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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 1537251 times)

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #225 on: January 04, 2007, 06:47:02 AM »
User 'hartiberlin1' has exceeded the 'max_questions' resource (current value: 90000)  >:(

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Offline allcanadian

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #226 on: January 04, 2007, 09:42:44 AM »
I was thinking of that as well supersam, our wise friends talking about generators and computers really have no idea about engineering efficient mechanical systems. So you use a one-way bearing in the fulcrum and use springs on the hammer side to limit movement. Then you attach a flywheel to the one-way bearing shaft, when the pendulum hits the top of its swing on one side it hits the flywheel and momentum is transfered from the flywheel to the pendulum. If it works for more than 5 minutes you have your proof. Absolute simplicity in design and function comes from knowledge and understanding- not textbooks.

Offline arbus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #227 on: January 06, 2007, 08:57:47 AM »
I tried this experiment.  You should try it too!
It is really easy to see that if you reverse it, ie oscilate the lever then the pendulum will gain momentum.
Please prove me wrong... :)

And no. the woman will not save 12 times the energy or sweat. She has to put just as much force on the pendulum as she would on the pump (more actually).  It is just a lever action.  Same when he is pushing the pendulum with the torch.  Remember the stationary torches are not moving.  The one in his hand is. 

And Yes the pendulum loses momentum when the lever oscilates.
Think about it... pendulum swings out, lever goes down.  Pendulum has lost energy. In the small demo video it dosent appear to lose energy because the Springiness in the lever stores the energy.

Again, Try it!!!

What is the first thing you would do if you really were generating 12 times more energy?

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #227 on: January 06, 2007, 08:57:47 AM »
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Offline arbus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #228 on: January 06, 2007, 09:07:58 AM »
Please if there is something i am not getting here let me know...

But i believe the mystical resonance effect is better thought of as stored energy.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #229 on: January 06, 2007, 09:11:17 AM »
@Arbus,
please post a few pictures yof your experiments,
so we can see, if you did the setup right ?
Many thanks in advance.

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #229 on: January 06, 2007, 09:11:17 AM »
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Offline ChileanOne

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #230 on: January 06, 2007, 01:49:32 PM »
Gaby de wilde has shared an idea of the arched smot (http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/new-smot)
to improve the effect of the energy gain because of the centrifugal force. I have been thinking how to make a "perpetual pendulum" to use in the Milkovic two stage oscillator, by using a ball and magnets built within the pendulum pestle, and I think that the arched smot design could be used in favour of gravity as a way to keep the ball going on, taking advantage of gravitational, centrifugal and magnetical forces. I attach an sketch, could this work? Please don't get mad at me if the idea sucks, this my first post in this forum.

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #231 on: January 06, 2007, 02:44:32 PM »
...Some of Milkoviks demos are to me unconvincing, because he seems not to take into account Work=force times distance...
Hi Neptune,

I agree with you. So in order to evaluate the system, we have to calculate this work.
Firstly we don't have to care the lever as it is a well known not OU system but it only transmits forces.
Secondly we "just" have to calculate the work that an oscillating pendulum could do when its rotation point moves along a vertical line.
Unfortunately, as even the movement equations of a simple pendulum are very complex to handle I'm afraid with the mathematics we would have to develop here.
We can make a first approximation: we may think that almost all the work is done when the pendulum is near vertical.
At this position it is known that the centrifugal pseudoforce can reach more than twice the weight of the pendulum. So the work done when the rotation point of the pendulum is sliding down along a distance h can be more than twice the work of its weight alone.
As the displacement is perpendicular to the motion of the pendulum mass, no work is made against this motion, so the kinetics energy is conserved, no loss on this side.
Nevertheless the pendulum is now lower so we lost a potential energy mgh.
Thus the final result of the energy gain should be around:
(Fc - mg)*h where Fc is the centrifugal force (Fc = m*v?/l where l is the length of the pendulum and v the speed of the mass).
As Fc > mg then we should have OU (it's the first time I think it should perhaps be possible :-).




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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #231 on: January 06, 2007, 02:44:32 PM »
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Offline bigface

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #232 on: January 06, 2007, 03:50:17 PM »
Not much can be concluded from the video since we don't know the technical aspects of it, for example, how do we know that the pendulum weighs like 50 kg and the hammer only say 5 kg

Offline ChileanOne

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #233 on: January 06, 2007, 04:46:38 PM »
...Some of Milkoviks demos are to me unconvincing, because he seems not to take into account Work=force times distance...
Hi Neptune,

I agree with you. So in order to evaluate the system, we have to calculate this work.
Firstly we don't have to care the lever as it is a well known not OU system but it only transmits forces.
Secondly we "just" have to calculate the work that an oscillating pendulum could do when its rotation point moves along a vertical line.
Unfortunately, as even the movement equations of a simple pendulum are very complex to handle I'm afraid with the mathematics we would have to develop here.
We can make a first approximation: we may think that almost all the work is done when the pendulum is near vertical.
At this position it is known that the centrifugal pseudoforce can reach more than twice the weight of the pendulum. So the work done when the rotation point of the pendulum is sliding down along a distance h can be more than twice the work of its weight alone.
As the displacement is perpendicular to the motion of the pendulum mass, no work is made against this motion, so the kinetics energy is conserved, no loss on this side.
Nevertheless the pendulum is now lower so we lost a potential energy mgh.
Thus the final result of the energy gain should be around:
(Fc - mg)*h where Fc is the centrifugal force (Fc = m*v?/l where l is the length of the pendulum and v the speed of the mass).
As Fc > mg then we should have OU (it's the first time I think it should perhaps be possible :-).





