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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2213369 times)

astroshima

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #825 on: December 20, 2008, 05:37:43 PM »
Just want again to illustrate how useful are measurements so I will borrow this quote for that purpose:

... Milkovic has already proven that his device is overunity. Don't you recall the hand-pumped flashlight demo? What could possibly be better proof than that??

That same apparatus and experiment could be used with measurements!
Video camera could capture whole experiment (one or several times repeated).

1. For output Energy measurement and calculation:
Wattmeter could measure output power on dynamo lamp(s).

2. For Input Energy measurement and calculation:
a) We need Paper with Ruler Grid behind pendulum for measuring pendulum heights (h or dh - depending on experiment and input energy calculation method: E=m*g*(h1-h2) or dE = m*g*dh).
b) When pendulum Fulcrum reach starting point (or maximum height) then Pendulum mass should be stroked or lifted in other direction - to go up instead of down so we could measure dh (height) before pendulum lose that input energy...
c)However if we do just one pendulum lift scenario and record it with camera (I believe) we could calculate that dh with formula dh = h1 - h2 so we do not need repeated pendulum strokes or lifting.

By the way (one digression):
1. As Physics learns us, Force integral formula used for dynamometer (with fish scale) is the same as potential energy formula. (A = E = Sum(F*ds) = Sum((m*a)*ds) = Sum((m*g)*dh) = m*g*h). So I think that all talk, that we can not use second one, because it is "wrong" one, and, that we have to use the first one, because it is "good" one, has nothing to do with physics because its the same formula. All useful input work (when pendulum fulcrum reach starting point) is done against gravity force (so we have only vertical components of path (s) and acceleration (a) vectors and that are: g and h). And since experimenter (J. Bebic) do not draw Forces Schema or sets System Equations, before dynamometer measurement, he (and we) can not see what is he measuring. Not to mention that without good made video, experiment is practically useless to other people .
2. One also need to lift or stroke pendulum weight at the same moment as it would do with dynamometer pulling. So I believe that we have practically the same experiment...See also 2. b) remark here. (from: "For Input Energy measurement and calculation")
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 10:51:20 PM by astroshima »

TinselKoala

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #826 on: December 20, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »
Ermm...yes.

I realize my sarcasm can be rather subtle at times. Just to be clear, I find the Milkovic system to be an elaborate pendulum energy storage system, with possible chaotic performance at times :
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKXVl-W6HGc&feature=related

There is no way that it is "overunity", and in fact it really isn't even a very efficient way to store energy. It may at times magnify force or power, but so what, so does a flywheel, and it cannot continue to do so without corresponding energy input, plus a little more to overcome losses.

hansvonlieven

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #827 on: December 20, 2008, 07:30:06 PM »
@ TK

You are right about the system being chaotic. When you look at the pendulum side of the system say from the balance beam fulcrum onwards you will notice that you have in effect a double pendulum. The chaotic movement of a double pendulum is well known.

The fact that the balance beam part has only limited movement only dampens the chaos effect, but does not eliminate it. That is why you cannot fit a crankshaft to the device because the strokes are uneven.

Hans von Lieven

truth

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #828 on: December 21, 2008, 03:04:10 AM »
 ::)

If the weight of the pendulum(W) must be lifted to a start height(H), then the combined force of the stokes output by the business end of the lever should be enough to lift a weight to that same height(WH).

Any energy REQUIRED to SUSTAIN the pendulum swing must be output by the lever PRIOR to that added pendulum lift.

Ratchet a 1:1 pulley with equal weight and measure height.

I hate that it is all really that SIMPLE.
 ;D

SteinerP

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #829 on: December 28, 2008, 05:26:32 PM »
::)

If the weight of the pendulum(W) must be lifted to a start height(H), then the combined force of the stokes output by the business end of the lever should be enough to lift a weight to that same height(WH).

Any energy REQUIRED to SUSTAIN the pendulum swing must be output by the lever PRIOR to that added pendulum lift.

Ratchet a 1:1 pulley with equal weight and measure height.

I hate that it is all really that SIMPLE.
 ;D



The Question of Understanding and Patience

It is clear that there are new mechanical effects that are beyond common conceptions: you can see videos, opinions and expert analyses www.veljkomilkovic.com.
Nevertheless, all of this has to be worked on further to show the overunity effect more clearly.
There is a need for patient analyses beside the fact that the usability is obvious, both in theory and practice.

TinselKoala

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #830 on: December 29, 2008, 12:57:33 AM »
What is clear, is that SteinerP and the rest of the crew at veljkomilkovic.com have decided, based on theory, that their device is overunity, and will not do any appropriate control experiments to determine whether it really is or not.

Of course it isn't, and the theory is severely flawed.

There are several ways that one may test a device like this, in an appropriate manner. For example, the business end could work a piston air compressor and the compressed air could be used to power a pump. Or another milkovic pendulum. Or anything. The losses in compressed air systems are well-understood and the overall energy throughput could be accurately calculated.

But experiments like this, which would show that the pendulum is under-unity, obviously are flawed--because the system is already known to be OU and if your experiment doesn't show this, the experiment is flawed.

I kid you not--this is the way these people will "reason" about their experimentation and their device.

If the usability is obvious, please give a single design for a device that would work better, powered by a milkovic pendulum. Other than a chaotic pendulum demonstrator, perhaps!


Merg

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SteinerP

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #832 on: January 17, 2009, 07:41:48 PM »
What is clear, is that SteinerP and the rest of the crew at veljkomilkovic.com have decided, based on theory, that their device is overunity, and will not do any appropriate control experiments to determine whether it really is or not.

