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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 149558 times)

Offline konehead

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 hi Jerdee
For the switched a.c. leg it needs to be bidirectional mosfest for example since it  is switvhing ac leg.
Perhaps you could do the delay switching of recovery.over on the dc side.of fwbr now.bidirectional not needed just use single mosfet.
Maybe Pierre does some sort of delayed "echo" recovery circuit through his computer code nobody has picked up on it yet I dont know
SSRs always slow especially heavy amp type but so it is slow just adjust timing to compensate.
The Chinese company Gold makes good SSRs.cheap...460v 40a rated for 16 bucks...20 amp ones about 12 bucks
You can dig out internal mosfet in them and put in your own bidirectional mosfets maybe put 4 in parallel cluster one side another 4 in cluster other side now very low resistance


Can't really beat brush commutators for low resistance switching .
Pierres relays similar as mechanical switching to them so ultra low resistance too...for peak coil shorting very low resistance in switching is required could be reason for success of DZ generator if it does have some sort of coil shorting effect when fields rotate and overlap for a bit of time....
What some people see as cancelling perhaps can be seen as short circuiting of coil and it creates not "nothing at all" but instead hyper ringing effect and this why his caps fill so fast


probably it is something important to mimic permanent magnet field not as N or S  blob of magnetism but instead N edge and S edges sweeping across coil one edge leading the other trailing...think of it like small hurricane spinning over coil and sweeping past coil too at same time to make power...


Fact you need resistive load on coil for it to make power might be key as if there is no Lenz law then the power normally sucked into Lenz law braking action can perhaps coheree with output into caps instead and reinforce not kill it.





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Offline jerdee

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Here is a drawing of the diodes in action that Pierre drew on the back board in one of his videos.   You should see why we have to shut off the field in rotation now.  Keep the code the same using overlap mode.  This also explains why you do not want the coils in series.  You want to isolate the field(s) and you can run them in parallel.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:06:35 AM by jerdee »

Offline jerdee

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Quote
For the switched a.c. leg it needs to be bidirectional mosfest for example since it  is switching ac leg.
I understand the concept of echo, but not fully understanding why you would want to delay the recovery quite yet.  It’s not sinking in for me quite yet.

Again, I have nice quality bi-directional FET boards that will do the exact switching we need for one ac leg, however, this will get costly.  I would need many of these built.  SSR’s was a thought, but can see how they will be too slow. 

Quote
Perhaps you could do the delay switching of recovery.over on the dc side.of fwbr now.bidirectional not needed just use single mosfet.

Thanks. I think it might be best to do it with two instead on the d.c. side.  I like the idea of replacing two of the diodes from FWBR DC side to mosfets instead. A bit cheaper and easier to control.  I like your idea and direction with this.  You don’t have to deal with dual switching of the DC side, only one polarity uses the normal diodes, but the other polarity requires both FETS to be triggered simultaneously.  Active recovery in one direction, not both, and only requires one pin from MCU.  Just trying to think about utilizing recovery for both polarities as much as possible when switching ac.

Here is another thought. You could even setup logic gates to trigger FETs in FWBR to be ON in the correct polarity.  This would require no more MCU pins. Each field group would have it’s own dedicated logic gate to prevent extra pins from MCU to trigger the FWBR FETs. They only turn on when the field is off and in the correct polarity. You don’t need MCU control for this to happen.

Jerdee
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 05:08:30 AM by jerdee »

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Offline pmgr

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I suggest we stick to discussing Pierre's original setup and find out how that setup was possible to work.

1. It had a 4ohm resistor between cap bank and FWB.
2. Relays were driven from FWB, not cap bank (dangerous if the cap bank is low on voltage as it will try to fill the caps through the relays and recovery diodes and will burn the relays)
3. He had 6 poles, NSNSNS, all biased in parallel, no poles in series
4. Original code had everything off at end of every loop

All replications trying to reproduce this setup have failed so far.... question is why.

