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Solid States Devices => Free Energy Generator DZ Generator by Pierre Cotnoir => Topic started by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 03:12:45 PM

Title: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 03:12:45 PM
Hi everyone,

This topic is a continuation of the discussion and replication of Pierre Cotnoir's Device.
Pierre's demo videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A)

Post rules of this topic
Please keep your post on topic and constructive. I reserve the right to edit or delete any post that are not so.
Also, this is a bilingual English and French topic. I reserve the right to edit in the translation of your post.

Regards

Luc

français
Bonjour à tous
Ce sujet est une continuation de la discussion et de la réplication du dispositif de Pierre Cotnoir.
Les vidéos de démonstration de Pierre: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A)
Les règles de post dans ce sujet
S'il vous plaît gardez votre message sur le sujet et constructif. Je me réserve le droit d'éditer ou de supprimer tout article qui ne l'est pas.
Aussi, c'est un sujet bilingue anglais et français. Je me réserve le droit d'éditer la traduction de votre message.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stiplanet on March 23, 2018, 03:34:01 PM
salut LUC je me demandais si pour le stator on ne pourrait pas utiliser celui du compresseur d'un réfrigérateur ,car il a un stator pareil juste une idée.

English
Hi LUC, I was wondering if we could use a refrigerator compressor stator?  because they have the same kind of stator.  Just an idea.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on March 23, 2018, 03:44:23 PM
Hi Luc
Good idea to move discussion to where ou can moderate
Always problem here  with perpetual arguments that creates  so much anger one cannot even think straight

français
Salut Luc
Bonne idée de déplacer la discussion où vous pouvez modérer
Toujours un problème ici avec des arguments perpétuels qui crée tellement de colère qu'on ne peut même pas penser correctement


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 03:46:58 PM
salut LUC je me demandais si pour le stator on ne pourrait pas utiliser celui du compresseur d'un réfrigérateur ,car il a un stator pareil juste une idée.

English
Hi LUC, I was wondering if we could use a refrigerator compressor stator?  because they have the same kind of stator.  Just an idea.

Oui, pourquoi pas

English
Yes, why not
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 04:03:38 PM
Hi Luc
Good idea to move discussion to where ou can moderate
Always problem here  with perpetual arguments that creates  so much anger one cannot even think straight

français
Salut Luc
Bonne idée de déplacer la discussion où vous pouvez modérer
Toujours un problème ici avec des arguments perpétuels qui crée tellement de colère qu'on ne peut même pas penser correctement

I'm always willing to help the research community which ever way I can.

Regards
Luc

français
Je suis toujours prêt à aider la communauté de recherche ans toute les moyens disponible.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 23, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
Thanks Luc for moving the discussion here. Hopefully people will stay focused on topic here and not insult others. Btw. did you get my PM about measuring the capacitance of the coils? Curious how much parasitic capacitance there is in a stator like this, especially when we are talking about parametric variation of the inductance.
PmgR

français
Merci Luc d'avoir avancer la discussion ici. Espérons que les gens resteront concentrés sur le sujet ici et n'insulteront pas les autres. Avez-vous eu mon PM sur la mesure de la capacitance des bobines? Curieux combien de capacité parasite il y a dans un stator comme celui-ci, surtout quand on parle de variation paramétrique de l'inductance.
PmgR

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: tinman on March 23, 2018, 04:44:26 PM
Hi everyone,

This topic is a continuation of the discussion and replication of Pierre Cotnoir's Device.
Pierre's demo videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A)

Post rules of this topic
Please keep your post on topic and constructive. I reserve the right to edit or delete any post that are not so.
Also, this is a bilingual English and French topic. I reserve the right to edit in the translation of your post.

Regards

Luc

français
Bonjour à tous
Ce sujet est une continuation de la discussion et de la réplication du dispositif de Pierre Cotnoir.
Les vidéos de démonstration de Pierre: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbTYIW_yo65zgWdMlcA3s9A)
Les règles de post dans ce sujet
S'il vous plaît gardez votre message sur le sujet et constructif. Je me réserve le droit d'éditer ou de supprimer tout article qui ne l'est pas.
Aussi, c'est un sujet bilingue anglais et français. Je me réserve le droit d'éditer la traduction de votre message.
Cordialement
Luc

Good to see a moderated thread Luc--good choice.

I would like to ask something here at this point.

We have transistors driving relay's,which them self have a very limited operating frequency.

Is there any reason the relays cant be omitted ,and use the transistors them self to drive the coils?

The transistors would be cheaper,and you cut out the time and expense of the relays,and the transistors would be a much cleaner switching option.

Just some thoughts.


Brad

français
C'est bon de voir le sujet modéré Luc - bon choix.
Je voudrais demander quelque chose ici à ce stage.
Nous avons des transistors qui pilot les relais, qui eux-mêmes ont une fréquence de fonctionnement très limitée.
Y at-il une raison pour laquelle les relais ne peuvent pas être omis, et utiliser les transistors eux-mêmes pour entraîner les bobines?
Les transistors seraient moins chers, et vous coupez le temps et les dépenses des relais, et les transistors seraient une option de commutation beaucoup plus propre.
Juste quelques pensées.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 04:47:02 PM
Thanks Luc for moving the discussion here. Hopefully people will stay focused on topic here and not insult others. Btw. did you get my PM about measuring the capacitance of the coils? Curious how much parasitic capacitance there is in a stator like this, especially when we are talking about parametric variation of the inductance.
PmgR

français
Merci Luc d'avoir avancer la discussion ici. Espérons que les gens resteront concentrés sur le sujet ici et n'insulteront pas les autres. Avez-vous eu mon PM sur la mesure de la capacitance des bobines? Curieux combien de capacité parasite il y a dans un stator comme celui-ci, surtout quand on parle de variation paramétrique de l'inductance.
PmgR

Thanks PmgR, I'm always glad to help.
I did receive your PM (private message) but I had to recharge the battery of the meter overnight. I also want to know if you are interested in Capacitance readings across the coil or between adjacent coils?... also, at this point the coil connections are all separated, would the capacitance not be affected once all the coils are connected in series as Pierre has them?

Regards
Luc

français
Merci PmgR, je suis toujours heureux d'aider.
J'ai reçu votre PM (message privé) mais j'ai dû recharger la batterie du compteur pendant la nuit. Je veux également savoir si vous êtes intéressé par les lectures de capacité à travers la bobine ou entre les bobines adjacentes? ... aussi, en ce moment les connexions de bobine sont toutes séparées, la capacité ne serait t'elle pas affectée une fois que toutes les bobines sont connectées en série comme Pierre les a?

Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 23, 2018, 04:49:10 PM
Related to stiplanet's question...do folks know where we can look for these stators in other discarded machines ?
Am not averse to ripping such a thing from something sat on the roadside !
Am thinking it may be good to have a list of machines that are likely to contain them.

français
En rapport avec la question de stiplanet ... les gens savent-ils où nous pouvons chercher pour ces stators dans d'autres machines mises au rebut?
Je ne suis pas opposé à arracher une telle chose de quelque chose assis sur le bord de la route!
Je pense qu'il peut être bon d'avoir une liste de machines susceptibles de contenir un stator utile  à ce projet.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 23, 2018, 04:51:58 PM
Possible ON time to relay X? (No!)
Possible sur ON pour relayer X? (Non!)

Until someone comes up with a better relay principle (timing), that makes the relays  able to work, I'm hesitant that Pierres Contraption works giving OU as shown in the movies!

Jusqu'à ce que quelqu'un trouve un meilleur principe de relais (timing), cela rend les relais capables de fonctionner, j'hésite à dire que Pierre Contraption travaille sur O.U. comme le montre le film!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 05:05:20 PM
Good to see a moderated thread Luc--good choice.

I would like to ask something here at this point.

We have transistors driving relay's,which them self have a very limited operating frequency.

Is there any reason the relays cant be omitted ,and use the transistors them self to drive the coils?

The transistors would be cheaper,and you cut out the time and expense of the relays,and the transistors would be a much cleaner switching option.

Just some thoughts.


Brad

français
C'est bon de voir le sujet modéré Luc - bon choix.
Je voudrais demander quelque chose ici à ce stage.
Nous avons des transistors qui pilot les relais, qui eux-mêmes ont une fréquence de fonctionnement très limitée.
Y at-il une raison pour laquelle les relais ne peuvent pas être omis, et utiliser les transistors eux-mêmes pour entraîner les bobines?
Les transistors seraient moins chers, et vous coupez le temps et les dépenses des relais, et les transistors seraient une option de commutation beaucoup plus propre.
Juste quelques pensées.

Glad to help mate!
We're still unsure if the relays have a favorable effect on Pierre's device but yes, transistor or mosfet switching should be able to do a much better switching job then relays.
That will be tested first on my build with the below H-Bridge which we can buy 5 of them for $9.95 from a US supplier.

Cheers
Luc

Link /lien: 
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=4&toolid=11800&pub=5574900467&campid=5338252492&mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F222461752336%3FrmvSB%3Dtrue

français
Content d'aider!
Nous ne savons toujours pas si les relais ont un effet favorable sur l'appareil de Pierre, mais oui, la commutation transistor ou mosfet devrait être capable de faire un meilleur travail de commutation que les relais.
Cela sera testé d'abord sur ma construction avec le H-Bridge ci-dessous que nous pouvons acheter 5 pour 9,95 $ d'un fournisseur américain.
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 23, 2018, 06:47:25 PM
Related to stiplanet's question...do folks know where we can look for these stators in other discarded machines ?
Am not averse to ripping such a thing from something sat on the roadside !
Am thinking it may be good to have a list of machines that are likely to contain them.

français
En rapport avec la question de stiplanet ... les gens savent-ils où nous pouvons chercher pour ces stators dans d'autres machines mises au rebut?
Je ne suis pas opposé à arracher une telle chose de quelque chose assis sur le bord de la route!
Je pense qu'il peut être bon d'avoir une liste de machines susceptibles de contenir un stator utile  à ce projet.


Une solution à prix raisonnable consiste à trouver un groupe électrogène en panne d'occasion, en consultant les petites annonces. C'est ce que j'ai fait. Je l'ai obtenu pour 40 €.
En général c'est le moteur thermique qui est en panne, pas la génératrice. Si la panne se trouve sur la génératrice, cela n'a pas d'importance, vu le traitement qu'on lui réserve.

English

A reasonably priced solution is to find a used gasoline power generator, by looking at the classifieds. That's what I did. I got one for 40 €.
Most common problem with these is the gasoline engine, not the generator. Even if the generator is bad, it doesn't matter, since the stator and rotor don't go bad.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 23, 2018, 07:49:29 PM

Une solution à prix raisonnable consiste à trouver un groupe électrogène en panne d'occasion, en consultant les petites annonces. C'est ce que j'ai fait. Je l'ai obtenu pour 40 €.
En général c'est le moteur thermique qui est en panne, pas la génératrice. Si la panne se trouve sur la génératrice, cela n'a pas d'importance, vu le traitement qu'on lui réserve.

English

A reasonably priced solution is to find a used gasoline power generator, by looking at the classifieds. That's what I did. I got one for 40 €.
Most common problem with these is the gasoline engine, not the generator. Even if the generator is bad, it doesn't matter, since the stator and rotor don't go bad.

Single phase, 2 rotor pole generators up to 2.8KW, are more likely to have 24 slot stators, like the one shown. The larger 5-6KW three phase two rotor pole generators are likely to have 36 slot stators.

Regards

L192 
français
Les générateurs monophase de rotor à 2 champ jusqu'à 2.8KW, sont plus susceptibles d'avoir un stators de 24 fente, comme celui montré. Les générateurs plus grands de triphases rotor 2 champ de 5-6KW sont susceptibles d'avoir un stator de  36 fente.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 23, 2018, 09:18:15 PM
Thanks for the advice MichelM and L192 :)

Luc, i've realised that my writing should contain less slang, due to your translations to French.
"huh ?" is likely a universal expression on the other end.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2018, 09:32:49 PM
Single phase, 2 rotor pole generators up to 2.8KW, are more likely to have 24 slot stators, like the one shown. The larger 5-6KW three phase two rotor pole generators are likely to have 36 slot stators.

Regards

L192 
français
Les générateurs monophase de rotor à 2 champ jusqu'à 2.8KW, sont plus susceptibles d'avoir un stators de 24 fente, comme celui montré. Les générateurs plus grands de triphases rotor 2 champ de 5-6KW sont susceptibles d'avoir un stator de  36 fente.
Cordialement

L191, please have a closer look at the picture you're referring. I'm quite sure it's a 30 slots.  The welds and shape looks exactly like my 30 slots stator and the rotor looks the same as well.
However, I would agree with you that the larger 5 kW or more may have 36 slots.

Regards
Luc

français
L191, regardez de plus près la photo dont vous parlez. Je suis tout à fait sûr que c'est un 30 fentes. Les soudures et la forme ressemble exactement à mon stator à 30 fentes et le rotor a la même apparence.
Cependant, je suis d'accord avec vous que les 5 kW ou plus peuvent avoir 36 fentes.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 23, 2018, 10:32:09 PM
Luc, le programme Arduino a-t-il été demandé à Pierre ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 23, 2018, 11:52:34 PM
L191, please have a closer look at the picture you're referring. I'm quite sure it's a 30 slots.  The welds and shape looks exactly like my 30 slots stator and the rotor looks the same as well.
However, I would agree with you that the larger 5 kW or more may have 36 slots.

Regards
Luc

français
L191, regardez de plus près la photo dont vous parlez. Je suis tout à fait sûr que c'est un 30 fentes. Les soudures et la forme ressemble exactement à mon stator à 30 fentes et le rotor a la même apparence.
Cependant, je suis d'accord avec vous que les 5 kW ou plus peuvent avoir 36 fentes.
Cordialement
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

Difficult to confirm from that photo that it is 24 or 30 slots.

Ordinarily the number of slots in the stator is a multiple of the number of poles and the number of phases, thus the stator of a 4 pole 3 phase alternator may have 12,24,36,42,48 slots etc, all which are multiples of 12.
So for a 3 phase 2 pole alternator the slots may be 12,18,24,30,36,42. In both cases the slot numbers above 36 would be only used in much larger diameter stators (higher power), as otherwise the pole CSA would be diminished in a smaller diameter stator, reducing efficiency.  The commonly used numbers of slots are in bold for domestic generators.

Regards

L192

français
Bonjour Gotoluc,
Difficile de confirmer à partir de cette photo qu'il s'agit de 24 ou 30 fentes.
Ordinairement, le nombre de fentes dans le stator est un multiple du nombre de pôles et du nombre de phases, ainsi le stator d'un alternateur triphasé à 4 pôles peut avoir 12,24,36,42,48 fentes etc, tous ce qui sont multiples de 12.
Ainsi, pour un alternateur bipolaire triphasé, les fentes peuvent être 12,18,24,30,36,42. Dans les deux cas, les numéros de fentes au-dessus de 36 ne seraient utilisés que dans des stators de plus grand diamètre (puissance plus élevée), sinon le pôle CSA serait diminué dans un stator de plus petit diamètre, réduisant ainsi l'efficacité. Les nombres d'emplacements généralement utilisés sont en gras pour les générateurs domestiques.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: tinman on March 24, 2018, 01:56:53 AM
L191, please have a closer look at the picture you're referring. I'm quite sure it's a 30 slots.  The welds and shape looks exactly like my 30 slots stator and the rotor looks the same as well.
However, I would agree with you that the larger 5 kW or more may have 36 slots.

Regards
Luc

français
L191, regardez de plus près la photo dont vous parlez. Je suis tout à fait sûr que c'est un 30 fentes. Les soudures et la forme ressemble exactement à mon stator à 30 fentes et le rotor a la même apparence.
Cependant, je suis d'accord avec vous que les 5 kW ou plus peuvent avoir 36 fentes.
Cordialement
Luc

I cannot see what difference there would be between using a 30 or 36 slot stator core,other than it (the 30 slot) being a smaller version.

In both cases,all you are doing is creating a step charged rotating electromagnetic field that has a 60Hz frequency.

Because relays are being used,each coil will be either on or off,and when a scope is placed across the center output coil,you will see these steps in the AC sine wave. This could be smoothed with the right value cap across each stator coil.

Some here think a replication is based around the physical properties of a device,when they should base it around working principles of the device.

Brad

français
Je ne vois pas quelle différence il y aurait entre l'utilisation d'un stator à 30 ou 36 fentes, autre que celle-ci (la fente 30) étant une version plus petite.
Dans les deux cas, tout ce que vous faites est de créer une étape chargée de champ électromagnétique tournant qui a une fréquence de 60Hz.
Puisque les relais sont utilisés, chaque bobine sera allumée ou éteinte, et lorsqu'un ocliloscope est placée sur la bobine de sortie centrale vous verrez ces étapes dans l'onde sinusoïdale AC. Cela pourrait être filtré avec la bonne valeur de condensateur à travers chaque bobine du stator.
Certains ici pensent qu'une réplication est basée sur les propriétés physiques d'un appareil, quand ils devraient se baser sur les principes de fonctionnement de l'appareil.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: shylo on March 24, 2018, 03:52:25 AM
Is Pierre going to continue with his step by step build in this thread?
Luc your in direct contact with him, What does he have to say?
Why is everybody trying to change the build, do an exact replication first ,then make the changes, no?
Seems like this topic is already being lost.
My question to Pierre is, can you give us a breakdown , six poles , overlapping or turning off as six more turn on, 3 north 3 south in an alternating fashion, at 600 switches a minute, 18 coils right 36 slots means 18 coils right, it takes 2 slots to make a coil right?
A simple commutator with adjustable speed could be used, if that is the only role the relays play.
I don't know
Just saying
artv

français
Est-ce que Pierre va continuer avec sa construction pas à pas dans ce sujet?
Luc, tu es en contact direct avec lui, qu'a-t-il à dire?
Pourquoi tout le monde essaie-t-il de changer la construction, de faire d'abord une réplication exacte, puis de faire les changements, non?
On dirait que ce sujet est déjà perdu.
Ma question à Pierre est, pouvez-vous nous donner une répartition, six pôles, chevaucher désactiver quan six pôles de plus s'allume, 3 nord 3 sud en alternance, à 600 commutateurs par minute. 18 bobines correct  veux dire 36 fentes signifie 18 bobines correct?  ça prend 2 fente pour faire une bobine correct?
Un simple commutateur à vitesse réglable pourrait être utilisé, si tel c'est le seul rôle joué par les relais.
Je ne sais pas
Je dis juste
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 24, 2018, 05:08:20 AM
Is Pierre going to continue with his step by step build in this thread?
Luc your in direct contact with him, What does he have to say?
Why is everybody trying to change the build, do an exact replication first ,then make the changes, no?
Seems like this topic is already being lost.
My question to Pierre is, can you give us a breakdown , six poles , overlapping or turning off as six more turn on, 3 north 3 south in an alternating fashion, at 600 switches a minute, 18 coils right 36 slots means 18 coils right, it takes 2 slots to make a coil right?
A simple commutator with adjustable speed could be used, if that is the only role the relays play.
I don't know
Just saying
artv

français
Est-ce que Pierre va continuer avec sa construction pas à pas dans ce sujet?
Luc, tu es en contact direct avec lui, qu'a-t-il à dire?
Pourquoi tout le monde essaie-t-il de changer la construction, de faire d'abord une réplication exacte, puis de faire les changements, non?
On dirait que ce sujet est déjà perdu.
Ma question à Pierre est, pouvez-vous nous donner une répartition, six pôles, chevaucher désactiver quan six pôles de plus s'allume, 3 nord 3 sud en alternance, à 600 commutateurs par minute. 18 bobines correct  veux dire 36 fentes signifie 18 bobines correct?  ça prend 2 fente pour faire une bobine correct?
Un simple commutateur à vitesse réglable pourrait être utilisé, si tel c'est le seul rôle joué par les relais.
Je ne sais pas
Je dis juste

Dear shylo,
Very difficult to translate what you wrote. Too many questions all grouped together!
Pierre is not going to answer all those. His participation is minimal, at most once a week and only through PM's directly to me.
Most of the information you need to build a test device is posted in the original topic: http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/#.WrXMK9YpDM0
We are not starting over here, this topic is a moderated continuation.

Regards
Luc

français
Cher shylo,
Très difficile de traduire ce que vous avez écrit. Trop de questions toutes groupées!
Pierre ne va pas répondre à toutes ces questions. Sa participation est minime, au plus une fois par semaine et uniquement par l'entremise des PM directement à moi.
La plupart des informations dont vous avez besoin pour construire un appareil est publiée dans le sujet d'origine: http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and- vidéo / #. WrXMK9YpDM0
Nous ne recommençons pas avec les détails de construction ici car nous avons tous obtenu ce dont nous avons besoin du sujet original. Ce nouveau sujet est une continuation modérée.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: tinman on March 24, 2018, 05:56:32 AM
Is Pierre going to continue with his step by step build in this thread?
Luc your in direct contact with him, What does he have to say?
Why is everybody trying to change the build, do an exact replication first ,then make the changes, no?
Seems like this topic is already being lost.
My question to Pierre is, can you give us a breakdown , six poles , overlapping or turning off as six more turn on, 3 north 3 south in an alternating fashion, at 600 switches a minute, 18 coils right 36 slots means 18 coils right, it takes 2 slots to make a coil right?
A simple commutator with adjustable speed could be used, if that is the only role the relays play.
I don't know
Just saying
artv

français
Est-ce que Pierre va continuer avec sa construction pas à pas dans ce sujet?
Luc, tu es en contact direct avec lui, qu'a-t-il à dire?
Pourquoi tout le monde essaie-t-il de changer la construction, de faire d'abord une réplication exacte, puis de faire les changements, non?
On dirait que ce sujet est déjà perdu.
Ma question à Pierre est, pouvez-vous nous donner une répartition, six pôles, chevaucher désactiver quan six pôles de plus s'allume, 3 nord 3 sud en alternance, à 600 commutateurs par minute. 18 bobines correct  veux dire 36 fentes signifie 18 bobines correct?  ça prend 2 fente pour faire une bobine correct?
Un simple commutateur à vitesse réglable pourrait être utilisé, si tel c'est le seul rôle joué par les relais.
Je ne sais pas
Je dis juste

Shylo

I do not think the topic is being lost at all. Some of us just understand that replicating a device dose not mean that a red wire cant be blue,or one stator cant be smaller than the other.

Those that continue to make claims that a replication is not being made here,should also be able to explain what the operational difference will be between what Luc is building,and what Pierre has built.

Luc is building his replication using what he has at hand,and is simply a slightly  smaller scale.
There will be no difference in the outcome between the two--both are creating a step charged rotating magnetic field around the stator core,which has a frequency of 60Hz.

What you should be asking is--how is this 60Hz frequency achieved with electro-mechanical relays?

To continue to say Luc is no replicating Pierre's device,but provide no explanation as to how or why the outcome will be different,is not the scientific method one should be using.
To replicate the effect,one would need to achieve the same step charged rotating magnetic field at the same frequency,using the same method.Luc's build will achieve this.

Here is where some here will get confused.
First you say -do an exact replication,and then in the same post you say--:
Quote: A simple commutator with adjustable speed could be used, if that is the only role the relays play.

Perhaps you will now understand as to why people like myself and Luc get frustrated.

My biggest concern with this is--how are these relays able to operate at 60 cycles per second?.

Brad

français
Shylo, je ne pense pas que le sujet soit perdu du tout. Certains d'entre nous comprennent simplement que la réplication d'un appareil ne signifie pas qu'un fil rouge ne peut pas être bleu, ou qu'un stator ne peut pas être plus petit que l'autre.
Ceux qui continuent d'affirmer qu'une réplication n'est pas faite ici devraient aussi être capables d'expliquer quelle sera la différence opérationnelle entre ce que Luc construit et ce que Pierre a construit.  Luc construit sa réplique en utilisant ce qu'il a en main, et est simplement une échelle légèrement plus petite.
Il n'y aura pas de différence dans le résultat entre les deux - les deux créent une étape de champ magnétique tournant autour du noyau du stator, qui a une fréquence de 60Hz.
Ce que vous devriez demander est: comment cette fréquence de 60 Hz est-elle atteinte avec les relais électromécaniques?
Pour continuer à dire que Luc ne réplique pas l'appareil de Pierre, mais ne fournit aucune explication sur la façon dont ou pourquoi le résultat sera différent, n'est-ce pas la méthode scientifique que l'on devrait utiliser.
Pour reproduire l'effet, il faudrait atteindre la même étape chargée de champ magnétique tournant à la même fréquence, en utilisant la même méthode. La construction de Luc permettra d'atteindre cet objectif. Voici où certains ici seront confus. D'abord vous dites -d'une réplication exacte, et ensuite dans le même post vous dites Quote: Un simple commutateur à vitesse réglable pourrait être utilisé, si c'est le seul rôle que jouent les relais.
Vous comprendrez peut-être maintenant pourquoi les gens comme moi et Luc sont frustrés.
Ma plus grande préoccupation avec ceci est - comment ces relais peuvent-ils fonctionner à 60 cycles par seconde?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 24, 2018, 08:06:39 AM
Brad,

Every relay only needs to switch once every 12 steps (each coil is switched every 6 steps, by switching the VDD relay once every 12 steps and the GND relay once every 12 steps with an offset of 6 steps between the two).

12 steps is equivalent to 60Hz, or 16.6ms. Each relay is on for 6 steps (8.3ms), then off for 6 steps (8.3ms). The relays can probably do this as their mechanical operation time is 10ms (just a delay and not relevant) and fall-off time 5ms which is smaller than 8.3ms.

PmgR

français
Brad, chaque relais n'a besoin de changer qu'une fois tous les 12 pas (chaque bobine est commutée tous les 6 pas, en commutant le relais VDD une fois tous les 12 pas et le relais GND une fois tous les 12 pas avec un décalage de 6 pas entre les deux).
12 étapes équivaut à 60Hz ou 16.6ms. Chaque relais est activé pendant 6 étapes (8,3 ms), puis désactivé pendant 6 étapes (8,3 ms). Les relais peuvent probablement le faire car leur temps de fonctionnement mécanique est de 10 ms (juste un retard et non pertinent) et le temps de chute est de 5 ms, ce qui est inférieur à 8,3 ms.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 24, 2018, 09:06:24 AM
Après étude image par image de la première vidéo, je conclus que la séquence des LED bleues reboucle toutes les 4 secondes.
Soit 120 images. (à 1 image près). Chaque pas vaut 1/30 de seconde.
Comparaison à: 10:35:29, 10:39:28, 10:43:27, 10:47:25, 10:51:24, 10:55:23

After a frame by frame study of the first video, I conclude that the sequence of the blue LEDs loops every 4 seconds.
That's 120 images. (close to 1 image). Each step is 1/30 of a second.
Comparisons made for: 10:35:29, 10:39:28, 10:43:27, 10:47:25, 10:51:24, 10:55:23
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: tinman on March 24, 2018, 09:20:52 AM
Brad,


Every relay only needs to switch once every 12 steps (each coil is switched every 6 steps, by switching the VDD relay once every 12 steps and the GND relay once every 12 steps with an offset of 6 steps between the two).


12 steps is equivalent to 60Hz, or 16.6ms. Each relay is on for 6 steps (8.3ms), then off for 6 steps (8.3ms). The relays can probably do this as their mechanical operation time is 10ms (just a delay and not relevant) and fall-off time 5ms which is smaller than 8.3ms.


PmgR

Are you sure about that ?.

Here is what i see,and how i think it works.

Pierre has 36 coils and 72 relays.
The center coil (the output coil)is what gives the 60Hz AC output.
In order for that to happen,each coil on the stator has to be switched on twice per cycle--once to produce the top half of the AC sine,and once in the opposite polarity to produce the bottom half of the AC sine. Each coil has 2 relays assigned to it to perform this feat,one relay to switch the coil on in one polarity,and the 2nd relay to switch the coil on in the opposite polarity 180* through the cycle.

So every relay has to switch on and off every cycle,and it has to do this 60 times a second to achieve the 60Hz frequency.
Every single coil has to be switched on and off 120 times per second,where 60 times is of one polarity,and the other 60 times is of the opposite polarity.

So,knowing all this,we know that each relay must be able to switch on and off 60 times per second-cleanly.
This is the only way a clean AC sine can be produced in this device,and even then you would see the step charging in the sine wave via a scope.

Brad

français
Etes-vous sûr de cela? ... voici ce que je vois, et comment je pense que cela fonctionne. Pierre a 36 bobines et 72 relais. La bobine centrale (la bobine de sortie) est ce qui donne la sortie AC 60Hz. Pour que cela se produise, chaque bobine du stator doit être allumée deux fois par cycle - une fois pour produire la moitié supérieure de la sinusoïde AC, et une fois dans la polarité opposée pour produire la moitié inférieure de la sinusoïde AC. Chaque bobine a 2 relais qui lui sont assignés pour effectuer cette tâche, un relais pour allumer la bobine en une polarité, et le second relais pour allumer la bobine en polarité opposée 180 * pendant le cycle. Donc, chaque relais doit allumer et éteindre chaque cycle, et il doit le faire 60 fois par seconde pour atteindre la fréquence 60Hz. Chaque bobine doit être allumée et éteinte 120 fois par seconde, où 60 fois est d'une polarité, et l'autre 60 fois est de la polarité opposée. Donc, sachant tout cela, nous savons que chaque relais doit être capable d'allumer et d'éteindre 60 fois par seconde - proprement. C'est la seule façon de produire une sinusoïde AC propre dans cet appareil, et même alors, vous verriez l'étape de charge dans l'onde sinusoïdale via un osciloscope.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 24, 2018, 11:36:21 AM
Il y a un chevauchement. Les relais sont actifs un peu plus longtemps.
Parfois 9 transistors sont actifs en même temps et non pas 6.

There is overlap. Relays are active a little longer
Sometimes 9 transistors are active at the same time and not 6.

Pierre a dit:
Pour éviter que le champ magnétique ne se coupe il faut a un certain moment avoir deux relais activés en même temps donc 5 bobines sur 6 fonctionnent réellement ex: relais 1 on ,relais 2 on ,relais 1 off ,relais 3 on ,relais 2 off etc. Cette séquence évite de couper le champ magnétique tout en changent la polarité des bobines: c'est une séquence assez complexe au niveau des transistors . Comme ma sortie de l'arduino est positive et que les relais s'activent avec du négatif alors il a été nécessaire de mettre des transistors pour pouvoir activer les relais .

Pierre said:
To prevent the magnetic field from being cut, it is necessary at a certain moment to have two relays activated at the same time so 5 coils out of 6 actually work eg: relay 1 on, relay 2 on, relay 1 off, relay 3 on, relay 2 off etc. This sequence avoids to cut the magnetic field while changing the polarity of the coils: it is a rather complex sequence at the level of the transistors. As my output from the arduino is positive and the relays activate with the negative then it was necessary to put transistors in order to activate the relays.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 24, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
Tinman, I agree with you, here is my analysis:
The stator has 6 induction poles: 3 North + 3 South.
Every time a pole passes in front of the rotor (immobile here) there is an alternation.
For a complete wave, you need N-S then return to N.
In a complete rotation, we have N-S-N-S-N-S, that is 3 complete waves (considering that the cycle continues).
For 60 waves per second - 60 Hz - it takes 20 full rotations per second.
During a rotation, each relay is closed / open 3 times, if necessary see again the animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU)
So each relay is actuated 3 X 20 = 60 times per second.

Français
Tinman, je suis d'accord avec vous, voici mon analyse :
Le stator possède 6 pôles d'induction : 3 Nord + 3 Sud.
Chaque fois qu'un pôle passe devant le rotor (immobile ici) il se produit une alternance.
Pour une onde complète, il faut N-S puis revenir à N.
Dans une rotation complète, nous avons N-S-N-S-N-S, soit 3 ondes complètes (en considérant que le cycle se poursuit).
Pour 60 ondes par secondes – 60 Hz – il faut 20 rotations complètes par seconde.
Pendant une rotation, chaque relais est fermé/ouvert 3 fois, si besoin revoir l'animation : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU)
Donc, chaque relais est actionné 3 X 20 = 60 fois par seconde.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 01:29:11 PM
@ MichelM
Did you agree to my analysis in post:  Reply #9 ?
On time 1.39ms.
Regards Arne

français

@ MichelM
avez-vous accepté mon analyse dans le post: Réponse # 9?
temps allumer de 1.39ms.
Cordialement Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 24, 2018, 02:56:02 PM
Je pense que le chevauchement se fait peut-être sur 3 bobines adjacentes à la fois:
L1 on, L 2 on, L3 on, L1 off, L4 on, L2 off, L5 on, L3 OFF, ...
Regarder cette séquence d'images : les flèches montrent les LED en train de s'allumer, pleinement allumés ou en train de s'éteindre.
Ceci expliquerait que les relais sont activés 2 fois plus longtemps et arrivent à suivre la cadence.

I think that the overlap may be on 3 coils adjacent to each other:
L1 on, L2 on, L3 on, L1 off, L4 on, L2 off, L5 on, L3 OFF, ...
Watch this sequence of images: the arrows show the LED lighting up, fully on or going off
This would explain that the relays are activated 2 times longer and can follow the tempo
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 03:31:19 PM
cheors
What you see here is a Film frame taken in that moment a switch event takes place.
That's why you see tree (3) LED diodes lit instead of two.
You can also see that the intensity is different from some LEDs depending to the film exposure time.
When 3 leds are lit, always the ("fixed") LED in the middle is brighter.
My opinion.

Regards Arne

français
Ce que vous voyez ici est un cadre de film pris dans ce moment un événement de commutation a lieu.
C'est pourquoi vous voyez (3) LED diodes allumées au lieu de deux.
Vous pouvez également voir que l'intensité est différente de certaines LED en fonction du temps d'exposition du film.
Lorsque 3 LED sont allumés, la LED ("fixe") au milieu a toujours plus d'intensité lumineuse
Mon avis. Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 24, 2018, 03:49:26 PM
@ MichelM
Did you agree to my analysis in post:  Reply #9 ?
On time 1.39ms.
Regards Arne

français

@ MichelM
avez-vous accepté mon analyse dans le post: Réponse # 9?
temps allumer de 1.39ms.
Cordialement Arne

Seaad, je suis d'accord avec votre analyse, mais ma déduction est que les relais ne fonctionnent qu'à 60 Hz, ce qui est concevable.

Selon ma compréhension d'aujourd'hui, toutes les séquences de fermeture ou d'ouverture des relais ont le même timing.
Je le vérifierai lorsque je ferai le test, mais je conçois ceci :

- Lorsque le dispositif est déjà démarré, il y a une action simultanée sur 6 relais en même temps. Chaque commande agit sur 6 relais à la fois :

Considérons 6 relais (la référence) fermés [3 relais (+) et 3 (-)] ;
1/ - Les 6 précédents relais [3 relais (+) et 3 (-)] sont coupés ;
2/ - En suite, les 6 relais suivants [3 relais (+) et 3 (-)] sont mis sous tension pour une durée de 1.38 ms ;

Pendant ce cycle, les 6 relais de référence, restent passants, donc il n'y a pas de rupture des champs magnétiques.

Dans le cycle suivant, les 6 relais suivants deviennent les relais de référence, et le cycle se poursuit...

Dans cette description, chacun des 72 relais est toujours soumis à la même cadence de mise sous tension et de coupure, soit 60 fois par seconde (chaque 16.66 ms) :
- Mise sous tension pour une durée de 1.3888 ms ;
- Suivie d'une durée hors tension de 11 X 1.3888 = 15.2768 ms.

Donc, la fréquence d'utilisation de chaque relais n'est que de 60 Hz (16.66 ms).

English
Seaad, I agree with your analysis, but my deduction is that relays only work at 60 Hz, which is conceivable.

According to my understanding today, all the closing or opening sequences of the relays have the same timing.
I will check it when I do the test, but here is how I understand it:

- When the device is already started, there is simultaneous action on 6 relays at the same time. Each command acts on 6 relays at a time:

Consider 6 relays (the reference) closed [3 relays (+) and 3 (-)];
1 / - The 6 previous relays [3 relays (+) and 3 (-)] are off;
2 / - Next, the next 6 relays [3 relays (+) and 3 (-)] are energized for a duration of 1.38 ms;

During this cycle, the 6 relays of reference, remain passers, so there is no rupture of the magnetic fields.

In the next cycle, the next 6 relays become the reference relays, and the cycle continues ...

In this description, each of the 72 relays is always subjected to the same power-up and cut-off rate, ie 60 times per second (each 16.66 ms):
- Power on for a duration of 1.3888 ms;
- Followed by a power off time of 11 X 1.3888 = 15.2768 ms.

Therefore, the frequency of use of each relay is only 60 Hz (16.66 ms).
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
Anybody got the relay cards?? If so, can you perform a duty cycle test with the relays so we all know facts. Maximum speed with 50/50%, 10/ 90% and 90/10% pulse width.

Quelqu'un a eu les cartes relais? Si oui, pouvez-vous effectuer un test de cycle de service avec les relais afin que nous connaissions tous les faits. Vitesse maximale avec 50/50%, 10/90% et 90/10% de largeur d'impulsion.

Reply #29: ""Seaad, je suis d'accord avec votre analyse, mais ma déduction est que les relais ne fonctionnent qu'à 60 Hz, ce qui est concevable.""
Reply #29: ""Seaad, I agree with your analysis, but my deduction is that the relays only work at 60 Hz, which is conceivable.""

Reply #29: Thanks MichelM
Merci MichelM

But: It is impossible for those relays to be enabled for as short as 1.34 milliseconds! (with accuracy)
MAIS. Il est impossible que ces relais soient activés pour aussi peu que 1,34 millisecondes! (avec précision)

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 24, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
J'ai procédé à un comptage du nombre d'impulsion sur la scoopshot de pierre voir l'image ci-dessous, et j'ai effectivement 72 impulsions pendant une sinusoïde, sachant qu'une rotation complète a fourni 3 ondes, le nombre d'impulsions nécessaires et donc de 216 impulsions / tour.
pour arrivée à une fréquence de 60hz il faut 20 tours / s, ce qui nécessite le nombre impressionnant de 4320 impulsions par seconde, 60 on, off / s pour chaque relais?
ceci confirme l'analyse de Tinman.
pour aller plus loin j'aimerais que quelqu'un nous donne la durée exacte d'un cycle de 360 °

maintenant je me demande s'il est possible que le fréquence-metre que pierre à utiliser peut
avoir détecter et compter le nombre d'impulsions plutôt que le nombre d'ondes sinusoïdales.

mosha

English
I proceeded to count the number of pulses on Pierre scope shot (image below), and I counted 72 pulses during one sine wave. Knowing that a complete rotation provided 3 sine waves, so the number of pulses is therefore 216 pulses per turn.
To get to 60Hz frequency it takes 20 turns per second, which requires the impressive 4320 pulses per second, 60 on, off per second to each relay?
This confirms Tinman's analysis.
Before going any further it would be nice if someone knows the exact duration of one 360° cycle.
I'm now wondering if it's possible that the frequency meter Pierre used could of detected and counted the number of pulses rather than the number of sine waves?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 04:55:28 PM
maintenant je me demande s'il est possible que le fréquence-metre que pierre à utiliser peut
avoir détecter et compter le nombre d'impulsions plutôt que le nombre d'ondes sinusoïdales.

Now I'm wondering if it's possible that the frequency meter Pierre used could of detected and counted the number of pulses rather than the number of sine waves?

mosha
Clever idea,  Idée brillante
But how to run a Microwave Oven on a too low frequency ??  , Mais comment faire fonctionner un four à micro-ondes sur une fréquence trop basse?

Anyhow I could see that the Coffee mug was turning normally in the second film. (Rotation from a shaded pole motor)  , De toute façon je pouvais voir que la tasse de café tournait normalement dans le deuxième film  (Rotation à partir d'un moteur à pôle ombré).


You can clearly hear the rhythm from the relays in the first beginning of the second movie. Or at 8 min. 29 sec. first film. It sounds like a multi cylinder engine running on idle.
The frequency is absolutely below 10 Hertz.

I can easily count to four between every second heard from my clock. With 3 magnets virtually rotating that makes about12Hz from the output coil.

Fr: Vous pouvez clairement entendre le rythme des relais dans le premier début du deuxième film. Ou à 8 min. 29 sec. premier film. Cela ressemble à un moteur à plusieurs cylindres fonctionnant au ralenti.
La fréquence est absolument inférieure à 10 Hertz.

Je peux facilement compter jusqu'à quatre entre chaque seconde entendu de mon horloge. Avec 3 aimants tournant virtuellement qui font environ 12Hz de la bobine de sortie
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 24, 2018, 06:03:27 PM
cheors
What you see here is a Film frame taken in that moment a switch event takes place.
That's why you see tree (3) LED diodes lit instead of two.
You can also see that the intensity is different from some LEDs depending to the film exposure time.
When 3 leds are lit, always the ("fixed") LED in the middle is brighter.
My opinion.

Regards Arne


You are probably right, may be i am
We need the arduino program to konw the truth

Vous avez probablement raison, Mais c'est peut=être moi.
Il nous faut le programme Arduino pour savoir la vérité.


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 24, 2018, 07:00:41 PM
Seaad
quot
"Clever idea,  Idée brillante
But how to run a Microwave Oven on a too low frequency ??  , Mais comment faire fonctionner un four à micro-ondes sur une fréquence trop basse?"

FR:je n'en sais rien ,mais je me suis poser la question si c'était possible que le Micro onde aurait  une alimentation à convertisseur capable de convertir ce type d'onde .
EN:I do not know, but I wondered if it was possible that the Microwave would  have a
converter power supply capable of converting this type of wave.



quot
 Fr:
" Vous pouvez clairement entendre le rythme des relais dans le premier début du deuxième film. Ou à 8 min. 29 sec. premier film. Cela ressemble à un moteur à plusieurs cylindres fonctionnant au ralenti.
La fréquence est absolument inférieure à 10 Hertz."

FR:la plage des 10hz me semble tout à fait correcte

EN:the beach of 10hz seems to me quite correct
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 24, 2018, 07:18:17 PM
MAIS. Il est impossible que ces relais soient activés pour aussi peu que 1,34 millisecondes! (avec précision)

Je vais approfondir mes connaissances avec Arduino pour notre projet, mais je vois que Arduino offre une fonction qui gère le temps en microcecondes, avec une précision allant jusqu'à 3 µs.
Cette fonction est la suivante : delayMicroseconds()
Je pense que c'est celle qu'il faut utiliser.
Voir cette page : http://www.mon-club-elec.fr/pmwiki_reference_arduino/pmwiki.php?n=Main.DelayMicroseconds (http://www.mon-club-elec.fr/pmwiki_reference_arduino/pmwiki.php?n=Main.DelayMicroseconds)

Exemple de code minimaliste qui utilise la méthode :

// Pour notre exemple, nous avons besoin d'une interruption du relais 1340 microsecondes (µs) après sa mise sous tension
// Evidemment, il faudra ajuster en tenant compte de son propre temps de reaction à la fermeture et à l'ouverture

int pinRelay_8 = 8;   // utilise la broche numérique n°8

void setup()
{
  pinMode(pinRelay_8, OUTPUT);   // configure la broche n° 8 en sortie
}

void loop() // boucle tous les 16666 microsecondes correspondant au cycle de fermeture du relais à 60 Hz
                // il faut soustraire la pause de 1340 microsecondes de la méthode actionRelay, qui est blocante. Cela fait 16666 - 1340 = 15326 μs
{
  actionRelay(pinRelay_8);       // appelle la méthode qui ferme le relais pendant 1340 microsecondes
  delayMicroseconds(15326);   // pause de 15326 microsecondes avant une nouvelle fermeture du relais
}

void actionRelay(int relayNumber)
{
  digitalWrite(relayNumber, HIGH);   // Fermeture du relais
  delayMicroseconds(1340);             // pause de 1340 microsecondes
  digitalWrite(relayNumber, LOW);    // Ouverture du relais
}


English

I will deepen my knowledge with Arduino for our project, but I see that Arduino offers a function that manages time in microconds, with a precision of up to 3 μs.
This function is: delayMicroseconds ()
I think it's the one to use.
See this page: http://www.mon-club-elec.fr/pmwiki_reference_arduino/pmwiki.php?n=Main.DelayMicroseconds

Example of a minimalist code that uses the method:

// For our example, we need a 1340 microsecond (μs) relay interrupt after it is powered up
// Obviously, it will be necessary to adjust taking into account its own reaction time at closing and opening

int pinRelay_8 = 8; // use digital pin n ° 8

void setup ()
{
  pinMode (pinRelay_8, OUTPUT); // configure pin 8 output
}

void loop () // loop every 16666 microseconds corresponding to the closing cycle of the 60 Hz relay
                 // We must subtract the pause of 1340 microseconds from the actionRelay method, which is blocking. This done 16666 - 1340 = 15326 μs
{
  actionRelay (pinRelay_8); // call the method that closes the relay for 1340 microseconds
  delayMicroseconds (15326); // pause 15326 microseconds before releasing the relay again
}

void actionRelay (int relayNumber)
{
  digitalWrite (relayNumber, HIGH); // Closing the relay
  delayMicroseconds (1340); // break 1340 microseconds
  digitalWrite (relayNumber, LOW); // Opening the relay
}
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 07:32:22 PM
-->ArtMosart, All
Quote: "I do not know, but I wondered if it was possible that the Microwave would  have a
converter power supply capable of converting this type of wave."

I can't answer that. No knowledge.
My question is, however: Why does Pierre's Microwave Oven consumes about 1600W?  Mine consumes  800W. Different types??

Fr:
Je ne peux pas répondre ça. Pas de connaissances.
Ma question est, cependant: Pourquoi le micro-ondes  de Pierre consomme environ 1600W? Le mien consomme environ 800W. Différents types??

Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 07:55:19 PM
Je vais approfondir mes connaissances avec Arduino pour notre projet, mais je vois que Arduino offre une fonction qui gère le temps en microcecondes, avec une précision allant jusqu'à 3 µs.
Cette fonction est la suivante : delayMicroseconds()
Je pense que c'est celle qu'il faut utiliser.
Voir cette page : http://www.mon-club-elec.fr/pmwiki_reference_arduino/pmwiki.php?n=Main.DelayMicroseconds (http://www.mon-club-elec.fr/pmwiki_reference_arduino/pmwiki.php?n=Main.DelayMicroseconds)

I don't understand what you posted until it's translated.
But if you're asking me about Arduino then I'm lost. I don't use it. I'm using mechanical circuits at this time.

Regards Arne

français
Je ne comprends pas ce que vous avez posté jusqu'à ce qu'il soit traduit.
Mais si vous me posez des questions sur Arduino, je suis perdu. Je ne l'utilise pas. J'utilise des circuits mécaniques en ce moment.
Cordialement Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 24, 2018, 08:26:07 PM
français
Je ne comprends pas ce que vous avez posté jusqu'à ce qu'il soit traduit.
Mais si vous me posez des questions sur Arduino, je suis perdu. Je ne l'utilise pas. J'utilise des circuits mécaniques en ce moment.
Cordialement Arne

chez GM les micro onde consomme jusqu'à 1000w environ ,les 1600W me parait une estimation baser sur les données prélevées  sur le rotor fixe , vue la forme d'onde cela suppose une imprécision de taille .
cependant même à 800W ça reste très performant .

cordialement ,Mosha
at GM the microwave consumes up to 1000w, the 1600W seems to me an estimate based on the data taken from the fixed rotor , given the waveform this assumes a size inaccuracy. however even at 800W it remains very powerful.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: iflewmyown on March 24, 2018, 09:08:14 PM
In the U.S. many commercial microwaves consume about 1500 - 1600 watts.
Garry

français
Aux États-Unis, de nombreux micro-ondes commerciales consomment environ 1500 à 1600 watts.
Garry
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 24, 2018, 09:14:19 PM
In the U.S. many commercial microwaves consume about 1500 - 1600 watts.
Garry

français
Aux États-Unis, de nombreux micro-ondes commerciales consomment environ 1500 à 1600 watts.
Garry

Specification example of such an oven.
http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/JES1142SJ (http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/JES1142SJ)

Regards
L192

français

Exemple de spécification d'un tel four.
http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/JES1142SJ (http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/JES1142SJ)
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 24, 2018, 09:22:53 PM
all,

je me demande si les moteur universel comme sur l'image ci dessous ne pourrait pas convenir pour ce type d'expérimentation ,il ont l'avantage d'être déjà bobiner comme il est indiquer ,en plus iles sont plus facile à trouver.pratiquement il suffit de piloter le rotor de façon à créer un champ tournant vers les bobine
du stator ,le rotor étant  maintenu physiquement fixe .les bobine du stator serviront de sortie .
en plus on trouve facilement des moteur à rotor de 36 poles.
pour ceux qui serais  intéresser  ,on peut aussi les piloter mécaniquement très facilement .

juste une idée ;)
all, I wonder if the universal motor as in the picture below could not be suitable for this type of experimentation, it have the advantage of being already wound as it is indicated, in addition they are easier to find. it is enough to control the rotor so as to create a field rotating towards the coil of the stator, the rotor being held physically fixed .the stator coil will serve as an output. in addition, it is easy to find 36-pole rotor motors. for those who would be interested, we can also drive mechanically very easily. just an idea
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Mem on March 24, 2018, 09:23:27 PM
As I was falling asleep the other night I was imagining Pierre's DZ generator at works in a semiconscious state.
I saw clearly that  choppy sign wave, caused by the low speed relay contacts and everything else seemed to be just fine, like N & S pole orientations.

If you are planning to replicate this generator it might be a good idea use relays at first, and once you achieve similar success like Pierre, then you can switch to solid state devices to replace relays. 

Being able to power the coils with IGBT's, Mosfet's or transistors etc. will produce a cleaner sign wave and give you adjustable frequency similar to VFD (Variable Frequency Drives)
The ultimate solution for DZ Generator power supply would be If some one can design a "Multi channel output regenerative VFD"   

français

Alors que je m'endormais l'autre soir, j'imaginais le générateur DZ de Pierre à des œuvres dans un état semi-conscient.
J'ai vu clairement que l'onde de signe saccadée, causée par les contacts de relais à basse vitesse et tout le reste semblait être très bien, comme les orientations de pôle N & S.
Si vous envisagez de reproduire ce générateur, il peut être judicieux d'utiliser des relais au début, et une fois que vous avez obtenu un succès similaire à celui de Pierre, vous pouvez passer à des dispositifs à semi-conducteurs pour remplacer les relais.
Etre capable d'alimenter les bobines avec des IGBT, des Mosfet ou des transistors etc. produira une onde de signe plus propre et vous donnera une fréquence ajustable similaire à celle des VFD (Variable Frequency Drives)
La solution ultime pour l'alimentation du générateur DZ serait Si quelqu'un peut concevoir un «VFD régénératif à sortie multicanaux»
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 24, 2018, 09:29:17 PM


Update:
https://youtu.be/3-HHaPDOWAM
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 09:44:51 PM
--> mosha

Good idea I'm also a fan of to find the "EFFECT".
But maybe You should take that motor idea to the parallel thread instead.

http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video#.Wra2GC7wapo

I suspect that many here wants to replicate Pierres version.

Fr:
Bonne idée je suis aussi fan de trouver "l'EFFET".
Mais peut-être que vous devriez prendre cette idée de moteur au fil parallèle à la place.
http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video#.Wra2GC7wapo

Je soupçonne que beaucoup d'entre nous veulent répliquer la version de Pierres.

Best regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 24, 2018, 10:02:08 PM
luc

ta réalisation et excellente  ,ça fait très plaisir à voir ,bravo.
Mosha

English
your design is excellent, it's a very nice layout, bravo.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ariovaldo on March 24, 2018, 10:09:21 PM

Update:
https://youtu.be/3-HHaPDOWAM (https://youtu.be/3-HHaPDOWAM)

Star generator. Stargen. lol
Man, that looks really good!!!!

français
Générateur d'étoiles. Stargen  ;D
ça a l'air vraiment bien mon homme!!!!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 24, 2018, 10:37:45 PM
You can clearly hear the rhythm from the relays in the first beginning of the second movie. Or at 8 min. 29 sec. first film. It sounds like a multi cylinder engine running on idle.
The frequency is absolutely below 10 Hertz.

seaad,
totally agree with that!
I just tested the Arduino program I posted in my # 35.
At this rate, there is no visible blinking of the led. We perceive a constant light.
So, I share your opinion, the meter Pierre used does not measure the frequency of the current, but rather must measure the frequency of the pulses.
If this is the case, the current frequency of his device should be only 5 Hz.
At this frequency, each relay is contacted every 200 ms only.

I just set my program at 5 Hz, and the flashing is identical to that of the leds in Pierre's video.


Français
tout à fait d'accord avec cela !
Je viens de tester le programme Arduino que j'ai posté dans mon # 35.
A ce rythme, il n'y a plus de clignotement perceptible de la led. On perçoit une lumière constante.
Donc, je partage votre avis, le voltmètre de Pierre ne mesure pas la fréquence du courant, mais doit plutôt mesurer la fréquence des impulsions.
Si c'est le cas, la fréquence du courant de son dispositif doit être de 5 Hz seulement.
A cette fréquence, chaque relais n'est sollicité que toutes les 200 ms.

Je viens de régler mon programme à 5 Hz, et le clignotement est identique à celui des leds de Pierre.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 24, 2018, 10:44:10 PM
 MichelM
 :)
 8) 8)  200ms! That gives the short on time to the relays: 200/12 = 16.7 ms.

So the Microwave Oven runs on the "trash" pulses ??

Fr: 200ms! Cela donne un temps court de fonctionnement du relais: 200/12 = 16,7 ms.
Donc, le four micro-ondes fonctionne sur les impulsions "merde" ??
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 24, 2018, 10:51:59 PM
To everyone
I have some good news which I've been holding on for some days until we had it tested and confirmed to work.
Forum member Chet made arrangements with slider2732 (member of our group) to write an Arduino switching sequence program for me since I don't know how to do that.
However, Pierre sent me his program he used in his demonstrated device. So I sent the program to slider2732 for testing. He was happy to report it was a much simpler program then he was writing.  He loaded it in his Mega 2560 and the program worked right away.
He even made a demo video to show it working: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc)

Pierre requested I share the program with serious builders only. This will be your gift from Pierre once you get to the point of needing it.
So please stop trying to figure out how the Mega 2560 Arduino will work since we have already confirmed it works.
If you want to receive the program, then you have to build it to the point that only the program is needed. Once I see your video demo to confirm you are ready then I will send you the program.
Please don't ask for it otherwise. I am only following Pierre's request.

Regards
Luc

français
À tout le monde
J'ai quelques bonnes nouvelles que j'ai tenues pendant quelques jours jusqu'à ce que nous l'ayons testé et confirmé fonctionnel.
Le membre du forum Chet a fait des arrangements avec slider2732 (membre de notre groupe) pour écrire un programme de séquence de commutation Arduino pour moi car je ne sais pas comment faire.
Cependant, Pierre m'a envoyé son programme qu'il a utilisé dans son appareil démontré. J'ai donc envoyé le programme à slider2732 pour le tester. Il était heureux de rapporter que c'était un programme beaucoup plus simple qu'il essayait d'écrire. Il a chargé le programme dans son Mega 2560 et sa fonctionné tout de suite.

Il a même fait une vidéo de démonstration pour le montrer fonctionner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc)

Pierre a demandé que je partage le programme avec des constructeurs sérieux seulement. Ce sera votre cadeau de Pierre une fois que vous en aurez besoin.
Alors s'il vous plaît arrêter d'essayer de comprendre comment le Mega 2560 Arduino va fonctionner puisque nous avons déjà confirmé que cela fonctionne.
Si vous voulez recevoir le programme, vous devez construire au point que seul le programme est nécessaire. Une fois que je vois votre vidéo démo pour confirmer que vous êtes prêt, je vous enverrai le programme.
S'il vous plaît ne le demandez pas autrement. Je ne fais que suivre la demande de Pierre.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Mem on March 24, 2018, 11:04:52 PM
To everyone
I have some good news which I've been holding on for some days until we had it tested and confirmed to work.
Forum member Chet made arrangements with slider2732 (member of our group) to write an Arduino switching sequence program for me since I don't know how to do that.
However, Pierre sent me his program he used in his demonstrated device. So I sent the program to slider2732 for testing. He was happy to report it was a much simpler program then he was writing.  He loaded it and the program worked right away.
He even made a demo video to show it working: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc)

Pierre requested I share the program with serious builders only. This will be your gift from Pierre once you get to the point of needing it.
So please stop trying to figure out how the Mega 2560 Arduino will work since we have already confirmed it works.
If you want to receive the program, then you have to build it to the point that only the program is needed. Once I see your video demo to confirm you are ready then I will send you the program.
Please don't ask for it otherwise. I am only following Pierre's request.

Regards
Luc

français
À tout le monde
J'ai quelques bonnes nouvelles que j'ai tenues pendant quelques jours jusqu'à ce que nous l'ayons testé et confirmé fonctionnel.
Le membre du forum Chet a fait des arrangements avec slider2732 (membre de notre groupe) pour écrire un programme de séquence de commutation Arduino pour moi car je ne sais pas comment faire.
Cependant, Pierre m'a envoyé son programme qu'il a utilisé dans son appareil démontré. J'ai donc envoyé le programme à slider2732 pour le tester. Il était heureux de rapporter que c'était un programme beaucoup plus simple qu'il écrivait. Il l'a chargé et le programme a fonctionné tout de suite.

Il a même fait une vidéo de démonstration pour le montrer fonctionner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPZn3CcdVVc)

Pierre a demandé que je partage le programme avec des constructeurs sérieux seulement. Ce sera votre cadeau de Pierre une fois que vous en aurez besoin.
Alors s'il vous plaît arrêter d'essayer de comprendre comment le Mega 2560 Arduino va fonctionner puisque nous avons déjà confirmé que cela fonctionne.
Si vous voulez recevoir le programme, vous devez le construire au point que seul le programme est nécessaire. Une fois que je vois votre démo vidéo pour confirmer que vous êtes prêt, je vous enverrai le programme.
S'il vous plaît ne le demandez pas autrement. Je ne fais que suivre la demande de Pierre.
Cordialement
Luc


Luc,
Wow Pierre is truly a noble man.

français
Wow Pierre est vraiment un homme noble.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 24, 2018, 11:21:08 PM
Pierre just posted a video of his code: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TACAVCU2fIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TACAVCU2fIY)

Looks like his potentiometer value is mapped to a range from x=1 to 10ms. He sets three outputs high at a time and then issues a delay(x) and then turns the next three coils on, delay(x), turn the first three coils off, etc.

Each relay stays on for 3*x ms, then remains off for 33*x ms. Switching 12 succeeding relays in sequence takes 36*x ms. His program describes one cycle (of the three per full rotation), then repeats.

loop {
1 on 13 on 25 on
delay(x)
(bug, see below: bold lines below should actually go here)
2 on 14 on 26 on
delay(x)
1 off 13 off 25 off
delay(x)
3 on 15 on 27 on
delay(x)
2 off 14 off 26 off
delay(x)
etc..


delay(x)
12 on 24 on 36 on
delay(x)
11 off 23 off 35 off
delay(x)
12 off 24 off 36 off
delay (x)
}

I do note he might have a bug in his code wrapping the loop: this last line should have been positioned after the very first two lines :
1 on 13 on 25 on
delay(x)
12 off 24 off 36 off
delay (x)

2 on 14 on 26 on
delay(x)

But hey, maybe this is what causes overunity  ;)  (just kidding).

PmgR

français

Pierre vient de poster une vidéo de son code: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TACAVCU2fIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TACAVCU2fIY)
On dirait que sa valeur de potentiomètre est mappée sur une plage de x = 1 à 10ms. Il règle trois sorties à la fois, puis émet un retard (x), puis active les trois bobines suivantes, retarde (x), éteint les trois premières bobines, etc.
Chaque relais  reste allumé pendant 3 * x ms, puis reste éteint pendant 33 * x ms. La commutation de 12 relais successifs en séquence prend 36 * x ms. Son programme décrit un cycle (des trois par rotation complète), puis répète.
(bug, voir ci-dessous: les lignes en gras ci-dessous devraient effectivement aller ici)
Je note qu'il pourrait avoir un bug dans son code qui encapsule la boucle: cette dernière ligne aurait dû être positionnée après les deux premières lignes:
Mais bon, c'est peut-être ce qui cause la surunité ;) (je plaisante).
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 24, 2018, 11:47:16 PM
More news
I just checked with Pierre to see if the program can now go public and he replied YES! so here it is.

français
Plus de nouvelles
Je viens de vérifier avec Pierre pour voir si le programme peut maintenant être rendu public et il a répondu OUI! donc c'est ici.

/*
  Blink  This example code is in the public domain.

  modified 8 May 2014
  by Scott Fitzgerald
 */


// the setup function runs once when you press reset or power the board
void setup() {
  // initialize digital pin 13 as an output.

   pinMode(1, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(2, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(3, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(4, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(5, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(6, OUTPUT);
     pinMode(7,OUTPUT);
   pinMode(8, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(9, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(10, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(11, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(12, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(13, OUTPUT);
     pinMode(14,OUTPUT);
   pinMode(15, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(16, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(17, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(18, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(19, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(20, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(21, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(22, OUTPUT);
     pinMode(23,OUTPUT);
   pinMode(24, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(25, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(26, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(27, OUTPUT);
   pinMode(28, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(29, OUTPUT);
     pinMode(30,OUTPUT);
   pinMode(31, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(32, OUTPUT);
      pinMode(33, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(34, OUTPUT);
     pinMode(35,OUTPUT);
   pinMode(36, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(37, OUTPUT);
}

int x = 0;

// the loop function runs over and over again forever
void loop(){
 int y= analogRead(0); // transforme x en une valeur de 0 à 20 (millisecondes)
  x= map(y,0,1000 ,1,100);



  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(1,LOW),  digitalWrite(13,LOW),  digitalWrite(25,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(2,LOW),  digitalWrite(14,LOW),  digitalWrite(26,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(3,LOW),  digitalWrite(15,LOW),  digitalWrite(27,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(4,LOW),  digitalWrite(16,LOW),  digitalWrite(28,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(5,LOW),  digitalWrite(17,LOW),  digitalWrite(29,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(31,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(6,LOW),  digitalWrite(18,LOW),  digitalWrite(30,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(32,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(7,LOW),  digitalWrite(19,LOW),  digitalWrite(31,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH), digitalWrite(33,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(8,LOW),  digitalWrite(20,LOW),  digitalWrite(32,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH), digitalWrite(34,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(9,LOW),  digitalWrite(21,LOW),  digitalWrite(33,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(23,HIGH), digitalWrite(35,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(10,LOW),  digitalWrite(22,LOW),  digitalWrite(34,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH), digitalWrite(36,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(11,LOW),  digitalWrite(23,LOW),  digitalWrite(35,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(12,LOW),  digitalWrite(24,LOW),  digitalWrite(36,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second


 
    }
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Magluvin on March 25, 2018, 12:02:54 AM
seaad,
totally agree with that!
I just tested the Arduino program I posted in my # 35.
At this rate, there is no visible blinking of the led. We perceive a constant light.
So, I share your opinion, the meter Pierre used does not measure the frequency of the current, but rather must measure the frequency of the pulses.
If this is the case, the current frequency of his device should be only 5 Hz.
At this frequency, each relay is contacted every 200 ms only.

I just set my program at 5 Hz, and the flashing is identical to that of the leds in Pierre's video.


Français
tout à fait d'accord avec cela !
Je viens de tester le programme Arduino que j'ai posté dans mon # 35.
A ce rythme, il n'y a plus de clignotement perceptible de la led. On perçoit une lumière constante.
Donc, je partage votre avis, le voltmètre de Pierre ne mesure pas la fréquence du courant, mais doit plutôt mesurer la fréquence des impulsions.
Si c'est le cas, la fréquence du courant de son dispositif doit être de 5 Hz seulement.
A cette fréquence, chaque relais n'est sollicité que toutes les 200 ms.

Je viens de régler mon programme à 5 Hz, et le clignotement est identique à celui des leds de Pierre.

Nice find. I wondered about that also. If the actual freq of the led run were 60 hz we wouldnt see it as we 'see' it. Im following a bit but have so much other stuff going on that I cant think deeply on this at the moment.  I hope it all works out for everyone. ;)
Not sure why it wouldnt be allowed for all to see and have, but Id like to see the arduino sketch. Not a lot of people do arduino programing and if it were available, others that are proficient with the programing may have an opportunity to possibly enhance or make mods in the future as this project develops, once they have a clear understanding of the original sunk in.

Mags

français
Belle trouvaille. Je me demandais à ce sujet aussi. Si la fréquence réelle de la led était de 60 hz nous ne le verrions pas comme nous le «voyons». Je suis en train de suivre un peu mais j'ai tellement d'autres choses que je ne peux pas vraiment y penser en ce moment. J'espère que tout fonctionne pour tout le monde. ;)
Je ne sais pas pourquoi il ne serait pas permis à tous de voir et d'avoir, mais j'aime voir le croquis arduino. Peu de gens font de la programmation en Arduino et si elle était disponible, d'autres qui maîtrisent la programmation pourraient avoir l'opportunité d'améliorer ou de faire des mods à l'avenir au fur et à mesure que ce projet se développera, une fois qu'ils auront compris.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 25, 2018, 12:39:08 AM
In MichelM s  film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU&feature=youtu.be)

he shows how one energized (interleaved) coil is shorted for a short while in each
step. Because the windings is interleaved in neighbor slots we probably also can expect
some transformer effect.

 Is it this short shortcut that makes the magnetic field seems to be "flowing" seen from the output coils view ??

Fr:
Dans le film de MichelM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8moN-nDHvzU&feature=youtu.be)
il montre comment une bobine excitée (entrelacée) est court-circuitée pendant un court moment dans chaque
étape. Parce que les enroulements sont entrelacés dans des fentes voisinne, nous pouvons également nous attendre
un effet de transformateur.
Est-ce ce court-circuit qui fait que le champ magnétique semble "coulent" vu de la bobines de sortie?

Arne

PS: even Figuera talks in his patent about "and always in contact with more than one
contact, rotates a brush “O" "
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on March 25, 2018, 01:25:14 AM
The code's author....    Fr. L'auteur du code ....
https://bastiaanvanhengel.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/arduino_projects_book.pdf (https://bastiaanvanhengel.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/arduino_projects_book.pdf)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 25, 2018, 01:41:33 AM
Am glad Pierre has posted the code...that's the right way forward and a good honest gesture  :D

Btw, my own version of the code is in the other thread, a few pages back. It was likely missed because, being a new member, the post was held back for moderator approval and the thread was moving quickly.
But now that the real code is available, excellent !

Oh, have just seen Stargate's post above.
It seems that Pierre has based it on the Blink sketch, a simple method to flash an LED on and off and the usual first program that people will upload to their Arduino. Scott Fitzgerald being the author of that famous sketch and Pierre has left a nod in an appreciative direction to that author for the start point of his own program.
Really, it's a big extraction of that sketch (Arduino language for program code), with the output pins all being listed and then the individual switchings on and off of the LEDs themselves. He also has a section that runs every loop, that sees where a variable pot is positioned, to change the speed of running if needed. 

français
Je suis content que Pierre ait posté le code ... c'est la bonne voie à suivre et un bon geste honnête  :D
Ma propre version du code est dans l'autre sujet, quelques pages en arrière. Il a probablement été manqué parce que, étant un nouveau membre, le poste a été retenu pour l'approbation du modérateur et le sujet se déplaçait rapidement. Mais maintenant que le vrai code est disponible, excellent!
Oh, viens de voir le post de Stargate ci-dessus. Il semble que Pierre l'ait basé sur le croquis de Blink, une méthode simple pour allumer et éteindre une LED et le premier programme habituel que les gens vont télécharger sur leur Arduino. Scott Fitzgerald étant l'auteur de ce célèbre sketch et Pierre a laissé un signe de tête dans une direction appréciative à cet auteur pour le point de départ de son propre programme. Vraiment, c'est une grande extraction de cette esquisse (langage Arduino pour le code de programme), avec les broches de sortie qui sont toutes listées, puis les commutations individuelles des LED elles-mêmes. Il a également une section qui exécute chaque boucle, qui voit où un pot variable est positionné, pour changer la vitesse de course si nécessaire.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on March 25, 2018, 03:21:14 AM
That's right, there is nothing remarkable in that sketch, it does essentially exactly the same thing that Slider's sketches do.

BUT... there seems to be something special about the timing. Is this an error or is it deliberate?

The sketch basically switches 12 groups of 3 LEDs on and off in overlapping sequence. There is a timing interval between each group On or Off command.

Group 1 is turned ON, TWO timing intervals pass, Group 1 is turned OFF.
Group 2 is turned ON... THREE timing intervals pass, group 2 is turned OFF.
Group 3 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 3 is turned OFF.
Group 4 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 4 is turned OFF.
Group 5 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 5 is turned OFF.
Group 6 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 6 is turned OFF.
and so on until...
Group 12 is turned ON... TWO intervals pass, Group 12 is turned OFF.

So Groups 1 and 12 are only on for TWO timing intervals, the other 10 groups are on for THREE timing intervals.

Is this deliberate? Did I miscount?

français
C'est vrai, il n'y a rien de remarquable dans ce croquis, il fait essentiellement exactement la même chose que les croquis de Slider.
MAIS ... il semble y avoir quelque chose de spécial à propos du timing. Est-ce une erreur ou est-ce délibéré?
Le  croquis bascule 12 groupes de 3 LED allumés et éteints dans une séquence de chevauchement. Il y a un intervalle de temps entre chaque commande On ou Off du groupe.
Le groupe 1 est activé, DEUX intervalles de synchronisation passent, le groupe 1 est désactivé.
Le groupe 2 est activé ... TROIS intervalles de synchronisation passent, le groupe 2 est désactivé.
Le groupe 3 est activé ... TROIS intervalles passent, le groupe 3 est désactivé.
Le groupe 4 est allumé ... Trois intervalles passent, le groupe 4 est désactivé.
Le groupe 5 est activé ... TROIS intervalles passent, le groupe 5 est désactivé.
Le groupe 6 est allumé ... Trois intervalles passent, le groupe 6 est désactivé.
et ainsi de suite jusqu'à ...
Le groupe 12 est activé ... DEUX intervalles passent, le groupe 12 est désactivé.
Ainsi, les groupes 1 et 12 ne sont activés que pour DEUX intervalles de temps, les 10 autres groupes sont activés pour TROIS intervalles de temps.
Est-ce délibéré? Ai-je mal compté?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on March 25, 2018, 03:50:40 AM
Here's Pierre's sketch altered for Luc's 30-slot stator. I followed the original pattern but with 10 instead of 12 pins between each group member.
Please check my work! 

