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Author Topic: Brilliant concept, but will it work?  (Read 3234 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2018, 07:44:39 AM »
I was asked to put in a message from #magneat, as he for some reason got a moderator message when he tried to post here.
Just so everybody knows:
I have not put in any moderations to this thread. Every contribution and questions are welcome.


Here is the message from Magnetman:
"Hello everybody !
As I see the device - 2 disks, located at some angle to each other.
Each disk rotates on its axis.
N pipe pairs are fixed between the discs.
In each pair of pipes one slides inside the other through the ring seals (minimum - 2) with minimal friction.
From the other end these tubes are SEALANT, and fixed through the ball joints on their disks.
All pairs of pipes are connected together by flexible tubes for free flow of air - the pressure in all pipes is constant.
This design does not need side walls - it just needs to be immersed in water.


with respect."


« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 10:25:11 AM by Low-Q »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2018, 07:44:39 AM »

Offline broli

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2018, 10:29:54 AM »
Nice to see you thinking old friend. What filament are you using for the bellow?


Also agree with Magnetman's comment to connect the bellows's to each other on the the other side of the wheel so the whole thing can be submerged.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 12:17:37 PM »
Nice to see you thinking old friend. What filament are you using for the bellow?


Also agree with Magnetman's comment to connect the bellows's to each other on the the other side of the wheel so the whole thing can be submerged.
Thanks mate :-)


The bellows are printed in a flexible material that I bought on ebay. Works great for small go-pro camerahousings for drones as a soft "rubber" protection, but it is a little stiff and resistand for bellows. I need to change the shape a little to make it more flexible in length, and stiffer in the diameter. I also have an even more flexible filament. Nearly as flexible as silicone, but that filament is very very slow to print with. As the feeding motor easily will bend the filament before it goes into the heated nozzle, there must be very slow feeding to push that filament out of a 0.4mm nozzle. I can try that, but it takes 3-4 hours to print a small model.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 12:17:37 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 01:16:46 PM »
Many concepts flows throug my mind. Here is another approach that might be useful as a "normal" gravitywheel or as buoyancywheel.


The light blue parts can be steel springs or hollow tubes.


The arched shape is, because of the angle of the wheels, forced to point forward/horizontally, where there is least tension.
The green parts is attached to the wheel with bearings.
The orange/red parts is hinged to the green parts so the flexible light blue parts can make an arched shape corresponding to where on the wheel they are.
The yellow arrows indicates the axis for the two wheels.


The idea is to make an effortless distribution of mass around so one side is (not heavier) generating more torque than the other side.
How effordless it is, I can't tell before it is built and tested. Because all we "know" is that mass that goes up and down the same distance cannot generate energy.
I just want to learn - the engineering way :-)


Vidar

Offline ramset

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2018, 01:19:48 PM »
Edit
I see you added an image while I was plunking

comment below not for Image [but does raise a displacement question [same lift potential in image collapsed or open ??]
------------------------------------

The big squeezy hand of pressure is omnipresent
a bellows in the pressure hand wants to collapse with depth.. yes
but will not reopen when you want  it to refill with air regardless of ambient vents

the vents must over come the pressure hand to force him to open his grip
 they must be under air pressure [linear with depth]

overcoming linear to depth pressure issues are huge energy suckers...


sorry if I am not understanding your path forward [your work around for balloons or bellows]

one thing too[I know it can be engineered around]
Floppy saggy bellows will hoop up with buoyancy .
internal support chassis ?

Delve Spectrum's original design avoids this but ??
here again for newcomers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI7j6YYZ8-I


respectfully
Chet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2018, 01:19:48 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2018, 01:50:48 PM »

I think too that the bellows will collapse a little, therfor I think it is important that the bellows are rigid enough in the diameter to not collapse, but rather let the wheel squeeze it instead (or mainly).
Not shure if that makes any difference, but in order to replicate a stiff pipe/tube, but at the same time make it possible to change its volume, I thought that maybe a bellow would do the same or similar job.
The counterforce is depending on how much the bellows collapse, and what force required to do so.
A 20cm diameter wheel, will cause 20 grams/cm^2 more pressure at the bottom than the top. So the collapse will try to pull the bellow together, and force the bellow in the wrong direction.


The problem with bellows, is that they work in the same way as air motion transducers which is used as expensive tweeters on high end loutspeakers. It is a flat "crinkled" surface that expand and contracts as current flows through inside a magnetic field. So any deformation of a bellow will displace the volume outside and inside of it. That is a problem.


Vidar

Edit
I see you added an image while I was plunking

comment below not for Image [but does raise a displacement question [same lift potential in image collapsed or open ??]
------------------------------------

The big squeezy hand of pressure is omnipresent
a bellows in the pressure hand wants to collapse with depth.. yes
but will not reopen when you want  it to refill with air regardless of ambient vents

the vents must over come the pressure hand to force him to open his grip
 they must be under air pressure [linear with depth]


sorry if I am not understanding your path forward [your work around for balloons or bellows]

one thing too[I know it can be engineered around]
Floppy saggy bellows will hoop up with buoyancy .
internal support chassis ?

respectfully
Chet

Offline magneat

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2018, 06:49:18 AM »

Hi there!


a pair of device options based on the picture from the post "Reply # 20 on: April 24, 2018, 01:16:46 PM"


respectfully

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2018, 06:49:18 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2018, 08:11:49 AM »
@magneat,


I have thought about the idea you suggest in your previous post. So I am on my way designing the parts for this.
The only "concern" is the stress on the bearings at the wheel. Because these weights wants to fall down, and twist the red arms, and the green parts with them, and twist the bearings out of the wheels. I'll make a light weight model first with only the bearings as weight (Blue parts).
First I want to test the springs. I have lots of stainless steel wire I easily can make the springs I need. Then I can make many of them, and they don't need bearings at the wheel. Just need to glue them in place, since the springs easily can roll around their axis even if they are arched, and keep their arched shape in one direction that increase and decrease with rotation. The tension on the top and bottom half on the wheel will cancel out and leave behind only the vertical displacement.


