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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 1655453 times)

Offline Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2130 on: January 06, 2014, 06:45:42 PM »
Double Pendulum Power - Method for Extracting Power from a Mechanical Oscillator

A Numerical Analysis using the Runge Kutta Method to Solve the Euler Lagrange Equation for a Double Pendulum with Mechanical Load

...From these simulations we conclude that it is possible to extract considerably more energy from a double pendulum system than is used to set the outer pendulum in motion initially. This is due to the fact that rotation of the outer pendulum creates what we might call artificial gravity, i.e. a constantly oscillating force acting as a torque on the fixed pivot.

The result is that by adding 8.5 W of input power we continuously generate about 60 W of output power. A COP of about 7.

http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Docs/Double-Pendulum-Power-AC-Power-from-a-Mechanical-Oscillator.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/146232946/Double-Pendulum-Power-AC-Power-from-a-Mechanical-Oscillator

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Offline Grimer

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2131 on: January 17, 2014, 05:02:13 PM »
To juan_86 and others that try to "measure" the two stage oscillator by using 2D physics simulation software:

I think the approach is completely flawed, because those programs only act by the standard laws of physics (newton), so of course no overunity
effect will show up.

Moreover, we live in a real world where at least some small friction is always present. So in order to extract useful energy, the system must overcome
this friction. So the only way to demonstrate clearly whether there is a real, practical overunity effect, is to build a real model of the machine and measure the outcome.
I find it hilarious that so many people still use physics simulation software and try to demonstrate if some machines (gravity wheels, etc)  show an overunity effect.
Of course it is easier and cheaper (basically free) to simulate those machines by using simulation software rather than building the real model.
But in case of overunity machines, we are  outside the conventional physics domain, and unfortunately classical-physics simulation software will miserably fail.
So start build your models and measure the data. The nature will not lie. Often small models will suffice because many processes in nature are repeatable at a smaller scale. If there is a gravity wheel design that works, then probably it works regardless whether it is 20cm  or 10metres in diameter.
The forces will of course be bigger but the effect should be reproducible on small scales models too.

Of course there are some exceptions, for example critical mass for atomic reactions etc, but I don't believe that overunity devices that do use gravity, inertia or centrifugal forces do have this critical mass (or size) requirements.


A very sensible post.


Well done.

Offline Grimer

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2132 on: January 17, 2014, 06:33:07 PM »
... Absolute simplicity in design and function comes from knowledge and understanding- not textbooks.
Absolutely.  8)

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2132 on: January 17, 2014, 06:33:07 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2133 on: January 22, 2014, 04:30:39 PM »
pendule milkovic (mauvaise configuration)
by freedericklane (YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4bNOUqKWgc

Dispositif sur le principe du pendule de MILKOVIC .Ces deux montages ne sont pas bon car le cycle de l'embiellage de la roue ne correspond pas au cycle du mouvement de va et vient de l'effet Milkovic qui n'est pas sinusoïdale.
Un bon moyen pour récupérer la force en mouvement rotatif est d'utiliser une "roue libre" à cliquet d'une roue de vélo par exemple.

Il est intéressant de constater l'échange d'énergie entre le pendule et la roue d'inertie dû à la désynchronisation des deux mouvements(rotation,pendule) qui sont indépendant.(on l'entend au bruit)

GOOGLE TRANSLATE TO ENGLISH:

Device on the principle of pendulum Milkovic. Both mounts are not good because the cycle of the crankshaft wheel does not match the cycle of movement back and forth of Milkovic effect is not sinusoidal.
A good way to get the strength to rotary motion is to use a "freewheel" ratchet wheel bike for example.

It is interesting that the energy exchange between the pendulum and the inertia due to the synchronization of the two movements (rotation, pendulum), which are independent wheel. (You can hear the sound)
Yep. You should pursue that ratchet idea because hiving off half the angular momentum to earth is the way to go.
In effect you are bringing the slingshot effect (gravity assist as NASA like to call it) sown to earth.