Now we have 10 groups of 3 output pins, in overlapping sequence.

I've preserved the odd timing of the original (groups 1 and 10 only on for 2 timing intervals instead of 3.)

I also compressed the pin declarations into a for loop and changed some variable names and comments to make it clearer.

français
Voici le croquis de Pierre modifiée pour le stator à 30 emplacements de Luc. J'ai suivi le modèle original mais avec 10 broches au lieu de 12 entre chaque membre du groupe.
S'il vous plaît vérifier mon travail!
Maintenant, nous avons 10 groupes de 3 broches de sortie, en séquence de chevauchement.
J'ai conservé le timing étrange de l'original (groupes 1 et 10 seulement sur 2 intervalles de temps au lieu de 3.)
J'ai également compressé les déclarations de broche dans une boucle for et changé quelques noms de variables et commentaires pour le rendre plus clair.

/*
  Pierre's Original Sketch
 
 Modded by TK 24 Mar 2018
 
 altered for 30-slot stator (gotoluc)

 Speed control pot: connect wiper to Analog 0, legs of pot to +5v and GND
 
 
 
 */
 
int stepspeed = 0, rawspeed = 0;

void setup() {
 
  // initialize all needed digital pins as OUTPUT
  int pin = 1;
  for (pin = 1; pin <= 31; pin ++)
    pinMode(pin, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(A0, INPUT);
 
}

void loop() {
 
  rawspeed = analogRead(0); // read speedpot on Analog Pin 0
  stepspeed = map(rawspeed,0,1023,1,100);  //transforme rawspeed en une valeur de 0 à 100 (millisecondes)

  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(1,LOW),  digitalWrite(11,LOW),  digitalWrite(21,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(23,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(2,LOW),  digitalWrite(12,LOW),  digitalWrite(22,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(3,LOW),  digitalWrite(13,LOW),  digitalWrite(23,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(4,LOW),  digitalWrite(14,LOW),  digitalWrite(24,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(5,LOW),  digitalWrite(15,LOW),  digitalWrite(25,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(6,LOW),  digitalWrite(16,LOW),  digitalWrite(26,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(7,LOW),  digitalWrite(17,LOW),  digitalWrite(27,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(8,LOW),  digitalWrite(18,LOW),  digitalWrite(28,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(9,LOW),  digitalWrite(19,LOW),  digitalWrite(29,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
 // digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH), digitalWrite(31,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
 // delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(10,LOW),  digitalWrite(20,LOW),  digitalWrite(30,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(stepspeed);              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
 
}
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on March 25, 2018, 03:51:54 AM
It would be nice if Stefan could enable the
"code" BBCode tag.....

fr. Ce serait bien si Stefan pouvait activer le
"code" BBCode tag.....
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 25, 2018, 04:11:15 AM
BUT... there seems to be something special about the timing. Is this an error or is it deliberate?

The sketch basically switches 12 groups of 3 LEDs on and off in overlapping sequence. There is a timing interval between each group On or Off command.

Group 1 is turned ON, TWO timing intervals pass, Group 1 is turned OFF.
Group 2 is turned ON... THREE timing intervals pass, group 2 is turned OFF.
Group 3 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 3 is turned OFF.
Group 4 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 4 is turned OFF.
Group 5 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 5 is turned OFF.
Group 6 is turned ON... THREE intervals pass, Group 6 is turned OFF.
and so on until...
Group 12 is turned ON... TWO intervals pass, Group 12 is turned OFF.

So Groups 1 and 12 are only on for TWO timing intervals, the other 10 groups are on for THREE timing intervals.

Is this deliberate? Did I miscount?

fr.
MAIS ... il semble y avoir quelque chose de spécial à propos du timing. Est-ce une erreur ou est-ce délibéré?
Le  croquis bascule 12 groupes de 3 LED allumés et éteints dans une séquence de chevauchement. Il y a un intervalle de temps entre chaque commande On ou Off du groupe.
Le groupe 1 est activé, DEUX intervalles de synchronisation passent, le groupe 1 est désactivé.
Le groupe 2 est activé ... TROIS intervalles de synchronisation passent, le groupe 2 est désactivé.
Le groupe 3 est activé ... TROIS intervalles passent, le groupe 3 est désactivé.
Le groupe 4 est allumé ... Trois intervalles passent, le groupe 4 est désactivé.
Le groupe 5 est activé ... TROIS intervalles passent, le groupe 5 est désactivé.
Le groupe 6 est allumé ... Trois intervalles passent, le groupe 6 est désactivé.
et ainsi de suite jusqu'à ...
Le groupe 12 est activé ... DEUX intervalles passent, le groupe 12 est désactivé.
Ainsi, les groupes 1 et 12 ne sont activés que pour DEUX intervalles de temps, les 10 autres groupes sont activés pour TROIS intervalles de temps.
Est-ce délibéré? Ai-je mal compté?

You didn't miscount. That is what I noticed as well and mentioned in my earlier post. I think it is just a "bug". Those last lines should have been inserted at the start, see my previous post #51.
PmgR

fr. Vous n'avez pas mal calculé. C'est ce que j'ai remarqué et mentionné dans mon poste précédent. Je pense que c'est juste un "bug". Ces dernières lignes auraient dû être insérées au début, voir mon poste # 51.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 25, 2018, 04:31:11 AM
Just a quick note about your changes TK.
The curled brackets are missing in the pins loop.
So it should read:

for (pin = 1; pin <= 31; pin ++)
   { pinMode(pin, OUTPUT); }
 
fr. Juste une petite note sur vos changements TK.
Les accolades manques dans la boucle des broches.
Donc, il devrait lire:

for (pin = 1; pin <= 31; pin ++)
   { pinMode(pin, OUTPUT); }
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on March 25, 2018, 05:32:28 AM
Ya, thanks, you are right the curly brackets should be used even if there is only a single statement in the for loop.

At any rate... here is the sketch modified for Luc's 30 slot stator, with the timing "bug-error-OUSecret" corrected so
that there is a smooth flow around the outputs. I think.

fr. Oui merci, vous avez raison, les accolades doivent être utilisées même s'il n'y a qu'une seule instruction dans la boucle for.
En tout cas ... voici l'esquisse modifiée pour le stator à 30 slots de Luc, avec le timing "bug-error-OUSecret" corrigé donc
qu'il y a un flux fluide autour des sorties. Je pense.


/************************************************
  Pierre's Original Sketch
 
 Modded by TK 24 Mar 2018
 
 altered for 30-slot stator (gotoluc)
 
 
 TKTest Version using pins 2-11,12-21,22-31
 
************************************************/
 
// int stepspeed = 0, rawspeed = 0;  // not used

void setup() {
 
  // initialize all needed digital pins as OUTPUT, plus a couple extras
  int pin = 1;
  for (pin = 1; pin <= 33; pin ++) {
    pinMode(pin, OUTPUT);
    }
   
  pinMode(A0, INPUT);  // speed potentiometer wiper pin
 
}

void loop() {
 
  // rawspeed = analogRead(0); // read speedpot on Analog Pin 0
  // stepspeed = map(rawspeed,0,1023,1,200);  //transforme rawspeed en une valeur de 0 à 200 (millisecondes)
  //
  // (better to read pot after each switch command for real-time speed control, as below)

  digitalWrite(11,LOW), digitalWrite(21,LOW), digitalWrite(31,LOW);      // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait for stepspeed value in milliseconds
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH),  digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(23,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(2,LOW),  digitalWrite(12,LOW),  digitalWrite(22,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH),  digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(3,LOW),  digitalWrite(13,LOW),  digitalWrite(23,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH),  digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(4,LOW),  digitalWrite(14,LOW),  digitalWrite(24,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH),  digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(5,LOW),  digitalWrite(15,LOW),  digitalWrite(25,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH),  digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(6,LOW),  digitalWrite(16,LOW),  digitalWrite(26,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH),  digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(7,LOW),  digitalWrite(17,LOW),  digitalWrite(27,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH),  digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(8,LOW),  digitalWrite(18,LOW),  digitalWrite(28,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(9,LOW),  digitalWrite(19,LOW),  digitalWrite(29,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH), digitalWrite(31,HIGH);   // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(10,LOW), digitalWrite(20,LOW),  digitalWrite(30,LOW);     // turn the LED off
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));              // wait
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH);    // turn the LED on
  delay(map(analogRead(0),0,1023,1,200));             // wait
 
}
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2018, 05:49:06 AM
That's very kind of you TK. Thanks for helping out :)

Luc

fr. C'est très gentil de votre part TK. Merci de votre aide.


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Mem on March 25, 2018, 09:11:06 AM
Hi everyone, does any one knows to what happened to Pierre's You Tube channel? Looks like it's shut down. 

Fr: Salut tout le monde, est-ce que quelqu'un sait ce qui est arrivé aux canal You Tube de Pierre? On dirait que c'est fermé.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 25, 2018, 09:37:15 AM
J'ai reçu un très mauvais message de Pierre :

c'est seulement pour faire tourner le champ magnétique vous n'obtiendrai pas beaucoup voltage avec cela il y a autre chose que je garde secret c'est comme un moteur qui n'as pas de piston il ne démarras pas c'est la même chose pour le dz générateur l'important n'est pas ce que l'on voit mais plutôt ce que l'on ne voit pas  j'ai vue trop de gens qui veulent prendre le mérite a ma place alors ma contribution va s'arrêter ici maintenant  il vous feras découvrir le reste par vous même et je peut vous dire que ce n'est pas gagné il m'as fallu près de 2 ans pour trouver la solution la rotation n'est qu'un aspect du dz c'est vraiment plus complique que cela au moins les gens vont pouvoir apprendre a faire tourner un champ magnétique mais ça va s'arrêter la ils n'obtiendront pas les résultat que j'ai eu ,il me reste encore des problème a régler mais je pense tout régler  ses problèmes avec le deuxième prototype qui est en fabrication j'en ai pour plusieurs mois il me faut tout recommencer du début nouveau circuit nouvelle bobine plus puissante et une toute nouvelle programmation qui s'annonce assez complique a séquencer alors je vous souhaite la meilleur des chance pour la suite et méfier vous de ceux qui tente de garder les information pour eu il veulent tout  les renseignement pour eux  et ne dévoile rien  au autre je me demande bien pourquoi humm, quand j'aurai fait une demande de brevet je pourrai vous montrez la suite du dz générateur version 2 mais pas avant merci .

I received a very bad message from Pierre:

it only rotates a magnetic field, you will not get much voltage with it as there's something else I kept secret. It's like an engine with no pistons, it won't start. It's the same thing for the dz generator, the important thing is not what we see but rather what you don't see. I have seen too many people who want to take credit in my place. So my contribution stops here. You'll have to discover the rest on your own. I can tell you it's not easy to achieve, it took me nearly 2 years to find the solution as rotation is only one aspect of the dz, it's really more complicated than that. At least people will be able to learn how to rotate a magnetic field but it will stop there, they won't get the result I have. I even still have issues to fix but I think I can solve everything with my second prototype that's presently being built and will take several months. It all need to be started from the beginning, new circuit, new more powerful coils and a new sequence program that looks to be complicated. So I wish you the best of luck with the continuation and beware of those who try to keep the information for themselves and don't reveal anything else. I wonder why, humm
When I've applied for a patent I can show you the rest of the version 2 dz generator but not before. Thank you.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: forest on March 25, 2018, 09:44:41 AM
Is this translation  automated or exact ?

Edit: No, it was a automated translation. I have now translated it to be exact and updated it above. Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 25, 2018, 10:22:54 AM

Just some evil words;
 Everytime I hear that type of background music on YouTube together with film showing some (suspect) free energy experiment  something  bogus is going on.  8) 8) 8)
If I had succeeded with an OU experiment and I wanted to show that on YouTube I would never ever add background music to that.  :'(

fr.
Juste quelques mots mauvais;
  Chaque fois que j'entends ce type de musique de fond sur YouTube avec un film montrant une expérience d'énergie libre (suspecte), il se passe quelque chose de faux.
Si j'avais réussi avec une expérience OU et que je voulais montrer cela sur YouTube, je n'y ajouterais jamais de musique de fond.

But I'm still going to experiment with this kind of unit more or less the Figuera Style so maybe I'm going to post some thing here in the future or in the parallel thread to this.

The best test result I got from this type of unit was 13% output power compared with the hundred percent input power.

Regards / Arne

fr.
Mais je vais encore expérimenter avec ce dispositif, plus ou moins le style Figuera alors peut-être que je vais poster quelque chose ici dans le futur ou dans le sujet parallèle à cela.
Le meilleur résultat de test que j'ai obtenu avec ce type d'unité était une puissance de sortie de 13% par rapport à la puissance d'entrée de cent pour cent.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: forest on March 25, 2018, 10:54:00 AM
seaad

Well it could be real, I believe it's real. IMHO it's better if Pierre would patent it (less evil I would say),  then somebody  who just replicated his discovery recently (yeah they are lurking here).
fr.
seaad
Eh bien, ça pourrait être réel, je crois que c'est réel. À mon avis, il vaut mieux que Pierre brevete (moins de mal je dirais), que quelqu'un reproduit sa découverte récemment (oui, ils se cachent ici).
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 25, 2018, 11:01:50 AM
Thanks  forest
 Hope is the last thing that abandons man!
Keep on trying.  ;) ;)

Thanks luc and others

B Regards Arne

fr.
Merci forêt
  L'espoir est la dernière chose qui abandonne l'homme!
Continuer à essayer.
Merci Luc et les autres
B Cordialement Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Cherryman on March 25, 2018, 11:51:47 AM
Hi, my two cents on the arduino code.

Using the delay function is not always a good option because the Arduino actually stops everything while in "delay".

You might want to use the millis() command and or a timer library.

fr.
Salut, mes deux cents sur le code arduino.
L'utilisation de la fonction de délai n'est pas toujours une bonne option, car l'Arduino arrête réellement tout en "retard".
Vous pouvez utiliser la commande millis () et / ou une bibliothèque de minuterie.




Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: forest on March 25, 2018, 12:10:53 PM
I just did a simple search and look how we are walking in circle around the topic being closer and closer to the solution each year.
Just one example here:

http://overunity.com/6774/tesla-patent-382282-and-all-related-to-his-transformersconverters/msg160918/#msg160918 (http://overunity.com/6774/tesla-patent-382282-and-all-related-to-his-transformersconverters/msg160918/#msg160918)

The big problem is that no scientific labs are interested in investigating such concepts which can dump the profits of corporations and governments .

fr.
J'ai juste fait une recherche simple et regarde comment nous marchons en cercle autour du sujet étant de plus en plus proche de la solution chaque année.
Juste un exemple ici:
http://overunity.com/6774/tesla-patent-382282-and-all-related-to-his-transformersconverters/msg160918/#msg160918 (http://overunity.com/6774/tesla-patent-382282-and-all-related-to-his-transformersconverters/msg160918/#msg160918)
Le gros problème est qu'aucun laboratoire scientifique n'est intéressé à enquêter sur de tels concepts qui peuvent vider les bénéfices des entreprises et des gouvernements.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 25, 2018, 12:18:55 PM
I notice that with L298n it needs 3 outputs (pin) for 1 coil.
1.right (forward)
2.stop
3.left (back)

It's too much for the MEGA 2560.

It can use two more MEGA 2560 and control the other in the program.

or group coils 3 together then we will need 36 pins.
3 coils switched together at once.

fr.
Je remarque qu'avec L298n il faut 3 sorties (broche) pour 1 bobine.
1. droit (avant)
2.stop
3.left (arrière)
C'est trop pour le MEGA 2560. 
Il peut utiliser deux autres MEGA 2560 pour contrôler l'autre programme ou groupe bobines 3 ensemble alors nous aurons besoin de 36 broches.
3 bobines commutées ensemble à la fois.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on March 25, 2018, 01:30:43 PM
Hi
The code of Pierre's doesn't look quite the same with what he had described. The poles are consist of 6 coils each and poles are moving around. Sketch shows only two coils per pole that move sequentially. What i would expect is something like:
1 on,
2 on 
3 on
4 on
5 on
6 on
1 off
7 on
2 off
8 on
3 off
9 on
4 off
10 on
...etc
And that is only for one of the six magnetic poles.

 If we could estimate the rotations per second of Pierre's drill, then this could reveal his actual current frequency. Looks like way less than 60Hz. What do you think guys?

fr.
Le code de Pierre ne ressemble pas du tout à ce qu'il a décrit. Les pôles sont constitués de 6 bobine chacune et les pôles se déplacent. Croquis montre seulement deux bobines par pôle qui se déplacent séquentiellement. Ce que je m'attendrais à quelque chose comme:
1 on,
2 on 
3 on
4 on
5 on
6 on
1 off
7 on
2 off
8 on
3 off
9 on
4 off
10 on
...etc
Et ce n'est que pour l'un des six pôles magnétiques.
Si nous pouvions estimer les rotations par seconde de l'exercice de Pierre, cela pourrait révéler sa fréquence actuelle. On dirait bien moins que 60Hz. Que pensez-vous les gars?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Cherryman on March 25, 2018, 02:23:32 PM
I tried to made the Arduino code a little more efficient. And easier to modify if there will be changes in the future.
I took out the delay() function as it stops your arduino.

Note: I'm no programmer , so feel free to correct, add or to dismiss this all together.

It compiles on my Arduino Mega, but i'm not sure if it will do what you guys want.

fr. J'ai essayé de rendre le code Arduino un peu plus efficace. Et plus facile à modifier s'il y aura des changements dans le futur.
J'ai retiré la fonction delay () car elle arrête votre Arduino.  Note: Je ne suis pas un programmeur, alors n'hésitez pas à corriger, ajouter ou rejeter tout cela ensemble.
Il compile sur mon Arduino Mega, mais je ne suis pas sûr que ça fera ce que vous voulez.


/************************************************
  Pierre's Original Sketch

 
  Modded by CM 25 Mar 2018 

  Modded by TK 24 Mar 2018

  altered for 30-slot stator (gotoluc)

  TKTest Version using pins 2-11,12-21,22-31



************************************************/

unsigned long timeStart = 0;
unsigned long currentTime = 0;
int waitTime = 0;
bool coilState = HIGH;
int coilSequence[] = { 11, 3, 2, 4, 3, 5, 4, 6, 5, 7, 6, 8, 7, 9, 8, 10, 9, 11, 10, 2 };   // set the firing order
int  x = 0;

void setup()                                                             // initialize all needed digital pins as OUTPUT, plus a couple extras                               
{
  int pin = 1;
  for (pin = 1; pin <= 33; pin ++)
  {
    pinMode(pin, OUTPUT);
  }
  pinMode(A0, INPUT);                                              // speed potentiometer wiper pin
}




void loop()
{
  for (int x = 0; x < 20;);                                         // loop for going true the coilSequence array
  {
    readAnalog ();                                                     // reads the pot for wait value
    currentTime = millis();                                         // set current time in milli seconds
    if (currentTime - timeStart > waitTime)                 // checks if wait time has passed
    {
      coilState = ! coilState ;                                      // switch state
      coilSet ();                                         
      timeStart = currentTime ;                                  // reset start time
      x++;                                                                // go to the next array number
    }
  }
}


void readAnalog ()
{
  waitTime = map(analogRead(0), 0, 1023, 1, 200);   // reads pot and maps it to a range of 1 to 200 milli seconds
}


void coilSet ()
{
  digitalWrite(coilSequence[x], coilState), digitalWrite((coilSequence[x] + 10), coilState), digitalWrite((coilSequence[x] + 20), coilState);                // turn the LED on or off and uses the array as defined in coilSequence
}



EDIT:  I corrected a little mistake i made.
fr. EDIT: J'ai corrigé une petite erreur que j'ai faite.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 02:52:59 PM
I notice that with L298n it needs 3 outputs (pin) for 1 coil.
1.right (forward)
2.stop
3.left (back)

It's too much for the MEGA 2560.

It can use two more MEGA 2560 and control the other in the program.

or group coils 3 together then we will need 36 pins.
3 coils switched together at once.

fr.
Je remarque qu'avec L298n il faut 3 sorties (broche) pour 1 bobine.
1. droit (avant)
2.stop
3.left (arrière)
C'est trop pour le MEGA 2560. 
Il peut utiliser deux autres MEGA 2560 pour contrôler l'autre programme ou groupe bobines 3 ensemble alors nous aurons besoin de 36 broches.
3 bobines commutées ensemble à la fois.

Hi r2fpl

For those that want to implement the half bridge ladder scheme that Pierre uses, tie together OUT 1 and OUT 2 and tie together In1 and In2.

Repeat for other side of L298N.

This now gives you two independent half bridges, with each Enable input turning off both transistors.

So only 2 arduino outputs are required for each half bridge.

Regards

L192
fr. Salut r2fpl
Pour ceux qui veulent mettre en œuvre le schéma d'échelle de demi-pont que Pierre utilise, reliez OUT 1 et OUT 2 et reliez In1 et In2.
Répétez pour l'autre côté de L298N. Cela vous donne maintenant deux demi-ponts indépendants, chaque entrée Enable désactivant les deux transistors.
Donc, seulement 2 sorties Arduino sont requises pour chaque demi-pont.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 03:18:07 PM
L191, please have a closer look at the picture you're referring. I'm quite sure it's a 30 slots.  The welds and shape looks exactly like my 30 slots stator and the rotor looks the same as well.
However, I would agree with you that the larger 5 kW or more may have 36 slots.

Regards
Luc

français
L191, regardez de plus près la photo dont vous parlez. Je suis tout à fait sûr que c'est un 30 fentes. Les soudures et la forme ressemble exactement à mon stator à 30 fentes et le rotor a la même apparence.
Cependant, je suis d'accord avec vous que les 5 kW ou plus peuvent avoir 36 fentes.
Cordialement
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

Well the burnt out  6KW 3 phase generator I was given, has a 30 slot stator, although I was told it was 36 slot, so I guess its a gamble as to whether you get a 30 or 36 slot machine.
So I will proceed like yourself with 30 slots .

36 slot induction motors may be easier to find but then you have to find a rotor to fit.
I could CNC cut M400 sheet and make a rotor, though it just pushes the cost up, as the sheets are expensive.

Regards

L192

fr. Bonjour Gotoluc,
Eh bien, le générateur 6KW triphasé qui m'a été donné a un stator de 30 fente, bien qu'on m'ait dit qu'il était à 36 fente, donc je suppose que c'est un pari de savoir si vous obtenez un stator de 30 ou 36 fente. Je vais donc procéder comme vous avec votre 30 fente. Un moteurs à induction de 36 fente peuvent être plus faciles à trouver, mais alors vous devez trouver un rotor pour s'adapter. Je pourrais couper en CNC des feuilles de M400 et faire un rotor, mais sa pousse le coût de plus, les feuilles sont chères.
Cordialement
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 03:37:05 PM
Attached is a photo of a screw connector shield for the 2560, for those not aware of the board.
This provides more convenient output connection changes when experimenting.

L192

fr. Ci-joint est une photo d'un bouclier de connecteur à vis pour le 2560, pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas cette carte.
Cela fournit des changements de connexion de sortie plus pratiques lors de l'expérimentation.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 25, 2018, 04:48:14 PM
Hi r2fpl

For those that want to implement the half bridge ladder scheme that Pierre uses, tie together OUT 1 and OUT 2 and tie together In1 and In2.

Repeat for other side of L298N.

This now gives you two independent half bridges, with each Enable input turning off both transistors.

So only 2 arduino outputs are required for each half bridge.

Regards

L192

fr.
Salut r2fpl
Pour ceux qui veulent mettre en œuvre le schéma d'échelle de demi-pont que Pierre utilise, reliez OUT 1 et OUT 2 et reliez In1 et In2.
Répétez pour l'autre côté de L298N. Cela vous donne maintenant deux demi-ponts indépendants, chaque entrée Enable désactivant les deux transistors.
Donc, seulement 2 sorties Arduino sont requises pour chaque demi-pont.
Cordialement

2 x 36 or 2 x 30 still to much.

I think don't  join OUT1 and OUT2 together because must reverse polarity after 5 steps (for 36) ; right ?

fr. 2 x 36 ou 2 x 30 encore trop.
Je pense ne pas joindre ensemble OUT1 et OUT2, car il faut inverser la polarité après 5 étapes (pour 36); correct?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2018, 05:07:44 PM
Well, that's unfortunate to loose Pierre's trust. I knew something was up but I didn't want to alarm the group. I thought once we had this new moderated topic and Pierre could see we are serious researchers and truly want to work together with him to understand the effect and then further improve it, in time would come to understand that Erfinder's information was all a purposeful sabotage to stop the research.
I'm quite sure Pierre has lost trust in me (mentioning Patent) with all the misinformation Erfinder posted about me in the first topic which none of it was translated and if Pierre used google translate that would causes even more confusion as it does a really bad job from English to French.
What Erfinder did It's an old tactic call divide and conquer.  You must all remember how Arron did the same thing to get Eric Dollard to himself.
Anyways, what can we do other then move forward with what we have. Maybe if Pierre sees we don't give up and work together he will understand that all that was misinformation purposely done to divide us so we give up and go our separate ways.
So, the question now is will you guys let that happen?  or will we stay and work together?

Please post your truthful replies as I'm sure Pierre is reading what's going on.

Kind regards

Luc

français
Eh bien, c'est dommage de perdre la confiance de Pierre. Je savais qu'il se passait quelque chose mais je ne voulais pas alarmer le groupe. Je pensais qu'une fois nous aurions ce nouveau sujet modéré sous notre contrôle et Pierre pourrait voir que nous sommes tous des chercheurs sérieux et que nous voulons vraiment travailler avec lui pour comprendre l'effet et ensuite l'améliorer ensemble et avec le temps Pierre viendrait à comprendre que l'information d'Erfinder était tout un sabotage intentionnel pour arrêter la recherche. Je suis tout à fait sûr que Pierre a perdu confiance en moi (mentionnant Brevet) avec toute la désinformation que Erfinder a posté de moi dans le premier sujet dont aucun n'a été traduit, et si Pierre a utilisé traduction google ça causerait encore plus de confusion comme ça fait un très mauvais travail de traduction de l'anglais aux français.
Ce que Erfinder a fait est une vieille tactique qui consiste à diviser pour régner. Vous devez tous vous rappeler comment Arron a fait la même chose pour se procurer de Eric Dollard pour lui-même.
Quoi qu'il en soit, que pouvons-nous faire d'autre alors aller de l'avant avec ce que nous avons. Peut-être que si Pierre voit que nous n'abandonnons pas et ne travaillons ensemble, Pierre viendrait à comprendre que tout ça était de la désinformation volontairement fait pour nous diviser, pour que nous abandonnons et nous nous séparons.
Alors, la question maintenant est: allons-nous laisser cela se produire? ou allons-nous rester et travailler ensemble?

Veuillez poster vos réponses véridiques car je suis sûr que Pierre lit ce qui se passe.

Sincères amitiés
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 25, 2018, 05:16:47 PM
Very sad it :'(

I will try. This is my stator.

fr. C'est très triste :'( . Je vais essayer. C'est mon stator.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 05:44:22 PM
2 x 36 or 2 x 30 still to much.

I think don't  join OUT1 and OUT2 together because must reverse polarity after 5 steps (for 36) ; right ?

fr. 2 x 36 ou 2 x 30 encore trop.
Je pense ne pas joindre ensemble OUT1 et OUT2, car il faut inverser la polarité après 5 étapes (pour 36); correct?


Hi r2fpl,
When you join Out1 and out 2 together you just parallel the top and parallel the bottom set of transistors.

The In1 and In2 paralleled then either turns on the top or bottom set of transistors depending on if Hi or Lo. The Enable input either allows the half bridge transistors to turn on or keeps both sets of transistors off.

Regards

L192

fr.Hi r2fpl,
Quand vous reliez out1 et out 2 ensemble, vous venez de mettre en parallèle le haut et le parallèle des transistors du bas.
Le In1 et In2 en parallèle puis tourne sur le jeu de transistors haut ou bas en fonction de si Hi ou Lo. L'entrée Enable permet aux transistors de demi-pont de s'allumer ou de désactiver les deux ensembles de transistors.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 05:55:30 PM
Well, that's unfortunate to loose Pierre's trust. I knew something was up but I didn't want to alarm the group. I thought once we had this new moderated topic and Pierre could see we are serious researchers and truly want to work together with him to understand the effect and then further improve it, in time would come to understand that Erfinder's information was all a purposeful sabotage to stop the research.
I'm quite sure Pierre has lost trust in me (mentioning Patent) with all the misinformation Erfinder posted about me in the first topic which none of it was translated and if Pierre used google translate that would causes even more confusion as it does a really bad job from English to French.
What Erfinder did It's an old tactic call divide and conquer.  You must all remember how Arron did the same thing to get Eric Dollard to himself.
Anyways, what can we do other then move forward with what we have. Maybe if Pierre sees we don't give up and work together he will understand that all that was misinformation purposely done to divide us so we give up and go our separate ways.
So, the question now is will you guys let that happen?  or will we stay and work together?

Please post your truthful replies as I'm sure Pierre is reading what's going on.

Kind regards

Luc

français
Eh bien, c'est dommage de perdre la confiance de Pierre. Je savais qu'il se passait quelque chose mais je ne voulais pas alarmer le groupe. Je pensais qu'une fois nous aurions ce nouveau sujet modéré sous notre contrôle et Pierre pourrait voir que nous sommes tous des chercheurs sérieux et que nous voulons vraiment travailler avec lui pour comprendre l'effet et ensuite l'améliorer ensemble et avec le temps Pierre viendrait à comprendre que l'information d'Erfinder était tout un sabotage intentionnel pour arrêter la recherche. Je suis tout à fait sûr que Pierre a perdu confiance en moi (mentionnant Brevet) avec toute la désinformation que Erfinder a posté de moi dans le premier sujet dont aucun n'a été traduit, et si Pierre a utilisé traduction google ça causerait encore plus de confusion comme ça fait un très mauvais travail de traduction de l'anglais aux français.
Ce que Erfinder a fait est une vieille tactique qui consiste à diviser pour régner. Vous devez tous vous rappeler comment Arron a fait la même chose pour se procurer de Eric Dollard pour lui-même.
Quoi qu'il en soit, que pouvons-nous faire d'autre alors aller de l'avant avec ce que nous avons. Peut-être que si Pierre voit que nous n'abandonnons pas et ne travaillons ensemble, Pierre viendrait à comprendre que tout ça était de la désinformation volontairement fait pour nous diviser, pour que nous abandonnons et nous nous séparons.
Alors, la question maintenant est: allons-nous laisser cela se produire? ou allons-nous rester et travailler ensemble?

Veuillez poster vos réponses véridiques car je suis sûr que Pierre lit ce qui se passe.

Sincères amitiés

Hi Gotoluc,

I don't understand this at all.  If you public domain something like Pierre has done, even if it was the whole answer, someone can then patent and steal the idea.

Even reading through the previous posts, who was indicating that they would attempt to steal the idea and patent it?  I cant see where this was either said or implied.. perhaps I missed it?

All I saw were some people that thought the OU was faked?

Regards

L192

fr.Hi Gotoluc,
Je ne comprends pas ça du tout. Si quelque chose est partagé dans le domaine public comme Pierre a fait, même si c'était toute la réponse, quelqu'un peut le breveter et voler votre idée?
Même en lisant les messages précédents, qui a indiqué qu'ils tenteraient de voler l'idée et de la breveter? Je ne peux pas voir où cela a été dit ou implicite .. peut-être que je l'ai manqué?
Tout ce que j'ai vu, ce sont des gens qui pensaient que la surunité était fausse?
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2018, 06:00:34 PM
The below is my translation of Pierre's message cheors post #65

it only rotates a magnetic field, you will not get much voltage with it as there's something else I kept secret. It's like an engine with no pistons, it won't start. It's the same thing for the dz generator, the important thing is not what we see but rather what you don't see. I have seen too many people who want to take credit in my place. So my contribution stops here. You'll have to discover the rest on your own. I can tell you it's not easy to achieve, it took me nearly 2 years to find the solution as rotation is only one aspect of the dz, it's really more complicated than that. At least people will be able to learn how to rotate a magnetic field but it will stop there, they won't get the result I have. I even still have issues to fix but I think I can solve everything with my second prototype that's presently being built and will take several months. It all need to be started from the beginning, new circuit, new more powerful coils and a new sequence program that looks to be complicated. So I wish you the best of luck with the continuation and beware of those who try to keep the information for themselves and don't reveal anything else. I wonder why, humm
When I've applied for a patent I can show you the rest of the version 2 dz generator but not before. Thank you.

Fr.
c'est seulement pour faire tourner le champ magnétique vous n'obtiendrai pas beaucoup voltage avec cela il y a autre chose que je garde secret c'est comme un moteur qui n'as pas de piston il ne démarras pas c'est la même chose pour le dz générateur l'important n'est pas ce que l'on voit mais plutôt ce que l'on ne voit pas  j'ai vue trop de gens qui veulent prendre le mérite a ma place alors ma contribution va s'arrêter ici maintenant  il vous feras découvrir le reste par vous même et je peut vous dire que ce n'est pas gagné il m'as fallu près de 2 ans pour trouver la solution la rotation n'est qu'un aspect du dz c'est vraiment plus complique que cela au moins les gens vont pouvoir apprendre a faire tourner un champ magnétique mais ça va s'arrêter la ils n'obtiendront pas les résultat que j'ai eu ,il me reste encore des problème a régler mais je pense tout régler  ses problèmes avec le deuxième prototype qui est en fabrication j'en ai pour plusieurs mois il me faut tout recommencer du début nouveau circuit nouvelle bobine plus puissante et une toute nouvelle programmation qui s'annonce assez complique a séquencer alors je vous souhaite la meilleur des chance pour la suite et méfier vous de ceux qui tente de garder les information pour eu il veulent tout  les renseignement pour eux  et ne dévoile rien  au autre je me demande bien pourquoi humm, quand j'aurai fait une demande de brevet je pourrai vous montrez la suite du dz générateur version 2 mais pas avant merci.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 06:00:42 PM
Very sad it :(

I will try. This is my stator.

Hi r2fpl,

What is the diameter of the rotor that was in that stator?

Thanks

Regards

L192

fr.
Salut r2fpl,
Quel est le diamètre du rotor qui était dans ce stator?
Merci
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 06:04:15 PM
This sentence..

"I have seen too many people who want to take credit in my place."

What does this mean exactly, if Pierre quoted an example perhaps we could understand?

L192

fr. Cette phrase..
"j'ai vue trop de gens qui veulent prendre le mérite a ma place"
Qu'est-ce que cela signifie exactement, si Pierre citait un exemple que nous pourrions peut-être comprendre?

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2018, 07:46:29 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

I don't understand this at all.  If you public domain something like Pierre has done, even if it was the whole answer, someone can then patent and steal the idea.

Even reading through the previous posts, who was indicating that they would attempt to steal the idea and patent it?  I cant see where this was either said or implied.. perhaps I missed it?

All I saw were some people that thought the OU was faked?

Regards

L192

fr.Hi Gotoluc,
Je ne comprends pas ça du tout. Si quelque chose est partagé dans le domaine public comme Pierre a fait, même si c'était toute la réponse, quelqu'un peut le breveter et voler votre idée?
Même en lisant les messages précédents, qui a indiqué qu'ils tenteraient de voler l'idée et de la breveter? Je ne peux pas voir où cela a été dit ou implicite .. peut-être que je l'ai manqué?
Tout ce que j'ai vu, ce sont des gens qui pensaient que la surunité était fausse?
Cordialement

Sorry L192 for the delay in reply. I first had to translate all the previous posts that had pilled up since yesterday. Bigger job then most would want to do!

Yes, it can be confusing I know. The problem started in the previous topic. Erfinder posted false information about me he read and believed from another forum.
So, it looks like Pierre has translated some of that information and probably thinks I'm trying to steal his device and patent it, which is completely false.
As you can clearly see, I'm trying to replicate study and share with as many serious researchers as possible and why I'm putting all the efforst in translation to include everyone.

Regards
Luc

fr.
Désolé L192 pour le retard dans la réponse. J'ai d'abord dû traduire tous les messages précédents qui s'étaient accumulés depuis hier. Plus grand travail que la plupart voudraient faire!
Oui, ça peut être déroutant, je sais. Le problème a commencé dans le sujet précédent. Erfinder posté de fausses informations sur moi, qu'il a lu et cru d'un autre forum.
Donc, on dirait que Pierre a traduit certaines de ces informations et pense probablement que j'essaie de voler son appareil et de le breveter, ce qui est complètement faux.
Comme vous pouvez le voir clairement, j'essaie de reproduire l'étude et de partager avec autant de chercheurs sérieux que possible et pourquoi je mets tous les efforts en traduction pour inclure tout le monde.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on March 25, 2018, 08:06:43 PM
Well, that's unfortunate to loose Pierre's trust. I knew something was up but I didn't want to alarm the group. I thought once we had this new moderated topic and Pierre could see we are serious researchers and truly want to work together with him to understand the effect and then further improve it, in time would come to understand that Erfinder's information was all a purposeful sabotage to stop the research.
I'm quite sure Pierre has lost trust in me (mentioning Patent) with all the misinformation Erfinder posted about me in the first topic which none of it was translated and if Pierre used google translate that would causes even more confusion as it does a really bad job from English to French.
What Erfinder did It's an old tactic call divide and conquer.  You must all remember how Arron did the same thing to get Eric Dollard to himself.
Anyways, what can we do other then move forward with what we have. Maybe if Pierre sees we don't give up and work together he will understand that all that was misinformation purposely done to divide us so we give up and go our separate ways.
So, the question now is will you guys let that happen?  or will we stay and work together?

Please post your truthful replies as I'm sure Pierre is reading what's going on.

Kind regards

Luc

français
Eh bien, c'est dommage de perdre la confiance de Pierre. Je savais qu'il se passait quelque chose mais je ne voulais pas alarmer le groupe. Je pensais qu'une fois nous aurions ce nouveau sujet modéré sous notre contrôle et Pierre pourrait voir que nous sommes tous des chercheurs sérieux et que nous voulons vraiment travailler avec lui pour comprendre l'effet et ensuite l'améliorer ensemble et avec le temps Pierre viendrait à comprendre que l'information d'Erfinder était tout un sabotage intentionnel pour arrêter la recherche. Je suis tout à fait sûr que Pierre a perdu confiance en moi (mentionnant Brevet) avec toute la désinformation que Erfinder a posté de moi dans le premier sujet dont aucun n'a été traduit, et si Pierre a utilisé traduction google ça causerait encore plus de confusion comme ça fait un très mauvais travail de traduction de l'anglais aux français.
Ce que Erfinder a fait est une vieille tactique qui consiste à diviser pour régner. Vous devez tous vous rappeler comment Arron a fait la même chose pour se procurer de Eric Dollard pour lui-même.
Quoi qu'il en soit, que pouvons-nous faire d'autre alors aller de l'avant avec ce que nous avons. Peut-être que si Pierre voit que nous n'abandonnons pas et ne travaillons ensemble, Pierre viendrait à comprendre que tout ça était de la désinformation volontairement fait pour nous diviser, pour que nous abandonnons et nous nous séparons.
Alors, la question maintenant est: allons-nous laisser cela se produire? ou allons-nous rester et travailler ensemble?

Veuillez poster vos réponses véridiques car je suis sûr que Pierre lit ce qui se passe.

Sincères amitiés

I would say Mr. Cotnoir may have had a little visit ?  I hope he is aware that in this field of research, if a person doesn't release / disclose "Fully" a device that has true merit, that the safety of him,  especially his family by Gov. sources is in jeopardy.
Mr. Cotnoir, if you are reading this it would behoove you to "Fully" come out as the "Genie", so-to-speak has been released.
Also, nobody will be able to patent this device, only perhaps dissected parts and no money will be made on this as a whole,  after all look at all that are on the market now ?  58+ devices currently sitting in the basement of "Los-Alamo's labs."  : ]
There is a problem that goes with these secrets in a 3d reality and "Greed" is the biggest one, along with weaponization.
.
Mr. Cotnoir ?  Are you seeing lights in sky at night where you live ...there's your answer.

- All the best

 "what can we do other then move forward with what we have." ?

MOVE forward... : ]

fr. Je dirais que M. Cotnoir a peut-être eu une petite visite? J'espère qu'il est conscient que dans ce domaine de recherche, si une personne ne libère pas / divulguer "entièrement" un appareil qui a du mérite, que la sécurité de lui, en particulier sa famille par les sources gouvernementales est en danger.
Monsieur Cotnoir, si vous êtes en train de lire ceci, il vous appartiendrait de "complètement" apparaître comme le "Génie", pour ainsi dire, a été publié.
En outre, personne ne sera en mesure de breveter cet appareil, seulement peut-être des pièces disséquées et aucun argent ne sera fait sur cet ensemble, après tout, regardez tout ce qui est sur le marché maintenant? Plus de 58 appareils actuellement installés dans le sous-sol des «laboratoires de Los-Alamo». :]
Il y a un problème qui va avec ces secrets dans une 3D vraiment et "Greed" est le plus grand, avec l'armement.
.
Monsieur Cotnoir? Est-ce que vous voyez des lumières dans le ciel la nuit où vous vivez ... il y a votre réponse.

- Bonne chance

  "Que pouvons-nous faire d'autre alors aller de l'avant avec ce que nous avons." ?

Avance... : ]


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 25, 2018, 08:14:13 PM
Hi r2fpl,

What is the diameter of the rotor that was in that stator?

Thanks

Regards

L192

fr.
Salut r2fpl,
Quel est le diamètre du rotor qui était dans ce stator?
Merci
Cordialement

Hi L192,

Stator: 173mm x 100mm
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2018, 08:17:37 PM
To everyone,
A new forum member Andy71 has been trying to post for some days but unfortunately new members need a moderators approval for their first posts and I only have moderator privileges in this topic and why I started it.  Andy71 has sent me the private message below. I don't think he knows of this new topic so I sent him the link to come here.

fr. À tous,
Un nouveau membre du forum Andy71 essaye de poster depuis quelques jours mais malheureusement les nouveaux membres ont besoin d'une approbation des modérateurs pour leurs premiers posts et je n'ai que des privilèges de modérateur sur ce sujet et pourquoi je l'ai commencé. Andy71 m'a envoyé le message privé ci-dessous. Je ne pense pas qu'il connaisse ce nouveau sujet, alors je lui ai envoyé le lien pour venir ici.

Hello
I am still not logged in by the moderator.
But I have read all posts.
I also suspected something was wrong with the information provided by Pierre Cotnoir.
I've been working on similar projects for a long time.
But please, tell everyone in the forum.
We will not give up !!!
We continue to develop.
There is a way to be independent.
Best regards Andy

fr.
Bonjour
Je ne suis toujours pas connecté par le modérateur.
Mais j'ai lu tous les messages.
Je soupçonnais également que quelque chose n'allait pas avec les informations fournies par Pierre Cotnoir.
Je travaille sur des projets similaires depuis longtemps.
Mais s'il vous plaît, dites à tous dans le forum.
Nous n'abandonnerons pas !!!
Nous continuons à développer.
Il y a un moyen d'être indépendant.
Cordialement Andy
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: e2matrix on March 25, 2018, 08:17:47 PM
Luc,  sorry to hear about this development with Pierre.   I knew there was some sort of fiasco going on regarding the situation with a patent but didn't recall the details surrounding it so I read through the links you posted to EF regarding that.  It became obvious from statements by other members I know and trust that you did nothing wrong and were not trying to patent or take credit for anyone else's work.   I know you to be one of the most altruistic people on these forums and know of the work you did helping others in South Africa.   I am sure you would not try to take this idea to patent it as your own.  It's obvious all being discussed here is in the public domain anyway.   Unfortunately if Pierre keeps an important part 'secret' and someone else figures that out then they could potentially try to patent it since it is not in the public domain.

   It seems so often this type of situation comes up when an inventor realizes they have something big.   Unfortunately I don't think even getting a patent is a good idea unless you are very rich and can afford to defend it.   The way patent law works you will lose if you don't defend it or successfully defend it and that can be very expensive when dealing with big money corporate lawyers who want to steal your idea.   

   I also think it's a bad idea to 'keep a secret' about something this potentially big as that just invites the probability that someone will pay you a visit and you then end up missing, scared off, having your lab ransacked or worse yet end up on a list like these:

http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/553/ (http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/553/)
http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/554/ (http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/554/)
http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/555/ (http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/555/)

Putting the info out there on the Internet everywhere possible seems to be the safest and best plan for all. 

fr. Luc, désolé d'entendre parler de ce développement avec Pierre. Je savais qu'il y avait une sorte de fiasco en ce qui concerne la situation avec un brevet, mais je ne me rappelais pas les détails qui l'entouraient, alors j'ai lu les liens que vous avez envoyés à EF à ce sujet. Cela est devenu évident à partir des déclarations d'autres membres que je connais et j'ai confiance que vous n'avez rien fait de mal et que vous n'essayiez pas de faire breveter ou de revendiquer le travail de quelqu'un d'autre. Je sais que vous êtes l'une des personnes les plus altruistes sur ces forums et connaissez le travail que vous avez fait pour aider les autres en Afrique du Sud. Je suis sûr que vous n'essaieriez pas de prendre cette idée pour la breveter comme la vôtre. Il est évident que tout ce qui est discuté ici est dans le domaine public de toute façon. Malheureusement, si Pierre garde une partie importante 'secrète' et que quelqu'un d'autre s'en aperçoit, alors ils pourraient potentiellement essayer de la breveter car elle n'est pas dans le domaine public.

   Il semble si souvent que ce genre de situation se présente lorsqu'un inventeur se rend compte qu'il a quelque chose de gros. Malheureusement, je ne pense pas que même obtenir un brevet est une bonne idée à moins que vous ne soyez très riche et que vous puissiez vous permettre de le défendre. La façon dont le droit des brevets fonctionne vous perdra si vous ne le défendez pas ou ne le défendez pas avec succès et cela peut être très coûteux quand vous traitez avec des avocats d'affaires qui veulent voler votre idée.

   Je pense aussi que c'est une mauvaise idée de "garder un secret" sur quelque chose d'aussi grand que cela, mais qui invite à la probabilité que quelqu'un te rende visite et que tu finisses par disparaître, effrayé, avoir ton laboratoire saccagé ou pire encore finir sur une liste comme celles-ci:

http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/553/ (http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/553/)
http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/554/ (http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/554/)
http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/555/ (http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/555/)

Mettre l'information sur Internet partout où cela est possible semble être le plan le plus sûr et le meilleur pour tous.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 25, 2018, 09:01:42 PM
" Summary from Pierre:

If you only rotates a magnetic field, you will not get much voltage (power?) because something is missing!  Rotation is only one aspect of the DZ, it's really more complicated than that.

People will be able to learn how to rotate a magnetic field but it will stop there, they won't get the result I have.  I keep the secret. I just wanted to show on YouTube what I and nobody else could do.

You'll have to discover the rest on your own. I can tell you it's not easy to achieve. "

Let's search for the "pistons" !   DZ,  D??  Z??, What?
B. R. Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 25, 2018, 09:25:52 PM
Dernier message privé de Pierre ce matin :

Je n'ai jamais dit au monde de répliquer le DZ générateur.
Je voulais juste démontrer sur YouTube ce que moi et personne d'autre avait réussi a fabriquer.
Ce sont les gens qui on voulu savoir  comment le DZ générateur fonctionnait et tous ce sont emballés quand j'ai parlé des principes de base et se sont mit à visionner la vidéo image par image pour connaître mes secrets et vous avez une grosse partie de ces secrets.
Par la suite j'ai mentionné à Luc que le premier prototype n'était pas encore au point et il a voulu quand même le construire. Que voulez vous que j’y fasse.
Même si je lui ai dit que je commençait un deuxième prototype il a tenu à faire une  réplique de mon premier qui ne fonctionnait pas a 100%. Libre à lui et les autres.
Tout ce que j'ai dit et mentionné pour le DZ est véridique, même le programme que j'ai mit sur YouTube.
Vous allez pouvoir faire tourner un champ magnétique. Il ne vous reste qu'à trouver la suite si cela vous chante. Je n'ai jamais forcé personne à copier le dz générateur.
De toute façon tout ce que j'ai lu sur ce forum cette semaine en disait long sur certaine personne qui voulait devancer les autres pour faire breveter mon invention. A partir de cela pensez vous sérieusement que je suis intéressé à tout dévoiler au monde pour me faire faire un gros doigt d’honneur par un autre personne qui serait partie faire une demande de brevet à ma place.
 Si cela commence a être trop lourd a gérer je vais fermer mon compte sur YouTube et je vais plutôt me concentrer sur mon appareil et plus personne n'aura des nouvelles de moi .

I never told the world to replicate the generator DZ.
I just wanted to show on YouTube what I and nobody else could do.
These are the people who wanted to know how the DZ generator worked and all these look excited when I talked about the basics and started to watch the video frame by frame to know my secrets and you have a big chunk of these secrets.
Later, I mentioned to Luc that the first prototype was not yet developed and he still wanted to build it. What do you want me to do.
Even though I told him I was starting a second prototype he wanted to make a replica of my first one that did not work 100%. Free to him and the others.
All I said and mentioned for the DZ is true, even the program I put on YouTube.
You will be able to rotate a magnetic field. You just have to find the next one if you like it. I never forced anyone to copy the generator DZ.
Anyway all I read on this forum this week said a lot about someone who wanted to get ahead of others to patent my invention. From that, do you think seriously that I am interested in revealing everything to the world to make me a big finger of honor by another person who would have left to apply for a patent in my place. If it starts to be too heavy to manage I will close my account on YouTube and I will focus on my device and no one will hear from me.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 09:51:29 PM
Hi L192,

Stator: 173mm x 100mm

Most of the Chinese generator2 pole  rotors are 94.5mm or 119mm.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 25, 2018, 10:11:11 PM
Dernier message privé de Pierre ce matin :

Je n'ai jamais dit au monde de répliquer le DZ générateur.
Je voulais juste démontrer sur YouTube ce que moi et personne d'autre avait réussi a fabriquer.
Ce sont les gens qui on voulu savoir  comment le DZ générateur fonctionnait et tous ce sont emballés quand j'ai parlé des principes de base et se sont mit à visionner la vidéo image par image pour connaître mes secrets et vous avez une grosse partie de ces secrets.
Par la suite j'ai mentionné à Luc que le premier prototype n'était pas encore au point et il a voulu quand même le construire. Que voulez vous que j’y fasse.
Même si je lui ai dit que je commençait un deuxième prototype il a tenu à faire une  réplique de mon premier qui ne fonctionnait pas a 100%. Libre à lui et les autres.
Tout ce que j'ai dit et mentionné pour le DZ est véridique, même le programme que j'ai mit sur YouTube.
Vous allez pouvoir faire tourner un champ magnétique. Il ne vous reste qu'à trouver la suite si cela vous chante. Je n'ai jamais forcé personne à copier le dz générateur.
De toute façon tout ce que j'ai lu sur ce forum cette semaine en disait long sur certaine personne qui voulait devancer les autres pour faire breveter mon invention. A partir de cela pensez vous sérieusement que je suis intéressé à tout dévoiler au monde pour me faire faire un gros doigt d’honneur par un autre personne qui serait partie faire une demande de brevet à ma place.
 Si cela commence a être trop lourd a gérer je vais fermer mon compte sur YouTube et je vais plutôt me concentrer sur mon appareil et plus personne n'aura des nouvelles de moi .



"I never told the world to replicate the generator DZ.
I just wanted to show on YouTube what I and nobody else could do.
These are the people who wanted to know how the DZ generator worked and all these look excited when I talked about the basics and started to watch the video frame by frame to know my secrets and you have a big chunk of these secrets.
Later, I mentioned to Luc that the first prototype was not yet developed and he still wanted to build it. What do you want me to do.
Even though I told him I was starting a second prototype he wanted to make a replica of my first one that did not work 100%. Free to him and the others.
All I said and mentioned for the DZ is true, even the program I put on YouTube.
You will be able to rotate a magnetic field. You just have to find the next one if you like it. I never forced anyone to copy the generator DZ.
Anyway all I read on this forum this week said a lot about someone who wanted to get ahead of others to patent my invention. From that, do you think seriously that I am interested in revealing everything to the world to make me a big finger of honor by another person who would have left to apply for a patent in my place. If it starts to be too heavy to manage I will close my account on YouTube and I will focus on my device and no one will hear from me.

Hi Pierre,

Below are parts of two posts you made indirectly in the previous thread..
I have highlighted two sentences in Bold text.

You talk about working together and needing every ones help.. I thought that's what we were trying to provide by replicating your device?

Regards

L192



"Hello Luc

I received your message but I'm not always at my computer.
The reply delay is not because I don't want to answer, it's because I don't have much time in the evening since I work between 60 to 65 hrs a week.
I see your messages at work but don' have enough time to answer you and everyone at the same time.
I may have more time to answer on the weekends.
As for my phone number, I want keep it confidential as well as my email address. If I start giving my personal details out you can imagine the disturbance will never end. I hope you understand?
For the past week I wanted to make a new video but was unable since too much of my time was used to answer people.
But don't worry about it, I eventually answer and will answer new questions after I have the new video up which should help to understand the principle.
Anyways, I also have things I don't fully understand yet, so I'm going to need everyones help.
You can contact me on the overunity site. My user name is pedro1

Thank you

Pierre"

"About the sequence of the arduino, when one coil is powered on the next coil will also be powered on before the previous is turned off (overlap) otherwise you will break the magnetic field. The goal is not to turn off the magnetic stream, you only want to keep it moving.  Switching example: 1 on, 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 2 off etc.
The flyback diodes are connected to each coil but there's probably simple ways to do it?
I wanted to regulate the input power with another arduino but I was too eager to test my device so I directly connected it without input control. Maybe I could of reduced the input power but how much I do not know.
I don't know if you noticed the super capacitors can handle up to 48 volts. I only used 26volts but because of the problems I encountered.  I prefer to wait to test higher voltage on the next prototype.
Don't hesitate to take the initiative if you can improve the dz generator. It's still in developing stage and there's probably many things I haven't thought of that can be improved.
If we work together we will eventually find the ideal solution."
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 25, 2018, 10:47:11 PM

... Quoi qu'il en soit, que pouvons-nous faire d'autre alors aller de l'avant avec ce que nous avons. Peut-être que si Pierre voit que nous n'abandonnons pas et ne travaillons ensemble, Pierre viendrait à comprendre que tout ça était de la désinformation volontairement fait pour nous diviser, pour que nous abandonnons et nous nous séparons.
Alors, la question maintenant est: allons-nous laisser cela se produire? ou allons-nous rester et travailler ensemble?

Veuillez poster vos réponses véridiques car je suis sûr que Pierre lit ce qui se passe.

Sincères amitiés

En lisant les deux derniers messages de Pierre, j'ai l'impression qu'ils ne sont pas de lui.

Post #104 de konehead sur l'ancien fil : "Ce dont il a besoin, c'est d'être sain et sauf, de continuer son travail et de le garder ouvert".
Son message d'aujourd'hui : "A partir de cela pensez-vous sérieusement que je suis intéressé à tout dévoiler au monde pour me faire faire un gros doigt d’honneur par une autre personne qui serait partie faire une demande de brevet à ma place."

Vous voyez, il y a quelque chose qui ne va pas.

Bref, je ne suis pas étonné de ce qui se passe, j'y pensais depuis le début. Je me disais que si son dispositif était réel, ça ne durerait pas longtemps. Effectivement, cela n'a pas duré longtemps. Néanmoins, nous pouvons travailler sur les bases que nous possédons à présent. Evidemment, il nous faut poursuivre notre travail, et le divulguer, qu'il n'en déplaise à d'autre qui liront ceci.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2018, 11:54:54 PM
@ e2matrix and all,
It's sad how some people twist things around to adjust it to the way they see and operate in the world.

I use to also believe that sharing something in public domain makes it non patentable and why back in June 26th 2008 when I happen to combine a High Voltage Coil spark (ionization path) which allowed a capacitors low voltage Current to discharged through the spark via a Blocking Diode and saw how water violently reacted to it,  I immediately publicly shared it as "WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE" http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.WrgaE9YpDM1 (http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.VbqZBEb_rIU)
thinking this could be something big that can help the world and wanted to give it away and protect it by public domain so the whole world can freely use it.

Then Arron's topic started one week later which he used the same method but his own circuit version (mine was mechanical) and why I was credited "Based on Luc's (Gotoluc) method" in his video demo :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw)

Later on I had 2 men contact me saying they made a professional plug n play version of the water spark device and said they researched and recognized me as the first to share this method in public domain (which still holds true today).  I was very happy these private individuals produced and professional marketed a device anyone can easily install. I wished them all the best.
Later on they informed me that if this spark device succeeds that Public Domain would not protect it from large corporation to patent it, which if happened, would force them out of business and loose all they had already invested.
They said a paten is the best protection and promised me it won't cost me anything and I can set all the conditions. I told them the number one priority was to protect it for free public use and the documents would have to be made to reflect this as priority. Plus, they have to pay for everything and that I don't want any (zero) financial profits from their business.
They did all the legal work which took months. The way it was set up is I held 10% share of the patent document and each one of them held 45% so that none could try to do anything without consent of all. I had a lawyer look over the documents before I signed (which they paid for) and the lawyer advised me not to sign because I shouldn't give everything away and get nothing. I asked the Lawyer, can they ever do anything with this Patent without me involved. The lawyer said no, they can't. I said if you're sure of that then that is the only protection that matters to me as this is not mine but belongs to the public!... so I signed it. In short my involvement in this Patent was only for the good of the public and totally selfless.
Later on I'm contacted by one of the two owners while I was volunteering in a South Africa mission to feed, cloth and give school supplies to the poor to informing me they are in disagreement and if him and I combine our Patent shares we can dissolve the patent to protect it from being sold. I agreed and it got done after some months. Days after the patent was dissolved somehow Arron hears about the patent for the fist time and has an ego trip claiming that this is his circuit and is the only inventor.
He took the liberty (back then) to publicly declare me as a fraud, thief, you name it and still to this day keeps misinforming the public about me.
He got involved and insisted the Patent be re-applied for with only his name as inventor and that my name should of never been on the Patent since as far as he is concerned I had nothing to do with the circuit.
However, the Patent attorney did not see it quite the way Arron did, since he had done his research. After many disturbing emails with Aaron threatening me to remove my name on the new patent application, something inside told me don't give him what he wants, keep your name on the list of the now 4 inventors even if it's just 10% recognition.
Still Arron kept insisting I be removed completely so the patent attorney got fed up and quit.  Still have the emails to prove that.
Soon after Arron agreed my name can stay and apparently a new patent was created.
I have no idea if it was issued since Arron tried to collect money from me to pay for it. Right, like I would send him money!... obviously I didn't send anything, so I don't know anymore the that and don't care to know. It's all in Aaron's trusted control. So best to ask him if you want more information.
To this day Arron has never stopped posting that I stole this from him and patented it, when I actually dissolved the original patent. So I have nothing to do with it. He owns it, he may of paid for it. But I guess since my name was maybe kept on the inventor list that really screws with his head somehow!

So my selfless intention for to help protect public domain and at the same time help a few research community guys who were ready to take the risk on something that may be good for the world, I'm the one that gets to be named a fraud, thief and kicked in the ass for trying to help.
As a great Guru I once knew would say "WHAT TO DO"

Kind regards

Luc

fr. C'est triste comment certaines personnes tournent les choses pour l'adapter à la façon dont ils voient et fonctionnent dans le monde.
J'avais l'habitude de croire aussi que partager quelque chose dans le domaine public le rendait non brevetable et pourquoi au 26 juin 2008 quand j'ai combiné une étincelle à haute tension (circuit d'ionisation) qui permettait le courant d'un condensateur a basse tension de traverser l'étincelle à travers une Diode Blocage et vu comment l'eau a réagi violemment à cet effet, je l'ai immédiatement publiquement partagé cet effet "L'EAU COMME DÉCOUVERTE DE CARBURANT POUR TOUS PARTAGER" http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone (http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone) -to-share / #. WrgaE9YpDM1
penser que cela pourrait être quelque chose de grand qui peut aider le monde et voulait le donner et le protéger par domaine public afin que le monde entier puisse l'utiliser librement.
Une semaine plus tard (à un autre forum) le sujet d'Arron a commencé. Il a utilisé la même méthode mais sa propre version de circuit (la mienne était mécanique) et pourquoi il m'a crédité "Basé sur la méthode de Luc (Gotoluc)" dans sa démo vidéo: https://www.youtube (https://www.youtube). com / watch? v = vOhNtRhJ5Rw
Plus tard, deux hommes m'ont contacté pour me dire qu'ils avaient fait une version professionnelle de l'étincelle à eau et m'ont dit qu'ils m'avaient reconnu comme étant le premier à partager cette méthode dans le domaine public (ce qui reste vrai aujourd'hui). J'ai été très heureux que ces particuliers produisent et commercialisent un appareil que tout le monde peut facilement installer. Je leur ai souhaité tout le meilleur.
Plus tard, ils m'ont informé que si ce dispositif étincelle réussissait, le domaine public ne le protégerait pas contre les grandes entreprise breveter. Et si sa se produisait, les forcerait à cesser leurs activités et perdrait tout ce qu'ils avaient déjà investi.
Ils mon dit qu'un brevet est la meilleure protection et m'ont promis que cela ne me coûterait rien et que je peux fixer toutes les conditions. Je leur ai dit que la priorité numéro un était de la protéger l'usage public et que les documents devraient être faits pour refléter cela comme une priorité. De plus, ils doivent payer pour tout et je ne veux pas de profits financiers (zéro) de leur entreprise.
Ils ont fait tout le travail juridique qui a pris des mois. De la façon dont il a été mis en place, j'ai détenu 10% du document de brevet et chacun d'entre eux détenait 45% de sorte que personne ne pouvait essayer de faire quoi que ce soit sans le consentement de tous. J'ai demandé à un avocat de vérifier les documents avant de signer (ce qu'ils ont payé) et l'avocat m'a conseillé de ne pas signer parce que je ne devrais pas tout donner et ne rien recevoir. J'ai demandé à l'avocat, peuvent-ils faire quelque chose avec ce brevet sans impliqué. L'avocat a dit non, ils ne peuvent pas. J'ai dit que si vous en étiez sûr, alors c'est la seule protection qui compte pour moi car ce n'est pas à moi mais au public! ... alors je l'ai signé. En bref, mon implication dans ce brevet était seulement pour le bien du public et totalement désintéressé de profiter.
Plus tard, j'ai été contacté par l'un des deux propriétaires alors que je faisais du bénévolat dans une mission en Afrique du Sud pour nourrir les pauvres et leur donner des fournitures scolaires pour m'informer qu'ils sont en désaccord et que si nous combinons nos pare 45% + 10%du brevets, nous pouvons dissoudre le brevet pour l'empêcher d'être vendu. J'ai accepté et cela s'est fait après quelques mois. Quelques jours après la dissolution du brevet, Arron entend parler du brevet pour la première fois et fait un d'égo trip en prétendant que c'est son circuit et qu'il est le seul inventeur.
Il a pris la liberté (à l'époque) de me déclarer publiquement comme un fraude, un voleur et encore à ce jour continue de désinformer le public à propos de moi.
Il s'est impliqué et a insisté pour que le brevet soit à nouveau demandé avec seulement son nom comme inventeur et que mon nom ne sois pas sur le brevet car en ce qui le concerne, je n'ai rien à voir avec le circuit.
Cependant, l'avocat de brevets ne l'a pas vu tout à fait comme ca, il avais fait ses recherches. Après de nombreux courriels avec Aaron me menaçant d'enlever mon nom sur la nouvelle demande de brevet, quelque chose à l'intérieur m'a dit de ne pas lui donner ce qu'il voulait, gardez votre nom sur la liste des 4 inventeurs même si c'est seulement 10% de reconnaissance.
Toujours Arron a insisté pour que je sois complètement enlevé. Afin l'avocat de brevet ait eu marre et ait quitté. J'ai les e-mails pour le prouver.
Peu de temps après, Arron a accepté que mon nom puisse rester et apparemment un nouveau brevet a été créé.
Je ne sais pas si ça a été publié et Arron a essayé de me faire payer de l'argent. Comme si je lui enverrais de l'argent! ... évidemment, je n'ai rien envoyé, alors je ne sais plus rien de tout ça et je m'en fous de savoir. Tout est dans le contrôle de confiance d'Aaron. Alors mieux vaut lui demander si vous voulez plus d'informations.
À ce jour, Arron n'a jamais cessé d'afficher que je lui ai volé cela et l'ai breveté, quand j'ai effectivement dissous le brevet original. Donc je n'ai rien à voir avec ça. Il le possède, il peut l'avoir et a payé. Mais je suppose que mon nom a peut-être été gardé sur la liste des inventeurs qui jou vraiment avec sa tête!
Donc, mon intention d'aider à protéger le domaine public et en même temps aider quelques chercheurs de la communauté qui étaient prêts à prendre le risque sur quelque chose qui pourrait être bon pour le monde, je suis celui qui obtient d'être nommé un fraude , voleur et coups de pied dans le cul pour avoir essayé d'aider.
Comme un grand gourou que j'ai connu il y a quelque temps dirait "QUE FAIRE"
Sincères amitiés
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 26, 2018, 02:06:44 AM
I spent the whole day with my two finger typing translating and so on. So I'm taking a break for tonight and locking the topic. I may re-open it tomorrow

fr.
J'ai passé toute la journée avec mes deux doigts sur clavier en train de traduire et ainsi de suite. Donc, je fais une pause pour ce soir et verrouiller le sujet.  Peut-être que je l'ouvrirai demain
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 26, 2018, 05:57:52 PM
Last night after locking the topic I received the below message from Pierre.
Fr. La nuit dernière, après avoir verrouillé le sujet, j'ai reçu le message ci-dessous de Pierre.

hello Luc, I want to let you know that what I wrote was not aim at you. I was addressing the whole forum.  Yes, I slightly lost confidence of the discussion group. I know there are some honest people in the group but there are also some rotten apples and they are the ones I'm wary the most of. I'm sure there is one or more people ill-intentioned on the forum.  Yes i wanted to give my invention to the world but the the only thing I do not want is for someone to takeover my idea to make a personal profit.  How would you feel if you invent something revolutionary and another person takes credit for it in you place. I would not be very happy. I don't give a dam about money this can bring, I'm not rich but I'm very happy, so money doesn't necessarily give happiness and I really don't do this for money.  All I wanted to start with was to demonstrate my invention that took me months to build and I managed to get it to run. The test that you saw in my first video that some thinks it's a fake was actually my first real test of the dz generator. I was very happy with the test results and decided to share it online.  Then everything got crazy. I didn't want everyone to try to replicate what I achieved, even you wanted to replicate despite my mentioning that my prototype was only a draft and did not work at its best. I had a lot of improvement to bring to the project even with my second prototype. I'm not even sure of all the needed changes yet, so why all the eagerness to make a replication which in my opinion is not yet operating to full capacity? When I first saw it working I was wondering what to do with it, I just want to give my invention to the whole world but how do I prevent a person from taking over of my idea to profit from it?  at this moment a patent sounds like the best option, even if I don't have the means to spend so much money for a piece of paper. Until I have the money for a patent the rest of my secrets will stay with me, unless you prove otherwise that if it's made public nobody can apply for a patent in my place? In the time of Tesla everything was so different, today it's so complicated. So for now I've removed all my youtube videos. You've mention that you're fingers are tired of translating, for me it never stopped ever since I put my video on youtube. So I'll take a break of a few months to free my mind and carefully think this all over. I want to focus on my second prototype instead of spending hours reading and responding to the good and not so good comments. Looking at what you've built so far as replication it's really a beautiful job and nothing is preventing you to continue, you're on a good path. The only concern I have are the mosfet's you use, I'm not sure if they will withstand the the input amperage? just a single coil takes a lot of amperage, check before how much one coil draws compared to the 2 amps the mosfet's can handle. That's it for tonight. My week starts very early in the morning and I'm going to rest a little bit.  Pierre Cotnoir                    

Fr.
bonjour luc, je tiens a vous mentionner  que je ne vous ai pas viser vous pour ce que j'ai écrit,  je visait l'ensemble du forum, oui j'ai perdue légèrement la confiance du groupe de discussion. je sait qu'il y a des gens honnête dans le groupe mais il y a aussi des pommes pourrie. ce sont de eu que je me méfie le plus.  je suis sure qu'il y a une ou des personnes mal intentionné sur le forum.  oui je voulait donner mon invention au monde mais la seul chose que je veut pas c'est que quelqu'un s'empare de mon idée pour en faire son profit personnel. comment vous vous sentiriez si vous inventer quelque chose de révolutionnaire et qu'un autre prend le mérite a votre place. et bien moi je ne serait vraiment pas heureux,  je me fou de l'argent que cela peut rapporté, je ne suis pas riche mais je suis très heureux, ainsi l'argent ne donne pas le bonheur nécessairement et je ne fait vraiment pas cela pour l'argent. tout ce que voulait au début c'était de montrer l'invention que j'avait travailler depuis des mois et que j'ai réussi a faire fonctionner, le test que vous avez vue dans ma première vidéo que certaine personne pense a du fake était en réalité est mon premier vrai test du dz générateur. j'était très heureux de mon test et j'ai décider de le mettre en ligne et la tout a débouler pour moi. je ne voulait pas que tout le monde essaye de répliquer ce que j'ai fait ,même vous vous avez voulue répliqué ce que j'avait fait malgré que je vous avait mentionner que mon prototype n'était qu'une ébauche et ne fonctionnait pas a son maximum encore j'avait  beaucoup d'amélioration a apporter a ce projet même avec mon deuxième prototype je ne suis pas sure de tout réglé encore alors pourquoi l'empressement de faire une réplique qui selon moi n'est pas encore a sa pleine capacité? bref  des le début je me demandait quoi faire avec cela je voulait seulement donner mon invention au monde entier  mais comment empêcher qu'une personne de s'empare de mon idée a sont propre profit ? la est la question un brevet me semble pour le moment la meilleur option même si je n'ai pas vraiment les moyen de dépenser autant d'argent pour un bout de papier tant que je n'aurai pas l'argent nécessaire pour un brevet le reste de mes secret resteront avec moi, a moins que vous me prouviez du contraire que si ses rendue public personne ne peut faire une demande de brevet a ma place, dans le temps de tesla tout était tellement différent, aujourd'hui c'est tellement rendue compliquer, de la j'ai tout retirer mes vidéo sur youtube. si vous avez mentionner que vous avez les doigts fatiguer de traduire et bien moi cela dure depuis que j'ai mis ma vidéo sur youtube. alors je vais prendre une pause de quelque mois pour me vidé la tête et de réfléchir a tout cela. je veut me concentrer sur mon deuxième prototype au lieu de passer des heures a lire et a répondre au bon et moins bon commentaire, pour de ce qui est de ce que vous avez commencer, c'est vraiment une beau travail rien ne vous empêche de continuer vous êtes sure la bonne voit. la seul réticence que j'ai se sont les mosfet que vous avez utiliser, je ne suis pas sure si il vont résister a l'ampérage que vous injecterez? je crois que une seul bobine prend assez d'ampérage, vérifier avant combien tire une bobine versus le 2 amp que peuvent fournir le choix de vos mosfet. la dessus bonne nuit ma semaine commence très top le matin et je vais aller me reposer un peut.  pierre cotnoir
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 26, 2018, 06:29:48 PM
I'm opening the topic for the rest of the day (New York time) I ask that you please restrict your posts to only important or useful information.

