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Author Topic: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon  (Read 3755 times)

Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2018, 09:04:49 PM »
...nobody going to help us except ourselves

You have hit the nail on the head. But the majority of people (even those who claim to be FE researchers) prefer to assume that the word 'ourselves' in that sentence means somebody else in the group.  ;)

Do you agree with Germano's arguments?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2018, 09:04:49 PM »

Offline vasik041

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2018, 09:28:35 PM »
Quote
Do you agree with Germano's arguments?

Why should I agree ? :)Electric field was experimentally measured by two independent labs. It is exists.
And more (probably it is radical :) - I think that Second law is more like superstition or religious belief.There are so many evidence against it, only ignorant or politically/financially etc motivated people can argue about it.And it is funny that astronomer talk about this. What about new galaxies? forming starts? Isn't it decreasing of entropy ? There are many other examples closer to us...
BR,-V.


Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2018, 09:30:37 PM »
A poll has been added to this thread where you can place your bets on the horses.  ;D
Who is going to win the race?
Dr. Sheehan and his supporters, or the debunkers and their followers?

The results of the poll can be viewed after submitting your vote.

Regards,
Zoltan

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2018, 09:30:37 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline memoryman

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2018, 10:00:20 PM »
Please correct spelling errors in the poll.

Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2018, 11:56:03 AM »
Please correct spelling errors in the poll.

Done! Thanks for the heads up. The idea of the poll came up on the fly when I was in a hurry, and the copy-paste of typos just made it worse.

But I hope readers realize that English is not my first language (I am Hungarian). I have learned it on my own, without attending any courses. Therefore, there will be many typos (and grammatical errors) in my posts for which I am not going to apologize (or even bother to correct them), because they are irrelevant when we are talking about FE. This is not a forum about hair splitting English grammar or the fine art of poetry that would be all about proper spelling. By the way, I have seen many native English speakers who write worse than I do, with more typos…

Putting the hair splitting exercise aside, how about you finding the logical/scientific errors (instead of typos) in Germano's paper? That we would highly appreciate. In fact Nonlinear (and we as well) is eagerly waiting for your explanations. Do you want to look important? Here is your chance.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2018, 11:56:03 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline vasik041

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2018, 07:07:49 AM »
 Based on number answers to the poll this topic not too popular :)
My observations suggest that most people don’t bother reading texts longer that half a page nowadays.
I think that one wrong assumption in Germano's paper is comparing p-n junction with two different metals “junction”. I put quotes because it is completely different system.
“A p–n junction is a boundary or interface between two types of semiconductor materials, p-type and n-type, inside a single crystal of semiconductor.”
(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%E2%80%93n_junction)
 

Offline Nonlinear

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2018, 03:41:34 PM »
I voted for the 3rd option 'totally confused'.  :-\

Why are you expecting an explanation from memoryman? Based on his previous posts on this forum, he is just bossing around bullying people as if he were a great authority. He hasn't got a clue about this subject, otherwise he would have already started to explain the mistakes in Germano's paper, instead of typos.  ::)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2018, 03:41:34 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2018, 07:09:03 PM »
Based on number answers to the poll this topic not too popular :)

Good observation. The poll serves multiple purposes. Besides giving an insight into the opinions of people about the science part, it also serves as a kind of traffic- and genuine interest 'barometer'. Tell me one reason why this topic supposed to be popular on this forum (assuming we live in a decent world), and I will tell you ten reasons why it can't be popular (in our real world of the evil and mean).

My observations suggest that most people don’t bother reading texts longer that half a page nowadays.

Yes, they are the newly evolved super human species called homo facebookus, with an attention span of about 5 minutes.
https://www.trackvia.com/blog/productivity/truth-shrinking-attention-span/

There is always an excuse for this, like “I am extremely busy”, which might even be true. But then what is the benefit from scattering one's attention into 101 unrelated interests that don't last longer than 10 minutes each at a time? Well, it is the addiction of the 'monkey mind' that is constantly looking for novelty, excitement, and entertainment (gimme a jolt of dopamine).

Dopamine jolt behind internet addiction

https://www.ft.com/content/27514afc-5444-11e2-9d25-00144feab49a

It is seeking happiness in the observed world where it actually doesn't exists, but that is another story… If one wants to achieve any success in anything, then it is better to choose only one or two subjects of interest, and spend on them as much time as it requires to master them. Readers who are loath to read even a single article to the end are of no use to the cause anyway.