Offline PaoloGigli

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2134 on: January 23, 2014, 08:05:35 PM »
Quote
The result is that by adding 8.5 W of input power we continuously generate about 60 W of output power. A COP of about 7.

http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Docs/Double-Pendulum-Power-AC-Power-from-a-Mechanical-Oscillator.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/146232946/Double-Pendulum-Power-AC-Power-from-a-Mechanical-Oscillator


The results from quoted paper is mathematical model meaning that model could be good or wrong. Real world knows nothing about mathematics. We use mathematics to explain real world.
If we want to know something about some process we do experiments and measurements. Sometime very simple.
Suppose we want to make closer look in behavior of two stage mechanical oscillator (TSMO) by changing the load.

In the set we have TSMO and water pump. Inlet level of water is constant. Outlet level will be changed. We will not change any element of TSMO during experiment.
We will measure time for loading reservoir of constant volume at outlet level, number of swing and energy needed for maintaining constant swing of the pendulum.
Outlet level will rise one meter after every loading of outlet reservoir with constant volume (outlet pipe ends at upper - maximum - level of reservoir)
Equivalent of added energy will be a force and a time needed to maintain constant swing of the pendulum.
Force will be measured by tenzometric cell from cheep Chinese scale hooked to some Arduino with analog module.
Times will be measured by the same Arduino
Because energy will be added by hand, it is necessary to measure the angle of pendulum swing. This will do it some angle measurement device hooked to the Arduino.

Not so simple? I agree. We could survive without Arduino, force and angle measurement using only old good stopwatch and our sense for hand load of pendulum.
I am an engineer and I like to be precise as much as possible in given circumstances giving maximum insight. This is the reason for "extra" measurement  :)

When our experiment will end? When pendulum proceed to swing without pumping.
This means that energy needed for pumping is equal or greater than energy loaded by gravity and hand.
Even without really doing proposed experiment, one could conclude following:
  1. Gravity energy is constant because we do not change any element of TSMO
  2. Energy added by hand is finite and could not be greater than needed for constant swing

Other conclusion are up to you...

My conclusion is that participation of hand added energy will rise for every rise of outlet reservoir, simply because that this extra energy is equivalent of loss in the system TSMO & pump. Next conclusion is that time for every loading of outlet reservoir after rising the level will be longer and longer because more and more energy will be used to push water up at the expense of pump loading with water.

Further conclusion is that it is not possible to borrow some energy from pump side to replace hand added energy because this will be extra load (like rising the level of outlet reservoir) demanding more "hand" added energy. Lever is rigid body making both side mutual dependent.

The bottom line is that overunity is not possible with TSMO.

If you do not believe in my conclusions, do the experiments with Arduino measurement  8)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2134 on: January 23, 2014, 08:05:35 PM »
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Offline PaoloGigli

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2135 on: January 23, 2014, 08:50:29 PM »
According to video clips and simulations the movement of lever in system lever/pendulum is "peculiar".

Playing with pendulum I realize that vertical movement of pivot in a certain way could make a swing of pendulum constant. This means that moving of opposite side of a lever in a certain way could make a swing of pendulum constant. This is not happened because moving of pendulum side is not strictly vertical but circular adding horizontal force to pendulum.

Out there is a number of experimenters who could add pivot movement constrain to his construction making it move strictly up and down. This extra part will add some loss to machine but lever will swing more stable than without. This constrain will remove the need for moving limiters meaning that all energy in disposal could be used by working machine (pump) without wasting it by pushing limiters  :)

Further thinking in the direction leads me to the conclusion that ideal working machine will be one having working cycle which support proposed movement of pendulum pivot.

Which machine it could be?

Offline PaoloGigli

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2136 on: January 25, 2014, 03:53:10 PM »
Further thinking in the direction leads me to the conclusion that ideal working machine will be one having working cycle which support proposed movement of pendulum pivot.

Which machine it could be?

