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Author Topic: Pierre's 170W in 1600W out Looped Very impressive Build continued & moderated  (Read 149284 times)

Offline FixedSys

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Doesn't look like attraction to me.
Anyhow I took the PM's out of my rotor as they caused distortion to the waveform.
L192

I don't see attraction either. Just see that it's wound as wide as possible and as snug as possible.

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Offline forest

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I can see white wire wobble a bit  :P

Offline listener192

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I did not see this.

Although 10A pulses were being returned to the cap bank via the recovery diodes, most of the current to drive the relays was coming from the line supply. So the resistor stayed cold throughout operation. The voltage on the cap bank did not elevate much above the DC supply on the 400V 150uF cap. I just could not clock the relays fast enough to achieve a higher output.
Regards
L192
So actually what I was seeing was not recovery but the 10A pulses were just the lower resistance path through the recovery diodes to recharge the caps from the DC supply, as PmgR explained.

With the half bridges you can see there is very little recovery current back into the cap bank. This is not surprising as no coils really turn off.

Even the last coil that has a current reversal during the progression of the waveform does not develop any  recovery current, contrary to what some have speculated.

The only time you do see recovery current is when all coils are turned off (assuming you allow that in the control code).
L192

 

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Offline listener192

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It is not easy to repeat the first time because you have to adjust.
You must find the answer that you are missing in what you did. It is not easy to understand immediately. "Think straight and you will find". I agree with these words. It is a cliché but it is. Do not look for mA search A. The diodes have two functions I think that you already know. When the effect appears, they come to life. Everything will be the same.

It's hard to think about it with what you have on the table because there is too much going on there. Even I do not know how to do it right now. You need a lot of work to continue joining the whole.
I apologize for not showing you the video, but if I showed you, you would know what to do. Do not take offense at me.
It's good that you write about what you do. Maybe you will come by yourself and maybe someone will tell you more. Jardee says that maybe a few people already know. Possible. Certainly there are those who do not write and do.

If you do not find it yourself, Pierre has promised us that he will show and say how it works and how to do it. If more people would be interested in this, it would be stated.


Lenz, I do not think so.

So by now you should be able to show some O.U. results, without showing the specific setup, hence keeping the secret you have discovered.
L192

Offline listener192

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What is this wire?
L192

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Offline listener192

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Thanks :)
Here is another video demo focused on the coil return (collapsing field & collecting diodes) which many have been wondering how much power is actually returned from the coils discharges.
I can confirm at the low frequency Pierre was working at, it looks to be less then 10%. So if the diodes return is a big part of the effect we are not getting much from our low inductance 35 turns coils at low frequencies. However, the higher the frequency the more efficient and around 400Hz the scopes (in vs out) current probes measure the coil return to be about 80% of the input power but the output is much less.

Link to video: https://youtu.be/IaWbGIsAT14
Hi Gotoluc,

My setup  is almost identical to yours except for more rotor coil turns. No cap on output.
The cap bank is being charged from the power supply and the half bridges are supplied by and recover to the cap bank. 

I show virtually no recovery current at any frequency and nor would I expect to, as no coil never really turns off.

At higher frequency, DC input current decreases and output voltage/current also decreases.
This is when running continuous overlap with no off period.   

L192

Offline d3x0r

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while we're asking about wires; whats THIS wire?
Video 1

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Offline listener192

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Hi Gotoluc,
See attached test running at 20Hz.

With no coils off, there is no actual recovery current i.e. the waveform stays above the yellow side marker (zero amps).
With all coils off at end of sequence note the current recovery as the spike goes below the zero amps marker.
Unless all the coils turn off in sequence there is not much overall recovery.
I am not sure how you got your result?
Regards
L192

Offline listener192

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while we're asking about wires; whats THIS wire?
Video 1
A good question however, the one I pointed out appears to be connected to the AC input to the FWBR, whereas the other mystery wire  is not clear at all.

L192

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Offline jerdee

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En:
Pierre,

You have mentioned current variation and intensity is needed across the coils.  Now that I am  beginning to understand coil groupings, the groupings allow more effeciency and less crossing of the fields.  They also allow OFF's to have coil return.  Again, this is ONLY a rotating magnetic field, nothing more.

