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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 1591073 times)

Offline Matech

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #330 on: March 09, 2007, 03:56:20 PM »
Hi.
I'm the one who built the ugly bike contraption, and let me say: the night before I connected the pink bike I really thought it was a free lunch system (hardly slept). Once the pendulum got going it seemed there was no stopping it. Even with varying amounts of wheight on the arm and different spring tensions, you can move the arms' pivot point aswell if you like. I got to thinking how much power would be required to swing a 15kg pendulum and repeatedly pick up and put down an apposing 10kg weight. The fact is they are inter-linked. The 10kg weight on its way down helps the pendulum and the pendulum helps pick the weight up again. Trying to extract work does not work! Bump a 30 pound flywheel twice a second and you'll pump water through a 1/16 inch pipe or light some torch bulbs-I promise. If this is 12X OU why can a man with 50 degrees not make it self run?

M.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #331 on: March 10, 2007, 01:25:21 AM »
Hi.
I'm the one who built the ugly bike contraption, and let me say: the night before I connected the pink bike I really thought it was a free lunch system (hardly slept). Once the pendulum got going it seemed there was no stopping it. Even with varying amounts of wheight on the arm and different spring tensions, you can move the arms' pivot point aswell if you like. I got to thinking how much power would be required to swing a 15kg pendulum and repeatedly pick up and put down an apposing 10kg weight. The fact is they are inter-linked. The 10kg weight on its way down helps the pendulum and the pendulum helps pick the weight up again. Trying to extract work does not work! Bump a 30 pound flywheel twice a second and you'll pump water through a 1/16 inch pipe or light some torch bulbs-I promise. If this is 12X OU why can a man with 50 degrees not make it self run?

M.

M,

Very good to see you make the effort to prove this out, good work.

However there are several issues with your unit that may have influenced
your conclusions to be negative. Keep in mind that Veljko does say repeatedly
that this is a two stage oscillator.

1) So the counter weight is very important... I had poor results with a spring.

2) In my examination of bicycle freewheels I found that most have a non instant
pickup when changing direction and the kind that go "click click" actually have an
inch or two of pedal travel before engaging. It is hard to see in the vid but there
appears to be some lost motion in yours?

3) you were only collecting one half of the stroke.

I do hope your next one will function better.
An improperly built unit is not proof that Veljko's design does not work

Regards,

Ron




Offline Matech

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #332 on: March 10, 2007, 07:46:55 PM »
Hi Ron.

I didn't put the scheme to bed entirely, I built yet another simple contraption out of wood this time (easier to machine and mill etc). The balancing is incredibly simple, by moving the weight further or closer from the pendulum an "ideal" setup can be achieved.
All of the same problems again, the pendulum swings fantastically until the arm is even slightly tampered with. Milcovic implies that the pendulums' movement is not affected by interfering with the arm, this is not true. I rigged up magnets and coils and what not, the arm doesn't like to work at all.
It will be a big day for free energy enthusiasts when gravity can be exploited for uses other than the work it does for us at the moment.
Lifting a dead horse with the same gravity that prevents it from floating away will take some flogging.

M

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #332 on: March 10, 2007, 07:46:55 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #333 on: March 10, 2007, 09:52:57 PM »
Hi Matech,
what have been your weights and leverage relations ?
I think the unit would work best, if the pendulum is at least 2times as far away from the pivot point and thus the pendulum weight can be a bit more heavier than half the weight of the output side.

Offline i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #334 on: March 10, 2007, 10:25:49 PM »
Hi Ron.

All of the same problems again, the pendulum swings fantastically until the arm is even slightly tampered with. Milcovic implies that the pendulums' movement is not affected by interfering with the arm, this is not true. I rigged up magnets and coils and what not, the arm doesn't like to work at all.


M

M, this is all too true and is just common sense. If you disturb the pendulum by raising
or lowering it it requires more power to maintain the swing.

