load.


Br. Vidar

Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 10:09:33 PM »
Hi Vidar

There is a changing magnetic field near a conductor, there fore a current flows through the conductor.

Initiate and / or expand the magnetic field and the current begins or increases and flows one direction.

Remove and / or shrink the field and the electric current flow decreases then flows in the direction opposite
to its original direction.

Expansion and contraction of the magnetic fields in these designs is in sync with magnet to
magnet proximity ... approach / retreat. 

There is never an instantaneous shutting off or turning on of the magnetic fields or currents.
There is no "fly back" from a near instantaneous field collapse .  But Lentz law is still applies.

   P.S.     two revised drawings below

regards
                         floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 10:09:33 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 10:11:19 PM »
Notes ....

Lenz law

not just magnetic attraction and magnetic repulsion balancing  during the rotation.
...................................
the magnitude of an induced voltage is (in part), dependent upon a magnetic fields speed of motion,
                          and / or
a fields speed of expansion or collapse while passing through a conductor, is it not ?
..................................
inductive "kick back" of one coil, fed to the start up inductance of the other coil ?
but are the voltage PEAKS in sink or are they 180 out ? or what ?
....................................
one field through a coil needs to be collapsing, while another field though an other coil  is expanding ?
                                                             OR ?
not just series electric polarity, but a COLLAPSING magnetic field, induced electric voltage polarity, connected in series (+ to -), to (an EXPANDING ?) magnetic field, induced electric voltage polarity ?
                                              OR SHOULD IT BE
not just series electric polarity, but a COLLAPSING magnetic field, induced electric voltage polarity, connected in series (+ to -), to (a COLLAPSING ?) magnetic field, induced electric voltage polarity ?

inductive kick back of one coil, fed to the start up inductance of the other coil ?
should not, the voltages PEAKS (ALTHOUGH STILL + TO -) of those two coils,
be made to be in sink ? and not 180 out (as are the voltage polarities) or what ?
 
Note ....  there is no sudden disconnect of the electric currents generated in these rotating designs
nor an abrupt break away of the magnetic fields from the coils.  No extremely rapid collapse
of the magnetic field, for example... as there would be during a complete disconnect of a
power supply from a coil that it was supplying.

can there be a neutralization of Lenz actions by the creation of a balance between Lenz
actions ?

   just pondering .....  NOT LOOKING FOR "PAT ANSWERS" unless, you personally, have
already demonstrated a way to make further advantage of the Frodrik Lenz law.  Just pondering.

Please look at these magnet set interactions attached below as "Force balancing demo"
drawings /JPGs  numbers 1 through 4.


                     floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 12:46:08 PM »
copied and pasted here by floor


Re: Modified GoToLuc Design
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2021, 09:04:03 PM »


quote from LankaIV
"Hello Floor,


You present this magnetic stack with shielding relatively "static/motionless" so I will analog motive  present :


https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19660419&CC=US&NR=3247407A&KC=A


the wheel to see as the shield


Keep it well !


Sincere


OCWL"
The end of the quote

same patent here at google patents, expired..

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3247407A/en?oq=US3247407+(A)

                 floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 12:46:08 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2021, 02:10:51 PM »
consider this
 in general...

Attraction forces are dominant over repelling forces when both are at close distance.
Repelling forces are dominant over attracting forces when both are at far distance.

At some range of distance between near and far they are equal.
That neutral  / balanced range of distance varies in one particular kind of magnet
arrangement from,  some other particular kind of arrangement.

Related video   ;)  @
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtdhWltSIg
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 06:20:29 PM by Floor »

Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 05:32:46 PM »
Thanks for a nice and well done description of your idea. 10 points for that one!


The general answer to the question wether it works or not, boils down to how the coils
are loaded. A loaded coil resist magnetic change. Well known issue in generators.
Wether the coils is winded around magnets or a simple iron bar, does not change the
preconditions on how the loaded coil respond to the changing magnetic field. The
magnets you wind up the magnetic wire on, will only cause a magnetic bias which
will cause the output signal to be distorted. This happens because the permanent
magnet core is already magnetized, and adding more magnetism, as when the rotor
magnet points its south to the stators north at 0°, it will most probably not increase
the magnetic field through the coil as much as when you use an iron bar. Because
the point of magnetic saturation in the magnets are almost already reached at 0°.
On the contrary, when the magnets are in repulsion mode (after 180 ° rotation) you
weaken the magnetic field with greater amplitude than the increased magnetic field at 0°.


So the output signal will not have an equal curve on the positive and negative amplitude.
The coil, however, will resist rotation more around 180° area than around 0° area. The
total drag will therfor correspond perfectly to the output load.


Br. Vidar

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Thanks Vidar

"The general answer to the question wether it works or not, boils down to how
the coils are loaded."
        No.

Good observations, but no.

Typical assumptions / entrained points of view.

1. A primary goal is to "defeat" Lenz law.
2. It's always best to maximize what ever magnetic forces are involved.
3. Lenz law must be defeated in order to arrive at work from magnets
once electric elements come majorly into play within a design ?

   Leave these assumption at the door please
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
"A loaded coil resist magnetic change. Well known issue in generators."

It is not an "issue",
It is not "the issue",
It is not "my issue",
                          it is simply a characteristic.
        please Drop it.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
"Wether the coils is winded around magnets or a simple iron bar, does not
change the preconditions on how the loaded coil respond to the changing
magnetic field."

Again assumption as to the points of the presentation.
                     Drop it.   
Assumption that Lenz effect must be defeated.
                      Drop it.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
"The magnets you wind up the magnetic wire on, will only cause a magnetic bias
which will cause the output signal to be distorted."

"only cause a magnetic bias"
     Only?

"will cause the output signal to be distorted."

Call it distorted if you wish. 

"distorted"   I will call it changed.  ie. diminished /  or increased.

Also let us concern out selves with output as sine waves, and wave form at some later point,
shall we ?

Sure, balancing some things, is sort of the point here.
   
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
"This happens because the permanent magnet core is already magnetized,
and adding more magnetism, as when the rotor magnet points its south to the
stators north at 0°, it will most probably not increase the magnetic field through
the coil as much as when you use an iron bar. "

Yes... but your assumption here,  is that a maximization at this point in the
interactions will give us the maximum desired benefit (final output).

   please drop this assumption,
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Because the point of magnetic saturation in the magnets are almost already
reached at 0°.

Assumption that saturation in the magnets is almost already reached.
Assumption that saturation is a goal ?
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

  fresh eyes ?

  br
  floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 05:32:46 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 06:58:24 PM »
Design Variation

Note...

Electricmethod ver. 3-D-3-1.jpg
and
Electricmethod ver. 3-D-3-2.jpg


Note...
Incorrect statement in the drawings below as " identical units with a common axle."

   floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2021, 07:20:46 PM »
This design might be considerably more "efficient" if
the near point in the distance between the poles of the armature magnets
and the fixed magnet poles, are considerably greater than as is illustrated.

Weaker interactions, yet more efficient.

   best wishes
         floor

  PS
   Oh !
    I forgot to mention, its O.U.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 05:23:56 PM by Floor »

Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 03:54:08 PM »
And if its not O.U., lets keep going / modify it until it is.

There is plenty to do, explore and enjoy.
   Game is not over.

               floor


Offline Floor

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Re: Permanent magnets and coils electricity generation design
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2021, 05:12:53 PM »
Offset repelling and attracting by different amounts.

 

OneLink