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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2213903 times)

hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #570 on: February 15, 2008, 10:37:14 AM »
Hi Hans,
do you know, if this pump can draw up the water from 12 Meters deep?

Also 36 Watts still needs a pretty big and expensive solar panel in clouds sky to really get 36 Watts
out constantly, especially in cloudy wintertime over here.

I just compared it, how much water I could draw from a street pump when I was a kid in the 1960s
how much physical body power I needed to draw this much water from the street pump.
You had to apply much more force than shown in this video by just giving it a little swing...

tinu

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #571 on: February 15, 2008, 01:49:13 PM »
Hi Hans,
do you know, if this pump can draw up the water from 12 Meters deep?
...

That?s interesting!
Assuming water density at 1000kg/m3 and g rounded at 10m/s2, it would take exactly 40W to pump 1200l/hr from 12m deep. That?s for an ideal pump, of course.

Several questions arise:
1. Is a normal adult person able to deliver 40-50W? I?d say it is, even with one finger in a clever setup, but not for prolonged times. 50W is, in common terms, lifting 5kg to 1m in every second. For how long one can keep up with this effort rate? It depends on physical constitution but this is actually testable and some figures might, in principle, be brought into discussion. On the other hand, classical pumps require a great deal of force (because of small displacement) to achieve the same power. Not everyone is able to apply force over a threshold (especially a child) but nonetheless maybe some are able to expend great amounts of energy (i.e. children running, playing etc. all day long) thus achieving a reasonable mean power over the considered time interval.

2. Before water starts to pour out, the pendulum has to be swing for some time until reaching the designed working amplitude. Consequently, when Milkovic stops pumping, a lot of energy which already exists in the moving pendulum will be lost. It is unfortunate that neither one of these stages is shown in the videos, although they are part of the process and the energy loss may be quite significant if one only needs a small amount of water (i.e. a bucket of 10-12l).

3. By taking two pumps, one of which being classical and one of Milkovic type, it would take maybe just a ?barbecue contest? to have a fair resolution on which is better. Not to mention that both pumps may be electrically driven and scientifically compared.  Lack of such simple tests raises question about OU aspect. Nonetheless, the Milkovic device may be useful in the view of 1 above.

Cheers,
Tinu

tinu

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #572 on: February 15, 2008, 01:50:12 PM »
deleted. double post.

Talmin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #573 on: February 15, 2008, 04:11:24 PM »
It is good comparation with the classic water pump.
I remember those pumps in my town too, it would be very hard to pump that after 2-3 minutes.

When we are talking about this, here are some videos showing how people pumping water in Africa even today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWFjKq8NVQY

http://www.fotosearch.com/DVA007/052-0353/

abassign

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #574 on: February 15, 2008, 06:55:07 PM »
Confirm that the power is 40W/s, but the the efficiency of a piston pomp should not overcome 50%. Moreover seem me strange 12 mt, a pomp as that in the film, it should not overcome the 7-8 meters of deep. There am hand pomps that can pump up to 10 mt, but they use other technologies.

Then it is probable that the deep meters are always 6-7 and the liters 1200/h. However the power should be of 40W (50% eff.). However the power should be of 40W (6 mt.) but non more 80W (12 mt.).

The power of 40-80W, developed with an only arm, for a man of average build is not small. Even if the hourly calories are bearable (600 -1200 kcal/h)

I am a lot of curiosity from this tape, more than from that of the light bulbs. It seems really an interesting device to be experimented.
However I don't understand because nobody has built an electric model to testing, in serious way, the characteristics of the device.


hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #575 on: February 15, 2008, 07:24:05 PM »
Hi Hans,
do you know, if this pump can draw up the water from 12 Meters deep?
...

No pump can. The theoretical maximum to which a pump can "draw" water is a little over 10 m assuming a perfect vacuum. Because water pumps generally can only create a partial vacuum and because of friction losses the practical maximum height is around 8 meters, even at that height pumps are not very efficient. These figures are for sea level. In elevated areas the figures are correspondingly less.

I will explain the physics if anyone is interested.

Hans von Lieven



hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #576 on: February 15, 2008, 07:35:52 PM »


That?s interesting!
Assuming water density at 1000kg/m3 and g rounded at 10m/s2, it would take exactly 40W to pump 1200l/hr from 12m deep. That?s for an ideal pump, of course.