What I found is with the arm locked it runs on half the power. And this is another one of those things where small doesn't cut it. I am up to 40 pounds (18 Kg) and to me this is the where you can "just start" to get something out, before that it is lost in
the woodwork.

What I discovered in earlier experiments is that with about 120? of swing, practically
the actual weight of the pendulum is apparent at the end of the secondary arm.
With the 40 pound weight I can hold the bathroom scale under the 1:1 arm and
lift up to 30 pounds and the arm is still trying to work! ( it should be +/- 20 pounds
but the scale won't follow the motion) so there is work being done.

Now this is with a very limited amount of travel as can be seen in my second video.

Ron











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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #334 on: March 10, 2007, 10:25:49 PM »
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Offline iacob alex

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #335 on: March 11, 2007, 07:02:59 AM »
                              Hi !

A slow motion movie(we live in the youtube times...) of this "inexplicable" double mechanical oscillator in gravity and inertia,can show us,as on a paper,the related display on the time line of the swingings of the pendular mass and beam mass.

It's seems to be an asymmetric type game: a situation in which are implicated two "players" of unequal power:gravity and inertia.

The asymmetric game is advanced by the pendular motion with a balancing fulcrum/pivot.

With a fixed fulcrum,the pendular swinging is simmetrical in gravity and inertia.

The free balancing fulcrum of the pendulum on the balace beam(lever as a weighting machine of the dynamics...) introduces an asymmetric  fall/rise sequence.

The difference of the inertial reaction is transffered to the beam mass:as Milkovic shows,this is an one way power mechanism...or it works as a pendular motion absorber.

The gravity asks for  symmetry:this is the basis of a lever momentum relation.

The asymmetric swinging action asks for an asymmetric inertial reaction.

More(maybe we can see on a slow motion movie),it's possible to have some unequal swingings times(fall vs. rise).

If so,we have an anisochronal pendulum(a motion "prohibited" by inertia!?),so we play time factor in an "unusual" manner?an asymmetric compression technique?

A slow movie can tell us more...

               All the Bests!  /  Alex

Offline i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #336 on: March 11, 2007, 05:58:13 PM »
iacob,

You lost me after the "slow video"  lol

What I am coming to think is we should be studying the "balanced beam" or teeter
totter... the pendulum is well written up and easy to understand, but there is no
information on the resonant frequency of the 'beam', no handy dandy tutorials on
"how to maximize your teeter totter output"

Because this is where the action is. I mentioned that I had tried a spring... well the
spring has a tendency to absorb the force and not give it back! So if we look at the pendulum as just an oscillator... that balances and unbalances the beam... for free,
then we would be getting closer to the truth.

We have learned that if you extract work from a pendulum then you pay the price.
Throughout history the pendulum pivot point has been of robust construction to
prevent any vertical motion. But Veljko has shown us that there is a force there
that will allow a certain amount of work to be extracted from the pendulum...with
minimum penalty. As the pendulum swings up towards weightlessness, we allow the
pivot point to rise... as the pendulum swings down, adding the acquired force of
being restrained from its gravity fall, we allow the pivot point to descend.

This perturbation of the pendulum is almost benign, we pay only a minimum penalty.
But the balance/unbalance transfered to the beam is a useful byproduct that can be
utilized.

Hope this helps...

Ron








Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #336 on: March 11, 2007, 05:58:13 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #337 on: March 11, 2007, 09:44:36 PM »
Hi All,

I see a lot of downloads of my video... so perhaps an explanation is in order.

In the beginning I didn't know where to provide the input to the pendulum. I thus
chose the grand father clock model where the input is at the end of the stroke.
This required logic to not pulse as the pendulum swung up through the trigger window
but to only fire on the way down.

This worked well for Mk 1, 2 and 3... but with doubling the weight and allowing the pivot point to rise and fall required more power. I cut another trigger window at BDC so as to have the coil pulse twice per swing and thus doubling my input to 11 watts.