Back on this thread is a link to a study of the forces in the pendulum, that states that at the maximum point if stress, the force exerted on the pendulum is 3 times it's weight. So, following your logic, this device is way OU.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #233 on: January 06, 2007, 04:46:38 PM »
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Offline ChileanOne

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #234 on: January 06, 2007, 04:49:00 PM »
Not much can be concluded from the video since we don't know the technical aspects of it, for example, how do we know that the pendulum weighs like 50 kg and the hammer only say 5 kg

One of the obvious things about this set up for being able to evidence the phenomenon discussed is that the pendulum has to be in balance with the lever, so if the pendulum side weights 50 kg the lever side has to weight 50 kg. duh.

Offline arbus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #235 on: January 07, 2007, 03:44:25 AM »
I was going to build a large scale version with a LONG pendelum on my kids swing set same as the small Spring wire version, But 1 problem is that i cant find anything springy that will support its own weight (and a pendelum) at that sort of length.
But i was just looking at the documents again and see that there is a first class lever design there. That i can build with a counterweight.

anyway i can explain  where the energy goes. i think..

  This is using the spring wire 3rd class lever design.

  The pendelum is affecting the lever(wire) even when the wire does not appear to be oscillating. Because the pendelum at the centre of its swing has more downward force. At 90 deg it is almost weightless. This causes the wire to oscilate up and down twice per swing. (even if you cant see it) and this is a classic 3rd class lever

Now the oscillation in the wire is caused by the up and down movement of the pendelum.  Because the wire is long you get a wave oscillation effect. If the wire was short it only oscilates twice per swing.

OK here's where you lose energy..  The up and down movement of the pendelum is absorbed by the spring wire.... 
Try this... get a piece of string, tie something to the end of it and swing it. Now move your hand up and down. You can either make the pendelum move faster or slower(stop). When you make it slow down you are absorbing the pendelum energy.

This is the same with the piece of wire it moves up and down, pretty much in sinc with the pendelum, but it is absorbing the pendelum's energy.
If you stop the wire from oscillating the pendelum will swing more efficently.

I think one misleading point of the viedos is that they show HEAVY pendelums on a short swing.  But you can see with the torches video they have to put alot of effort into the swing to keep the thing swinging.



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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #235 on: January 07, 2007, 03:44:25 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #236 on: January 07, 2007, 03:53:50 AM »
Not much can be concluded from the video since we don't know the technical aspects of it, for example, how do we know that the pendulum weighs like 50 kg and the hammer only say 5 kg

One of the obvious things about this set up for being able to evidence the phenomenon discussed is that the pendulum has to be in balance with the lever, so if the pendulum side weights 50 kg the lever side has to weight 50 kg. duh.

Not necessarily... Its now my belief that the hammer end of the lever might actually be slightly heavier to help match the pendulums phase. Basically it allows for the hammer to only be lifted when the pendulum is within 10 degrees of vertical. I have found in some simulations this slight imbalance allows for the system to run longer in phase while still allowing the pendulum to match velocities with its control pendulum. This means the pendulum is doing more work then when I was balancing the lever but runs longer and with more efficiency. As I have said before there is still lots to understand hidden in this seemingly simple device. Right now I don't have room or time to start working on a physical replication, but in the coming year I hope to start work on it.


@ all the naysayers
I have a challange for you the same I've issued to everyone. Download WM2D and do a few simulations where you have 2 identical pendulums one on the lever and the other running independant as a control for observation. Then add a damper to extract work. You will sooner or later find what I found which is examples of first law violations. The simulations and my hypothysis may be right or it may be wrong, but at least I'm testing it thuroughly before dissmissing it as junk.

~Dingus

Offline dek

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #237 on: January 07, 2007, 05:53:04 AM »
Dingus- please post your w2md model for others to checkout.

General comments:

It occurred to me that one way to test the peak power output would be to pump water up a column.  The maximum height would give the peak-force.

To measure the power output, you would simply pump water from one reservoir to a higher reservoir, and measure the time it takes to transfer a known volume.  The energy gain is given by PE=mgh, and divided by time would give most of the power output (less friction in pump, flow resistance, compliance, etc.).  The water pumped gains the usable energy.  This would be more accurate than sweeping magnets past coils I think.

I think that the best way to measure the input power would be to actuate the pendulum electromagnetically, and just measure the electrical input power.  It could even be triggered by a manual switch.  Could also use one of those slick parallel-path designs.

If I were asked, I'd recommend closing the loop using a fluid-only system.  The pendulum could be driven by a water-wheel I think.

It's striking to me that the input force to keep the pendulum swinging is perpendicular to the gravitational force, and the work is being done parallel to the gravitational force.


Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #238 on: January 07, 2007, 09:12:38 AM »
I already posted this I think, but I don't feel like looking for it...

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #239 on: January 07, 2007, 09:29:31 AM »
OK here's where you lose energy..  The up and down movement of the pendelum is absorbed by the spring wire.... 
Try this... get a piece of string, tie something to the end of it and swing it. Now move your hand up and down. You can either make the pendelum move faster or slower(stop). When you make it slow down you are absorbing the pendelum energy.

My spring line added kinetic energy to the pendulum, and beat matched it. (equal freq)
It also spun a flywheel with a rotational damper in one direction for over 4 minutes.

I'm planning on buying a legit copy next month, then I can upload the actual sims for you guys.

 

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