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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 102736 times)

Offline listener192

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Test of new MOSFET board.
Low RDS results in 5A of coil current for only 5V input.
10A for 10V with 10A recovery.
Switching node voltage has little signs of transient spike due to slow MOSFET switch off.
Slow switch on also means only 200mV of below ground ringing.
Tested  @30A, heat sink remained cool.

Clock input was TTL.
Looks like this will make a good H bridge part.

Final shot shorter period using Arduino clock. 10A requires 12.7V input



L192

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Offline listener192

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Here is the answer to the rotor flux problem.
My M16 steel stator was saturating at 1.5T(purple color on previous posted plots).A linear B/H plot from FEMM demonstrates this below.


If I apply a stator model equivalent to Pierres stator i.e. 33% pole length 66% solid steel, then 1.4T is achieved with only 5A through the coils, without any other input on the rotor.
The attached flux plot shows 1.4T or 2.8T swing with 1A of counter flux representing a 236W load.There is also more flux capacity on the stator and rotor.


Pierre's  stator is unusually thick and I think we will not be able to replicate a working device without the thicker stator.

No matter how the flux is generated, if the stator steel saturates, the flux will not be fully coupled to the rotor.

Offline listener192

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Here is the Floating DC supplies circuit I have been using.
Its pretty bomb proof, even a driver failure shorting the +15V supply is recoverable if you use L series 7815 that have SOA protection.
L192

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Offline listener192

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Makes for a slow turn off @70uS but additional cap across Drain Source solves parasitic turn on spike.
Cap now hold drain voltage  after boost diode switches off. Cap discharges slowly so no dv/dt problem.
Turn on is not fast @5uS, however device doesn't get warm even at 30A
A compromise driver circuit that does the job.
 
L192

Offline listener192

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Test for robustness of Boost H bridge.

Attached shows 8 coil on periods in 10ms.

The 30V input voltage results in 45V recovery into cap bank.

This then feeds into input cap through 4ohm resistor, in this instance about 10A pk flow through the resistor back into the input cap.
This is just  a single parallel pair of coils.
Note: This test was without rotor load. With rotor load the coil current (for this input voltage increases considerably.

The Boost H Bridge design is usable, although an improved MOSFET drive would reduce the LSS dissipation. The duty cycle for each coil pair is less than 100% so I will see if heat becomes a problem.  If it does I will take the driver outboard and use a well tried circuit for the LSS's.
The HSS's have a low duty cycle, so they can use the existing on board driver.

It was noted that as you load the rotor, the coil current increases which decreases the input cap voltage. When the input cap voltage decreases, the potential difference between the input cap and the cap bank increases and therefore maintains recovery current to the input cap.
For 16.5A average through the coils 4A average recovery is maintained under all load conditions.

L192
 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 08:57:11 AM by listener192 »

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Offline dhodge

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Hi All,

I was very sceptical about this whole setup but thought I would give it a go and see what the outcome is, I see that many people have also made this setup and not succeeded in getting any reasonable output from the unit.
I have not given up with it yet but my observations of the whole topic are as follows:

1. Pierre posted a video showing his device producing 100+ volts output.
2. GotoLuc made a similar setup but with only 30 slots instead of 36 - I personally dont think that the missing 6 slots in the stator would make so much difference.
3. Pierre released a copy of the source code which was copied, this code also appears to be the same as that used by Pierre in his original video, in as much as the LEDS are looking similar.
4. Pierre produced drawings and after examination by people following this topic it was decided how to wire the stator.

In my opinion members of this forum have reproduced devices close enough for somebody to have found a result, then Pierre states that all these copies have just produced a rotating field and that the "pistons" are missing, and saying he has withheld some vital details, This cannot be the case as the reproduction has been done pretty faithfully, in so far as the rotating field etc, same LED Sequencing etc.

I think that returning the energy back to the caps, while it will help with the overall efficiency is not where the "secret" lies. We should be able to reproduce the high output voltage without the energy going back to the caps, although we would consume more current.

Obviously if we put many many more turns on the block (fixed rotor) we would increase the output voltage, but, this would then be just acting as a transformer.