Fr. J'ouvre le sujet pour le reste de la journée (heure de New York) Je vous demande de restreindre vos messages uniquement à des informations importantes ou utiles.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 26, 2018, 06:43:06 PM
For those using the L298N:

As we have changed to Pierre's ladder switch scheme, using each half of the L298N H bridge, as a half bridge will increase current capacity to 3.5A

If we need more current then two power transistors, one NPN and one PNP, can have their bases connected to the output of the half bridge (via a suitable resistor to set the base current) and that will extend the drive current range to whatever we like, depending on the transistors rating.

It still will be a cheap solution.

Note: I modified this post changing MOSFET's to bipolar transistors.
MOSFET's would have a rail limitation in this configuration.

Regards

L192

Fr. Pour ceux qui utilisent le L298N:
Comme nous avons changé le schéma de l'interrupteur d'échelle de Pierre, en utilisant chaque moitié du pont L298N H, comme un demi-pont va augmenter la capacité actuelle à 3,5 A
Si nous avons besoin de plus de courant alors deux MOSFET de puissance, un canal N et un canal P peuvent avoir leurs portes connectées à la sortie du demi-pont (via une résistance de 10 ohms sur chaque porte) et cela étendra la gamme actuelle à ce que nous voulons. en fonction de la note du MOSFET.
Ce sera toujours une solution bon marché.
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: centraflow on March 26, 2018, 07:57:42 PM
I'm opening the topic for the rest of the day (New York time) I ask that you please restrict your posts to only important or useful information.

Fr. J'ouvre le sujet pour le reste de la journée (heure de New York) Je vous demande de restreindre vos messages uniquement à des informations importantes ou utiles.

Hi Luc

A message for Pierre.
In Canada it costs 300$ to make an application, you do not need to pay any more for around 1 year, that is if you do the patent yourself and not in cure agent fees. Once filled you have a proven prior art, you really don't have to do any more, no other person can patent it, only the prior art holder, even if you let it die, it is registered.
This does not stop anyone else from making it, or selling it, that is what open source is at the end of the day. If you want to stop people from making it and selling it, you will have to obtain a patent, the cost is huge. Then there are the companies who will use very expensive law firms to break that patent and patent for themselves, very expensive to fight.
All these paths, been there, done that, and I'm not joking. Las month I informed the Canadian patents office of the prior art which joi scientific is trying to patent, along with documented evidence and dates and a Canadian application by myself. All this just took me time and really I do not need to do anymore, I hope, or the patents office will have a problem, they know there is a prior art which precedes the dates, it should at least be cited.
Prior art is very powerful for stopping someone from patenting your work, but not to stop anyone from using it or selling it, that's for the rich of this world I'm afraid. Publishing is an alternative, that's what I do now (research gate).
Just some information, take it or leave it, no problem.
Regards
Mike 8)

Fr.
Bonjour Luc, Un message pour Pierre.
Au Canada, il en coûte $300. pour faire une demande, vous n'avez pas besoin de payer plus pour environ 1 an, c'est-à-dire si vous faites vous-même le brevet et pas les frais d'agent de guérison. Une fois rempli vous avez un art antérieur prouvé, vous n'avez vraiment plus rien à faire, personne d'autre ne peut le breveter, seul le détenteur de l'art antérieur, même si vous le laissez mourir, c'est enregistré.
Cela n'empêche personne d'en faire ou de le vendre, c'est ce que l'open source est en fin de compte. Si vous voulez empêcher les gens de le faire et de le vendre, vous devrez obtenir un brevet, le coût est énorme. Ensuite, il ya les entreprises qui vont utiliser des cabinets d'avocats très coûteux pour briser ce brevet et breveter pour eux-mêmes, très coûteux à se battre.
Tous ces chemins ont été faits, et je ne plaisante pas. Au cours du mois, j'ai informé le Bureau des brevets du Canada de l'état de la technique que Joi Scientific essayait de breveter, ainsi que des preuves et des dates documentées et une demande canadienne par moi-même. Tout cela m'a juste pris du temps et je n'ai vraiment plus besoin de le faire, j'espère, ou le bureau des brevets aura un problème, ils savent qu'il y a un art antérieur qui précède les dates, il devrait au moins être cité.
L'art antérieur est très puissant pour empêcher quelqu'un de breveter votre travail, mais pas pour empêcher quiconque de l'utiliser ou de le vendre, c'est pour les riches de ce monde que j'ai peur. La publication est une alternative, c'est ce que je fais maintenant (porte de la recherche).
Juste quelques informations, prenez-le ou laissez-le, pas de problème.
Cordialement
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 26, 2018, 08:14:26 PM
With regards to other things shifting/rotating, that we don't see...

I you look in the back stator region, (see pmgs simulation result without rotor in place), apart from the pole flux there is also the counter flux due to the rotor load.

The counter flux will be opposed for each pair of adjacent poles, shown in red, assuming both adjacent poles are present during the same period.

Depending on timing, the counter flux could actually aid the adjacent poles flux, if this presented a lower reluctance path.

Maybe pmgr can model the counter flux, so we can see exactly  what happens here?

Regards

L192

Fr. En ce qui concerne d'autres choses décalant / tournant, que nous ne voyons pas ...
Je regarde dans la région du stator arrière, (voir le résultat de la simulation de pmgr sans rotor en place), en dehors du flux de pôle, il y a aussi le contre-flux dû à la charge du rotor.
Le contre-flux sera opposé pour chaque paire de pôles adjacents, représentée en rouge, en supposant que les deux pôles adjacents sont présents pendant la même période.
En fonction du temps, le flux de comptage pourrait réellement aider le flux de pôles adjacents, si cela présentait un chemin de réluctance inférieur.
Pmgr peut peut-être modéliser le contre-flux, afin que nous puissions voir exactement ce qui se passe ici?
Cordialement
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on March 26, 2018, 08:57:49 PM
Last night after locking the topic I received the below message from Pierre.
Fr. La nuit dernière, après avoir verrouillé le sujet, j'ai reçu le message ci-dessous de Pierre.

hello Luc, I want to let you know that what I wrote was not aim at you. I was addressing the whole forum.  Yes, I slightly lost confidence of the discussion group. I know there are some honest people in the group but there are also some rotten apples and they are the ones I'm wary the most of. I'm sure there is one or more people ill-intentioned on the forum.  Yes i wanted to give my invention to the world but the the only thing I do not want is for someone to takeover my idea to make a personal profit.  How would you feel if you invent something revolutionary and another person takes credit for it in you place. I would not be very happy. I don't give a dam about money this can bring, I'm not rich but I'm very happy, so money doesn't necessarily give happiness and I really don't do this for money.  All I wanted to start with was to demonstrate my invention that took me months to build and I managed to get it to run. The test that you saw in my first video that some thinks it's a fake was actually my first real test of the dz generator. I was very happy with the test results and decided to share it online.  Then everything got crazy. I didn't want everyone to try to replicate what I achieved, even you wanted to replicate despite my mentioning that my prototype was only a draft and did not work at its best. I had a lot of improvement to bring to the project even with my second prototype. I'm not even sure of all the needed changes yet, so why all the eagerness to make a replication which in my opinion is not yet operating to full capacity? When I first saw it working I was wondering what to do with it, I just want to give my invention to the whole world but how do I prevent a person from taking over of my idea to profit from it?  at this moment a patent sounds like the best option, even if I don't have the means to spend so much money for a piece of paper. Until I have the money for a patent the rest of my secrets will stay with me, unless you prove otherwise that if it's made public nobody can apply for a patent in my place? In the time of Tesla everything was so different, today it's so complicated. So for now I've removed all my youtube videos. You've mention that you're fingers are tired of translating, for me it never stopped ever since I put my video on youtube. So I'll take a break of a few months to free my mind and carefully think this all over. I want to focus on my second prototype instead of spending hours reading and responding to the good and not so good comments. Looking at what you've built so far as replication it's really a beautiful job and nothing is preventing you to continue, you're on a good path. The only concern I have are the mosfet's you use, I'm not sure if they will withstand the the input amperage? just a single coil takes a lot of amperage, check before how much one coil draws compared to the 2 amps the mosfet's can handle. That's it for tonight. My week starts very early in the morning and I'm going to rest a little bit.  Pierre Cotnoir                    

Fr.
bonjour luc, je tiens a vous mentionner  que je ne vous ai pas viser vous pour ce que j'ai écrit,  je visait l'ensemble du forum, oui j'ai perdue légèrement la confiance du groupe de discussion. je sait qu'il y a des gens honnête dans le groupe mais il y a aussi des pommes pourrie. ce sont de eu que je me méfie le plus.  je suis sure qu'il y a une ou des personnes mal intentionné sur le forum.  oui je voulait donner mon invention au monde mais la seul chose que je veut pas c'est que quelqu'un s'empare de mon idée pour en faire son profit personnel. comment vous vous sentiriez si vous inventer quelque chose de révolutionnaire et qu'un autre prend le mérite a votre place. et bien moi je ne serait vraiment pas heureux,  je me fou de l'argent que cela peut rapporté, je ne suis pas riche mais je suis très heureux, ainsi l'argent ne donne pas le bonheur nécessairement et je ne fait vraiment pas cela pour l'argent. tout ce que voulait au début c'était de montrer l'invention que j'avait travailler depuis des mois et que j'ai réussi a faire fonctionner, le test que vous avez vue dans ma première vidéo que certaine personne pense a du fake était en réalité est mon premier vrai test du dz générateur. j'était très heureux de mon test et j'ai décider de le mettre en ligne et la tout a débouler pour moi. je ne voulait pas que tout le monde essaye de répliquer ce que j'ai fait ,même vous vous avez voulue répliqué ce que j'avait fait malgré que je vous avait mentionner que mon prototype n'était qu'une ébauche et ne fonctionnait pas a son maximum encore j'avait  beaucoup d'amélioration a apporter a ce projet même avec mon deuxième prototype je ne suis pas sure de tout réglé encore alors pourquoi l'empressement de faire une réplique qui selon moi n'est pas encore a sa pleine capacité? bref  des le début je me demandait quoi faire avec cela je voulait seulement donner mon invention au monde entier  mais comment empêcher qu'une personne de s'empare de mon idée a sont propre profit ? la est la question un brevet me semble pour le moment la meilleur option même si je n'ai pas vraiment les moyen de dépenser autant d'argent pour un bout de papier tant que je n'aurai pas l'argent nécessaire pour un brevet le reste de mes secret resteront avec moi, a moins que vous me prouviez du contraire que si ses rendue public personne ne peut faire une demande de brevet a ma place, dans le temps de tesla tout était tellement différent, aujourd'hui c'est tellement rendue compliquer, de la j'ai tout retirer mes vidéo sur youtube. si vous avez mentionner que vous avez les doigts fatiguer de traduire et bien moi cela dure depuis que j'ai mis ma vidéo sur youtube. alors je vais prendre une pause de quelque mois pour me vidé la tête et de réfléchir a tout cela. je veut me concentrer sur mon deuxième prototype au lieu de passer des heures a lire et a répondre au bon et moins bon commentaire, pour de ce qui est de ce que vous avez commencer, c'est vraiment une beau travail rien ne vous empêche de continuer vous êtes sure la bonne voit. la seul réticence que j'ai se sont les mosfet que vous avez utiliser, je ne suis pas sure si il vont résister a l'ampérage que vous injecterez? je crois que une seul bobine prend assez d'ampérage, vérifier avant combien tire une bobine versus le 2 amp que peuvent fournir le choix de vos mosfet. la dessus bonne nuit ma semaine commence très top le matin et je vais aller me reposer un peut.  pierre cotnoir


"The only concern I have are the mosfet's you use, I'm not sure if they will withstand the the input amperage? just a single coil takes a lot of amperage, check before how much one coil draws compared to the 2 amps the mosfet's can handle."

I agree with Pierre's statement, as he and only he is aware of his device....
Perhaps "Logic-Fets" would be a solution as they can @5v handle some hefty current, it's just choosing the most efficient one and circuit build.

C'mon guys give Pierre a little assistance here : ]
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Andy71 on March 26, 2018, 09:10:32 PM
Hello
This with Pierre is a pity.
But I can understand him.
As I have already written I use the following circuit.
Here again the circuit diagram for 36 coils.
Best regards Andy

Fr. Bonjour
Ceci avec Pierre est dommage.
Mais je peux le comprendre.
Comme je l'ai déjà écrit, j'utilise le circuit suivant.
Ici encore le schéma de circuit pour 36 bobines.
Cordialement Andy
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 26, 2018, 09:32:17 PM
Here is a half bridge driver for N channel MOSFET's up to 60VDC rail.
It has shoot through prevention under voltage lockout.

If you leave both inputs low  both upper and lower MOSFET will be off.

PDIP package only so unless making a PCB you would have to solder on a DIL header.

$5

L192

Fr. Voici un driver demi-pont pour le MOSFET à canal N jusqu'à 60VDC.
Il a tiré à travers la prévention sous le verrouillage de tension.
Si vous laissez les deux entrées faibles, les MOSFET supérieur et inférieur seront désactivés.
Paquet PDIP seulement donc à moins de faire un PCB vous auriez à souder sur un en-tête DIL.
$5.

 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 26, 2018, 09:52:11 PM
SiLabs:
Si8230 Half bridge driver operation similar to the Linear 11602 but with higher voltage rating .
Later technology.

SOIC 16 package wide or narrow.

$2.85

Fr. SiLabs:
Si8230 Fonctionnement du driver demi-pont similaire au Linear 11602 mais avec une tension nominale plus élevée. Technologie postérieure
SOIC 16 paquet large ou étroit.  $2.85
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 26, 2018, 10:28:06 PM
http://www.electronics-lab.com/project/high-current-discrete-half-bridge-based-ir2104-ir2101/

IR2101 based for those that want a PCB overlay already designed.

60V 30A

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 26, 2018, 11:15:15 PM
Thanks L192 for all these additional options.
But can you help me out with my present build with the questions I PM you hours ago?

Thanks for your help

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 27, 2018, 12:13:52 AM
Hi Gotoluc,

Pretty late here so here is a quick and dirty markup.

5V regulator powers logic side of L298N

You can feed in 35V but the regulator would get very hot so I would use +12V.

The diodes for the transistors are in place on the board.

I have shown connections for Pierres ladder switch arrangement, so the switches are connected in parallel  for a half bridge with a 3.5A rating instead of 2A.

The enable lines switch off both transistors. When enabled the In1 In2 lines are tied together high or low TTL on this input will switch on either the upper or lower transistor pairs.

Regards

L192
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 27, 2018, 12:28:29 AM
Hi Gotoluc,

Pretty late here so here is a quick and dirty markup.

5V regulator powers logic side of L298N

You can feed in 35V but the regulator would get very hot so I would use +12V.

The diodes for the transistors are in place on the board.

I have shown connections for Pierres ladder switch arrangement, so the switches are connected in parallel  for a half bridge with a 3.5A rating instead of 2A.

The enable lines switch off both transistors. When enabled the In1 In2 lines are tied together high or low TTL on this input will switch on either the upper or lower transistor pairs.

Regards

L192

Thanks L192 for your help. No need to make the circuit any cleaner unless you wish to do so,
Is there a way to directly connect an external 5v power source for the boards logic (bypass voltage regulator) so I can use a higher input voltage then 12v?
Is it just a matter of pulling out the "5V Enable"  jumper seen in below picture?
I was planing on going up to the 20 volt rage as maybe a good amount of saturation could be needed.
Also, how many outputs from the Arduino 3560 will be needed to control 30 of L298N?

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 08:37:59 PM
Hi everyone,
I've been busy with my build but today I'm opening the topic as I have some questions.
I want to know if I leave the pin jumpers on each (A Enable & B Enable) of the L298N or do I remove them?
Also, has their been a post on how the four control wires of each L298N are grouped and then to which pin numbers the groups are connected on the 2560?
Thanks for your help
Luc

Fr. Salut à tous,
J'ai été occupé avec ma construction mais aujourd'hui j'ouvre le sujet car j'ai quelques questions.
Je veux savoir si je laisse les jumpers de broche sur chacun (A Enable & B Enable) du L298N ou est-ce que je les enlève?
Aussi, a-t-il été un message sur la façon dont les quatre fils de contrôle de chaque L298N sont groupés et ensuite sur quels numéros de broche les groupes sont connectés sur le 2560?
Merci de votre aide
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
Hi everyone,

I've been busy with my build but today I'm opening the topic as I have some questions.

I want to know if I leave the pin jumpers on each enable of the L298N or do I remove them?
 Also, has their been a post on how the four control wires of each L298N are grouped and then to which pin numbers the groups are connected on the 2560?
 
 Thanks for your help

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 09:07:55 PM
Thanks listener191 for the diagram.
So it's confirmed that the A Enable and B Enable Jumpers are remover.
I also want to use a higher voltage then 12vdc so I'm also going to remove the 5V voltage regulator (5v Enable) Jumper and power all the 30 L298N boards with an external power supply connected to all boards to the 5v connector.
Now all that is left to know is  how the four control wires to each L298N x 30 are grouped and then to which pin numbers the groups are connected on the 2560 to work with the program TK has modified for my 30 slot stator?
This question can be answered by yourself if you wish, TK or slider2732

Thanks
Luc

Fr.  Merci listener191 pour le diagramme.
Il est donc confirmé que les jumpers A Enable et B Enable sont supprimés.
Je veux également utiliser une tension plus élevée que 12Vcc, donc je vais également retirer le (5v Enable) jumper du régulateur de tension 5V et alimenter toutes les 30 cartes L298N avec une alimentation externe connectée a touts les cartes au connecteur 5v.
Maintenant tout ce qui reste à savoir est comment les quatre fils de contrôle à chaque L298N x 30 sont groupés et ensuite à quels numéros de broche les groupes sont connectés sur le 2560 pour travailler avec le programme que TK a modifié pour mon stator à 30 slots?
Cette question peut être répondue par vous-même si vous le souhaitez, TK ou slider2732
Merci
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on March 29, 2018, 09:08:39 PM
.....
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 29, 2018, 09:14:43 PM
My version, 36 slots
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 09:17:36 PM


Hi Gotoluc,

Each L298N has two full H bridges. We parallel the H bridge to make a half bridge.You only need 15 boards and you have 30 half bridges.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on March 29, 2018, 09:24:25 PM
Hi guys,

When comparing Pierre's shared program with 1->2 coils activation against real operation and his explanation in videos there is inconsistency about how many coils need to be activated at once and in what order. You can see my post in open thread about what is seen in recordings - http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/msg519057/#msg519057

Also the most important part is not in coils switching as Pierre mentioned. My bet is - he managed to make BEMF/interwinding induction recovery back to bank of supercapacitors of most energy spent and is not telling that. Also the Carlos Benitez patent No.17811 have strong relationship in what is causing extra energy there in my opinion.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 09:32:44 PM

Hi Gotoluc,

Each L298N has two full H bridges. We parallel the H bridge to make a half bridge.You only need 18 boards and you have 30 half bridges.

Regards

L192

What
... I don't understand anymore!!!... I posted this video on page 3 of this topic showing 30 boards: https://youtu.be/3-HHaPDOWAM (https://youtu.be/3-HHaPDOWAM)  and no one said anything. Now you're saying I need 18?

Can someone PLEASE make a Full diagram like I have asked for in the video.
I can build stuff but I need everyones help with the Aduino programming to work with the electronic circuit connections
I've just wasted 2 days soldering 30 boards.
I don't understand how 18 boards can control 30 coils?
Luc

Fr.
Quoi ... Je ne comprends plus !!! ... J'ai posté cette vidéo à la page 3 de ce sujet montrant 30 L298N: https://youtu.be/3-HHaPDOWAM  et personne n'a rien dit. Maintenant vous dites que j'ai besoin de 18 ans?
Quelqu'un peut-il S'IL VOUS PLAÎT faire un diagramme complet comme je l'ai demandé dans la vidéo.
Je peux construire des choses mais j'ai besoin que tout le monde aide avec la programmation Aduino pour travailler avec les connexions de circuits électroniques
Je viens de gaspiller 2 jours à souder 30 planches.
Je ne comprends pas comment 18 planches peuvent contrôler 30 bobines?
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 09:54:26 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

The schematic I sent shows how they are connected.

It true they don't have opto isolation.
I was looking at the specification of the opto isolated board version. However the diodes are either side of any one coil and clamped by the high capacitance of the rail capacitors, so there should be no voltage rise over rail.

I don't know what local transients there may be on the board, that will have to be checked.

I am only planning to run these boards at low voltage, then use the BTS7960 boards to run at 20-35V.

The enable jumpers  have to come off otherwise the outputs are always active.


Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 10:04:32 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Perhaps this makes it clearer.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on March 29, 2018, 10:09:30 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Perhaps this makes it clearer.

Regards

L192

If you check Pierre's explanation video screenshot in https://i.imgur.com/NkNCryA.png (https://i.imgur.com/NkNCryA.png) - the solution would be full bridge on each coil including BEMF recovery circuit.

30 coils would mean 30 full bridge circuits.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 29, 2018, 10:12:35 PM
liestener,luc

attention les sorties out1 et out2 sont en court-circuit sur le schéma  Reply #120.

beware the out1 and out2 outputs are shorted on the Reply # 120 schema.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 10:24:37 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Perhaps this makes it clearer.

Regards

L192

Yes, that makes it clear now but changes everything!... I'm not sure if that's how TK envisioned his program to work and maybe if we had 30 it could handle more overall current?
Why did you not say something earlier when I made the video on page 3 or then when TK posted his 30 coil program?
Regards
Luc

Fr. Oui, cela le rend clair maintenant mais change touts!  Je ne sais pas si c'est comme ça que TK a imaginé que son programme fonctionne et peut-être que si nous en avions 30, il pourrait gérer plus de courant global?
Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas dit quelque chose plus tôt quand j'ai fait la vidéo à la page 3 et quand TK a publié son programme de 30 bobine?
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 10:27:24 PM
If you check Pierre's explanation video screenshot in https://i.imgur.com/NkNCryA.png (https://i.imgur.com/NkNCryA.png) - the solution would be full bridge on each coil including BEMF recovery circuit.

30 coils would mean 30 full bridge circuits.

Hi T-1000,

Originally that's what I planned for in the case of the 36 slot stator i.e  36 H bridges.
This was on the assumption that each coil was switched separately by it own H bridge however, what Pierre is showing in that diagram, is 36 half bridges each one created by two single pole relays and all 36 coils in series which is quiet a different arrangement.

So each high side relay that's on, is paired with low side relay thats on, 6 coils further around the series.

To achieve that scheme electronically you have to use a half bridge configuration.

Also what emerged was the current required by the six coil series, intimated to be 10A, at least that's the rating of the relays. So really now the L298N's for me at least are only a connection proving tool and I plan to use a  much more robust half bridge with 45A 45V rating and built in opto isolation, over current protection etc.

Regards

L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 10:33:00 PM
Yes, that help a little and changes everything but I'm not sure if that's how TK envisioned his program to work and maybe if we had 30 it could handle more overall current?
Why did you not say something earlier when I made the video on page 3 and then when TK posted his program?
Regards
Luc

Fr. Oui, cela aide un peu et change tout mais je ne sais pas si c'est comme ça que TK a imaginé que son programme fonctionne et peut-être que si nous en avions 30, il pourrait gérer plus de courant global?
Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas dit quelque chose plus tôt quand j'ai fait la vidéo à la page 3 et quand TK a publié son programme?
Cordialement
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

Quite simply I am spending time building the stator, so I have not spent time on the software, or anything else.
If I stop and do all you are requesting, i.e. make a schematic that shows the exact connection scheme, write the code etc, then I wont get my own build done.

Regards

L192


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 10:33:41 PM
This is my wiring job that I have done to 30 L298N:  https://youtu.be/QwIwdyHXMz0 (https://youtu.be/QwIwdyHXMz0)

Fr. C'est mon travail de câblage que j'ai fait à 30 L298N: https://youtu.be/QwIwdyHXMz0
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 29, 2018, 10:35:38 PM
Why are there less than 36 connections coming from the stator? => 28!? maybe 24?

should be 72 !
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 10:40:53 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Quite simply I am spending time building the stator, so I have not spent time on the software, or anything else.
If I stop and do all you are requesting, i.e. make a schematic that shows the exact connection scheme, write the code etc, then I wont get my own build done.

Regards

L192

Dear L192

I'm not saying you should do all those things but your idea sounds good and I just wish you would of wrote a message.
I appreciate your help and participation but your suggestion (which sounds good) changes everything. Just wish I knew about it earlier so we could all consider the pros and cons as a group.
Kind regards
Luc

Fr. Cher L192

Je ne dis pas que vous devriez faire toutes ces choses mais votre idée semble bonne et j'aimerais juste que vous écriviez un message.
J'apprécie votre aide et votre participation, mais votre suggestion (qui sonne bien) change tout. Je souhaite juste que je le savais plus tôt afin que nous puissions tous considérer les avantages et les inconvénients en tant que groupe.
Sincères amitiés
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 10:43:59 PM
Why are there less than 36 connections coming from the stator? => 28!? maybe 24?

should be 72 !

Hi r2fpl,

He probably has the coil connected in series at the stator and then just pulls 36 wires down to the relays.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 10:51:47 PM
Dear L192

I'm not saying you should do all those things but your idea sounds good and I just wish you would of wrote a message to suggest it to TK or anyone else that understand more.
I appreciate your help and participation but your suggestion (which sounds good) changes everything. Just wish I knew about it earlier so we could all consider the pros and cons.
Kind regards
Luc

Fr. Cher L192
Je ne dis pas que vous devriez faire toutes ces choses mais votre idée semble bonne et j'aimerais juste que vous écriviez un message pour le suggérer à TK ou à quelqu'un d'autre qui comprendrait plus.
J'apprécie votre aide et votre participation, mais votre suggestion (qui sonne bien) change tout. Je souhaite juste que je savais à ce sujet plus tôt afin que nous puissions tous considérer les avantages et les inconvénients.
Sincères amitiés
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

I normally write my own software, so the only reason I looked at the TK software is that you said that is what you plan to use with the L298N boards.
Sorry but I don't analyze everything that is posted.

Forgive me for asking and please don't take this the wrong way but how do you manage to function in this environment without having all the necessary skills?

Please remember I know nothing about the individuals on this forum.. is this how it is for many members?

Regards

L192



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 29, 2018, 11:01:45 PM
Hi r2fpl,

He probably has the coil connected in series at the stator and then just pulls 36 wires down to the relays.

Regards

L192


Hi listener191,

No, See ... only 4 plugs, Full cables in 3 plugs. 4 plugs is 4 cables. Total=28 !

not 36 or not 72.

How connect this ? It is impossible. How it is to the program Arduino ?




Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 29, 2018, 11:07:21 PM
liestener,luc

attention les sorties out1 et out2 sont en court-circuit sur le schéma  Reply #120.

beware the out1 and out2 outputs are shorted on the Reply # 120 schema.

Hi ARTIMOSAT,

Yes this is intentional, both sides of the H bridge are driven together to produce a half bridge with nearly double the current capacity.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

I normally write my own software, so the only reason I looked at the TK software is that you said that is what you plan to use with the L298N boards.
Sorry but I don't analyze everything that is posted.

Forgive me for asking and please don't take this the wrong way but how do you manage to function in this environment without having all the necessary skills?

Please remember I know nothing about the individuals on this forum.. is this how it is for many members?

Regards

L192

@L192
Looking at your total post count I now see you probably haven't been member for very long and understandably don't know who's who.
The research work I usually do is not replications. It's usually my own ideas based on electro and permanent magnets experiments which I share.
From my well known history and readiness to truly build and share video test results, if I need any electronics help usually well versed electronic engineer like TK and other members of this forum will help.
Sorry if I made you feel bad, it's not my intention. Just disappointed something so simple was not thought of or understood earlier.
Thanks for making it clear.
Slider2732 is now looking over your suggestion to see if it's the direction we will take. Anyone else is also free to do so and share your pros and cons.
Regards
Luc

Fr. @ L192
En regardant votre nombre total de messages, je vois maintenant que vous n'avez probablement pas été membre depuis très longtemps et, naturellement, tu ne sais pas qui est qui.
Le travail de recherche que je fais habituellement n'est pas une répétition. C'est habituellement mes propres idées basées sur des expériences d'électro et d'aimants permanents que je partage.
De mon histoire bien connue et prêt à vraiment construire et partager les résultats des tests vidéo, si j'ai besoin d'aide électronique généralement un ingénieur électronique bien versé comme TK et d'autres membres de ce forum aidera.
Désolé si je vous ai fait mal, ce n'est pas mon intention. Juste déçu quelque chose de si simple n'a pas été pensé ou compris plus tôt.
Merci de le préciser.
Slider2732 regarde maintenant votre suggestion pour voir si c'est le chemin que nous prendrons. Tout le monde est également libre de le faire et de partager vos avantages et inconvénients.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 29, 2018, 11:39:51 PM
My version, 36 slots

Very good work r2fpl
Thanks for sharing
Luc

Fr. Très bon travail r2fpl
Merci d'avoir partagé
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 29, 2018, 11:45:09 PM
In the datasheet for the chip version of the L298N we see 600mA per channel and 1.2A total. That's where I was in error when talking to you Luc, thinking the module version you have could be similarly limited. However, Sparkfun say 4A for the heatsinked version:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9479
If all 30 are now soldered, do it that route...if it doesn't run, change to L192's method ? :)
It gives an option and, if anything untoward was to happen to any of the modules in testing, you have L192's clever method to replace up to 12 defective L298N's !


Here's a quick demo of a simple rotating fields method for solid state.
It's merely outputting Pierre's type of code structure to 3 inputs of a chip version of the L298N. Coil 1 on, Coil 2 on, Coil 1 off etc.
The LED's indicate the position in the firing order. The motor is a 12 pole floppy drive 3 phase, where none of its circuit is used, the 3 coil sections are controlled directly by the Arduino and L298N. The L298N Enables are connected to Vcc.
What I can say, is that Pierre's way of running coils does work, the fields evidently rotate fine because the motor is seen running smoothly.

The short vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ9bm0EN8cc


Here's the simple code:

// 3 phase motor driver
// Variable speed
// Slider 2732, March 2018

int pot = 0;

void setup()
{
 pinMode(2, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(3, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(4, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(A0, INPUT);
}

void loop()
{
 pot = analogRead(A0);
 pot = map(pot,0,1023, 2,200);
 digitalWrite (2, HIGH);
 delay(pot);
 digitalWrite (4, LOW);
 delay(pot);
 digitalWrite (3, HIGH);
 delay(pot);
 digitalWrite (2, LOW);
 delay(pot);
 digitalWrite (4, HIGH);
 delay(pot);
 digitalWrite (3, LOW);
 delay(pot);
}


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 29, 2018, 11:45:29 PM

Hi listener191,

No, See ... only 4 plugs, Full cables in 3 plugs. 4 plugs is 4 cables. Total=28 !

not 36 or not 72.

How connect this ? It is impossible. How it is to the program Arduino ?

5 connectors (difficult to see)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 12:03:57 AM
@L192
Looking at your total post count I now see you probably haven't been member for very long and understandably don't know who's who.
The research work I usually do is not replications. It's usually my own ideas based on electro and permanent magnets experiments which I share.
From my well known history and readiness to truly build and share video test results, if I need any electronics help usually well versed electronic engineer like TK and other members of this forum will help.
Sorry if I made you feel bad, it's not my intention. Just disappointed something so simple was not thought of or understood earlier.
Thanks for making it clear.
Slider2732 is now looking over your suggestion to see if it's the direction we will take. Anyone else is also free to do so and share your pros and cons.
Regards
Luc

Fr. @ L192
En regardant votre nombre total de messages, je vois maintenant que vous n'avez probablement pas été membre depuis très longtemps et, naturellement, tu ne sais pas qui est qui.
Le travail de recherche que je fais habituellement n'est pas une répétition. C'est habituellement mes propres idées basées sur des expériences d'électro et d'aimants permanents que je partage.
De mon histoire bien connue et prêt à vraiment construire et partager les résultats des tests vidéo, si j'ai besoin d'aide électronique généralement un ingénieur électronique bien versé comme TK et d'autres membres de ce forum aidera.
Désolé si je vous ai fait mal, ce n'est pas mon intention. Juste déçu quelque chose de si simple n'a pas été pensé ou compris plus tôt.
Merci de le préciser.
Slider2732 regarde maintenant votre suggestion pour voir si c'est le chemin que nous prendrons. Tout le monde est également libre de le faire et de partager vos avantages et inconvénients.
Cordialement
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

I have been a member for 10 years, I just very rarely look at the forum (or any other forum)
I have no inclination to participate in the politics that end up permeating every thread eventually, so it is best to not linger too long.
Some projects I have worked on have a duration of several years, so that arrangement works for me.
This one is different as it has similarities to one I worked on 10 years ago based on AC and a traveling wave in a three phase rotary transformer.

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 12:06:57 AM
5 connectors (difficult to see)

Hi Cheors,

Perhaps he is running a parallel scheme for the 6 poles,  that would reduce the count.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2018, 12:14:26 AM
If all 30 are now soldered, do it that route...if it doesn't run, change to L192's method ? :)

Thanks for your reply Slider2732 but I'm going to need a little more than that.
If I was to connect all 30 L298N I would need for someone who knows the program and better knowledge in electronics to tell me which boards can be grouped together so the 120 wires can connect in the Arduino which only has some 50 or so connections. See the the problem?

Now if L192 suggestion of using 18 L298N is capable of handling the same amount of current as 30 L298N and I only need to deal with 72 wires to the Arduino instead of 120 then I would rather go that route.
I need help one way or the other and 18 sounds a lot easier to deal with then 30.
So are you or anyone else ready to help me with this part to see what this device will do?
Regards
Luc

Fr. Merci pour votre réponse Slider2732 mais je vais avoir besoin d'un peu plus que ça.
Si je devais connecter les 30 L298N, il faudrait que quelqu'un qui connaisse le programme et de meilleures connaissances en électronique me dise quelles cartes peuvent être regroupées pour que les 120 fils puissent se connecter à l'Arduino qui n'a qu'une cinquantaine de connexions. Voir le problème?
Maintenant, si la suggestion L192 d'utiliser 18 L298N est capable de gérer la même quantité de courant que 30 L298N et j'ai seulement besoin de traiter 72 fils à l'Arduino au lieu de 120 alors je préfère aller dans cette voie.
J'ai besoin d'aide dans un sens ou dans l'autre et 18 sons beaucoup plus faciles à traiter que 30.
Alors êtes-vous ou quelqu'un d'autre prêt à m'aider avec cette partie pour voir ce que cet appareil va faire?
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 03:16:48 AM
Thanks for your reply Slider2732 but I'm going to need a little more than that.
If I was to connect all 30 L298N I would need for someone who knows the program and better knowledge in electronics to tell me which boards can be grouped together so the 120 wires can connect in the Arduino which only has some 50 or so connections. See the the problem?

Now if L192 suggestion of using 18 L298N is capable of handling the same amount of current as 30 L298N and I only need to deal with 72 wires to the Arduino instead of 120 then I would rather go that route.
I need help one way or the other and 18 sounds a lot easier to deal with then 30.
So are you or anyone else ready to help me with this part to see what this device will do?
Regards
Luc

Fr. Merci pour votre réponse Slider2732 mais je vais avoir besoin d'un peu plus que ça.
Si je devais connecter les 30 L298N, il faudrait que quelqu'un qui connaisse le programme et de meilleures connaissances en électronique me dise quelles cartes peuvent être regroupées pour que les 120 fils puissent se connecter à l'Arduino qui n'a qu'une cinquantaine de connexions. Voir le problème?
Maintenant, si la suggestion L192 d'utiliser 18 L298N est capable de gérer la même quantité de courant que 30 L298N et j'ai seulement besoin de traiter 72 fils à l'Arduino au lieu de 120 alors je préfère aller dans cette voie.
J'ai besoin d'aide dans un sens ou dans l'autre et 18 sons beaucoup plus faciles à traiter que 30.
Alors êtes-vous ou quelqu'un d'autre prêt à m'aider avec cette partie pour voir ce que cet appareil va faire?
Cordialement
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

30 L298N H bridges individually connected to 30 coils would be 2A per coil, 60A in total, whereas with the series scheme there are 3 current paths running through three half bridges, each handling 3.5A or 10.5A in total... big difference.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 30, 2018, 04:27:52 AM
Luc - I did think there was a circuit to follow with the 30 modules, but if not and if they can cope with the needed amperage via L192's design, it makes sense to do that.
We're lucky to have such input as his in my opinion. Pierre used relays, so it's a case of what can work effectively.
The changes to the code are something I can do, or help with, as i'm sure others will :)
Now, yes, it becomes a case of what gets soldered to where.
Is there a flowchart or diagram of circuit path ? for example how the diode recovery gets back to the supercaps ?
There may be areas that can be soldered up while waiting for a full circuit diagram or the code changes.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2018, 04:54:26 AM
Hi Slider2739,

I received a  personal message from pmgr and he is wiling to help map out all the connections for me according to the 2560 programs timings.
As for the coil recovery diodes, I already asked about that on page 8 and L192 has replied and said the L298N have recovery diodes built into the board
http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg518983/#msg518983
I guess somehow the coil recovery will go back through the power rails and evened out by the super capacitors.

Regards
Luc

Fr. Salut Slider2739,
J'ai reçu un message personnel de la part de pmgr et il est prêt à aider à établir toutes les connexions pour moi selon les horaires des programmes du 2560.
En ce qui concerne les diodes de récupération de bobine, j'ai déjà demandé à ce sujet à la page 8 et L192 a répondu et dit que le L298N ont des diodes de récupération intégrées dans la carte
http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg518983/#msg518983
Je suppose que la récupération de la bobine reviendra en quelque sorte à travers les rails d'alimentation et compensée par les supercondensateurs.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on March 30, 2018, 06:01:58 AM
Hi Luc and everyone
Just my two cents and disregard if you "don't think so"(no problem)  but it scares me a bit with those modules with their "built in" recovery diodes....as I am thinking where do they go to?

 Is there an external "collector" capacitor that collects the backemf/recoil/flyback energy via those steering diodes  and this collector capaciyor  is then pulsed out to load (for example)s after 4 pulses filling them, the...load in this case would be the supercaps

To fill up super-caps "straight" from backemf/recoil/flyback steering diodes usually does not work very well, since the caps being so large of UF will act like a resistive load to the backemf/recoil energy steered out through the  steering diodes....and so this immediately reflects back to lurch up the primary input to much larger draw and it just becomes a big loss to system...I am sure any of you working with flyback/backemf energy know this - and what needs to be done is proper size UF cap needs to be filled, and this cap filled all by itself, with no resistive load over it too.....then this cap is periodically discharged to a load (so cap does not fill up and stay filled up otherwise being filled up it will stop collecting the backemf/recoil energy!)

And important this collector cap must be disconnected from the steering diodes and/or switching whenever it does discharge, or the discharge reflects back to the primary, and it goes up in draw terrible ....(anyone who has worked with backemf/flyback energy also knows this)
This is called a two-stage cap discharge output...pretty common stuff really....

Anyways I cannot believe those built in diodes in those modules will do anything at all but to suppress the backemf/flyback energy and snuff it out so it will not disturb the electronics in the modules and this would be the normal thing to do - ususally the designer will steer the energy straight back into the inductor, snuffing out the :"destgructive transients" that way - and I will suppose that is all those modules will do too, with their built-in diodes...

So I think how Pierre has external steering diodes mounted to his relays to recover the backemf/recoil energy into the supercaps will be actually recovering that backemf/recoil energy and helping the super caps stay stocked up in joules, keeping the system looped and self-sustaining....
(at least helping it to)
While I think those modules will only suppresss and snuff out the backemf/recoil energy, adding nothing to the supercaps...
The supercap UF value might not be such a factor, since Pierre pre-charges those caps, and the caps being already high in voltage will make them more receptive to recieveing and capturing the backemf/recoil energy - that is all I can think of as to how it can actually work OK

One more thing - having modern "ultra fast" or even better "hyper fast" diodes as the backemf/recoil recovery diodes could make the system even better....at least I hiope those are shottkys but there are even better diodes out nowadays....look up the hyper fast ones....

So that is my two cents sorry!
Please continue everyone how you are all doing great!!!!
I like this moderated board it was quite ridiculous the arguments and accusations and eventual sabotage of this project by the usual dickweeds ....
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 30, 2018, 06:54:09 AM
Hi Luc,




Edit: just realized I did this originally for 36 slot rotor. Edited below now and fixed for 30 slot stator.
Edit 2: updated for enable pins.

I don't have time today to make a drawing but a description should work as well.

Each coil has two leads, input lead A and output lead B, so e.g. Coil 1 has leads C_01A and C_01B, coil 2 has leads C_02A and C_02B, etc.... Coil 30 has leads C_30A and C_30B. The leading C_ stands for Coil. We will use H_ for the H-bridge and A_ for the Arduino.

The Arduino has 54 digital I/Os. We are going to use only 30 of them (for 30 coils): A_01 through A_30.


Each of the half bridge has 6 inputs: Inputs 1 through 4 and Enable A and Enable B. Remove the Enable A and B jumpers  (so they are NOT connected to Vcc). Input 1,2 should be connected to Vcc, input 3,4 to GND. ENA and ENB should be connected together as we are going to activate both the high (Vcc) FET and the low (GND) FET at the same time to activate a set of 5 coils. You already have all coils connected in series on the stator, so you can leave that in place.


So let's call the EN inputs that are connected together H_01I for bridge 1, H_02I for bridge 2, etc. through H_30I. The I stands for input.

The H-bridge has 4 outputs. Output 1 and 2 are connected together and Output 3 and 4 are connected together (for double amps). Let's now assign these two resulting outputs as H_01A (for output 1-2) and H_01B  (output 3-4).

Then the connections you will need to make are:

A_01 output to input H_01I, and outputs H_01A to C_01A and H_01B to C_05B (so five coils in series)
A_02 output to input H_02I, and outputs H_02A to C_02A and H_02B to C_06B
etc.

A_29 output to input H_29I, and outputs H_29A to C_29A and H_29B to C_03B
A_30 output to input H_30I, and outputs H_30A to C_30A and H_30B to C_04B

That's it. Just label all the wires accordingly so you can easily find back wires later on.

I note a few things. Please also see the datasheet of the L298N:

https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/L298_H_Bridge.pdf (https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/L298_H_Bridge.pdf)

Each output of the L298N can carry 2Amps of current max (maybe 2.5-3amps at 1/12 duty cycle but let's use 2amps for now). Since we hooked two outputs together, each of the outputs H_01A and H01B can supply or sink 4Amps of current.

Each of your coils has about 0.5ohms resistance. We are driving 5 coils in series, so that is about 2.5ohms total per coil.

However, we are activating 6 poles with 6 FETs (3 on the high (Vcc) side and 3 on the low (GND) side, see the image in reply #9).

So e.g. we would activate A_01, A_11 and A_21 on the Arduino which will activate H-bridge H_01I, H_11I and H_21I and coils C01A-C05B, C_11A-C_15B and C_21A-C_25B with forward current and coils C_06A-C_10B, C_16A-C20B and C_26A-C_30B with reverse current.

This makes the 6 poles. One each subsequent Arduino step, everything shifts by one:

We would activate A_02, A_12 and A_22 on the Arduino which will activate H-bridge H_02I, H_12I and H_22I and coils C02A-C06B, C_12A-C_16B and C_22A-C_26B with forward current and coils C_07A-C_11B, C_17A-C_21B and C_27A-C_01B with reverse current[/size].
etc.

I note that because of this configuration (Which is the same as Pierre is using), the current that each FET supplies is split into two coilsets (5 series coils per set, let's call it a 5-coilset). So e.g. the FET at coil 1 (H-bridge output H_01A) provides current to two coils sets (5-coilset C_01A-C_05B and 5-coilset C_26A-C_30B). Since the resistance of each 5-coilset is 2.5 ohms, the current will be split equally, so 2Amps max per 5-coilset.

At each point in time there are 6 poles on (each pole has 2 5-coilsets), so total current draw will be 6x2amps=12amps max.

The max voltage over one 5-coilset is 2.5ohms x 2amps = 5 volts. So you should not be driving your coils with anything higher than 5 volts, otherwise you will burn out your FETs.

So this confirms Pierre's concern about the H-bridges not being able to provide enough current. But I think this is good for an initial try to see if we can make a rotating magnetic field.

Let me know if you have any questions or if things are not clear.

PmgR
====
Help end the persecution of Falun Gong * www.faluninfo.net (http://www.faluninfo.net) * www.stoporganharvesting.org (http://www.stoporganharvesting.org)
Title: secrets
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2018, 07:23:59 AM
Hi all,
please note the number of wires coming from Pierre's induced coil.
The attached image is an enlarged detail from his 1st video at ca. 6:30

Hello Pierre,
please consider how Linus Torvalds (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki) made an operating system for computers and open sourced it.
Today he has thousands of collaborators who provide a free operating system - an alternative to the products of the military industrial complex.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 09:30:04 AM
Hi Luc,

I don't have time today to make a drawing but a description should work as well.

Each coil has two leads, input lead A and output lead B, so e.g. Coil 1 has leads C_01A and C_01B, coil 2 has leads C_02A and C_02B, etc.... Coil 36 has leads C_36A and C_36B. The leading C_ stands for Coil. We will use H_ for the H-bridge and A_ for the Arduino.

The Arduino has 54 digital I/Os. We are going to use only 36 of them (for 36 coils): A_01 through A_36.


Each of the half bridge has 6 inputs: Inputs 1 through 4 and Enable A and Enable B. You can leave the Enable A and B jumpers in place (so they are connected to Vcc and HIGH). Input 1,2,3,4 should all be connected together as we are going to activate both the high (Vcc) FET and the low (GND) FET at the same time to activate a set of 6 coils. You already have all coils connected in series on the stator, so you can leave that in place.


So let's call the four inputs that are connected together H_01I for bridge 1, H_02I for bridge 2, etc. through H_36I. The I stands for input.

The H-bridge has 4 outputs. Output 1 and 2 are connected together and Output 3 and 4 are connected together (for double amps). Let's now assign these two resulting outputs as H_01A (for output 1-2) and H_01B  (output 3-4).

Then the connections you will need to make are:

A_01 output to input H_01I, and outputs H_01A to C_01A and H_01B to C_06B (so six coils in series)
A_02 output to input H_02I, and outputs H_02A to C_02A and H_02B to C_07B
etc.

A_35 output to input H_35I, and outputs H_35A to C_35A and H_36B to C_04B
A_36 output to input H_36I, and outputs H_36A to C_36A and H_36B to C_05B

That's it. Just label all the wires accordingly so you can easily find back wires later on.

I note a few things. Please also see the datasheet of the L298N:

https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/L298_H_Bridge.pdf (https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/L298_H_Bridge.pdf)

Each output of the L298N can carry 2Amps of current max (maybe 2.5-3amps at 1/12 duty cycle but let's use 2amps for now). Since we hooked two outputs together, each of the outputs H_01A and H01B can supply or sink 4Amps of current.

Each of your coils has about 0.5ohms resistance. We are driving 6 coils in series, so that is about 3ohms total per coil.

However, we are activating 6 poles with 6 FETs (3 on the high (Vcc) side and 3 on the low (GND) side, see the image in reply #9).

So e.g. we would activate A_01, A_13 and A_25 on the Arduino which will activate H-bridge H_01I, H_13I and H_25I and coils C01A-C06B, C_13A-C_18B and C_25A-C_30B with forward current and coils C_07A-C12B, C_19A-C24B and C_31A-C36B with reverse current.

This makes the 6 poles. One each subsequent Arduino step, everything shifts by one:

We would activate A_02, A_14 and A_26 on the Arduino which will activate H-bridge H_02I, H_14I and H_26I and coils C02A-C07B, C_14A-C_19B and C_26A-C_31B with forward current and coils C_08A-C13B, C_20A-C25B and C_32A-C01B with reverse current[/size].
etc.

I note that because of this configuration (Which is the same as Pierre is using), the current that each FET supplies is split into two coilsets (6 series coils per set, let's call it a 6-coilset). So e.g. the FET at coil 1 (H-bridge output H_01A) provides current to two coils sets (6-coilset C_01A-C_06B and 6-coilset C_31A-C_36B). Since the resistance of each 6-coilset is 3 ohms, the current will be split equally, so 2Amps max per 6-coilset.

At each point in time there are 6 poles on (each pole has 2 6-coilsets), so total current draw will be 6x2amps=12amps max.

The max voltage over one 6-coilset is 3ohms x 2amps = 6 volts. So you should not be driving your coils with anything higher than 6 volts, otherwise you will burn out your FETs.

So this confirms Pierre's concern about the H-bridges not being able to provide enough current. But I think this is good for an initial try to see if we can make a rotating magnetic field.

Let me know if you have any questions or if things are not clear.

PmgR
====
Help end the persecution of Falun Gong * www.faluninfo.net (http://www.faluninfo.net) * www.stoporganharvesting.org (http://www.stoporganharvesting.org)

Hi PmgR,

You have to use the EnA & EnB inputs as when you take these low both upper and lower transistors are then turned off, otherwise the In1/In2 In2/In3 just determine which transistor is turned on.

The half bridges not in use have to be  completely switched off.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 09:38:43 AM
Hi Luc and everyone
Just my two cents and disregard if you "don't think so"(no problem)  but it scares me a bit with those modules with their "built in" recovery diodes....as I am thinking where do they go to?

 Is there an external "collector" capacitor that collects the backemf/recoil/flyback energy via those steering diodes  and this collector capaciyor  is then pulsed out to load (for example)s after 4 pulses filling them, the...load in this case would be the supercaps

To fill up super-caps "straight" from backemf/recoil/flyback steering diodes usually does not work very well, since the caps being so large of UF will act like a resistive load to the backemf/recoil energy steered out through the  steering diodes....and so this immediately reflects back to lurch up the primary input to much larger draw and it just becomes a big loss to system...I am sure any of you working with flyback/backemf energy know this - and what needs to be done is proper size UF cap needs to be filled, and this cap filled all by itself, with no resistive load over it too.....then this cap is periodically discharged to a load (so cap does not fill up and stay filled up otherwise being filled up it will stop collecting the backemf/recoil energy!)

And important this collector cap must be disconnected from the steering diodes and/or switching whenever it does discharge, or the discharge reflects back to the primary, and it goes up in draw terrible ....(anyone who has worked with backemf/flyback energy also knows this)
This is called a two-stage cap discharge output...pretty common stuff really....

Anyways I cannot believe those built in diodes in those modules will do anything at all but to suppress the backemf/flyback energy and snuff it out so it will not disturb the electronics in the modules and this would be the normal thing to do - ususally the designer will steer the energy straight back into the inductor, snuffing out the :"destgructive transients" that way - and I will suppose that is all those modules will do too, with their built-in diodes...

So I think how Pierre has external steering diodes mounted to his relays to recover the backemf/recoil energy into the supercaps will be actually recovering that backemf/recoil energy and helping the super caps stay stocked up in joules, keeping the system looped and self-sustaining....
(at least helping it to)
While I think those modules will only suppresss and snuff out the backemf/recoil energy, adding nothing to the supercaps...
The supercap UF value might not be such a factor, since Pierre pre-charges those caps, and the caps being already high in voltage will make them more receptive to recieveing and capturing the backemf/recoil energy - that is all I can think of as to how it can actually work OK

One more thing - having modern "ultra fast" or even better "hyper fast" diodes as the backemf/recoil recovery diodes could make the system even better....at least I hiope those are shottkys but there are even better diodes out nowadays....look up the hyper fast ones....

So that is my two cents sorry!
Please continue everyone how you are all doing great!!!!
I like this moderated board it was quite ridiculous the arguments and accusations and eventual sabotage of this project by the usual dickweeds ....

Hi Konehead,

There is nothing wrong with a half bridge arrangement and diodes as shown, except you are correct the super caps will present much impedance to charge which will likely overheat the diodes. If a half bridge with MOSFET's were used with a rating of say 20A or greater, the body diodes would have the same rating and this would not be an issue. I think the L298N's can only be run at very low current in this arrangement.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: secrets
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 09:40:11 AM
Hi all,
please note the number of wires coming from Pierre's induced coil.
The attached image is an enlarged detail from his 1st video at ca. 6:30

Hello Pierre,
please consider how Linus Torvalds (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki) made an operating system for computers and open sourced it.
Today he has thousands of collaborators who provide a free operating system - an alternative to the products of the military industrial complex.

Hi Oscar,

Yes,he is using two parallel windings to provide two 115V outputs.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 30, 2018, 09:45:42 AM
Hi PmgR,

You have to use the EnA & EnB inputs as when you take these low both upper and lower transistors are then turned off, otherwise the In1/In2 In2/In3 just determine which transistor is turned on.

The half bridges not in use have to be  completely switched off.

Regards

L192
Yes, you are right. Luc, remove the jumpers to Vcc in and instead connect ENA to ENB to arduino. Connect in1/in2 to Vcc and in3/in4 to GND.
I have updated the original post.
PmgR
Title: Re: secrets
Post by: T-1000 on March 30, 2018, 10:47:45 AM
Hi all,
please note the number of wires coming from Pierre's induced coil.
The attached image is an enlarged detail from his 1st video at ca. 6:30
Due square wave-like with spikes going on induction (because the field rotates in 6 steps resolution) the collecting coils must have more interwinding capacity in order to consume spikes. In low resolution of magnetic field movement simulation the flat collection coils made from foil might be even better due spike rise/falll times against wire length and inductance.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Thaelin on March 30, 2018, 11:05:42 AM
Has consideration to the direction of injected signal from the recovery diodes been given? Could this be driving a H/V spike on top of the rail?  TDR reflections play havoc in certain situations but may well be "USED" in this one creating extra voltage on the main rails.

thay
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
If a half bridge with MOSFET's were used with a rating of say 20A or greater, the body diodes would have the same rating and this would not be an issue.

In this case in which we use mosfets or IGBTs do you think that an extra diode is needed? (To prevent an opposite flow of current  through the mosfet/IGBT body diode).

ps. I have the suspicion that thyristors are best for this work.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on March 30, 2018, 06:02:24 PM

To achieve that scheme electronically you have to use a half bridge configuration.

I plan to use a  much more robust half bridge with 45A 45V rating and built in opto isolation, over current protection etc.


Can you provide a type of such an isolated bridge? 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on March 30, 2018, 06:09:13 PM
This may be obvious and I may have missed it in the technical discussions.
But if we view the supercaps of Pierre's as the condensers in the Benitez Patent, doesn't that make sense of why there are 72 relays and not just 36 ?
Every time there is a collection from a coil sequence, the correct supercap is grounded.
All supercaps can be initially charged and then at the switch on of the device their common ground to the charging source is removed, replaced by the switching action in and out of those relays.
Control timings need not be in any Arduino code and, we don't see it there in Pierre's published code, instead tied to the relevant ordering of the coil relays.
Each coil winding is a transformer of the Benitez Patent ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2018, 08:13:43 PM
Input 1,2 should be connected to Vcc, input 3,4 to GND.

Are Input 1,2 and 3,4 connected to Vcc and GHD of the Arduino or Vcc and GND of the input power rails?

Each of your coils has about 0.5ohms resistance. We are driving 5 coils in series, so that is about 2.5ohms total per coil.

Sorry but the way I understood Pierre's circuit is, even though all the coils are connected in series they are individually driven, so I don't understand why you wrote "We are driving 5 coils in series"
It would be important we be on the same page before moving forward.
 
However, we are activating 6 poles with 6 FETs (3 on the high (Vcc) side and 3 on the low (GND) side

Yes, I agree and understood it this way
Thanks for your help and kind regards

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2018, 08:27:25 PM
why there are 72 relays and not just 36 ?

The way I understand it is, there's 2 relays per coil because, one for each direction the current is to circulate in.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on March 30, 2018, 09:33:08 PM
The way I understand it is, there's 2 relays per coil because, one for each direction the current is to circulate in.

Regards
Luc
Please see numbers in frame captures from video:
https://i.imgur.com/pNVrVIV.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/pNVrVIV.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/XPcfU3S.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/XPcfU3S.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/BEve2jS.png (https://i.imgur.com/BEve2jS.png)
https://i.imgur.com/SyfQ4oy.png

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 10:04:06 PM
Are Input 1,2 and 3,4 connected to Vcc and GHD of the Arduino or Vcc and GND of the input power rails?

Sorry but the way I understood Pierre's circuit is, even though all the coils are connected in series they are individually driven, so I don't understand why you wrote "We are driving 5 coils in series"
It would be important we be on the same page before moving forward.
 
Yes, I agree and understood it this way
Thanks for your help and kind regards

Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

In the case of the 36 slot stator there are 6 coils driven in series. Pierre shows this on his diagram.  From the switch high side feed the current goes through 6 coils in series clockwise and 6 coils anticlockwise. At the end of the 6th coil the low side switch is turned on completing the current flow. This generates an adjacent North and South pole. This is repeated at two more times to createtwo more sets of poles. The three high side switches and 3 low side switches are then all rotated to the next switch positions before the previous set of switches are turned off.

Regards

L192   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on March 30, 2018, 10:16:14 PM
J'espère que ce ne sera pas trop confus. Il s'agit d'une tentative de visualisation des champs magnétiques, laquelle semble mettre en évidence que les bobines, dans 30 rainures / 36, ont leurs lignes de champ en opposition.

On est toujours avec le stator de Pierre avec ses 36 rainures (fentes), et 36 bobines au pas de 6 rainures. Chaque bobine est composée de 6 bobines en série (une couleur pour chacune).

J'ai indiqué une légende sur la gauche de l'image :

- Dans 30 rainures du stator, les 2 bobines qui s'y trouvent ont leurs champs en opposition (répulsion) Nord/Nord ou Sud/Sud ;
- Dans 6 rainures du stator, les 2 bobines on leur lignes de champ en attraction.

On peut estimer que les mêmes répulsions se produisent dans le chignon (où les fils se croisent aux deux bouts du stator).

Au lieu de couvrir 6 rainures, si chaque bobine en couvrait 7, dans l'ensemble du stator les lignes de champ seraient en opposition.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 30, 2018, 10:28:28 PM
J'espère que ce ne sera pas trop confus. Il s'agit d'une tentative de visualisation des champs magnétiques, laquelle semble mettre en évidence que les bobines, dans 30 rainures / 36, ont leurs lignes de champ en opposition.

On est toujours avec le stator de Pierre avec ses 36 rainures (fentes), et 36 bobines au pas de 6 rainures. Chaque bobine est composée de 6 bobines en série (une couleur pour chacune).

J'ai indiqué une légende sur la gauche de l'image :

- Dans 30 rainures du stator, les 2 bobines qui s'y trouvent ont leurs champs en opposition (répulsion) Nord/Nord ou Sud/Sud ;
- Dans 6 rainures du stator, les 2 bobines on leur lignes de champ en attraction.




On peut estimer que les mêmes répulsions se produisent dans le chignon (où les fils se croisent aux deux bouts du stator).

Au lieu de couvrir 6 rainures, si chaque bobine en couvrait 7, dans l'ensemble du stator les lignes de champ seraient en opposition.

Hi MichelM,


Yes exactly.

Regards

L192



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 30, 2018, 11:25:28 PM
Are Input 1,2 and 3,4 connected to Vcc and GHD of the Arduino or Vcc and GND of the input power rails?

Sorry but the way I understood Pierre's circuit is, even though all the coils are connected in series they are individually driven, so I don't understand why you wrote "We are driving 5 coils in series"
It would be important we be on the same page before moving forward.
 
Yes, I agree and understood it this way
Thanks for your help and kind regards

Luc
Input 1,2 should be connected to Vss (not Vs) of the H-bridge. This is the logic supply voltage, so 5V, not your input voltage (unless it is 5V as well). Please see attached image. Input 3,4 to GND. GND in general should all be connected together, so GND of H-bridge and GND of Arduino should be connected as well. And then input 3,4 to GND (you can do it on the H-bridge as well).

I note that this bridge has actually transistors and not FETs. The voltage drop across the collector-emitter is around 1-2V when driving 2Amps of current through each of them (4A total per 2 outputs). So your rails voltage can be higher than 5V, e.g. it could be 7-9 volts. I suggest you start at 5V then go to 9V max. Then measure the voltages at a coil compared to GND. Current through the coil will be voltage drop over the coil divided by the 0.5ohm resistance.

Regarding the coils, they are driving six at a a time. Just driving a single one will not generate a large magnetic field. You drive six (in your case 5) in series and the field strengths add up.


PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 30, 2018, 11:51:56 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

In the case of the 36 slot stator there are 6 coils driven in series. Pierre shows this on his diagram.  From the switch high side feed the current goes through 6 coils in series clockwise and 6 coils anticlockwise. At the end of the 6th coil the low side switch is turned on completing the current flow. This generates an adjacent North and South pole. This is repeated at two more times to createtwo more sets of poles. The three high side switches and 3 low side switches are then all rotated to the next switch positions before the previous set of switches are turned off.

Regards

L192   

That video of his complete circuit was him sharing a possible solution to eliminate the WWW wave he was seeing on his scope.

Pierre's instructions and diagram prior to making that video.

Eng. About the sequence of the arduino, you will have to turn on one coil and then the other and then turn off the first coil otherwise you will break the magnetic field. The goal is not to turn off the magnetic flux but only to keep it moving ex: 1 on, 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 2 off etc.

Fr.
pour de ce qui est de la séquence de l'arduino quand vous ferez la séquence vous devrez allumer une bobine et puis l'autre  et par la suite éteindre la première  sinon vous allez coupé le champ magnétique le but étant de ne pas éteindre le flux seulement le déplacer    ex:1 on, 2 on, 1 off ,3 on, 2 off etc.

I don't know but I read that and see the diagram he provided with those instructions as coils are individually powered and not 5 or 6 powered in series in a row.
However, there are 6 poles, so at all times there are 6 coils powered plus another 6 for the overlap time.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 31, 2018, 12:54:03 AM
So I am looking back over the sequence of progression on how the coils are supposed to be configured. I originally thought only one coil was powered at a time which appears what Luc's previous picture shows as well.


Then Pierre posted his video where he makes one coil out of six coils (by putting them in series) so then I thought this is how he has his current machine wired.


But maybe this is not the case. Maybe his last video was just a way to improve his current machine.


Maybe someone who can read over his French replies once more can shed some more light on this.


PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: keykhin on March 31, 2018, 01:52:25 AM
Hi everyone! This is my first post here. I'm following this thread for a while and I want to give you some advice. That L298 is suitable for RC's and small stepper motors used in 3D printers or small CNC machines. In this DZ particular case you have to deal with coils that have low resistance and high inductance. Use specially designed mosfets with logic level drive and very low on-resistance like IRLR2905 or IGBT's like IXDH35N60B from IXYS Corporation or equivalent. But I advice everyone for the first build to use relays. As a personal project I have in my mind to design a simple and low cost sequencer based on a PIC microcontroller. Using one Arduino for this simple job is like killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer. I will return when I finish the code. Cheers, K.[/size]
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 31, 2018, 03:16:41 AM
Luc, one more question I have about the last picture you posted is how Pierre controls the direction of the current. The Arduino appears to only control the transistors that control the relays, but what determines if the top relay turns on or the bottom relay? I would assume one transistor controls both at the same time.

E.g. in your picture, let's say the left two relays with the forward flowing arrows are turned on with transistor 1 (so coil 1 on), then if for that particular coil he wants to switch current direction, what transistor(s) would he need to turn on? If he turns on the second transistor, it would give the same forward flowing current in the second coil, not reverse current. He would need to turn on the GND connection of coil 36 (controlled by transistor 36).

If he turns on the first transistor (so he gets the GND connection for second coil for negative flow), he would also need to turn on the third coil. Then he will get reverse current in second coil, but the third coil will also be on in forward direction. And he would have transistor 1 and 3 on at the same time. His Arduino code doesn't show any evidence of that kind of transistor switching.

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: e2matrix on March 31, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
I'm not sure if these were mentioned before but in cruising eBay I notice these 8 channel 8 relay module boards for Arduino for only $4.96 (from Hong Kong) or same one from a U.S. seller for $7.95 which appear to be identical to the 8 relay boards in Pierre's video as seen at 6:16 into his second video which showed it completely self running.   You can easily find them on eBay by these item numbers:  eBay item number:172396554144 for the $4.96 one from H.K. and eBay item number:231682185473 for the $7.95 one from the U.S.   I'm quite sure they are identical to the one's in Pierre's video for anyone wanting to do a relay type replication.  Nine of the boards would be needed for your 72 relays which only comes to about $45 total with shipping - not bad for all that many relays with screw connections and rated 10 amp at 250 VAC and Arduino ready.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 09:23:32 AM
Building H-Bridge,  I suggests used 2 sets:

AOD609: N/P-MOSFET;  http://aosmd.com/pdfs/datasheet/AOD609.pdf
or
FDD8424H: N/P-MOSFET; http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/FDD8424H-92711.pdf
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: e2matrix on March 31, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
Hi everyone! This is my first post here. I'm following this thread for a while and I want to give you some advice. That L298 is suitable for RC's and small stepper motors used in 3D printers or small CNC machines. In this DZ particular case you have to deal with coils that have low resistance and high inductance. Use specially designed mosfets with logic level drive and very low on-resistance like IRLR2905 or IGBT's like IXDH35N60B from IXYS Corporation or equivalent. But I advice everyone for the first build to use relays. As a personal project I have in my mind to design a simple and low cost sequencer based on a PIC microcontroller. Using one Arduino for this simple job is like killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer. I will return when I finish the code. Cheers, K.[/size]


It seems Arduino's have gotten so cheap ( $10 to around $18 for a Mega 2560 R3) that they are as cheap or even less than many PIC controllers and can do a lot more with them if you decide to use it for something else.   But if you are more familiar with PIC controllers and can get the same results thats all good too.   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 09:25:18 AM
That video of his complete circuit was him sharing a possible solution to eliminate the WWW wave he was seeing on his scope.

Pierre's instructions and diagram prior to making that video.

Eng. About the sequence of the arduino, you will have to turn on one coil and then the other and then turn off the first coil otherwise you will break the magnetic field. The goal is not to turn off the magnetic flux but only to keep it moving ex: 1 on, 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 2 off etc.

Fr.
pour de ce qui est de la séquence de l'arduino quand vous ferez la séquence vous devrez allumer une bobine et puis l'autre  et par la suite éteindre la première  sinon vous allez coupé le champ magnétique le but étant de ne pas éteindre le flux seulement le déplacer    ex:1 on, 2 on, 1 off ,3 on, 2 off etc.

I don't know but I read that and see the diagram he provided with those instructions as coils are individually powered and not 5 or 6 powered in series in a row.
However, there are 6 poles, so at all times there are 6 coils powered plus another 6 for the overlap time.

Regards
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

I believe that  diagram Pierre made was just to demonstrate the switching principle, the larger diagram in the video showing all the coils, was made to show that 6 coils were energize in series.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 09:40:12 AM
Luc, one more question I have about the last picture you posted is how Pierre controls the direction of the current. The Arduino appears to only control the transistors that control the relays, but what determines if the top relay turns on or the bottom relay? I would assume one transistor controls both at the same time.

E.g. in your picture, let's say the left two relays with the forward flowing arrows are turned on with transistor 1 (so coil 1 on), then if for that particular coil he wants to switch current direction, what transistor(s) would he need to turn on? If he turns on the second transistor, it would give the same forward flowing current in the second coil, not reverse current. He would need to turn on the GND connection of coil 36 (controlled by transistor 36).

If he turns on the first transistor (so he gets the GND connection for second coil for negative flow), he would also need to turn on the third coil. Then he will get reverse current in second coil, but the third coil will also be on in forward direction. And he would have transistor 1 and 3 on at the same time. His Arduino code doesn't show any evidence of that kind of transistor switching.

PmgR

Hi Pmgr,

Yes you are correct, each high side relay coil is also linked to a respective low side relay coil, (6 coils further around the loop), so one line switches both hence only 36 control lines are need with his scheme.

I think this is what he started with and what he showed us however, as there appear to be less than 36 wires going to the stator, I wonder if he has paralleled the 3 north pole together and paralleled the 3 south poles together? That would reduce the wires to 12. The number of wires appears to be 28 but there are at least two wires going to the same contact on one of the connectors.

It would take some thought to realize what the effect of that would be. 

