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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 99003 times)

Offline FixedSys

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1335 on: October 03, 2018, 01:51:29 PM »
Here is the answer to the rotor flux problem.
My M16 steel stator was saturating at 1.5T(purple color on previous posted plots).A linear B/H plot from FEMM demonstrates this below.


If I apply a stator model equivalent to Pierres stator i.e. 33% pole length 66% solid steel, then 1.4T is achieved with only 5A through the coils, without any other input on the rotor.
The attached flux plot shows 1.4T or 2.8T swing with 1A of counter flux representing a 236W load.There is also more flux capacity on the stator and rotor.


Pierre's  stator is unusually thick and I think we will not be able to replicate a working device without the thicker stator.

No matter how the flux is generated, if the stator steel saturates, the flux will not be fully coupled to the rotor.

So the stator cross sectional area must be greater than or equal to that of the rotor? Why aren't the pole ribs a flux limiting bottleneck if they have the smallest area?

If I have digested your posts correctly, then the coils at either end of the rotor are used for EMF collection. So can the same results be achieved with 120 degrees of stator (9 coils) and a half length rotor, or even 90 degrees (3 stator coils) with extra coils also at both ends of the rotor? I ask because this could cut the cost of the electronics by 60 or 70 percent. It could also allow for simple fabrication of the array of stator segments. I'm thinking bars machined over the length with a bull nosed cutter then welded together in a radial arrangement so the coil field focal point is the end of the half length rotor.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline listener192

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1336 on: October 03, 2018, 10:04:23 PM »
So the stator cross sectional area must be greater than or equal to that of the rotor? Why aren't the pole ribs a flux limiting bottleneck if they have the smallest area?

If I have digested your posts correctly, then the coils at either end of the rotor are used for EMF collection. So can the same results be achieved with 120 degrees of stator (9 coils) and a half length rotor, or even 90 degrees (3 stator coils) with extra coils also at both ends of the rotor? I ask because this could cut the cost of the electronics by 60 or 70 percent. It could also allow for simple fabrication of the array of stator segments. I'm thinking bars machined over the length with a bull nosed cutter then welded together in a radial arrangement so the coil field focal point is the end of the half length rotor.


Hi FixedSys,


Yes, the FEMM plots confirm that the stator CSA has to equal or exceed the rotor CSA, if you want most of the stator flux to cross the rotor.
5HP upwards motors, have greater stator thickness in proportion to the teeth depth and offer that larger CSA.


In the thin stator FEMM plot, the stator thickness (both sides combined) is equivalent to about 4 teeth thickness of the 5 teeth shown, so the flux impediment is the stator. The stator enters saturation before the rotor even gets close.

In the thick stator FEMM plot, the stator thickness (both sides combined) is equivalent to about 8 teeth thickness, so the flux impediment is the teeth feeding the rotor, however we can still easily get the flux level through the rotor up to saturation, which for M15 steel is about 1.5T 
 
On the face of it, other geometries could offer improvements however, not something I am considering at this time, as this would be introducing another variable into a mix that we still don't understand.


Regards
L192



Offline listener192

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1337 on: October 14, 2018, 08:28:27 PM »
Attached.

1. Output power @15V DC input
2. Unfiltered output voltage showing recovery voltage transitions
3. Unfiltered output voltage driven to maximum. Note: stator in full saturation, as predicated by FEMM simulations.
4. Picture of finished Boost H bridges x 15 driving opposite stator coils in parallel. Note: control/driver hardware behind the bridge boards.
5. Super cap recovery current (yellow) and voltage(about 25V DC for approx 15V DC input) [/size]

7 coils either side are energised (2 pole), 5 slot pitch. Rotor covers 6 poles.

Some further experimentation with software planned however, main push now will be to find new stator from 5HP to 10HP motor.


Highly inefficient at this time, as saturation of stator causes coil inductance to fall rapidly above 10A total input draw. If the stator was thicker and did not saturate, the coil inductance would be higher and recovery voltage/current would increase.


The maximum input on this test was 47A @ 15.5V DC.


The H bridge and recovery circuits remain cool. 4 Ohm resistor (large heatsink), gets warm.


The other two 58A diodes on heatsinks are...


A. Isolation for DC Switch Mode power supply input.
B. In series with 4 Ohm resistor to block initial charging of 27F super cap bank.


The bank charges initially through the H bridge isolation diodes when the HSS switches are turned on.
As the circuit runs straight away the bank charges fast through the recovery diodes, as well.


At the moment the parallel connected coils are 180 degs apart.
There maybe some improvement in rotor coupling by offsetting the coils, so they couple through through the rotor by the shortest path.


L192

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1337 on: October 14, 2018, 08:28:27 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1338 on: October 14, 2018, 09:21:33 PM »
WOW L192, you are the most dedicated true builder I have ever seen so far.

Thanks for sharing
Kind regards
Luc

 

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