I have a few questions which may be useless but they may cause a Eureka moment for someone else reading them.

1. What is the Orange material in between the rotor and the stator? Is it paper or some secret thing, if I put paper between my rotor and stator my low output voltage becomes even lower, but in Pierres video the orange material is in between his rotor and stator.
2. When using a switched mode power supply to feed the caps it will attempt to regulate the voltage of the capacitor bank, or at least my one did, it was necessary to add diodes in the +ve and -ve lines to prevent the psu from regulating the cap bank voltage.

My output voltage is very low, attached are some pictures, 1 of my setup and 1 of my voltage output waveform and 1 of the motor I used.

Offline gotoluc

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Wow, great job dhodge
As far as I can see you have done everything right based on the information that has been provided.
Hopefully Pierre will come back before the end of the year to show his improved DZ version 2

Thanks for taking the time to share your result even though they are similar to what replicators have achieved.

Regards
Luc

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Offline dhodge

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Forgot to mention in my post that I actually wired the stator 4 times and differently each time before settling back to the original one which is 36 slots each coil with 6 slot span, so all slots have 2 windings in them.
Have both ends of each coil out to terminals so can swap them at my leisure, spent weeks trying so many different permutations of the coils to end up no better off.

I honestly did not believe it could possibly work but thought I would give it a go anyway, unfortunately I am still not 100% sure that it wont work but above 90%, I hope for the sake of the planet and all the other things that go with it that Pierre comes along with the answers and follows it through.

Just for information,  I had variable delays which could be entered into a web page on my attempt at the DZ generator, all of the Bridge boards were switched using SPI Port Expanders so only using a few IO Lines of the processor.

The coil switching was as in the below file, just to explain briefly there are 2 times set from the user interface, 1 is the overlap time and called switching_delay, the other is the coil running time - pulse_duration,

This is to say - coil on for pulse_duration time, then next coils in sequence are switched on and this means both sets are then on for the switching_delay time, then the first coils are switched off - that is to say the 2nd set of coils are on on their own for pulse_duration time. ( This is hard to say in words )

The xStepMode part at the begining of each step allows me to pause the sequencer and step manually, This is mainly for checking wiring for shorts (had 1 in the stator at some point) and correct direction of pole (N/S etc)

Only really posting to share information, if anyone sees any "deliberate mistake" it may be helpful. Coil notation is as in the connection between coils, eg COIL_1_2_HI means coil1- and coil 2+ connected to high power supply, COIL_1_2_LO is the same connection but to gnd, COIL_1_2_OFF means floating (Subject to body diodes).

Switching pattern should conform to the picture below (Taken from elsewhere on the site)

The time delays are accurate and can go as low as 50 microseconds, processor running at 150MHZ and program is compiled from C.





Offline stupify12

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It think its the same device everyone trying to replicate.. Using low Farad caps 1-10uf would do.

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Offline listener192

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Hi All,

I was very sceptical about this whole setup but thought I would give it a go and see what the outcome is, I see that many people have also made this setup and not succeeded in getting any reasonable output from the unit.
I have not given up with it yet but my observations of the whole topic are as follows:

1. Pierre posted a video showing his device producing 100+ volts output.
2. GotoLuc made a similar setup but with only 30 slots instead of 36 - I personally dont think that the missing 6 slots in the stator would make so much difference.
3. Pierre released a copy of the source code which was copied, this code also appears to be the same as that used by Pierre in his original video, in as much as the LEDS are looking similar.
4. Pierre produced drawings and after examination by people following this topic it was decided how to wire the stator.

In my opinion members of this forum have reproduced devices close enough for somebody to have found a result, then Pierre states that all these copies have just produced a rotating field and that the "pistons" are missing, and saying he has withheld some vital details, This cannot be the case as the reproduction has been done pretty faithfully, in so far as the rotating field etc, same LED Sequencing etc.

I think that returning the energy back to the caps, while it will help with the overall efficiency is not where the "secret" lies. We should be able to reproduce the high output voltage without the energy going back to the caps, although we would consume more current.

Obviously if we put many many more turns on the block (fixed rotor) we would increase the output voltage, but, this would then be just acting as a transformer.