 Regards

L192 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 31, 2018, 09:47:40 AM
Pour faire tourner le champ magnétique régulièrement il faut activer 2 bobines adjacentes L1, puis L1 et L2, puis L2, L2 et L3,.... 
Or les bobines sont alimentés + - pour la première et - + pour la seconde.
Comme on veut le même champ pour le renforcer, il me semble que l'on doit bobiner L1 dans le sens horaire et  L2 dans le sens anti-horaire. 
Ainsi les bobines impaires seraient CW , les paires CCW.
A -t-on déjà parlé de çà ? Evident ou pas ? J'ai manqué quelque chose ? le secret de Pierre ?

To rotate the magnetic field regularly it is necessary to activate 2 adjacent coils L1, then L1 and L2, then L2, L2 and L3, ....
But the coils are powered + - for the first and - + for the second.
As we want the same field to strengthen it, it seems to me that we must wind L1 clockwise and L2 in the anti-clockwise direction.
Thus the odd coils would be CW, the even coils CCW .
Have we already talked about that? Obvious or not? I missed something? the secret of Peter?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 10:55:04 AM
They can be all CW or CCW does not matter. For convenience, there could be CW and CCW less connection distance. In the configuration, all CW can change the ends of every CW then there will be reverse polarity.

example:
all CW or CCW            = A1 .... B1, A2 ... B2, ..... the connection will be: A1 + B2 and B1 + A2
for once CW and CCW = A1 .... B1, A2 ... B2, ..... the connection will be: A1 + A2 and B1 + B2

Of course, it depends on the subsequent connections between the coil orders.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on March 31, 2018, 12:36:22 PM
In regards to sequence, each group have 6 coils N and 6 coils S for three phase rotation. Only 4 coils used at once before flipping over to other set.
So the the three phase sequence for moving magnetic field would be in coil positions:
1) V+2 V-5 and V-31 V+35
2) V+2,V+3 V-5,V-6 and V-31,V-32 V+35,V+36
3) V+3 V-6 and V-32 V+36
Then continuing to flip around ring over next shifted sets of coils.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on March 31, 2018, 01:20:47 PM
Hi Pmgr,

Yes you are correct, each high side relay coil is also linked to a respective low side relay coil, (6 coils further around the loop), so one line switches both hence only 36 control lines are need with his scheme.

I think this is what he started with and what he showed us however, as there appear to be less than 36 wires going to the stator, I wonder if he has paralleled the 3 north pole together and paralleled the 3 south poles together? That would reduce the wires to 12. The number of wires appears to be 28 but there are at least two wires going to the same contact on one of the connectors.

It would take some thought to realize what the effect of that would be. 

 Regards

L192
Someone else stated that there are actually 5 green connectors in the video (hard to see), not four. So that would make 4x8 + 4 = 36 connections to the stator. Also, his boards show labels going up to 36.
PmgR

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 31, 2018, 01:39:24 PM
5 conns
But still Pierres repetition frequency is 5 Hz !
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 02:07:34 PM
I found problem L298n.

When connect 2 channel (ex. coil1 and coil2) Voltage is different beetwen them.

I change L298n to another new. I changed coil 1-2, 2-1. Still channel 1 is more voltage to 2 channel less voltage !

1 = 0.56 ohm
2 = 0.56 ohm

When driver no load, voltage is equal.

Solution:
join 2 channel together and make one L298n for 1 coil

calibrate voltage used PWM. this method takes 2 pin arduino more. Total 6 pins on 2 channel.

https://youtu.be/_jbd0DPaQg0


I think this driver is very poor for our applications.

temp 80C about 5 minutes work.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 02:49:19 PM
I redraw H bridge for Arduino.

Maybe replaced this mosfets to multi mosfet ? I write few post later.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 04:23:49 PM
L298n - test 2 channel witch 1 coil

There is still a difference on the channels although it is the same coil.

https://youtu.be/hvrPy_lQfDI
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
L298n - and another problem.
Overheating 85C ! destability output. We needs better cooling for this driver.

https://youtu.be/TgLBk3GdHSA
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on March 31, 2018, 07:21:37 PM
Yes, you are right. Luc, remove the jumpers to Vcc in and instead connect ENA to ENB to arduino. Connect in1/in2 to Vcc and in3/in4 to GND.
I have updated the original post.
PmgR

Hi PmgR

I didn't understand how you can get AC the way you suggest to connect it but I tried one to see: https://youtu.be/afLj8s-jscg (https://youtu.be/afLj8s-jscg)

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 31, 2018, 08:30:03 PM
L'interrupteur 1 haut est fermé (S1H).
L'interrupteur S7L est fermé.
Le courant circule de L1 à L6. D'ACCORD.

Quelqu'un pourrait dire quelle est la prochaine étape quand le programme Arduino envoie un second digitalWrite pour fermer d'autres commutateurs ?

Switch 1 high is closed( S1H).
Switch S7L is closed.
Current flows through L1  to L6. OK.

Somedbody could tell what is the next step when the Arduino program send a second digitalWrite to close some more switches ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on March 31, 2018, 08:40:45 PM
Hi Everyone
Pierre just put his videos back up again on youtube parts 1 through 4
He has comments section open too but did not see him answer any questions there (yet)
Seems like he wants to stay being open sourced....
Ask him questions there!

Personally I think 6 individual N-S stator-poles at 60 degrees  are energized and then sequentially pulsed in rotation, and continued around flipping polariies every single "pole-segment" - so if 36 poles, this is every revolution 36 polarity changes and because so many polarity changes, this is where the big power is produced....also this is done with that overlapping sequence as Pierre outlined in his circuit  drawing...
Now why is it so overunity is the very interesting and unique winding pattern, which puts backemf and lenz law forces to work reinforcing the power produced, not cancelling it...
I will guess really not much "flyback" energy is produced from the diodes and the reason for the all the recovery diodes is just to protect the electronics more than anything...(could be wrong and this is lots and lots of energy recovered into cap banks - interesting experiment for Pierre would be to put this into 2nd cap bank see if it still loops just as long in time (forever)
Anyways this all my opininons nothing else, working looping models on bench would make it fact...

Big Question:
Were those "magic numbers" Pierre released a few weeks ago correct or was he mistaken??
Seems like now 1-7 etc etc is correct now looking at drawings and lots of analysis , not 1-6 as he put out...maybe this is for slots instead poles I don't know...




Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on March 31, 2018, 08:46:41 PM

Big Question:
Were those "magic numbers" Pierre released a few weeks ago correct or was he mistaken??
Seems like now 1-7 etc etc is correct now looking at drawings and lots of analysis , not 1-6 as he put out...maybe this is for slots instead poles I don't know...

Pierre did not make a mistake
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on March 31, 2018, 09:04:36 PM
5 Hz
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on March 31, 2018, 09:09:37 PM
Does anyone know what is that orange sheet at the internal of the stator? I thought it was paint but now looks more like a sheet of something.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 31, 2018, 09:14:25 PM
L'interrupteur 1 haut est fermé (S1H).
L'interrupteur S7L est fermé.
Le courant circule de L1 à L6. D'ACCORD.

Quelqu'un pourrait dire quelle est la prochaine étape quand le programme Arduino envoie un second digitalWrite pour fermer d'autres commutateurs ?




Switch 1 high is closed( S1H).
Switch S7L is closed.
Current flows through L1  to L6. OK.

Somedbody could tell what is the next step when the Arduino program send a second digitalWrite to close some more switches ?


si j'ai bien compris ,l'étape suivante sera :
S2H fermé et S8L fermé, (note à ce moment L1 et L7 sont en court circuit pendant le temps de la transition) .puis alors S1H et S6L seront ouvert ,le champ est donc décalé d'un pas ;puis ca continue
 selon le même principe

EN:if I understand correctly, the next step will be: S2H closed and S8L closed, (note at this time L1 and L7 are in short circuit during the transition time) .Then S1H and S6L will be open, the field is shifted by one step, then it continues  according to the same principle
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 09:33:22 PM
Attached is a scope shot showing voltage and current across 6 coils in series (25mH) total. 30 slot stator 36 turn 22AWG coils.

Using the half bridge parallel arrangement i.e. OUT 1& 2 tied together In1 & In2 tied together.

Nearly 4A peak at 31VDC applied. Of course if you slow down the pulse rate the pulses become square and more current is drawn.

The L298N's I have don't have any heatsink compound between the device and heatsink.
Placing some compound between improved the heat  dissipation but after several minutes at this current  raised the temperature to 80deg C and climbing, so either more heatsink area or forced cooling required.

To get these current pulses to square up at say a 1ms period more rail voltage is required.

I have 1 BTN7960 board coming, I will test this but the board is limited to 28V however, the RDS on for the MOSFET's used in the device is reasonable and will reduce volt drop across the half bridge, therefore increasing current through the coils.

Regards

L192


 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 09:41:19 PM
This shot is monitoring the current into the board, from the DC supply, same period as before approx.

The negative going portion of current is that returned to the supply.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 09:49:39 PM
Stator and rotor used for testing.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on March 31, 2018, 09:50:15 PM

si j'ai bien compris ,l'étape suivante sera :
S2H fermé et S8L fermé, (note à ce moment L1 et L7 sont en court circuit pendant le temps de la transition) .puis alors L1H et L6L seront ouvert ,le champ est donc décalé d'un pas ;puis ca continue
 selon le même principe

EN:
if I understand correctly, the next step will be: S2H closed and S8L closed, (note at this time L1 and L7 are in short circuit during the transition time) .Then L1H and L6L will be open, the field is shifted by one step, then it continues  according to the same principle

L7L et non L6L. Ok dans ce cas les bobines sont courtcircuitées pendant un délai complet du programme (plusieurs millisecondes).
C'est peut-être une des clés:
- l'inductance totale est changée de L1 à L6 pour L2 à L6
- on obtient peut-être un gros BEMF quand les courcircuits sont relâchés. Konehead pourrait nous en dire plus là dessus.

L7L not L6L. Ok that means that coils are shorted during one delay time (several milliseconds). May be it's the key :
- the total inductance is reduced from L1 to L6 to L2 to L6
- We get a big BEMF when releasing these shorts. Konehead could tell us more about that.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 10:16:56 PM
My code attached. No refinements or attempts to reduce lines.
Not tested yet.
I have another version for a 36 slot stator, as I have a 10KW motor coming my way.

Regards

L192


// L192 March 2018
// 30 slot stator


const int Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25 = 37;   
const int Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26 = 38;   
const int Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27 = 39;   
const int Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28 = 40;   
const int Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29 =41;   
const int Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30 =42;   
const int Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1 =43;   
const int Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2 =44;   
const int Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3 =45;   
const int Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4 =46;   

   



void setup() {
  // initialize digital pin 1-30 as an output.

 pinMode(1, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(2, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(3, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(4, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(5, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(6, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(7,OUTPUT);
 pinMode(8, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(9, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(10, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(11, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(12, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(13, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(14,OUTPUT);
 pinMode(15, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(16, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(17, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(18, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(19, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(20, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(21, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(22, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(23,OUTPUT);
 pinMode(24, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(25, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(26, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(27, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(28, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(29, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(30,OUTPUT);
   
 //initialize pins 37-46 as an output   
pinMode (Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4,OUTPUT);   
   
}

int x = 0;


void loop(){
 //int y= analogRead(0); // read pot  use this if you want or set x manually
 // x= map(y,0,1000 ,1,100);
x=1000;

// sequencing 30 coils 5 slot pitch previous coil stays on until next coil is on
  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH); //top switches   
  digitalWrite(5,LOW), digitalWrite(15,LOW), digitalWrite(25,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25,HIGH); //enable all switches in group setting output
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // top switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite(6,LOW), digitalWrite(16,LOW), digitalWrite(26,LOW); // bottom switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite(Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26,HIGH); //enable all switches in group setting output
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25,LOW); //disable all switches in group 1 OFF
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH);   // top swtches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite(7,LOW), digitalWrite(17,LOW), digitalWrite(27,LOW);   // bottom switches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite(Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27,HIGH); //enable all switches in group setting output
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26,LOW); //disable all switches in group 2 OFF
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(8,LOW), digitalWrite(18,LOW), digitalWrite(28,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(9,LOW), digitalWrite(19,LOW), digitalWrite(29,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(10,LOW), digitalWrite(20,LOW), digitalWrite(30,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(11,LOW), digitalWrite(21,LOW), digitalWrite(1,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(12,LOW), digitalWrite(22,LOW), digitalWrite(2,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(13,LOW), digitalWrite(23,LOW), digitalWrite(3,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(14,LOW), digitalWrite(24,LOW), digitalWrite(4,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4,LOW); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on March 31, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
Cheors,

j'ai édité et corriger mon poste

S1H et S6L au lieu de L1H et L6L ,
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on March 31, 2018, 10:51:40 PM
This shot shows the flux (blue) waveform between Stator and rotor.

Current in yellow.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 01, 2018, 12:35:07 AM
Stator and rotor used for testing.

L192

That looks like an excellent wiring job L192.
Can you post a front few picture (like below) with rotor in place.
Thanks for sharing your great work
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2018, 04:15:11 AM
My code attached. No refinements or attempts to reduce lines.
Not tested yet.
I have another version for a 36 slot stator, as I have a 10KW motor coming my way.

Regards

L192


// L192 March 2018
// 30 slot stator


const int Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25 = 37;   
const int Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26 = 38;   
const int Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27 = 39;   
const int Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28 = 40;   
const int Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29 =41;   
const int Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30 =42;   
const int Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1 =43;   
const int Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2 =44;   
const int Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3 =45;   
const int Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4 =46;   

   



void setup() {
  // initialize digital pin 1-30 as an output.

 pinMode(1, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(2, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(3, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(4, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(5, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(6, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(7,OUTPUT);
 pinMode(8, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(9, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(10, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(11, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(12, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(13, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(14,OUTPUT);
 pinMode(15, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(16, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(17, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(18, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(19, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(20, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(21, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(22, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(23,OUTPUT);
 pinMode(24, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(25, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(26, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(27, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(28, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(29, OUTPUT);
 pinMode(30,OUTPUT);
   
 //initialize pins 37-46 as an output   
pinMode (Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3,OUTPUT);   
pinMode (Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4,OUTPUT);   
   
}

int x = 0;


void loop(){
 //int y= analogRead(0); // read pot  use this if you want or set x manually
 // x= map(y,0,1000 ,1,100);
x=1000;

// sequencing 30 coils 5 slot pitch previous coil stays on until next coil is on
  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH); //top switches   
  digitalWrite(5,LOW), digitalWrite(15,LOW), digitalWrite(25,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25,HIGH); //enable all switches in group setting output
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // top switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite(6,LOW), digitalWrite(16,LOW), digitalWrite(26,LOW); // bottom switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite(Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26,HIGH); //enable all switches in group setting output
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_1_11_21_5_15_25,LOW); //disable all switches in group 1 OFF
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH);   // top swtches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite(7,LOW), digitalWrite(17,LOW), digitalWrite(27,LOW);   // bottom switches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite(Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27,HIGH); //enable all switches in group setting output
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_2_12_22_6_16_26,LOW); //disable all switches in group 2 OFF
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(8,LOW), digitalWrite(18,LOW), digitalWrite(28,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_3_13_23_7_17_27,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(9,LOW), digitalWrite(19,LOW), digitalWrite(29,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_4_14_24_8_18_28,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(10,LOW), digitalWrite(20,LOW), digitalWrite(30,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_5_15_25_9_19_29,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(11,LOW), digitalWrite(21,LOW), digitalWrite(1,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_6_16_26_10_20_30,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(12,LOW), digitalWrite(22,LOW), digitalWrite(2,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_7_17_27_11_21_1,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(13,LOW), digitalWrite(23,LOW), digitalWrite(3,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_8_18_28_12_22_2,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
 
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(14,LOW), digitalWrite(24,LOW), digitalWrite(4,LOW);   // bottom switches
  digitalWrite(Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4,HIGH); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_9_19_29_13_23_3,LOW); //disable all switches in group
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(Enable_10_20_30_14_24_4,LOW); //enable all switches in group
  delay(x);

Ah... OK.... But...

1. Your code doesn't compile, because of a minor error: you left off the closing curly bracket in loop(). Once this is fixed the code compiles and runs... But...

2. There is a timing irregularity. This was also there in the original sketch Pierre proposed and I don't recall ever getting a straight answer about whether this was intentional on his part (the "Secret") or a mistake (the "bug"). At any rate it interferes with the smooth flow of the fields around the stator. To be specific, there are two "delay" intervals between "Enable_1x, HIGH" and "Enable_1x, LOW" and also between "Enable_10x, HIGH" and "Enable_10x, LOW", whereas there are three "delay" intervals between all the other "Enable_" HIGH and LOW statements. If this is intentional, fine, but it would be nice to know why.

3. It is far better IMHO (for debugging and actual running, since the desired loop speed is so low) to include setting the "delay" interval value each time it is used, via the potentiometer, rather than setting it once per loop. So I'd recommend replacing each "delay(x)" statement with "delay(map(analogRead(A0), 0, 1023, 0, 100))" so that the speed can be set without having to wait for the loop to finish. This adds some tiny microseconds to the execution time but compared to the "60 Hz" output speed this is insignificant.

4. In my testing it looks like this code has several more "overlaps" than previous versions. That is, instead of just two LEDs lit at any time, this has groups of 5 or 6 chasing around. My test board doesn't have all 30 LED positions populated though; I am only looking at the first "thirdrant" of the complete circle (Pins 1 - 12) , so I'm not seeing the full picture in my hardware test.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 01, 2018, 05:41:18 AM
To shed some more light on the coil winding pattern from Pierre, I went back to my old post:

For Pierre's case, I think we need to get clarification from him how exactly he has wound the stator. What I assumed in my latest simulations is that a coil runs over 7 slots and the next coil is in the neighboring slot (see my number sequence above).

01-07 08-14 15-21 22-28 29-35 36-06
07-13 14-20 21-27 28-34 35-05 06-12
13-19 20-26 27-33 34-04 05-11 12-18
19-25 26-32 33-03 04-10 11-17 18-24
25-31 32-02 03-09 10-16 17-23 24-30
31-01 02-08 09-05 16-22 23-29 30-36

36 coils total, so he could be using this winding configuration. The magnetic field pattern is attached (7SlotCoilSpan).

Yet he could also have done it like this: spanning 7 slots and have the neighboring coils in the same slot, then he would get the following sequence:

01-07 07-13 13-19 19-25 25-31 31-01
02-08 08-14 14-20 20-26 26-32 32-02
03-09 09-15 15-21 21-27 27-33 33-03
04-10 10-16 16-22 22-28 28-34 34-04
05-11 11-17 17-23 23-29 29-35 35-05
06-12 12-18 18-24 24-30 30-36 36-06

This actually yields the same coil configuration as the previous configuration (yet in different order, but that doesn't matter).
So again, 36 total coils, so he could be using this configuration.

So let's look now at a coil span of 6 slots instead of 7:

01-06 07-12 13-18 19-24 25-30 31-36
02-07 08-13 14-19 20-25 26-31 32-01
03-08 09-14 15-20 21-26 27-32 33-02
04-09 10-15 16-21 22-27 28-33 34-03
05-10 11-16 17-22 23-28 29-34 35-04
06-11 12-17 18-23 24-29 30-35 36-05

Again 2 coils per slot and 36 coils total, so he could be using this as well. I note that his one has his magic number sequence 01-06 ; 02-07; 03-08, etc. see post #170. For the magnetic field, see the attached image (6SlotCoilSpan).

Let's see if he could have done it like this: spanning 6 slots and have the neighboring coils in the same slot, then he would get the following sequence:

01-06 06-11 11-16 16-21 21-26 26-31 31-36
36-04 04-09 09-14 14-19 19-24 24-29 29-34
34-03 03-08 08-13 13-18 18-23 23-28 28-33
33-02 02-07 07-12 12-17 17-22 22-27 27-32
32-01

However this only gives 29 coils, so he can't have used this.

Someone should ask him what he is using.

PmgR

====
* Truthfulness * Compassion * Forbearance * www.falundafa.org (http://www.falundafa.org)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2018, 09:27:54 AM
I've "massaged" listener191's code a little bit to get rid of the timing glitch (assuming it is unintentional), fix an error in comments, add the realtime speed control, etc.

I haven't been able to figure out how to compress the 10 coil-actuation statement sets into a single loop yet, but I'm sure it can be done.

Please, Stefan or moderators... can you enable the "code" BBTag?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


/**********************************

   L192 March 2018
   30 slot stator
   
   massaged by TK:
   -- timing irregularity fixed
   -- for loop added
   -- Enable[] group array added
   -- Speed adjust real-time added



**********************************/
const int Enable[] = { 37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46 };  // Enable pins for coil groups 1-10

/*
Enable[1] group controls coils _1_11_21_5_15_25 
Enable[2] group controls coils _2_12_22_6_16_26   
Enable[3] group controls coils _3_13_23_7_17_27 
Enable[4] group controls coils _4_14_24_8_18_28 
Enable[5] group controls coils _5_15_25_9_19_29
Enable[6] group controls coils _6_16_26_10_20_30
Enable[7] group controls coils _7_17_27_11_21_1
Enable[8] group controls coils _8_18_28_12_22_2
Enable[9] group controls coils _9_19_29_13_23_3
Enable[10] group controls coils _10_20_30_14_24_4
*/

int pincounter = 1;
int index = 1;
int maxDelay = 100;  // set maximum delay interval in milliseconds here

void setup() {
  // initialize digital pin 1-30 as an output.
 for (pincounter = 1; pincounter < 31; pincounter ++) {
 pinMode(pincounter, OUTPUT);
 }
 pinMode(A0, INPUT);
}

void loop() {

  // sequencing 30 coils 5 slot pitch previous coil stays on until next coil is on
  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH); //top switches   
  digitalWrite(5,LOW), digitalWrite(15,LOW), digitalWrite(25,LOW);    // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[1], HIGH); // enable all switches in group 1
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[10],LOW);  // disable all switches in group 10
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));
 
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // top switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite(6,LOW), digitalWrite(16,LOW), digitalWrite(26,LOW);    // bottom switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite (Enable[2], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 2
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[1], LOW);  // disable all switches in group 1
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // top switches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite(7,LOW), digitalWrite(17,LOW), digitalWrite(27,LOW);    // bottom switches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite (Enable[3], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 3
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[2],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 2
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH);  // top switches
  digitalWrite(8,LOW), digitalWrite(18,LOW), digitalWrite(28,LOW);     // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[4], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 4
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[3],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 3
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);  // top switches
  digitalWrite(9,LOW), digitalWrite(19,LOW), digitalWrite(29,LOW);     // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[5], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 5
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[4],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 4
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH);  // top switches
  digitalWrite(10,LOW), digitalWrite(20,LOW), digitalWrite(30,LOW);    // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[6],HIGH); // enable all switches in group 6
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[5],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 5
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(11,LOW), digitalWrite(21,LOW), digitalWrite(1,LOW);      // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[7],HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 7
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[6],LOW);  // disable all switches in group 6
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(12,LOW), digitalWrite(22,LOW), digitalWrite(2,LOW);      // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[8],HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 8
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[7],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 7
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(13,LOW), digitalWrite(23,LOW), digitalWrite(3,LOW);      // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[9],HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 9
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[8],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 8
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(14,LOW), digitalWrite(24,LOW), digitalWrite(4,LOW);     // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[10],HIGH); // enable all switches in group 10
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[9],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 9
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 }
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 09:29:07 AM
To shed some more light on the coil winding pattern from Pierre, I went back to my old post:

For Pierre's case, I think we need to get clarification from him how exactly he has wound the stator. What I assumed in my latest simulations is that a coil runs over 7 slots and the next coil is in the neighboring slot (see my number sequence above).

01-07 08-14 15-21 22-28 29-35 36-06
07-13 14-20 21-27 28-34 35-05 06-12
13-19 20-26 27-33 34-04 05-11 12-18
19-25 26-32 33-03 04-10 11-17 18-24
25-31 32-02 03-09 10-16 17-23 24-30
31-01 02-08 09-05 16-22 23-29 30-36

36 coils total, so he could be using this winding configuration. The magnetic field pattern is attached (7SlotCoilSpan).

Yet he could also have done it like this: spanning 7 slots and have the neighboring coils in the same slot, then he would get the following sequence:

01-07 07-13 13-19 19-25 25-31 31-01
02-08 08-14 14-20 20-26 26-32 32-02
03-09 09-15 15-21 21-27 27-33 33-03
04-10 10-16 16-22 22-28 28-34 34-04
05-11 11-17 17-23 23-29 29-35 35-05
06-12 12-18 18-24 24-30 30-36 36-06

This actually yields the same coil configuration as the previous configuration (yet in different order, but that doesn't matter).
So again, 36 total coils, so he could be using this configuration.

So let's look now at a coil span of 6 slots instead of 7:

01-06 07-12 13-18 19-24 25-30 31-36
02-07 08-13 14-19 20-25 26-31 32-01
03-08 09-14 15-20 21-26 27-32 33-02
04-09 10-15 16-21 22-27 28-33 34-03
05-10 11-16 17-22 23-28 29-34 35-04
06-11 12-17 18-23 24-29 30-35 36-05

Again 2 coils per slot and 36 coils total, so he could be using this as well. I note that his one has his magic number sequence 01-06 ; 02-07; 03-08, etc. see post #170. For the magnetic field, see the attached image (6SlotCoilSpan).

Let's see if he could have done it like this: spanning 6 slots and have the neighboring coils in the same slot, then he would get the following sequence:

01-06 06-11 11-16 16-21 21-26 26-31 31-36
36-04 04-09 09-14 14-19 19-24 24-29 29-34
34-03 03-08 08-13 13-18 18-23 23-28 28-33
33-02 02-07 07-12 12-17 17-22 22-27 27-32
32-01

However this only gives 29 coils, so he can't have used this.

Someone should ask him what he is using.

PmgR

====
* Truthfulness * Compassion * Forbearance * www.falundafa.org (http://www.falundafa.org)

Hi PmgR,

This was posted a few posts back.

Shows Pierre's coil pitch was 6 slots, so I favour..

01-06 07-12 13-18 19-24 25-30 31-36
02-07 08-13 14-19 20-25 26-31 32-01
03-08 09-14 15-20 21-26 27-32 33-02
04-09 10-15 16-21 22-27 28-33 34-03
05-10 11-16 17-22 23-28 29-34 35-04
06-11 12-17 18-23 24-29 30-35 36-05


Regards

L192
(http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/dlattach/attach/167187/image//)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 01, 2018, 09:33:29 AM
Pierre connection:

simple connection 2 coils together.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 10:00:26 AM
Regarding the L298N temperature rise.

In the test I conducted, I was using the high side transistor pair of OUT1&2 and  the low side transistor pair of OUT3&4, so both half bridges of the L298N were in conduction.
If you move the low switch to another board, then you change the thermal duty cycle of the device, as both half bridges will not be in conduction.

Although the device die is rated to 130 deg C, I would not want to run the heat sinked device over 75deg C, as thermal shutdown occurs some where between 80-85 deg C. 

I set up a test with a 1 in 6 pulse duty cycle, with the high side and low side switches on different boards. 4A peak was achieved with a 38 deg C temp on the heatsink continuous running..so this is the way to go.

Another point ..the high side switch appears to be dropping about 8V at 4A and the low side switch about 4V. MOSFET's would not have this problem .

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 10:45:31 AM
That looks like an excellent wiring job L192.
Can you post a front few picture (like below) with rotor in place.
Thanks for sharing your great work
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

Here is an end shot of the stator and rotor.

Note my coils are a little longer than I planned but they were wound for a 6 slot pitch in a slightly bigger stator.
I didnt want to wind up another set or spend time changing these so they would be tighter.

The rotor covers 9 poles, so induction will be over a wider range of arc.

You can see that more than 36T x 2 could have been packed in these slots, perhaps 46T.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Cherryman on April 01, 2018, 11:15:01 AM
TK, i think there is a minor mistake in your sketch.


Arrays are zero indexed, that is the first element of the array is at index 0 (zero)


Taken that in to account i changed your code a little.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


/**********************************

   L192 March 2018
   30 slot stator
   
   manicured by CM
   massaged by TK:
   -- timing irregularity fixed
   -- for loop added
   -- Enable[] group array added
   -- Speed adjust real-time added



**********************************/
const int Enable[] = { 37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46 };  // Enable pins for coil groups 1-10

/*
Enable[0] group controls coils _1_11_21_5_15_25 
Enable[1] group controls coils _2_12_22_6_16_26   
Enable[2] group controls coils _3_13_23_7_17_27 
Enable[3] group controls coils _4_14_24_8_18_28 
Enable[4] group controls coils _5_15_25_9_19_29
Enable[5] group controls coils _6_16_26_10_20_30
Enable[6] group controls coils _7_17_27_11_21_1
Enable[7] group controls coils _8_18_28_12_22_2
Enable[8] group controls coils _9_19_29_13_23_3
Enable[9] group controls coils _10_20_30_14_24_4
*/

int pincounter = 1;
int index = 1;
int maxDelay = 100;  // set maximum delay interval in milliseconds here

void setup() {
  // initialize digital pin 1-30 as an output.
 for (pincounter = 1; pincounter < 31; pincounter ++) {
 pinMode(pincounter, OUTPUT);
 }
 pinMode(A0, INPUT);
}

void loop() {

  // sequencing 30 coils 5 slot pitch previous coil stays on until next coil is on
  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH); //top switches   
  digitalWrite(5,LOW), digitalWrite(15,LOW), digitalWrite(25,LOW);    // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[0], HIGH); // enable all switches in group 1
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[9],LOW);  // disable all switches in group 10
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));
 
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // top switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite(6,LOW), digitalWrite(16,LOW), digitalWrite(26,LOW);    // bottom switches ON before 1 OFF
  digitalWrite (Enable[1], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 2
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[0], LOW);  // disable all switches in group 1
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH); // top switches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite(7,LOW), digitalWrite(17,LOW), digitalWrite(27,LOW);    // bottom switches ON before 2 OFF
  digitalWrite (Enable[2], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 3
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[1],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 2
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH);  // top switches
  digitalWrite(8,LOW), digitalWrite(18,LOW), digitalWrite(28,LOW);     // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[3], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 4
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[2],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 3
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(5,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);  // top switches
  digitalWrite(9,LOW), digitalWrite(19,LOW), digitalWrite(29,LOW);     // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[4], HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 5
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[3],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 4
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(6,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH);  // top switches
  digitalWrite(10,LOW), digitalWrite(20,LOW), digitalWrite(30,LOW);    // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[5],HIGH); // enable all switches in group 6
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[4],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 5
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(7,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(11,LOW), digitalWrite(21,LOW), digitalWrite(1,LOW);      // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[6],HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 7
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[5],LOW);  // disable all switches in group 6
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(8,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(12,LOW), digitalWrite(22,LOW), digitalWrite(2,LOW);      // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[7],HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 8
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[6],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 7
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(9,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);   // top switches
  digitalWrite(13,LOW), digitalWrite(23,LOW), digitalWrite(3,LOW);      // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[8],HIGH);  // enable all switches in group 9
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[7],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 8
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH); // top switches
  digitalWrite(14,LOW), digitalWrite(24,LOW), digitalWrite(4,LOW);     // bottom switches
  digitalWrite (Enable[9],HIGH); // enable all switches in group 10
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
  digitalWrite(Enable[8],LOW);   // disable all switches in group 9
  delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
 }

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 01, 2018, 11:26:46 AM
Right you are, thanks, so I've incorporated your correction into the current "looped" version here. I managed to compress the ten group switch sequences into one loop, I think. The performance looks the same on my test hardware as the unlooped version above.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



/**********************************
 *
 * L192 March 2018
 * 30 slot stator
 *
 * massaged by TK:
 * -- timing irregularity fixed
 * -- for loop added
 * -- Enable[] group array added
 * -- Speed adjust real-time added
 * -- groups looped
 *
 * --corrected by CM for array index
 *
 *
 **********************************/

const int Enable[] = { 37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46 };  // Enable pins for coil groups 1-10

/*
Enable[0] group controls coils _1_11_21_5_15_25 
 Enable[1] group controls coils _2_12_22_6_16_26   
 Enable[2] group controls coils _3_13_23_7_17_27 
 Enable[3] group controls coils _4_14_24_8_18_28 
 Enable[4] group controls coils _5_15_25_9_19_29
 Enable[5] group controls coils _6_16_26_10_20_30
 Enable[6] group controls coils _7_17_27_11_21_1
 Enable[7] group controls coils _8_18_28_12_22_2
 Enable[8] group controls coils _9_19_29_13_23_3
 Enable[9] group controls coils _10_20_30_14_24_4
 */

int pincounter = 1;
int index = 1;
int maxDelay = 500;  // set maximum delay interval in milliseconds here

void setup() {
  // initialize digital pin 1-30 as an output
  for (pincounter = 1; pincounter < 31; pincounter ++) {
    pinMode(pincounter, OUTPUT);
  }
  pinMode(A0, INPUT);
 // initialize digital pins in Enable[] as output
  for (index = 0; index <10; index ++){
    pinMode(Enable[index],OUTPUT);
  }
}

void loop() {
  for (index=1; index<11; index ++){
    digitalWrite(index,HIGH), digitalWrite(index+10,HIGH), digitalWrite(index+20,HIGH); //top switches   
    digitalWrite(index+4,LOW), digitalWrite(index+14,LOW), digitalWrite((index+24)%30,LOW);    // bottom switches
    digitalWrite (Enable[index-1], HIGH); // enable all switches in group 0
    delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));   // read speedpot and wait
    digitalWrite(Enable[(index+8)%10],LOW);  // disable all switches in group 9
    delay(map(analogRead(A0),0,1023,0,maxDelay));
  }
}
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Cherryman on April 01, 2018, 11:33:38 AM
That's a nice solution.


Although it compiles, i'm not sure about the following
You might want to look at the second last line of your code, the format differs from the first time you used it, it looks like typo's, but as it seems to work... i might be missing something.

digitalWrite (Enable[index-1], HIGH); // enable all switches in group 0
digitalWrite(Enable[(index+8)%10],LOW);  // disable all switches in group 9

And a little typo here i think?:

digitalWrite(index+4,LOW), digitalWrite(index+14,LOW), digitalWrite((index+24)%30,LOW);    // bottom switches


Or am i missing the function of the % ?  I'm not thát familiar with Arduino coding. Still learning myself.
Maybe it is the forum that changes it while copy-pasting? 



But my guess would be for the loop:



void loop()
{
  for (index = 1; index < 11; index ++)
 {
    digitalWrite (index, HIGH), digitalWrite(index + 10, HIGH), digitalWrite(index + 20, HIGH);           // top switches
    digitalWrite (index + 4, LOW), digitalWrite(index + 14, LOW), digitalWrite(index + 24, LOW);        // bottom switches
    digitalWrite (Enable[index - 1], HIGH);                                                                                      // enable all switches in group 0
    delay(map(analogRead(A0), 0, 1023, 0, maxDelay));                                                                 // read speedpot and wait
    digitalWrite (Enable[index + 8], LOW);                                                                                      // disable all switches in group 9
    delay(map(analogRead(A0), 0, 1023, 0, maxDelay));
  }
}
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 01, 2018, 12:00:47 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Here is an end shot of the stator and rotor.


Great skills great job L192!
What is your wire gauge?

Jeg

ps. TK/Cherryman nice work guys, thanks fore these programming lessons.  ;)

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 01, 2018, 12:26:47 PM
Possible relays Pierre
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 12:32:19 PM
Great skills great job L192!
What is your wire gauge?

Jeg

ps. TK/Cherryman nice work guys, thanks fore these programming lessons.  ;)


Hi Jeg,


I just checked and it 0.53mm which is 23AWG rated at about 5A continuous at a nominal temperature. The wire is is rated to 160 deg C, so it could be run beyond 5A.

 I had plenty of this gauge and also 0.8mm which is closer to 20AWG.

The slot CSA would accommodate 0.8mm however it would be tight getting the wire pass the pole ends.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 01, 2018, 02:45:53 PM

Hi Jeg,


I just checked and it 0.53mm which is 23AWG rated at about 5A continuous at a nominal temperature. The wire is is rated to 160 deg C, so it could be run beyond 5A.

 I had plenty of this gauge and also 0.8mm which is closer to 20AWG.

The slot CSA would accommodate 0.8mm however it would be tight getting the wire pass the pole ends.

Regards

L192

Thanks a lot for the info. I am to order some wire as i have plenty of 0.4mm which seems to be very thin for this job.
In the meanwhile, after some searching, and after balancing between cost and power characteristics, i ended up with transistors bd911/912 (http://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/bd911.pdf) for low and high side switches, and tip120 for driving them through my arduino. Total cost not over 60euros. If i was sure that mosfets can do the job, i would go with them even if i need nearly 120Euros for the boards.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 03:15:07 PM
This shot gives  an idea of what you get out on the rotor for 3A pk input on six aligned coils. There was a 25 Watt load on the rotor coils (230V winding on original generator).
4.5A obtained by bring the rail above 35V for a short period double the peak output voltage from 120V to 240V.

Of course the opposite 6 coils (opposite polarity) were not present so I would expect less induction. If they were present this would bring the output up to around 480V peak, assuming just over 3A through each set of coils.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 01, 2018, 05:56:03 PM
Hi Gotoluc,
Here is an end shot of the stator and rotor.

Thanks L192 for posting the picture

Note my coils are a little longer than I planned but they were wound for a 6 slot pitch in a slightly bigger stator.
I didnt want to wind up another set or spend time changing these so they would be tighter.

So from what I see and understand your coils are presently positioned in a 5 slot span but could be reused in longer 36 slot stator and positioned in a 6 slot span?

The rotor covers 9 poles, so induction will be over a wider range of arc.

If your stator has 6 poles and your pitch is 5 slots then I would think if your rotor core covers more then 4 of the T surfaces. then at all time you have 2 poles on each ends of your rotor core.
I think it would result in a very weak flux swing (change) in the rotor core and not induce much flux in the rotor coils?  Notice Pierre's rotor core (first pic) has only about 5 T surfaces coverage.

You can see that more than 36T x 2 could have been packed in these slots, perhaps 46T.
Regards
L192

Yes, I agree and I could of done the same to my stator which made me wonder why Pierre mentioned he had a hard time to fit the same wire gauge and turns I used in his  much larger stator. Something is not right!...  Have a look at the second picture of Pierre's stator. At 4 o'clock you can see the last winding (6 slot pitch) and behind it a bunch of wires away on the outer stator?... then at  5 o'clock a lager mass of wires which slowly reduces at 9 o'clock then starts to build back up again to 1 o'clock. Did you notice a large black wire at 12 o'clock?  I don't think we are building anything close to what Pierre demonstrated.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 01, 2018, 06:19:32 PM
Hi Luc
here is your quote:
"I don't think we are building anything close to what Pierre demonstrated"
(!!!!!!!)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 01, 2018, 07:01:42 PM
I have 1 BTN7960 board coming


Looks robust enough. I am curious to read your review on this.

Why are you using separate arduino output pins for driving the below switches while they can be driven by sharing the same input with their mate switch at the above row?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 01, 2018, 07:02:49 PM
Hi Luc
here is your quote:
"I don't think we are building anything close to what Pierre demonstrated"
(!!!!!!!)

Yes Doug, that's my quote for today!
Do you want me to call you?
Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 08:22:27 PM
Thanks L192 for posting the picture

So from what I see and understand your coils are presently positioned in a 5 slot span but could be reused in longer 36 slot stator and positioned in a 6 slot span?

If your stator has 6 poles and your pitch is 5 slots then I would think if your rotor core covers more then 4 of the T surfaces. then at all time you have 2 poles on each ends of your rotor core.
I think it would result in a very weak flux swing (change) in the rotor core and not induce much flux in the rotor coils?  Notice Pierre's rotor core (first pic) has only about 5 T surfaces coverage.

Yes, I agree and I could of done the same to my stator which made me wonder why Pierre mentioned he had a hard time to fit the same wire gauge and turns I used in his  much larger stator. Something is not right!...  Have a look at the second picture of Pierre's stator. At 4 o'clock you can see the last winding (6 slot pitch) and behind it a bunch of wires away on the outer stator?... then at  5 o'clock a lager mass of wires which slowly reduces at 9 o'clock then starts to build back up again to 1 o'clock. Did you notice a large black wire at 12 o'clock?  I don't think we are building anything close to what Pierre demonstrated.

Regards
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

36 slot stators have much less slot CSA than 30 slot stators, so I think he would have had a harder time. Also he may have been using thick nomex slot liners.

Mine are made with 0.13mm nomex which is a little thin for the job.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 08:26:30 PM
Looks robust enough. I am curious to read your review on this.

Why are you using separate arduino output pins for driving the below switches while they can be driven by sharing the same input with their mate switch at the above row?

Hi Jeg,

Yes I could do that, I just decided to keep full independent control for experimentation purposes.

Regards

L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 10:09:44 PM
Hi Everyone
Pierre just put his videos back up again on youtube parts 1 through 4
He has comments section open too but did not see him answer any questions there (yet)
Seems like he wants to stay being open sourced....
Ask him questions there!

Personally I think 6 individual N-S stator-poles at 60 degrees  are energized and then sequentially pulsed in rotation, and continued around flipping polariies every single "pole-segment" - so if 36 poles, this is every revolution 36 polarity changes and because so many polarity changes, this is where the big power is produced....also this is done with that overlapping sequence as Pierre outlined in his circuit  drawing...
Now why is it so overunity is the very interesting and unique winding pattern, which puts backemf and lenz law forces to work reinforcing the power produced, not cancelling it...
I will guess really not much "flyback" energy is produced from the diodes and the reason for the all the recovery diodes is just to protect the electronics more than anything...(could be wrong and this is lots and lots of energy recovered into cap banks - interesting experiment for Pierre would be to put this into 2nd cap bank see if it still loops just as long in time (forever)
Anyways this all my opininons nothing else, working looping models on bench would make it fact...

Big Question:
Were those "magic numbers" Pierre released a few weeks ago correct or was he mistaken??
Seems like now 1-7 etc etc is correct now looking at drawings and lots of analysis , not 1-6 as he put out...maybe this is for slots instead poles I don't know...



Hi Konehead,

See attached.

As area A (red) moves into registration with rotor, coil inductance increases rotor induction happens current flows in load and a counter flux is set up in the rotor and stator. The counterflux sees the high reluctance path offered by the stator path to the rotor however the counter flux sees a lower reluctance path (green) offered by the adjacent pole where the energizing  flux is in the same direction.

At this point this adjacent area is not in registration with the rotor, so induction is low and little counter flux is generated to oppose area A counter flux. It would have to be modeled to confirm this.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 01, 2018, 10:27:34 PM

Hi Jeg,


I just checked and it 0.53mm which is 23AWG rated at about 5A continuous at a nominal temperature. The wire is is rated to 160 deg C, so it could be run beyond 5A.

 I had plenty of this gauge and also 0.8mm which is closer to 20AWG.

The slot CSA would accommodate 0.8mm however it would be tight getting the wire pass the pole ends.

Regards

L192
L192, what is the resistance and inductance of one of your coils by itself (no rotor present).
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 01, 2018, 10:58:39 PM
L192, what is the resistance and inductance of one of your coils by itself (no rotor present).
PmgR

Hi PmgR,

Mine are all connected in series in  the loom, heat shrunk and tie wrapped, so it will be tomorrow before I can find an open place to break the loop.

I may have a spare coil which I can measure the resistance.

Regards

L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 02, 2018, 04:20:52 AM
L192, you can measure from one half of the stator to the other half of the stator. I believe you have 30slots, so you would be measuring two parallel strings of 15 inductors in series, so what you would measure would be 7.5*L and 7.5*R where R and L are for a single coil. So no need to disconnect anything. Just make sure the rotor is not in the stator.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 02, 2018, 08:07:00 AM
I think, that this generator work in fallowing way:
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: shylo on April 02, 2018, 10:35:10 AM
Pierre said that only six coils are on at a time, then the next six turn on just as the previous are turning off.
Doesn't that mean there could only be 3 coils at say 0 degrees, then 3 at 180 degrees?
3 at 0 degrees north, 3 at 180 degrees south?
Also the sleeve inside the motor housing, whats that for ,and what is it aluminium?
Thanks artv

also watch the first video where he inserts the magnets to show rotation, slow it down you see a very jerking motion
it seems to match up with the bulges of coils winds at 10 ,2, 4 and 8
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 02, 2018, 10:35:47 AM
L192, you can measure from one half of the stator to the other half of the stator. I believe you have 30slots, so you would be measuring two parallel strings of 15 inductors in series, so what you would measure would be 7.5*L and 7.5*R where R and L are for a single coil. So no need to disconnect anything. Just make sure the rotor is not in the stator.
PmgR

Hi PmgR,

Each coil is 1.42 ohms and 1.176mH  without rotor present in stator.

Regards
L192

 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 02, 2018, 10:44:30 AM
Pierre said that only six coils are on at a time, then the next six turn on just as the previous are turning off.
Doesn't that mean there could only be 3 coils at say 0 degrees, then 3 at 180 degrees?
3 at 0 degrees north, 3 at 180 degrees south?
Also the sleeve inside the motor housing, whats that for ,and what is it aluminium?
Thanks artv

Hi Shylo,

Pierre's diagram shows 6 coils energized in series for each pole, so that's 6 x 6 = 36 coils energized all the time.

Its the poles that rotate by changing the high side and low side switch pairs, in a one coil per step sequence, combined with a 1 coil overlap to ensure the magnetic field is never switched off.

Regards

L192 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 02, 2018, 11:34:55 AM
Pierre's diagram shows 6 coils energized in series for each pole, so that's 6 x 6 = 36 coils energized all the time.
Hi listener191,


I think 12 coils all the time for 36 coils stator.

section from 1 coil sets (6 coils)...
section from 2 coil sets (6 coils)...


1on
2on
3off
..

later

1off
2on
3on

=12 coils all the time.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 02, 2018, 11:53:11 AM
Hi listener191,


I think 12 coils all the time for 36 coils stator.

section from 1 coil sets (6 coils)...
section from 2 coil sets (6 coils)...


1on
2on
3off
..

later

1off
2on
3on

=12 coils all the time.

Hi r2fpl,

Look at the attached.

This is the point where Pierre is describing the pole transition problem.
It shows 6 transitions and you can only get this if all 36 coils are on.

Regards

L192
 


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 02, 2018, 12:10:38 PM
Hi r2fpl,

Look at the attached.

This is the point where Pierre is describing the pole transition problem.
It shows 6 transitions and you can only get this if all 36 coils are on.

Regards

L192

listener191,

You want to say that it is always 36 coils power on and only their polarization changes in 6 ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 02, 2018, 12:32:36 PM
Hi listener191,

I think 12 coils all the time for 36 coils stator.

section from 1 coil sets (6 coils)...
section from 2 coil sets (6 coils)...

1on
2on
3off
..

later

1off
2on
3on

=12 coils all the time.

Hello r2fpl,

yes, always 36, just the magnetic fields rotation, according to the game of commutations. Look again : https://goo.gl/zAW2Ge (https://goo.gl/zAW2Ge)


FR
oui, toujours 36, juste la rotation des champs magnétiques avec le jeu des commutations. Regardez à nouveau : https://goo.gl/zAW2Ge (https://goo.gl/zAW2Ge)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 02, 2018, 01:02:49 PM
When the coil shortening takes place, high spike's many kVolt in BOTH plus and minus direction occurs!
FR/   Lorsque le raccourcissement de la bobine a lieu, de nombreux kVolt de la pointe haute dans les deux sens plus et moins se produit!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 02, 2018, 01:18:17 PM
Look again : https://goo.gl/zAW2Ge (https://goo.gl/zAW2Ge)

Video problem.


See animation (gif) by oscar:
http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/msg519284/#msg519284
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 02, 2018, 01:30:50 PM
Red = Down Orange = Up  The non connected diodes in opposite direction! FR/  Les diodes non connectées dans la direction opposée!

If I decrease the coupling Factor in the coil array more or less a Transformer the higher the spikes goes!

FR/   Si je diminue le facteur de couplage dans le réseau de bobines plus ou moins un transformateur, plus les pointes sont hautes!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 02, 2018, 04:42:48 PM
The consequence of the above discovered situation in my previous post.
 Depending of the coil connection situation// connection to Plus, or connection to Minus. The H-Bridge has to be protected with some VOLTAGE limiters both ways!

FR/   La conséquence de la situation découverte ci-dessus dans mon post précédent.
 Selon la situation de connexion de la bobine  // connexion à Plus, ou connexion à Minus. Le H-Bridge doit être protégé avec des limiteurs de VOLTAGE dans les deux sens!

Why were Pierre's diodes only connected to the plus rail? FR/   Pourquoi les diodes de Pierre étaient-elles uniquement connectées au rail plus?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on April 02, 2018, 06:59:42 PM
Hi gotoluc, in regard to your 'all is one' thread.
Thank you for sharing, that seed of information is very helpful for many.
I love you without condition.
peace love light
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 02, 2018, 07:52:38 PM
Hi gotoluc, in regard to your 'all is one' thread.
Thank you for sharing, that seed of information is very helpful for many.
I love you without condition.
peace love light

Thanks SkyWatcher123
My reply: http://overunity.com/17663/all-is-one-and-not-how-you-perceive-it-tout-est-un-et-non-comment-tu-le-perois/msg519316/#new (http://overunity.com/17663/all-is-one-and-not-how-you-perceive-it-tout-est-un-et-non-comment-tu-le-perois/msg519316/#new)

If anyone would like to contribute or ask positive questions, post here as SkyWatcher123 did.
Posts here will then be deleted in 24 hours.  I'm sure all understand why the topic needs to stay in visual mode only.

Fr. Si quelqu'un souhaite contribuer ou poser des questions positives, postez ici comme SkyWatcher123 l'a fait.
Les messages ici seront ensuite supprimés dans les 24 heures. Je suis sûr que tous comprennent pourquoi le sujet doit rester en mode visuel seulement.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 02, 2018, 09:44:52 PM
I analyze first set relays works:

transistor count from bottom right, relay label number

1 -   1,14
13 - 25,38
16 - 39,52
18 - 41,54

for first sets: (blue leds: 1,2,11,13,23,24) ->(labels relays 1,14,16,18,25,27,38,42,49,51,62,71)

When get 1-1,14 ok
13- 25,38 ok
... ok

When get first set 1,2,11,13,23,24 where is logical ?  How counts correctly ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 02, 2018, 09:51:58 PM

Why were Pierre's diodes only connected to the plus rail?
How I draw, it colects Back EMF. And minus also gose to minus of supercaps.
In Half Bridge, of Full bridge topology BACK EMF always go to input source. On All Electric bikes motors and all DC BLDC motors also back EMF gose to input source thourth mosfet internal diodes. So no be Hight VOLTAGE spikes!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 02, 2018, 10:23:46 PM
How I draw, it colects Back EMF. And minus also gose to minus of supercaps.
In Half Bridge, of Full bridge topology BACK EMF always go to input source. On All Electric bikes motors and all DC BLDC motors also back EMF gose to input source thourth mosfet internal diodes. So no be Hight VOLTAGE spikes!

If the transistor has a diode inside.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 03, 2018, 12:17:19 AM
Why were ALL (if I'm right?) Pierre's diodes only connected to the plus rail if it occurs negative spikes also?
 
MenofFather: Pierre used Relays not H-bridges or Fets.

I'm not using H-bridges, but the building guys here. So take care of the spikes!

Pourquoi toutes les diodes de Pierre (si j'ai raison!?) Sont connectées au rail plus si des pointes négatives se produisent également?
MenofFather: Pierre a utilisé des relais non H-ponts ou Fets.
Je n'utilise pas de ponts en H, mais les gars du bâtiment ici. Dus pas op de pointes!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 03, 2018, 02:17:46 AM
I analyze first set relays works:

transistor count from bottom right, relay label number

1 -   1,14
13 - 25,38
16 - 39,52
18 - 41,54

for first sets: (blue leds: 1,2,11,13,23,24) ->(labels relays 1,14,16,18,25,27,38,42,49,51,62,71)

When get 1-1,14 ok
13- 25,38 ok
... ok

When get first set 1,2,11,13,23,24 where is logical ?  How counts correctly ?
Take a look at the attached image. It outlines the various relays that are on at the same time.


Transistor 1 (T1) controls relays 1-14
T2 controls 3 and 16
T3 controls 5 and 18
...
T13 controls 25 and 38
....
T16 controls 31 and 44
...
T18 controls 35 and 48
...
T20 controls 39 and 52
...
T25 controls 49 and 62,
etc.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 03, 2018, 06:16:03 AM
3 days ago I sent a message to Pierre asking him to confirm if his coils are powered in series. I've just received a reply from him which I translated and below is his original French message.

Fr. Il y a 3 jours j'ai envoyé un message à Pierre lui demandant de confirmer si ses bobines sont alimentées en série. Je viens de recevoir une réponse de lui que j'ai traduite et ci-dessous est son message original en français.

in my assembly there is 6 coils in series except that there is one that I feed for a fraction of a second so not to lose the magnetic field, so it leaves me with 5 coils operating in reality, example: 1 and 2 are powered by the positive and then 1 goes off to allow the magnetic flux to move etc. So in your case (Pierre is referring to my 30 slot) there should be 4 coils operating using the program I gave you which is good. The only thing I may of modified is the value x and y and played a bit with the speed. Everybody is making too much of a deal with the frequency. I already mentioned that the frequency meter may not of been correct. We can see all the uneven switching noise on the oscilloscope which affected the frequency meter. I adjust the potentiometer but most likely the frequency meter did not read the right frequency. Instead of having a discussion on frequency, people should be working on rotating the magnetic field. Then they can start playing with frequency and increase it to the desired speed.

Fr.
dans mon montage il y a 6 bobine en série sauf qu'il y a une que j'alimente pendant une fraction de seconde pour ne pas perdre le champ magnétique donc il me reste 5 bobine en fonction en réalité ex:1 et 2 sont alimenté par le positif et  puis 1 s'éteint pour déplacé le flux magnétique ainsi de suite dans votre cas il devrait  rester 4 bobine en fonction  en passant le programme que je vous ai donner est bon la seul chose que j'ai peut être modifier est la valeur x et y j'ai jouer un peut avec la vitesse et puis le monde s'en font vraiment trop pour la fréquence ,j'ai déjà mentionner que le fréquence de mon meter n'a peut-être pas  la bonne valeur avec  ce que j'ai vue a l'ociloscope  a cause des parasite la fréquence était anarchique j'ai ajuster le potentiometre mais il se peut que le fréquence meter n'a pas lue la bonne fréquence  avant de  parler de fréquence il devrait se concentrer par faire tourné le champ magnétique après ils pourront s'amuser avec la fréquence il suffit juste d'augmenter a la vitesse désirer
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 03, 2018, 06:21:31 AM
Also received this message  Today at 02:57:56 AM (Forum time)

Fr. également reçu ce message

I just saw the plan on the last page and it's pretty close to reality to keep the magnetic field moving

Fr. je vient de voir le plan a la dernière page et cela est assez  proche de la réalité pour faire bouger le champ magnétique
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 03, 2018, 08:40:02 AM
gotoluc:

Can you ask Pierre if all the coils have the same amount of wire or are they the same.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 03, 2018, 08:42:19 AM
Take a look at the attached image. It outlines the various relays that are on at the same time.


Transistor 1 (T1) controls relays 1-14
T2 controls 3 and 16
T3 controls 5 and 18
...
T13 controls 25 and 38
....
T16 controls 31 and 44
...
T18 controls 35 and 48
...
T20 controls 39 and 52
...
T25 controls 49 and 62,
etc.
PmgR


Yes,

led      relay
1   1   14
2   3   16
3   5   18
4   7   20
5   9   22
6   11   24
7   13   26
8   15   28
9   17   30
10   19   32
11   21   34
12   23   36
13   25   38  (led TOP/upper)
14   27   40  (led TOP/bottom)
15   29   42
16   31   44
17   33   46
18   35   48
19   37   50
20   39   52
21   41   54
22   43   56
23   45   58
24   47   60
25   49   62
26   51   64
27   53   66
28   55   68
29   57   70
30   59   72
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 03, 2018, 12:16:51 PM
If the transistor has a diode inside.
All strong transistors-mosfets have diode inside!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 03, 2018, 12:18:29 PM
Why were ALL (if I'm right?) Pierre's diodes only connected to the plus rail if it occurs negative spikes also?
 
MenofFather: Pierre used Relays not H-bridges or Fets.


Because he and use diodes! Because relays not have integrated diodes, i think.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2018, 12:36:00 PM
3 days ago I sent a message to Pierre asking him to confirm if his coils are powered in series. I've just received a reply from him which I translated and below is his original French message.

Fr. Il y a 3 jours j'ai envoyé un message à Pierre lui demandant de confirmer si ses bobines sont alimentées en série. Je viens de recevoir une réponse de lui que j'ai traduite et ci-dessous est son message original en français.

in my assembly there is 6 coils in series except that there is one that I feed for a fraction of a second so not to lose the magnetic field, so it leaves me with 5 coils operating in reality, example: 1 and 2 are powered by the positive and then 1 goes off to allow the magnetic flux to move etc. So in your case (Pierre is referring to my 30 slot) there should be 4 coils operating using the program I gave you which is good. The only thing I may of modified is the value x and y and played a bit with the speed. Everybody is making too much of a deal with the frequency. I already mentioned that the frequency meter may not of been correct. We can see all the uneven switching noise on the oscilloscope which affected the frequency meter. I adjust the potentiometer but most likely the frequency meter did not read the right frequency. Instead of having a discussion on frequency, people should be working on rotating the magnetic field. Then they can start playing with frequency and increase it to the desired speed.

Fr.
dans mon montage il y a 6 bobine en série sauf qu'il y a une que j'alimente pendant une fraction de seconde pour ne pas perdre le champ magnétique donc il me reste 5 bobine en fonction en réalité ex:1 et 2 sont alimenté par le positif et  puis 1 s'éteint pour déplacé le flux magnétique ainsi de suite dans votre cas il devrait  rester 4 bobine en fonction  en passant le programme que je vous ai donner est bon la seul chose que j'ai peut être modifier est la valeur x et y j'ai jouer un peut avec la vitesse et puis le monde s'en font vraiment trop pour la fréquence ,j'ai déjà mentionner que le fréquence de mon meter n'a peut-être pas  la bonne valeur avec  ce que j'ai vue a l'ociloscope  a cause des parasite la fréquence était anarchique j'ai ajuster le potentiometre mais il se peut que le fréquence meter n'a pas lue la bonne fréquence  avant de  parler de fréquence il devrait se concentrer par faire tourné le champ magnétique après ils pourront s'amuser avec la fréquence il suffit juste d'augmenter a la vitesse désirer

Has there been another Arduino program received from Pierre? Because the one I saw and analyzed does not appear to do this.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 03, 2018, 01:52:56 PM
Has there been another Arduino program received from Pierre? Because the one I saw and analyzed does not appear to do this.

Hi TinselKoala,

These lines in Pierre's original code, as an example for the first and second coils support an overlap.

 digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(1,LOW),  digitalWrite(13,LOW),  digitalWrite(25,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 03, 2018, 02:20:44 PM
Extensive running of L298N half bridges (parallel transistors) at 4A into one set of 6 coils, resulted in a device failure.

The running temperature was only 40 deg C for the high side switch.

4A into two sets of 5 coils via one source and one sink half bridge, for my 30 slot stator, would likely be a minimum for me, so I think the L298N will prove not fit for purpose.

I want to evaluate the BTN7960 board carefully, as the relatively low rail voltage limit of 28V may be limiting if the clock rate is raised to say a 1ms period, as higher voltage will be required to get the current rise within the period.


Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 03, 2018, 02:33:12 PM
Why were Pierre's diodes only connected to the plus rail? FR/   Pourquoi les diodes de Pierre étaient-elles uniquement connectées au rail plus?

Because he made a mistake when drawing. That simple. One diode looks to the positive rail and the other to the negative. Like all clamps.

What i don't quite understand is why there are about 100 steps between two peaks (whole period). Look at the drawing. There should be just 12 switching events until the full period to be completed. Any idea?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2018, 02:47:58 PM
Hi TinselKoala,

These lines in Pierre's original code, as an example for the first and second coils support an overlap.

 digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(1,LOW),  digitalWrite(13,LOW),  digitalWrite(25,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW

Regards

L192

Yes, I realize that. After all, I have the sketch running on a Mega right in front of me.
What I am questioning is the number of coils that are being turned on according to the quote from Perre. Does this posted sketch turn on 4 coils at a time?

Another issue that has never been cleared up, as far as I can tell, is the timing irregularity present in that first sketch posted from Pierre.  Is this intentional, or should there be an even, smooth flow with equal timings all around the ring? If it is intentional, what is the reason and does the demonstrated OU effect depend on it? If it is not intentional... then wtf????
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 03, 2018, 04:21:43 PM

What I am questioning is the number of coils that are being turned on according to the quote from Perre. Does this posted sketch turn on 4 coils at a time?


No. Those numbers are not representing coils but switches. At anytime, all 36 coils are active. Look the drawing of PMR at the previous page.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 03, 2018, 05:11:40 PM
No. Those numbers are not representing coils but switches. At anytime, all 36 coils are active. Look the drawing of PMR at the previous page.

But what about what Pierre himself said?

Quote
in my assembly there is 6 coils in series except that there is one that I feed for a fraction of a second so not to lose the magnetic field, so it leaves me with 5 coils operating in reality, example: 1 and 2 are powered by the positive and then 1 goes off to allow the magnetic flux to move etc. So in your case (Pierre is referring to [Luc's] 30 slot) there should be 4 coils operating using the program I gave you which is good.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 03, 2018, 06:34:23 PM
But what about what Pierre himself said?

Looks like he says the same. Six coils in series across each of the poles, but at the moment of changing to the next switch we have momentarily a different number of coils. You should study his diagram with the 360 deg. cycle showing exactly how current moves and what switches open and close for this to be achieved. PMR's drawing also is very well made.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 03, 2018, 06:35:59 PM
Yes, I realize that. After all, I have the sketch running on a Mega right in front of me.
What I am questioning is the number of coils that are being turned on according to the quote from Perre. Does this posted sketch turn on 4 coils at a time?

Another issue that has never been cleared up, as far as I can tell, is the timing irregularity present in that first sketch posted from Pierre.  Is this intentional, or should there be an even, smooth flow with equal timings all around the ring? If it is intentional, what is the reason and does the demonstrated OU effect depend on it? If it is not intentional... then wtf? ???

Hi TinselKoala,

It turns on 3 group of 6 coils.  Looking at one group say 1 to 6, then before turning of coil 1 it turns on coil 2 to 7 , then after a delay it turns off coil 1.

Regards

L192 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 03, 2018, 07:23:40 PM
Red=1
Blue=13
Green=25

Current through the upper red switch flows to ground through two below switches (Red and Green). The same action happens with the other two upper switches. So current flows all time through all of the 36 coils. At least this is how i get it.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 03, 2018, 09:20:38 PM
Just a Falstad simulation for half bridges simulating the coil 1 coil 2 period.

Green trace in second file is voltage across 1st MOSFET
There is some high frequency oscillation happening, which diminishes if I snub the source-drain.
Only clocking at 15Hz, but no large voltage peaks.

Current is across the 2nd inductor, which increases when the 2nd switch is turned on.

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 03, 2018, 09:28:14 PM
listener191:  falstad has a lot of mistakes! ex. When changes to much anything does not work properly.  Help: select all, copy, reload page F5 and paste.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 03, 2018, 09:44:35 PM
Now this is the picture when you remove all of the lower diodes, similar to the Pierre relay case.
Now there is a 206V pk spike when a coil turns off, which also would be the case if it were switch 2 staying on and switch 1 turning off. If you turn off all coils that's a 388V pk spike.

So the problem with Pierre's waveform looking so spikey, is lack of diodes in parallel with the low side relay contacts. Basic he has not provided any solid current path for the coils to discharge.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 03, 2018, 10:00:26 PM
hi Jeg
In message 249 you were asking about all the steps in voltage you see on scope between periods -
what I think all this is, is a "shorted" coil effect from his winding pattern and method, especially when the two opposing coils pass through the same slot in opposite=flow directions....this creating a bucking field, which slams the magnetic fields against each other, stopping the flow abruptly, and creating the bucking condition which also creates a shorted-condition more or less in both coils at once and this causes those hyper-spikes in voltage.....

these spikes in voltage also go "both ways" they are not like backemf/flyback spikes so much....rather ringing oscillations are created when coil is shorted; in Pierres case it is not so much a simple short of a coil by connecting coil leads together for instant with switch at the sinewave peak.......instead Pierre has more complicated (somewhat) = at least not so understandable method to create hyper-ringing spikes to his generating coils via his interweaving winding method and also passing coils through same stator slot in opposite directions
"perhaps" this has lots to do with the way it loops, and fills up the caps so well without lenz law or CEMF cancelling forces which normall occur in generators or transformers when loaded...

Normally you will see a gain in voltage into caps X20 when switch-shorting at sinewave peaks, a generator coil, X50 if all things perfect..
.
So this my konehead- theory it might have some merit might not but those spikes sure resemble peak-shorted spikes...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gmolina on April 04, 2018, 03:34:33 PM
Hi all,imho, in Pierre first video between minutes 5:09 and 6:19 i see that the core of the stator is very lightweight, out of normal, Piere can manipulate it of very easy way, the orange plastic that support winding insulators because aparently there are ausence of iron that can support it, and texture of the estator core make me think that this is a resin made core and not a iron or steel core. Maybe i could be wrong, but i hope i'm not.

Regards.

GM
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 04, 2018, 04:18:17 PM
Hi Gmolina,

No sorry you are incorrect..see attached
You can clearly see the stator is laminated steel.
The orange tube is just to pack the airgap to stop the rotor vibrating, which I can confirm it does, unless the air gap is firmly packed.

Regards

L192


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 02:52:30 PM
Seems  my reported demise of a L298N after extended running at 4A was premature.

The device had actually entered thermal shutdown and it took some time to recover.

I tested the board the next day and all was well.

This demonstrates they are pretty robust.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 05, 2018, 03:28:09 PM
The current flowing through the relay is about 8A or more. The effect may not be below a certain value. It's better to use more robust layouts.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 04:03:53 PM
The current flowing through the relay is about 8A or more. The effect may not be below a certain value. It's better to use more robust layouts.

Hi R2fpl,

Yes I totally agree.

I am waiting on one of the BTN7960B boards for evaluation.

It will have a 28V rail limit, so I want to see how much current I can get to pass through two sets of coils before deciding.

Also I think it wont sustain 10A on the heatsink supplied, with out thermal shutdown, so that's  another area of experimentation,

to see how the boards could be bolted on either a large heatsink plate or a thick aluminum angle rail.


Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 05, 2018, 04:12:50 PM
It will have a 28V rail limit, so I want to see how much current I can get to pass through two sets of coils before deciding.

Also I think it wont sustain 10A on the heatsink supplied, with out thermal shutdown, so that's  another area of experimentation,
It depends how far you would like to go on heating coil wires.

In Pierre's setup the input was 110V 1.5A which translates to 165W in total and supercaps was on 20V charge. Which translates to 8.25A consumption in total across all coils minus BEMF recovery.
And for a sake of test how much you can get from artificially created rotating magnetic field it does not need to consume so much power.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 04:32:31 PM
It depends how far you would like to go on heating coil wires.

In Pierre's setup the input was 110V 1.5A which translates to 165W in total and supercaps was on 20V charge. Which translates to 8.25A consumption in total across all coils minus BEMF recovery.
And for a sake of test how much you can get from artificially created rotating magnetic field it does not need to consume so much power.

Cheers!
Hi T-1000

There are three current paths, so each high side and low side switch would be conducting 2.75A based on the assumption that all of the power is coming from the supply, which is well within a paralleled L298N's rating.

Pierre alluded to a much larger current per switch pair (not stated though), so perhaps the recovery is much higher than we can see at this time and hence the coil current is higher.
If he could give us a ball park coil current, that would be helpful in a number of ways.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 05, 2018, 04:54:42 PM
Builders You need a gross value of 900 Watt to make your magnetic field,  if you don't find a method to recover power to the electromagets!

And Pierres OU ???

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 05:52:18 PM
Builders You need a gross value of 900 Watt to make your magnetic field,  if you don't find a method to recover power to the electromagets!

And Pierres OU ???

Regards Arne

Hi Seead,

At such a low clock frequency DC resistance dominates so...

6 of my coils in series are about 6.41ohms, so two of these series chains are fed in parallel, so 3.205ohms  .. 21V/3.205ohms = 6.55A  x 3 paths = 19.65A,  closer to 412W.

Regards
L192   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 05, 2018, 06:36:42 PM
To prevent melting the insulation or the wires stay below 2000A/in2 = 3.1A/mm2. Source of this information:
http://what-when-how.com/electric-motors/current-density-electric-motors/ (http://what-when-how.com/electric-motors/current-density-electric-motors/)
Here are more on designing stator windings:
http://what-when-how.com/electric-motors/design-equations-electric-motors/ (http://what-when-how.com/electric-motors/design-equations-electric-motors/)

There has to be enough inductance in the coils to limit the current at the frequency used. If using resistance to limit the current place external resistors rated for dissipating the required amount of power. This of course is a total waste of power. External inductors can also limit the current. Inductors don't dissipate the power as the energy is given back at demagnetization. Better design the windings for the job without dissipating power as heat.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 05, 2018, 08:11:32 PM
IRF3205 / IRF4905

Max values
55V, 200W, continuous Id=52A/80A, Pulsed I=260A/390,  Rds(on)  8mOhm/20mOm

An interesting mosfet matching and cheap. With a capable heatsink it will run fine

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irf3205.pdf
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/irf4905.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355e32165197c

As for clamping diodes i was thinking about UF5408. 1000V/3A. Any other idea here?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 05, 2018, 08:34:47 PM
Hi Seead,
At such a low clock frequency DC resistance dominates so..
L192
Hi L192
Your coil: About 1.2mH (free)  assuming 2.5 mH (tight to secondary core)
1.2mH => XL 60Hz ==> about 0.5 Ohm
2.5mH => XL 60Hz ==> about 1 Ohm
Roughly;  DC flows half the time of the outgoing frequency (60Hz; 8.3ms) then DC in the opposite direction next half, if looking at one single coil.