But I since find that perhaps the optimum firing position is at the bottom of the swing, in the words of JDJ...

"I believe that I detect in the writing of both Mr. Pugh and Mr. Berrett a fundamental confusion between the force of the output impulse and the amount of energy it might deliver.  Energy (or work) is the product of force and distance.  In fact Mr. Pugh has demonstrated this relationship by pushing his pendulum at the bottom of its swing.  At the bottom of the swing the pendulum velocity is maximum so that for an applied pulse of fixed duration, the force is applied over a greater distance at the bottom of the swing than at the top.  This couples additional energy into the pendulum from the driving coil resulting in higher swing amplitude."

So what I am saying is please don't copy my earlier work. For in the next model I
wish to do away with the current drive electronics and instead go for the Bedini
trigger. The logic behind this is the JB trigger is directionally sensitive and will only
fire the coil(s) after TDC... regardless of the approach direction. By TDC I mean
full coverage of the magnet by the cored coil. I will use the pulse motor as seen in the
video but wind an addition coil with a trigger winding and move one magnet station
so that the coils and magnets are at 180? and pulsed simultaneously, when the pendulum is at the bottom of its stroke.

Mark three, as posted, is just a report of my progress and can be seen as a
"don't do it this way" type machine.

Ron



Offline stevewal2

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #338 on: March 12, 2007, 01:15:51 AM »
Hi Ron,
I have to say I'm really impressed with your mechines and engineering skills. Great ideas too. Keep up the great work. I replayed your video several times. The bendi trigger definetely sounds the way to go.  :)

Steve.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #338 on: March 12, 2007, 01:15:51 AM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #339 on: March 13, 2007, 01:53:28 AM »
Thanks Steve...

you are too kind. It is always nice to see interest in Veljko's ideas.

Ron

Offline ChileanOne

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #340 on: March 19, 2007, 02:17:18 PM »
Have you seen the latest article on Barrett's replication of Milkovic Ideas!

He has achieved the rotation of a bycicle wheel at around 100 RPMs with a power sustaining impulse (for the pendulum) of 2 watts. As the video shows the wheel with a lot of magnets attached, I bet the next step is puting some coil around and generate power output, let's hope he achieves self sustaining, it looks really promising!!!



< http://pesn.com/2007/03/18/9500462_Berrett_pendulums/ >

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #340 on: March 19, 2007, 02:17:18 PM »
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Offline stevewal2

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #341 on: March 19, 2007, 02:53:49 PM »
Lol, I was just trying to post the same thing. Looks like you beat me to it. Yep it's looking pretty good. I'm not sure what he's using to drive the spinning weel on the last rig, but it looks like he's only transfering power on either the down or up stroke. This progect really needs specifically engineered parts, including a concave and convex rack and pinion to transfer torque to a double ratcheted flywheel on both the up and down strokes. This would help maintain the momentup to extract useful power.

cheers,
Steve.

Offline dorro1971

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #342 on: March 19, 2007, 07:43:13 PM »
hi all,

Regarding ratchets and things, i feel it would be most efficient to use industrial one way clutches as these have almost no lost movement, also with two clutches and two gears you could utilze both up and down motion...


have fun

dorro

Offline xnonix

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #343 on: March 22, 2007, 10:52:19 AM »
Hi all, this is my first post but I'm here long time ago.

I have made a power study and here you are the results. All is done by simulation on wm2d.

I have simulated the hand giving a impulse to the pendulum by a motor and I have reads of power in each impulse.

Because we can have reads of springs power I have used a spring as our generator in the 2nd stage oscillator.

I compared power in and power out.

Test to put air resistance 0.1

Judge by yourselves.

Offline xnonix

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #344 on: March 22, 2007, 02:19:40 PM »
I made another setup much more intuitive.

Now the hand stroke is simulated in another way.

Have fun!

PS: Sorry for correlative posts.

 

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