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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 184940 times)

Offline seaad

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The variation of the magnet field is nothing more than the production of pure sine by changing for each field coil. It is the variability of the magnet and it is 60Hz.

Is there anything else?

Maybe the direction of the "flux-lines" ??

Regards Arne

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Offline jerdee

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In a mechanical generator, you have momentum and twisting of the magnetic fields (opposed fields are generated, armature reaction) This is not increments or steps in momentum, armature reaction, and field intensity.  These parameters do not like to be incremented/decremented. 

To simulate momentum, you use overlap in the code to never break the fields rotation.  Again, its not perfect, there is room for improvement here.  I don’t see PWM on each stator coil as the answer, you do not want to shut off the field in rotation.  Hold it as it goes around.  The answer lies in the wire.  If you change the wire as it rotates, and change it in a VERY dramatic way as it rotates (stronger the intensity), you will have something.

I have also shown in my post why the code is not the same through loop.  It is not a glitch. When you learn variation, intensity, and momentum of the magnetic field through the wire only, the code now has purpose.

All while this is going on, the opposed generated field from the intensity is always reflected back and captured. You now see why 72 diodes were used instead of 36.  I believe there is a better way.  I’m not sure on best method moving forward at the moment, but active rectification on coil pairs makes sense to me, at least at this moment.

Remember that the load as generating its own opposed fields for more recovery.

Can anyone of you recommend a proper method for ACTIVE A/C rectification?  When coil is North, you recover differently than when coil is in south.  The stronger your simulated magnetic field, and load, the stronger your recovery needs to be as well.   There are new chips on the market for active rectification, but something tells me there is a simpler method.  So if anyone has experience in this area.  It would be nice to see help.

Jerdee
________
Fr.
Dans un générateur mécanique, vous avez un momentum et une torsion des champs magnétiques (des champs opposés sont générés, une réaction d'induit) Ce ne sont pas des incréments ou des pas dans l'impulsion, la réaction d'induit et l'intensité du champ. Ces paramètres n'aiment pas être incrémentés / décrémentés.

Pour simuler l'élan, vous utilisez le chevauchement dans le code pour ne jamais casser la rotation des champs. Encore une fois, ce n'est pas parfait, il y a place à amélioration ici. Je ne vois pas PWM sur chaque bobine de stator comme la réponse, vous ne voulez pas fermer le champ en rotation. Tenez-le comme il va autour. La réponse réside dans le fil. Si vous changez le fil pendant qu'il tourne, et le changez d'une manière TRÈS dramatique pendant qu'il tourne (plus fort l'intensité), vous aurez quelque chose.

J'ai également montré dans mon post pourquoi le code n'est pas le même à travers la boucle. Ce n'est pas un problème. Lorsque vous apprenez la variation, l'intensité et l'élan du champ magnétique à travers le fil seulement, le code a maintenant un but.

Pendant tout ce temps, le champ généré opposé de l'intensité est toujours réfléchi et capturé. Vous voyez maintenant pourquoi 72 diodes ont été utilisées au lieu de 36. Je crois qu'il y a un meilleur moyen. Je ne suis pas sûr de la meilleure méthode pour l'instant, mais la rectification active sur les paires de bobines est logique pour moi, du moins en ce moment.

Rappelez-vous que la charge génère ses propres champs opposés pour plus de récupération.

Quelqu'un d'entre vous peut-il recommander une méthode appropriée pour la rectification ACTIVE A / C? Lorsque la bobine est au nord, vous récupérez différemment que lorsque la bobine est au sud. Plus votre champ magnétique simulé et votre charge sont forts, plus votre récupération doit être forte. Il y a de nouvelles puces sur le marché pour la rectification active, mais quelque chose me dit qu'il existe une méthode plus simple. Donc, si quelqu'un a de l'expérience dans ce domaine. Ce serait bien de voir de l'aide.

Jerdee

Offline jerdee

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I posted an applet some time back showing a vector animation of how the very same in achieved in an induction motor.
 I would suggest the switches move the waveform every 20ms (50Hz) 16ms (60Hz) and PWM is applied to a series MOSFET supply the DC rail. The PWM should produce a half sine and is synced to the start of the 20ms period. This will provide amplitude variation of the wave form (sine) from 0V to DC rail max. Every 20ms the whole waveform moves on. The relays or MOSFET switches would only be swiching at a low rate. The PWM is filtered to produce an unbroken half sine. Therefore a pulsating and traveling wave is produced. Not the missing pistons but the missing piston rings.


