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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2213726 times)

shruggedatlas

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #465 on: July 11, 2007, 02:13:51 AM »
Untill you've built it and tested it yourself you'll probably never believe it. Thank god there are researchers here willing to do the job since you would never bother. So please try not to belittle others hard work. Real losers don't even attempt.

I too am a skeptic but even in simulations I've seen some merit in this device.

~Dingus Mungus

I agree that it is noble to dedicate your time to something worthwhile, and what could be more worthwhile than a discovery leading to free energy for the entire world to use?  Such a discovery would probably end poverty and generally improve the lives of everyone.

However, I do believe that this noble task must be tempered by some common sense.  The device we have here simply demonstrates mechanical advantage.  I have no idea why this thread was started under the topic of "12 times more output than input."  Surely the OP is intelligent enough to know the difference between force and energy.  Without that distinction, we must include every lever, screw, pulley, inclined plane as an OU device!

Maybe an OU device is possible, maybe it is not.  What is clear is that pendulums and levers are not the answer, so maybe we should stop beating our heads against that particular wall.  This is stuff we learn in middle school science class.

hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #466 on: July 11, 2007, 04:55:08 AM »
http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm

Why don?t the skeptics read the papers from the professors doing the calculations ??


shruggedatlas

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #468 on: July 11, 2007, 05:46:18 AM »
http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm

Why don?t the skeptics read the papers from the professors doing the calculations ??

Why do you call this a paper from a professor?  The page clearly states that it was adopted from Milkovic's own website.  The inventors own claims cannot be used to validate the invention.

The second link you provide, the pdf document, is directly from Milkovic's website.

Looking at the water pump example, I do not see anything out of the ordinary.  Instead of pumping, the operator needs to keep pushing the pendulum (much like Milkovic, in his own video, needs to keep pushing the pendulum while his device is lighting the flashlight).  It is easier to push the pendulum, due to the mechanical advantage involved, but there is no energy gain here.

shruggedatlas

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #469 on: July 11, 2007, 05:51:00 AM »
Additionally, a couple people have posted in this thread that they have built this device themselves.  (It is a fairly simple contraption, after all.)  Neither noticed any energy gain.  Why are you convinced that there is any gain at all, much less 9 to 1 or 12 to 1 or whatever is claimed.  With a 12 to 1 gain, the pendulum should never stop!  12 to 1 is huge.  Why isn't this thing powering Europe yet?

snowblind

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #470 on: July 11, 2007, 08:23:18 AM »
Hi

first post.

This is the way I see the pendulum machine works:

-----Why we need input energy:

Imagine you have a "perfect" pendulum swinging in a vacum with no friction, on perfect bearings etc..  (impossible but just for this example). It would swing forever without ever losing its speed/slowing down/stopping, Thus requiring no input energy to keep going.

Because we dont have a perfect pendulum, we have to input energy to make up for friction, bearing resistance etc.. that the pendilum encounters while swinging. Note that this energy is not to swing the pendulum, but to keep it swinging because of the resistance it encounters. The pendulum keeps swinging via the force of gravity.

While swinging, the mechanical part of this machine (other end) taps up and down, with a force equal to the weight of the pendilum (say 100kg). this weight can be used to create whatever (power a generator etc..).

---Why the other end lifts up:

When the pendulum is on the outside/top of a swing, it has lost all its energy, and gravity starts to pull it down. At this point it is weightlessto the other end (which taps up and down),  and the other end is in the down state.

Gravity works on the pendulum and pulls it down, gaining momentum/force whatever.

When it is at the center/bottom of its swing it has a downwards force equal to, or more than, its own weight, and the other end of the machine is now lighter and lifts up.

The pendulum then swings up and ends up at the start again.

---The other bit:

The next thing we have to ask is: does the up down motion added to the pendulum take/use some of the swing force acting on the pendulum? If it does, then the system is not over unity, as we have to put this energy back in with the input energy (i.e. input energy is not just factoring friction, but also the up down motion).

If it doesnt, then the system is overunity. Note that while the pendulum has the most force and pulls the other end up, as it swings along, the other end is pulled down by gravity and 'gives' energy back to the pendulum. So we could just have to add some more input energy for the resistance of friction/bearings etc..

---

Thats just my theory after a few hours on the peswiki and then finding this thread (e.g. reading things like the machie is most efficient when both ends are the same weight. I only flicked through 15 or so pages of this thread. Im going to build a small model with some chopsticks, paperclips, tape and rocks and see what happens.

Greeting from Japan

hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #471 on: July 11, 2007, 08:35:36 AM »
@shruggedatlas:


http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Misljenje%204%20-%20Matematicka%20analiza%20-%20Tosic.pdf

To all the skeptics,
this PDF file was written by:
Akademik Professor  Dr. Bratislav To?ic

Please point out here if you find some mathematical errors in it.
Otherwise don?t come here and always give us the same lame skeptical views...PLEASSSSEEEE !


There are replications under way right now that try to close the loop.

WhiteFalcon

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #472 on: July 11, 2007, 02:54:22 PM »
I'm currently gathering parts to replicate this machine, I bought an old bike for $5...

I have two ideas to improve the machine...

1) Make the pendulum to swing perpendicular to the lever, so the same force would be applied to the lever when the pendulum swing from right to left than from left to right.  If you look carefully at Milkovic's machines, you may notice that the force is different when the pendulum swing from front to back than from back to front...

2) What if I make both end of the lever to be a hammer AND carrying a pendulum.  When pendulum A is a Bottom Dead Center, pendulum B would be at Top Dead Swing.  Will I gain more amplitude on the lever?  Since both ends of the lever now have a variable mass...  This I don't know... I'll try to see...