I have a few questions which may be useless but they may cause a Eureka moment for someone else reading them.

1. What is the Orange material in between the rotor and the stator? Is it paper or some secret thing, if I put paper between my rotor and stator my low output voltage becomes even lower, but in Pierres video the orange material is in between his rotor and stator.
2. When using a switched mode power supply to feed the caps it will attempt to regulate the voltage of the capacitor bank, or at least my one did, it was necessary to add diodes in the +ve and -ve lines to prevent the psu from regulating the cap bank voltage.

My output voltage is very low, attached are some pictures, 1 of my setup and 1 of my voltage output waveform and 1 of the motor I used.
Hi DHodge,

Attached is about the best I achieved with the BTS7960B bridge boards. In this test I was using a linear power supply so the power in measured  was on the AC secondary.
If you look at previous posts, you will see that in the case of the stator I used for these tests, the flux wanted to couple across the teeth not so much across the rotor.  I modeled the stator thickness ratio based on Pierres stator and this then ensured most of the flux crossed the rotor.The orange material is just plastic packing to stop the rotor rotating/vibrating.
You wont get enough current through the 5 or 6 coils in series, to achieve any more output than I have shown @25V DC input. Pierre later stated that he used parallel/series coils to overcome this limitation.
The BTS7960B bridge  boards can't support the voltage boost function. I modified a couple to achieve this with additional diodes, but their voltage rating is too low for the voltage boost at 25V DC input, which is about 45V.
I have solved this with a discrete design H boost bridge.

Pierre showed the boost circuit as a separate schematic however, it really needs either a parallel or parallel/series coil arrangement to work and  different code to run it.
So there is much missing from what Pierre has shown.
L192

Offline stargate22

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Hi DHodge,

it really needs either a parallel or parallel/series coil arrangement to work .....
L192


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Offline listener192

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1331 on: September 09, 2018, 03:55:15 PM »
Attached shows progress on my new build.
Driver boards for MOSFET switches, and 30 x isolated 15V DC supplied for all HSS.
Boost H bridges qty 5 per plank.

First plank constructed, and tested remaining two planks will stack vertically on first.
Software completed.
Wiring to stator coils then follows coils in opposed parallel.
For current rotor pole width, I will be using 7 x 2 coils on at a time, 7 coils per pole.



L192

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1332 on: September 09, 2018, 04:34:33 PM »
WOW L192... you sure give it all you've got

Thanks for sharing
Luc

Offline listener192

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1333 on: September 09, 2018, 05:51:44 PM »
WOW L192... you sure give it all you've got

Thanks for sharing
Luc
Hi Gotoluc

The idea is to make it fairly bomb proof.
These switches will handle all the current you want, so in the case of my 30V supply, that would be up to +/-30A through each switch. The MOSFETS are rated at 210A so the RDS is very low. The input current is limited by the high side isolation diodes @ 30A.

Recovery current is rated up to 30A (average) per bridge.

The input rail is up to 60V and recovery up to 100V (limited to 48V by the super cap bank).
If you want to go up in voltage then just change the LSS, for example to 100V. The HSS are isolated by diodes rated at 100V.

In practice, the boost voltage manifests as current drive to charge the cap bank. The cap bank then supplies current to the  much smaller value input cap via the 4 ohm resistor.
I may still be missing something in the architecture, but the building blocks are good.

The HSS's use the on board opto drives and are slow switchers and just control bridge polarity.

The LSS's are driven by Toshiba drivers that have a fast on time and a controlled off time to limit the voltage transient when you turn the LSS's off.

Some may wonder why I didn't just use charge pump MOSFET drivers? and the answer to that is they work OK when driven with a periodic waveform but when your duty cycle starts varying the LSS have to be switched sufficiently frequently to charge the capacitor to maintain a reasonable gate voltage. I wanted to remove his a potential source of problems ,so went for isolated drivers.
Still searching for a 10KW 3 phase motor (not Chinese), that will provide a stator thickness two thirds of the teeth depth.

L192

Offline bolt

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Re: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated
« Reply #1334 on: September 09, 2018, 09:05:19 PM »
looks like a 1970s Moog:)

 

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