PmgR







Offline Dog-One

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Here is another thought. You could even setup logic gates to trigger FETs in FWBR to be ON in the correct polarity.

It's called a synchronous or active rectifier and is a method to get past the normal diode drop allowing access to much more current.  Here's a part you may want to experiment with:
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/4320fb.pdf

What I was getting at, it seems you found with the "Diodes In Action".  That resonance between the base sine wave and the peaks I believe is your parametric resonance; that's a real gain you can take advantage of.  If you have this happening in every coil (resonator), those gains add up pretty quick.

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Offline listener192

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Here is a drawing of the diodes in action that Pierre drew on the back board in one of his videos.   You should see why we have to shut off the field in rotation now.  Keep the code the same using overlap mode.  This also explains why you do not want the coils in series.  You want to isolate the field(s) and you can run them in parallel.
All very well but Pierre achieved this with his coils in series.
L192

Offline konehead

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HI all
Something is going on we don't know about and have not clued in yet in fact Pierre himself is not sure "how" it works so well - it just does and a fact is a fact...
Jerdee - the delayed timing of when to complete the recovery circuit does "something good" as it goes in this ABCD sequence: 
A: only DC pulse to inductor
B: pulse to inductor continues, but now diode recovery connects to load of caps...
C: pulse to inductor turns OFF but diode recovery is still connected (perhaps this allows actual inherent backemf to exit and strengthen power of recovery output is my theory) 
D: Diode recovery connection turns off
Something goes on here...like mentioned I think it allows inherent backemf forces to exit inductor instead of lurking and causing backed-up problems it will do "within inductor"
Also you know how if you connect your usual backemf/recoil recovery diode to direct resistive load it just kills the primary DC pulse and amps go up like crazy at primary (so you should fill cap only to prevent this)
Well with this delayed-recovery connection scheme now you can connect recovery diode to loads or very big cap plus in motors, it makes rpms go up dramatic and draw go down.....this when you find just the right timing and delay...There might be something like this going on in DZ generator from the field rotation delaying the recovery to caps via overlapping (but I don't know)
It is a big mystery to me how there can be backemrf/recoil recovery at all if the rotating field does not ever "turn off" ....but then how can you rotate it without turning off coils at some point as the rotation occurs?? Big mystery to me makes no sense....

PMGR:
I agree, lets try and replicate what Pierre did before we go off in assorted directions and hopeless tangents...but problem is its not working, no one is even close to 1600W output....something is going wrong that is for sure could be understanding of the rotation of fields to be like permanent magnet sweep... could be Pierre explaining stuff we get it wrong what he means...he is already building new design so maybe this is clue where we should all be going too but sure would be nice if everything was logical connect this to that do it like this nuts and bolts but it is not is the problem.
Maybe the lack of lenz law (which you get very strong when sweeping permanent magnets) is causing thinking to be backwards how it should go - as resistive load usually kills rotation of permanent magnets, but without lenz braking action, now what and how should everything go and be?
Sorry I don't know but just put in my two cents what I know about generator coils and recovery circuits maybe something I write will click with someone like Jerdee doing the code and we will all prosper from discovery related to my experience...
I am hoping the peak coil shorting stuff happens "all on its own" via the rotation of the field and the overlap period of two coils maybe the coils short go into hyper ring and fill caps like crazy and no one knows including Pierre this is going on and is why his caps fill so quick...
Personally how I think it works is like this:
NSNSNS poles rotating
Each pole spans 6 slots
Slot one winds LHR around first laminate segment, on the 6th laminate segment you wind RHR now an electromagnet is created, with opposite poles at ends, like it should be.
IN BETWEEN (laminate segments 2 3 4 5) now have windings around them and all these become INDUCED PICKUP WINDS and this is where all the "extra power" comes from...
"perhaps" these pickup winds are short-circuited at their peak periods to really blast caps up high and fast either naturally via field rotation doing this, or switched....
Perhaps the energized winds also induce into the rotor, along with the energized segments at both ends and these fields "cohere" and really blast the locked rotor with some good induction...
All this "I don't know" of course...
Also does not make sense exactly how the fields rotate electronically but like permanent magnets would, (seems to be the goal) and does seem to me like someone mentioned recently,  it is more of a "linking" of fields what everyone is doing and thinking right now not so much a good simulation of a permanent magnet sweep (but again I don't know sorry)