L192

Nice thought.  Maybe? 
How would you recover the field with your idea?  The DC rail is your recovery, wouldn't that affect your filtering?  How would you keep voltage constant?
There is room for improvement for sure.

Jerdee

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Offline r2fpl

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I don’t see PWM on each stator coil as the answer, you do not want to shut off the field in rotation. 

You can control the power of the H bridge through PWM. Do you have other reasons ?

Offline listener192

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You can control the power of the H bridge through PWM. Do you have other reasons ?


No I think are several methods to accomplish this. You may be able to use the bridge enable lines .I was thinking of a single switch between the cap bank and the boards. The supply caps on each board acting as a filter with external diodes recovering to the cap bank. Needs some thought.
Isolate the switch with diode to ensure no recovery back through the MOSFET body diode.

L192

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Offline T-1000

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You can control the power of the H bridge through PWM. Do you have other reasons ?
The answer is in where the strongest position of each magnet pole is when you introduce paralel same pole magnets. With single magnet it is middle of the magnet diameter. With 2 magnets is on junction position between magnets. Same happen with coils. As soon you do that there is "movement" of magnetic pole. And if you point magnetic pole towards core of the coil it is not same when magnetic pole is matching middle of the coil core and where it "moves" a bit the the side. With air core coils it is also same relative position to the coil wire. If the magnetic field movement happen to cross wire and also is in middle of change polarity from one to another there is induction in the wire. This is required for power generation.
If you just weaken or strengthen the magnetic field density in PWM the resulting change of flux is like in any transformer only.

Offline konehead

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Hi all
From my experience rotating permanent magnets sweeping past  coils show very strong magnetic force at the leading edge ( front) and at the magnets trailing edge ( back)
This is where the power is ....at the edges of the magnet.
Also there is no power produced at all if the coil does not have resistive load....and now Lenz law appears too, and it now might take 8 or 10 times more power to be rotating the magnet past than what the coil produces in power...depends on the resistive load a lot. And Airgap and magnet strength size and speed of rotation decide how bad Lenz law braking effect will be.
One way to prevent Lenz law is don't apply direct resistive load to coils instead fill caps-only then have 2nd stage where only caps hit the load for power. Cap size and resistance of load important plus frequency and speed of filling and discharging caps is important
Another way to prevent Lenz law is to not rotate the permanent magnets but rotate a field of electromagnets which is the dz generator more or less.
Hope.some.of this helps a little bit in thinking DZ generator how it works how to simulate sweeping permanent magnets electronically.
One other thing it is possible to chop narrow pulses of the generator coils and fill caps at sinewave peaks
....why fill caps at sinewave decension period... caps will not fill up anymore than what is at peak...
Also the coil can be briefly shorted at peak with fwbr ac side across coil and  the dc side of fwbr filling caps....now caps fill much faster and will go x20 or x50 more voltage
...release caps to load by themselves in two stage type output



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Offline pmgr

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No I think are several methods to accomplish this. You may be able to use the bridge enable lines .I was thinking of a single switch between the cap bank and the boards. The supply caps on each board acting as a filter with external diodes recovering to the cap bank. Needs some thought.
Isolate the switch with diode to ensure no recovery back through the MOSFET body diode.

L192
You can use two additional discreet MOSFETs (one on high side input and one on low side ground connection) with the body diode in reverse direction. So on high side the drain of one of these FETs would be connected to all the drains (Vdd inputs) of the high side H-bridges. On the low side the source of the other FET would be connected to all the sources of the low side H-bridges (GND/sense connection). In that way you have two body diodes in reverse all the time which will prevent any recovery through the body diodes.

PmgR

Offline listener192

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You can use two additional discreet MOSFETs (one on high side input and one on low side ground connection) with the body diode in reverse direction. So on high side the drain of one of these FETs would be connected to all the drains (Vdd inputs) of the high side H-bridges. On the low side the source of the other FET would be connected to all the sources of the low side H-bridges (GND/sense connection). In that way you have two body diodes in reverse all the time which will prevent any recovery through the body diodes.

PmgR


Yes that would work.


Generally.. everybody has different ideas but they should address the fact that Pierre produced a 60Hz sine. He did not do this by switching relays at a high rate as we know this is not possible, so think on how did he accomplish this. I have suggested one way so can anybody think of another?