Vidar




Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2018, 08:35:12 AM »
Something like this @magneat?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2018, 08:35:12 AM »
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Offline magneat

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2018, 09:38:37 AM »

@Vidar
Yes something like that.
but, IMHO, the opposite loads (floats) should be directed as in the picture from the post
"Reply # 23 on: Today at 06:49:18 AM" - either towards each other, or vice versa.
and such pairs should be several - that would pass "dead points".
Your concern about the load on the bearings is in vain - you can always do
correct design calculation.
the main task for the model is to show that the very principle is a worker (self-rotation).
for a "correct" gravitational engine, the power should be much higher than
for "water" - weights can be made from a material with a high density (lead density -
11,34 kg / dm³, density of water - 1 kg / dm³, winning - 11,34 times)
and given the greater resistance to movement of disks in the water than in the air, the gain will be greater.
to quickly build a cheap model (to test the principle), you can take a couple of bicycle wheels in assembly (with tires).
then fasten the knots with bearings to the wheel will be convenient with the help of metal clamps with
screws (used in cars) - 2 yokes per 1 knot.
wheels from bicycles will not suffer - after dismantling the model can again be used for its intended purpose.  :D

p.s. I still care about the question of "synchronization of rotation" of the wheels.

respectfully

Offline Belfior

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2018, 11:57:30 AM »
I don't want to ruin your day, but I got one question. Why would you ever want to start your OU investigation with a device that has friction? It seems to concept and principle of capturing excess energy from the ambient is somewhat alien to us, so I would suggest planning it as efficient as possible from the start. No moving parts, no friction, no air drag and purest copper to avoid massive copper losses.

Then when you have a idea you refine it to take into account Lenz law and other nasty shit. (Good video on how to remove Lenz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9MiEJ6KI8 )

I was just watching a Joseph Newman documentary and this guy probably has found something, but he is also an angry&bitter old man set in his ways. He says you need mass to produce the OU effect. I think he can harvest extra energy EVEN when he uses massive multi ton rotors. I think he has mistaken the flywheel effect for the source of his OU

So why are you trying to "run 100m record under water"? Just because there is water near you and you own scuba gear?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2018, 11:57:30 AM »
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Offline magneat

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2018, 12:12:56 PM »

@Belfior,
on your own link a black screen
respectfully

Offline ramset

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2018, 02:36:10 PM »
original Contributor here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI7j6YYZ8-I

TinMan doing some tests here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHxxhzh6kRc

and potential energy available in Brad's chart below

this one keeps a lot of folks awake at Night.

Belior...
no stone left unturned

respectfully
Chet K
PS
any comments on why this should not work [what are we missing??
PLEASE contribute....here or at TinMan's You tube link above

not worried about friction seals or  leaking ATM just issues with the theory ??

 ???
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2018, 02:43:08 PM »
I don't want to ruin your day, but I got one question. Why would you ever want to start your OU investigation with a device that has friction? It seems to concept and principle of capturing excess energy from the ambient is somewhat alien to us, so I would suggest planning it as efficient as possible from the start. No moving parts, no friction, no air drag and purest copper to avoid massive copper losses.

Then when you have a idea you refine it to take into account Lenz law and other nasty shit. (Good video on how to remove Lenz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9MiEJ6KI8 )

I was just watching a Joseph Newman documentary and this guy probably has found something, but he is also an angry&bitter old man set in his ways. He says you need mass to produce the OU effect. I think he can harvest extra energy EVEN when he uses massive multi ton rotors. I think he has mistaken the flywheel effect for the source of his OU

So why are you trying to "run 100m record under water"? Just because there is water near you and you own scuba gear?
If a machine can run from excess energy, or any other energy sources, friction is not a problem. The goal must be to create a machine that can do some useful work. The machine does not know if it is friction or useful work it is doing. So friction is actually important to introduce into the design - more or less.


I still don't believe in excess energy, but the best concept I've seen this far is the video in post #1. This is the machine I want to test very first.


The other concepts that I've drawn are lifting weights up and down the same distance. Even if they look over balanced, they aren't. Because the rear side, where the wheels are closest, and the mass is closest to the center, the wheels circumference must lift that mass the same distance anyways. So in a way, the wheel is in balance. It will be a nice piece of artwork though. I will build it, and place it on my desktop at work :-)


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Brilliant concept, but will it work?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2018, 03:26:54 PM »
This design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI7j6YYZ8-I change buoyancy in front and rear of the wheel.


One counterforce/countertorque is the difference in surface area on the front half side of each pipe and rear half side. Pressure will push more on the greater surface. Say you have 1 bar pressure at the top, and 2 bar pressure at the bottom, and the front side of the pipe is 100cm2 and the rear side is 90cm2, then the difference in force on the highest pipe is 10kg, but 20kg at the bottom. This difference in surface area must correspond to the angle between the wheels, and also corresponds to the difference in submerged volume. Do my conclusion seem right?


Vidar




 

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