Pic : one single coil Z (Roughly)

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 09:50:59 PM
IRF3205 / IRF4905

Max values
55V, 200W, continuous Id=52A/80A, Pulsed I=260A/390,  Rds(on)  8mOhm/20mOm

An interesting mosfet matching and cheap. With a capable heatsink it will run fine

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irf3205.pdf (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irf3205.pdf)
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/irf4905.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355e32165197c (https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/irf4905.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355e32165197c)

As for clamping diodes i was thinking about UF5408. 1000V/3A. Any other idea here?

Hi Jeg,

Whats wrong with using the body diodes, or are you concerned about heat?

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 09:55:06 PM
Hi L192
Your coil: About 1.2mH (free)  assuming 2.5 mH (tight to secondary core)
1.2mH => XL 60Hz ==> about 0.5 Ohm
2.5mH => XL 60Hz ==> about 1 Ohm
Roughly;  DC flows half the time of the outgoing frequency (60Hz; 8.3ms) then DC in the opposite direction next half, if looking at one single coil.

Pic : one single coil Z (Roughly)

Regards Arne
Hi Seaad

Except if I clock at 60Hz then current reduces. Clocking at 20 to 25Hz produces the largest output.

Also even if I take your impedance example for a single coil, I have 6 in series (under test), =8.4 ohms.

I have been operating at 35V so 35/8.4= 4.1A.

4.1A is achievable at 20Hz clock rate, not 60Hz.

Regards

L192 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 05, 2018, 10:33:39 PM
Hi Seaad
 A) Clocking at 20 to 25Hz produces the largets output.

Also even if I take your impedance example for a single coil, I have 6 in series (under test), =8.4 ohms.
I have been operating at 35V so 35/8.4= 4.1A.
B) 4.1A is achievable at 20Hz clock rate, not 60Hz.
L192

A) Pierres freq. 13-15 Hz  8)

B) You have a multiplicative effect with the (total 6 coils) m-Henry value due to overlapping coils and some weird half and full transformer function depending of the proximity to to the output core. Due to that the Z goes up steeper than just adding coils. A higher total Henry value favorably even at 20 Hz.

Which inductance value do you get to a 6 coil overlapped "section"? Away or close to the output core.

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 05, 2018, 11:48:56 PM
A) Pierres freq. 13-15 Hz  8)

B) You have a multiplicative effect with the (total 6 coils) m-Henry value due to overlapping coils and some weird half and full transformer function depending of the proximity to to the output core. Due to that the Z goes up steeper than just adding coils. A higher total Henry value favorably even at 20 Hz.

Which inductance value do you get to a 6 coil overlapped "section"? Away or close to the output core.

Regards Arne

Hi Seaad,

With the rotor open circuit and rotated through 360 degs, the minimum inductance of 6 coils in series is 9.7mH  and the maximum inductance is 98mH.

There is nothing particularly strange about the windings, apart from the linear distribution that produces a triangular wave.
The individual coils flux add, with the peak half way between the start of the first coil and the end of the 6th coil.

For a distributed winding to produce a sine wave, a gap is needed between the coils so the flux rise rate reduces towards the peak.

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 06, 2018, 04:48:27 AM

 Hi People,

These bloody  H-Bridges...
Used to excite coil(s) with  tricky arrangement(s) thereof might be one key for OU. No?

My question is (for low freq) :
How many relay(s) do you need to build such an H-Bridge?
My answer is : just one 4 poles relay.

Now, you, perhaps,  might consider  Duncan Pickthallp's more simple ideas.

Le bonsoir vous sied,
Jean

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 06, 2018, 05:05:59 AM
Here is the circuit:

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 06, 2018, 05:21:24 AM
OK. Here is the Duncan Pickthall'pdf

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 06, 2018, 09:50:41 AM
The Secret of DPDT:
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 06, 2018, 10:53:23 AM
Here is my analysis of P.C. circuit with flyback diodes. Who is, or is not, of my opinion?
Are the diodes well positioned and in the right direction?

FR
Voici mon analyse du circuit de P.C. avec les diodes flyback. Qui est, ou pas, de mon avis ?
Les diodes sont-elles bien positionnées et dans le bon sens ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 06, 2018, 10:53:29 AM
Hi Seaad,
With the rotor open circuit and rotated through 360 degs, the minimum inductance of 6 coils in series is 9.7mH  and the maximum inductance is 98mH.
L192
Hi L
Some compared values (rough):

6 "free"   (single coils) just mH added = 7.2 mH ,            6 coils group overlapped "free" = 10 mH   ( your min. value) "transformer effect"  + 2.8mH extra
6 "close" (single coils) just mH added = 15 mH  ,            6 coils group overlapped "close"= 100 mH ( your max. value) "transformer effect" + 85mH  extra

6 coils group overlapped impedanse values are :

 20 Hz  "free"  Z= 6.5 Ohm , "close" Z= 12.1 Ohm

 60 Hz  "free"  Z= 15.4 Ohm , "close" Z= 40.5 Ohm

To improve the loss values it is important to have some "semicore sections" at the free parts of the stator see my pic. Or make two output cores separated from each other.
Another suggestion is to remove / disconnect (not use) all coils nearby the semi core sections??

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 06, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
TinselKoala:


http://tinyurl.com/yatk8sgk

hmmmmm....
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 06, 2018, 12:49:11 PM
Here is my analysis of P.C. circuit with flyback diodes. Who is, or is not, of my opinion?
Are the diodes well positioned and in the right direction?

The below diodes are for grounding the negative peak. In your drawing they don't.

Hi Jeg,

Whats wrong with using the body diodes, or are you concerned about heat?


It is always a better practice to share body's diode strain with an external fast diode.
It prolongs mosfet's life.

Regards
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 06, 2018, 12:49:51 PM
Hi MichelM

Quote
Are the diodes well positioned and in the right direction?

The diodes are placed in parallel. D1+//D-, D2+//D2- etc. Half of the diodes can be omitted or else put the D- diodes in parallel to the bottom switches just like the D+ diodes are in parallel to the top switches. The D- diodes are then to be placed reverse biased like the top diodes. E.g. put the anode to the negative supply voltage and the cathode to the coil junctions.

Placed as described here is the way the parasitic diode points in power MOSFETs or the protective diode points in bipolar transistors if having a protective diode.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 06, 2018, 01:38:21 PM
Hi People,

These bloody  H-Bridges...
Used to excite coil(s) with  tricky arrangement(s) thereof might be one key for OU. No?

My question is (for low freq) :
How many relay(s) do you need to build such an H-Bridge?
My answer is : just one 4 poles relay.

Now, you, perhaps,  might consider  Duncan Pickthallp's more simple ideas.

Le bonsoir vous sied,
Jean

Hi NerzhDishual,

Yes it may be the best replication would be to first use relays.

The opto isolated boards available on Ebay seem to be single pole only and are cheap enough to just use two relays for each half bridge.

If you find such boards with double pole single throw relays, please let us know.


Regards


L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 06, 2018, 03:09:33 PM
Jeg, onielsen,

Pierre shows in his first video that all the outputs of the diodes converge towards the positive of the bank of capacitors (red wire).
So, if each diode has a utility, what is the good sense of the diodes? Or yes, half is useless.
Luc showed us his video with the flyback diode on an assembly with a single switch, and with a recovery that is discharged into a capacitor.
We need to know how to place the flyback diodes with another device, which has two switches - one underneath, and the other above the coil.
The idea is to put this energy back into the source.
Luc can you also give your opinion?

FR
Pierre montre dans sa première vidéo que toutes les sorties des diodes convergent vers le positif de la banque de condensateurs (fil rouge).
Donc, si chaque diode a une utilité, quelle est le bon sens des diodes ? Ou alors oui, la moitié est inutile.
Luc nous a montré sa vidéo avec la diode flyback sur un montage avec un seul interrupteur, et avec une récupération qui est déchargée dans un condensateur.
Nous avons besoin de savoir comment placer les diodes flyback avec un dispositif autre, qui dispose de deux interrupteurs - l'un en-dessous, et l'autre en dessus de la bobine. L'idée étant de remettre cette énergie dans la source.
Luc pouvez-vous aussi donner votre avis ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 06, 2018, 05:02:01 PM
Hi MichelM,

Pierre's image:
http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/dlattach/attach/166918/image// (http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/dlattach/attach/166918/image//)

As the current through an inductor is always continuous (no sudden jumps) this makes the voltage doing the jumps or even changing sign to preserve the value of the current at any given moment. For capacitors the voltage is continuous while the current is discontinuous which is opposite to inductors. When disconnecting a coil the current continues to run through it which makes the voltage across it change sign. The coil changes from receiving energy (sink) to giving off the stored energy (source).
(http://zone.ni.com/images/reference/en-XX/help/370736U-01/loc_eps_quadrant.gif)
 This image is from here: http://zone.ni.com/reference/en-XX/help/370736U-01/ni_dc_power_supplies_help/sinking_sourcing/ (http://zone.ni.com/reference/en-XX/help/370736U-01/ni_dc_power_supplies_help/sinking_sourcing/)

Looking at Pierre's image the left hand side coil has the current going to the right when the top left and the center bottom switches are closed. The coil sinks power and stores it as magnetic energy. If opening one of the switches the current through the coil continues running but the voltage across the coil changes sign. The coil is now a source and gives off the stored magnetic energy. The voltage across it immediately adjusts to fit the current running. If the impedance the coil sees is high the insulation breaks down or a spark forms across the switch opening or the coil has enough capacitance between the winding to store the magnetic energy as electric energy.

Putting diodes to the supply rails prevents the destructive flyback voltages. The current instead takes the path through the diodes. The diode from the right hand side of the coil lets the current go to the positive supply rail. A diode from the negative supply rail across the bottom switch of the negative hand side is needed to close the circuit if the bottom switch is opened.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 06, 2018, 08:39:36 PM
L192
The maximum current that arduino 2560 can give across its outputs is 200mA in total. That means 200/30=7mA max per pin output. I tried to find how much current L298 board needs at its input but no luck. What do you think? Will arduino be able to drive 30 of such boards?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 06, 2018, 08:49:31 PM
L192
The maximum current that arduino 2560 can give across its outputs is 200mA in total. That means 200/30=7mA max per pin output. I tried to find how much current L298 board needs at its input but no luck. What do you think? Will arduino be able to drive 30 of such boards?
Hi Jeg, that should not be a problem. The inputs to the L298 board are digital CMOS/TTL compatible inputs so they consume no current, typically 10-30uA per input, see the datasheet:
https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/L298_H_Bridge.pdf
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 07, 2018, 12:32:38 AM
A 12 step simulation at 5Hz.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 07, 2018, 06:16:23 AM
Hi Jeg, that should not be a problem. The inputs to the L298 board are digital CMOS/TTL compatible inputs so they consume no current, typically 10-30uA per input, see the datasheet:
https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Robotics/L298_H_Bridge.pdf
PmgR

Thank you PMGR. Indeed 10-30uA is nothing. I was trying to find a good opto-isolator for the inputs when i realized this 200mA limit.
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on April 07, 2018, 08:10:10 AM
Don't forget options.. ;D as a relay replacement.  http://www.crydom.com/en/


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 07, 2018, 09:28:40 AM
Those Crydom SSRs seem to be selling for between about 12 and 20 dollars US each, depending on ratings and quantity purchased. So say you need 72 of them to replace Pierre's relays.... Well, nobody ever said Free Energy would be cheap, I guess.

Who is going to spend that kind of money on something where the original claims are still not verified?

For this application a jarfull of cheap SMD mosfets, mosfet drivers, and a custom-designed PCB could probably be built to handle all the switching for under a hundred bux (estimated of course). The major time consumer would be designing the PCB and sending the design off to a fab house in China.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 07, 2018, 10:35:27 AM
Those Crydom SSRs seem to be selling for between about 12 and 20 dollars US each, depending on ratings and quantity purchased. So say you need 72 of them to replace Pierre's relays.... Well, nobody ever said Free Energy would be cheap, I guess.

Who is going to spend that kind of money on something where the original claims are still not verified?

For this application a jarfull of cheap SMD mosfets, mosfet drivers, and a custom-designed PCB could probably be built to handle all the switching for under a hundred bux (estimated of course). The major time consumer would be designing the PCB and sending the design off to a fab house in China.

Why buy. You can do it cheaper 2$


For example: DIY
AC and DC version:
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 07, 2018, 11:14:20 AM
A 12 step simulation now at 52 Hz. N.b. wave  voltage drops suddenly!

Compared with the 5 Hz version the total Amperage draw don't decrease so much !
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 07, 2018, 11:37:38 AM
A 12 step simulation now at 52 Hz. N.b. wave  voltage drops suddenly!
That makes sense. The time constant of a coil is L/R, so maximum frequency is f=R/(2*pi*L). At 52Hz you are hitting the limit. If you decrease L, you will increase maximum frequency. Alternatively, you can increase the series resistance of the inductor.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 07, 2018, 12:50:35 PM
That makes sense. The time constant of a coil is L/R, so maximum frequency is f=R/(2*pi*L). At 52Hz you are hitting the limit. If you decrease L, you will increase maximum frequency. Alternatively, you can increase the series resistance of the inductor.
PmgR

Here at 52 hz all coils 1mH and NO protection diodes at all. Nice curves!   I seems to be wrong about my prediction about high spikes.

N.b. Current draw! 6-7 Amp the same as at 5Hz!


N.b. 2 I can't simulate power suction from the secondary fixed core & coil here.
That can absolutely affect the cenario!

For switching I'm using Standard Transistors !!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 07, 2018, 02:57:15 PM
Test mosfet 2xirf540n; 1 coil in stator;

8Hz

5V@1.2A
6V@2.2A
6.5V@3.8A

20V@ ??? A ???


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 07, 2018, 03:35:55 PM
Test mosfet 2xirf540n; 1 coil in stator;   8Hz
5V@1.2A
6V@2.2A
6.5V@3.8A          20V@ ??? A ???

So help you God!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: kEhYo77 on April 07, 2018, 04:39:11 PM
New video guyz : how to wind the stator!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF2MHOouwG8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF2MHOouwG8)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: keykhin on April 07, 2018, 05:00:49 PM
Test mosfet 2xirf540n; 1 coil in stator;

8Hz

5V@1.2A
6V@2.2A
6.5V@3.8A

20V@ ??? A ???


IRF540 will overheat due to his high drain-source ON resistance Rds(on). Use IRF3205, it has Rds(on)= 0,008 ohm and can handle up to 110 Amp. And the most important thing is to use a proper gate driver circuit like IR2301. http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/datasheets/IR2301.pdf
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 07, 2018, 05:11:25 PM
Stefan, all
N-N or S-S ends opposing each other makes the Flux Lines to "escape" from the iron core where they collides!  Is an iron core (perpendicular) nearby it sucs in the flux.  ,      Regards  / Arne
About Pierre's "100 % free energy step by step dz générator 2 ( part 1)" film.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 07, 2018, 07:34:01 PM
Pierre's new build is starting to look like the reciprocal of the attached.

It also would seem from his previous comments about leaving a gap between the poles, that the idea is to keep the flux in the stator in the form of alternating polarity & rotating  pole sections, except for where the rotor is located, where the flux would cross the rotor to the opposite  pole.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 07, 2018, 07:52:11 PM
Enhansed N-field with three coils or just coil A and B. Just playing.
SN-NS coils is more power consuming than SN-SN. (AC)

listener191
Not fed from DC anymore?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: e2matrix on April 07, 2018, 08:25:06 PM
Those Crydom SSRs seem to be selling for between about 12 and 20 dollars US each, depending on ratings and quantity purchased. So say you need 72 of them to replace Pierre's relays.... Well, nobody ever said Free Energy would be cheap, I guess.

Who is going to spend that kind of money on something where the original claims are still not verified?

For this application a jarfull of cheap SMD mosfets, mosfet drivers, and a custom-designed PCB could probably be built to handle all the switching for under a hundred bux (estimated of course). The major time consumer would be designing the PCB and sending the design off to a fab house in China.



Yes SSR's would not be cheap.  $20 x 72 = $1440 or $12 x 72 = $864.   Or make your own as r2fpl said $2 x 72 = $144 and you have to build all those yourself.   So why not just do it the way Pierre did as I mentioned earlier for $45 you can get all 72 relays mounted with the Arduino ready board with 8 relays per board which appearidentical to what Pierre used?    For $45 you can verify if it all works versus spending hundreds of dollars to find out if a different method works which has never been shown to work yet.   Then if it works this way builders could try one of the solid state methods.   Seems the most logical and affordable way to go about this.  It also avoids introducing variables into a build which may prevent it from working.

Pierre's boards below and identical one from eBay for $4.87 each:
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 07, 2018, 08:32:02 PM
 Different coil topology. I am really curious to see how Pierre's secondary will be placed now. Same as before? Or winding like all normal torroid cores?

Pierre, merci de partager vos innovations. Bon travail ;)
Pierre, thanks for sharing your innovations. Great work ;)
Regards




 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 07, 2018, 08:33:44 PM
Test mosfet 2xirf540n; 1 coil in stator;

8Hz

5V@1.2A
6V@2.2A
6.5V@3.8A

20V@ ??? A ???
Thanks for the report, and nice work. How many KW is your stator? Looks like 10 as Pierre's one.

Regards
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 07, 2018, 09:03:37 PM
Thanks for the report, and nice work. How many KW is your stator? Looks like 10 as Pierre's one.

Regards

3,5Kw from e.motor

I have new 5,5Kw. Only 1cm diameter more.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 07, 2018, 09:20:31 PM
Hi Everyone
I just got a 30 pole stator ready to go - saved all the plastic inserts - and am ready to wind a "DZ generator" stator as also I have a big spool of 22GA magnet wire, rated for motors and generators....
BUT now I am confused (as is usual) and watched Pierres most recent video (part 2) of his 10hp size stator, and he is now winding the coils on it very much different than his previous DZ generator (it seems) as now he is doing it straight across the core more or less rather than skipping over 5 or 6 slots as before....
So what should I do?
I like his newer stator windings method better just looking at that single coil he did in the part 2 video seems like it will make more power BUT perhaps since experiment and "improvement" maybe it will kill the whole reasons the DZ generator is so much overunity and looping?
What do you guys think? What would you do very briefly for some advice if you also had a 30 pole stator to wind up??
I am anxious to start but want to do it right....Gotoluc left message few days ago that his windings do not seem to be like Pierres (????_ in Poerres first prototype.. so am worried now about doing it exactly like Gotoluc did but maybe that is best idea?
Also it would be fun and very important too, to come to grips upoin exactly WHY this design of generator loops and gives so much overunity power!!! If we had really good idea it would not only help replications and improved designs and builds we all do, but will help out Pierre  by giving him idea and reasons for the looping and overunity so he will also understand much better....
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 07, 2018, 09:56:12 PM
Hi Everyone
I just got a 30 pole stator ready to go - saved all the plastic inserts - and am ready to wind a "DZ generator" stator as also I have a big spool of 22GA magnet wire, rated for motors and generators....
BUT now I am confused (as is usual) and watched Pierres most recent video (part 2) of his 10hp size stator, and he is now winding the coils on it very much different than his previous DZ generator (it seems) as now he is doing it straight across the core more or less rather than skipping over 5 or 6 slots as before....
So what should I do?
I like his newer stator windings method better just looking at that single coil he did in the part 2 video seems like it will make more power BUT perhaps since experiment and "improvement" maybe it will kill the whole reasons the DZ generator is so much overunity and looping?
What do you guys think? What would you do very briefly for some advice if you also had a 30 pole stator to wind up??
I am anxious to start but want to do it right....Gotoluc left message few days ago that his windings do not seem to be like Pierres (????_ in Poerres first prototype.. so am worried now about doing it exactly like Gotoluc did but maybe that is best idea?
Also it would be fun and very important too, to come to grips upoin exactly WHY this design of generator loops and gives so much overunity power!!! If we had really good idea it would not only help replications and improved designs and builds we all do, but will help out Pierre  by giving him idea and reasons for the looping and overunity so he will also understand much better....

Start with electronics because it will be the same for the old and new generator. I think so.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 08, 2018, 12:33:56 AM
Hi Kone,

I don't think it matters much if the coils are spanning several slots or being split up into smaller coils between two neighboring slots. What matters is mixing the magnetic fields into coherence which represents more energy than single coils added do. I'm preparing an experiment using small ferrite transformers instead of a motor stator. You know from your forum that I like doing the experiments in small scale as electronics are scalable. It looks like Pierre's device isn't depending on resonance as the load can be changed without affecting its running. This is unlike the Jensen UDT and Hector transformer that both are affected by changing the load and both have to be fed reactive power for overunity. Pierre's new winding is more like Bob Boyce's way of putting poly phases into a single ring core. Tesla also did that in some of his patents. This forms rotating poles extending out of the ring core.

Pierre's first stator has the magnetic fields in parallel while the current is in series. This makes the stored energy coherent and makes the stored energy increase to the square of the current. In his new stator the magnetic fields are in series and the current is still in series I guess. The field through the blocked rotor core may still be in parallel and thus could become coherent. I.e. the field from two neighboring similar poles may become mixed into a coherent field representing more energy than the single fields added before being mixed. This is the principle of inversion of Wilbert B. Smith.

I'm currently designing only six bridge outputs for running six transformers which probably is the smallest number possible if it has to work like the device of Pierre. Pierre's device has some of the coils shorted which makes them act like permanent magnets even though having loss because of the resistance of the wires. It can be made simpler if the coils don't have to be shorted. Perhaps I should prepare for making it possible to switch between shorted and not shorted coils. The non-shorted coils will demagnetize and 'discharge' to the voltage supply rails through the parasitic diodes in the MOSFET outputs.

By the way people should also know about the Molina-Martinez (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030168921A1/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030168921A1/en)) and Hyun (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20040007932 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20040007932)) patent applications. They both claim overunity from ordinary three phased rotating fields and even from two phased fields (Hyun). They both use a locked rotor as secondary. This makes it possible to use a standard stator without having to rewind it by feeding it with three-phased AC. I haven't seen proof of this concept before the Pierre Cotnoir device.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 08, 2018, 12:37:01 AM
Hi R2
I plan on making brush copper commutator for this (15 pole and two N S brushes)
thanks for the good advice however but I am itching to wind the stator...
I wish I knew how and why it loops and is overunity I can only guess right now
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 08, 2018, 02:15:54 AM
Hi Kone,
Quote
I wish I knew how and why it loops and is overunity I can only guess right now

It mixes the magnetic fields into a coherent field.

The mathematics behind coherent fields as opposed to just fields of superposition by Janos Vajda: 'VIOLATION OF THE LAW OF ENERGY CONSERVATION IN WAVE FIELDS' https://feprinciples.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/energy_from_wave_fields_1-21.pdf (https://feprinciples.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/energy_from_wave_fields_1-21.pdf).

Andrei Melnichanko also explains the principle: 'Opinion 1. Transgeneratsiya.'
http://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F13750%2Fmelnicenko-self-running-device%2Fdlattach%2Fattach%2F126928%2F&ei=qI4qUpjsI6fx4QTFxYEo&usg=AFQjCNH0k4YN33F_CslpOovifoNqOtsAIg&bvm=bv.51773540,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F13750%2Fmelnicenko-self-running-device%2Fdlattach%2Fattach%2F126928%2F&ei=qI4qUpjsI6fx4QTFxYEo&usg=AFQjCNH0k4YN33F_CslpOovifoNqOtsAIg&bvm=bv.51773540,d.bGE&cad=rja)

and part two: http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://izob.narod.ru/p0007.html (http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://izob.narod.ru/p0007.html)

And of course Wilbert B. Smith in 'The New Science' in chapter X  explains the Principle of Inversion without telling exactly how to practically do it: https://www.wanttoknow.info/energy/wilbur_smith_new_science#ch10forces (https://www.wanttoknow.info/energy/wilbur_smith_new_science#ch10forces).

Magnetic energy stored in a coil is coherent as it increases to the square of the current creating the field. Two equal but separate coils having the same current through them each represents say one unit of energy. Now let the coils share the same core (space) but having the turns in series and the same current as before through them. By doubling the number of turns quadruples the inductance of the coil. Having the same current through the coil gives four times the energy of a single coil. This makes the single coil of double the number of turns store twice the amount of energy as that of the two separate coils of the same current. This is just by mixing the magnetic fields into the same space.

The trick then is to input the fields in separate forms and mix them into a coherent field. Normally separate fields just pass through each other like beams of light and separates from each other like ocean waves crossing (superposition). But the fields have to become one single new field (coherent) just like a LASER beam which doesn't break up in different directions after having formed.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 08, 2018, 07:00:54 AM
What do you guys think? What would you do very briefly for some advice if you also had a 30 pole stator to wind up??'[/size]

[/size]
i think better replicate first generator. but maybe all his dz generators is fake? [/size]
i not be replicate any generator, because not enaught information how replicate and maybe this generators is fake. maybe i wrong.[/size]
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 08, 2018, 09:34:43 AM
What do you guys think? What would you do very briefly for some advice if you also had a 30 pole stator to wind up??'[/size]

[/size]
i think better replicate first generator. but maybe all his dz generators is fake? [/size]
i not be replicate any generator, because not enaught information how replicate and maybe this generators is fake. maybe i wrong.[/size]

Hi MenofFather,

Several theories have been tabled in this thread but I would say you need to rely on your own belief in a theory of operation.

If you don't believe that this has at least a 50% chance of producing a favorable result, then don't attempt a replication, as there is a lot of work and cost associated with the build.

Regards

L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 08, 2018, 09:49:02 AM
Hi Kone,

I don't think it matters much if the coils are spanning several slots or being split up into smaller coils between two neighboring slots. What matters is mixing the magnetic fields into coherence which represents more energy than single coils added do. I'm preparing an experiment using small ferrite transformers instead of a motor stator. You know from your forum that I like doing the experiments in small scale as electronics are scalable. It looks like Pierre's device isn't depending on resonance as the load can be changed without affecting its running. This is unlike the Jensen UDT and Hector transformer that both are affected by changing the load and both have to be fed reactive power for overunity. Pierre's new winding is more like Bob Boyce's way of putting poly phases into a single ring core. Tesla also did that in some of his patents. This forms rotating poles extending out of the ring core.

Pierre's first stator has the magnetic fields in parallel while the current is in series. This makes the stored energy coherent and makes the stored energy increase to the square of the current. In his new stator the magnetic fields are in series and the current is still in series I guess. The field through the blocked rotor core may still be in parallel and thus could become coherent. I.e. the field from two neighboring similar poles may become mixed into a coherent field representing more energy than the single fields added before being mixed. This is the principle of inversion of Wilbert B. Smith.

I'm currently designing only six bridge outputs for running six transformers which probably is the smallest number possible if it has to work like the device of Pierre. Pierre's device has some of the coils shorted which makes them act like permanent magnets even though having loss because of the resistance of the wires. It can be made simpler if the coils don't have to be shorted. Perhaps I should prepare for making it possible to switch between shorted and not shorted coils. The non-shorted coils will demagnetize and 'discharge' to the voltage supply rails through the parasitic diodes in the MOSFET outputs.

By the way people should also know about the Molina-Martinez (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030168921A1/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030168921A1/en)) and Hyun (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20040007932 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20040007932)) patent applications. They both claim overunity from ordinary three phased rotating fields and even from two phased fields (Hyun). They both use a locked rotor as secondary. This makes it possible to use a standard stator without having to rewind it by feeding it with three-phased AC. I haven't seen proof of this concept before the Pierre Cotnoir device.

Regards
Ole

Hi Onielsen,

I posted a picture of a Hyun replication in the other thread, for the simple two phase device. This one did not yield a positive result, as the shaded pole technique consumed too much power.

I tried a linear version of the three phase transformer (picture also posted) however, this did not develop the traveling wave component, so nothing special there.

I have the facility to cut silicon steel lamination's now, so it might be interesting to revisit the concept and cut the circular infill section required to complete design.

The rotary flux transformer only needs a VFD  to work, so a much simpler build with a good sine output.

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 08, 2018, 10:08:20 AM
Hi MenofFather,

Several theories have been tabled in this thread but I would say you need to rely on your own belief in a theory of operation.

If you don't believe that this has at least a 50% chance of producing a favorable result, then don't attempt a replication, as there is a lot of work and cost associated with the build.

Regards

L192

Some people need> 100%, sometimes it is not enough.
They wait as it will be in the store.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 08, 2018, 12:12:23 PM

BUT now I am confused (as is usual) and watched Pierres most recent video (part 2) of his 10hp size stator, and he is now winding the coils on it very much different than his previous DZ generator (it seems) as now he is doing it straight across the core more or less rather than skipping over 5 or 6 slots as before....
So what should I do?

Same question here. I just received my 3phase 4KW scrap motor. I still need to salvage it so i have some time to think it more. The new topology will experience 100% the transformer effect between primaries, but this is not necessarily a bad thing if someone count it and raise the input voltage.

Regards
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 08, 2018, 12:40:12 PM
Same question here. I just received my 3phase 4KW scrap motor. I still need to salvage it so i have some time to think it more. The new topology will experience 100% the transformer effect between primaries, but this is not necessarily a bad thing if someone count it and raise the input voltage.

Regards


How many slots ? I need 36 like Pierre.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 08, 2018, 12:48:59 PM

How many slots ? I need 36 like Pierre.

I will answer you in two days, as due to the holly days i have no time for this right now.  ;)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 08, 2018, 01:00:06 PM
Hi MenofFather,

Several theories have been tabled in this thread but I would say you need to rely on your own belief in a theory of operation.

If you don't believe that this has at least a 50% chance of producing a favorable result, then don't attempt a replication, as there is a lot of work and cost associated with the build.

Regards

L192
agree.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 09, 2018, 07:58:34 PM
From Y.T.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF2MHOouwG8

" pierre Cotnoir
    one day ago

I only rely on the operation of a generator the rest comes from the logic how the magnetic field interplay test and error

all does not work as I want it sometimes , like the new prototype

I have no idea if it goes to work


but one thing is sure if you have an idea and you do not put it into practice it will never work."
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 10, 2018, 02:37:02 PM

How many slots ? I need 36 like Pierre.

36 poles 5,5KW
I see that there are some wedges circumstantially placed between stator and housing. Should i hammer them for extracting the stator out?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 10, 2018, 04:35:46 PM
36 poles 5,5KW
I see that there are some wedges circumstantially placed between stator and housing. Should i hammer them for extracting the stator out?

Take it out of the housing and remove the wires. It took me 4 hours, I did it for the first time as probably you. Good luck, it's hard to do.

My rotor is different. It's from a generator.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 10, 2018, 05:55:36 PM
Take it out of the housing and remove the wires. It took me 4 hours, I did it for the first time as probably you. Good luck, it's hard to do.

My rotor is different. It's from a generator.

Just like my rotor the overlap is a lot more than 6 stator poles, about 11 on this one and about 9 on mine.

Pierre looks like he has a custom rotor, as his covers only 6 stator poles.
They could be trimmed down to 6 poles, but  a bobbin edge would have to be created to hold the windings.


Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 10, 2018, 06:05:21 PM
Just like my rotor the overlap is a lot more than 6 stator poles, about 11 on this one and about 9 on mine.

Pierre looks like he has a custom rotor, as his covers only 6 stator poles.
They could be trimmed down to 6 poles, but  a bobbin edge would have to be created to hold the windings.


Regards

L192

Hi L192,

Maybe it has a core from the welder or sheet metal packaged.
Yes 6 slots size.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 10, 2018, 08:27:26 PM
From Y.T.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF2MHOouwG8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF2MHOouwG8)
This video have different magnetic poles arrangement. This time the resulting magnetic polarity will be on 90 degrees from previous setup.

Still interesting to see if he will be able to make proper induction... ;)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 10, 2018, 09:53:50 PM
Take it out of the housing and remove the wires.

How did you extract your stator from motor's housing? The outer casing looks like an iron cast.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 10, 2018, 10:28:04 PM
How did you extract your stator from motor's housing? The outer casing looks like an iron cast.

Just push under the press or cut.

Next ...answer is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgkM3qxPjtw
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 10, 2018, 11:49:24 PM
If anyone thinks this is an easy build you better think again. Winding a stator is only 25% of the job. See below video of my finished product. Testing will begin tomorrow after winding the center core.

Fr. Si quelqu'un pense que c'est une construction facile, il vaut mieux réfléchir à nouveau. L'enroulement d'un stator ne représente que 25% du travail. Voir ci-dessous la vidéo de mon produit fini. Les tests commenceront demain après avoir enroulé le noyau central.

Video: https://youtu.be/m16qvt9-2Kk

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: iflewmyown on April 11, 2018, 12:08:07 AM
Thanks for the update. Fantastic. Looks like a life form.
Garry
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 11, 2018, 12:30:29 AM
all,
Je me demande si les moteurs universels comme sur l'image ci dessous ne pourraient pas convenir pour ce type d'expérimentation..[.......].
juste une idée ;)

A clever lazy man very good  idea, IMHO.
Français (Coluchien): Voila une idée qu'elle est très bonne, selon moi!

Sinon:
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 02:30:35 AM
Thanks for the update. Fantastic. Looks like a life form.
Garry

Thanks Garry

I also received this personal message from Pierre:

very nice job, except for the location of the arduino,  there's a good chance it will be affected by the magnetic field being so close. Would be better not to put the electronics so close to the magnetic field.

Fr. J'ai aussi reçu ce message personnel de Pierre:

Fr. très beau travail sauf l'emplacement de l'arduino il y a de grosse chance qu'il  bug a cause des champs magnétique qui sont coller dessus il serait préférable de ne pas mettre l'électronique aussi près du champ magnétique
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 11, 2018, 05:21:54 AM
If anyone thinks this is an easy build you better think again. Winding a stator is only 25% of the job. See below video of my finished product. Testing will begin tomorrow after winding the center core.

Fr. Si quelqu'un pense que c'est une construction facile, il vaut mieux réfléchir à nouveau. L'enroulement d'un stator ne représente que 25% du travail. Voir ci-dessous la vidéo de mon produit fini. Les tests commenceront demain après avoir enroulé le noyau central.

Video: https://youtu.be/m16qvt9-2Kk (https://youtu.be/m16qvt9-2Kk)
Amazingly nice build Luc!

What you can do as a first experiment is mount a small magnet on an axis that can rotate and place it in the middle of the stator (take the rotor out) and upload the Arduino sketch with a 1Hz frequency (x=50 in your Arduino sketch). It will then take 3secs for the magnet to spin around once (or you can decrease the x value to something else if that is too slow).

Start with a voltage as low as possible so you don't overheat any H bridges. The on-time for each bridge is in that case 3*x, so 3*50ms=150ms, off time is 17*50ms=850ms, so 15% duty cycle.

With about 0.5ohms per coil and five coils in series, that is about 2.5ohms. And then each bridge drives 2 coil sets in series, so 1.25 ohm load. So your voltage should be around 5 volts (4amps per red/black output) plus whatever is lost over two transistors inside a bridge, which is probably another 2-3 volts or so. So don't take the voltage above 7-8 volts for now.

Just see if you can get the magnet to spin around at the desired speed of the Arduino sketch.

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 11, 2018, 08:33:20 AM
gotoluc:

Wonderful hard work, I know something about it :)

I wanted to write the same as Pierre that Arduino should be further away from the magnetic field as well as the control wires. Of course, it can work.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 11, 2018, 09:17:49 AM
gotoluc:

Wonderful hard work, I know something about it :)

I wanted to write the same as Pierre that Arduino should be further away from the magnetic field as well as the control wires. Of course, it can work.
Majority of the magnetic field will be contained within the steel and on the inside of the stator. Anything else is leakage and probably won't be large enough too cause any issues. Try it out to see if it works. If it doesn't you can always move the Arduino farther away from the stator.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 11, 2018, 09:30:47 AM
Majority of the magnetic field will be contained within the steel and on the inside of the stator. Anything else is leakage and probably won't be large enough too cause any issues. Try it out to see if it works. If it doesn't you can always move the Arduino farther away from the stator.
PmgR

Where the coils come out of the stator is a large magnetic field. But test this position Arduino.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 11, 2018, 09:36:26 AM
So don't take the voltage above 7-8 volts for now.


Is that possible when he uses 12V as gate pulses? His drain voltage has to be >=12V.

Luc, this is an art-work! Well done!!! How did you pull out your stator from motor's casing?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: shylo on April 11, 2018, 09:44:57 AM
Hi Luc,

Looks great, One question though, Pierre has 18 super caps (1/2 the 36 coils) , Should yours not have 15 half the 30? I only see ten.
Beautiful workmanship none the less.
Thanks artv
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 04:08:32 PM
Amazingly nice build Luc!

What you can do as a first experiment is mount a small magnet on an axis that can rotate and place it in the middle of the stator (take the rotor out) and upload the Arduino sketch with a 1Hz frequency (x=50 in your Arduino sketch). It will then take 3secs for the magnet to spin around once (or you can decrease the x value to something else if that is too slow).

Start with a voltage as low as possible so you don't overheat any H bridges. The on-time for each bridge is in that case 3*x, so 3*50ms=150ms, off time is 17*50ms=850ms, so 15% duty cycle.

With about 0.5ohms per coil and five coils in series, that is about 2.5ohms. And then each bridge drives 2 coil sets in series, so 1.25 ohm load. So your voltage should be around 5 volts (4amps per red/black output) plus whatever is lost over two transistors inside a bridge, which is probably another 2-3 volts or so. So don't take the voltage above 7-8 volts for now.

Just see if you can get the magnet to spin around at the desired speed of the Arduino sketch.

PmgR

Thanks PmgR and for all your help in the background, as I couldn't of done a solid state version without your assistance.
I'll first try with a magnet as you suggest.

gotoluc:

Wonderful hard work, I know something about it

I wanted to write the same as Pierre that Arduino should be further away from the magnetic field as well as the control wires. Of course, it can work.

Thanks r2fpl. I'm not planing to push the device anywhere close to what Pierre demonstrated like powering a 1kW microwave oven. I'll be happy if it can just sustain itself.
I also think like PmgR answered below that the majority of the magnetic field will be contained in the steel lamination core. So far in all my experiments I've never seen a magnetic field affect a solid state component. However, if I was using mechanical switching that's another story, as they cause RF and would most definitely not work in a close proximity as my design.

Majority of the magnetic field will be contained within the steel and on the inside of the stator. Anything else is leakage and probably won't be large enough too cause any issues. Try it out to see if it works. If it doesn't you can always move the Arduino farther away from the stator.
PmgR

That's the way I see and understand it as well. However, anyone using mechanical switching that would be a problem in close proximity as my design since the switch RF would most definitely cause problems for the Arduino.

Is that possible when he uses 12V as gate pulses? His drain voltage has to be >=12V.

Luc, this is an art-work! Well done!!! How did you pull out your stator from motor's casing?

I've tested these L298N and they operated all the way down to 4vdc.
Thanks. My stator and rotor came from a generator, so it's easy to take apart: https://youtu.be/iYullLkW9rc (https://youtu.be/iYullLkW9rc)


Hi Luc,

Looks great, One question though, Pierre has 18 super caps (1/2 the 36 coils) , Should yours not have 15 half the 30? I only see ten.
Beautiful workmanship none the less.
Thanks artv

The quantity of super caps is not important. What is most important is the Voltage, since each super cap can only handle 2.7vdc . The ones Pierre used has 6 mounted on one board, so he used 3 boards thinking he could go up to 48vdc.  When he first tested he realized that he only needed around 22 volts. He just didn't bother to remove the extra board.
As you noticed mine has 10, so it can handle up to 27vdc. However, I don't think I'll need to go to that high of an input voltage and can easily reduce the quantity which will boost their storage capacity since they're connected in series.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 11, 2018, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: Luc
However, I don't think I'll need to go to that high of an input voltage and can easily reduce the quantity which will boost their storage capacity since they're connected in series.


Does it? Consider an example.

Let's use 100 F, 2.7 V caps and put 4 in series. So we now have 25 F capacitance and 10.8 volts maximum. Energy storage capacity at max voltage will be E = (CV2)/2 = (25 x 10.8 x 10. 8) /2 = 1458 J.
Now let's remove one capacitor and calculate energy storage capacity for 3 in series. We now have 33.3 F capacitance and 8.1 volts maximum. Energy storage capacity at max voltage will be E = (33.3 x 8.1 x 8.1)/2 = 1092.4 J.

So while capacitance is increased by removing a capacitor from the series chain, the decrease in maximum voltage more than compensates, and energy storage capacity goes down. Makes sense: fewer capacitors, less energy storage.

However... at the same voltage, say 8.1 volts, the energy storage of the 4-series stack is only (25 x 8.1 x 8.1)/2 = 820.1 J.

So in that sense (equal voltages) the stack with fewer series caps does store more energy.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 11, 2018, 04:45:46 PM
This is an earth-shattering, paradigm-shifting, Nobel-prize-winning claim

I wish you good luck with the test results Luc!
Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 06:50:45 PM

Does it? Consider an example.

Let's use 100 F, 2.7 V caps and put 4 in series. So we now have 25 F capacitance and 10.8 volts maximum. Energy storage capacity at max voltage will be E = (CV2)/2 = (25 x 10.8 x 10. 8) /2 = 1458 J.
Now let's remove one capacitor and calculate energy storage capacity for 3 in series. We now have 33.3 F capacitance and 8.1 volts maximum. Energy storage capacity at max voltage will be E = (33.3 x 8.1 x 8.1)/2 = 1092.4 J.

So while capacitance is increased by removing a capacitor from the series chain, the decrease in maximum voltage more than compensates, and energy storage capacity goes down. Makes sense: fewer capacitors, less energy storage.

However... at the same voltage, say 8.1 volts, the energy storage of the 4-series stack is only (25 x 8.1 x 8.1)/2 = 820.1 J.

So in that sense (equal voltages) the stack with fewer series caps does store more energy.

Yes, you're right of course as far as total Joule energy value goes if you keep voltage the same. Sorry I didn't write in a way that makes sense to your education.

What I was trying to say is, the less capacitors you have in series the less you divide the capacitors rated Farad value.

Lets say my tests show I only need 10vdc. If I leave the 10 cap in series of 50 Farads each = 5 Farads total storage @ 10V = 250 Joules
However, if I remove 6 caps, I now have 4 caps in series of 50 Farads each = 12.5 Farads total storage @ 10V = 625 Joules
Do you now understand?

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 11, 2018, 08:56:17 PM
Those super cap boards are not just PCB's, they have active balancing circuitry to ensure even charge distribution.

This ensures that no single cap is taken over 2.7V during charging.

I have three of those boards.

See https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/analogue-linear-mixed-signal-ics/design-supercapacitor-charger-balancing-2014-08/

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 10:38:01 PM
First test with magnet as rotor. Without current limitation and magnet rotor the device consumes exactly 1 Amp at 3.50 Volts.

Fr. Premier test avec aimant comme rotor. Sans limitation de courant et rotor magnétique, l'appareil consomme exactement 1 ampère à 3,50 volts.


Video demo:
https://youtu.be/w_z7tcq2N9E (https://youtu.be/w_z7tcq2N9E)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on April 11, 2018, 10:54:01 PM
Great to see it rotating  :)

For the 'x' question...the one to change is the one without // in front of it, x = 5.
(at 3:33 in your video)
The line at the top which says 'int x = 0;' is what's called a variable declaration. It's saying that a variable called x will be an integer. If that wasn't there it wouldn't know what x was.
When you see // it means a comment, something the program doesn't use as it's code.
Another example would be:
// Hello Luc

 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 11:14:06 PM
Made one change and got an error uploading to Arduino

Video: https://youtu.be/1hS1KNXARLw
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 11, 2018, 11:14:51 PM
[/size]First test with magnet as rotor. Without current limitation and magnet rotor the device consumes exactly 1 Amp at 3.50 Volts.Fr. Premier test avec aimant comme rotor. Sans limitation de courant et rotor magnétique, l'appareil consomme exactement 1 ampère à 3,50 volts.
Video demo: https://youtu.be/w_z7tcq2N9E (https://youtu.be/w_z7tcq2N9E)[/size]
Hi Luc, very nice demonstration.

You need to change the line that says:

x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz

You can change it to any of the the lines below:
x=1;  // x=1ms, loop delay is 20ms, results in 50Hz loop speed, or 1/3*50Hz magnet spin speed
x=2;  // x=2ms, loop delay is 40ms, results in 25Hz loop speed, or 1/3*25Hz magnet spin speed
x=3;  // x=3ms, loop delay is 60ms, results in 16.66Hz loop speed, or 1/3*16.66Hz magnet spin speed
x=4;  // x=4ms, loop delay is 80ms, results in 12.5Hz loop speed, or 1/3*12.5Hz magnet spin speed
x=5;  // x=5ms,loop delay is 100ms, results in 10Hz loop speed, or 1/3*10Hz magnet spin speed
x=10;  // x=10ms, loop delay is 200ms results in 5Hz loop speed, or 1/3*5Hz magnet spin speed
x=20;  // x=20ms, loop delay is 400ms results in 2.5Hz loop speed, or 1/3*2.5Hz magnet spin speed
x=25;  // x=25ms, loop delay is 500ms results in 2Hz loop speed, or 1/3*2Hz magnet spin speed
x=50;  // x=50ms, loop delay is 1000ms results in 1Hz loop speed, or 1/3*1Hz magnet spin speed

I note that it takes three times looping to go around the stator one time, so the magnet speed is 1/3 of the loop speed. Currently the loop speed is set (x=5) at 10Hz, so your magnet is spinning at 1/3*10Hz=3.33Hz.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 11:28:28 PM
Hi Luc, very nice demonstration.

You need to change the line that says:

x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz

You can change it to any of the the lines below:
x=1;  // x=1ms, loop delay is 20ms, results in 50Hz loop speed, or 1/3*50Hz magnet spin speed
x=2;  // x=2ms, loop delay is 40ms, results in 25Hz loop speed, or 1/3*25Hz magnet spin speed
x=3;  // x=3ms, loop delay is 60ms, results in 16.66Hz loop speed, or 1/3*16.66Hz magnet spin speed
x=4;  // x=4ms, loop delay is 80ms, results in 12.5Hz loop speed, or 1/3*12.5Hz magnet spin speed
x=5;  // x=5ms,loop delay is 100ms, results in 10Hz loop speed, or 1/3*10Hz magnet spin speed
x=10;  // x=10ms, loop delay is 200ms results in 5Hz loop speed, or 1/3*5Hz magnet spin speed
x=20;  // x=20ms, loop delay is 400ms results in 2.5Hz loop speed, or 1/3*2.5Hz magnet spin speed
x=25;  // x=25ms, loop delay is 500ms results in 2Hz loop speed, or 1/3*2Hz magnet spin speed
x=50;  // x=50ms, loop delay is 1000ms results in 1Hz loop speed, or 1/3*1Hz magnet spin speed

I note that it takes three times looping to go around the stator one time, so the magnet speed is 1/3 of the loop speed. Currently the loop speed is set (x=5) at 10Hz, so your magnet is spinning at 1/3*10Hz=3.33Hz.
PmgR

Thanks

I changed line   x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz   to   x=50; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz   and got an upload error!

See Video: https://youtu.be/1hS1KNXARLw (https://youtu.be/1hS1KNXARLw)

What next?

Thanks for your help

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 11, 2018, 11:30:58 PM
Made one change and got an error uploading to Arduino

Video: https://youtu.be/1hS1KNXARLw (https://youtu.be/1hS1KNXARLw)
Luc, check the serial port settings in your laptop Arduino program (the program you upload the sketch with). Most likely the wrong serial port is selected so it can't talk to the Arduino. Also make sure the correct Arduino is selected: should be the 2560 which is the board you are using.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 11, 2018, 11:32:16 PM
L298 boards :    WARNING :

Connect IN1 to IN4 and IN2 to IN3 for full paralleling .
OUT1 to OUT4 and OUT2 to OUT3.
ENABLEA to ENABLEB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Connect IN1 to IN2 and IN3 to IN4 for semi paralleling .
OUT1 to OUT2 and OUT3 to OUT4.
ENABLEA and ENABLEB separated

Refer to datasheet:
http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/82/cc/3f/39/0a/29/4d/f0/CD00000240.pdf/files/CD00000240.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00000240.pdf (http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/82/cc/3f/39/0a/29/4d/f0/CD00000240.pdf/files/CD00000240.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00000240.pdf)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 11, 2018, 11:40:32 PM
Luc, check the serial port settings in your laptop Arduino program (the program you upload the sketch with). Most likely the wrong serial port is selected so it can't talk to the Arduino. Also make sure the correct Arduino is selected: should be the 2560 which is the board you are using.
PmgR

Yes, I've checked all that. It's the same laptop I used and all parameters are correctly selected.

Could it be when I change  x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz   to   x=50; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz  I also need to change the 100ms. f=10Hz to 1000ms. f=1Hz ?

Thanks
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 11, 2018, 11:55:44 PM
Yes, I've checked all that. It's the same laptop I used and all parameters are correctly selected.

Could it be when I change  x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz   to   x=50; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz  I also need to change the 100ms. f=10Hz to 1000ms. f=1Hz ?

Thanks
Luc
No, that doesn't matter. It's behind // which is a comment. Besides, the sketch compiles fine you said. Just doesn't upload. I suggest rebooting your laptop and unplugging and replugging the USB that goes to the Arduino. If you can't figure it out, I can assist you later tonight after I get home.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
Okay, thanks for helping while you're still at work.
I think there may be a usb port conflict.  I'm rebooting to try to resolve it.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on April 12, 2018, 12:02:21 AM
Yeah, it's just the port by the looks of it.
Nothing wrong with the code.
At the bottom of your screen it shows you've selected the right type of Arduino and indeed it compiles fine. The only thing different would be the Port.
Click 'Tools', then 'Port' and see what it says there...you should only have 1 or 2 to select from and it seems like it's picking the wrong one as default.

Another way, is to unplug the Arduino USB cable and plug it back in, the other port will then be selected. At least here on Linux Mint it does, from USB0 to USB1 even if it's the same device being plugged in and out.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on April 12, 2018, 02:01:52 AM
Yeah, it's just the port by the looks of it.
Nothing wrong with the code.
At the bottom of your screen it shows you've selected the right type of Arduino and indeed it compiles fine. The only thing different would be the Port.
Click 'Tools', then 'Port' and see what it says there...you should only have 1 or 2 to select from and it seems like it's picking the wrong one as default.

Another way, is to unplug the Arduino USB cable and plug it back in, the other port will then be selected. At least here on Linux Mint it does, from USB0 to USB1 even if it's the same device being plugged in and out.


I had a similar problem,  but by installing the "driver" and reinstall of the complete Arduino program resolved identifying the port connection identification... : ]
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on April 12, 2018, 03:52:30 AM
Might look into that.
It's worthwhile pointing out because of easily understood frustrations for new folks.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2018, 05:12:05 AM
Well, it looks like the Arduino board itself has a communication issue. The program is working but I can't upload any changes. See video.
So if someone can send me or buy me a replacement that would be great. Meanwhile I can test as is and need to know if I add a potentiometer (to vary frequency) is that part still in the program?

Fr. Eh bien, il semble que la carte Arduino elle-même a un problème de communication. Le programme fonctionne, mais je ne peux pas télécharger de modifications. Voir la vidéo
Donc si quelqu'un peut m'envoyer ou m'acheter un remplacement ce serait génial. En attendant je peux tester tel quel et j'ai besoin de savoir si j'ajoute un potentiomètre (pour faire varier la fréquence) cette partie est-elle encore dans le programme?

Video: https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 12, 2018, 05:27:00 AM
Well, it looks like the Arduino board itself has a communication issue. The program is working but I can't upload any changes. See video.
So if someone can send me or buy me a replacement that would be great. Meanwhile I can test as is and need to know if I add a potentiometer (to vary frequency) is that part still in the program?

Fr. Eh bien, il semble que la carte Arduino elle-même a un problème de communication. Le programme fonctionne, mais je ne peux pas télécharger de modifications. Voir la vidéo
Donc si quelqu'un peut m'envoyer ou m'acheter un remplacement ce serait génial. En attendant je peux tester tel quel et j'ai besoin de savoir si j'ajoute un potentiomètre (pour faire varier la fréquence) cette partie est-elle encore dans le programme?

Video: https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw (https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw)
One more thing you should check is the serial port baud rate. You can change this under the device manager in Windows. I am not sure what the rate should be for the Arduino, but try the following rates:

9600, 14400, 19200, 28800, 38400, 57600, or 115200

For the potentiometer, you can uncomment Pierre's old lines:



int y= analogRead(0); // transforme x en une valeur de 0 à 20 (millisecondes)
x= map(y,0,1000 ,1,100);

and then comment your x=50 line:
// x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz


The potentiometer has 3 leads. Two outer ones should be hooked up to GND and 5V and the center one should be hooked up to the analog 0 input.


Also, see: https://www.arduino.cc/reference/en/language/functions/analog-io/analogread/

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on April 12, 2018, 05:38:10 AM
Well, it looks like the Arduino board itself has a communication issue. The program is working but I can't upload any changes. See video.
So if someone can send me or buy me a replacement that would be great. Meanwhile I can test as is and need to know if I add a potentiometer (to vary frequency) is that part still in the program?

Fr. Eh bien, il semble que la carte Arduino elle-même a un problème de communication. Le programme fonctionne, mais je ne peux pas télécharger de modifications. Voir la vidéo
Donc si quelqu'un peut m'envoyer ou m'acheter un remplacement ce serait génial. En attendant je peux tester tel quel et j'ai besoin de savoir si j'ajoute un potentiomètre (pour faire varier la fréquence) cette partie est-elle encore dans le programme?



Video: https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw (https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw)



Options;
1). Remove board / UN-plug completely from device and re-program.

2).Add the following to the sketch....

void setup() {
  // initialize serial communications at 9600 bps:
  Serial.begin(9600);
}


 It initializes the serial connection at 9600 bits per second. Both sides of the serial connection (i.e. the Arduino and your computer) need to be set to use the same speed serial connection in order to get any sort of intelligible data. If there's a mismatch between what the two systems think the speed is then the data will be garbled.

9600 bits per second is the default for the Arduino, and is perfectly adequate for the majority of users, but you could change it to other speeds: Serial.begin(57600) would set the Arduino to transmit at 57600 bits per second. You'd need to set whatever software you're using on your computer (like the Arduino IDE's serial monitor) to the same speed in order to see the data being sent.

3) Looks like board is running when you re-programed, which is fine,  that can be done,  however Pierre may have been correct in pointing out the "field" may interfere with the board ?

That's all I have to comment... : {
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 12, 2018, 05:43:22 AM
Another thing to try is to plug in a wall-outlet power plug (9V or 12V) into the Arduino instead of depending on the laptop USB 5V. Maybe the thing needs more than 500mA of current when programming and the USB on your laptop is only providing 500mA max.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 12, 2018, 07:23:35 AM
gotoluc:

This is "normal" problem with arduino.

1.Check power from USB.
2.Add power to Arduino +5V from power supply.
3.Driver is corrupt, but see good in view. Must reinstall with this program: see attachments.
Check version arduino (if version china maybe driver still problem)


ad.3:
Option/List all devices
Select Arduino port from select bar
Press Replace Driver

If make 1,2,3 steps correct Arduino go to normal programme.

Is possible corrupt Arduino because changes fuse bit. Little possible but possible. You can save make DFU process but is very problematic for new users.





Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 12, 2018, 10:12:17 AM
I have noted that using pin mode on digital pin 1 is actually using the UART port bit TX1 used for USB communication.

Perhaps we should shift all 30/36 pins down one i.e. 2 to 31/37?

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 10:15:19 AM
Well, it looks like the Arduino board itself has a communication issue. The program is working but I can't upload any changes. See video.
So if someone can send me or buy me a replacement that would be great. Meanwhile I can test as is and need to know if I add a potentiometer (to vary frequency) is that part still in the program?

Fr. Eh bien, il semble que la carte Arduino elle-même a un problème de communication. Le programme fonctionne, mais je ne peux pas télécharger de modifications. Voir la vidéo
Donc si quelqu'un peut m'envoyer ou m'acheter un remplacement ce serait génial. En attendant je peux tester tel quel et j'ai besoin de savoir si j'ajoute un potentiomètre (pour faire varier la fréquence) cette partie est-elle encore dans le programme?

Video: https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw (https://youtu.be/8B2NOU0NaYw)

Luc, have you tried unplugging all of the OUTPUT connections to the Mega and then reprogramming? It is barely possible that the current draw is too high during programming with all of the outputs capable of drawing current.

The fact that you've tried several laptops without success may mean that there is something wrong with the Mega itself, OR that there is something about the way you have it connected to the rest of the circuitry. Before you replace the Mega let's at least rule out the external connections.

More to follow:
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 10:23:13 AM
One more thing you should check is the serial port baud rate. You can change this under the device manager in Windows. I am not sure what the rate should be for the Arduino, but try the following rates:

9600, 14400, 19200, 28800, 38400, 57600, or 115200

It is extremely unlikely that this is the cause. Especially since Luc has checked different versions of Windows on different machines, and his friend used an Apple computer running OSX and still failed. I have never seen this port speed setting in Windows to have an effect on uploading to the board.

Quote


For the potentiometer, you can uncomment Pierre's old lines:



int y= analogRead(0); // transforme x en une valeur de 0 à 20 (millisecondes)
x= map(y,0,1000 ,1,100);

and then comment your x=50 line:
// x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz


The potentiometer has 3 leads. Two outer ones should be hooked up to GND and 5V and the center one should be hooked up to the analog 0 input.


Also, see: https://www.arduino.cc/reference/en/language/functions/analog-io/analogread/ (https://www.arduino.cc/reference/en/language/functions/analog-io/analogread/)

PmgR

The ADC inputs of the Arduino return values between 0 (0 volts) and 1023 (5 volts, OR what is supplied to A_ref pin). So for full range of the pot setting the map() statement should go from 0 to 1023, not stop at 1000. Otherwise values of the pot when adjusted near the 5v end will give strange results.
Like this:   
x= map(y,0,1023 ,1,100);

Also, in my previous code revisions I've shown where this statement goes for realtime speed control (don't have to finish one full loop before speed setting takes effect).

More follows:



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 10:32:47 AM


Options;
1). Remove board / UN-plug completely from device and re-program.


I and others have also suggested this. It's a good idea before giving up totally on the Mega unit in use.

Quote

2).Add the following to the sketch....

void setup() {
  // initialize serial communications at 9600 bps:
  Serial.begin(9600);
}


 It initializes the serial connection at 9600 bits per second. Both sides of the serial connection (i.e. the Arduino and your computer) need to be set to use the same speed serial connection in order to get any sort of intelligible data. If there's a mismatch between what the two systems think the speed is then the data will be garbled.

9600 bits per second is the default for the Arduino, and is perfectly adequate for the majority of users, but you could change it to other speeds: Serial.begin(57600) would set the Arduino to transmit at 57600 bits per second. You'd need to set whatever software you're using on your computer (like the Arduino IDE's serial monitor) to the same speed in order to see the data being sent.


As far as  I can tell this use of the Serial communications system has nothing to do with uploading programs to the board. It enables serial communication to a serial monitor which can be accessed from the IDE, but then you have to send data to and from the serial monitor using write and read statements in the sketch.  Serial comm statements also slow the program down quite a bit. You can certainly try this but I would be amazed if it made any difference to the main problem here.

Quote

3) Looks like board is running when you re-programed, which is fine,  that can be done,  however Pierre may have been correct in pointing out the "field" may interfere with the board ?

That's all I have to comment... : {

Again, I think this is not a likely cause. I've never encountered _magnetic_ interference that affected the Arduino. Electrical interference is something else though.  I would worry about the USB cable picking up electrical noise from the system, and cleanliness of power supplied to the Arduino when the USB cable isn't in use.

By the way, the Arduino should NOT be powered through the +5v pin(s) unless you have absolutely stable regulated and filtered +5 volts to feed it. It is far better to supply +9 to +12 volts to the regular coaxial power jack so that the board's own VR circuitry can handle the power conditioning.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 10:38:57 AM
I have noted that using pin mode on digital pin 1 is actually using the UART port bit TX1 used for USB communication.

Perhaps we should shift all 30/36 pins down one i.e. 2 to 31/37?

Regards

L192

I have mentioned this before, because I have occasionally had problems using digital pins 0 and 1 for certain purposes. So I tend to avoid them if possible. However I've tested versions of the sketch (my versions of other versions!) on my local Mega using Pin 1 and didn't see any problems, with either running or uploading.  I would be surprised to find that the uploading problem is related to the use of Pin 1 in the sketch.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 12, 2018, 10:39:55 AM
Hello Luc,

in my opinion, the influence of the magnetic field is probably the cause of the problem.
The easiest way is to remove the magnetic field to transfer the program.
For that, maybe you just have to unplug the GND.

FR
à mon avis, l'influence du champ magnétique est probablement à l'origine du problème.
Le plus simple, est de supprimer le champ magnétique pour transférer le programme.
Pour cela, peut-être qu'il suffit de débrancher seulement la GND.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 10:43:02 AM
I would still like to see the _exact_ sketch that Luc is now running (or trying to run) so that I can check the sketch for problems on my Mega. I have both Linux and Windows computers that I can use to check for uploading problems related to the sketch (although there are not likely to be any.)

But please--- do post the exact sketch that is being used currently so that I can review it.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 12, 2018, 10:43:55 AM
in my opinion, the influence of the magnetic field is probably the cause of the problem.

There is no magnetic field when the program is not running. From Luc's video it clearly shows programmer interface issue (damaged usb/serial port or drivers)...

And when it iwill be running there are lots of ways to shield magnetic field from the Arduino.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 10:49:22 AM
Hello Luc,

in my opinion, the influence of the magnetic field is probably the cause of the problem.
The easiest way is to remove the magnetic field to transfer the program.
For that, maybe you just have to unplug the GND.

FR
à mon avis, l'influence du champ magnétique est probablement à l'origine du problème.
Le plus simple, est de supprimer le champ magnétique pour transférer le programme.
Pour cela, peut-être qu'il suffit de débrancher seulement la GND.

I disagree. I don't think that the magnetic field could be causing the problem. At least magnetic fields have never caused any problems with my own Arduinos. (I use UNOs, Megas, and ProMinis for many projects.)

However I _do_ think it is possible that something in the external circuitry and/or power supply may be causing the problem. So I'd like to see Luc try programming the Mega with it disconnected totally from the external circuitry. Then if the program uploads properly, the Mega can be reconnected to the external circuits and we can see what happens then. If the program will still not upload even with nothing connected to the Mega except the programming USB cable... AND if I can get the sketch to upload properly to my own Mega using Windows here at my lab... then we may suspect a hardware problem with Luc's Mega board.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 12, 2018, 11:57:12 AM
The untested code that I listed for 30 slots, would have required OR gates on the L298N enable inputs, otherwise there would be Output pin clashes for the enable lines.

I now have 5  unique sequences use for enable that avoid that issue.

I just mention this in case this code was used by anybody.

Regards

L192
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 12, 2018, 12:18:36 PM
I have noted that using pin mode on digital pin 1 is actually using the UART port bit TX1 used for USB communication.

Perhaps we should shift all 30/36 pins down one i.e. 2 to 31/37?

Regards

L192

I agree too !
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: dole on April 12, 2018, 12:38:36 PM
Definitely TX/RX problem (pin 0,1)
Solution:
Push reset baton and upload immediately or disconnect/connect and immediately upload
But probably same problem will still persist next time.
Do not use 0,1 

d.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 12, 2018, 12:55:25 PM
Yeah, it's just the port by the looks of it.
Nothing wrong with the code.
At the bottom of your screen it shows you've selected the right type of Arduino and indeed it compiles fine. The only thing different would be the Port.
Click 'Tools', then 'Port' and see what it says there...you should only have 1 or 2 to select from and it seems like it's picking the wrong one as default.

Another way, is to unplug the Arduino USB cable and plug it back in, the other port will then be selected. At least here on Linux Mint it does, from USB0 to USB1 even if it's the same device being plugged in and out.

With the Chinese 2560 boards USB is on Com 4 not 1, as you would expect from an original.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 12, 2018, 01:17:00 PM
With the Chinese 2560 boards USB is on Com 4 not 1, as you would expect from an original.

L192

Actually, with Windows especially, this will depend on several factors, like what else you have plugged in, where you have it all plugged in, the day of the week, and whether or not you've sacrificed a mouse to Micro$haft lately.

For example, I am looking at a fresh installation of the Arduino IDE on my Win7Pro laptop, and the choices offered to me in the Tools>Port menu are COM3 and COM11 (yes, COM Eleven) and the Mega is using COM11. I'm pretty sure if I plug it into a different USB port on the Lenovo laptop, a different COM port will be assigned. That's Windows messing with us, not the Arduino IDE.
(My Mega is an OSEPP brand, which is a Canadian company, but I can't tell where the board was actually manufactured.)
As long as the IDE is installed correctly, along with the drivers, the COM-to-USB connection should be automatic, and all the user needs to do is to identify which of the port choices in the Port menu correspond to the Arduino device you have connected.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 12, 2018, 02:32:34 PM
If pressing board reset restores USB comms, I would check C8, (missing or broken) assuming this is a CH340G board not an original board with FTDI in which case that would be C7.

This cap couples a line from the CH340G, to assert a reset and communication with the 2560.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 12, 2018, 02:51:27 PM
It is not only the magnetic field a possible source of interaction. Displacement currents move perpendicular to the mag field, charging any plate in that direction. In any case, a sheet of grounded copper underneath arduino will hopefully ground them.   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2018, 04:24:55 PM
Wow, that's a lot of communications about a failed Arduino com port.
Today I'm going to do some in out power power test at the fixed frequency it's presently working at.
If someone can write the same program for Popeller (shown in video) that would be great.
Thanks everyone for your help.

Fr. Wow, c'est beaucoup de communications sur un port de com Arduino échoué.
Aujourd'hui, je vais faire un test de puissance à la fréquence fixe sur laquelle il travaille actuellement.
Si quelqu'un peut écrire le même programme pour Popeller (montré dans la vidéo) ce serait génial.
Merci à tous pour votre aide.


Video: https://youtu.be/LAC33oRHGvs
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2018, 04:30:12 PM
Guys, please.  Input power and 5V power to H-Brige has always been off when I communicate with the Arduino. So there is no possibility this problem is related to any magnetic fields.

Fr.  s'il te plait. La puissance d'entrée et l'alimentation 5V de H-Bridge ont toujours été coupées lorsque je communique avec l'Arduino. Il n'y a donc aucune possibilité que ce problème soit lié à des champs magnétiques.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 12, 2018, 05:09:50 PM
I have noted that using pin mode on digital pin 1 is actually using the UART port bit TX1 used for USB communication.

Perhaps we should shift all 30/36 pins down one i.e. 2 to 31/37?

Regards

L192
This is a very good point. As soon as the Arduino exits the bootloader and enters the sketch, it will no longer be possible to communicate with it through the UART port as it is used in the sketch.
So Luc, take the board out of the setup so all external wires are disconnected, and try uploading immediately after resetting the board (I am not too familiar with this specific board, so not sure how long the delay is before the bootloader exits and or if there is a reset button you can press if the board is already powered on). Maybe there is another way to make it stay in the bootloader and not execute the current sketch.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 12, 2018, 05:14:02 PM
Actually, there is a reset button on the board, see attached image. Try pushing that and then immediately after uploading the sketch, or the other way around, start the sketch upload, then press the reset button.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 12, 2018, 05:16:24 PM
http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg519722/#msg519722

   !!! ZADIG !!!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 12, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
I stand corrected. The Arduino talks to the computer over its own USB pins, not a TX/RX UART, see the schematic here

https://www.arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-mega2560-schematic.pdf? (https://www.arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-mega2560-schematic.pdf?)

Only thing I can think of is that the Arduino does not stay long enough in the bootloader to establish communication with the PC. So try that reset button trick that I described in the previous post and play with the timing of pressing that button versus pressing the upload button on the PC.

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 12, 2018, 06:13:26 PM
I stand corrected. The Arduino talks to the computer over its own USB pins, not a TX/RX UART, see the schematic here

https://www.arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-mega2560-schematic.pdf? (https://www.arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-mega2560-schematic.pdf?)

Only thing I can think of is that the Arduino does not stay long enough in the bootloader to establish communication with the PC. So try that reset button trick that I described in the previous post and play with the timing of pressing that button versus pressing the upload button on the PC.

PmgR

Hi PmgR,

That's the schematic for the original arduino Mega 2560.

The Chinese imports use the CH340G chip for serial communication.

Tried to find a schematic for this board but failed.

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on April 12, 2018, 06:58:48 PM
All,

To maybe help sort out the the confusion, the 2560 board I shipped to Luc uses An Atmel Mega16U2 as compared to the original Arduino AtMega8u2 for USB communications.

Regards,
Pm
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2018, 07:15:51 PM
Actually, there is a reset button on the board, see attached image. Try pushing that and then immediately after uploading the sketch, or the other way around, start the sketch upload, then press the reset button.
PmgR

Good idea Pmgr and it worked. So now I have a successful high frequency upload. So before trying it again I'm going to do some (in out) power tests at this frequency.
When you get the chance can you please add the potentiometer function to the program you modified for me so I can have that available if my next upload is also successful.
The below video contains some scope shoots of the device operating.
Thanks for everyones help
Luc
 
Fr. Bonne idée Pmgr et ça marché. Alors maintenant, j'ai un téléchargement à haute fréquence réussie. Donc, avant d'essayer à nouveau, je vais faire des tests (in out) de puissance à cette fréquence.
Quand vous en avez l'opportunité, veuillez ajouter la fonction potentiomètre au programme que vous avez modifié pour que je puisse l'avoir si mon prochain téléchargement réussit.
La vidéo ci-dessous contient quelques prises d'oscilloscope de l'appareil en fonctionnement.
Merci pour l'aide de tout le monde
Luc

Video demo:  https://youtu.be/I0Rjjhuayf4
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: forest on April 12, 2018, 07:28:51 PM
Use linux, not need drivers.


Sorry, I see it's fixed now
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 12, 2018, 07:48:32 PM
When you get the chance can you please add the potentiometer function to the program you modified for me so I can have that available if my next upload is also successful.
Attached is the sketch with the potentiometer added back in (other line with x=5 commented out).
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on April 12, 2018, 08:27:02 PM
Hi Luc,

Impressive build.

I rewrote an alternative version to be more adaptive, it compiled fine but haven't tested on hardware. The only line you have to change is:

const int msDelay = 0;

When set to 0 it will take the delay value from the attached potentiometer.
When set to anything other than zero it will use that for the delay in milliseconds.