I think that one wrong assumption in Germano's paper is comparing p-n junction with two different metals “junction”. I put quotes because it is completely different system.
“A p–n junction is a boundary or interface between two types of semiconductor materials, p-type and n-type, inside a single crystal of semiconductor.”

I wouldn't blame Germano for this comparison, because in principle he is right about the fact that the internal electric field at the junction boundary in the depletion zone uses the same build-up mechanism in both dissimilar metal-metal junctions, and n-p semiconductor junctions.

A single crystal semiconductor is generally used in diodes in order to avoid contamination of the joining surfaces, internal imperfections, reduce dissipative losses, make production simple and economical, and improve characteristics. But theoretically, if you would have two such single crystals one doped p and the other n type with perfectly smooth surfaces, you could reproduce the same n-p depletion region, and junction potential difference by pressing them together to make a diode, as if they were a single crystal. Actually this is not only possible in theory, but it has been already accomplished in practice as well. Here is a relevant patent that explains how to do it:

Method of tightly joining two semiconductor substrates
http://www.freepatentsonline.net/4962062.pdf

Another old patent that supports this analogy used by Germano is about a metal-metal diode array that uses dissimilar metals to form diodes and rectify thermal noise. This patent of Brown M. Charles III also claims to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics by converting thermal electrical noise into electrical power. Unfortunately, the estimated power density doesn't look too promising to give it great practical significance.

Diode Array
http://www.freepatentsonline.net/3890161.pdf

Also, you can create contact potential difference by twisting together two wires made of dissimilar metals, like a thermocouple. The potential difference will be present, but the contact resistance might be too large for certain purposes. Therefore even in case of metal-metal junctions it is preferable to either electroplate one metal on the other, or join them together by some other thermal method (like spot welding).

But here is a crucial question: if the contact potential difference is present in both n-p diodes, and thermocouples as well, then why can't we measure them with a digital multimeter of decent quality?

Do you know the answer to this? If you give the right answer, then we might be able to find a way around this obstacle, and measure it in another way. Finally this is the main trump card of Germano, namely the claim that there isn't any electric field in the vacuum between the facing semiconductor faces of Sheehan's diode. If you prove this to be false by an acceptably accurate macroscopic measurement, then the ultimate and only one real authority, mother Nature will give her final verdict about who is right and who is wrong. (a hint: the explanation can be found online, google is your friend).

Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2018, 07:32:44 PM »
I voted for the 3rd option 'totally confused'.  :-\
Why are you expecting an explanation from memoryman?

OK, I see that you are loosing patience and want to read the explanations now. We are not waiting for memoryman any longer, his pride prevented him from even saying that he can't explain Germano's mistakes, and we should not wait for that… Therefore we are going to proceed with the explanations, as you can see from my last response to Vasik. A bit more patience, and hopefully your confusion will disappear soon.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2018, 07:32:44 PM »
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Offline memoryman

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2018, 07:39:26 PM »
" his pride prevented him from even saying that he can't explain Germano's mistakes" maybe there are no mistakes.
You guys are funny. I will look at the documents when I decide; not when you want it.
It has a very low priority to me.

Offline vasik041

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2018, 07:54:11 PM »
Quote
So our PN junction behaves like a charged capacitor
(from https://www.quora.com/What-is-contact-potential-in-pn-junction-diode)


It is difficult to measure because capacitance of PN junction is very small (it made small on purpose, capacitance in normal operation is unwanted effect).
-V.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2018, 07:54:11 PM »
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Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2018, 09:12:43 PM »
"So our PN junction behaves like a charged capacitor "
 (from https://www.quora.com/What-is-contact-potential-in-pn-junction-diode)

It is difficult to measure because capacitance of PN junction is very small (it made small on purpose, capacitance in normal operation is unwanted effect).

Your quoted page gives a nice explanation about what the contact potential difference is in a p-n junction, but it doesn't explain why we can't measure that with a DMM. The statement that it behaves like a charged capacitor does not explain why you can't measure the say 0.7V built-in potential difference between the two terminals of the diode with a simple voltmeter attached. Why can't you just connect a resistor to it and use it as a battery?

The capacitance is very small indeed, and the stored charge will quickly get discharged via the voltmeter's inner resistance. But your explanation assumes that when this capacitor gets discharged by the voltmeter, then there is nothing to recharge it. Current stops flowing.

Important question: does the built-in potential difference disappear inside the depletion region when you discharge this capacitor?