Suppose that we have found such a machine :D

It still does not mean that the system, TSMO & wonder machine, could work without adding energy
but then it would be necessary to add the least amount of energy to sustain endless work (if we need it) :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2136 on: January 25, 2014, 03:53:10 PM »
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Offline gdez

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2137 on: January 25, 2014, 07:47:46 PM »
@ Paologigli,
 Good observations, except that you can not use the lever end output  to manipulate the pivot point. The output from the lever end needs to push the pendulum only, at least from my observations. Otherwise you are not really isolating the pendulum from the lever( which is what milkovics theory is all about.) Milkovics idea is that the pendulum moves independent of the lever.
 I may not be seeing something that you are thinking, but if you show me a drawing of what you are thinking, I would be happy to give you some suggestions.
 I am in the process of building a new frame for a tsmo, and hopefully will have it completed soon.
 @all,
 While I am in the process of building my new model I would like to hear anybody's suggestions. I am working on an idea for  a water and/ or steam actuated device, but, all suggestions will be taken.
 Gdez
 

Offline PaoloGigli

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2138 on: January 25, 2014, 08:40:35 PM »
@ Paologigli,
 Good observations, except that you can not use the lever end output  to manipulate the pivot point. The output from the lever end needs to push the pendulum only, at least from my observations. Otherwise you are not really isolating the pendulum from the lever( which is what milkovics theory is all about.) Milkovics idea is that the pendulum moves independent of the lever.
 I may not be seeing something that you are thinking, but if you show me a drawing of what you are thinking, I would be happy to give you some suggestions.
 I am in the process of building a new frame for a tsmo, and hopefully will have it completed soon.

Maybe I was not clear enough or you misunderstand me. Manipulation of pivot point with lever is possible (without working machine, by hand, try :) ) but ONLY to understand the law of motion (extracted by measuring the movement of pivot, acceleration etc.) good enough to get a picture of possible working cycle in order to choose the working machine that best fits. Maybe no one, but with the one what is fits, the loss will bi minimal.

If you reread some of the previous posts, you'll find my stand point, but for sure, here :) : http://www.overunity.com/14225/two-stage-mechanical-oscillator-measurement-framework/ (there is no isolation of circular movement of pivot)

Consider isolation of circular movement of pendulum pivot... :)

Paolo

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2138 on: January 25, 2014, 08:40:35 PM »
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Offline PaoloGigli

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2139 on: January 31, 2014, 09:37:41 PM »
Some conversation from PM... of common interest...

Quote
1) By now, I've found that TSMO doesn't produce overunity. The reason is that its pivot point should move of a very few distance, or the pendulum reduces the oscillation very much and then it's necessary put too much energy for let it oscillate again.

If you translate your conclusion in common language, this means that your working side need more energy than pendulum could give and proceed to work smoothly. In other words, useful work of pendulum is small. Pendulum needs almost all energy for swinging and a fraction you could use for real work. This is the reason for heavy weight bob, then the "fraction" is greater. Sadly but truth...

Quote
And for having a very short movement of the pivot point you need a very bad ratio between the two arms.

I propose you a game
Use old tennis ball, ~75 cm of fishing line and 10 cm of welding wire. Put wire through ball and do the rest to make tennis ball with fishing line pendulum. If you play with it, you will realize that moving pivot (your fingers) up and down in curtain manner you could control the swing of pendulum. If this movement is greater, the swing is greater and opposite. Then make a lever from, lets say, no more then 1 meter of wooden plunk pivoting in the middle. Put pendulum in one side and try to make the same movement of pendulum like previous by moving by hand the opposite side of pendulum. I bet you could not or very hard. Then use some quadratic part of carton (10x10 cm) with hole in the middle. Put fishing line through this hole and hook to the lever again. Make carton to be stable bellow pivot but far enough to let lever move freely. Try to make again the same as by bare hand. I bet it is easier to control the swing. What is the morals of the game.
1. You could control the swing by moving the lever,
2. Vertical movement could be great,
3. Movement of a pivot (hole in the carton) is strictly vertical

The consequence of this game is following: We make pendulum to oscillate by vertical movement of pivot, we could use some machine, instead of our hand, to mimic the movement of our hand (in sense of a working cycle) and in that way support the swinging of a pendulum and then we could add to the pendulum some energy to do the work of such machine (in this situation we will have the least losses)

Quote
2) Using sensors, as you says, could be a good way for see if this system, in any ways, could work or not. But, have you ideas about any improvement of the system, such to really obtain overunity?

First, your question. TSMO is not capable to make overunity. I think I already told you why (or post in the forum). Because, for every full swing you have to recreate the initial conditions, ie. to put pendulum in starting position. After swing and returning in starting position, pendulum do not have the same high like in start and you have to add some quantity of energy to compensate this. In every swing! Does this looks you as good conditions for overunity?
  - Input energy is not a compensation solely but starting potential energy of a pendulum.
  - Compensation is a matter of loos and a fraction of work did it by some working machine.
  - TSMO have really bad efficiency.

And some improvements... As I already have propose, strictly vertical movement of pendulum pivot and also strictly vertical movement of working machine pivot (obvious) in order to minimize horizontal component of acceleration. Lever and pendulum needs smooth movements to achieve best transfer of energy (most efficient).

In other words, "12 times more output than input" claim by Milkovic group had arise from deep misunderstanding of two stage mechanical oscillator way of work. We have to ask ourselves, how come that free energy community spent so much time in investigating and experimenting without critical questioning of starting premise about what it is a real input energy in the system pendulum/lever? This is a serious question and needs proper answer.

Offline Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2140 on: February 03, 2014, 04:44:14 PM »
Something new from gdez100

two stage mechanical oscillator 2014 and other stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDj4kFWE4A8

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2140 on: February 03, 2014, 04:44:14 PM »
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Offline Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2141 on: February 03, 2014, 04:48:24 PM »
Some company from South Africa offering the pendulum pump
http://thegreenboyzenergy.com/human-powered-borehole-pump/

Offline Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2142 on: February 03, 2014, 04:55:32 PM »
It would be good if we could see something like this in our gardens and parks

Africa water pumping swing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG_OfuIY0RQ

Offline PaoloGigli

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2143 on: February 04, 2014, 12:49:51 AM »
Hello Merg,

Something new from gdez100

two stage mechanical oscillator 2014 and other stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDj4kFWE4A8

This link just documenting that some guy out there prepare himself to make some kind of pendulum contraption. There is no connection with what I emphasized in previous reply.

Quote
Some company from South Africa offering the pendulum pump
http://thegreenboyzenergy.com/human-powered-borehole-pump/

This pump is exactly the one represented in Milkovic`s group videos. Someone make a copy of this pump or VEMIRC (Milkovic group official name) sold it to company from South Africa. Here is one of a links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpgl7o_1QI

What to say. It is working. The water got out from the pump. But... It is a bad engineering. Look at the lever, 3.5:1, meaning what ever force you have at pendulum side at a pump side is only 3.5 part of it. When you see some spring at the pump side it is obvious a force is even less, not to mention added weight near the lever pivot (video clip).

Quote
It would be good if we could see something like this in our gardens and parks

Africa water pumping swing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG_OfuIY0RQ

Nice example of using pendulum (people swinging) for pumping water but also nice example of inefficiency of such system. Be patient and watch again from start. What quantity of water boy have got from pump (pumping hard) and what quantity they have got by swinging, it is more fun, I admit :)
For sake of fun, socializing and time consuming swinging is a good approach but old school pumping is more efficient :)

Merg, what your replays have with other people contributions here? You have added new links to videos, "scientific" papers and such things without any real evidence about "12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !" or anything else close to 1, not to mention overunity.

It is a shame for VEMIRC TSMO laboratory for not organize exact measuring of input/output characteristics so long time, especially for TSMO lab front-men Mr. Jovan Marjanović. His mass production of "scientific" papers show deep misunderstanding of basic principle of physics (pendulum, lever) in order to "explain" "overunity" of pendulum/lever  "behavior" in Milkovic TSMO. Mr. Jovan Marjanović have the highest academic rank in VEMIRC and his responsibility is the highest.

At least as expected from VEMIRC TSMO Lab is accurate measuring, not some contraption like in http://www.pendulum-lever.com/docs/Jovan_Marjanovic_Recommendations_for_Construction_and_Efficiency_Measuring.pdf page 17. Mr. Marjanović is M.Sc. in Electrical Engineering and should know the methods of measuring of required values for this purpose. If not, it is free to use my proposal for measuring framework presented here http://www.overunity.com/14225/two-stage-mechanical-oscillator-measurement-framework#.UvAfDUL3yHs. It is clear and repeatable. Mr. Marjanović is free to use other my proposals to improve behavior of pendulum/lever construction. It is free to contact me if he need further explanation (measurement framework is not worked out completely). But this will not happen, I suppose :)

Free energy community do not need any new links of any kind except accurate scientific measuring report of TSMO.

Paolo

Offline wings

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2144 on: February 04, 2014, 09:09:03 AM »
Hello Merg,

This link just documenting that some guy out there prepare himself to make some kind of pendulum contraption. There is no connection with what I emphasized in previous reply.

This pump is exactly the one represented in Milkovic`s group videos. Someone make a copy of this pump or VEMIRC (Milkovic group official name) sold it to company from South Africa. Here is one of a links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpgl7o_1QI

What to say. It is working. The water got out from the pump. But... It is a bad engineering. Look at the lever, 3.5:1, meaning what ever force you have at pendulum side at a pump side is only 3.5 part of it. When you see some spring at the pump side it is obvious a force is even less, not to mention added weight near the lever pivot (video clip).

Nice example of using pendulum (people swinging) for pumping water but also nice example of inefficiency of such system. Be patient and watch again from start. What quantity of water boy have got from pump (pumping hard) and what quantity they have got by swinging, it is more fun, I admit :)
For sake of fun, socializing and time consuming swinging is a good approach but old school pumping is more efficient :)

Merg, what your replays have with other people contributions here? You have added new links to videos, "scientific" papers and such things without any real evidence about "12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !" or anything else close to 1, not to mention overunity.

It is a shame for VEMIRC TSMO laboratory for not organize exact measuring of input/output characteristics so long time, especially for TSMO lab front-men Mr. Jovan Marjanović. His mass production of "scientific" papers show deep misunderstanding of basic principle of physics (pendulum, lever) in order to "explain" "overunity" of pendulum/lever  "behavior" in Milkovic TSMO. Mr. Jovan Marjanović have the highest academic rank in VEMIRC and his responsibility is the highest.

At least as expected from VEMIRC TSMO Lab is accurate measuring, not some contraption like in http://www.pendulum-lever.com/docs/Jovan_Marjanovic_Recommendations_for_Construction_and_Efficiency_Measuring.pdf page 17. Mr. Marjanović is M.Sc. in Electrical Engineering and should know the methods of measuring of required values for this purpose. If not, it is free to use my proposal for measuring framework presented here http://www.overunity.com/14225/two-stage-mechanical-oscillator-measurement-framework#.UvAfDUL3yHs. It is clear and repeatable. Mr. Marjanović is free to use other my proposals to improve behavior of pendulum/lever construction. It is free to contact me if he need further explanation (measurement framework is not worked out completely). But this will not happen, I suppose :)

Free energy community do not need any new links of any kind except accurate scientific measuring report of TSMO.

Paolo
Paolo here simulation pendulum and nonlinear study.
pendulum lab
http://www.elmer.unibas.ch/pendulum/lab.htm

http://www.elmer.unibas.ch/pendulum/parres.htm



 

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