I noticed the L298n can switch down to the microseconds but doesn't like long delays >100ms maybe it's the board or my setup but it slopes off quickly. So delay() could be replaced with delayMicroseconds() later on.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2018, 10:46:26 PM
First output coil test

Fr. Premier test de bobine de sortie

Video demo:  https://youtu.be/9ybgmyOsFdM
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 12, 2018, 11:10:53 PM
First output coil test
Video demo:  https://youtu.be/9ybgmyOsFdM (https://youtu.be/9ybgmyOsFdM)

Nice test Luc :)
In regards to polarities on output core you probably will want some rotating magnetic field detection probes installed. That might be multiple hall sensors inside of diamagnetic material pointing to different directions for seeing 360 degrees rotation or similar setup.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2018, 01:07:23 AM
Thanks DreamThinkBuild

The below video is the last for today and the results of reducing the center I core to contact with 4 I stator surfaces. It's a small improvement but not as good as I was hoping for.

Fr.  La vidéo ci-dessous est la dernière pour aujourd'hui et les résultats de la réduction du noyau centre I à contacter avec 4 surfaces de I dustator. C'est une petite amélioration mais pas aussi bonne que j'espérais.

Video demo:  https://youtu.be/EIdsx61qGec
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 13, 2018, 01:48:57 AM
Luc
I saw on the scope that the peak voltage across your primary coils?? was some volts below your feeding voltage so some power loss is hiding somewere.

In my over unity contraptions I have to use a higher reisistance value to the  resistive load, than  the resistance giving maximum power, to come above the ingoing power. And a short  circut (or open) output barely affected the input parameters.

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2018, 02:19:45 AM
Luc
I saw on the scope that the peak voltage across your primary coils?? was some volts below your feeding voltage so some power loss is hiding somewere.

In my over unity contraptions I have to use a higher reisistance value to the  resistive load, than  the resistance giving maximum power, to come above the ingoing power. And a short  circut (or open) output barely affected the input parameters.

Regards Arne

Those voltage readings are 2 of the Arduino outputs triggers to the H=Bridges. They are there for reference.

Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 13, 2018, 06:14:34 AM
Hi Luc
I saw and translated Pierre's reply on your newest video he was asking what are you doing with your coils "return" and said this is the secret if you want it to work.
So will guess he means the backemf/recoil/flyback diodes...
Are you relying on the internal diodes in the H bridges to do this work - and can these actually work to fill the caps??
I would think the internal diodes would only suppress spark flash/backemf/recoil to prevent switching damage and not serve any function to be filling up caps in overunity fashion...
My feelings have always been the backemf/recoil from pulsed inductor is actually much
more power and energy than what the primary power into inductor is, but we just do not know how to harness and contain and release this energy into loads very well since everyone has been brainwashed to thinking this is only destructive transients that needs to be suppressed and maybe there is something about Pierres device that makes this backwards spikey energy manifest to extreme overunity but I don't know as is usual ....anyways I will guess you need a lot of very fast steering diodes added to your machine is what he is saying....two for each relay...
Also a big spool of 20 GA magnet wire would really help too if someone can donate this your way to wind that rotor like Pierre did.
So GREAT WORK keep going and don't stop  too long to admire how beautiful your creation is!















Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 13, 2018, 09:16:51 AM

Just received PM from MH:

I tried posting some technical comments on Luc's clip but he deleted them right away and accused me of trolling.  It must be miserable to live in an Orwellian nightmare sometimes, sort of like the movie Fahrenheit 451.  So let's break out of the straitjacket and actually use our critical thinking skills and rebel against the thought-control oppressors that want to stomp out free thought and burn books, much to the chagrin of Luc.Here you go, think free and live free or get zapped by a discharging inductor:So you have done the build and you have the working code to energize the coils to make a rotating magnetic field. So now it all comes down to basics. The energizing coils will put flux through the stationary rotor. Naturally when the coils that line up with the stationary rotor are energized, then more flux passes through the stationary rotor. By the same token, the coils that do not line up with the stationary rotor put zero or very little flux through the stationary rotor. Makes sense, correct? So when the Arduino energizes these coils that don't line up with the stationary rotor, that represents the burning of input power with no real output power. It represents power being poured down the drain and all that it really does is heat the coils. Let's say for the sake of argument you are losing 1/4 of your input power to heat because of the energizing of the coils that don't line up with the stationary rotor. You have enough experience under your belt such that I don't think that you are going to disagree with me on this critical point. Pierre has already said the classic line, collect the back-EMF pulses from all of the coils. You have been though that exercise 100 times by now, and you know there is no magic there and you are not even close to considering changing your H-bridge setup to collect back-EMF pulse energy into a capacitor. That's a dead horse that you have seen too many times by now such that you can almost do it in your sleep.So let's talk about the output now. You have a coil wrapped around the stationary rotor and that is where you get the output from the device. So we are talking about the basic nuts and bolts of a generator here. The more turns you use for the output coil, the higher the voltage output. And of course the higher the total resistance of the wire. The more turns you have, the higher the voltage, and therefore the higher value of load resistor the output coil can drive. In general terms, let's suppose that you wrap enough turns where the wire resistance is 10 ohms. That implies that you will get the most output power when you have an impedance-matching load resistor of 10 ohms. However, a note of caution here in the sense that the 10-ohm coil will also dissipate the same amount of power as the 10-ohm load resistor, which means right away that you are only 50% efficient in getting output power from the coil. If you increase the load resistor to say 30 ohms, you will get less total output power in the load resistor, and less dissipated power in the 10-ohm resistance of the coil, giving you a more efficient coil-to-load resistor output power efficiency, but less total output power. So what's the take-away? The take-away is to experiment with different load resistors where the load resistor is less than the coil resistance, equal to the coil resistance, and greater than the coil resistance.So this glorified Arduino setup with the fancy rotating magnetic field is doing on primary thing - putting changing flux through the stationary rotor.  When you wrap a coil around the stationary rotor and have no load resistor you are seeing the pure EMF being generated by the output coil.  That EMF waveform represents the rate of change of magnetic flux through the stationary rotor with respect to time.  Also known as the first derivative of the flux with respect to time.  I don't know if Luc's DSO has an integration function.  Why do you want the integration function?  The answer is that if you integrate on the EMF waveform then you will get a waveform for the actual amount of flux that is passing through the stationary rotor from the Arduino setup.  Even if you don't have an integration function in the DSO, you can do it by hand on paper.  Why do you do it?  Because it is interesting to know how much flux is passing through the stationary rotor.Let's discuss the output when there is an appropriate load resistor.  When there is a lot of current flowing through the load resistor that means that the stator coils that are lined up with the stationary rotor are doing real work, and there should be a corresponding increased current draw when those coils are doing work.  That implies that when you scope the current draw for the whole device you should see lower current draw for the stator coils that don't line up with the stationary rotor (the "dead" current draw that does nothing but heat the stator coils) and increased current draw for the stator coils that do line up with the stationary rotor.Wrapping more turns around the stationary rotor will NOT give you more output power.  That is just an old wives' tale.  The amount of power you can extract from the stationary rotor is dependent on the amount of changing flux that passes though the rotor, not the amount of turns.  The amount of turns determines the best value for the load resistor, that's all.So, let's ballpark the maximum output power to input power efficiency for this device.  I have already stated it above.  It's roughly 75% efficient for the stator coils because half of them are "dead" and do nothing.  I am saying this because the unloaded stator coils that do nothing will actually draw very little current, and I am bundling in all of the H-bridge overhead.  Then we know on the output coil side when you use an impedance matching load for maximum power output the efficiency is maximum 50%.  So the ballpark efficiency will be 0.75 x 0.5 = less than 37% efficient.That's a lot of spicy meatballs worth of work with no secret spicy meatball sauce in sight to get less than 37% efficiency.


Due that is standard response from typical conventional science standpoint I am sure the similar response would be from any theorists.


The problem we all having are case of alternators where no single permanent magnet exists. In classic example such as car we use battery to energize alternator and yet still getting charged battery from moving magnetic fields. If you replace moving rotor to moving magnetic fields on stator and eliminate any need of kinetic force no one can exactly tell what results will be. The classic theory do not have such cases and this is where Pierre's situation is really interesting to look for answers.


Sorry for long post but I think the positive criticism is also needed here.


Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 13, 2018, 10:04:55 AM
Hi Luc
I saw and translated Pierre's reply on your newest video he was asking what are you doing with your coils "return" and said this is the secret if you want it to work.
So will guess he means the backemf/recoil/flyback diodes...
In typical stepper motors we have KHz range pulsed DC going to the coils. This maximizes BEMF. Yet in Pierre's case there is no such thing due mechanical switching in relays.
Unless there is autotransformer mode going inside of the coils on stator the power consumption is much greater than BEMF being returned.
So it is good question what Pierre had in mind on that response.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 13, 2018, 10:24:54 AM
T-1000    Reply #397
You have exactly pinpointed "the cat's tail" that one we are chasing.

Reply #398 For each step as we move the rotating magnetic field we also 'kills' two magnetic fields (coils) up and running without harnessing??

/Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 13, 2018, 11:02:16 AM
Those voltage readings are 2 of the Arduino outputs triggers to the H=Bridges. They are there for reference.

Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

How did you connect the L298N boards, as H bridges, or as half bridges?

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 13, 2018, 01:08:14 PM
Hi Luc
I saw and translated Pierre's reply on your newest video he was asking what are you doing with your coils "return" and said this is the secret if you want it to work.
So will guess he means the backemf/recoil/flyback diodes...

If this was the case we could do it with just a simple coil wrapped on a simple core. But IMHO this is not the case and never was. 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 13, 2018, 04:45:45 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

How did you connect the L298N boards, as H bridges, or as half bridges?

Regards

L192
Please see attached image for how they are hooked up. Red is output 1-2 of H-bridge, black is output 3-4 of H-bridge.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 13, 2018, 07:19:35 PM
Continuing on alternator conversion - http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Wiring/Part2/ (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Wiring/Part2/)


Pierre's simulated field movement makes three phases around stator. If we make output coil in same way as in alternator and have 3 overlapping coils on stator with outputs from each junction this would complete the cycle. Then just create 3 phase switching around 36 (3x12) stator coil contacts and take output on stationary rotor.


Would be really interesting to see what you guys could get on output...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 13, 2018, 08:19:10 PM
My connection scheme is a little different, I only switch one half bridge at a time on the same board. This reduces the heat dissipation on each L298N.
Also I use the enable lines to switch the transistors, so the high and low side transistors float when enable is low

I achieved a reasonable rotor output waveform until I pushed the setup too hard at about 4A per half bridge. This was after about 20 mins of running. This took out at least 5-6 boards, after one L298N exploded. No heatsink was over about 40 deg C.

I had done this before without problem however , this time we have the shorted coils due to the overlap. In each coil line you could see the overlap current step.

I rechecked all connections and drive signals, everything appears to be in order. There were no apparent voltage spikes on the power +rail. Each board had its +/- power lines taken from a distribution strip with heavy duty cable linking to the super caps.

I have  three spare boards but  I am thinking that I will use relays next.

Disappointed but not surprised.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 13, 2018, 09:18:35 PM
I achieved a reasonable rotor output waveform until I pushed the setup too hard at about 4A per half bridge. This was after about 20 mins of running. This took out at least 5-6 boards, after one L298N exploded. No heatsink was over about 40 deg C.
L192

If you use just few coils instead of 12 in series for single phase it will take lots of amps and will be energy waste.
Also if you watch Pierre's video and see how coils are made they are overlapping just like in car alternator and can be used with 3x12 sets.

EDIT: In Pierre's video I noticed 5 overlapping coils when started from 1st then counted to 5th position going back to stator.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 13, 2018, 10:00:25 PM
L192

If you use just few coils instead of 12 in series for single phase it will take lots of amps and will be energy waste.
Also if you watch Pierre's video and see how coils are made they are overlapping just like in car alternator and can be used with 3x12 sets.

EDIT: In Pierre's video I noticed 5 overlapping coils when started from 1st then counted to 5th position going back to stator.

Hi T-1000,

My stator is wound for 30 slots with a 5 coil pole, so 30 coils in a series loop, lapped at a 5 pole pitch.
Basically the 30 slot version of Pierres 36 slot.

36 Turns per coil.

The problem is the harmonics created with this scheme.

If you pulse just a single set of 5 coils with overlap turned off, you can  achieve 80 volts on the rotor with dim illumination of a 25V 230V lamp. Note, this rotor has the  (original 230V generator windings). This is achieved with a 2amp drive.

As soon as you start introducing other coils group, the harmonics start to cause destructive cancellation. I  would be not be surprised if this is what caused the L298N failure(s).

Attached is the test I conducted with 6 coils (no overlap)

Regards

L192

 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 13, 2018, 10:12:37 PM
My connection scheme is a little different, I only switch one half bridge at a time on the same board. This reduces the heat dissipation on each L298N.
Also I use the enable lines to switch the transistors, so the high and low side transistors float when enable is low

I achieved a reasonable rotor output waveform until I pushed the setup too hard at about 4A per half bridge. This was after about 20 mins of running. This took out at least 5-6 boards, after one L298N exploded. No heatsink was over about 40 deg C.

I had done this before without problem however , this time we have the shorted coils due to the overlap. In each coil line you could see the overlap current step.

I rechecked all connections and drive signals, everything appears to be in order. There were no apparent voltage spikes on the power +rail. Each board had its +/- power lines taken from a distribution strip with heavy duty cable linking to the super caps.

I have  three spare boards but  I am thinking that I will use relays next.

Disappointed but not surprised.

L192
Luc has similar setup: H bridges are switched by the EN pins (both tied together going to Arduino). Inputs 1-2 are tied to Vcc, inputs 3 and 4 to GND, so bridges are floating as well when Arduino signal is low.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 13, 2018, 11:39:27 PM
Hi T-1000,

My stator is wound for 30 slots with a 5 coil pole, so 30 coils in a series loop, lapped at a 5 pole pitch.
Basically the 30 slot version of Pierres 36 slot.

36 Turns per coil.

The problem is the harmonics created with this scheme.

If you pulse just a single set of 5 coils with overlap turned off, you can  achieve 80 volts on the rotor with dim illumination of a 25V 230V lamp. Note, this rotor has the  (original 230V generator windings). This is achieved with a 2amp drive.

As soon as you start introducing other coils group, the harmonics start to cause destructive cancellation. I  would be not be surprised if this is what caused the L298N failure(s).

I am assuming you still have 3 coils overlapping each other and if lets say:
1) the coil A begin is on 1st pin the coil end is on 4th?
2) the coil B begin is on 2nd pin the coil end is on 5th?
3) the coil C begin is on 3th pin the coil end is on 6th?

Please remind me your coils arrangement on stator.

The reason why am asking is how we make three phase on alternator stator. Please see diagram attached.
You also may try to think what resulting polarity should be on the output coil core which is covering positions from 1th to 3th and from 15th to 18th.
Ideally we should do from 3 phase to 1 phase conversion.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 12:17:28 AM
I am assuming you still have 3 coils overlapping each other and if lets say:
1) the coil A begin is on 1st pin the coil end is on 4th?
2) the coil B begin is on 2nd pin the coil end is on 5th?
3) the coil C begin is on 3th pin the coil end is on 6th?

Please remind me your coils arrangement on stator.

The reason why am asking is how we make three phase on alternator stator. Please see diagram attached.
You also may try to think what resulting polarity should be on the output coil core which is covering positions from 1th to 3th and from 15th to 18th.
Ideally we should do from 3 phase to 1 phase conversion.

Hi T-1000,

My coils bridge 4 poles, whereas Gotolucs stator bridge 5 poles.

5 coils per N/S pole overlapped 1 slot.


Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 14, 2018, 02:45:24 AM
Hi T-1000,

My coils bridge 4 poles, whereas Gotolucs stator bridge 5 poles.

5 coils per N/S pole overlapped 1 slot.


Regards

L192

Hi L192,

I just tried to see in Excel spreadsheet what output would be like when merging 3 phase arrangement over different amounts of coils.
No joy for 2/4 coils for results. The best was 3 rolling coils around ring.

Please see spreadsheet attached. Maybe you will have some ideas how to properly simulate moving magnetic fields around the ring without too much losses.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 05:45:40 AM
My coils bridge 4 poles, whereas Gotolucs stator bridge 5 poles.

5 coils per N/S pole overlapped 1 slot.

Regards

L192

Looks like I have a problem.  I spaced my coils 6 slot wide and I'm having terrible results.  PmgR said it shouldn't matter but maybe it does?...  I need opinions as something is not right.

See results: https://youtu.be/aFQB-WOx-Oc (https://youtu.be/aFQB-WOx-Oc)

I think we need to use the Propeller controller instead of the Arduino. Any reason why it can't be used?

The below is the program Pmgr modified for me:

/*
  Blink  This example code is in the public domain.
 
  modified 8 May 2014
  by Scott Fitzgerald
 */
 
/* modified by PmgR 4/6/2018 to accomodate 30coil stator */
 
// the setup function runs once when you press reset or power the board
void setup() {
  pinMode( 1, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 2, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 3, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 4, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 5, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 6, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 7, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 8, OUTPUT);
  pinMode( 9, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(10, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(11, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(12, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(13, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(14, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(15, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(16, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(17, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(18, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(19, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(20, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(21, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(22, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(23, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(24, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(25, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(26, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(27, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(28, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(29, OUTPUT);
  pinMode(30, OUTPUT);
}
 
int x = 0;
 
// the loop function runs over and over again forever
void loop(){
 
  /*Old Pierre code*/
  int y= analogRead(0); //Read out potentiometer setting
  x= map(y,0,1024,1,100); //Map to a delay value from 1ms (50Hz loop speed, 1/3*50Hz magnet speed) to 100ms (0.5Hz loop speed, 1/3*0.5Hz magnet speed).
 
  /* PmgR modifications below*/
  // Change this x delay number to something else to change the frequency:
  // 1ms results in 50Hz
  // 2ms results in 25Hz
  // 3ms results in 16.66Hz
  // 4ms results in 12.5Hz
  // 5ms results in 10Hz
  // 10ms results in 5Hz
  // x=1; //total loop delay is 20*x = 20ms. f=50Hz
  // x=5; //total loop delay is 20*x = 100ms. f=10Hz
 
  digitalWrite( 1,HIGH), digitalWrite(11,HIGH), digitalWrite(21,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite(10, LOW), digitalWrite(20, LOW), digitalWrite(30, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 2,HIGH), digitalWrite(12,HIGH), digitalWrite(22,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 1, LOW), digitalWrite(11, LOW), digitalWrite(21, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 3,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(23,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 2, LOW), digitalWrite(12, LOW), digitalWrite(22, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 4,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(24,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 3, LOW), digitalWrite(13, LOW), digitalWrite(23, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 5,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 4, LOW), digitalWrite(14, LOW), digitalWrite(24, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 6,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 5, LOW), digitalWrite(15, LOW), digitalWrite(25, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 7,HIGH), digitalWrite(17,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 6, LOW), digitalWrite(16, LOW), digitalWrite(26, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 8,HIGH), digitalWrite(18,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 7, LOW), digitalWrite(17, LOW), digitalWrite(27, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 9,HIGH), digitalWrite(19,HIGH), digitalWrite(29,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 8, LOW), digitalWrite(18, LOW), digitalWrite(28, LOW);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite(10,HIGH), digitalWrite(20,HIGH), digitalWrite(30,HIGH);
  delay(x);
  digitalWrite( 9, LOW), digitalWrite(19, LOW), digitalWrite(29, LOW);
  delay(x);
 
}
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 14, 2018, 07:11:35 AM
Guys what do you think about the "return" of the coils as Pierre suggested to work on?

In addition if you remember we were wondering what frequency Pierre's meter had measured. We saw the 60Hz but we didn't know if his meter was counting the coil stepping. So if it is possible for Luc or L192 to check this out.

Regards
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 08:58:02 AM
Guys what do you think about the "return" of the coils as Pierre suggested to work on?

In addition if you remember we were wondering what frequency Pierre's meter had measured. We saw the 60Hz but we didn't know if his meter was counting the coil stepping. So if it is possible for Luc or L192 to check this out.

Regards

Really no coils turn off as such. The previous lead coil just gets a polarity change, so it has a current path through the coils prior to it, back to the next low side switch.

I checked with just a 5 coil group and there is no recovery current back to the supply from the L298N board, while the coils are connected in a series loop.

If you break the coil loop then coil recovery current appears on the L298N supply, back to the cap bank.

L192 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 14, 2018, 09:29:20 AM
Looks like I have a problem.  I spaced my coils 6 slot wide and I'm having terrible results.  PmgR said it shouldn't matter but maybe it does?...  I need opinions as something is not right.

See results: https://youtu.be/aFQB-WOx-Oc (https://youtu.be/aFQB-WOx-Oc)

Luc, how did you connect the LEDs? Did you use a serial resistor with them? If not, each of them is probably at least drawing 20-30mA if not more. Multiply that with 30 and you are drawing 750mA. The Arduino can't supply that and the computer USB can't supply that either (probably only 500mA), yet the battery can supply the current, but the Arduino is turning on and off (Arduino fuse on board is probably heating up and disconnecting; I believe that board has a thermal 500mA fuse).

You should remove your LEDs as the Arduino can't supply that much current directly. Even with a series resistor in place, it might not be able to handle it. This is also why the USB no longer shows up at your computer. The Arduino board simply can't handle the current load and so everything gets messed up.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 14, 2018, 09:35:01 AM

If you break the coil loop then coil recovery current appears on the L298N supply, back to the cap bank.

L192

Thanks L192.
By breaking the loop do you mean keeping one coil off between N and S poles?

Luc
As you correctly said, Leds are an unnecessary load for your Arduino outputs, which demand more total current than your Arduino can provide. 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 14, 2018, 09:43:30 AM
Guys what do you think about the "return" of the coils as Pierre suggested to work on?

In addition if you remember we were wondering what frequency Pierre's meter had measured. We saw the 60Hz but we didn't know if his meter was counting the coil stepping. So if it is possible for Luc or L192 to check this out.

Regards
Luc's H-bridges have recovery diodes on them and Luc also shows in his video the negative current (current return back to the source).
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 09:45:25 AM
Hi Jeg,

I mean just opening one coil junction, so the coils are not looped.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MenofFather on April 14, 2018, 10:36:19 AM
Guys what do you think about the "return" of the coils as Pierre suggested to work on?



Regards
i think, return is back emf going back to source.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 14, 2018, 10:46:34 AM
i think, return is back emf going back to source.

From diodes and coils.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Thank you guys!

Personally i don't think that by return he means the recovering of the flyback spikes. This by itself alone is not enough to overcome the input consumption. Especially when we speak of about X10 energy amplification.     
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
The first scope shot shows the coil current including the low side switch period.

So just 5 coils switching no overlap.

The second shot shows the board supply current.
Note the low side switch is on another board so you don't see that current.
No sign of any recovery current to the cap bank.
Perhaps the local cap on the board is taking this charge, so it does not appear on the supply rail?

I disconnected the loop and it made no difference, so I was wrong about that.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 14, 2018, 11:23:13 AM
Luc, we have mentioned before that the maximum rated continuous current output of the Mega is 200 mA total. You definitely should be using a current-limiting resistor in series with _each_ LED to limit the current to something like 5 mA per LED. With modern bright LEDs this will be plenty bright for visual display purposes. Even though you aren't turning on all your LEDs at once, you still need some current limiting for the LEDs. For a Green LED with a Vf of say 1.8 V, and the 5 V supply, you need to calculate the resistor value like this: R=V/I so R =(Vsupply - Vf)/5 mA = (5-1. 8) /0.005 = 640 ohms. So use a resistor value close to this for each LED. (I'm using 470 ohms on my test board.) This way even if all 30 LEDs are on the system will draw 150 mA, well below the total limit. (The speed control pot will draw a little current also but if you use a reasonable sized pot this will be negligible.)

It is possible that your uploading and intermittent problems have to do with the high current draw. (At fast speeds it "looks like" all LEDs are on at once, causing the thermal overload problem.) This is why I suggested earlier that you try the uploading with all external circuitry disconnected from the Mega. If this solves your uploading problem then you will know the cause, and can most probably cure it with adding current-limiting resistors to all your LEDs.

Driving a mosfet, as has been pointed out before, doesn't need much current usually. So you should be able to drive the LED+resistor, and the mosfet, for each of the 30 switches with no additional problem, once the LED current is limited.

There is no need to switch to the Propeller system. It will have similar output current restrictions, and it uses a different IDE interface and IIRC it uses a variant of the BASIC programming language. While any program can be written in just about any language.... I think you will have more help available if you stick to the Arduino system and the C++ language. If it turns out that you have a defective Mega we can arrange for you to get a new one. If it turns out that you need more current than the raw Arduino can supply you can always put in current-amplification transistors between the Arduino outputs and the mosfets (or H bridges or relays, whatever).

But FIRST THINGS FIRST, try uploading to the Mega with _all external circuitry disconnected_ to see if the current draw is really the problem.
If it works fine this way, then you can probably cure the present problem simply by adding the current-limiting resistors to each LED.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 14, 2018, 12:45:13 PM
Looks like I have a problem.  I spaced my coils 6 slot wide and I'm having terrible results.  PmgR said it shouldn't matter but maybe it does?...  I need opinions as something is not right.

See results: https://youtu.be/aFQB-WOx-Oc (https://youtu.be/aFQB-WOx-Oc)
Hi Luc,

I am finding your coils aligment do not match Pierre's winding style.
Your setup have 2 coils in single slot while Pierre made just 1. Please see video screenshot attached.

The second very important thing to remember - the magnetic field strentgh weakens to the distance from coils squared. Which means in your setup you need to put out really strong magnetic field on stator to reach coil in the middle. Which also means the bare minimum power required will be high to induce current on the output. This is where bank of supercaps may play crucial role.

The third thing, when you attach 12V battery I suspect internal Arduino 5V stabilizer is messing up or is partially burned out. You may diagnose its issues or make external circuit to cope with power consumption on LEDs/etc. Personally I would introduce mosfet drivers to output transistors when driving coils.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 12:59:55 PM
Hi Luc,

I am finding your coils aligment do not match Pierre's winding style.
Your setup have 2 coils in single slot while Pierre made just 1. Please see video screenshot attached.

The second very important thing to remember - the magnetic field strentgh weakens to the distance from coils squared. Which means in your setup you need to put out really strong magnetic field on stator to reach coil in the middle. Which also means the bare minimum power required will be high to induce current on the output. This is where bank of supercaps may play crucial role.

The third thing, when you attach 12V battery I suspect internal Arduino 5V stabilizer is messing up or is partially burned out. You may diagnose its issues or make external circuit to cope with power consumption on LEDs/etc. Personally I would introduce mosfet drivers to output transistors when driving coils.

Cheers!

Re post 410 in the other thread.
These were the numbers that Pierre provided.

 1-6,2-7,3-8,4-9,5-10,6-11,7-12,8-13,9-14,10-15,11-16, 12-17,13-18,14-19,15-20,16-21,17-22,18-23,19-24,20-25,21-26,22-27,23-28,24- 29,25-30,26-31,27-32,28-33,29-34,30-35,31-36,32-1,33-2,34-3,35-4,36-5

There are two coils in each slot.
Pierre's windings are very tight so you don't  see the second coil entries behind the first.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 14, 2018, 01:10:43 PM
Pierre's windings are very tight so you don't  see the second coil entries behind the first.

L192
Which is critical point in regards to magnetic field polarity. The closest to the center you see are just 1 way wiring making 1 magnet pole. The other coils looking to the outside of the stator make second pole.
So it is like magnet N/S looking towards center. When 2 coils are activated at once that makes N+N/S+S magnetic aligment towards center. A bit of tease for this case - the aligment of magnets in E. Leedskalnin generator in Coral castle - http://www.leedskalnin.com/LeedskalninImageArchive.html .

P.S> 1 slot I ment are 1 slot looking towards center and 1 slot looking towards outside of the stator.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 03:48:32 PM
Luc, how did you connect the LEDs? Did you use a serial resistor with them? If not, each of them is probably at least drawing 20-30mA if not more. Multiply that with 30 and you are drawing 750mA. The Arduino can't supply that and the computer USB can't supply that either (probably only 500mA), yet the battery can supply the current, but the Arduino is turning on and off (Arduino fuse on board is probably heating up and disconnecting; I believe that board has a thermal 500mA fuse).

Yes, I kind of figured the LED's are a little too much current demand for the Arduino. Are there LED's that use less current?

You should remove your LEDs as the Arduino can't supply that much current directly. Even with a series resistor in place, it might not be able to handle it. This is also why the USB no longer shows up at your computer. The Arduino board simply can't handle the current load and so everything gets messed up.
PmgR

Sorry, that's not why the USB no longer shows up at your computer. I remove the ground between Arduino and the L298N which shuts off the load on the Arduino and no difference.
I've had nothing but communications errors and problems with this Chinese Arduino version right from day one (new out of the box). Only ever got 2 successful uploads out of 60 tries.
It needs to be replaced, period.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
Luc, we have mentioned before that the maximum rated continuous current output of the Mega is 200 mA total. You definitely should be using a current-limiting resistor in series with _each_ LED to limit the current to something like 5 mA per LED. With modern bright LEDs this will be plenty bright for visual display purposes. Even though you aren't turning on all your LEDs at once, you still need some current limiting for the LEDs. For a Green LED with a Vf of say 1.8 V, and the 5 V supply, you need to calculate the resistor value like this: R=V/I so R =(Vsupply - Vf)/5 mA = (5-1. 8) /0.005 = 640 ohms. So use a resistor value close to this for each LED. (I'm using 470 ohms on my test board.) This way even if all 30 LEDs are on the system will draw 150 mA, well below the total limit. (The speed control pot will draw a little current also but if you use a reasonable sized pot this will be negligible.)

It is possible that your uploading and intermittent problems have to do with the high current draw. (At fast speeds it "looks like" all LEDs are on at once, causing the thermal overload problem.) This is why I suggested earlier that you try the uploading with all external circuitry disconnected from the Mega. If this solves your uploading problem then you will know the cause, and can most probably cure it with adding current-limiting resistors to all your LEDs.

Driving a mosfet, as has been pointed out before, doesn't need much current usually. So you should be able to drive the LED+resistor, and the mosfet, for each of the 30 switches with no additional problem, once the LED current is limited.

There is no need to switch to the Propeller system. It will have similar output current restrictions, and it uses a different IDE interface and IIRC it uses a variant of the BASIC programming language. While any program can be written in just about any language.... I think you will have more help available if you stick to the Arduino system and the C++ language. If it turns out that you have a defective Mega we can arrange for you to get a new one. If it turns out that you need more current than the raw Arduino can supply you can always put in current-amplification transistors between the Arduino outputs and the mosfets (or H bridges or relays, whatever).

But FIRST THINGS FIRST, try uploading to the Mega with _all external circuitry disconnected_ to see if the current draw is really the problem.
If it works fine this way, then you can probably cure the present problem simply by adding the current-limiting resistors to each LED.

Thanks TK

The Arduino (communication side) is definitely defective and that was from day one right out of the box. The first time I tried it was on my Ubuntu laptop and I never got it to work.
Got it to work once with a new install on windows 7 but now every time I unplug it and plug it back in (without powering the LED's or L298N "ground removed") windows no longer recognizes it.
If I uninstall the Arduino software and reinstall then the first time I connect it it windows recognizes it but always get an upload error.

I've done everything possible. This is crazy.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 04:29:30 PM
Interesting no one here has picked up why my device has such a low current output!!!
Often in morning when I wake up I get a clear answer on something I've been contemplating on. I showed you all in my last video that my coils are 6 slot apart but it hasn't hit anyone.
It was clear to me this morning that in my configuration all my coils are Bucking... and no wonder I hardly get any output.
Pierre picked up on it and sent me a PM late last night which I only got this morning and he concluded the same thing.

Do you not see it?... 2 coils (in the same slot)  are powered together but each with the current in the opposite direction.
I need to take all the stator coils out and reposition them to 5 slots apart.
I'll be busy for some days.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 04:40:43 PM
Hi Luc,

I am finding your coils aligment do not match Pierre's winding style.
Your setup have 2 coils in single slot while Pierre made just 1. Please see video screenshot attached.

The second very important thing to remember - the magnetic field strentgh weakens to the distance from coils squared. Which means in your setup you need to put out really strong magnetic field on stator to reach coil in the middle. Which also means the bare minimum power required will be high to induce current on the output. This is where bank of supercaps may play crucial role.

The third thing, when you attach 12V battery I suspect internal Arduino 5V stabilizer is messing up or is partially burned out. You may diagnose its issues or make external circuit to cope with power consumption on LEDs/etc. Personally I would introduce mosfet drivers to output transistors when driving coils.

Cheers!

Look at the pictures below, around 4 o-clock. You can clearly see the last winding goes into the slot over the previous winding.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: e2matrix on April 14, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
Thanks TK

The Arduino (communication side) is definitely defective and that was from day one right out of the box. The first time I tried it was on my Ubuntu laptop and I never got it to work.
Got it to work once with a new install on windows 7 but now every time I unplug it and plug it back in (without powering the LED's or L298N "ground removed") windows no longer recognizes it.
If I uninstall the Arduino software and reinstall then the first time I connect it it windows recognizes it but always get an upload error.

I've done everything possible. This is crazy.

Regards
Luc


Luc,  Does your Arduino have the CH340G serial chip?   If it does that may be the problem.   I recall something about that serial chip being blocked by a Windows update and it seems that this cheaper Chinese serial chip has caused a lot of headaches with drivers and connection to computers.   Some Arduino's use that chip but better ones use a different serial chip (Atmega 16u2 ? ).   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: e2matrix on April 14, 2018, 07:36:41 PM
If you do have that CH340G serial chip I just found a possible fix for it.  I'll try to attach it here.  I've run it through Virustotal.com also and it is all clear but you can check it too at www.virustotal.com
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 14, 2018, 07:57:16 PM
I also have a problem with loading a file, but only when a magnetic field is generated. After turning off the power and waiting for 10 seconds, arduino is programmed again. This is not a driver problem or power supply.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 08:03:57 PM
Interesting no one here has picked up why my device has such a low current output!!!
Often in morning when I wake up I get a clear answer on something I've been contemplating on. I showed you all in my last video that my coils are 6 slot apart but it hasn't hit anyone.
It was clear to me this morning that in my configuration all my coils are Bucking... and no wonder I hardly get any output.
Pierre picked up on it and sent me a PM late last night which I only got this morning and he concluded the same thing.

Do you not see it?... 2 coils (in the same slot)  are powered together but each with the current in the opposite direction.
I need to take all the stator coils out and reposition them to 5 slots apart.
I'll be busy for some days.

Regards
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

I am finding that a single coil set outputs a reasonable voltage on the rotor however, when you add additional coil sets, output reduces and input current rises.

I have 4 poles between the coil 5 slot pitch, so  there is a 1 pole gap between poles.

So far, I have not  found an answer to this. 

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 08:08:58 PM

Luc,  Does your Arduino have the CH340G serial chip?   If it does that may be the problem.   I recall something about that serial chip being blocked by a Windows update and it seems that this cheaper Chinese serial chip has caused a lot of headaches with drivers and connection to computers.   Some Arduino's use that chip but better ones use a different serial chip (Atmega 16u2 ? ).

Hi e2matrix. Listener191 sent me the same information (see his below message)  Turns out the Arduino I have is the 16U2
However, just got it working again but using my Ubuntu laptop. Don't know why it's working now since this was the first laptop I used and only had errors ???
I'm uploading a video now of the LED firring sequence.

Regards
Luc

 PM from L192
 If you have the original board then I would look at the components around the reset button and make sure you don't have a missing cap. Some of these boards have deliberately left a coupling cap to the reset line out so you have to manual reset the board each time.
 
 http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?146,705810 (http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?146,705810)
 
 Check which board you have, if its the CH340 chip then you need to load a driver for it.
 
 If you see the board listed under ports in device manager, does it have an exclamation mark against it? if so click on it to open the window and select  search for driver.
 
 Regards
 L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 08:12:35 PM


A visual of the Arduino firring sequence program to the L298N's

Video demo: https://youtu.be/fO2vIJj5xtI (https://youtu.be/fO2vIJj5xtI)

The below Images are made by PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 08:40:55 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

I am finding that a single coil set outputs a reasonable voltage on the rotor however, when you add additional coil sets, output reduces and input current rises.

I have 4 poles between the coil 5 slot pitch, so  there is a 1 pole gap between poles.

So far, I have not  found an answer to this. 

Regards
L192

Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on April 14, 2018, 09:02:43 PM
If you do have that CH340G serial chip I just found a possible fix for it.  I'll try to attach it here.  I've run it through Virustotal.com also and it is all clear but you can check it too at www.virustotal.com

Again, quoted from my post #386-

All,

To maybe help sort out the the confusion, the 2560 board I shipped to Luc uses An Atmel Mega16U2 as compared to the original Arduino AtMega8u2 for USB communications.


Regards,
Pm
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 09:12:12 PM
Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc




Hi Gotoluc,

I cannot see anything in either your build, or mine causing this problem, so I think my next move is to set up two opposing  poles N&S, positioned across the rotor, initially just one coil each, then just statically pulse them.

I want to see what happens with rotor induction.

Then add more coils in each pole group and check the result.


Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2018, 09:39:10 PM



Hi Gotoluc,

I cannot see anything in either your build, or mine causing this problem, so I think my next move is to set up two opposing  poles N&S, positioned across the rotor, initially just one coil each, then just statically pulse them.

I want to see what happens with rotor induction.

Then add more coils in each pole group and check the result.


Regards

L192

Yes, I agree! A better plan then rewinding my stator coils to a 5 slot space just to find the same issue ???
Baby steps for now.

Thanks for coming forward with this.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on April 14, 2018, 11:03:51 PM
Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc

luc ,

j'ai visionné ta vidéo je remarque que seul 6 led sont actif ,si je comprend bien le schéma de pmgR ,il faudrait 12 contacte actif
par pas ,on dirais que dans ton cas présent 3x10 bobine sont actif au lieu de 6x5 bobine ?   

Mosha

 
I saw your video I noticed that only 6 led are active, if I understand the diagram of pmgR, it would take 12 active contact by step, we would say that in this case 3x10 coil are active instead of 6x5 coil?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 14, 2018, 11:17:59 PM
I just observed in Lucs last video with the consecutive LEDs in ultra slow sequence that the LED comes on and goes off in "two brightness steps" !
Maybe the camera fools me?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 14, 2018, 11:24:33 PM
See the rough sketch attached.

For 5 coils on a 5 slot pitch, 63 slots would allow all applied current to be realized as flux through the rotor.

You need a 5 + 1 slot gap between the coil groups to ensure the poles don't overlap.

The way we are proceeding at the moment much of the flux is cancelled out.



L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 15, 2018, 12:22:58 AM
Well, that's interesting!
PmgR is certain there is no bucking coils event in my configuration even though I have 6 slot space compared to 5 slots.
Please have a look at the video I just posted (above post) for a visual confirmation of the coil firring and have a look at the wiring chart PmgR made to see if you can find something that could cause the ridiculously low output. Maybe the Half bridges are conducting through another path?

Thanks and everyones input is welcome. Please have a look TK to see if we are missing something. Keep in mind that 5 coils are powered in series plus one 50% overlap.

Regards
Luc

Luc, I made this drawing to help with the reflection. This is your configuration on the 30-groove rotor, with each coil on 6 grooves. All pairs of coils in each of the grooves are in opposition.

I'm sure yes, but I ask the question anyway, did you mate the ends of the coil wires in series, joining the end of the previous coil with the beginning of the next coil (considering the direction of the 'winding)?

FR
Luc, j'ai fait ce dessin pour aider à la réflexion. C'est votre configuration sur le rotor à 30 rainures, avec chaque bobine sur 6 rainures. Toutes les paires de bobines dans chacune des 30 rainures sont en opposition.

Je suis certain que oui, mais je pose la question quand même, avez-vous bien accouplé les extrémités des fils des bobines en série, en joignant la fin de la bobine précédente avec le début de la bobine suivante (en considérant le sens de l'enroulement) ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 15, 2018, 12:25:22 AM
Hi Luc,

I think Mosha points out the problem:
Quote
I saw your video I noticed that only 6 led are active, if I understand the diagram of pmgR, it would take 12 active contact by step, we would say that in this case 3x10 coil are active instead of 6x5 coil?

The number of magnetic half poles have to be an even number as magnetic fields always curls back forming loops. This is a problem in your stator! It is a 1.5 poled stator as it has 1.5 pole sets. Thus a return path for the last pole is missing or actually 1.5 poles are missing if making a three poled stator.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 15, 2018, 01:10:13 AM
Flux path with two positive and one negative input. If all three inputs have the same polarity there's no magnetic field generated.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 15, 2018, 01:14:02 AM
Hi Luc,

I think Mosha points out the problem:
The number of magnetic half poles have to be an even number as magnetic fields always curls back forming loops. This is a problem in your stator! It is a 1.5 poled stator as it has 1.5 pole sets. Thus a return path for the last pole is missing or actually 1.5 poles are missing if making a three poled stator.

Regards
Ole
Ole, that is not correct. Take a look at the H-bridge image from before (with red and black wires) and the one below. One LED in Luc's setup controls 1 H-bridge. Each H-bridge makes a connection to +Vss with red output and to GND with black output. So even though you only see 3 LEDs on, 6 connections are made (three to Vss and three to GND).


See the image below when H-bridges 1, 11 and 21 are on: all 6 poles are activated in this case in opposite directions from eachother.


The only thing I can think of is that maybe the frequency is too high for L/R coil times and iron stator/rotor, or coils where not connected properly on the stator (start and end of winding reversed, or coil put in while rotated 180deg. But I asked Luc this same question and he said he carefully paid attention to all this when assembling the rotor.


The other thing is that he was able to spin the small magnet without problem, so the only thing I can think of is that the current Arduino frequency is too high.


Luc, I suggest you upload the sketch with the potentiometer so you can change the frequency to a lower/higher one easily and see what happens with the output coil voltage (make sure to leave it open, no load). Changing the frequency you should see the voltage increase when frequency goes higher (until you hit the R/L cut-off frequency). Voltage should go down when the frequency goes down. I suggest playing with it in the lower frequency range like 1-20Hz or so.


Also, put the magnet back in and start at a low frequency and let it spin, then turn up the frequency to see when it cuts out so you know how high you can go in frequency before it stops spinning (of course the thing has some mass, so it will not be an exact cut-off but it will give you a ball-park value).
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 15, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
Hi PmgR,

Quote
See the image below when H-bridges 1, 11 and 21 are on: all 6 poles are activated in this case in opposite directions from eachother.


The only thing I can think of is that maybe the frequency is too high for L/R coil times and iron stator/rotor, or coils where not connected properly on the stator (start and end of winding reversed, or coil put in while rotated 180deg. But I asked Luc this same question and he said he carefully paid attention to all this when assembling the rotor.


The other thing is that he was able to spin the small magnet without problem, so the only thing I can think of is that the current Arduino frequency is too high.
That looks OK then.

I would suggest increasing the frequency as transformers and inductors have to have quite much inductance at low frequencies. The parasitic resistance of the wire becomes dominating which is just waste of power as heat. If using ferrite as magnetic conductor the frequency could be say 50kHz or more depending on ferrite type. This gives a very much higher power density. Just look at how light weight a several hundred Watts power supply of high switching frequency is compared to a 50Hz power supply of the same power. The high frequency requires less inductance of the coils. The motor stator can't take that high frequency but should be OK for perhaps 100Hz.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gmolina on April 15, 2018, 03:01:04 AM
Hi Luc, i think that little details can change everything, i see that Pierre stator winding is similar to the attached image, and your winding, look different.

Regards,

GM
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 03:08:20 AM
Hi Luc, i think that little details can change everything, i see that Pierre stator winding is similar to the attached image, and your winding, look different.

Regards,

GM

I agree that looks more like Pierre's windings but your drawing does not explain how it is wound.
Can you explain more of what you think is going on?

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 03:17:46 AM
I made 2 videos, the first one in English and the next in French.
These videos are to explain the coils firring sequence and what I believe to be the reason why there's next to no flux going through the center core coil.

English video: https://youtu.be/wnHXpeu-Szo (https://youtu.be/wnHXpeu-Szo)

Fr. J'ai fait 2 vidéos, la première en anglais et la suivante en français.
Cette vidéo a pour but d'expliquer la séquence d'allumage des bobines et ce que je crois être la raison pour laquelle il n'y a pas de flux passant par la bobine du noyau central.

Video en français: https://youtu.be/b4io8wZCb-s (https://youtu.be/b4io8wZCb-s)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 15, 2018, 04:50:02 AM
Look very carefully at the code differences between PMGR and Pierre's code posted from


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued -moderated / msg518835 / # msg518835 (http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg518835/#msg518835)


 There is an OFFSET !!!!!


THERE IS A FULL ON / OFF POSITION AT THE BEGINNING / END of Pierre's Code! This would allow a very strong SINGLE coil magnetic field to be placed with no overlap!


The offset allows for the inductive kickback to be pulled around for a full cycle before released!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: alex77 on April 15, 2018, 07:39:12 AM
Hello, I am following this thread from the beginning. I was very impressed by Pierre generator. Very professional thread, all which are involved here have a lot of experience in these issues.
All my respect to Luc, his prototype is very impressive and expensive.
I am not an expert, not even a professional, I am more like an amator.
I want share with my point of view, because I know that if you focus too much to one idea, you miss other solutions.
From my point of amator view, there no 30/36 coils energized all time, as you Luc mentioned in the last video. I believe that only the coils which are energized are exactly the coils where the LEDs are on. When led is off, the coils not energized anymore, allowing bemf to go to caps. If all coils are energized, how bemf can take place?
I believe like this: all the time is on three coils from stator and Pierre made the "rotor" with a certain number of turns like in a normal transformer. So all the time only 3 coils are inducing the current to the rotor.
Again, I am just an amator, please ignore if this is wrong.

Cheers!
Alex
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 15, 2018, 08:46:36 AM
Hi Luc
Three suggestions:
Put in some proper backemf/recoil collecting steering diodes!!!!!
Pierre said plain as day this is the secret.
Do not rely on the internal diodes within the H switches to do anything at all....they certainly will not be filling up any capacitors!!!

Squeeze in a big vise the stator assembly so that it actually squeezes the stator onto the rotor and there is very good contact between the rotor and stator and near no airgap.
You can see how Pierre has hard time installing his rotor and it is very tight squeeze plus looks like good contact between rotor and stator surfaces. and no airgap.

Use the same wire and same length of wire as Pierre uses in his rotor - parallel bifilar 20 GA and I think it was 900 feet in each bifilar half??? that rubeer coated wire I saw you use will be very lousy stuff to use my opinion

Anyways keep going don't stop!! Stay positive don't give up until it loops. (then work on it even more)

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on April 15, 2018, 09:08:06 AM
luc ,

j'ai visionné ta vidéo je remarque que seul 6 led sont actif ,si je comprend bien le schéma de pmgR ,il faudrait 12 contacte actif
par pas ,on dirais que dans ton cas présent 3x10 bobine sont actif au lieu de 6x5 bobine ?   

Mosha

 I saw your video I noticed that only 6 led are active, if I understand the diagram of pmgR, it would take 12 active contact by step, we would say that in this case 3x10 coil are active instead of 6x5 coil?

hi,all

désolé  ,j'ai mal interpreté l'action que représente  une LED actif ,merci à L192  d'avoir clarifier les chose .et pardon pour cette
confusion .

cordialement ,Mosha

sorry, I misinterpreted the action of an active LED, thanks to L192 for clarifying the things .and sorry for this confusion .

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 15, 2018, 09:57:16 AM
?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 15, 2018, 11:03:17 AM
Hello Luc,

did I miss something ; can you explain to me how is ordered the closing of the contact (green arrow) which allows the passage of the negative current?
Thank you


FR
Bonjour Luc,

j'ai loupé quelque chose ; pouvez-vous m'expliquer comment est commandée la fermeture du contact (flèche verte) qui permet le passage du courant négatif ?
Merci
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener191 on April 15, 2018, 11:14:02 AM
I made 2 videos, the first one in English and the next in French.
These videos are to explain the coils firring sequence and what I believe to be the reason why there's next to no flux going through the center core coil.

English video: https://youtu.be/wnHXpeu-Szo (https://youtu.be/wnHXpeu-Szo)

Fr. J'ai fait 2 vidéos, la première en anglais et la suivante en français.
Cette vidéo a pour but d'expliquer la séquence d'allumage des bobines et ce que je crois être la raison pour laquelle il n'y a pas de flux passant par la bobine du noyau central.

Video en français: https://youtu.be/b4io8wZCb-s (https://youtu.be/b4io8wZCb-s)

Hi Gotoluc,

Actually it was 5 coils not a single coil and when I added the next coil group (5 coils) opposite polarity  the output dropped due to the partial cancellation of the MMF.

I was going to conduct a single coil test but now I know what is happening I don't need to do that.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 15, 2018, 11:41:30 AM
Pic 1  Recapitulation 

Pic 2  Two types of winding Overlapped Non overlapped
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: shylo on April 15, 2018, 11:51:15 AM
Luc,

The way you showed your sequence in the latest video to me is totally wrong.
I think it should be ,5 coils putting out a north, at the same time 180 degrees away 5 coils putting out a south, and then progress the fields one slot at a time.
You have 3 fields n,s,n....n,s,n??  I'm not sure if this is what you have ,but if it is this would explain the low output.
confused artv
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 15, 2018, 12:54:00 PM
Hi Gotoluc,

Actually it was 5 coils not a single coil and when I added the next coil group (5 coils) opposite polarity  the output dropped due to the partial cancellation of the MMF.

I was going to conduct a single coil test but now I know what is happening I don't need to do that.

Regards

L192

Hi L192
When you say "one slot as a gap" between poles, do you mean that the slot should be completely blank/empty? Or this slot contains the last coil of the previous pole and the first coil of the next pole? Is that possible for a winding graphic representation of your idea?

Luc, is there any chance for a mistake when you were connecting your coils between each other? Out of the "no-current at all" result, looks like that you accidentally have connected them as cw+ccw+cw+ccw...etc. Can you verify this easily? Or else you can fire them one by one and check the polarity with a compass.   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 15, 2018, 12:58:38 PM
Hi Jeg,

Its in post 496.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 15, 2018, 03:20:48 PM
Attached represents about the best we can do for a 30 or 36 slot stator whilst generating 6 poles.

So in the case of the 30 slot stator it would be 4 coils at a 3 slot pitch and for the 36 pole stator it would be 4 coils at a 4 slot pitch.

I have added Pierre's  36 slot stator 6 coil scheme. I think semiconductor switches will have a hard time with the clashing poles.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 03:40:23 PM
Good morning everyone,
Just to let you all know that 2 new members have joined, so their posts were not visible and waiting for my Moderator approval and Listener191 also had an email issue which also needed moderator approval.
So please see all posts above to read these now visible posts
I will also be translating Pierre's new PM he sent me. So stay tuned for those updates.
Regards
Luc

Fr.
Bonjour à tous,
Juste pour vous faire savoir que 2 nouveaux membres ont rejoint, donc leurs messages n'étaient pas visibles et attendaient l'approbation de modérateur et Listener191 avait aussi un problème de courrier électronique qui nécessitait également l'approbation de modérateur.
Alors s'il vous plaît voir tous les messages ci-dessus pour lire ces messages maintenant visibles
Je traduirai aussi les nouveaux PM de Pierre qu'il m'a envoyé. Alors restez à l'écoute pour ces mises à jour.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 04:44:12 PM
The below are two new messages I received from Pierre after he viewed my last French video.
Fr.  Ci-dessous son deux nouveaux messages que jai reçus de Pierre après avoir vu ma dernière vidéo française.

Yes, I know that 6 pole without current variation does not give much but my device has a variation of current. Congratulations you just discovered one of my secret. There still remains more to discover, then you will see the performance I achieved. And yes, there is really 6 field that rotate, except, there really is a variation which you need to know how to do so you can vary the coils. It may be possible that your configuration can achieve it but I'm not sure of your configuration, you will need to experiment. One thing is sure, if you had 5 pole it will not work. You see, you start to find solutions to the problems.

Sorry, I had left you a quick message since I was not home. Yes you can make a fluctuation between the field while having 6 magnetic field and can be all done in series. I was able to do it it. There are several ways to do it and you could have done it with only 2 pole in series, 1 north and 1 south with all coils on.
I would of needed to considerably increased the speed but with relays it is not possible. You can do it as you want but it is one of the conditions to get overunity.
You still have one solution to find but the basis is to have a good rotation of the field, a north at one end of the rotor and a south to the other side and a variation of current if you want a maximum of amperage and it's better kept all the coils in series in this configuration but you really are on the right track. Now I understand why you did not have much output with the program that I saw. Everything is explainable. Have a good day

Fr.  Oui, je sait que 6 pole sans variation de courant ne donne pas grand chose, mais moi j'ai une variation de courant. Félicitations tu vient de découvrir un de mes secret. Il en reste encore un peut  a devouvrir et tu va avoir le performance que j'ai fait. Mais oui, il y a vraiment 6 champ qui tourne sauf qu'il y a bien une variation, suffit de savoir comment faire pour varier les bobines. Il se peut que ta configuration faisse le travail mais je ne suis pas sure de ta configuration, tu peut experimenter. Une chose est sûre, si tu avait 5 pole cela ne fonctionnera pas tu voit, tu commence à trouver des solution au problème.

Fr.  Bon désolé, je t'ai laisser un message rapidement mais je n'était pas chez moi. Oui tu peut faire une fluctuation entre les champ en ayant 6 champ magnétique et tu peut faire toute en série. Je l'ai fait. Il y a plusieurs façon de faire et tu aurait pu faire avec seulement 2 pole en série 1 nord et 1 sud et toute les bobine allumée.
J'aurais du considérablement augmenté la vitesse, mais avec des relais ce n'était pas possible. Tu peut le faire comme tu le veut mais c'est l'une des condition pour faire un overunity.
Il te reste qu'une solution a trouver, mais la base est de bien faire tourner le champ, un nord a une extrémité du rotor et un sud a l'autre coté et une variation de courant si tu veut un maximum d'ampérage et vaut mieux resté en série pour toute les bobine dans cette configuration mais tu est vraiment sur la bonne voie. Maintenant je comprend pourquoi tu n'avait pas grand chose a la sortie avec le program que j'ai vue. Tout s'explique.  bonne journée
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
Hello Luc,

did I miss something ; can you explain to me how is ordered the closing of the contact (green arrow) which allows the passage of the negative current?
Thank you

FR
Bonjour Luc,

j'ai loupé quelque chose ; pouvez-vous m'expliquer comment est commandée la fermeture du contact (flèche verte) qui permet le passage du courant négatif ?
Merci

Hello MichelM, please see the below drawing to understand how the coils are powered and connected.

Fr. Bonjour MichelM, s'il vous plaît voir le dessin ci-dessous pour comprendre comment les bobines sont alimentées et connectées.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 05:23:10 PM
I received the below private message from MileHigh which I'm posting since it's content is participative.
@MileHigh, I think you can post in this topic but your post would only be visible once I approve them and could end up not being seen. So you can PM me and I'll post what is informative or constructive.

From MH
Listener191 put up a hand sketch in post #458 and better drawing in post #465 that shows the flux cancellation problems with overlapping north-south contiguous sets of 5+5 coils and then he proposes a "solution" by separating the north and south sets of coils far apart so that they don't "interfere" with each other.
 
 But the problem is that with even the separation you still get massive amounts of flux cancellation.
 
 Listener in his new diagram thinks a 3-slot pitch coil configuration looks like this:
 
 NNN
 _NNN
 __NNN
 
 And he thinks that that all looks "additive" and solves the flux cancellation problem.
 
 But the reality is that this is false.
 
 Let's look at a single 3-slot pitch coil and a single 5-slot pitch coil:
 
 Do they look like this?
 
 _NNN_
 _NNNNN_
 
 The answer is NO, they look like this:
 
 ...SSSSSNNNSSSSS...
 ...SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS...
 
 On either side of each "north" coil you have SOUTH.   And that will cancel out some of the flux on both sides.
 
 So here is what a 5-slot pitch "solution" looks like just for one polarity:
 
 SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 _SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 __SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 ___SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 ____SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 
 Then on top of that, what about all of the net flux generated in the stator that is not lined up with the stationary rotor?
 
 It doesn't really have a nice return path to complete the flux loop, does it?  On either side of the coils in the stator there is air, and air sucks for conducting the magnetic flux.  The vast majority of the flux is going to complete the loop inside the metal of the stator itself.  That means some of the flux is not going to be "nice" and it is going to "punch though" the stator in the opposite direction that you think it should be going in because it has to loop back around the coil somehow.  And that means even more flux cancellation will be taking place because there is no proper magnetic circuit to channel the flux in a proper loop.
 
 It's a double-whammy mess.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 15, 2018, 05:28:59 PM
I received the below private message from MileHigh which I'm posting since it's content is participative.
@MileHigh, I think you can post in this topic but your post would only be visible once I approve it and could end up not being seen. So you can PM me and I'll post what is informative or constructive.

From MH
Listener191 put up a hand sketch in post #458 and better drawing in post #465 that shows the flux cancellation problems with overlapping north-south contiguous sets of 5+5 coils and then he proposes a "solution" by separating the north and south sets of coils far apart so that they don't "interfere" with each other.
 
 But the problem is that with even the separation you still get massive amounts of flux cancellation.
 
 Listener in his new diagram thinks a 3-slot pitch coil configuration looks like this:
 
 NNN
 _NNN
 __NNN
 
 And he thinks that that all looks "additive" and solves the flux cancellation problem.
 
 But the reality is that this is false.
 
 Let's look at a single 3-slot pitch coil and a single 5-slot pitch coil:
 
 Do they look like this?
 
 _NNN_
 _NNNNN_
 
 The answer is NO, they look like this:
 
 ...SSSSSNNNSSSSS...
 ...SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS...
 
 On either side of each "north" coil you have SOUTH.   And that will cancel out some of the flux on both sides.
 
 So here is what a 5-slot pitch "solution" looks like just for one polarity:
 
 SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 _SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 __SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 ___SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 ____SSSSSNNNNNSSSSS
 
 Then on top of that, what about all of the net flux generated in the stator that is not lined up with the stationary rotor?
 
 It doesn't really have a nice return path to complete the flux loop, does it?  On either side of the coils in the stator there is air, and air sucks for conducting the magnetic flux.  The vast majority of the flux is going to complete the loop inside the metal of the stator itself.  That means some of the flux is not going to be "nice" and it is going to "punch though" the stator in the opposite direction that you think it should be going in because it has to loop back around the coil somehow.  And that means even more flux cancellation will be taking place because there is no proper magnetic circuit to channel the flux in a proper loop.
 
 It's a double-whammy mess.

Yes he is correct about the stator poles coupling to the back stator either side of the pole group however, this situation changes when the rotor is in registration with a pole as the rotor then offers a lower reluctance path across to the opposite polarity pole.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on April 15, 2018, 05:34:51 PM
The below are two new messages I received from Pierre after he viewed my last French video.
Fr.  Ci-dessous son deux nouveaux messages que jai reçus de Pierre après avoir vu ma dernière vidéo française.

Yes, I know that 6 pole without current variation does not give much but my device has a variation of current. Congratulations you just discovered one of my secret. There still remains more to discover, then you will see the performance I achieved. And yes, there is really 6 field that rotate, except, there really is a variation which you need to know how to do so you can vary the coils. It may be possible that your configuration can achieve it but I'm not sure of your configuration, you will need to experiment. One thing is sure, if you had 5 pole it will not work. You see, you start to find solutions to the problems.

Sorry, I had left you a quick message since I was not home. Yes you can make a fluctuation between the field while having 6 magnetic field and can be all done in series. I was able to do it it. There are several ways to do it and you could have done it with only 2 pole in series, 1 north and 1 south with all coils on.
I would of needed to considerably increased the speed but with relays it is not possible. You can do it as you want but it is one of the conditions to get overunity.
You still have one solution to find but the basis is to have a good rotation of the field, a north at one end of the rotor and a south to the other side and a variation of current if you want a maximum of amperage and it's better kept all the coils in series in this configuration but you really are on the right track. Now I understand why you did not have much output with the program that I saw. Everything is explainable. Have a good day

Fr.  Oui, je sait que 6 pole sans variation de courant ne donne pas grand chose, mais moi j'ai une variation de courant. Félicitations tu vient de découvrir un de mes secret. Il en reste encore un peut  a devouvrir et tu va avoir le performance que j'ai fait. Mais oui, il y a vraiment 6 champ qui tourne sauf qu'il y a bien une variation, suffit de savoir comment faire pour varier les bobines. Il se peut que ta configuration faisse le travail mais je ne suis pas sure de ta configuration, tu peut experimenter. Une chose est sûre, si tu avait 5 pole cela ne fonctionnera pas tu voit, tu commence à trouver des solution au problème.

Fr.  Bon désolé, je t'ai laisser un message rapidement mais je n'était pas chez moi. Oui tu peut faire une fluctuation entre les champ en ayant 6 champ magnétique et tu peut faire toute en série. Je l'ai fait. Il y a plusieurs façon de faire et tu aurait pu faire avec seulement 2 pole en série 1 nord et 1 sud et toute les bobine allumée.
J'aurais du considérablement augmenté la vitesse, mais avec des relais ce n'était pas possible. Tu peut le faire comme tu le veut mais c'est l'une des condition pour faire un overunity.
Il te reste qu'une solution a trouver, mais la base est de bien faire tourner le champ, un nord a une extrémité du rotor et un sud a l'autre coté et une variation de courant si tu veut un maximum d'ampérage et vaut mieux resté en série pour toute les bobine dans cette configuration mais tu est vraiment sur la bonne voie. Maintenant je comprend pourquoi tu n'avait pas grand chose a la sortie avec le program que j'ai vue. Tout s'explique.  bonne journée

Hi,
FR/
variation du flux magnétique ?
je pense qu'il y'a déjà une variation du flux du au fait de cour circuiter 1/5 bobine soit 20%. c'est peut être pas suffisant et qu'il
faudrait simplement en courcircuiter  2 à 3 bobine à la fois ca va permettre une augmentation du courant dans les autres bobines
qu'en penser vous ?

cordialement ,Mosha

ENvariation of the magnetic flux? I think there is already a variation in the flow of the fact of running circuit 1/5 coil or 20%. it may not be enough and we should simply short  2 to 3 coil at a time it will allow an increase in the current in the other coils
 what do you think?

 





Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 15, 2018, 05:37:23 PM
Hello, I am following this thread from the beginning. I was very impressed by Pierre generator. Very professional thread, all which are involved here have a lot of experience in these issues.
All my respect to Luc, his prototype is very impressive and expensive.
I am not an expert, not even a professional, I am more like an amator.
I want share with my point of view, because I know that if you focus too much to one idea, you miss other solutions.
From my point of amator view, there no 30/36 coils energized all time, as you Luc mentioned in the last video. I believe that only the coils which are energized are exactly the coils where the LEDs are on. When led is off, the coils not energized anymore, allowing bemf to go to caps. If all coils are energized, how bemf can take place?
I believe like this: all the time is on three coils from stator and Pierre made the "rotor" with a certain number of turns like in a normal transformer. So all the time only 3 coils are inducing the current to the rotor.
Again, I am just an amator, please ignore if this is wrong.

Cheers!
Alex

Hi Alex,

There is a rotary pattern of poles with a distributed  amplitude of MMF however, you are correct, I have measured no coil recovery current from any of the half bridges in operation, as no coil actually turns off. We are missing something that Pierre has not shared.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 15, 2018, 05:43:21 PM
The below are two new messages I received from Pierre after he viewed my last French video.
Fr.  Ci-dessous son deux nouveaux messages que jai reçus de Pierre après avoir vu ma dernière vidéo française.

Yes, I know that 6 pole without current variation does not give much but my device has a variation of current. Congratulations you just discovered one of my secret. There still remains more to discover, then you will see the performance I achieved. And yes, there is really 6 field that rotate, except, there really is a variation which you need to know how to do so you can vary the coils. It may be possible that your configuration can achieve it but I'm not sure of your configuration, you will need to experiment. One thing is sure, if you had 5 pole it will not work. You see, you start to find solutions to the problems.

Sorry, I had left you a quick message since I was not home. Yes you can make a fluctuation between the field while having 6 magnetic field and can be all done in series. I was able to do it it. There are several ways to do it and you could have done it with only 2 pole in series, 1 north and 1 south with all coils on.
I would of needed to considerably increased the speed but with relays it is not possible. You can do it as you want but it is one of the conditions to get overunity.
You still have one solution to find but the basis is to have a good rotation of the field, a north at one end of the rotor and a south to the other side and a variation of current if you want a maximum of amperage and it's better kept all the coils in series in this configuration but you really are on the right track. Now I understand why you did not have much output with the program that I saw. Everything is explainable. Have a good day

Fr.  Oui, je sait que 6 pole sans variation de courant ne donne pas grand chose, mais moi j'ai une variation de courant. Félicitations tu vient de découvrir un de mes secret. Il en reste encore un peut  a devouvrir et tu va avoir le performance que j'ai fait. Mais oui, il y a vraiment 6 champ qui tourne sauf qu'il y a bien une variation, suffit de savoir comment faire pour varier les bobines. Il se peut que ta configuration faisse le travail mais je ne suis pas sure de ta configuration, tu peut experimenter. Une chose est sûre, si tu avait 5 pole cela ne fonctionnera pas tu voit, tu commence à trouver des solution au problème.

Fr.  Bon désolé, je t'ai laisser un message rapidement mais je n'était pas chez moi. Oui tu peut faire une fluctuation entre les champ en ayant 6 champ magnétique et tu peut faire toute en série. Je l'ai fait. Il y a plusieurs façon de faire et tu aurait pu faire avec seulement 2 pole en série 1 nord et 1 sud et toute les bobine allumée.
J'aurais du considérablement augmenté la vitesse, mais avec des relais ce n'était pas possible. Tu peut le faire comme tu le veut mais c'est l'une des condition pour faire un overunity.
Il te reste qu'une solution a trouver, mais la base est de bien faire tourner le champ, un nord a une extrémité du rotor et un sud a l'autre coté et une variation de courant si tu veut un maximum d'ampérage et vaut mieux resté en série pour toute les bobine dans cette configuration mais tu est vraiment sur la bonne voie. Maintenant je comprend pourquoi tu n'avait pas grand chose a la sortie avec le program que j'ai vue. Tout s'explique.  bonne journée


The easiest way to vary the current through all of the coils is with PWM.

We are generating a travelling wave via the rotating poles lets say at 10Hz, then via PWM we superimpose 60Hz on top of the 10Hz wave?



L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 15, 2018, 05:54:20 PM
Just a repetition from my post in energeticforum:
I come to think of this when I reed Pierres last letter.
Part of the Figuera patent.

A)
(pat.1908) " circulates a proper current, which is taken from one foreign
origin into one or more electromagnets, magnetize one or more
electromagnets"

" and while the current is higher or lower the magnetization of
the electromagnets ((one or more)) is decreasing or increasing and varying
"

decreasing or increasing and varying

B)
(pat.1914) " but in no case is there any communication between the induced coil
and the inductor coil "

C)
(pat.1914) " and we will collect from these induced ((y)) the resulting
phenomena experienced from those inductors. ((N, S)) "

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 06:12:10 PM
Hi,
FR/
variation du flux magnétique ?
je pense qu'il y'a déjà une variation du flux du au fait de cour circuiter 1/5 bobine soit 20%. c'est peut être pas suffisant et qu'il
faudrait simplement en courcircuiter  2 à 3 bobine à la fois ca va permettre une augmentation du courant dans les autres bobines
qu'en penser vous ?

cordialement ,Mosha

ENvariation of the magnetic flux? I think there is already a variation in the flow of the fact of running circuit 1/5 coil or 20%. it may not be enough and we should simply short  2 to 3 coil at a time it will allow an increase in the current in the other coils
 what do you think?

Oui, Mosha, c'est un très bon point et un moyen possible qui doit être pris en considération.
De plus, le programme original de Pierre qu'il m'a envoyé contenait un petit problème qui a été corrigé par PmgR et peut-être d'autres. Cependant, nous devrions considérer cela comme un indice possible et non comme une erreur de la part de Pierre.
Merci d'avoir porté cela à notre attention.
Nous avons beaucoup de bons esprits ici et en travaillant ensemble, nous serons en mesure de résoudre chaque problème au fur et à mesure.
Cordialement
Luc

Eng. Yes, Mosha, that is very good point and a possible way which needs consideration.
Also, Pierre's original program he sent me contained a glitch of some kind which was corrected by PmgR and maybe others. However, we should be looking at this as a possible hint and not an error on Pierre's part.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
We have a lot of good minds here and by working together we will be able to solve each issue as they come.
Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 15, 2018, 06:17:56 PM

The easiest way to vary the current through all of the coils is with PWM.

We are generating a travelling wave via the rotating poles lets say at 10Hz, then via PWM we superimpose 60Hz on top of the 10Hz wave?



L192

The other way around. We have to build a low frequency with the help of a high frequency switching. The sketch needs a variable to be set so to increase the "on" time of the pulse, coil after coil and then back again to 50% for a full cycle. It is easy i guess but first lets solve the overlapping problem. Looks like Pierre's new topology solves this issue and still keeps the uniformity all around the stator.

 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 15, 2018, 06:55:02 PM
Another very important variation we need to consider when using Solid State vs Relay switching is, we know Pierre is pushing his relays to their mechanical limits and he has said many times he would like to even go to higher frequencies but the relays can't handle it.
So the reality is, when pushing a relay to its mechanical limit you get to a point that even though you program tells the relay to stay on for x amount of time, it actually does much less. So when using solid state components which does not suffer from this issue (time reduction) we need to consider this.  So we should have the ability to reduce duty cycle (on time) and overlap time to tune the device's input power and overall efficiency.