WF

shruggedatlas

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #473 on: July 11, 2007, 03:31:52 PM »
@shruggedatlas:


http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Misljenje%204%20-%20Matematicka%20analiza%20-%20Tosic.pdf

To all the skeptics,
this PDF file was written by:
Akademik Professor  Dr. Bratislav To?ic

Please point out here if you find some mathematical errors in it.
Otherwise don?t come here and always give us the same lame skeptical views...PLEASSSSEEEE !


There are replications under way right now that try to close the loop.

I will admit that I have no idea what that paper says, but I sincerely doubt it says there is a 12 to 1 energy gain.  I believe a 12 to 1 mechanical advantage, perhaps with the combination of the lever and the pendulum, but not a 12 to 1 energy gain.

As far as closing the loop - there is no way to make a pendulum create energy, and there is no way to make a lever create energy.  They both only give out what energy was put into them.  The lever allows a small force to lift a relatively heavy object, but at the cost of having to exert the small force over a longer distance than the heavy object actually lifts.  A pendulum doles out its energy slowly (via friction and air resistance) over the duration of its swing, but it cannot give out any more energy than what was originally exerted into lifting the pendulum in the first place.  There is nothing new here.  If someone was to close the loop on this, then it would mean that see-saws and pendulums never stop, but accelerate on their own (at a 12 to 1 energy gain).  But this is now how things work in this universe.

Am I missing something?  Is there really any more to this machine than a lever and a pendulum?

shruggedatlas

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #474 on: July 11, 2007, 03:52:50 PM »


The next thing we have to ask is: does the up down motion added to the pendulum take/use some of the swing force acting on the pendulum? If it does, then the system is not over unity, as we have to put this energy back in with the input energy (i.e. input energy is not just factoring friction, but also the up down motion).

If it doesnt, then the system is overunity. Note that while the pendulum has the most force and pulls the other end up, as it swings along, the other end is pulled down by gravity and 'gives' energy back to the pendulum. So we could just have to add some more input energy for the resistance of friction/bearings etc..


You have thought about this and your analysis shows this!  It is easy to get confused discussing this device, because the lever affects the pendulum and vice versa.  But in the end, it is just a pendulum attached to one end of a see-saw.  Neither a pendulum nor a see-saw naturally accelerates, so there is not way to magically combine the two together and get an over-unity device.  In fact, any combination of the two can only decrease efficiency, because there are more parts in contact and therefore more friction.

bigface

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #475 on: July 12, 2007, 04:11:28 AM »
I still doubt that this machine is overunity.  If this machine is overunity then it would most likely be due to the swinging of the pendulum.  I don't see why the lever is necessary at all, it only makes it lose energy due to friction.  The lever does not contribute any more energy it just transfers it from one end to the other.  why not just have a pendulum on a string pulling on a load? that would make the system more efficient because it doesn't lose energy to friction from the lever. 

hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #476 on: July 12, 2007, 04:47:49 AM »
@bigface,
you did not understand the principle:

As the pendulum is at its highest point the force onto the leverarm is zero
and thus the other end of the leverarm behind the pivot point  gets more heavy.

When the pendulum is at its lowest point in its swing, it gets much more heavy,
also through its centrifugal force and this will make this leverarm
much more heavy now and it can lift up the other leverarm with much more force.

So you see, the pendulum is modulating the gravity which is working onto the
whole leverarm and thus can convert gravity field energy to mechanical output energy.

As the input power via pushing the pendulum is almost at 90 degrees to the gravity field,
so this does not interact with the gravity and thus it needs only low input power.

The more centrifugal force we have, which is a virtual force,
the higher will be the COP over one..


So it is basically a gravity modulation device with low input power and higher
output power, converting unbalanced gravity forces into real mechanical
output power.
Regards, Stefan.

ravengo2005

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #477 on: July 12, 2007, 01:52:39 PM »
If you need translation for any of this texts, I can help. I know serbian language.  :)

bigface

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #478 on: July 12, 2007, 03:36:39 PM »
hartiberlin, thanks for replying.  I do understand the principle behind this device.  My point was that the lever is pointless.  The driving force behind this device is the pendulum, if this device really did create energy it would be due to the swinging of the pendulum and not the movement of the lever.  The lever merely transfers downward force created by the pendulum into upward force of the other side.  This principle would be just as valid if you used a pulley system instead of a lever. 
              The lever contributes nothing in terms of energy.To suggest that this device is over unity is suggesting a pendulum is overunity.  i do not know whether a pendulum is or isn't but either way the lever does nothing of use in the system.  i think that the easiest way to verify this system is simply attach a pendulum to a spring scale. 
               it would still work the on the exact same principle as the lever/pendulum combo but it would be easier to measure.  The the lowest point of the swing it would have gravitational and centrifugal force pulling down on the spring.  At the highest point you would have essentially no force acting on the spring so it would go back up. So gravity would still be modulated as you say, just using a spring instead of a lever.  This would make it a lot easier to measure then adding an extra piece (lever) into the equation.  instead of having lever+pendulum+scale(to measure output) you can simply have scale+pendulum.
              i hope i made myself clear and i look forward to your response. 

helmut

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #479 on: July 12, 2007, 04:12:18 PM »
Hi Bigface

Please have a look to the first Movie from the Inventor.
He explains,what happens to the Oscilation and what happend on the other Side of the Lever.
You can not just ignore the part of the Resonanz.

helmut