Several questions arise:
1. Is a normal adult person able to deliver 40-50W? I?d say it is, even with one finger in a clever setup, but not for prolonged times. 50W is, in common terms, lifting 5kg to 1m in every second. For how long one can keep up with this effort rate? It depends on physical constitution but this is actually testable and some figures might, in principle, be brought into discussion. On the other hand, classical pumps require a great deal of force (because of small displacement) to achieve the same power. Not everyone is able to apply force over a threshold (especially a child) but nonetheless maybe some are able to expend great amounts of energy (i.e. children running, playing etc. all day long) thus achieving a reasonable mean power over the considered time interval.



Hi Tini,
many thanks for your calculation.

You can already see from the video that the guy swinging the pendulum
is not using 50 Watts of human power..
In my opinion he is only using at maximum maybe 1 Watt of human power to push the pendulum,
if you compare lifting a 5 Kg weight to 1 Meter height in every second..
That would made him very tired very much faster...

So I would say that pump shows already at least an overunity factor of 5 !

Also it is not well built and shakes too much, which still lowers
the efficiency.
If the stand would have been build more solid,
so that it can not rock back and forth, the efficiency would be even higher...


Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Did you ever peddle on a bike that was connected to an electrical  generator with a light bulb
and saw how hard you have to peddle to generate 50 or 100 Watts ?
Almost impossible to do this longer than 10 to 20 seconds !

hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #577 on: February 15, 2008, 07:53:19 PM »
Hi Hans,
do you know, if this pump can draw up the water from 12 Meters deep?
...

No pump can. The theoretical maximum to which a pump can "draw" water is a little over 10 m assuming a perfect vacuum. Because water pumps generally can only create a partial vacuum and because of friction losses the practical maximum height is around 8 meters, even at that height pumps are not very efficient. These figures are for sea level. In elevated areas the figures are correspondingly less.

I will explain the physics if anyone is interested.

Hans von Lieven




Okay, I see, what you mean, because of the normal air pressure,
so these pumps are laid into the 12 Meter deep water directly and pump the 12 Meters up then..
But then they consume probably more power, if you have 12 Meters to overcome.

At least I am convinced now that the shown Milkovic pump has at least an overunity
factor of 5.

shruggedatlas

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #578 on: February 15, 2008, 08:28:24 PM »
At least I am convinced now that the shown Milkovic pump has at least an overunity
factor of 5.

I think the Milkovic pump clearly aids the individual by providing a mechanical advantage, allowing a person to apply a smaller force over a longer period of time, making the job less strenuous.  Are you sure about the overunity part?

If it is truly 5 times overunity, it should be a trivial matter to set it up to pump water into a container above itself, and then use the power of that water as it falls to run itself.  And this has never been shown.

hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #579 on: February 15, 2008, 08:47:06 PM »
Well, I am pretty sure from this video.
It does not need much energy to start the
pendulum to swing and does not need much power to
keep it swinging...

Definately overunity.

hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #580 on: February 15, 2008, 09:42:34 PM »
I am sorry to have to rain on your parade Stefan, but it would appear someone is telling a few lies in relation to this device.

Below you will find some pictures of the pump he uses in his device which I have grabbed off the video.

The actual pump that is being used is an off the shelf item that had the pump handle removed so it could be adapted to his mechanism. The arm with the fulcrum that once held the pump handle is clearly visible in the detail top right. These type of pumps are all over the third world. The United Nations and various charitable organisations have installed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of them in Africa India and so forth. I have seen, handled and repaired a number of them when I was working in those parts of the world.

There is no way a pump like this can bring up water from 12 meters deep. If you can get it to work at a depth of 5 meters you are doing well.

1200 liters per hour is 20 liters per minute, the equivalent of two standard buckets of water. There is no way a pump of this nature can do this, maybe half that but no more. Have a look in the pictures how thin the stream really is. You need a stream of water a lot better than that to fill even one bucket in one minute. Try it at home if you don't believe me.

This is NOT an independent replication by Miroslav Zupkov as claimed. The device was built for Milkovic who has been demonstrating it since 2002 at least. Miroslav Zupkov is Milkovic's offsider. If you watch some of his other movies you can see Milkovic introducing him as his associate.

At a 5 meter depth with say 500 liters per hour it does not look all that good anymore, does it?

Hans von Lieven

tao

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #581 on: February 15, 2008, 09:43:48 PM »
Concerning actual electrical overunity, Milkovic did the test using the hand flashlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHln0xczRk8

He showed that using only one of the squeeze flashlights and moving the pendulum with it was rather easy to do, and that on the other end 9 squeeze flashlights where being lit up.