L192

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Offline pmgr

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Another way to get to 60Hz:

Pierre's switching frequency of each relay is about 3.75Hz. Consider mixing this signal with itself, it will generate sum and difference frequencies, or 0Hz (DC) and 7.5Hz. Repeat this and eventually you get up to 60Hz: 7.5Hz signal mixed with itself gives 15Hz signal, mix that with itself and it will give 30Hz, mix that with itself and it will give 60Hz (16th harmonic of 3.75Hz)

Now you are thinking what is doing the mixing? Well, read this link:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/how-to-multiply-RF-signals-without-a-multiplier-the-switching-mixer/

and you will find out that the switches (and all their harmonics) are doing the mixing.

PmgR


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Offline pedro1

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Hi all
From my experience rotating permanent magnets sweeping past  coils show very strong magnetic force at the leading edge ( front) and at the magnets trailing edge ( back)
This is where the power is ....at the edges of the magnet.
Also there is no power produced at all if the coil does not have resistive load....and now Lenz law appears too, and it now might take 8 or 10 times more power to be rotating the magnet past than what the coil produces in power...depends on the resistive load a lot. And Airgap and magnet strength size and speed of rotation decide how bad Lenz law braking effect will be.
One way to prevent Lenz law is don't apply direct resistive load to coils instead fill caps-only then have 2nd stage where only caps hit the load for power. Cap size and resistance of load important plus frequency and speed of filling and discharging caps is important
Another way to prevent Lenz law is to not rotate the permanent magnets but rotate a field of electromagnets which is the dz generator more or less.
Hope.some.of this helps a little bit in thinking DZ generator how it works how to simulate sweeping permanent magnets electronically.
One other thing it is possible to chop narrow pulses of the generator coils and fill caps at sinewave peaks
....why fill caps at sinewave decension period... caps will not fill up anymore than what is at peak...
Also the coil can be briefly shorted at peak with fwbr ac side across coil and  the dc side of fwbr filling caps....now caps fill much faster and will go x20 or x50 more voltage
...release caps to load by themselves in two stage type output

Bravo konehead tu a vue juste tout est la il suffit seulement de répliquer ce que tu mentionne  et ce n'est pas si évident à faire mais c'est fesable  la preuve est mon premier prototype qui a fonctionner momentanément avant de bruler plusieur relais mais il a fonctionner il suffit de répliquer ce que tu mentionne de façon plus efficace que le premier dz et surtout de façon à ce qu'il puisse résister à long terme et Bingo le tour va être jouer après cela le plus dure va arriver c'est à dire de se battre avec les multinational et les gouvernement qui n'aimerons vraiment pas la perspective de perdre le monopole de l'énergie vous savez sans doute que l'économie mondial est baser sur l'énergie alors j'ai un peut peure de voir les conséquence que cela peut  engendrée mais je sait que une telle invention pourras aussi avoir de bon côté élimination de la pollution, central nucléaire, automobile ,du courant pour chaque maison ,aérospatial etc en fait seul l'avenir nous dira ce qui attend le dz générateur.                                                    Pierre c.

En. Congratulations konehead, you've just visualized everything!  only need to replicate what you mention and it's not so easy to do but it's doable.  The proof is my first prototype that ran momentarily before burning several relays but it to worked.  Just replicate what you mention in a more efficient way than my first dz. Especially so that it can withstand long run times and Bingo you'll have it.  After that, the hardest thing that will happen is to fight the multinationals and governments who really won't  like the prospective of losing the energy monopoly.  You probably know that the global economy is based on energy.  So I fear a little in seeing the consequences this can create but I know that such an invention has a good side, like eliminating pollution, electric nuclear reactors, petrol cars, the electrical grid, wind generators etc.  In fact, only the future will tell what awaits the DZ generator.        Pierre c.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 03:11:44 AM by gotoluc »

Offline Dog-One

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Doug,

How many people here recognize the significance of connecting a loaded full-wave bridge rectifier to an energized (magnetically induced) coil?

When you do this, you change the inductance, but not at the frequency subjected to the inductor, instead at twice the frequency.  And not only that particular inductor, but the ones in proximity to it too.  Mean anything yet?

If not, study parametric resonance.

Then look at some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgZNd8JA5dQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j860XSP2fU

There be diodes in them there hills...