Offline Nonlinear

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2018, 01:45:32 PM »

Yes, they are the newly evolved super human species called homo facebookus, with an attention span of about 5 minutes.
https://www.trackvia.com/blog/productivity/truth-shrinking-attention-span/



LOL, that is funny and sad at the same time.  ;D Folks, this is a serious problem, we should stop using facebook. If anyone disagrees, watch this video:
You Will Wish You Watched This Before You Started Using Social Media | The Twisted Truth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmEDAzqswh8&feature=youtu.be

“But here is a crucial question: if the contact potential difference is present in both n-p diodes, and thermocouples as well, then why can't we measure them with a digital multimeter of decent quality?”

Dr. D’Abramo’s paper confuses me, but using Google doesn’t require a PhD. Hopefully vasik041 will not mind if I interject with the answer. Google: “why can we not measure diode contact potential” without quotation marks, and bingo, there is your answer in the first hit!

Semiconductors: Why can't the built-in potential across the depletion region of a p-n diode be measured externally?
https://www.quora.com/Semiconductors-Why-cant-the-built-in-potential-across-the-depletion-region-of-a-p-n-diode-be-measured-externally

“Important question: does the built-in potential difference disappear inside the depletion region when you discharge this capacitor?”

Nope, I don’t think so. It disappears only if an exact same external forward voltage is applied to the junction.

Offline ZL

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2018, 03:19:10 PM »
Excellent find Nonlinear! Not because that page:
https://www.quora.com/Semiconductors-Why-cant-the-built-in-potential-across-the-depletion-region-of-a-p-n-diode-be-measured-externally

(or Quora in general) would be the clearest, most reliable, and most accurate source of true scientific information, but because it also gives us a glimpse into the anatomy of academic disinformation. When we are dealing with FE we can't separate the search for true scientific- and technical information from the need for constant critical discernment, keeping in mind the possibility of deliberate disinformation by the academics (and other shills) who try to hide and obfuscate certain scientific facts that are crucial for FE inventions.

I could have answered your request for explaining the errors in Germano's paper by simply writing a similar paper (might do that later as well), and uploading it for you. But that would have given you and other interested readers only dry data, which readers might not understand any better than they do the papers of Germano, and Daniel. For genuine FE researchers it is more important to realize that there is such thing as deliberate academic disinformation perpetuated specifically to prevent the discovery of anything that could violate the laws of thermodynamics (especially the first one - creating energy from seemingly nothing, or annihilating it). One also needs a way, a method by which such disinformation can be suspected, recognized, and dismissed in favour of true scientific facts that may be under attack and suppression. Let's demonstrate such a method for this case.

On your quoted web-page there are 6 answers at the present, and there is a controversy; they present contradictory explanations. Some are arguing that:
Quote
...there is no voltage across the depletion region to measure...
they follow the line (and agenda) of Germano. But there are at least 2 correct explanations as well (following the correct explanations of Dr. Sheehan), one of which claims that:
Quote
...Now this potential cannot be measured directly by connecting a voltmeter across the diode. The reason for this is that as soon a connection is made between the diode terminal and a conductor (metal), a Schottky diode is created at the metal-p/n junction. The two Schottky diodes, created at the p-terminal metal interface and n-terminal metal interface effectively reverse the effect of the built-in potential. As a result, you would see zero potential difference across the diode.

Now after pointing out the chosen correct answer, let's take a look into the anatomy of deception present on that page, and then later let's explain how and why we have arrived to the conclusion that the later answer must be correct. Nonlinear, can you please analyse the case of the wrong answer? Who gave the wrong answers? Do they have college/university education and/or scientific title? Are they members of the academy? If they claim to have such credentials, then can we verify and confirm the validity of these claims? In an online forum anybody could claim any credentials if anonymous...

How and why did the wrong answer end up at the top of the list, represented as the “chosen truth” by consensus? Who voted it to the top of the list (do you recognize any pattern of demographics, qualifications etc?). Do you recognize any nefarious agenda? If yes, then exactly what are they trying to hide and why? You know what I mean, just analyse the page and situation, and based on your knowledge what insights can you gain regarding the controversy? Other readers are also invited to present their insights.

Offline vasik041

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Re: A Solid-State Maxwell Demon
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2018, 09:18:24 PM »
 This is probably offtopic here but it very well describes situation in mainstream science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKHUaNAxsTg


Charged capacitor with zero voltage...very typical :)

 

 

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