The above video with the flashlights and the video with the pump that you all have been talking about certainly look like overunity...

I know it might be hard to consider a strictly mechanical OU device, as it was/is for me, but it seems it might now be in our midst.

Time will most certainly tell...

abassign

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #582 on: February 15, 2008, 10:53:43 PM »
@hansvonlieven

When I have seen the tape, a few months ago, also I thought it as you, but there are some points by to clarify:
An electric pomp varies water's quantity lifted in function of the depth. Before affirming what you tell, is good to look well at the diagrams with which every pomps is furnished.

For example:
http://www.lgpc.com/ProductFiles/SpecSheets/995117.pdf

This pump at 6 mt. flow 1.800 lt/h with 380 W of power!

If the Milkovic pump flow only 600 lt/h (is possible to think when look the film) end the meters are 6 (may be...) the equivalent electric pump power shuld be 100-120W...

If you observe the tape you will see that the pomp is operated by a finger with the ample movement of the arm, therefore the power engraved to the pendulum should not be small.
We try to calculate it:
1 mt * 2 kg of pressure for the 50% of the application time do around 20 J (20W/s)
If you want to try, tries to move a weight of 2 Kg, with an arm for 1 mt in gym apparatus and you understand how much work him test. Not only, but the structure that sustains the apparatus seems rather underdimension, therefore the efforts applied to it are not small, even if of harmonic nature. To pump the water with a similar pomp is a non small effort, that doesn't seem to be present from the tape, you notice that it uses only a finger, therefore you cannot push, in continuous way, for more than some kg.

Now, let watch the the following fact:

If you try to put in oscillation the pendulum, by lifting and lowering the arm, you will notice that the pendulum doesn't oscillate, If it oscillate is because the junction has some attrition.
When the pendulum is oscillating, this makes to move the arm. Then this apparatus seems a non reversing machine!




hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #583 on: February 15, 2008, 11:10:42 PM »

We try to calculate it:
1 mt * 2 kg of pressure for the 50% of the application time do around 20 J (20W/s)
If you want to try, tries to move a weight of 2 Kg, with an arm for 1 mt in gym apparatus and you understand how much work him test.


He is not applying 2KG of pressure 1 Meter long.
He is just giving it a small tip each swing,
then the pendulum swings from itsself on.
So your figure of power is not correct.

Let us just say 2 Kg push for 10 cms,
so via the formular:
mxgxh= Energy
you get 2 Kg x 10 x 0.1= 2 Joules,
now devide this by about 2 for half a second is the force applied,
so you just get 1 Watts of input power
which looks fitting,if you look at his face and see, he is not sweating to
push the pendulum...

I guess with all the mechanical friction involved, also if he is only
pumping it up 5 Meters as Hans said, he is still in overunity mode...

tinu

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #584 on: February 16, 2008, 12:27:48 AM »
@abassign,

Excellent photo capture!
It proves many points:
1. Look at his finger and notice how much it is back-curved. Try it with yours. You?ll se the force is substantial. He pushes hard.
2. Look at his shoulder and notice how much it is raised. Man is again pushing hard.
3. Look at the red weight. It may easily have 30kg. Look at the height it swings (it?s easy by taking the red lever as reference and compare the vertical distance with the length of his arms). It may swing for 35-40cm on vertical (pendulum radius). Do the math and you?ll see that the weight in its highest position stores maybe close to 100J. That?s quite a significant energy stored there and it came from a person that imparted it BEFORE the camera was turned on. It can probably be done with 1W if bearings are good enough but it will take 100s if no losses at all.
4. If he pushes with his finger with a pressure of only 2kg over the whole arc length, which is pi*r (about 1m, I confirm it hereby), this is indeed 20W. I?ve put myself to test and I found that I could not sustain easily 5kg lifting with one finger for 3minutes (the length of the video), that being roughly 50W. But if I let the finger rest (i.e. during the back swing) it is quite easy. Not comfortable though (hence the finger curvature and the raised shoulder) but doable.
5. Remember that even if not continuously pushed, the pendulum will keep swinging and the system will continue to work for some time due to stored energy.
6. Isn?t it interesting that the movie is not a continuous shooting but it?s made of short added sequences? I?d love to see the unedited version with the pendulum started from rest state followed by continuous pumping for several minutes and the water collected to appreciate its volume?

Cheers,
Tinu