Regards
Luc

Fr.  Une autre variation très importante que nous devons prendre en compte lors de l'utilisation de la commutation Solid State vs Relay est que nous savons que Pierre pousse ses relais à leurs limites mécaniques et il aimerait même aller à des fréquences plus élevées mais les relais ne peuvent pas le gérer.
Donc, en réalité, lorsque vous augmentez un relais à sa limite mécanique, vous arrivez à un point où, même si vous programmez le relais pour qu'il reste allumé pendant x temps, il en fait beaucoup moins. Donc, lorsque vous utilisez des composants à l'état solide qui ne souffre pas de ce problème (réductiont de temps), alors nous devons considérer cela et devrions avoir la possibilité de réduire le cycle de service (à temps) et le temps de chevauchement pour régler la puissance d'entrée de l'appareil et l'efficacité globale
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 15, 2018, 07:18:20 PM
The other way around. We have to build a low frequency with the help of a high frequency switching. The sketch needs a variable to be set so to increase the "on" time of the pulse, coil after coil and then back again to 50% for a full cycle. It is easy i guess but first lets solve the overlapping problem. Looks like Pierre's new topology solves this issue and still keeps the uniformity all around the stator.
Indeed, Luc, upload the potentiometer sketch to the Arduino and put the rotary magnet back in, start at a low frequency, get the magnet spinning and then turn up the frequency to see what happens.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 16, 2018, 03:31:27 AM
Hi Everyone
Why no backemf/recoil recovery steering diodes on each relay or H bridge switch???????
This energy is being totally disregarded and shoved into garbage can, like most electrical engineers with the proper schooling will do.

Again I mention Pierre said plain as day in Luc's video that the "coil return" (he calls it) is the secret!!!
Why not take what he points out as truth??

That backemf/recoil energy is very much stronger with mechanical switching since such low resistance to the switching....also note that you place steering diodes on the SWITCH, not really the inductor - the energy "comes" from the switch you could say.

So there is that point I want to make the other point maybe even more important (maybe not)

Lets say you shove that magnet wire up through slot 1 and down through slot 6....now you have created an electromagnets of that distance through the stator poles, N one end, S other for example....
So very simple.
Now what about all the winds in between 1 and 6?
They all become INDDUCED  PICKUP WINDS (sharing common core) and they will for sure make lots and lots of power especially all combined together too....
BUT will only "make" this power if you put DIODES on those winds and guide this energy into a cap bank for example where to put it (what Pierre does!)
No diodes, you will see nothing!
My personal perhaps warped opinion is that THIS is where the huge amount of energy produced in Pierres DZ generator comes from (my theory sorry)
Pulse one coil - induce 4 or 5 in
concsequence but it is not a consequence it is a reinforcement of energy created  and this energy fills up the cap  bank, keeps it looping with no more input, once you also pre0charge the cap bank.
ALSO
There is a "combination" (coherence as Ole will call it) of the induced pickup winds, and the backemf/recoil/flyback energy - this makes the caps fill up even faster....
Anyways in conclusion it looks like to me the diodes are being completely ignored in Pierre's build, and I will guess everyone is thinking the internal diodes in the H-bridges are doing this work, but actually they will not do shit (sorry) they are only there to be a protection mechanism, not a steering mechanism of this energy....
Try to pull out the backemf/recoil with any transistor or mosfet without some fast steering diodes guiding into caps....
Try tp put any emergy into caps with induced pickup winds that share common core with primary pulse??
All will be fruitless without the diodes into caps.


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 16, 2018, 05:19:20 AM
72 diodes connected Only to + and somewhere ?   (72 relays, 36 coils)

And middle connections without labels  35 empty 36 = one single point between two coils and two relays with TWO diodes in parallel ??
How are the diodes connected on the Arduino compared with Pierres connections?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 16, 2018, 05:49:57 AM
Hi Everyone
Why no backemf/recoil recovery steering diodes on each relay or H bridge switch? ??? ???
This energy is being totally disregarded and shoved into garbage can, like most electrical engineers with the proper schooling will do.

Again I mention Pierre said plain as day in Luc's video that the "coil return" (he calls it) is the secret!!!
Why not take what he points out as truth??

That backemf/recoil energy is very much stronger with mechanical switching since such low resistance to the switching....also note that you place steering diodes on the SWITCH, not really the inductor - the energy "comes" from the switch you could say.

So there is that point I want to make the other point maybe even more important (maybe not)

Lets say you shove that magnet wire up through slot 1 and down through slot 6....now you have created an electromagnets of that distance through the stator poles, N one end, S other for example....
So very simple.
Now what about all the winds in between 1 and 6?
They all become INDDUCED  PICKUP WINDS (sharing common core) and they will for sure make lots and lots of power especially all combined together too....
BUT will only "make" this power if you put DIODES on those winds and guide this energy into a cap bank for example where to put it (what Pierre does!)
No diodes, you will see nothing!
My personal perhaps warped opinion is that THIS is where the huge amount of energy produced in Pierres DZ generator comes from (my theory sorry)
Pulse one coil - induce 4 or 5 in
concsequence but it is not a consequence it is a reinforcement of energy created  and this energy fills up the cap  bank, keeps it looping with no more input, once you also pre0charge the cap bank.
ALSO
There is a "combination" (coherence as Ole will call it) of the induced pickup winds, and the backemf/recoil/flyback energy - this makes the caps fill up even faster....
Anyways in conclusion it looks like to me the diodes are being completely ignored in Pierre's build, and I will guess everyone is thinking the internal diodes in the H-bridges are doing this work, but actually they will not do shit (sorry) they are only there to be a protection mechanism, not a steering mechanism of this energy....
Try to pull out the backemf/recoil with any transistor or mosfet without some fast steering diodes guiding into caps....
Try tp put any emergy into caps with induced pickup winds that share common core with primary pulse??
All will be fruitless without the diodes into caps.

Hi konehead,

My test device collects all the coils return (inductive discharge) back into my 5 Farad super capacitor power rails.
You can see the current return from the current probe in this video which I made for programing but hasn't been shared yet.
The return may represent about 30% of the input power. However, my output coil sucks, maybe 1 or 2% of the input power.
We don't yet know of or understand all of Pierre's secrets.
Looking forward to seeing your test results and device.
Regards
Luc

Video Link: https://youtu.be/SSKH8qmb5VQ (https://youtu.be/SSKH8qmb5VQ)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gmolina on April 16, 2018, 05:53:08 AM
Hi Luc, in my understanding of this device, you need first magnetize the core and after them sustain this with much little requeriments of energy, for that reason the field can't be detroyed, because if you destroy the field destroy the core magnetization, in Pierre video when he connect power supply to the arduino, begin first one initial sequence (i suppose that is for the core magnetization) and after that the working sequence well knowed.

Regards,

GM
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 16, 2018, 06:38:06 AM
Hi Luc, in my understanding of this device, you need first magnetize the core and after them sustain this with much little requeriments of energy, for that reason the field can't be detroyed, because if you destroy the field destroy the core magnetization, in Pierre video when he connect power supply to the arduino, begin first one initial sequence (i suppose that is for the core magnetization) and after that the working sequence well knowed.
GM

" in Pierre video when he connect power supply to the arduino, begin first one initial sequence (i suppose that is for the core magnetization) and after that the working sequence well knowed.
"
I can confirm that. It's easy to see in slow mo.
Has that something to do with all Pierres diodes going to plus?

It is strange that Pierres digital voltmeter COMES ON and lits  BEFORE the main 5 Hz Arduino sequence starts ???
3:rd film 10.0 min.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on April 16, 2018, 08:13:41 AM

" in Pierre video when he connect power supply to the arduino, begin first one initial sequence (i suppose that is for the core magnetization) and after that the working sequence well knowed.
"
I can confirm that. It's easy to see in slow mo.
Has that something to do with all Pierres diodes going to plus?

It is strange that Pierres digital voltmeter COMES ON and lits  BEFORE the main 5 Hz Arduino sequence starts ???
3:rd film 10.0 min.

I believe he is talking about this....I thought the same ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 16, 2018, 08:36:18 AM
72 diodes connected Only to + and somewhere ?   (72 relays, 36 coils)

And middle connections without labels  35 empty 36 = one single point between two coils and two relays with TWO diodes in parallel ??
How are the diodes connected on the Arduino compared with Pierres connections?

35                    36
coil       relay    2xdiodes
orange|blue|black,green
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Andy71 on April 16, 2018, 11:28:00 AM
Hello
Try it.
Which type of diode does Pierre use?
Are sb 580 schottky diode sufficient?
80V, 5A
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: forest on April 16, 2018, 03:28:51 PM
Andy71


Thanks.Very valuable circuit.I wonder if we can make smaller scale model this way. How to eliminate trigger coil and turn both MPS transistors from Arduino at the same moment  ? Can you post such modified version too ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 16, 2018, 04:09:31 PM

The easiest way to vary the current through all of the coils is with PWM.

We are generating a travelling wave via the rotating poles lets say at 10Hz, then via PWM we superimpose 60Hz on top of the 10Hz wave?



L192


  I believe you are on the right track! Look at Peirre's scope shot, you clearly see the variations of pulse width.  Pierre has 24 lines of code, while PMGR(LUC's code) has 20 lines of code.  BTW, the bug discussed earlier in the code, does not make a huge enough difference in the current variation.   You have three ways to approach variation.  1.  Time, 2. Amplitude, 3. Frequency.  Just like sound has three principle elements.


If we divide the code into 4 quarters, you can think of each quarter as a typical quarter wave!  Set each quarter of the code with alternating delay values.  The total freq can remain the same, in Luc's code, 20 total lines = 1 cycle or one FULL WAVE.  We already know that varying the freq. of the loop with delays varies the current draw.    Why not purposely set alternating groups of delays to simulate variation of current!!  Does this make sense?


Other thoughts,
1. Do the variation of delay values on the half wave.  Not sure this will work, but worth a try. 
2. Vary the offsets (instead of 5,5,5,5  make it 1,5,5,5,4)
3. Alternating on the the full-wave!

I don't believe variations of delay between the HIGH's and LOW's will make a difference! You don't establish WAVE, you just establish overlap control of the windings.  So you can't think of delay variation based on the switch, you have to think of it as a variation on the wave, in quarters, half, fullwave. 

Cheers,

JerDee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 16, 2018, 04:28:01 PM
We already know that varying the freq. of the loop with delays varies the current draw.    Why not purposely set alternating groups of delays to simulate variation of current!!  Does this make sense?
JerDee

 A simple test: Set the Arduino to 50Hz and via a cap modulate the pot-input from a  signal-generator (sinus, square? etc.) with a lower freq.
/ Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 16, 2018, 05:30:49 PM
A simple test: Set the Arduino to 50Hz and via a cap modulate the pot-input from a  signal-generator (sinus, square? etc.) with a lower freq.
/ Arne


Yes, I believe this has to be synced to a harmonic of the FULLWAVE of the code.  I may be wrong on this. 


Also, along your thoughts, the original code had a ADC value mapped to the delay value.  So yes, a sine, square..etc.. to the ADC is a possibility.   If you look at this approach,  Pierre could have used a SQUARE wave to alternate the delay values.  I see alternation of two sets on his scope shot!


JerDee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 16, 2018, 07:18:42 PM


Update video: https://youtu.be/cpce2mnn5G8
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Slider2732 on April 16, 2018, 08:10:51 PM
A very interesting video Luc.
Am glad the Propeller has sorted things, perhaps also because your friend nearby can actually look at any problems to fix them and likely could do so far quicker than shooting videos etc for help here.
If it works it works :)

So...you pull coil 30 and things improve. Do you think that there is a secondly function of the microcontroller code ?
To create an imbalance and, for want of better words, the natural entropy is what manifests as an OU situation for those split microseconds of every time it changes ? That section would tie into the PWM thoughts and apologies to all if i'm slow on that one !
Or, perhaps, remove 30, 24, 18, 12, 6 and see what happens.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 16, 2018, 09:19:35 PM
For comparison

Actually your waveform is not too bad Gotoluc!

Added the adjacent poles.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 16, 2018, 09:47:28 PM


New results using a Variation program written by jerdee: https://youtu.be/bLJsMcGm6AQ (https://youtu.be/bLJsMcGm6AQ)


The below pictures are Pierre's Stator windings then My Stator windings (related to video)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 16, 2018, 09:57:10 PM


Scope shot of current with H30 Connected and then without H30 connected using the Variation program by jerdee demonstrated in above video.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 16, 2018, 10:40:47 PM

New results using a Variation program written by jerdee: https://youtu.be/bLJsMcGm6AQ (https://youtu.be/bLJsMcGm6AQ)


The below pictures are Pierre's Stator windings then My Stator windings (related to video)


I think it is still a 6 slot pitch.

L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 16, 2018, 11:52:04 PM

New results using a Variation program written by jerdee: https://youtu.be/bLJsMcGm6AQ (https://youtu.be/bLJsMcGm6AQ)


The below pictures are Pierre's Stator windings then My Stator windings (related to video)


Take a look at my stator from another angle. See how the top winding twists.

If these were wound tighter they would look very much like Pierre's.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 17, 2018, 03:56:00 AM
New video from Pierre about his stator windings (Correct link this time)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnjIoQ2rh8

Maybe someone can transcribe the French and then translate it into English.

It is not clear to me (I can't understand spoken French very well) why he has coils grouped in sets of three (not six) and what the numbers at the bottom of his chart mean. I think he also states the number of windings per coil and talks about a spiral wind?

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pedro1 on April 17, 2018, 04:48:40 AM
this one works!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnjIoQ2rh8
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 17, 2018, 07:22:38 AM
I was away for 4 hours and it is now past 1am. I made a copy of Pierre's winding instructions video and will explain tomorrow after viewing it after 10am New York time.
Pierre will probably delete the video from his youtube account when he knows I have a copy.
Regards
Luc

Fr.  J'étais absent pendant 4 heures et il est maintenant passé 1h du matin. J'ai fait une copie de la vidéo des instructions bobinage de Pierre et j'expliquerai demain après l'avoir vu a 10h heure de New York.
Pierre probablement  supprimera la vidéo de son compte YouTube lorsqu'il sait que jai une copie.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 17, 2018, 07:26:53 AM
this one works!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnjIoQ2rh8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnjIoQ2rh8)

Thanks Pierre for taking the time to make a video of exactly how your stator coil winding were done.
Regards
Luc

Fr. Merci à Pierre d'avoir pris le temps de faire une vidéo de la façon exacte dont le bobinage de votre stator a été réalisé.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 17, 2018, 10:26:20 AM
5 connectors , confirmation
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 17, 2018, 01:56:14 PM
Frequency, current switching ??
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 17, 2018, 02:38:36 PM
Transcription (j'espère sans erreur) de l'audio de la vidéo "filage première bobine" de Pierre :

FR

Bonsoir Luc,
je vais t'expliquer quand même comment j'ai filé mon ancien rotor.
Tu vois, c'est pas bien compliqué. Là, moi j'ai fait comme tu as fait, un coup de six bobines.
En principe, j'ai monté comme ça. Je suis allé dans le sixième? Je suis revenu.
J'ai fait trente-cinq tours, je crois.
Une fois que les trente-cinq tours ont été faits, je me suis sorti un fil ici.
puis j'ai continué. Au lieu de retourner ici, je suis reparti ici.
Puis j'ai refait encore 35 tours, puis là, je me suis mis encore dans celle d'à-côté.
Puis j'ai fait ça jusqu'au bout.
Puis arrivé au bout, et bien là, il fallait que je remplisse parce que là, moi j'avais deux espaces, deux étages de fil.
Ça fait que le premier étage était monté ici, mais il fallait que ça revienne.
Et ça, ce sont les fils de l'autre bout. C'est comme la trente-deux, elle se termine ici, et est revenue à la première.
Après, il fallait que je fasse l'autre après, ainsi de suite.
Cela a tout bouclé ma spire au complet.
C'est juste pour ça que ça donne la moitié d'une spire différente.
En fait, comme une boucle carrée, je pense que ça fait la même chose.
c'est juste que tous sont comme décalés un peu. Moi, c'est juste vraiment une spirale que j'ai faite.
Là, tu vois, je pense que ça donne le même résultat que la mienne.
C'est pour ça qu'on n'a pas le même résultat visuel, mais physiquement, je pense que ça donne la la même chose.
C'est pour ça qu'à la fin, moi j'ai comme une grosse motte qui s'est faite.
C'est parce que les fils ne devaient pas être égaux comme les tiens parce que tu as roulé ça sur un rouleau.
Moi, j'ai tout fait ça sur une mitaine. C'est pour ça que c'est moins beau visuellement.
Mais en théorie ça devrait donner le même résultat que l'autre.
Si tu veux comparer la prochaine bobine, là, avec celle-là, là.
Il y a une bonne différence de grosseur.
J'en suis juste là. J'avance pas vite. Je ne passe pas beaucoup d'heures là-dessus par semaine.
Une étape à la fois, une bobine à la fois.
Dès que je serai plus avancé que ça, je te montrerai la vidéo de suite.
Merci.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 17, 2018, 03:25:38 PM
Frequency, current switching ??

Right. Something is varying
The funny thing is that I thougt I could hear that variation or see it at the films beceause it is a relativily wide variation as we can see from the osc.scope shot.

My Reply #472 on: April 15, 2018

 (Figuera pat.1908) " circulates a proper current, which is taken from one foreign
origin into one or more electromagnets, magnetize one or more
electromagnets"

" and while
 A))  the current is higher or lower the magnetization of the electromagnets

B ))  one or more
(electromagnets )

C))   is decreasing or increasing and  varying "  (frequency variation?? )

Regards  Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 17, 2018, 04:32:02 PM
New video from Pierre about his stator windings (Correct link this time)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnjIoQ2rh8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnjIoQ2rh8)

Maybe someone can transcribe the French and then translate it into English.

It is not clear to me (I can't understand spoken French very well) why he has coils grouped in sets of three (not six) and what the numbers at the bottom of his chart mean. I think he also states the number of windings per coil and talks about a spiral wind?

PmgR

Good morning everyone,

Pierre's video confirms we had the coil winding instructions correct. The reason why his winding look so different is he wound his coils directly on the stator itself one wire turn at a time compared to me and probably others we pre-wound our coils on a form. So a 36 slot stator has 36 coils with a 6 slot space and once the first 6 coils are in place the beginning of coil 7 merges in the same slot (slot 6) of the end of coil 1 and you keep this pattern all the way around to the end. which is exactly what I did. However, it may of been better for my 30 slot stator to use a 5 slot space.
Then all the coils are connected in series, end of coil 36 connects to the beginning of coil 1 and end of coil 1 connects to the beginning of coil 2 and you keep this pattern all the way around. All coils must be wound the same direction and set in the slots the exact same way.
This confirms we don't need any unusual variation in our windings themselves and that we only need to focus on the switching sequence to achieve the desired effect.
Thanks Pierre for helping clear that question.
Regards
Luc

Fr.  La vidéo de Pierre confirme que nous avions les instructions d'enroulement de les bobines correctes. La raison pour laquelle son enroulement a l'air si différent est qu'il a enroulé ses bobines directement sur le stator un tour de fil à la fois par rapport à moi et probablement d'autres nous pré-enroulons nos bobines sur une forme. Donc, un stator de 36 fentes a 36 bobines avec un espace de 6 fentes et une fois que les premières 6 bobines sont en place, le début de la bobine 7 fusionne dans la même fente (fente 6) de la fin de la bobine 1 et vous gardez ce motif jusqu'à les 36 bobine sont en place. ce qui est exactement ce que j'ai fait. Cependant, il a peut-être été préférable que mon stator à 30 emplacements utilise un espace de 5 fentes.
Après, toutes les bobines sont connectées en série, la fin de la bobine 36 se connecte au début de la bobine 1 et la fin de la bobine 1 se connecte au début de la bobine 2 et vous gardez ce motif tout autour. Toutes les bobines doivent être enroulées dans le même sens et placées dans les fentes exactement de la même manière.
Cela confirme que nous n'avons pas besoin d'une variation dans nos enroulements de bobine eux-mêmes et que nous devons nous concentrer sur la séquence de commutation pour obtenir l'effet désiré.
Merci Pierre d'avoir aidé à clarifier cette question.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 17, 2018, 04:46:57 PM
FR:
Quelques autres questions non répondues:
- pourquoi 37 transistors? Quel est le rôle du 37 ème ?
- Il semble qu'il y a un ou plusieurs fils supplémentaires connectés directement au stator. Ces fils ne passent pas par l'un des 5 connecteurs verts. A quoi servent-ils ?
- Comme Pierre cache encore un secret es-ce vrai que le programme Arduino publié est celui vraiment utilisé ?

EN:
Some other unanswered questions:
- why 37 transistors? What is the role of the 37th?
- It seems that there is one or more additional wires connected directly to the stator. These wires do not go through one of the 5 green connectors. What are they doing?
- As Pierre still hides a secret is it true that the Arduino program published is the one really used?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 17, 2018, 04:56:49 PM
Good morning everyone,

Pierre's video confirms we had the coil winding instructions correct. The reason why his winding look so different is he wound his coils directly on the stator itself one wire turn at a time compared to me and probably others we pre-wound our coils on a form. So a 36 slot stator has 36 coils with a 6 slot space and once the first 6 coils are in place the beginning of coil 7 merges in the same slot (slot 6) of the end of coil 1 and you keep this pattern all the way around to the end. which is exactly what I did. However, it may of been better for my 30 slot stator to use a 5 slot space.
Then all the coils are connected in series, end of coil 36 connects to the beginning of coil 1 and end of coil 1 connects to the beginning of coil 2 and you keep this pattern all the way around. All coils must be wound the same direction and set in the slots the exact same way.
This confirms we don't need any unusual variation in our windings themselves and that we only need to focus on the switching sequence to achieve the desired effect.
Thanks Pierre for helping clear that question.
Regards
Luc

Fr.  La vidéo de Pierre confirme que nous avions les instructions d'enroulement de les bobines correctes. La raison pour laquelle son enroulement a l'air si différent est qu'il a enroulé ses bobines directement sur le stator un tour de fil à la fois par rapport à moi et probablement d'autres nous pré-enroulons nos bobines sur une forme. Donc, un stator de 36 fentes a 36 bobines avec un espace de 6 fentes et une fois que les premières 6 bobines sont en place, le début de la bobine 7 fusionne dans la même fente (fente 6) de la fin de la bobine 1 et vous gardez ce motif jusqu'à les 36 bobine sont en place. ce qui est exactement ce que j'ai fait. Cependant, il a peut-être été préférable que mon stator à 30 emplacements utilise un espace de 5 fentes.
Après, toutes les bobines sont connectées en série, la fin de la bobine 36 se connecte au début de la bobine 1 et la fin de la bobine 1 se connecte au début de la bobine 2 et vous gardez ce motif tout autour. Toutes les bobines doivent être enroulées dans le même sens et placées dans les fentes exactement de la même manière.
Cela confirme que nous n'avons pas besoin d'une variation dans nos enroulements de bobine eux-mêmes et que nous devons nous concentrer sur la séquence de commutation pour obtenir l'effet désiré.
Merci Pierre d'avoir aidé à clarifier cette question.
Cordialement
Luc

Hi Gotoluc,

If you look at my post 491, you will see that your distribution is better than mine, for forming a sine, so I would keep what you have.

The overlap however, is not efficient and to get a good sine distribution without overlap, 6 coils and 6 poles requires a much larger stator than 36 slots.

I think Pierre realized this when he was talking about reducing to 4 coils on the original stator. He realized he would loose too much MMF.

Anyway he still achieved OU, so push on with what we know.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 17, 2018, 05:06:37 PM
FR:
Quelques autres questions non répondues:
- pourquoi 37 transistors? Quel est le rôle du 37 ème ?
- Il semble qu'il y a un ou plusieurs fils supplémentaires connectés directement au stator. Ces fils ne passent pas par l'un des 5 connecteurs verts. A quoi servent-ils ?
- Comme Pierre cache encore un secret es-ce vrai que le programme Arduino publié est celui vraiment utilisé ?

EN:
Some other unanswered questions:
- why 37 transistors? What is the role of the 37th?
- It seems that there is one or more additional wires connected directly to the stator. These wires do not go through one of the 5 green connectors. What are they doing?
- As Pierre still hides a secret is it true that the Arduino program published is the one really used?

Yes, there was a 37 pinMode listed in Pierres original code, so it controlled something, but not a relay (at least not one we can see), as relay boards are fully occupied with slot switches.

My guess would be a PWM controlled semiconductor switch for the DC supply into the switches.

Regards

L192 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: FixedSys on April 17, 2018, 05:22:58 PM
Update video: https://youtu.be/cpce2mnn5G8

Fantastic build and very interesting. Can your measuring equipment calculate integral of the current waveform? Those figures would be interesting.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: dole on April 17, 2018, 05:31:25 PM
Pole strength fluctuation, transition and coil shorted:
Yellow:     
*coil connection and polarity, first phase, continues for all (not shown)
*(+1,-5), (+1,+2,-5), (+1,+2,+3,-5) firing sequence, strength and shorted
*Apples for positive and negative connection (negative not shown)
White:   
*(+2,-6), pole movement, next phase (+2,+3,-6),(+2,+3,+4,-6) and everything repeats again
1    2   
2    3
3    4
(Does anybody see how end where counter flux go’s? I tried principle on the small DC motor/generator, didn’t work good as I had 3 coils rotor only,( 3, 5,.. problem). I will try it with 4 coils rotor)
PS.
Luc, you have everything there so if you see it correct jus reprogram little bit.
(Just like heating/cooling pump :-))

Thanks
d.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Andy71 on April 18, 2018, 07:42:20 AM
Can Pierre tell us the type of diodes?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 18, 2018, 09:33:57 AM
The deductive powers here are amazing.


There's 36 independantly wound coils.  This gives the experimenter the absolute most control over what gets activated when.
There could roughly be 5 phases with 6 coils each in series... However, the timing on the LEDs of the transistors show that only 3 sets are active at a time a set being 1 or 2 coils on...




There board had 7 transistors across and 5 rows; which is only 35, but there is one toward the upper left that's like #36.


In the first two rows - 7 LEDs across, the LEDs light first going from right to left across the first and third rows.  As third row ends, the right side of row 2 starts.  Row 3 is just 2 LEDs ahead of row one.  But then the end of row 2 is reached and then 3 and 1 start again...


So there's not just 5 phases...


the 4th row starts at the right, goes across to the left and then starts again immediately.  when it gets to the 4th LED to the left, the 5th row starts... and remains offset 2 les...


// this really needs mono font/preformat... it's not  \[code\] ...
row 4   . . . . . . .   . . . . . . o  . . . . . o o  . . . . o o .     . . o o . .    . o o . . .
row 5   . . . . . . .   . . . . . . .   . . . . . . .    . . . . . .     . . . . . o    . . . . o o

I really liked andy's animation in the other thread, though it should be made more obvious it's more of a stepping like ....

coil 1,2 on;
coil 1 going off, coil 3 coming on,
coil 2,3 on
coil 2 going off, coil 4 coming on,
coil 3,4 on

etc....

There's a few stutters on the 4th and 5th rows... where it kinda stops...

Kinda like the iron filings moved around in two semi-circles and kinda stopped at the two sides; I thought maybe it was because that was also where the laminated core was ... but it's not quite.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pedro1 on April 18, 2018, 12:23:07 PM
The numbers at the bottom of my sketch have no relation with what I explained in the video. The sketch is something I made for myself at beginning of my project. It is useless to look it try to find an answer to your questions. If you understood French, then you would know the sketch was only used to explain how I wound my stator.

Regards

Pierre Cotnoir
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 18, 2018, 02:38:54 PM
Blue LED sequence

https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8 (https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8)

Sorry i forgot to publish the video.
i'ts Ok now.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 18, 2018, 08:12:24 PM
Hi Luc, in my understanding of this device, you need first magnetize the core and after them sustain this with much little requeriments of energy, for that reason the field can't be detroyed, because if you destroy the field destroy the core magnetization, in Pierre video when he connect power supply to the arduino, begin first one initial sequence (i suppose that is for the core magnetization) and after that the working sequence well knowed.

Regards,

GM

DC magnetization around the stator reduces output with either polarity.

AC magnetization around the stator does increase output although I have only tested this asynchronously, which results in a cyclic boost in output.   

Sine modulation of the DC rail also boosts output but once again I have only tested asynchronously, so this was also cyclic.

Also I have placed a 20V AC transformer secondary in series with the 30 coils (30 slot stator), this also cyclically boosts output .

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 18, 2018, 10:09:21 PM
DC magnetization around the stator reduces output with either polarity.

AC magnetization around the stator does increase output although I have only tested this asynchronously, which results in a cyclic boost in output.   

Sine modulation of the DC rail also boosts output but once again I have only tested asynchronously, so this was also cyclic.

Also I have placed a 20V AC transformer secondary in series with the 30 coils (30 slot stator), this also cyclically boosts output .

Regards

L192
You can't have any DC flux. The rotor needs AC flux, only that way can you generate a voltage.

This setup is a combo of a 2 phase and 3 phase generator. The way each of the 6 coils (6 poles) needs to be biased is as follows (assuming they are numbered 1 through 6 in clock wise direction):

Coilset 1 and Coilset 4 needs to be biased 180deg out of sync (so if coilset 1 = +1, coilset 4 is -1 or 180deg).
Same for coilset 3 and coilset 6.
Same for coilset 5 and coilset 2.
Coilset 1, 5 and 3 need to be biased 120deg out of phase so if coilset 1 is 0deg, coilset 5 needs to be at 120deg and coilset 3 at 240deg.

Only in that way will the flux properly add up when it goes through the stator. You need to make sure that you can bias your coils in this way while looping around.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 18, 2018, 11:02:19 PM
It's a moving magnetic field.... literally, and the hard way...


in the case of allowed induction paths; (as tinman recently demonstrated, a incomplete loop is not likely to absorbe collapsing/expanding flux)


It's like those radus mag boos/( magnetic reluctance motor?  conventionally?) Flux-gate generator?


the thing is, it has a north in one semi-path and a south on the other, and they rotate, and skip back to the start and rotate again... and probably the thrash from left to right is more of the cycle's power than any other... it'd be nice to see what the output wave at the output coil (with a load) on the static-rotor, vs a logic state of the 36 others... though I'd take a raw pulse train at the capacitors... before any filtering/recapture diodes.




In the case of self induction (to go back to the first point )


As one field is energed and de-energizeswhat current is generated in the on the's going from no energy to positive current?  Does the current just sort of continue in the winding with near 0 resistance instead of the one with infinite (relay open) resistance... well that's not what the arduino is doing huh?  Because it entirely dis... well there is an overlap of each 2, but not 3... so I suppose the new one that's been enabled gets 2x the current?  (The field resists the colapse....)?  It's actually a dc(edit:NO!) output huh?  Because the field never reverses through the center stator-rotor(?)   


When the circuit is opened, the current that generated a magnetic does NOT instananously reverse... but rather it wants to continue.  Or else, they wouldn't use filtering beads to smooth instantanous peaks/lulls in current.  it(the current) will be induced in the same direction until the magneitc field is no more.  In this case, the general field is not no more.


Perhaps that's where the stutter mapps... because it does get a good deal of mangic reluctance builtup in the iron... Probably there's a de-gaussing direction momentarily....(?)

I don't see how you will ever get anywhere near this with any of the coils in series with any other coil. (@gotoluc)


Edit:
Otherwise it's PMH's ... setting up magnetic loops between all of the possible stator fins through the block, and then collapsing them? 


Oh i remember; there was a frequency measure on the output that was 60 hz So no it's not DC... but then 60 RPM


Edit2: Based on the last arduino video... This is the pattern...
Some of the coils are north, some are south.
Are the 72 relays connected   power->relay->coil->relay->transistor drive/diode recapture   so DPDT relays could work there?


1 transistor controls 2 relays... do the relays engage two pairs of coils?  Or is it 2 breaks in the same circuit?  (Only inventory can really answer)


I would think though that the polarity of any single coil is always the same....


The colored vertical bands group what seems to be a cyclic sub-group.  The cycle block color changes going down for each cycle.  A full pass (red blocks, or yellow, the green overflows into what would partially be the next cycle...) would be 16.666ms
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 19, 2018, 03:04:49 AM
Thank you for your help Pierre, looking forward to the translation from LUC.


Everyone, listen to the MP3 file attached.

  I was able to do forensic audio on the YT vids and extract the timing pattern.
This was pitched down considerably and slowed down to hear the pattern clearly.
You will hear immediately the pattern that was placed in the original code.  Pierre has been very honest! Two HIGH's at the beginning of 12 and TWO lows at the end of 12 pulses.
Each clack of the audio is a HIGH in the repeating pulsings of relays in the code.  His code is correct!


1-High
2-High
    low
3-High
    low
4-High
   low
5-High
   low
6-High
   low
7-High
   low
8-High
   low
9-High
   low
10-High
   low
11-High
   low
12-High
   low
   low


Just wanted everyone to know that this is the pattern, and there is no confusion on this. This was meant to be in the code !!!


Jerdee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 19, 2018, 03:55:28 AM

Why have we not thought of utilzing both a 36 and the 30 pole in normal generator cycles?


It is very clear that Pierre is using overlap of the code to push the magnetic field from set to another set of coils.  He is also reversing the coils!


I believe the CODE pins are not suppose to line up with coil numbers in succession. The code is correct, its the connection to the coils.  The HUGE clue is the TWO HIGH's and the TWO LOW in the code.  LEARN the cycle of a generator.


We have to think about another way to connect the code pins to the correct arrangement of coils.  Luc is only using 1/2 of his bridges and diode recovery.  I REPEAT HE IS ONLY USING HALF BRIDGES.  The coils need to be flipped just like a normal generator!!!  This is why we are getting a very weak field and very little output.


Maybe this gif will help you all to think about a three phase system.  THINK THINK THINK!


Look at the gif.


JerDee


[size=78%]https://solidstateelectricgenerator.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/syncron-generator.gif (https://solidstateelectricgenerator.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/syncron-generator.gif)[/size]
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 19, 2018, 04:00:28 AM
bonsoir a tous ,
j'ai regarder les progret que vous fesiez sur le site de overunity et naturelement j'ai vue l'exellent travail de luc et de sont superbe appareil qu'il a réussi a faire tourner un champ magnétique et il semble être sur la bonne voie mais il va toujour vous manquer quelque chose et je ne voit pas grand monde penser a ces points crutiaux vous êtes trop concentrer a faire une réplique de mon prototype les bobines,3pole ,6pole le nombre de transistor etc 
je voit que personne ne sait jamais poser  la vrai question de comment peut-on faire du courant  et qu'est ce qui se passe en décomposant le cycle d'une génératrice ,si vous comprener vraiment cela  par la suite vous serez en mesure de mieux comprendre le principe du dz générateur et vous n'aurez plus besoin d'essayer de copier le dz générateur qui est loin d'être parfait il y a beaucoup de chose a améliorer sur cette version
-permièrement ,que se passe t-il quand l'on approche une aimant d'une bobine il y a une variation du champ magnétique et plus l'on approche de la bobine collectrice il y a un champ d'opposition qui se crée donc une variation et l'intensité de cette aimant a une grande importance
donc VARIATION ET INTENSITÉ sont les mots a retenir
-deuxièmement ,quand la vitesse de déplacement de ce champ magnétique est passer rapidement plus grande seras la fluctuation sauf quand c'est une bobine électro-aimant il faut prendre note qu'il y a unTEMPS DE CHARGE  de la bobine et si le champ magnétique  est déplacé trop rapidement avant que la charge soit completement charger vous aurez une perte a ce niveau en plus de la perte du retour de bobine .
-troisiement ,le MOUVEMENT  de ce champ magnétique que vous avez commencer a expérimenter donc vous commencer a comprendre
-et  finalement il y a les RETOUR DE BOBINE si vous les canaliser au bon endroit et au bon moment vous aurez un alier très puissant et non seulement un destructeur de mosfet  cela s'avère un partenaire très intéressant a utiliser
 bien sure il y a des pertes dans les bobines et dans la resistance  etc, mais si l'on compare le dz générateur a une génératrice avec un moteur a combustion qui a des perte de friction de chaleur et l'électro-aimant du rotor que l'on doit alimenter  l'on doit frôler le 70% ou plus  de perte cela ne se compare pas au dz générateur au quelle j'ai éliminer la plus grosse perte c'est a dire le moteur a combustion  ,dans mon premier prototype j'ai fait des erreurs de conception
dans la bobine je croit que le fait de croiser les champs peuvent nuire a la performance c'est pour cela que j'ai changer ma méthode dans mon second prototype il y a surment plusieurs façon de concevoir un dz générateur je vient de vous fournir tout les ingrédient pour faire un tel apareil il suffit de faire votre propre recette  avec les 4 point que je vous ait donner et il est très probable  que vous obtiendrez un overunity il y a juste a mettre le bon dosage au bon endroit j'espère que vous prendrez note de ce message car c'est le secret du dz générateur ce sont les 4 point qui on été mentionner plus haut  si un de ces points n'est pas dans le montage que vous faite vous n'aurez jamais un surplus d'énergie j'espère que mon commentaire vous seras utile pour la suite et je ne traduirai pas ce message je vais laisser une autre personne faire la traduction car il parait que google traduction n'est pas très bon pour avoir une bonne traduction bonne soirée la dessus .
                                                                                                                                                                                      pierre cotnoir
Thank you Pierre for the explanation.


This is my take on his four points:

1. He mentions the CHANGE of a magnetic field (which is achieved by rotating the magnetic poles at a frequency f by the Arduino) and he talks about the change in the STRENGTH of the magnetic field itself (which is achieved by the change in current through the coils). The largest current change occurs for the coils that are shorted for a short time during the Arduino overlap; before the overlap, the current through this coil is e.g. positive, during the overlap the current is constant, then after the overlap it reverses direction and becomes negative). So it changes from a positive current to a negative current (large dI/dt), so on top of the rotating magnetic field, there is an additional change in magnetic field due to the change in current direction. As a side note: generated voltage at output coil (and for BEMF) V=-dflux/dt where flux=L*I (inductance*current), so V=-(I*dL/dt+L*dI/dt), first term is caused by the spinning magnetic field (also called parametric variation), second term is caused by change of current (caused by switching of current direction).

2. He talks about how fast the magnetic field changes which is proportional to the frequency at which the field spins around (frequency f). So the faster you spin the field the larger the generated voltage. However he mentions the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of a coil. The highest frequency a coil can respond to is f=R/(2*pi*L). He says that if you spin the field too fast, you will get a loss trying to charge coil and thus also in the return of the coil. In order to get the highest possible frequency, there is a trade-off between R and L. R is proportional to the number of windings, L is proportional to N^2 (square of N), so frequency is proportional to 1/N. So if you want a large frequency, you can't make too many windings per coil.

3. He talks about the MOVEMENT of the magnetic field here which is done by the Arduino and he says that is we need to study that first. This is why I suggested Luc go back to the small magnet and play with the Arduino code and speed it up and down to see where the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of his coils are. For Luc's coils, inductance is about L=2mH and R=0.5ohms, so highest frequency possible is about 40Hz. This might explain why he has no output at 50Hz as the coils can't respond fast enough. Typical safety factor is a factor of 2 below the f_max, so keep the spin speed at 20Hz or below.

4. Lastly he talks about the RETURN OF THE COIL (output coil) which will be reflected back to each of the six coil sets. He says that if you collect them at the right spot (coil) and at the right point in time, it will provide useful energy instead of destroying your mosfet. He says this is the most important point. In my understanding, this will also explain why his device is not dependent on load. Actually, the more load he puts on, the higher the collected current will be.

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 19, 2018, 04:05:50 AM
bonsoir a tous ,
champ d'opposition qui se crée donc une variation et l'intensité de cette aimant a une grande importance
donc VARIATION ET INTENSITÉ sont les mots a retenir
                                                                                                                                                                                      pierre cotnoir
How do you accomplish variance using digital relays?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 19, 2018, 04:10:26 AM
How do you accomplish variance using digital relays?
I believe this is achieved during the overlap time of the Arduino when a coil is shorted, see my post above. The current in that particular coil will change direction, e.g. from +1 to -1 in a very short period of time (determined by L/R time of coil).
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 10:26:35 AM
Thank you Pierre for the explanation.


This is my take on his four points:

1. He mentions the CHANGE of a magnetic field (which is achieved by rotating the magnetic poles at a frequency f by the Arduino) and he talks about the change in the STRENGTH of the magnetic field itself (which is achieved by the change in current through the coils). The largest current change occurs for the coils that are shorted for a short time during the Arduino overlap; before the overlap, the current through this coil is e.g. positive, during the overlap the current is constant, then after the overlap it reverses direction and becomes negative). So it changes from a positive current to a negative current (large dI/dt), so on top of the rotating magnetic field, there is an additional change in magnetic field due to the change in current direction. As a side note: generated voltage at output coil (and for BEMF) V=-dflux/dt where flux=L*I (inductance*current), so V=-(I*dL/dt+L*dI/dt), first term is caused by the spinning magnetic field (also called parametric variation), second term is caused by change of current (caused by switching of current direction).

2. He talks about how fast the magnetic field changes which is proportional to the frequency at which the field spins around (frequency f). So the faster you spin the field the larger the generated voltage. However he mentions the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of a coil. The highest frequency a coil can respond to is f=R/(2*pi*L). He says that if you spin the field too fast, you will get a loss trying to charge coil and thus also in the return of the coil. In order to get the highest possible frequency, there is a trade-off between R and L. R is proportional to the number of windings, L is proportional to N^2 (square of N), so frequency is proportional to 1/N. So if you want a large frequency, you can't make too many windings per coil.

3. He talks about the MOVEMENT of the magnetic field here which is done by the Arduino and he says that is we need to study that first. This is why I suggested Luc go back to the small magnet and play with the Arduino code and speed it up and down to see where the TIME CONSTANT (load speed) of his coils are. For Luc's coils, inductance is about L=2mH and R=0.5ohms, so highest frequency possible is about 40Hz. This might explain why he has no output at 50Hz as the coils can't respond fast enough. Typical safety factor is a factor of 2 below the f_max, so keep the spin speed at 20Hz or below.

4. Lastly he talks about the RETURN OF THE COIL (output coil) which will be reflected back to each of the six coil sets. He says that if you collect them at the right spot (coil) and at the right point in time, it will provide useful energy instead of destroying your mosfet. He says this is the most important point. In my understanding, this will also explain why his device is not dependent on load. Actually, the more load he puts on, the higher the collected current will be.

PmgR

To look at what we have at the moment running...
The distributed (lapped) windings that a pole consists of, create an increasing and then decreasing MMF in the rotor as the pole approaches and departs, then continuing with an opposite polarity pole in the same manner. It does this without having to increase the current through the pole coil group.

As we know that does not induce much EMF in the rotor winding, there must be something else of which I have still not seen anybody clearly explain. Pierre previously referred to his system having a variation in current.

1. Did he mean a variation in current  that would result in a further variation of MMF already occuring due to the distributed windings? If so how so?

2. Or did mean something more drastic such as a complete reversal of current for the whole system, at some point i.e. swapping the relay feed rail polarity?

Regards

L192

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 19, 2018, 10:41:50 AM
I believe this is achieved during the overlap time of the Arduino when a coil is shorted, see my post above. The current in that particular coil will change direction, e.g. from +1 to -1 in a very short period of time (determined by L/R time of coil).
PmgR


ya could be more or less windings inbetween tap  points too ...


like here if the coils were in series too I suppose you could activate sets of them... and for some, just reverse the polarity on the tap which would generate 'instant' opposite parlaity


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg519932/#msg519932



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 19, 2018, 11:03:19 AM

Sine modulation of the DC rail also boosts output but once again I have only tested asynchronously, so this was also cyclic.

Also I have placed a 20V AC transformer secondary in series with the 30 coils (30 slot stator), this also cyclically boosts output .

I would like to thank all the people here especially Pierre who gave us a motivation to continue questing in this field.
Jerdee i am impressed!  ;)

L192
By placing the secondary in series with the coils isn't actually the same as modulating the dc rail? In fact this is what i had in mind to do for varying the strength of the magnetic filed. But with a diode in between transformer and coils, so to feed the whole arrangement with a varying dc power signal.
What did you chose for driving your coils? L298 boards as Luc?

Guys i have my fresh painted stator on bench and plenty of aug22 wire. I am thinking to go like Pierre's second generator so to be able to cover this method as the most of you have built his first prototype. I have a small objection in the number of turns (Pierre used 95 turns) as it will not permit frequencies higher than few tenths of Hz. Perhaps D3's middle tapping idea is what it needs for experimentation. Will see..! 


Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 11:48:36 AM
I would like to thank all the people here especially Pierre who gave us a motivation to continue questing in this field.
Jerdee i am impressed!  ;)

L192
By placing the secondary in series with the coils isn't actually the same as modulating the dc rail? In fact this is what i had in mind to do for varying the strength of the magnetic filed. But with a diode in between transformer and coils, so to feed the whole arrangement with a varying dc power signal.
What did you chose for driving your coils? L298 boards as Luc?

Guys i have my fresh painted stator on bench and plenty of aug22 wire. I am thinking to go like Pierre's second generator so to be able to cover this method as the most of you have built his first prototype. I have a small objection in the number of turns (Pierre used 95 turns) as it will not permit frequencies higher than few tenths of Hz. Perhaps D3's middle tapping idea is what it needs for experimentation. Will see..!

Hi Jeg,

I have given up on the L298N boards, as soon as you increase current much over 4A I had multiple failures.

I have a BTS7960 twin bridge board on order for evaluation, but I have decided to now go with the relay boards until I can get an understanding of exactly how the recovery diodes are working, connected as Pierre has them. It looks like the current path is from ground via the remaining series coils in the group, though the coil that's been turned off then up through the diode on that side.
I would be reluctant to remove the lower diodes on a half bridge.

I went with 1000V 10A fast diodes for recovery.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 19, 2018, 12:00:47 PM
I made the attached gif animation of how I believe the fields are switched.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 19, 2018, 12:12:47 PM
Hi Jeg,

I have given up on the L298N boards, as soon as you increase current much over 4A I had multiple failures.

I have a BTS7960 twin bridge board on order for evaluation, but I have decided to now go with the relay boards until I can get an understanding of exactly how the recovery diodes are working, connected as Pierre has them. It looks like the current path is from ground via the remaining series coils in the group, though the coil that's been turned off then up through the diode on that side.
I would be reluctant to remove the lower diodes on a half bridge.

I went with 1000V 10A fast diodes for recovery.

Regards

L192

Thanks L192. Even it is wise to use the original Pierre's gear, i am still thinking the diy bridge solution. Especially now with this current limit report of yours. 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ARTMOSART on April 19, 2018, 12:28:42 PM
bonjour à tous ,

Merci Pierre pour les dernières informations  ,et bonne continuation pour ton nouveau prototype .

Variation du champ magnétique et intensité ?

que pensez vous de créer deux fois six pole magnétique ,en utilisant deux set de 18 bobines puis de faire tourner 6 pole dans le

 sens horlogique et  les 6 autres dans le sens anti-horlogique .ainsi le rotor verra le flux magnétique s'intensifier en un temps réduit

cordialement ,Mosha

EN/Hello everyone , Thank you Pierre for the latest information, and good luck for your new prototype.
 Magnetic field variation and intensity?
 what do you think of creating twice six magnetic pole, using two sets of 18 coils and then spin 6 pole in the  clockwise sense and the other six in the anti-clockwise direction. thus the rotor will see the magnetic flux intensify in a reduced time

 best regards, Mosha
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 19, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
I made the attached gif animation of how I believe the fields are switched.

Regards
Ole

You are on the right track!!  If you don't flip the polarity, you don't have a stronger AC field.  When we think of a normal AC generator with Pierre's normal known code.  We can split the code in half to reverse the polarity of the coils.  Pierre's uses 24 cycles in his code, LUC is using 20 cycles.  This means for a 30 pole generator you'll have 10 cycles for the north in one polarity, and 10 cycles of the south in the other polarity.  This is why you see his videos cycle every other relay!  You have to switch the field's direction to generate real power!  We've only been testing in one direction.

I've sent code to LUC that supports this plan..and set the sequence back to what was originally given with Pierre.  His code is correct, just changed to the 20 cycles (30 poles) instead of 24 cycles(36 poles).  I've kept the wait 1 and wait 2 for his PWM control.  But you'll see the two highs at the top, and the two lows at the bottom of the code, same as the audio that I investigated earlier.

Basically, taking the second half of the code or half wave and flipping polarity.  Very similar to the concept Luc tried with shorter delays in the second half of the cycle and got interesting results.  I think this is our MAJOR clue to work with these switches.

JerDee

Fr. Tu es sur la bonne piste!! Si vous n'inversez pas la polarité, vous n'avez pas de champ AC plus fort. Quand on pense à un générateur AC normal avec le code connu de Pierre. Nous pouvons diviser le code en deux pour inverser la polarité des bobines. Pierre utilise 24 cycles dans son code, LUC utilise 20 cycles. Cela signifie que pour un générateur de 30 pôles, vous aurez 10 cycles pour le nord dans une polarité, et 10 cycles du sud dans l'autre polarité. C'est pourquoi vous voyez dans les vidéos de Pierre un cycle sur tous les autres relais! Vous devez changer la direction du champ pour générer de la puissance réelle! Nous avons seulement testé dans une direction.

J'ai envoyé un code à LUC qui soutient ce plan ... et j'ai ramené la séquence à ce qui avait été donné à l'origine de Pierre. Son code est correct, juste changé pour les 20 cycles (30 pôles) au lieu de 24 cycles (36 pôles). J'ai gardé l'attente 1 et attendre 2 pour son contrôle PWM. Mais vous verrez les deux hauts en haut, et les deux bas en bas du code, comme dans le son audio que j'ai étudié plus tôt.

Fondamentalement, en prenant la deuxième moitié du code ou demi-onde et inversion de polarité. Très similaire au concept que Luc a essayé avec des retards plus courts dans la seconde moitié du cycle et obtenu des résultats intéressants. Je pense que c'est notre indice MAJEUR pour travailler avec ces commutateurs.

JerDee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 02:10:47 PM
I made the attached gif animation of how I believe the fields are switched.

Regards
Ole

Hi Ole,

your animation doesn't run. You may have to zip it and post it.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 02:46:07 PM
You are on the right track!!  If you don't flip the polarity, you don't have a stronger AC field.  When we think of a normal AC generator with Pierre's normal known code.  We can split the code in half to reverse the polarity of the coils.  Pierre's uses 24 cycles in his code, LUC is using 20 cycles.  This means for a 30 pole generator you'll have 10 cycles for the north in one polarity, and 10 cycles of the south in the other polarity.  This is why you see his videos cycle every other relay!  You have to switch the field's direction to generate real power!  We've only been testing in one direction.

I've sent code to LUC that supports this plan..and set the sequence back to what was originally given with Pierre.  His code is correct, just changed to the 20 cycles (30 poles) instead of 24 cycles(36 poles).  I've kept the wait 1 and wait 2 for his PWM control.  But you'll see the two highs at the top, and the two lows at the bottom of the code, same as the audio that I investigated earlier.

Basically, taking the second half of the code or half wave and flipping polarity.  Very similar to the concept Luc tried with shorter delays in the second half of the cycle and got interesting results.  I think this is our MAJOR clue to work with these switches.

JerDee

Fr. Tu es sur la bonne piste!! Si vous n'inversez pas la polarité, vous n'avez pas de champ AC plus fort. Quand on pense à un générateur AC normal avec le code connu de Pierre. Nous pouvons diviser le code en deux pour inverser la polarité des bobines. Pierre utilise 24 cycles dans son code, LUC utilise 20 cycles. Cela signifie que pour un générateur de 30 pôles, vous aurez 10 cycles pour le nord dans une polarité, et 10 cycles du sud dans l'autre polarité. C'est pourquoi vous voyez dans les vidéos de Pierre un cycle sur tous les autres relais! Vous devez changer la direction du champ pour générer de la puissance réelle! Nous avons seulement testé dans une direction.

J'ai envoyé un code à LUC qui soutient ce plan ... et j'ai ramené la séquence à ce qui avait été donné à l'origine de Pierre. Son code est correct, juste changé pour les 20 cycles (30 pôles) au lieu de 24 cycles (36 pôles). J'ai gardé l'attente 1 et attendre 2 pour son contrôle PWM. Mais vous verrez les deux hauts en haut, et les deux bas en bas du code, comme dans le son audio que j'ai étudié plus tôt.

Fondamentalement, en prenant la deuxième moitié du code ou demi-onde et inversion de polarité. Très similaire au concept que Luc a essayé avec des retards plus courts dans la seconde moitié du cycle et obtenu des résultats intéressants. Je pense que c'est notre indice MAJEUR pour travailler avec ces commutateurs.

JerDee


So that would mean north south sine like wave in the rotor followed every 180 degrees by a square wave when you flip the poles then followed by a sine wave?

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 03:37:03 PM
Thanks L192. Even it is wise to use the original Pierre's gear, i am still thinking the diy bridge solution. Especially now with this current limit report of yours.


My rotor cover 9 poles, so I am thinking of cutting off 1.5 poles width either side both ends so only a 6 pole width presents to the stator. Ideally I would like 5 but I can't remove that much.

I believe I am losing  a lot of MMF, as this  rotor was designed to sweep a distributed alternator stator phase winding that had a greater pole pitch, which makes sense, as 9 x 3 =27 so the rotor spans a phase with a single pole gap between each of the three phases.

My waveform was not as good as Gotoluc's and although our coil pitches are one slot different that doesn't explain what look like stator pole reversals.

All of the coils have had in-situ checks with a flux probe, so no I don't have coils reversed.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 06:57:35 PM
Have discovered something on my rotor, don't know why I did not see it straight away.

There are two ceramic magnets let into the rotor faces.

These set up an initial field to get the alternator generating output. They are detrimental to our operation, as our flux will be reversing poles.

I removed these and have seen an improvement in output and symmetry , as you would expect. It does leave a 13mm x 30mm x5mm deep slot, that will increase the overall reluctance of the rotor, which is unfortunate. It may be possible to plug the slot with a piece that I am planning to cut of the ends to shorten the face to 6 poles.

This may also explain the strange reversals in the pulse waveforms that I was getting. Unfortunately until my relays arrive, I cannot run a full set of switches.

 

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 19, 2018, 07:38:34 PM
Yes, you have to remove those magnets when using a Generator rotors. Those magnets are to start up the magnetization of the stator in most AC generators.
There's a product called Devcon which is a 2 part Iron resin.

Devcon video demo: https://youtu.be/zQXxdtki-x8 (https://youtu.be/zQXxdtki-x8)
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 19, 2018, 08:44:46 PM
Yes, you have to remove those magnets when using a Generator rotors. Those magnets are to start up the magnetization of the stator in most AC generators.
There's a product called Devcon which is a 2 part Iron resin.

Devcon video demo: https://youtu.be/zQXxdtki-x8 (https://youtu.be/zQXxdtki-x8)

Hi Gotoluc,

Thanks for the video.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 19, 2018, 10:06:30 PM
Well people are free to experiment with other configurations i they wish but I intend to stick with Pierre's original scheme, on the basis that it was shown to work and an understanding  of how it works is the easiest path to further development, as there are too many variables otherwise.

Regards
L192

I agree L192,
Pierre has laid the foundations and gave away what needs to be achieved:  http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520075/#msg520075 (http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520075/#msg520075)

Since then, there's 2 pages added of discussions which are not related to what Pierre has just shared. Why?... Pierre must be in disbelief of what's going on with people here when he just gave it all away.... if you ask me, that's disrespectful and insulting.
I'm going to go through those 2 pages now and will delete anything that's not related to what Pierre has just shared. There's been more than enough discussion of all kinds of possibilities and enough is enough.

Regards
Luc

Fr.  Je suis d'accord L192,
Pierre vient de donner les bases de ce qui doit être réalisé: http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520075/#msg520075
Depuis, il y a 2 pages de discussions qui ne sont pas liées à ce que Pierre vient de partager. Pourquoi? ... Pierre doit être incrédule de ce qui se passe avec les gens ici quand il vient de tout donner ... si vous me demandez, c'est irrespectueux et insultant.
Je vais maintenant parcourir ces deux pages et je vais supprimer tout ce qui n'est pas lié à ce que Pierre vient de partager. Il y a eu plus que suffisamment de discussions sur toutes sortes de possibilités et assez c'est assez.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: dhodge on April 19, 2018, 10:07:55 PM
Hi All,
I have been watching this with great interest but a few basic things don’t make sense to me, there is probably a simple answer but I need to ask the questions.
1. If there is a 4 ohm resistor in series with the transformer which then charges the supercapacitors assuming 24V DC after the rectifier should give 6A on the DC, which would be approx 1.5A on the 100V line.
If there is 2.5A in the primary then I would assume that there is 10A in the secondary of the transformer and this then does not make sense with a 4 ohm resistor.
I am sure there is a reason for this, but it is bugging me.

I am working on assembling the parts and have come to the conclusion that if each coil is driven by an H Bridge then it is possible to cover all options of coil connections using the H Bridges, if the coils are connected in series then you would get different currents in them depending on how they are switched as you would end up with coils in series which would effectively alter the resistance and therefor the current.
Connecting H Bridges in place of the relays will cause issues due to the freewheel diodes.

Would the recovery system work much better if high frequencies were used.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 19, 2018, 10:30:00 PM
Hi All,
I have been watching this with great interest but a few basic things don’t make sense to me, there is probably a simple answer but I need to ask the questions.
1. If there is a 4 ohm resistor in series with the transformer which then charges the supercapacitors assuming 24V DC after the rectifier should give 6A on the DC, which would be approx 1.5A on the 100V line.
If there is 2.5A in the primary then I would assume that there is 10A in the secondary of the transformer and this then does not make sense with a 4 ohm resistor.
I am sure there is a reason for this, but it is bugging me.

I am working on assembling the parts and have come to the conclusion that if each coil is driven by an H Bridge then it is possible to cover all options of coil connections using the H Bridges, if the coils are connected in series then you would get different currents in them depending on how they are switched as you would end up with coils in series which would effectively alter the resistance and therefor the current.
Connecting H Bridges in place of the relays will cause issues due to the freewheel diodes.

Would the recovery system work much better if high frequencies were used.

Welcome dhodge,
I just approved your first post. However, this topic is more for the builders. Probably what you're asking about has been covered in the first topic which is still viewable to the public. Please search there for possible answers to your questions: http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/#.Wtj8ftYpDM0 (http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/#.Wtj8ftYpDM0)
Once you're convinced and you decide you want to build a test device then please post a video of your progress and feel free to participate here.
I'm sure you understand we cannot stop our research every time someone asks questions that have probably been covered.
Kind regards
Luc

Fr. 
Bienvenue dhodge,
Je viens d'approuver votre premier post. Cependant, ce sujet est plus pour les constructeurs. Probablement ce que vous demandez a été couvert dans le premier sujet qui est encore visible au public. S'il vous plaît chercher là pour des réponses à vos questions: http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/#.Wtj8ftYpDM0 (http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/#.Wtj8ftYpDM0)
Une fois que vous êtes convaincu et que vous décidez que vous voulez construire un appareil de test alors s'il vous plaît poster une vidéo de vos progrès et n'hésitez pas à participer ici.
Je suis sûr que vous comprenez que nous ne pouvons pas arrêter notre recherche chaque fois que quelqu'un pose des questions qui ont probablement été couvertes.
Sincères amitiés
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 20, 2018, 12:22:38 AM

So that would mean north south sine like wave in the rotor followed every 180 degrees by a square wave when you flip the poles then followed by a sine wave?

L192


Nope, Each half the code is changing polarity in succession. 5 poles = 60 degrees or one half the code cycle, while Pierre's is 6 poles.
E.g.
HBridge 1-5 is North, next
HBridge 6-10 become South, then FULL off position to collect, this is the double off position, and is seen on Pierre's scope shot.  This is the inductive kickback from the coils and load.
The other two 120 degrees are doing this at the same time.
You always maintain an opposite field at 180 degrees.  You have to have this for an AC output!


The code is running in a repeat loop at 120 degrees with a small rest period before repeating back to the start.
Every 60 degrees the polarity is switching, again this is each half of the code. 
The code is working only at 120 degrees repeating back to 0 degrees.


GotoLuc, is only doing one half of the correct switching, He is not getting a strong polarity of NS across the load!  Swing the last half of the code...and I believe we have something special.  A much stronger potential across the load.


What does a magnet do to the current flow when it shifts from N to S?  Without current flow moving back and forth, you have a very weak AC generator output, right?  Easy questions, just proving a point. :)


Jerdee 



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 20, 2018, 12:51:16 AM
Quote
Hi Ole,

your animation doesn't run. You may have to zip it and post it.

Regards

L192
Hi L192,

I attach it again. But this time it is a video file (.mp4). I hope this will work as it looks like only the first frame of the animated gif went through. The .mp4 file size is only a fraction of the animated gif file size. Put on repeat mode in the video viewer to see it loop like the original gif-file.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 20, 2018, 02:35:49 AM

Nope, Each half the code is changing polarity in succession. 5 poles = 60 degrees or one half the code cycle, while Pierre's is 6 poles.
E.g.
HBridge 1-5 is North, next
HBridge 6-10 become South, then FULL off position to collect, this is the double off position, and is seen on Pierre's scope shot.  This is the inductive kickback from the coils and load.
The other two 120 degrees are doing this at the same time.
You always maintain an opposite field at 180 degrees.  You have to have this for an AC output!


The code is running in a repeat loop at 120 degrees with a small rest period before repeating back to the start.
Every 60 degrees the polarity is switching, again this is each half of the code. 
The code is working only at 120 degrees repeating back to 0 degrees.


GotoLuc, is only doing one half of the correct switching, He is not getting a strong polarity of NS across the load!  Swing the last half of the code...and I believe we have something special.  A much stronger potential across the load.


What does a magnet do to the current flow when it shifts from N to S?  Without current flow moving back and forth, you have a very weak AC generator output, right?  Easy questions, just proving a point. :)


Jerdee 





Doesn't that make a discontinuity in the waveform?

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 20, 2018, 05:26:15 AM
Since then, there's 2 pages added of discussions which are not related to what Pierre has just shared. Why?... Pierre must be in disbelief of what's going on with people here when he just gave it all away.... if you ask me, that's disrespectful and insulting.
I'm going to go through those 2 pages now and will delete anything that's not related to what Pierre has just shared. There's been more than enough discussion of all kinds of possibilities and enough is enough.
I think that was too harsh approach with deleting posts which also had useful information in regards to why you have almost no current on output coil,etc. Please move them to general discussion thread (which now is locked) instead next time...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 20, 2018, 07:42:14 AM
Hi Ole
Thanks for that mp4 animation. This has had made more sense to me how the fields rotate than 37 pages of written explanation.
My question to everyone here (including Pierre)
Is this how it is done?????  Like is shown in Ole's animation?
I would think the field also flipping polarities every other "segment" would create more power, and not just moving....but I don't know as is usual.

Luc
I agree with T 1000 that is way to harsh of response. Nobody is asking or making you stop research with weird comments or tangential ideas they may post about the DZ generator.
I think Pierre would be more than happy reading any offshoot ideas or related designs people will come up with, fed by their confusion and wonder in how his DZ generator works.
This is human progress in understanding stuff finally and human progress in creativity too, using another idea to create another idea....
Seems to me nobody understand fully the DZ generator and all those WHYS? attached to full understanding - not even Pierre, as he has mentioned too that he does not know exactly why it works so well, so I think you should let the ideas and comments flow how they will,
 it is easy to skip over stuff you think is dumb or insulting....And let Pierre decide if he is insulted by non-understanding or offshoot ideas of his DZ generator.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 20, 2018, 09:33:53 AM
The answer why almost no current in pickup coils is in the how winding are made in replication attempt. I will repeat myself one more time but each coil is cancelling EMF of previous coil and are not how Pierre did explain in his videos. Back to the basics of three phase motor. Simple as that.


P.S. deletion of my posts which are not trolling here shows disrespect towards forum participants...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 20, 2018, 09:34:19 AM
Hi L192,

I attach it again. But this time it is a video file (.mp4). I hope this will work as it looks like only the first frame of the animated gif went through. The .mp4 file size is only a fraction of the animated gif file size. Put on repeat mode in the video viewer to see it loop like the original gif-file.

Regards
Ole

Hi Ole
Thanks for the gif file. It represents exactly what sketch is doing. My personal opinion is that two moving poles covering the whole circumference instead of six, might be better because there are more steps per pole which is what we should want here.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 20, 2018, 11:04:25 AM
A complement pic to Oles animation.

AND I agree to open the closed thread so more "wild" ideas can come thru without disturbing "the builders".
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 20, 2018, 11:13:19 AM
Hi L192,

I attach it again. But this time it is a video file (.mp4). I hope this will work as it looks like only the first frame of the animated gif went through. The .mp4 file size is only a fraction of the animated gif file size. Put on repeat mode in the video viewer to see it loop like the original gif-file.

Regards
Ole

Hello Ole,

good animation. This is the theoretical rotation of magnetic fields as I thought them too. But since the last indications that Pierre has communicated to us, I am not so sure that this is the case. Even if the reels actually seem to be ordered to move the fields such as in the animation, I think we have to think about how he arranged the reels. Notice: the last 6 reels are placed on the top layer; when these six coils are powered simultaneously, I think this produces a field that covers 11 stator grooves, not 6 grooves. I indicate it on the two images below. If this is the case, then magnetic fields are much more unbalanced than the theoretical fields. What do you think ?

FR
Bonjour Ole,

bonne animation. Ceci est la rotation théorique des champs magnétiques tels que je les pensais moi aussi. Mais depuis les dernières indications que Pierre nous a communiquées, je ne suis pas aussi certain que cela se passe ainsi. Même si les bobines semblent effectivement être commandées pour déplacer les champs tels que dans l'animation, je pense qu'il faut réfléchir à la façon dont il a agencé les bobines. Remarquez : les 6 dernières bobines sont placées sur la couche supérieure ; lorsque ces six bobines sont alimentées simultanément, je pense que cela produit un champ qui couvre 11 rainures du stator, et non 6 rainures. Je l'indique sur les deux images ci-dessous. Si tel est le cas, alors on a des champs magnétiques beaucoup plus déséquilibrés qu'avec les champs théoriques. Qu'en pensez-vous ?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 20, 2018, 11:48:21 AM
Please note about 5 coils in "11 slot" spot winding wire direction is CCW on top of the rest of coils wire direction which are CW. In that spot the EMF cancellation is in full effect.
Then compare to Luc and L192 replications winding. You will see instant difference.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: citfta on April 20, 2018, 12:43:12 PM
Sorry MichelM, but your conclusion is incorrect.  The coils are producing a field that is 5 coils wide, not 11.  I have reattached your drawing.  If you look at the wires on the right side of the coil, they are coming towards you or maybe going away from you.  But the wires on the left side of the coils are going in the OPPOSITE direction.  That means that if the wires on the right are producing a north field then the wires on the left are producing a south field.  I have built motors  using that same principle where I had a north magnet over one set of wires and the south magnet over the other set of wires and it ran just fine.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 20, 2018, 01:50:40 PM
Sorry citfta, but your conclusion is incorrect.  The coils are producing a field that is probably  narrower than 5 coils wide. See my pic above.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 20, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
Sorry citfta, but your conclusion is incorrect.  The coils are producing a field that is probably  narrower than 5 coils wide. See my pic above.  :D :D :D
If all coils are same around stator as those 5 overlapping and the end of each coil ends on +5th position from begining then you have  very narrow space between North and South poles when making 2 poles with 1 coil spacing from each to the next. And this still makes N/S vector in the direction of the ring and not to towards center. This is not what you want in Pierre's replication...

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: MichelM on April 20, 2018, 02:33:58 PM
Sorry citfta, but your conclusion is incorrect.  The coils are producing a field that is probably  narrower than 5 coils wide. See my pic above.  :D :D :D

Hi seaad,

I share your opinion. If only these narrow fields act (the rest must still act), the current configuration of the winding of Luc does not have dominant magnetic fields, since its coils cover 6 grooves and are grouped in series of 5 coils. In his case, the 2 windings of all the grooves have fields in opposition. This is perhaps why his rotor is so weakly magnetized.
What I explained above and that I show on this image again, comes in addition and must be taken into consideration. In the configuration of Pierre, any series of 6 coils covers 11 grooves, it's a fact, but what I want to share is the observation that I made: such as Pierre wound his stator, the last 6 coils that he has placed not only cover 11 grooves, but they, and only these last 6 coils, cover the coils already in place in the grooves. This must necessarily change the magnetism of these 6 coils. And when, during the rotation of the fields, when these 6 coils are connected in series, their magnetic field must necessarily be different from the others, since in their 11 grooves, the same magnetic field is directed towards the center of the stator. This concerns about 1/3 of the circumference and not 1/6.

FR
Salut seaad,

je partage votre avis. Si seuls ces champs étroits agissent (le reste doit quand même agir), la configuration actuelle du bobinage de Luc ne possède pas de champs magnétiques dominants, puisque ses bobines couvrent 6 rainures et sont regroupées en séries de 5 bobines. Dans son cas, les 2 bobinages de toutes les rainures présentent des champs en opposition. C'est peut-être pour cela que sont rotor est si faiblement magnétisé.
Ce que j'ai expliqué ci-dessus et que je montre sur cette image à nouveau, vient en complément et doit être pris en considération. Dans la configuration de Pierre, n'importe quelle série de 6 bobines couvre 11 rainures, c'est un fait, mais ce que je souhaite partager, c'est la constatation que j'ai faite : tel que Pierre a bobiné son stator, les 6 dernières bobines qu'il a placées, non seulement couvrent 11 rainures, mais elles, et uniquement ces 6 dernières bobines, recouvrent les bobines déjà en place dans les rainures. Cela doit forcément modifier la magnétisme de ces 6 bobines. Et lorsqu'au cours de la rotation des champs, lorsque ces 6 bobines se trouvent connectées en série, leur champ magnétique doit forcément être différent des autres, puisque dans leurs 11 rainures, le même champ magnétique est dirigé vers le centre du stator. Cela concerne environ 1/3 de la circonférence et non 1/6.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 20, 2018, 03:32:37 PM
Hi seaad,

I share your opinion. If only these narrow fields act (the rest must still act), the current configuration of the winding of Luc does not have dominant magnetic fields, since its coils cover 6 grooves and are grouped in series of 5 coils. In his case, the 2 windings of all the grooves have fields in opposition. This is perhaps why his rotor is so weakly magnetized.
What I explained above and that I show on this image again, comes in addition and must be taken into consideration. In the configuration of Pierre, any series of 6 coils covers 11 grooves, it's a fact, but what I want to share is the observation that I made: such as Pierre wound his stator, the last 6 coils that he has placed not only cover 11 grooves, but they, and only these last 6 coils, cover the coils already in place in the grooves. This must necessarily change the magnetism of these 6 coils. And when, during the rotation of the fields, when these 6 coils are connected in series, their magnetic field must necessarily be different from the others, since in their 11 grooves, the same magnetic field is directed towards the center of the stator. This concerns about 1/3 of the circumference and not 1/6.