Offline pmgr

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Doug,

How many people here recognize the significance of connecting a loaded full-wave bridge rectifier to an energized (magnetically induced) coil?

When you do this, you change the inductance, but not at the frequency subjected to the inductor, instead at twice the frequency.  And not only that particular inductor, but the ones in proximity to it too.  Mean anything yet?

If not, study parametric resonance.

Then look at some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgZNd8JA5dQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j860XSP2fU

There be diodes in them there hills...
Dog-One,

I am well aware of parametric oscillation. You can look at some of my older posts a few years back. In this particular thread I have mentioned many times that inductance is governed by d(LI)/dt (and not by LdI/dt) and that a power source can be obtained when the inductance L is varied over time.

Why don't you explain how the diodes play into this setup (of course besides the well-known fact that a FWB generates a half wave with double the frequency after rectification with the FWB, assuming no cap).

PmgR

Offline Dog-One

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pmgr,

You're probably the one that first turned me on to Dr. Butikov's work.  So I did some testing and yes, there's power gain to be had using his mechanism.  Not sure yet it's exponential gain per cycle, but certainly enough to cover losses if implemented properly.  I have more testing still yet to do, but what I've learned so far is that you can indeed fight active switching until you arrive at something pretty sophisticated as Paul Babcock has done, or do things another way, a more simple way, like using a FWBR.  Let it do the critical timing needed for parametric resonance while you focus on setting up the correct base resonance.

What it all boils down to is this:  There may be more than one way to achieve OverUnity, but whatever solution one picks, adding parametric resonance to the design is bound to be beneficial; maybe even compulsory.  So we need to look at how this phenomena can be implemented or how it can be manifested in this particular DZ Gen.

What I'm seeing with the DZ Gen are conditions where multiple coils are active and these coils are in close proximity while being active.  Every coil has some self resonant frequency due to the factor it's more than a pure inductor, it has internal capacitance as well.  What this means is every coil is a self contained LC tank circuit or resonator.  What we know about first order parametric resonance is that a change in inductance at peak amplitude followed by a restoring change back to normal at the zero crossing, twice per cycle, it going to setup the conditions where an amplitude gain is possible.  In the DZ Gen we are by design trying to push/pull a magnetic field around a series of coils in a loop with the goal of simulating a rotating magnetic field.   But something else is going on here we aren't paying close attention to.  These coils are resonators.  Yes, we are using relatively low frequencies for switching them on and off, but each coil clearly rings when we open the switch that energized it.  The scope-shots are all through this thread to prove it.  So then we try to capture this "recovery" energy and recirculate it.  And how do we do that?  We rectify it.  In the process of rectifying this switch-open recovery we do something else, most are completely unaware of.  We induce a harmonic back into the coil.  This harmonic just happens to be the exact harmonic necessary for setting up the conditions for parametric resonance, or I should say, it can be.

Suppose when we switch off, we actually switch over to a FWBR whose output is shorted.  This would create the maximum effect of changing the coil's inductance inline with the parametric conditions.  We don't have to do this though.  We have some choices here.  We can connect the output of the FWBR to the power rail or to a resistor, but when we do this, we create a phase change in the harmonic we induce back into the coil.  This video will describe what I mean.  This phase change can be all over the map; in fact it can be exactly backwards of what is needed for a parametric resonance gain, making it an actual loss in the system.  Yes, you an do this, you can use parametric dampening to suck energy right out of the system.  So what we need to do is find the proper component to connect to the FWBR, so that the phase is exactly as needed to obtain the full capability of parametric resonance and get the most gain from the coils as possible while we switch them around the stator core.  We also need to capture any gains we can get and keep them in the system, either by directly strengthening the magnetic field, or by strengthening the energy available in the power rail so that it can be switched back into the system.  It's these gains we use to power the load.  Within the system itself we want consumption, because the gains are proportional to the energy being pushed around within the system--the more energy sloshing around, the higher the gains.

Unfortunately, I don't have a working system to demonstrate, so it's likely many of my words will blow away in the wind.  What I do have is a direction and some supported mechanisms to get there.  Hopefully soon I'll have some techniques figured out that will guide one to the solution.  In the meantime, everyone keep up the great work and if something begins to look too complex, build a small test case on your bench and poke at it until you understand it.  Then you can move on to bigger and better things.

 

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