Of course it isn't, and the theory is severely flawed.

There are several ways that one may test a device like this, in an appropriate manner. For example, the business end could work a piston air compressor and the compressed air could be used to power a pump. Or another milkovic pendulum. Or anything. The losses in compressed air systems are well-understood and the overall energy throughput could be accurately calculated.

But experiments like this, which would show that the pendulum is under-unity, obviously are flawed--because the system is already known to be OU and if your experiment doesn't show this, the experiment is flawed.

I kid you not--this is the way these people will "reason" about their experimentation and their device.

If the usability is obvious, please give a single design for a device that would work better, powered by a milkovic pendulum. Other than a chaotic pendulum demonstrator, perhaps!



"...the rest of the crew at veljkomilkovic.com"
"...this is the way these people will "reason" about their experimentation and their device"

Instead of this kind of language (which obviously can augment the numbers of posts and receive a rank of hero member in quantity over quality), could you please focus solely on what is the topic instead of addressing people that you do not know and cannot by any means label as somebody's crew. Your expertise would than be more than appreciated and be given a proper attention, satisfying your obvious need for it.

Best regards



TinselKoala

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #833 on: January 19, 2009, 06:16:46 PM »
"...the rest of the crew at veljkomilkovic.com"
"...this is the way these people will "reason" about their experimentation and their device"

Instead of this kind of language (which obviously can augment the numbers of posts and receive a rank of hero member in quantity over quality), could you please focus solely on what is the topic instead of addressing people that you do not know and cannot by any means label as somebody's crew. Your expertise would than be more than appreciated and be given a proper attention, satisfying your obvious need for it.

Best regards




OK, you object to my characterization of the honored research team at Milkovic Laboratories as
"the crew" and as "those people".
And you ask me to stay on topic. Fine.
When I have suggested proper control experiments or ways to effectively utilize the output of the Milkovic system, I have been ignored. I figured this was because the scientists (and I do use that term advisedly) were dodging the issues, since these experiments and methods would ALMOST CERTAINLY (and I include the "almost" out of sheer politeness) reveal unequivocally that the system is far, far from OU and is in fact rather inefficient as an energy storage system.
So, instead of publishing pdf reports of "proof" experiments, let's see the proper performance of a "disproof" experiment, and when that experiment FAILS, let's start talking about staying on topic, again.

TinselKoala

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #834 on: January 19, 2009, 06:19:53 PM »
"...the rest of the crew at veljkomilkovic.com"
"...this is the way these people will "reason" about their experimentation and their device"

Instead of this kind of language (which obviously can augment the numbers of posts and receive a rank of hero member in quantity over quality), could you please focus solely on what is the topic instead of addressing people that you do not know and cannot by any means label as somebody's crew. Your expertise would than be more than appreciated and be given a proper attention, satisfying your obvious need for it.

Best regards




And, Steiner, newbie, if you would care to look at my posts, you might actually learn something about the content of postings that go into making a poster's ratings what they are. Many people on this forum troll, criticise and sling mud without any evidence, good ideas, or contributions of their own. Perhaps I do not fall into this category.
Into which category will you fall, when you have accumulated enough posts to acquire some credibility? I suppose that is up to you.
You have not, however, gotten off to a good start.

Paul-R

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #835 on: January 19, 2009, 07:28:45 PM »
Many people on this forum troll, criticise and sling mud without any evidence...
...and that sums up your contribution to three separate threads on this site that I have
noticed. Probably a dozen more that I have not.

If you doubt the value of the "12 times more..." ideas, then try one of the water pumps.

Paul.

utilitarian

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #836 on: January 19, 2009, 08:01:50 PM »
...and that sums up your contribution to three separate threads on this site that I have
noticed. Probably a dozen more that I have not.

If you doubt the value of the "12 times more..." ideas, then try one of the water pumps.

Paul.

I have seen the water pumps.  Not impressive.  Look, this entire contraption is just a see-saw with a pendulum on one end of it?  How in the world do you get overunity out of that?  You can't, and the fact that there are zero self-propelling examples of the Milkovic pendulum speaks pretty loudly.

Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #837 on: January 19, 2009, 08:11:45 PM »
...and that sums up your contribution to three separate threads on this site that I have
noticed. Probably a dozen more that I have not.

If you doubt the value of the "12 times more..." ideas, then try one of the water pumps.

Paul.

Well I don't really understand why people do still continue to argue on whether or not this machine works when it is so simple.
People should instead try to build it with spare parts and junk that they got around, and see that it will still do much more than what a simple machine could do (which is to convert distance into force).

It does not directly use the rotation energy which we store in the moving pendulum, instead it uses the centripetal force created by its rotation. The loss of momentum in the pendulum is a result only of the pendulums displacement, and not effected by how much force you allow it to transfer to the other side. This is why a heavy load should be used, because it will increase the pendulums efficiency.

If any of you here have seen Tommey Lee Reed's videos before his account was suspended, that very efficient linear to angular ratched system could have been great if combined with this machine. Hope I get some time soon to try it out :)

Paul-R

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #838 on: January 20, 2009, 12:55:44 AM »
Well I don't really understand why people do still continue to argue on whether or not this machine works when it is so simple....
Its not that simple; quite a few tuning and probably resonance issues
Paul.

Nabo00o

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #839 on: January 20, 2009, 06:36:14 AM »
Its not that simple; quite a few tuning and probably resonance issues
Paul.


Well yes. The timing is really the hard part, at least that's my view.

But the actual mechanics involved is really as simple as one could have wished for.

Btw, for any of you have built this thing, is it possible to use wood as the main hinge, or would that maybe be to weak?