FR
Salut seaad,

je partage votre avis. Si seuls ces champs étroits agissent (le reste doit quand même agir), la configuration actuelle du bobinage de Luc ne possède pas de champs magnétiques dominants, puisque ses bobines couvrent 6 rainures et sont regroupées en séries de 5 bobines. Dans son cas, les 2 bobinages de toutes les rainures présentent des champs en opposition. C'est peut-être pour cela que sont rotor est si faiblement magnétisé.
Ce que j'ai expliqué ci-dessus et que je montre sur cette image à nouveau, vient en complément et doit être pris en considération. Dans la configuration de Pierre, n'importe quelle série de 6 bobines couvre 11 rainures, c'est un fait, mais ce que je souhaite partager, c'est la constatation que j'ai faite : tel que Pierre a bobiné son stator, les 6 dernières bobines qu'il a placées, non seulement couvrent 11 rainures, mais elles, et uniquement ces 6 dernières bobines, recouvrent les bobines déjà en place dans les rainures. Cela doit forcément modifier la magnétisme de ces 6 bobines. Et lorsqu'au cours de la rotation des champs, lorsque ces 6 bobines se trouvent connectées en série, leur champ magnétique doit forcément être différent des autres, puisque dans leurs 11 rainures, le même champ magnétique est dirigé vers le centre du stator. Cela concerne environ 1/3 de la circonférence et non 1/6.

As Pierre explained, he hand wound the coils thats why they appear as they do. All of the coils polarities are the same in the series connection. Only the current direction is changing the poles North or South.

Regards L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 20, 2018, 05:21:24 PM
As Pierre explained, he hand wound the coils thats why they appear as they do. All of the coils polarities are the same in the series connection. Only the current direction is changing the poles North or South.

Regards L192

Pierre explained it! listener192 confirms
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: shylo on April 20, 2018, 10:04:46 PM
@ T1000,
I think all of Pierre's coils are wound CW, see mine they are all CW but look a little messed up where I ended.
I'm putting my rotating field on the inside and just using stock windings for the generating coils.
artv
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 20, 2018, 10:43:11 PM
Doesn't that make a discontinuity in the waveform?

Regards

L192

I apologize, you are correct!  I stand corrected.

We will have to do twice the amount of control on H-Bridges.
Each line of switching in the code is HIGH BUT, 1 pin is for three positive polarity, and another pin HIGH for three negative polarities.  Just need to make sure we can trigger three H-bridges from one high pin and use extra pins to switch polarity on the H-bridges.

Please see attached PDF to help the understanding.

All thirty H-bridges are firing for each half of the code.  Twice per code loop, each in opposite polarity.
By doing this, you have three North fields in parallel and three South's in parallel with the DC source at any one point in time.
BTW...this lines up with Ole's animation and Pierre's original code.

Hope this helps, and apologize for this confusion.  Please let me know if this looks incorrect. 

Jerdee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 20, 2018, 11:28:19 PM
I apologize, you are correct!  I stand corrected.

We will have to do twice the amount of control on H-Bridges.
Each line of switching in the code is HIGH BUT, 1 pin is for three positive polarity, and another pin HIGH for three negative polarities.  Just need to make sure we can trigger three H-bridges from one high pin and use extra pins to switch polarity on the H-bridges.

Please see attached PDF to help the understanding.

All thirty H-bridges are firing for each half of the code.  Twice per code loop, each in opposite polarity.
By doing this, you have three North fields in parallel and three South's in parallel with the DC source at any one point in time.
BTW...this lines up with Ole's animation and Pierre's original code.

Hope this helps, and apologize for this confusion.  Please let me know if this looks incorrect. 

Jerdee

Hi Jerdee,

Yes I understand what you are proposing however, as we have multiple "all coils off" periods, what happen to the overlap to sustain the flux? Pierre made a point of explaining the use of the overlap.
I understand that the Bridge diodes will recover coil energy.

In Pierre's 36 slot stator, how do the positive side connected diodes shown on his drawing, recover the coil energy, if there is no negative connection during the off period?

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 20, 2018, 11:39:51 PM
Hi Jerdee,

Yes I understand what you are proposing however, as we have multiple "all coils off" periods, what happen to the overlap to sustain the flux? Pierre made a point of explaining the use of the overlap.
I understand that the Bridge diodes will recover coil energy.

In Pierre's 36 slot stator, how do the positive side connected diodes shown on his drawing, recover the coil energy, if there is no negative connection during the off period?

Regards

L192


Look at the PDF again, BOTH the H-bridge direction and HIGH are held in overlap.  :) 


The spin codes holds the pin high until told not too, which is the "x" in the PDF line of code.  Hopefully this helps.


JerDee.



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 21, 2018, 12:12:17 AM

Look at the PDF again, BOTH the H-bridge direction and HIGH are held in overlap.  :) 


The spin codes holds the pin high until told not too, which is the "x" in the PDF line of code.  Hopefully this helps.


JerDee.

OK, got it thanks.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 21, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
This is what I have so far for a loop in code in a 30 pole configuration with H-Bridges at each pole.

__________________________________________

  repeat
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 1,11,21 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 6,16,26 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 1,11,21,6,16,26 ON and hold)
    Delay Value   
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 2,12,22 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 7,17,27 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 2,12,22,7,17,27 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 1,11,21,6,16,26 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 3,13,23 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 7,17,27 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 3,13,23,7,17,27 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(turn  H-Bridges 2,12,22 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 4,14,24 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 8,18,28 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 4,14,24,8,18,28 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 3,13,23 off)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 5,15,25 to be positive)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 10,20,30 to be negative)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 5,15,25,10,20,30 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 4,14,24 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 1,11,21 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 6,16,26 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 1,11,21,6,16,26 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 5,15,25 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 2,12,22 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 7,17,27 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 2,12,22,7,17,27 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 6,16,26 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 3,13,23 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 8,18,28 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 3,13,23,8,18,28 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 7,17,27 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 4,14,24 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 9,19,29 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 4,14,24,9,19,29 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 8,18,28 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 5,15,25 to be negative)
    pin.high(Set Direction for H-Bridges 10,20,30 to be positive)
    pin.high(turn H-Bridges 5,15,25,10,20,30 ON and hold)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 9,19,29,4,14,24 OFF)
    Delay Value
    pin.low(Turn H-Bridges 10,20,30,5,15,25 OFF)
    Delay Value

__________________________________________


Hopefully this helps,
Jerdee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 21, 2018, 01:22:43 AM
Hi Jerdee,

Yes I understand what you are proposing however, as we have multiple "all coils off" periods, what happen to the overlap to sustain the flux? Pierre made a point of explaining the use of the overlap.
I understand that the Bridge diodes will recover coil energy.

In Pierre's 36 slot stator, how do the positive side connected diodes shown on his drawing, recover the coil energy, if there is no negative connection during the off period?

Regards

L192


There is never an 'all coils off' ....

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 21, 2018, 08:51:28 AM

There is never an 'all coils off' ....

According to Jerdee's chart, step 24 on the 36 slot scheme and step 20 on the 30 slot scheme are  all coils off.

So  my question still stands  regarding the 36 slot scheme using relays, how would you recover coil energy through high side diodes only, without any negative connection to allow current to flow?

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 21, 2018, 09:19:03 AM
According to Jerdee's chart, step 24 on the 36 slot scheme and step 20 on the 30 slot scheme are  all coils off.

So  my question still stands  regarding the 36 slot scheme using relays, how would you recover coil energy through high side diodes only, without any negative connection to allow current to flow?

Regards

L192
There is always a connection to ground through one of the closed bottom relays. The BEMF voltage on a coil can be higher than the capacitor voltage, so current can still flow into capacitor.
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 21, 2018, 11:08:04 AM
According to Jerdee's chart, step 24 on the 36 slot scheme and step 20 on the 30 slot scheme are  all coils off.

So  my question still stands  regarding the 36 slot scheme using relays, how would you recover coil energy through high side diodes only, without any negative connection to allow current to flow?

Regards

L192
I looked back through the last few pages, I see no chart like that.


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/dlattach/attach/167603/image//  translated from


https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=25s


There is never a time when 0 LEDs are on except step 0.
The first step, 2, 26, 14 are on.
step 24 (25) wraps back to the start...
https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=38s


that LED pattern and what's in original videos matches.
There is either an LED that's out, or a transistor that is blown so the LED doesn't have much voltage backing? or there's wires crossing in front of it that cause a shadow, but there is never a time when all LEDs are off.


( from here http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520053/#msg520053  )



Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 21, 2018, 11:16:11 AM



So...


If there are 6 poles, energizing the south opposite any particular north... then the field is north through the center, but doesn't the magnetic path then prefer to go to the near sides, and only a vary small portion actually all the way across? 


Could this be run as a bedini with all coill north instead?


But from the rotation, and the code evalutaitons; what makes this different from any other 3-pair of n/s poles around ?  (Like morin Gerald's motor) and many other stepper motors in fans and stuff...


For experimentation I'd think you'd get a higher initial activity by activating only 1 pair at a time, and aligning the center pickup coil ... well I guess if it is cycling all the way around (which the iniital iron filings demo didn't really show to me) doesn't really matter..


But then there is a difference in the voltage from luc's setup to the original demonstration


also having the coils in series divides their current by 2 (double the resistance, double the inductance) rather than activating them in parallel...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 21, 2018, 11:40:14 AM
I made a time gap (all transistors Off ) in my SIMulation with recovery diodes.  The amperage is recovered for a short while. See pic.

Quote;
"....you managed to rotate the magnetic field....
....but there is something crucial that is missing which I see none of you have thought of yet since you are too concentrated on a replication....

....I can see that no one has ever ask the real question
of how to make current and what is happening by breaking down the cycle of a generator.


 If you really understand this then you will be able...."
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 21, 2018, 11:40:33 AM
There is always a connection to ground through one of the closed bottom relays. The BEMF voltage on a coil can be higher than the capacitor voltage, so current can still flow into capacitor.
PmgR

Yes, I just simulated that using relays (one section) and I got surprising recovery results, much better than semiconductor half bridges.

But that's only Falstad, (attached) really needs someone to confirm with Pspice.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 21, 2018, 02:47:38 PM
I looked back through the last few pages, I see no chart like that.


http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/dlattach/attach/167603/image// (http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/dlattach/attach/167603/image//)  translated from


https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=25s (https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=25s)


There is never a time when 0 LEDs are on except step 0.
The first step, 2, 26, 14 are on.
step 24 (25) wraps back to the start...
https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=38s (https://youtu.be/vii6o20_Vv8?t=38s)


that LED pattern and what's in original videos matches.
There is either an LED that's out, or a transistor that is blown so the LED doesn't have much voltage backing? or there's wires crossing in front of it that cause a shadow, but there is never a time when all LEDs are off.


( from here http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520053/#msg520053 (http://overunity.com/17653/pierres-170w-in-1600w-out-looped-very-impressive-build-continued-moderated/msg520053/#msg520053)  )





Both you and mcharbonnl are NOT referencing the original code that was sent from Pierre.  mcharbonnl’s vid shows the correct order of LED’s blinking from Pierre’s videos, however, when you take into account the audio from the video at 10% speed, you hear the double one and double off in the code.  You have to listen to the audio as well, not just look at the lights in the video! Go back to my earlier forum post and listen to the MP3 I attached.  Also, download the video, slow it down to 10%  and listen/look at the original code and compare.  You’ll see.

When you review my PDF, you'll see that each "x" position is the recovery diodes as well!  72 recovery diodes for 36 poles, and 60 recovery diodes for 30 poles.  Everything lines up here.  The audio, video, the code, number of relays, number of recovery diodes.  The only difference is 36 pole vs. 30 poles.  Hope this helps.

Jerdee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 21, 2018, 05:09:29 PM
This one with the original coding: 2 HIGH and 2 LOW steps

https://youtu.be/GigDdTppB10 (https://youtu.be/GigDdTppB10)

x = 10 (pot to min)
x =200 (pot to max)

Not easy to see the all off step when x=10
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 21, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
Hi Webby1,

Quote
Not only are metal contacts bi-directional they also allow for simultaneous events to pass through them, and they can offer almost no resistance.
Power MOSFETs are also bidirectional when in conduction mode. Because of the parasitic diode formed by the np semiconductor it is always conducting in the forward direction of the parasitic diode. This is in the opposite direction of the normal biased MOSFET. For a blocking bidirectional MOSFET switch use two MOSFETs with their sources connected together as well as their gates connected together. The drains are then the two poles of the switch. The saturation voltage is less than the forward conduction voltage drop of the intrinsic body diode.

Scroll down to just blow the center here for a schematic:
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/controlling-an-ac-load-with-a-mosfet.518/ (https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/controlling-an-ac-load-with-a-mosfet.518/)

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 21, 2018, 07:33:10 PM
Can somebody solve this riddle?

Pierre; "the resistor is really hot"

1]  Check in first film at 2min. 40sec. Start the charging of the supercaps (4.6 Volt). About 0.5 Ampere from the 'wall' goes to the transformer.

2]  Check in film at 3min. 40sec. The supercaps 25.1Volt with 0 to 0.1 Amp in to the transformer.

3]  Check in film at 5min. 06sec. Arduino have just Start the program, The supercaps <25Volt while 1.5--2 Amps is Now feeding the transformer!!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 21, 2018, 09:24:41 PM
Not only are metal contacts bi-directional they also allow for simultaneous events to pass through them, and they can offer almost no resistance.

If you use  a  MOSFET as the low side switch, and set the RDS the same as the relay contact resistance (which you can do in the latest version of Falstad),
you get a quiet a different recovery current waveform, through the two diodes on the end of the switched series of coils.

Not sure if the simulator assumes a body diode in the MOSFET.

Regards
L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 21, 2018, 09:41:01 PM



Thanks Cheors,


I've attached the loading sequence video to review for you as well. Play in loop.   This is what I'm seeing and hearing before his loop sequence begins with the two high steps which is the beginning of his loop code.



pin.high(20,21) '' RELAY (39, 52) AND (41 AND 54)
short delay
pin.high(01)      '' RELAY 01 AND 14 ON
short delay
pin.high(14)      '' RELAY 25 AND 38 ON
long delay
pin.low(14)       '' RELAY 25 AND 38 OFF
long delay
pin.high(14)      '' RELAY 25 AND 38 ON
long delay
pin.low(14)       '' RELAY 25 AND 38 OFF
regular delay


Then....we get the loop sequence with the double high. 
_____________________________________________________ 


I believe he is priming the coils, this has to be important. Pin 14 is turned on/off twice while Pins 1,20, and 21 are held.  WHY TWICE?

LOOK AT THE PATTERN.

52-39 =13
14-01 =13
54-41 =13
38-25 =13

We can confirm that each PIN runs two switches 13 apart. 

Jerdee

The naming convention appears to  take the clockwise slot...
junction 36-1 =1
junction 6-7   =7
junction 12-13 =13

Same polarities spaced 13 apart, ties up with the original scheme shown.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 21, 2018, 10:26:55 PM

Okay so there is a skip then between the first and last coils... (in original code)




This is what I thought at first glance... and that the single north went from (right to left) when the cycle restarted...

so - wouldn't 6 poles have short fields?  except maybe where the pickup coil core is?




(1 cycle, 1 coil (and it's mating coil) )



Edit : (Added 'Overlap Tangle" )
And I think maybe, the pitch on 36 should be 5, or on 30, should be 4, so that you don't overlap driving coils... otherwise you get a small tangle that doesn't do anything except add impedance....


If you had a 4 skip, then 2 coils on is 5, and will never directly overlap a south that'[size=78%]s also on... (not illustrated)[/size]
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 21, 2018, 11:48:04 PM
Hi seaad,

5A through the resistor makes it dissipate (5A)2 x 4ohm = 100W as heat with 4ohm x 5A = 20V across it. 8A through the resistor dissipates (8A)2 x 4ohm = 256W as heat with 8A x 4ohm = 20V across it.

Assuming that the first column of numbers is the voltage across the left capacitor and the second column is the voltage across the right capacitor making the third column in the box the voltage across the resistor. The last column then can't be the current through the resistor! Are you sure that this isn't the current  on the other side of one of the capacitors?

Next assumption is that the capacitors are super capacitors. Super capacitors mustn't be charged to above their breakdown voltage (as all other capacitors). Thus super capacitors in series have a charge balancing circuit to protect each cell in them and this probably also protects for over voltage of the total series of cells. If the voltages and currents are without any load the input power is dissipated in the resistor but also in the protection circuit of the capacitors. If a load is connected it also becomes a source in the second row where the current changes direction to a negative value. Here the energy comes from the right hand side. As the bridge rectifier prevents the current from going into the transformer the current must be dissipated in the left hand side capacitor as well as in the right hand side.

If the voltages in the third column are the voltage across the resistor the current through the resistor isn't as shown. The current (I) is given as I = U / 4ohm where U is the voltage. The fourth column then becomes:
@ 5V:  1.25A
@ -7V: -1.75A

@ 12V: 3A
@ 0V:   0A

@ 25V: 6.25A
@ 13V: 3.25A

 The power dissipation P in the resistor is P = U2 / 4ohm where U is the voltage across the resistor. The power dissipation with the above values becomes:
@ 5V:  6.25W
@ -7V: 12.3W

@ 12V: 36W
@ 0V:   0W

@ 25V: 156W
@ 13V: 42.3W

Perhaps the current is measured before or after the capacitors and thus also includes the current into the protection network of the capacitors. Just make sure to check how much power the protection network can dissipate before activating it.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 22, 2018, 01:55:54 AM
Hi Ole, I have revised my pic in my previous post. I hope this below is less baffling.

We know that the transformer "takes" 2 Amp when Pierres apparatus is running (from the wall) and we know that the voltage across the supercaps  (feeding his unit directly??)  is about 20 Volt.

 The transformer has to deliver 8 Amps with its voltage ratio if it is a normal transformer with normal losses.

The 4 Ohm series resistor consumes 32 Volt at 8A.

The transformer after the diode bridge and filter capacitor (left) delivers some 25 to 36 Volts which enables ONLY a deliverance of 5 to 12 Volt accross the series resistor.
 Which consumes as mentioned above = 32Volt !!
???
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 22, 2018, 02:04:00 AM
Can somebody solve this riddle?

Pierre; "the resistor is really hot"

1]  Check in first film at 2min. 40sec. Start the charging of the supercaps (4.6 Volt). About 0.5 Ampere from the 'wall' goes to the transformer.

2]  Check in film at 3min. 40sec. The supercaps 25.1Volt with 0 to 0.1 Amp in to the transformer.

3]  Check in film at 5min. 06sec. Arduino have just Start the program, The supercaps <25Volt while 1.5--2 Amps is Now feeding the transformer!!
Hi seaad,


1) This is indeed a bit strange, if the supercaps are low in voltage, I would expect a large inrush current, but maybe the supercap boards have some current limiting.


2) This would mean this 25.1V is the max voltage that the transformer can put out after rectification and the caps are charged up to that so current draw goes to zero. This would be the peak voltage of the secondary.


3) I believe Pierre states in his first video that the transformer is home made. Mains is 170Vpp, secondary is 25Vpp, so winding ratio is 6.8, or 1.5A at primary becomes 10A at secondary which would cause 40V voltage drop over resistor... so indeed this doesn't make any sense... ??? Only thing I can think of is that the primary current meter is not reading correctly.


PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 22, 2018, 02:18:33 AM
Hi seaad,
1) This is indeed a bit strange, if the supercaps are low in voltage, I would expect a large inrush current, but maybe the supercap boards have some current limiting.

2) This would mean this 25.1V is the max voltage that the transformer can put out after rectification and the caps are charged up to that so current draw goes to zero. This would be the peak voltage of the secondary.

3) I believe Pierre states in his first video that the transformer is home made. Mains is 170Vpp, secondary is 25Vpp, so winding ratio is 6.8, or 1.5A at primary becomes 10A at secondary which would cause 40V voltage drop over resistor... so indeed this doesn't make any sense... ??? Only thing I can think of is that the primary current meter is not reading correctly.
PmgR

From first film: 26 Volt only not p-p? , 30 A 

That current limiting seems to not work when arduino up and running!   2Amps  in to the transformer then.

Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: onielsen on April 22, 2018, 02:48:30 AM
Hi seaad,

The numbers on the figure doesn't add up.

Quote
3]  Check in film at 5min. 06sec. Arduino have just Start the program, The supercaps <25Volt while 1.5--2 Amps is Now feeding the transformer!!
I agree with PmgR that the meters aren't correct calibrated for the waveform. The output of the device isn't a pure sine wave and it is of low frequency. Cheap meters usually measure mean value and thus are calibrated to show the correct RMS value for a sine wave. As the form factor of the wave isn't the same as that for a sine wave such meters will show the wrong value. Even RMS meters and true RMS meters may not be correct calibrated. See the following articles about the problem: https://meettechniek.info/opinion/true-rms-or-a-true-lie.html (https://meettechniek.info/opinion/true-rms-or-a-true-lie.html) and https://meettechniek.info/multimeter-avo/measurement-deviation.html (https://meettechniek.info/multimeter-avo/measurement-deviation.html).

An oscilloscope would be preferable for the measurements or the current could be measured through the resistor which is put between the two filter capacitors. At this point the waveform must be close to DC.

Regards
Ole
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: jerdee on April 22, 2018, 06:40:49 AM
The naming convention appears to  take the clockwise slot...
junction 36-1 =1
junction 6-7   =7
junction 12-13 =13

Same polarities spaced 13 apart, ties up with the original scheme shown.

L192


Funny that the image shows that he wants to solve the problem with 4 poles instead of 6.  In order for him to do this he would have to replace each coil to a 9 pole bridge instead of his 6.  Always look at the pattern.  For a 4 pole to work correctly, you would need to trigger 9 coils in series with a bridge gap of 9. Do you see his pattern?   This means we might have problems doing our setup with the same bridged poles as the 36 pole.  It should be 5 to match his same configuration.  [size=78%]I beginning to realize why the overlap in coil windings will be a problem.  I can see how his new configuration will work better!

I also believe we could do this method of pulsing on a toriod completely solid state. 

I was also able to place the priming sequence of coils to visualize the arrangement.  My original post had a wrong pin number, 14 should have been 13.  The reason for this PIN change is because all odd relays are on the outside and even relays are on the inside.  See image.  I still don't understand why he is priming the entire stator prior to sequence.  Maybe this image will help others.   

Jerdee
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 22, 2018, 08:07:28 AM
Rotate 6 coils = 6 poles

https://youtu.be/EtuZJFKu3uQ
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 22, 2018, 08:39:28 AM
Hi seaad,


1) This is indeed a bit strange, if the supercaps are low in voltage, I would expect a large inrush current, but maybe the supercap boards have some current limiting.


2) This would mean this 25.1V is the max voltage that the transformer can put out after rectification and the caps are charged up to that so current draw goes to zero. This would be the peak voltage of the secondary.


3) I believe Pierre states in his first video that the transformer is home made. Mains is 170Vpp, secondary is 25Vpp, so winding ratio is 6.8, or 1.5A at primary becomes 10A at secondary which would cause 40V voltage drop over resistor... so indeed this doesn't make any sense... ??? Only thing I can think of is that the primary current meter is not reading correctly.


PmgR


(Videos are gone from Pierre)


(You couldn't have > 6A ... E=IR (I=E/R) not I > E/R )


so 25V input across 4 Ohms (count 0 Ohms for capacitors?)  is max 6.25A


140V:25V = 1.1A : 6.25A.  that is input has to be at least 1.1A doesn't mean it couldn't be more...


suppose it's a lossy transformer? ...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 22, 2018, 09:04:03 AM
Hi seaad,

1) The numbers on the figure doesn't add up.

2) I agree with PmgR that the meters aren't correct calibrated for the waveform. The output of the device isn't a pure sine wave and it is of low frequency. Cheap meters usually measure mean value and thus are calibrated to show the correct RMS value for a sine wave. As the form factor of the wave isn't the same as that for a sine wave such meters will show the wrong value.

3)
An oscilloscope would be preferable for the measurements or the current could be measured through the resistor which is put between the two filter capacitors. At this point the waveform must be close to DC.

Regards
Ole

1)   The numbers on the figure doesn't add up. Correct. That was the purpouse of my post.   I. e.  An eye  opener.

2)   I agree with YOU and PmgR that the meters (maybe) aren't reliable. At this time in the film as I'm refferring to  Pierre is still using the 60Hz wall outlet with a good sine wave. Both when charging the super caps and running his unit.

3) Fully Agree.

@d3x0r Quote: (Videos are gone from Pierre)      Strange?
                           
                           (You couldn't have > 6A ...    Certainly.  Pierres transformer: 26V (30 A)  Peak value 35.7 Volt maximum rectified level.


Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 22, 2018, 10:05:35 AM

Funny that the image shows that he wants to solve the problem with 4 poles instead of 6.  In order for him to do this he would have to replace each coil to a 9 pole bridge instead of his 6.  Always look at the pattern.  For a 4 pole to work correctly, you would need to trigger 9 coils in series with a bridge gap of 9. Do you see his pattern?   This means we might have problems doing our setup with the same bridged poles as the 36 pole.  It should be 5 to match his same configuration.  [size=78%]I beginning to realize why the overlap in coil windings will be a problem.  I can see how his new configuration will work better!

I also believe we could do this method of pulsing on a toriod completely solid state. 

I was also able to place the priming sequence of coils to visualize the arrangement.  My original post had a wrong pin number, 14 should have been 13.  The reason for this PIN change is because all odd relays are on the outside and even relays are on the inside.  See image.  I still don't understand why he is priming the entire stator prior to sequence.  Maybe this image will help others.   

Jerdee


Yes, a larger stator with more slots, so you can reduce the polarity overlap would improve efficiency, still his scheme produces OU irrespective of its faults.

The priming issue is reminiscent of the permanent magnets in an alternator rotor, which are there to provide some output from the stator coils, which in turn energize the rotor with DC, starting the whole current generation process.

Regards


L192   
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 22, 2018, 12:31:12 PM
This was the FWBR used by Pierre.

Crydom EFG13C  125A continuous, 2500V

Somewhat overkill due to the 4ohm current limit resistor.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 22, 2018, 01:34:09 PM
Falstad Sim  (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?cct=$+1+0.000005+10.20027730826997+50+5+50%0Al+304+112+240+112+0+1+-0.49040412711800674%0Al+240+160+304+160+0+1+0.49040412711800674%0Aw+304+160+304+144+0%0Aw+304+112+304+144+0%0Aw+304+144+352+144+0%0Al+240+224+320+224+0+1+0.24520206355900298%0Al+320+224+400+224+0+1+0.24520206355900298%0Av+80+160+80+224+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0As+128+224+192+224+0+0+false%0As+128+144+192+144+0+0+false%0Aw+128+224+80+224+0%0Aw+128+144+128+224+0%0Aw+80+160+80+64+0%0Aw+80+64+496+64+0%0As+432+144+352+144+0+0+false%0As+480+224+480+176+0+0+false%0Aw+480+176+480+144+0%0Aw+432+144+480+144+0%0Aw+480+144+480+80+0%0Aw+480+80+496+64+0%0Ar+192+224+240+224+0+10%0Ar+192+144+240+112+0+10%0Ar+240+160+192+144+0+10%0Ar+400+224+448+224+0+10%0Aw+448+224+480+224+0%0Ao+1+64+0+4097+0.0000762939453125+0.8+0+2+1+3%0Ao+5+64+0+4097+0.0000762939453125+0.4+1+2+5+3%0A)


current through 2 coils in series (with simulated 10 ohm resistor) is 2x the current per coil  (4x total, since both get doubled)
It's also 4x the power disappated across each coil (8x total)


Magnetic field is L * I * coilParams; so for L being the same, being able to increase current(I) will increase the field.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on April 22, 2018, 03:52:08 PM
Hi seaad,


1) This is indeed a bit strange, if the supercaps are low in voltage, I would expect a large inrush current, but maybe the supercap boards have some current limiting.

Well, I see that the videos are once again removed so I can't refer to the first video when Pierre shows the charging of the supercaps from 4.64v to 10.4v over a ~32 second period.  It could be seen that the current drawn on the primary during this time was ~.5a rms if the meter used can be trusted.  From this one can compute the overall total impedance and resistance in the charging path including the 4 ohm resistor.  The primary to secondary leakage inductance, diode drops, and the pri and sec dcrs must be included in these calcs.  With best guesses on the transformer parameters, this should be capable of being simulated.

Quote
2) This would mean this 25.1V is the max voltage that the transformer can put out after rectification and the caps are charged up to that so current draw goes to zero. This would be the peak voltage of the secondary.

Yes this is correct!  This should give us the ability to arrive at the approximate open circuit turns ratio of the transformer assuming there will be some esr in the suppercaps.

Quote
3) I believe Pierre states in his first video that the transformer is home made. Mains is 170Vpp, secondary is 25Vpp, so winding ratio is 6.8, or 1.5A at primary becomes 10A at secondary which would cause 40V voltage drop over resistor... so indeed this doesn't make any sense... ??? Only thing I can think of is that the primary current meter is not reading correctly.

The transformer is not home made but is more than likely modified.  The transformer is made by Signal and is model HPI-27-1072.  The label could be seen in the first video.  This series is available thru Digi-Key in the US and sells for ~$525 each!  With the core laminations being tig welded, the core was not disassembled so any mods would only be able to be done to the secondary. 

The data sheet for this series from Signal does not include the inductance of the primaries nor the magnetization current of the primaries under no load however, the idle current shown by the meter used by Pierre toggles between 0.00 and 0.10 amps which would/should be the magnetization current.  Having designed many such power transformers for commercial and industrial use, this magnetization current is unusually low IMO.  In my LtSpice sims of this transformer, a single primary at 114v rms with 1 henry inductance has an idle current of ~0.30 amps rms.  So, Pierre must be using the two primaries in series to achieve the low idle or magnetization current. 

At this point in time, I've not been successful in simulating Pierre's power transformer circuitry supplying the supercaps under all the conditions such as open circuit charging of the SC's, output no-load idle voltage of ~25vdc, and loaded (stator running with no rotor) output voltage of ~20.5vdc with an input of 113v rms at 2.0a rms!

Regards,
Pm

Quote
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: konehead on April 22, 2018, 06:48:49 PM
Hi Ole and everyone
That all about circuits you put up about using mosfets to switch (or block specifically I think in that link)
There should also be a diode (very fast good amps good voltage) from the source to the drain....otherwise it only will switch "one mosfet at a time"
Look att this diagram for bidirectional mosfets

https://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 22, 2018, 07:18:21 PM
Well, I see that the videos are once again removed so I can't refer to the first video when Pierre shows the charging of the supercaps from 4.64v to 10.4v over a ~32 second period.  It could be seen that the current drawn on the primary during this time was ~.5a rms if the meter used can be trusted.  From this one can compute the overall total impedance and resistance in the charging path including the 4 ohm resistor.  The primary to secondary leakage inductance, diode drops, and the pri and sec dcrs must be included in these calcs.  With best guesses on the transformer parameters, this should be capable of being simulated.

Yes this is correct!  This should give us the ability to arrive at the approximate open circuit turns ratio of the transformer assuming there will be some esr in the suppercaps.

The transformer is not home made but is more than likely modified.  The transformer is made by Signal and is model HPI-27-1072.  The label could be seen in the first video.  This series is available thru Digi-Key in the US and sells for ~$525 each!  With the core laminations being tig welded, the core was not disassembled so any mods would only be able to be done to the secondary. 

The data sheet for this series from Signal does not include the inductance of the primaries nor the magnetization current of the primaries under no load however, the idle current shown by the meter used by Pierre toggles between 0.00 and 0.10 amps which would/should be the magnetization current.  Having designed many such power transformers for commercial and industrial use, this magnetization current is unusually low IMO.  In my LtSpice sims of this transformer, a single primary at 114v rms with 1 henry inductance has an idle current of ~0.30 amps rms.  So, Pierre must be using the two primaries in series to achieve the low idle or magnetization current. 

At this point in time, I've not been successful in simulating Pierre's power transformer circuitry supplying the supercaps under all the conditions such as open circuit charging of the SC's, output no-load idle voltage of ~25vdc, and loaded (stator running with no rotor) output voltage of ~20.5vdc with an input of 113v rms at 2.0a rms!

Regards,
Pm
Partzman, I see only two suitable ways to use this transformer in his setup (without cutting into the windings):

1. Use two primaries in series and use two secondaries in parallel: primary voltage 230V, secondary voltage 115V, so 2:1 turn ratio. Then input 115V on primary, that would give 55V rms on secondary with 24A rating.


2. Use two primaries and one secondary in series: input voltage would be 345V, output voltage 115V, so 3:1 turn ratio. Then input 115V on primary, that would give 38V on secondary, which is close to what Pierre states as "36V home made transformer".

Let's consider case 2. above: Having 1.5A on primary would then translate to 4.5A on secondary and the voltage drop over the resistor would be  18V drop, or about 20V left for the capacitor.
This looks like it is in the ball-park.

Would this configuration make sense for the magnetization current? What resistances and inductance values are you assuming for the windings?

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 22, 2018, 07:53:22 PM
Hi  pmgr, all

26 V, 30 A

Maybe someone can answer where to that thin red wire goes , starting from first filter cap?

AND this question:   Check in film at 5min. 06sec. Arduino have just Start the program, The supercaps  holds  just below 25Volt and decreasing its  voltage slowly down to about 20 V,  while (1.5) -- 2 Amps is Now feeding the transformer!! Why 2 Amps when the charging of the super caps only took 0.5 Amps??
If there is a built in current limiter for charging?

 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on April 22, 2018, 08:56:21 PM
Partzman, I see only two suitable ways to use this transformer in his setup (without cutting into the windings):

1. Use two primaries in series and use two secondaries in parallel: primary voltage 230V, secondary voltage 115V, so 2:1 turn ratio. Then input 115V on primary, that would give 55V rms on secondary with 24A rating.

With this turns ratio, the ideal OCV at the SC output would be ~76v dc assuming a relatively high esr of the SC's. 

Quote
2. Use two primaries and one secondary in series: input voltage would be 345V, output voltage 115V, so 3:1 turn ratio. Then input 115V on primary, that would give 38V on secondary, which is close to what Pierre states as "36V home made transformer".

With this configuration, the ideal OCV would be ~52vdc.  Both configs produce too high an OCV as compared to Pierre's tests.

Quote
Let's consider case 2. above: Having 1.5A on primary would then translate to 4.5A on secondary and the voltage drop over the resistor would be  18V drop, or about 20V left for the capacitor.
This looks like it is in the ball-park.

Would this configuration make sense for the magnetization current? What resistances and inductance values are you assuming for the windings?

To meet Pierre's apparent idle current of ~ .100A rms would require a primary inductance of ~3H which could be possible with 1 primary on the core size of the Signal transformer.  This would depend on the core permeability and turns of course.  In my simulation I used a 1H primary and 27mH on the secondary with 3 ohm and 1 ohm dcr respectively and a coupling K = .95.  The primary dcr is maybe too low and should probably be in the 5-10 ohm range but the outcome of the loaded tests were so far off that I didn't change that parameter.

My reason for analyzing the power transformer and SC output was to determine with reasonable accuracy the load presented to the SC pack by the running stator without the rotor in place.  IOW, if the electromagnetic fields in the stator windings are held relatively constant, this means the winding currents would be nearly constant and generally limited by the sum total of the stator winding's dcrs.  This is where my sim analysis really fails!  To reproduce Pierre's results with the stator load, the sim needs ~10-20 ohms to even get close to his dc output voltage and current levels but, the input current draw is too low at ~500ma!   IMO, Pierre's stator should represent a 0.5-1 ohm load if connected as he has revealed and if these values are used, the SC voltage drops far below the ~19.5v dc level.  Perhaps I'm missing something here so I'm certainly open for correction as this is a huge difference.

Regards,
Pm

Quote
PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 22, 2018, 08:58:15 PM
Hi  pmgr, all

26 V, 30 A

Maybe someone can answer where to that thin red wire goes , starting from first filter cap?

AND this question:   Check in film at 5min. 06sec. Arduino have just Start the program, The supercaps  holds  just below 25Volt and decreasing its  voltage slowly down to about 20 V,  while (1.5) -- 2 Amps is Now feeding the transformer!! Why 2 Amps when the charging of the super caps only took 0.5 Amps??
If there is a built in current limiter for charging?
Seaad, when did you download your video? Is this the very first video that Pierre uploaded or did you download it when he uploaded it a second time?

Unless my memory is failing me, I remember that the VERY FIRST video Pierre uploaded said 36V and it stated no amperage as far as I recollect (but again I might be wrong, I am getting old  :-\ ). I do recall that the font did not look the same yellow either as your image (see my image below with red font). Has anyone downloaded copies of each video after Pierre uploaded them the first time and the second time? Maybe they are different? The second version of the first video is 14:14min long total. How long is yours?

And regarding the small red wire, I believe that wire goes to the voltmeter for the supercaps? Maybe that explains everything! The measured voltage for the supercaps is not measured after the resistor but before the resistor (voltage of the small capacitor).


Correction: that small red wire does not appear to go to the voltmeter. It goes into the wire bundle that comes from the relays.


PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 22, 2018, 09:23:24 PM
pmgr

Q: ""when did you download your video? Is this the very first video that Pierre uploaded ""=  First vid 2018-02-28

The 2nd near identical but with more colorful labels and some cuts in mid of the film as I remember. I don't have that one.  /Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: citfta on April 22, 2018, 09:28:28 PM
It appears that most of you don't know anything about welding.  Pierre says in the video that it is a home-made transformer.  If you look at the welds on the laminations they certainly look like home-made welds.  They do not look like welds made by machine which is the way almost everything is welded now days.  I believe he took a stock transformer and cut the welds with a grinder and then took it apart and then with his own designed coils reassembled the transformer and rewelded the laminations.  They certainly look like hand welded spots.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 22, 2018, 09:41:01 PM
Don't the welding spots make shortcuts in the lamination with increased losses?   In my experimentation I always avoids "naked" ends (not primed) of the laminated sheets come together.  / Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on April 22, 2018, 10:23:35 PM
It appears that most of you don't know anything about welding.  Pierre says in the video that it is a home-made transformer.  If you look at the welds on the laminations they certainly look like home-made welds.  They do not look like welds made by machine which is the way almost everything is welded now days.  I believe he took a stock transformer and cut the welds with a grinder and then took it apart and then with his own designed coils reassembled the transformer and rewelded the laminations.  They certainly look like hand welded spots.

Yes you are correct!  I had not noticed this previously but I have done considerable welding and those welds are definitely crude.  Welding is done in cores that are not held by frames or bolts in order to keep lamination noise down in low frequency power transformers and yes, the welds do create larger eddy current losses in the laminations.

So, the question is, did he rewind the entire transformer or just the secondary?  My guess would be just the secondary.

Regards,
Pm
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 22, 2018, 11:48:15 PM
Diode connections.

72 diodes one diode each side of each coil, to accommodate the flow of current in either direction from an active high side or low side switch.

There are only 36 wires (approx) from the stator to the main wiring board, so how are these connections made if only the coil junctions are brought out on wires from the stator?

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 23, 2018, 12:08:46 AM
@  listener192
Page32 Reply #477, Page33 Reply #482

One connection  point:  coil    relay    2xdiodes
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 23, 2018, 12:36:32 AM
Hi All,

As I also bought Arduino Mega 2560 and now looking again through original Pierre's code and there is interesting moment about coils LOW state:

1)  digitalWrite(1,HIGH), digitalWrite(13,HIGH), digitalWrite(25,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
2)  digitalWrite(2,HIGH), digitalWrite(14,HIGH), digitalWrite(26,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
3)  digitalWrite(1,LOW),  digitalWrite(13,LOW),  digitalWrite(25,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
4)  digitalWrite(3,HIGH), digitalWrite(15,HIGH), digitalWrite(27,HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
5)  digitalWrite(2,LOW),  digitalWrite(14,LOW),  digitalWrite(26,LOW);     // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(x);              // wait for a second
6)  digitalWrite(4,HIGH), digitalWrite(16,HIGH), digitalWrite(28,HIGH); // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(x);              // wait for a second

When it is set to LOW from Arduino that mean the relay switch is also active and have coil connected to the negative terminal?
If that is the case 36 out of 72 relays are activated and connecting to the negative then as soon coil X activates. The coil X-1 have opposite direction when its state is LOW.
Which mean opposite magnetic field polarity previous to coil X. Which is resulting cancelation of magnetic polarity in pickup core. Then coil X+1 activates and we get more stronger magnetic field on positive and positive magnetic polarity and resulting more positive field.
Please correct me if that is not true.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 12:44:28 AM
Hi All,

As I also bought Arduino Mega 2560 and now looking again through original Pierre's code and there is interesting moment about coils LOW state:

When it is set to LOW from Arduino that mean the relay switch is also active and have coil connected to the negative terminal?
If that is the case 36 out of 72 relays are activated and connecting to the negative then as soon coil X activates. The coil X-1 have opposite direction when its state is LOW.
Which mean opposite magnetic field polarity previous to coil X. Which is resulting cancelation of magnetic polarity in pickup core. Then coil X+1 activates and we get more stronger magnetic field on positive and positive magnetic polarity and resulting more positive field.
Please correct me if that is not true.

Cheers!
The relays would be active when the LED is on and no other time.
2 relays are enabled for each single output; one driving the N side and the opposite S side.   


at '2' on (N). '18' will also be on (S); but when '18' is on 'N', it's paired with 2 'S'.


----
and just a minor note
 falstad sim  (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?cct=$+1+0.000005+6.450009306485578+45+5+50%0AT+400+160+416+224+0+4+1+2.4999999968234485+-2.4999999968234485+0.999%0As+336+224+272+224+0+0+false%0Aw+416+224+480+224+0%0Aw+416+160+480+160+0%0Av+272+224+272+160+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0Aw+272+160+400+160+0%0Aw+384+224+400+224+0%0Aw+384+224+480+160+0%0Aw+480+224+272+160+0%0Ar+336+224+384+224+0+1%0Aw+384+320+400+320+0%0Aw+272+256+400+256+0%0Av+272+320+272+256+0+0+40+5+0+0+0.5%0Aw+416+256+480+256+0%0Aw+416+320+480+320+0%0As+336+320+272+320+0+0+false%0AT+400+256+416+320+0+4+1+4.9701478885241395+-4.970147888524139+0.999%0Aw+384+320+384+352+0%0Aw+384+352+480+320+0%0Aw+480+256+512+320+0%0Aw+512+320+400+400+0%0Ar+400+400+336+400+0+1%0Aw+336+320+336+400+0%0Ao+21+64+0+4099+5+6.4+0+2+21+3%0Ao+9+64+0+4099+5+6.4+1+2+9+3%0A) was playing with having 2 coils coupled as a transformer, and wiring it in series/parallel.  It achieves maximum current in 1/6 the time in parallel. 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: dole on April 23, 2018, 02:35:54 AM
Hi,
Firstly I would kindly appreciate if someone has time to analyze
and secondly if had any luck to copy deleted YouTube video:

1.Can anyone help determinate polarity of the “spinning” permanent magnets from published video
   (170W in -1600W out) in slow motion, referring to timeline from 02:25 - 02:39 and 05:31 - 05:51?


2. Does anybody can help providing download link of the previously published video,
    where is “how to” assembly, step by step,  two small “DC” motors, (one with extra opposing magnets),
    100% free energy “building tutorial”, running each other by rubber band, pulleys and capacitor.

Download Link : ??

(That it may have some benefits later)

Thanks,

d.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 23, 2018, 03:16:37 AM
Dole and everyone,

There is a reason Pierre has removed his videos from the public. Please respect his wishes as they are HIS videos.
If you made a copy for your own research that is fine. However, you have no right to repost them to the general public without his permission.
If you lost your chance to download them (for your personal use) the second time Pierre made them available then it's your tough luck.

Please respect Pierre's wishes and in time he may share more. Disrespect him and you'll get nothing more. That I can promise you.

Regards
Luc

Fr. Dole et tout le monde,
Il y a une raison pour laquelle Pierre a retiré ses vidéos du public. S'il vous plaît respecter ses souhaits car ce sont ses vidéos.
Si vous avez fait une copie pour votre propre recherche, c'est bien. Cependant, vous n'avez pas le droit de les rediffuser au grand public sans sa permission.
Si vous avez perdu votre chance de les télécharger (pour votre usage personnel) la deuxième fois que Pierre les a rendus disponibles, alors c'est dommage.
S'il vous plaît, respectez les souhaits de Pierre et avec le temps, il pourra en partager plus. Manque de respect et ne pense pas à obtenir quelque chose de plus, je le garantis.
Cordialement
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: stargate22 on April 23, 2018, 03:32:43 AM
Dole and everyone,

There is a reason Pierre has removed his videos from the public. Please respect his wishes as they are HIS videos.
If you made a copy for your own research that is fine. However, you have no right to repost them to the general public without his permission.
If you lost your chance to download them (for your personal use) the second time Pierre made them available then it's your tough luck.

Please respect Pierre's wishes and in time he may share more. Disrespect him and you'll get nothing more. That I can promise you.

Regards
Luc

Fr. Dole et tout le monde,
Il y a une raison pour laquelle Pierre a retiré ses vidéos du public. S'il vous plaît respecter ses souhaits car ce sont ses vidéos.
Si vous avez fait une copie pour votre propre recherche, c'est bien. Cependant, vous n'avez pas le droit de les rediffuser au grand public sans sa permission.
Si vous avez perdu votre chance de les télécharger (pour votre usage personnel) la deuxième fois que Pierre les a rendus disponibles, alors c'est dommage.
S'il vous plaît, respectez les souhaits de Pierre et avec le temps, il pourra en partager plus. Manque de respect et ne pense pas à obtenir quelque chose de plus, je le garantis.
Cordialement
Luc



Agreed....Pierre's wishes should be respected,  as he has given us this much  : ]
He's also trying to make us "Think" which makes us better for it....
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: gotoluc on April 23, 2018, 03:43:21 AM
Thanks stargate22 for your supportive voice towards my moderation.

Regards
Luc
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 04:05:50 AM
Hi,
Firstly I would kindly appreciate if someone has time to analyze
and secondly if had any luck to copy deleted YouTube video:

1.Can anyone help determinate polarity of the “spinning” permanent magnets from published video
   (170W in -1600W out) in slow motion, referring to timeline from 02:25 - 02:39 and 05:31 - 05:51?
   
-deleted link-

2. Does anybody can help providing download link of the previously published video,
    where is “how to” assembly, step by step,  two small “DC” motors, (one with extra opposing magnets),
    100% free energy “building tutorial”, running each other by rubber band, pulleys and capacitor.

Download Link : ??

(That it may have some benefits later)

Thanks,

d.
polarity of the test aparatus magnets doesn't really matter...  at 5:45, he's putting a magnet back on.  he first matches it to the other magnet (they breifly attach) so he puts the magnets back on with opposing poles.  (  S-N  ... N-S ) on the other side.  I guess that's why he has such a problem putting it back on... in the 2:30 range, as soon as he takes it off, the rotating part tries to rotate, trying to bring the south to meet the N that's off now...




That video does have the wipe; someone said 'charges to 25V in 30 seconds' but there's no knowing because between 10-25.1V is cut. ( at 3:28)(yes, charaging starts at 2:58 so... 30 seconds of film time; but it only goes up to (4.5-10.4) (6V in 30 seconds, so would be another 3 minutes (more because the rate slows) )


----
The LEDs never show a skip....
I guess at 1RPS (60RPM) it's really   1000/36  or 27ms per click ... every 250ms seems to be a lull; but 250 isn't really a harmonic... so I'm not sure why there's a lull...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: dole on April 23, 2018, 04:11:02 AM
Hi,
Absolutely, we all learn fast, my apologies, this mistake will never repeat again.
(As fare as respect refers to reality, it is not certain, and as fare as it becomes certain, it does not refer to reality no more)
Thanks,

d.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 23, 2018, 04:29:57 AM
polarity of the test aparatus magnets doesn't really matter...  at 5:45, he's putting a magnet back on.  he first matches it to the other magnet (they breifly attach) so he puts the magnets back on with opposing poles.  (  S-N  ... N-S ) on the other side.  I guess that's why he has such a problem putting it back on... in the 2:30 range, as soon as he takes it off, the rotating part tries to rotate, trying to bring the south to meet the N that's off now...




That video does have the wipe; someone said 'charges to 25V in 30 seconds' but there's no knowing because between 10-25.1V is cut. ( at 3:28)(yes, charaging starts at 2:58 so... 30 seconds of film time; but it only goes up to (4.5-10.4) (6V in 30 seconds, so would be another 3 minutes (more because the rate slows) )


----
The LEDs never show a skip....
I guess at 1RPS (60RPM) it's really   1000/36  or 27ms per click ... every 250ms seems to be a lull; but 250 isn't really a harmonic... so I'm not sure why there's a lull...

Yet look at Pierre's original Arduino sketch, and count the number of "delay()" statements between turning a pin HIGH and turning that same pin LOW, for each pin.

I think this is the point T-1000 is making in his post above where he lists some of the lines from the sketch. Count the delay(x) statements between turning a pin HIGH and then turning it LOW.  The pins do not all get the same total "delay" or ON time.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: partzman on April 23, 2018, 04:36:36 AM
http://overunity.com/login/
polarity of the test aparatus magnets doesn't really matter...  at 5:45, he's putting a magnet back on.  he first matches it to the other magnet (they breifly attach) so he puts the magnets back on with opposing poles.  (  S-N  ... N-S ) on the other side.  I guess that's why he has such a problem putting it back on... in the 2:30 range, as soon as he takes it off, the rotating part tries to rotate, trying to bring the south to meet the N that's off now...




That video does have the wipe; someone said 'charges to 25V in 30 seconds' but there's no knowing because between 10-25.1V is cut. ( at 3:28)(yes, charaging starts at 2:58 so... 30 seconds of film time; but it only goes up to (4.5-10.4) (6V in 30 seconds, so would be another 3 minutes (more because the rate slows) )

Actually, what I said was quote-

"Well, I see that the videos are once again removed so I can't refer to the first video when Pierre shows the charging of the supercaps from 4.64v to 10.4v over a ~32 second period."

Regards,
Pm

Quote
----
The LEDs never show a skip....
I guess at 1RPS (60RPM) it's really   1000/36  or 27ms per click ... every 250ms seems to be a lull; but 250 isn't really a harmonic... so I'm not sure why there's a lull...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 05:03:40 AM
Yet look at Pierre's original Arduino sketch, and count the number of "delay()" statements between turning a pin HIGH and turning that same pin LOW, for each pin.

I think this is the point T-1000 is making in his post above where he lists some of the lines from the sketch. Count the delay(x) statements between turning a pin HIGH and then turning it LOW.  The pins do not all get the same total "delay" or ON time.


Ya; ... 30fps is 33.33ms(or less, is it 24fps video) ... and cycle delay is something like 27... so
Audio channel does actually have better data...
I'm kinda rusty on isolating clicks (there's lots of pop and click removers, not many amplifiers... which I guess is remove them, then subtract the result from the input... kinda like work.
Spectra analysis doesn't give good time resolution; but would think a pop would be a wide-spread high FFT. 


(turned sideways to not overflow message width)


but 'low' is off.  it's not reverse. 
'high' is on.  and the opposite coil also (in reverse)
so his coils are running in parallel.


Edit: Replaced image with just 1 second, so more than 1 pixel per millisecond... 250 millisecond spans.
I noticed in the other video with the cycle counter that the pitch had changed... I wonder if this is running to 50Hz instead of 60?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 23, 2018, 05:41:27 AM
Nicely done! You can clearly see the long interval followed by a short interval, happening every 12 "clicks".

So is this deliberately done, or is it an easily made mistake in the original Arduino sketch (which was clearly written
by someone with very little Arduino or c++ experience)?

If it is deliberate, what is the rationale behind this "stutter" in the smooth sequential "rotation" of the superimposing fields?

If it's a mistake, I think several "corrected" versions of the Arduino code have already been posted.

But is LUC now using the Propeller board, which I think uses a version of BASIC? Does Luc's program also have this little stutter?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 23, 2018, 05:49:09 AM

Funny that the image shows that he wants to solve the problem with 4 poles instead of 6.  In order for him to do this he would have to replace each coil to a 9 pole bridge instead of his 6.  Always look at the pattern.  For a 4 pole to work correctly, you would need to trigger 9 coils in series with a bridge gap of 9. Do you see his pattern?   This means we might have problems doing our setup with the same bridged poles as the 36 pole.  It should be 5 to match his same configuration.  [size=78%]I beginning to realize why the overlap in coil windings will be a problem.  I can see how his new configuration will work better!

I also believe we could do this method of pulsing on a toriod completely solid state. 

I was also able to place the priming sequence of coils to visualize the arrangement.  My original post had a wrong pin number, 14 should have been 13.  The reason for this PIN change is because all odd relays are on the outside and even relays are on the inside.  See image.  I still don't understand why he is priming the entire stator prior to sequence.  Maybe this image will help others.   

Jerdee
Jerdee,


Regarding the hold sequence, I don't believe there is one (at least not on purpose). It is not part of the original sketch Pierre provided. The facts that some pins are high initially, is most likely because the Arduino enters the bootloader first which will probably have some pins set to high to communicate with outside world or on board peripherals.


Pin 1 is a TX0 output pin (serial port).
Pin 13 is a PWM pin
Pin 20 and 21 are SCA and SCL pins which are I2C pins


PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: pmgr on April 23, 2018, 05:59:04 AM

Ya; ... 30fps is 33.33ms(or less, is it 24fps video) ... and cycle delay is something like 27... so
Audio channel does actually have better data...
I'm kinda rusty on isolating clicks (there's lots of pop and click removers, not many amplifiers... which I guess is remove them, then subtract the result from the input... kinda like work.
Spectra analysis doesn't give good time resolution; but would think a pop would be a wide-spread high FFT. 


(turned sideways to not overflow message width)


but 'low' is off.  it's not reverse. 
'high' is on.  and the opposite coil also (in reverse)
so his coils are running in parallel.


Edit: Replaced image with just 1 second, so more than 1 pixel per millisecond... 250 millisecond spans.
I noticed in the other video with the cycle counter that the pitch had changed... I wonder if this is running to 50Hz instead of 60?
Pierre's code has 24 times delay(x) in it. Your total scan is about 250ms for this, so his x value is about 10ms. This means his relays stay on four 3*delay(x)=30ms, then off for 210ms. Frequency is around 4Hz (250ms).

PmgR
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 06:04:35 AM
Pierre's code has 24 times delay(x) in it. Your total scan is about 250ms for this, so his x value is about 10ms. This means his relays stay on four 3*delay(x)=30ms, then off for 210ms.


PmgR
total scan is 1second - or 4 250ms sections.  Previously it was like 3 seconds (before edit)


yes; but that only results in 12 on events.  (and 12 off)



There is a short spike between most peeks which is probably the release. 
There is a bit of chatter too... it's not a sharp snap...(but that's what relays do)


but the engage is typically louder than the release.


(that is the same as(it didn't change during that video) frequency used to run the microwave and drill; although it was only shortly after turning on, there was a lull in the background )music.)


---


I do think the long space before blue lines(250ms) (image was rotated clockwise, from time left to right to time top to bottom) Uhmm ya the space is 2 Off's followed by 2 quick On's.In the Working live demonstration; I do not think that is a bug, but that there is a time of no lights on that the video does not show. (but original code and audio do)
Having the ability to instantanously remove the magnet from a generator is unique to this scheme.


I also think it could be optimized to just cycle the poles over the collecting coil  (that in 6 poles the sides don't actually play that much role). (less power for coils that don't do much)
like only use (1-10) and (16-25) 1-12 and (16-27 or 18-29) and ignore the other 2 ....
 (plus a span of 5 covers 1-17/ or a span of 4 on 30 coil cover up to 14   ...  a full half cycle walking through 12 coils (24 delays))

--------
This is more on the theory of this though; A magnet approaching a coil increases current in the coil... I guess a drive coil 'approaches' by having its current increase...  nevermind.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 06:20:13 AM
So... 4 poles... One would imagine N-S-N-S going around?  that makes opposite coils opposing polarity... and if it's N-S-S-N then it's really only 2 poles....
(N-S-N-S) but the mating flux is going to be from bottom to side and side to top; not trough the pickup coil...
Although there was that generator (probably years ago now) that was replaced rotor with permanent magents wound in coils?  that was 4 pole....
And flux-gate generators can be 4 pole... but the pickup coil is on the edge between magnets, not in the center.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: TinselKoala on April 23, 2018, 06:49:05 AM
Jerdee,


Regarding the hold sequence, I don't believe there is one (at least not on purpose). It is not part of the original sketch Pierre provided. The facts that some pins are high initially, is most likely because the Arduino enters the bootloader first which will probably have some pins set to high to communicate with outside world or on board peripherals.


Pin 1 is a TX0 output pin (serial port).
Pin 13 is a PWM pin
Pin 20 and 21 are SCA and SCL pins which are I2C pins


PmgR
The sketch from Pierre certainly doesn't include any deliberate "hold sequence" on startup. But I also don't think that it is coming from the Mega's pin states at startup. My testing here hasn't shown any pin activations other than what is specifically called for in the sketch. As I posted previously I have occasionally had problems using pins 0 and 1 (the serial rx and tx pins) but this simple sketch didn't show problems when I tested it.
Also, on the Mega all pins from 2 to 13 are PWM capable using analogWrite() statements but the sketch is exclusively using digitalWrite() and again I haven't seen any spurious pin activations on startup here either.
Pin 13 does have an internal LED connected to it on Mega, Uno and other Arduino boards though. Here's something I found on an Arduino forum:
Quote
Due to the changes made on Rev3 Uno and mega boards the on board pin13 LED is not longer directly driven by the AVR output pin but rather 'buffered' via a spare op-amp stage. This results in a floating input pin condition for the op-amp which can result in the led being on when it shouldn't be, but it's a rather random thing as the offset input value of the op-amp plays a role. The only way to be absolutly sure that the pin 13 led remains off is to do both a pinMode(13,OUTPUT) and a digitalWrite(13,LOW), best placed in your setup function

My own Mega isn't a Rev3 version though.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 23, 2018, 11:08:33 AM
Rotating field:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IKX8MeVQio

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: ramset on April 23, 2018, 11:14:09 AM
Maybe Pierre can comment here ??
moving forward ??

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 23, 2018, 11:46:49 AM
My own Mega isn't a Rev3 version though.
The board I got is Rev3 and it activates pins 13 (internal LED) and temporary 2 (internal TX LED) on boot after quick test.

In regards to end of cycle there are 2 LOW signals sent in Pierre's sketch.

And the question still to me is if 2 coil relays are activated at once on HIGH signal, is that 4 coils distance (as like in Pierre's series coil connection explanation video) or just same coil getting connected to negative terminal.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: Jeg on April 23, 2018, 12:38:30 PM
Rotating field:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IKX8MeVQio

Thanks r2fpl
Nice work. By the background noise looks like you use relays instead of solid state switches.

Seaad
On the thin red wire.
I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc or it has any kind of ripple at 120Hz when the device is working. If the latter is true then it can be used for sync. Perhaps the unknown 37pin of Pierre opens and closes according the peaks of this signal. A switched ground point perhaps? Or a sync method for bringing the output peaks in time accordance with the input wave? Only Pierre knows. 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: r2fpl on April 23, 2018, 12:42:01 PM
Thanks r2fpl
Nice work. By the background noise looks like you use relays instead of solid state switches.


Yes, relays.  I try with L298n but not stability for 2 channels output and too hot. Relays works very well.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 23, 2018, 01:15:52 PM
Seaad
On the thin red wire.
I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc or it has any kind of ripple at 120Hz when the device is working. If the latter is true then it can be used for sync. Perhaps the unknown 37pin of Pierre opens and closes according the peaks of this signal. A switched ground point perhaps? Or a sync method for bringing the output peaks in time accordance with the input wave? Only Pierre knows.

Jeg, " at 120Hz  can be used for sync" .  Agree. This is an odd connection with thin wire. Just a signal current?    About the freq. just leave that  :D :D
 Has it to do with the current consumption to his big transformer during charge and under operation?

My pics showing Volt and Amp with the Microwave Oven   OFF  and   ON.

Does anybody know "APME" the label on the Micro Oven?  A company??
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 23, 2018, 07:07:56 PM

Seaad
On the thin red wire.
I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc or it has any kind of ripple at 120Hz when the device is working. If the latter is true then it can be used for sync. Perhaps the unknown 37pin of Pierre opens and closes according the peaks of this signal. A switched ground point perhaps? Or a sync method for bringing the output peaks in time accordance with the input wave? Only Pierre knows.
[/quote]

Interesting: it could explain why he needs this 4 ohms resistor:
To power the coils/switches with some ripple (variable current) and recover from the diodes on the other side.
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 23, 2018, 07:54:03 PM
Seaad
On the thin red wire.
I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc or it has any kind of ripple at 120Hz when the device is working. If the latter is true then it can be used for sync. Perhaps the unknown 37pin of Pierre opens and closes according the peaks of this signal. A switched ground point perhaps? Or a sync method for bringing the output peaks in time accordance with the input wave? Only Pierre knows.

Interesting: it could explain why he needs this 4 ohms resistor:
To power the coils/switches with some ripple (variable current) and recover from the diodes on the other side.

cheors  I think you are close!  If true, goes to relays 71, 72    (first anyhow) !!    See pic

"I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc " Anyhow a much higher level!

The only BUT here is that the wires goes slightly backwards when they comes up behind the bottom relay assembly.

cheors On your CurrentVariation pic : I'm Not convinced that Pierres diodes goes to both plus an minus ? See an earlier post of mine. Reply #477 on: April 16, 2018, Page 32,


Regards  Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 23, 2018, 09:20:28 PM
Seaad
On the thin red wire.
I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc or it has any kind of ripple at 120Hz when the device is working. If the latter is true then it can be used for sync. Perhaps the unknown 37pin of Pierre opens and closes according the peaks of this signal. A switched ground point perhaps? Or a sync method for bringing the output peaks in time accordance with the input wave? Only Pierre knows.


Interesting: it could explain why he needs this 4 ohms resistor:
To power the coils/switches with some ripple (variable current) and recover from the diodes on the other side.

On a raw linear power supply, the current draw when charging super caps is very high.  I charge my 500F bank by a 30V 30A switch mode supply, which is current limited at 30A and the full 30A is drawn during charging. It would draw a lot more if there were no current  limit. The 4 ohm resistor is just a basic way to limit the current so he doesn't burn out the transformer. The FWBR is rated at 125A. 

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 23, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
Seaad
On the thin red wire.
I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc or it has any kind of ripple at 120Hz when the device is working. If the latter is true then it can be used for sync. Perhaps the unknown 37pin of Pierre opens and closes according the peaks of this signal. A switched ground point perhaps? Or a sync method for bringing the output peaks in time accordance with the input wave? Only Pierre knows.


Interesting: it could explain why he needs this 4 ohms resistor:
To power the coils/switches with some ripple (variable current) and recover from the diodes on the other side.

Its a very thin wire, it cannot be carrying much current.

Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 23, 2018, 09:48:02 PM
cheors  I think you are close!  If true, goes to relays 71, 72    (first anyhow) !!    See pic

"I wonder if the voltage across the blue cap is a completely smoothed dc " Anyhow a much higher level!

The only BUT here is that the wires goes slightly backwards when they comes up behind the bottom relay assembly.

cheors On your CurrentVariation pic : I'm Not convinced that Pierres diodes goes to both plus an minus ? See an earlier post of mine. Reply #477 on: April 16, 2018, Page 32,


Regards  Arne




The diodes are wired 2 in parallel which is  a strange way to get the current rating doubled however, maybe its just cheaper doing it that way. The way its drawn ,the diodes look like they are either side of the switch each one joined a potentially different current flow.  Anyway they just are not connected that way.

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: T-1000 on April 23, 2018, 09:55:13 PM
The diodes are wired 2 in parallel which is  a strange way to get the current rating doubled however, maybe its just cheaper doing it that way. The way its drawn ,the diodes look like they are either side of the switch each one joined a potentially different current flow.  Anyway they just are not connected that way.

L192
There are two factors which make sense wiring transistors and diodes in paralel: lowering resistance and eliminating generated heat.
Instead of wasting energy as heat I am also doing paralel diode connections in experiments when frequency and internal capacitance do not interfere.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 23, 2018, 10:05:39 PM
L192
Still the transformer needs 0.5 Amp when charging supercaps (via 4 Ohm)  and 1.5--> 2.5 Amps to the same primary when running the system. I can't believe that the thin wire I pointed at, feeding some or more  relays can handle 4-8 Amp at the secondary side while only a slight current goes thru and warms up, that super HOT 4 Ohm resistor. Look at the size of the wires to and from that resistor. We need a better explanation
Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 10:10:07 PM
L192
Still the transformer needs 0.5 Amp when charging supercaps (via 4 Ohm)  and 1.5--> 2.5 Amps to the same primary when running the system. I can't believe that the thin wire I pointed at, feeding some or more  relays can handle 4-8 Amp at the secondary side while only a slight current goes thru and wrms up, that super HOT 4 Ohm resistor. Look at te size of the wiresto and from that resistor. We need a better explanation
Arne
the red wire is probably the common power for driving the relay coils.  Most relays require 15-20mA; and since only 3 or 6 relays are engaged at a time, only requires 45-60 or 90-120mA respectively.

Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 23, 2018, 10:18:36 PM
the red wire is probably the common power for driving the relay coils.  Most relays require 15-20mA; and since only 3 or 6 relays are engaged at a time, only requires 45-60 or 90-120mA respectively.


?????
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 23, 2018, 11:14:37 PM


 ??? ??
hmm i see
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 24, 2018, 12:14:23 AM

Can someone(everyone?) share some specs about their coils?  What is the resistance of a drive coil?  how long is it? how many turns? what is the measured inductance (without the pickup core)?  what gauge wire?


how many strands can fit in one of those slots?  (Yes, more for higher gauge) so...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 24, 2018, 01:18:28 AM
You can find it here:  gotoluc,   listener192,  r2fpl, ariovaldo and my posts.

Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #402 on: March 21, 2018, 10:55:04 PM »

Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
« Reply #403 on: March 22, 2018, 12:32:11 AM »
Or here:
Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: d3x0r on April 24, 2018, 01:25:18 AM
You can find it here:  gotoluc,   listener192,  r2fpl, ariovaldo and my posts.

Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video (http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/msg518625/#msg518625)
« Reply #402 on: March 21, 2018, 10:55:04 PM »

Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video (http://overunity.com/17609/170-watts-in-1600-watts-out-looped-very-impressive-build-and-video/msg518628/#msg518628)
« Reply #403 on: March 22, 2018, 12:32:11 AM »
Or here:
Re: 170 watts in - 1600 watts out - looped - Very impressive build and video
Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
 ??? (where?)
Thanks.  You can right click on the link-title just above the 'reply#' and copy the link.
[ url=<paste>]short text [ /url]  (without the leading space)




----
Edit:
according to...
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/wirega.html
500 feet of gauge 10 wire would be 0.5Ohm.
Is that 0.526K Ohm?  Hmm no; because you'd need 20,000 feet of 24ga wire...
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: cheors on April 24, 2018, 09:00:45 AM

cheors On your CurrentVariation pic : I'm Not convinced that Pierres diodes goes to both plus an minus ? See an earlier post of mine. Reply #477 on: April 16, 2018, Page 32,

Regards  Arne

Yes, impossible because the diodes are wired the same direction, anode with anode. I did not pay attention !
Were to connect the 2 cathodes ?
Not at the same point. They would be in parallel and the only justification would be a problem of power.
But it would be better then to choose more powerful diodes or to add heatsinks.
The only possibility is to find 2 different positives points.
Like this: what do you think?
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 24, 2018, 09:08:12 AM
Jeg, " at 120Hz  can be used for sync" .  Agree. This is an odd connection with thin wire. Just a signal current?    About the freq. just leave that  :D :D
 Has it to do with the current consumption to his big transformer during charge and under operation?

My pics showing Volt and Amp with the Microwave Oven   OFF  and   ON.

Does anybody know "APME" the label on the Micro Oven?  A company??

Thats just an inventory label. Its a GE MO.

This is the model.

http://www.geappliances.ca/en/products/cooking/microwaves/applproducts/JES1138SNC#tab-Details

@41lbs This has a 60Hz line transformer.
The power 1500W @13A.




Regards

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 24, 2018, 10:11:11 AM
Hi listener192
It's good you found the exact model of MO and that it really consumes 1500 Watt. After all Pierre seems to have produced 60 Hz despite that low 4Hz -->12-15Hz repettion frequency. But We can't  figure that out.
How??

But my question was about that sticker at top rigt hand side. "APME-MICR-029".
See Reply #622 on: April 23, 2018

Regards Arne
 
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: listener192 on April 24, 2018, 10:21:54 AM
Hi listener192
It's good you found the exact model of MO and that it really consumes 1500 Watt. After all Pierre seems to have produced 60 Hz despite that low 4Hz -->12-15Hz repettion frequency. But We can't  figure that out.
How??

But my question was about that sticker at top rigt hand side. "APME-MICR-029".

Regards Arne

Why are you concerned about a sticker that has been applied, that is obviously not a GE applied item?

L192
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
Post by: seaad on April 24, 2018, 10:24:26 AM
Yes, impossible because the diodes are wired the same direction, anode with anode. I did not pay attention !
Were to connect the 2 cathodes ?
Not at the same point. They would be in parallel and the only justification would be a problem of power.
But it would be better then to choose more powerful diodes or to add heatsinks.
The only possibility is to find 2 different positives points.
Like this: what do you think?

 Maybe his first intention was as in your first drawing when he made the diode board. To + and - . But changed the concept later to parallel diodes.
Regards Arne
Title: Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated