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Author Topic: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant  (Read 10037 times)

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #105 on: June 03, 2018, 09:03:50 AM »
Hi all, i ran another test with the 12 strand coil and ferrite tube core.
This coil is more efficient than the house wire coil.
Efficiency worked out to 100.1 %.
So the 12 strand coil is very efficient, more likely because it is using the magnet wire, with the copper wires closer to each other or tighter windings.
Used the multiple data points as previous test.
Will make another test with this same setup, to see if it is consistent.
peace love light :)

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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2018, 05:31:02 AM »
Hi all, so i decided to try something a little different.
I took the 12 strand coil with ferrite tube core and placed it on top of the 10awg. coil with ferrite tube core, with the coils wired in series.

I wasn't absolutely sure which way was the proper magnetic field polarity orientation, for the top 12 strand coil,  so i went with what seemed to give the best output for input and cleanest audible tone.

I ran a previous test, with this arrangement, with a ferrite tube only about 25% into the 10awg. coil former, which yielded 102.4% load test efficiency.

The latest test, with both coils having full ferrite tube cores, yielded 102.7% efficiency.
So it seems interesting, is it the added copper mass that is giving higher efficiency and if we used a normal magnet wire coil instead of the insulated THHN house wire, would we get even higher charging efficiency.
The coils add up to about 3.2 lbs. of copper as it is.
What if we used 10 lbs. of magnet copper wire, hmm.

I am pretty confident of the numbers data.
As in the latest test, i used the 8 data points for the discharge of the 20 ohm resistor and 4 data points for the charging phase.
Since the amperage input did not waiver from .18 amps and is stable at 20 volts from the boost converter.

Out of curiosity, i am going to raise the voltage to at least 25 volts input and compare the charge/ load test efficiency next.
Thoughts welcome.
peace love light

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2018, 04:33:14 PM »
Hi SkyWatcher,

In your last but one post you wrote: "i ran another test with the 12 strand coil and ferrite tube core.
This coil is more efficient than the house wire coil. Efficiency worked out to 100.1 %.
So the 12 strand coil is very efficient, more likely because it is using the magnet wire, with the copper wires closer to each other or tighter windings."

I think it is mostly the insulated-from-each-other wires in the 12 strand winding that is useful, together with what you wrote on the closeness to each other versus the house wire coil in which the number of strands are 19 (as you wrote) but they are uninsulated copper wires directly touching each other and the thickness of the PVC insulation on the 19 strands maintains 'air gaps' in the magnetic field. These "embedded" air gaps may or may not affect the strength of the magnetic field created by the input current, only tests can reveal this, my take is the field strength is probably less than with tight windings.

Regarding your latest test, you wrote:
"So it seems interesting, is it the added copper mass that is giving higher efficiency and if we used a normal magnet wire coil instead of the insulated THHN house wire, would we get even higher charging efficiency.  The coils add up to about 3.2 lbs. of copper as it is. What if we used 10 lbs. of magnet copper wire, hmm." 

Well, what you deduce sounds good and acceptable at first. We need to consider though the position of the two coils: they are coupled in a magnetically aiding fashion i.e. they together must have higher resulting L inductance than just adding the L1 and L2 inductances of the 12 strand coil and the house wire coil together due to their series connection. It is sure you eventually connected them correctly in series, their fields aid each other as if they were quasi a common continuous winding, otherwise the resulting inductance would be much less than the sum of them (plus the M mutual inductance) and this would have surely manifested in an input current increase at first if you happened to notice such? 

So it is not so sure (well I am not so sure) that the role of the copper mass is: the more the better. 
What if you had say a metglas core having a permeability of say 50000 instead of the say 800-1500 for the ferrite cores? That would mean the same L inductance could be had just with less copper for the winding, so just the opposite tendency it seems. I am not against using more copper of course but there are other factors I try to mention for consideration.

I thought drawing your attention this simple LC meter for you :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LC100-A-High-Precision-Digital-Inductance-Capacitance-L-C-Power-Meter-Board/401382330899?hash=item5d74405213:m:mf8zDmlZ5r4DO7Jb87gUOAg     

Gyula

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2018, 04:33:14 PM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2018, 09:22:05 PM »
Hi gyulasun, thanks for the reply and helpful information and the inductance meter link.

I just swapped the top coil around the other way and it does draw slightly more, though is more quiet.
I'm going to make a test at 25 volts, with the top coil swapped around this way, which is probably bucking, just to see.
peace love light  :)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2018, 09:28:07 PM »
Well, you can check the magnetic poles by a compass if you feed a low level DC current into the coils and then orient them accordingly.   Or check the winding sense of the two coils by eye if it is simpler.   8)

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2018, 09:28:07 PM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2018, 04:06:16 AM »
Hi gyulasun, thanks for the reply.
Yes, i will do that if needed.

I finished a test at 25 volts using similar input and the efficiency came to 102.8%.
This test was with the top coil flipped the other way around.
I will flip the coil back the other way and make another test at 25 volts input, though first i will check magnetic field polarity.
peace love light

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2018, 07:08:57 PM »
Hi all, have been making more tests.
Just finished another charge/load test and afterwards I checked the magnetic polarity of the separate coils in series, using a 12 volt battery, briefly applying power.

In this latest test, the coils were in repulsion and yet, the efficiency has increased to 104.5% at 20 volt input again.

Part of the reason for the increase, may be because I flipped the bottom coil, because more copper was on one end compared to the other, as can be seen in the picture posted.
This may be giving greater inductive coupling.

Still, it is interesting that the efficiency is higher with bucking coils in this type of configuration.
Thoughts welcome.
peace love light

Also, I made a previous test and i did not have the ferrite tube cores touching each other, from the two coil cores and the efficiency was normal, at around 100%.
So it seems, the two coils need to be sufficiently coupled, inductively.


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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2018, 07:08:57 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2018, 09:30:41 PM »
Hi SkyWatcher,

It is interesting that with the coils in bucking connection you get a bit higher efficiency. Yet, conventionally it can be explained I think: due to the big coil sizes involved, the magnetic coupling cannot be so strong between them and this is valid both for the bucking and the aiding cases of their flux.

To understand this better, if one of the coils were wound directly on top of the other onto the same bobbin (say you had one fat coil) and you would connect them also in bucking series, then the resulting L inductance would be much less than it is when they are bucking in the one coil placed above the other position as shown in your present picture.
And in the series aiding connection (now I refer again to the example of wound directly on top of the other on a single bobbin), the resulting L inductance would be even higher than in the series aiding position when one coil is placed above the other as they are shown in your picture. 

Unfortunately, the truth on the resulting L inductance for the two coils in any series configuration could be answered more precisely by an L meter.

Remember that when you removed a certain amount of wire from the 12 strand coil recently and its earlier L inductance surely got reduced, you managed to obtain very nearly the similar 102-103% by some tweaking in the circuit like the efficiency was with the original 12 strand wire length.  i.e. did you have to tinker with the circuit in the bucking coils case your picture shows?

You may also ponder on whether you explored the several possibilies of filling the 12 strand coil back then with varying length of the toroidal core inserts, i.e. changing the L inductance of it by the length of the core. If yes and in case you found a broad range for the peak efficiency, then it is possible that the reduced inductance the bucking coils cause (when they are placed as your picture shows) may still fall into that broad range and with some tweeking the circuit that good result came about.

You wrote: "Part of the reason for the increase, may be because I flipped the bottom coil, because more copper was on one end compared to the other, as can be seen in the picture posted. This may be giving greater inductive coupling."

I respect your tending towards 'the more copper higher efficiency' idea, trying to explain the better efficiency result. Please consider also what I tried to mention above.
I do not think that the "more copper was on one end compared to the other" is what influences efficiency, especially if you had to do adjustments in the circuit in the bucking mode to arrive at the better result.
If the cores position are considered when flipping the coils (if they can be considered without measuring inductance) then the resulting L inductance has to be within close range for the flipped case i.e. magnetic coupling should be also within close range so efficiency-wise this could not count as much.  This is what I think.
Thanks for sharing your work.
Gyula

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2018, 10:50:58 PM »
Hi gyulasun, thanks as always for your very helpful replies, I appreciate your help very much.

And I'm sorry if I am causing any confusion, though most of those previous results were in error.

The results I have gathered with this new meter, are pretty accurate in my opinion.
The 10awg. coil/core on its own, showed 94.7% load test efficiency.
The 12 strand coil/core on its own, showed 100.1% load test efficiency.
So the interesting thing at this time, is the fact that the coils in series combination, with one on top of the other, is giving the above COP 1 results.
Well yes, the circuit is altered, because i went back to 20 volt input, so maybe that is why the increase in efficiency.