I'm now thinking harder about "current variation".    I'm left thinking about combining multiple groupings of poles at specific times during rotation to increase inductance?  I'm still learning, but combining multiple groups of same poles together in a very specific way while in rotation allow for a variation in inductance.  It has to be at the right time to work, time it.  But this variation during rotation creates a pumping of inductance as the field rotates. 
Hope I am making sense and you are doing well.
Jerdee

Fr.
Pierre,


Vous avez mentionné la variation de courant et l'intensité est nécessaire à travers les bobines. Maintenant que je commence à comprendre les regroupements de bobines, les regroupements permettent plus d'efficacité et moins de franchissement des champs. Ils permettent également à OFF d'avoir le retour de la bobine. Encore une fois, ce n'est qu'un champ magnétique tournant, rien de plus.

Je pense maintenant plus à propos de la "variation actuelle". Je pense à combiner plusieurs groupes de pôles à des moments précis pendant la rotation pour augmenter l'inductance? Je suis encore en train d'apprendre, mais combiner plusieurs groupes de mêmes pôles de manière très spécifique en rotation permet une variation d'inductance. Il doit être au bon moment pour travailler, le temps. Mais cette variation pendant la rotation crée un pompage de l'inductance lorsque le champ tourne.

J'espère que j'ai du sens et que vous allez bien.
Jerdee


Offline pedro1

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Oui C'est un ensemble plusieurs facteurs et même moi je suis entrain d'apprendre à améliorer mon premier prototype le but étendant d'améliorer le champ magnétique en plus de tout le reste  et je le répète encore la rotation  n'est qu' un facteur c'est comme un recette de gâteau il faut avoir les bon ingrédient sinon ce ne seras pas bon

En.   
Yes, It's a set of several factors and even me I'm still learning to improve from my first prototype. The goal is extending to improve the magnetic field in addition to everything else.
 I repeat, the rotation is only one aspect.  Like a cake recipe, you have to have the right ingredient otherwise it will not be good
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:20:36 PM by gotoluc »

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Offline jerdee

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Merci Pierre.

Je comprends. Il y a beaucoup de petites modifications pour bien faire les choses. :)

Pour les autres...
J'espère que j'aide. Consultez l'image pour comprendre la rotation du pôle magnétique dans les groupes.

Jerdee
_____________________
Thanks Pierre.

I understand. It is a lot of little tweaks to get it right. :)

For others...
I hope I'm helping.  Review image to understand the magnetic pole rotation in groupings.

Jerdee

Offline T-1000

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Hi all,

Just a quick thought after some nights dream. Can that be done on large tape wound toroid?
For example:
1) 4 output coils + 8 driving coils next to each other as first layer and with the length of 20% from output coils.
2) 4 driving coils on the second layer and the starting offset of 20% from the begining of output coils and same length as on first layer.
3) 4 driving coils on the second layer and the starting offset of 40%  from the begining of output coils and same length as on first layer.
4) 4 driving coils on the second layer and the starting offset of 60%  from the begining of output coils and same length as on first layer.
5) 4 driving coils on the second layer and the starting offset of 80%  from the begining of output coils and same length as on first layer.

Each driving coil then can be connected in series for same offset from 4 coils.

Then start switching them in same way in 1-2-1 offset rotation setup.
And there can be more layers with lower offset distance if needed.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Cheers!

Offline pedro1

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Plus vos champ sont raprocher et plus vous avez des bobines il seras plus efficace pour simuler le déplacement d'une aimant  alors si vous champ sont trop distancer entre chaque pole vous n'aurez pas une bonne simulation d'un déplacement idéalement mais je sais que ce n'est pas possible ce serait de le déplacer de 1 à 2 degrés a la fois comme ça il y aurai un déplacement plus fluide.a coup de 20degrer cela ne seras pas aussi fluide et par conséquence pas aussi efficace.                                                          Pierre c.


En.  The closer your fields are and the more coils you have the more efficiently you will simulate the movement of a magnet.  So if your fields have too much distance between each pole you won't have a good simulation of an ideal displacement.  I know it's not possible to move 1 or 2 degrees at a time for a more fluid movement, so with 20 degree jumps it's far from fluid and therefore not as efficient.         

Pierre C.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 03:04:33 AM by gotoluc »

Offline konehead

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"Not possible 1 or 2 degrees" ??
Or "is possible" ???
Mistake or typo?

 

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