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Offline konehead

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Hi PMRG
REading your last post again, you say there are 6 poles, NSNSNS and they are in parallel....
So am thinking, what are the poles? are they 6 laminate segments per pole  in 36 pole stator, and each of those six laminate segments is wound same direction for example NNNNNN within the length of pole for example the N pole of the NSNSNS poles?
I would guess this not the case, and those 6 laminate poles are actually wound NXXXXS or SXXXXN with the Xs representing induced pickup winds....
The adjacent poles would now have N N  or S S adjacent polarities, which some say will create cancelling, but maybe this creates a shorted-condition upon field rotation and not a cancellation effect because of the rotation???? Just for that fleeting moment there is overlapping in the A AB B type of movement Pierre mentions. Just thinking sorry!

Offline r2fpl

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Thinking about the magnetic flux at the end of the magnet and the coils, one would conclude that it could be such a move. Why power the central coils of the rotor.
We would have 2 coils always off and maybe they are the pickups.

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Offline listener192

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There is overlap of each N/S pole which creates cancellation and so we know that squeezing 6 poles into either 36 or 30 slot stators is not optimal. 

Optimization is the path that Pierre is taking now and his comments relate to his current development and not the first.

Expect no assistance from Pierre in replication, he has no interest in this.
Pierre's more recent posts approving of diverse theories and other configurations are more of a distraction from the replication effort.
L192

Offline pmgr

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Konehead,

The way Pierre had his poles/coils configured and biased is as follows:

6 poles each consisting of 6 coils in series. All poles in series (so 36 coils in series together with coil 36 connecting back to coil 1).

He put +Vdd on coil 1, 13, 25 and GND on coil 7, 19, 31. So this effectively puts each pole N/S (consisting of 6 coils in series) in parrallel with the other poles.

This leads to the 6 poles N S N S N S (or nnnnnn ssssss nnnnnn ssssss nnnnnn ssssss) where capital N/S represents a pole and small n/s are the individual coils)

PmgR

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Offline cheors

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Pierre montre le champ magnétique avec de la limaiile de fer.
Je me demande pourquoi les particules de poudre de fer tournent à la fois sur elle-mêmes (à la vitesse de commutation des relais: quelques hertz) et très lentement autour du stator en plusieurs dizaines de secondes.
Il semblerait qu'il y a 2 champs très différents !
Pouvez-vous expliquer ce comportement ?

Pierre shows the magnetic field with iron limaiile.
I wonder why the particles of iron powder turn both on themselves (at the switching speed of the relays: a few hertz) and very slowly around the stator in several tens of seconds.
It seems that there are 2 very different fields!
Can you explain this behavior?

Offline listener192

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[quote author = cheors link = topic = # 17653.msg522769 msg522769 date = 1529511237]
Peter shows the magnetic field with iron limaiile.
I wonder why the iron powder particles rotate at the time on her own (the relay switching speed: a few hertz) and very slowly around the stator by several tens of seconds.
It seems that there are 2 very different fields!
Can you explain this behavior?

Peter shows the magnetic field with iron limaiile.
I wonder why the particles of iron powder Both turn it Themselves (at the switching speed of the relays: a few hertz) and very slowly around the stator in Several tens of seconds.
It Seems That There are 2 very different fields!
Can you explain this behavior?
[/quote]
Well my thought is the waveform switching speed is only 16ms however,  waveform amplitude varies from 0 to 100% at 60Hz.
L192


Offline cheors

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Pour moi, cela n'explique pas le déplacement lent des particules autour du stator.

For me it doesn't explain the slow particles displacement around the stator.

Offline seaad

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"  and very slowly around the stator  "
 ???

 

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