Though the question at hand, is this, why is this setup going over COP 1 now, where before, with just the single coil/cores by themselves, they could not achieve this.

I'm currently trying to find information on a device I remember reading about from Bill Muller.
It was a solid state overunity RLC circuit and if i remember correctly, it had a similar configuration, a coil on top of another coil, though I don't remember if it was bucking or not, i will find it.
peace love light

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2018, 10:50:58 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2018, 11:11:08 PM »
Hi SkyWatcher,

Okay, and the dilemma now is: how do you know that if you could make the inductance of the 12 strand coil to have the same inductance that now the bucking coils have, then what efficiency would you get? Pondered on that?
The bucking coils inductance can be either higher or lower than the 12 strand coil has.   

Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2018, 11:25:19 PM »
I do not recall such coil arrangement from Bill Müller you mention. He used 'step' like coil windings in his rotary motor - generators, you may recall that.

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2018, 11:25:19 PM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2018, 07:31:45 AM »
Hi gyulasun, thanks for the reply, i will ponder that.

I found some files about Bill Mullers RLC circuit, it does look similar.
Both coils are coupled without a gap and in series, though not sure if bucking, though I bet they are, since his motor/generator used bucking or repulsion.
If you look at the circuit, it is using pulsed dc, so my circuit is also functioning similar, except for the capacitors.
It looks like it is splitting the positive with the coils, into the capacitor and then acting as a voltage doubler.
I seem to recall the circuit was well over COP 1.
peace love light :)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2018, 05:22:45 PM »
Hi SkyWatcher,

Thanks for showing the Müller RLC circuit, I surely missed this from him back then. You wrote:

"If you look at the circuit, it is using pulsed dc, so my circuit is also functioning similar, except for the capacitors. It looks like it is splitting the positive with the coils, into the capacitor and then acting as a voltage doubler."

In the schematic I see a full wave diode bridge that rectifies the 110V AC input and capacitor C2 is across the DC output of the diode bridge.  I labeled the positive output as A and the negative as B, see attachment. 

The two coils in series is connected between point A and C,  the latter point is also connected to the positive plate of another capacitor, C3 and also to one point of a load via a switch I labeled as S1. The other end of the load is connected to point B which is the common negative for C2 and C3 and also for the DC negative output of the diode bridge.
I inserted a second schematic which I think shows exactly the same circuit, it is a full wave rectifier with a pi filter feeding a load with DC power when switch S1 is on.

So I do not think there is pulsed DC in the load if you meant that, unless the switch is controlled by a pulse not shown.  And there is no voltage doubler in this.
If Bill Müller found overunity with this circuit, then the "wonder" to give that should be happening in and coming from the core material the two coils share. 

Can you agree with these?

Gyula

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2018, 08:33:23 PM »
Hi gyulasun, thanks for the good reply.
Yes, I could not find any of this on the web again, i had to dig in my archives.

Here is what i see, first, it looks like the symbol orientation of C2 and C3 on the original circuit is backwards and i think that is an error in drawing, yours is correct.
Then, the full wave bridge is outputting DC and it is not continuous, there is a pulsing effect happening.
So if a pulsing is happening, then C2 gets charge directly from bridge and C3 gets charge through the series inductor.
Then, if there is a break in the pulse, the coils collapse and couple with C2 to create a boosted volage into C3 and load.
Though if there is no make and break of the pulse from bridge, then what i just said, is not correct.
Not sure if the coils are bucking each other and what that may be doing, pulsed or not, though i see it's doing interesting things in my setup.
peace love light

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Rene/Meissner EMF Higher Voltage Charger Variant
« Reply #119 on: June 09, 2018, 07:24:22 PM »
Hi all, I made another charge/load test with the same circuit and coils, though this time, i flipped the top 12 strand coil, so it is in attraction mode with the bottom 10awg. coil.
The efficiency came out almost identical.
So, it seems as though the bucking was not adding or subtracting from the charging efficiency.
For now, I'm leaning toward the higher efficiency being caused by the greater mass of copper.
Though I have one thing i want to test, separate both coils and physically place them apart, though still wired in series and see how the load test efficiency compares.
peace love light

Update: Finished the physically separated in series coil/core test, the efficiency was a little better, at 105.5%, charging the lithium ion battery.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 10:34:16 PM by SkyWatcher123 »

 

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