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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 1579712 times)

Offline nwman

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #210 on: December 30, 2006, 11:15:15 PM »
Questions I have that I was wondering if someone can answer? They are simple and stupid but I just want to ask.

Whats more efficient at converting mechanical energy to electrical energy? A standard generator motor or the induction field thing with a magnet passing through coiled wire?

Whats more efficient at turning electrical energy  into mechanical energy? A electric motor or say a electromagnet (push / pull)?


Tim

P.S. I am interested in this design. I'm not convinced it works yet but I'm also not convinced that is doesn't. I am looking at possibly getting a few dollars in research grant money to study alternative energy sources and I might be interested in funding a professional study of this. It seems Milkovic has patented a lot of stuff which if it works makes it hard for any money to be made off of it for anyone else. I would hate to fund the development and then have him take all the rights. However that is my second objective. I know the U.S. will not approve a patent of a PMM unless there is a working model. From what I know they don't have any patents for PMMs yet. So long story short I hope I get this money as soon as late Jan 07.

Check out this link on Generators to motor setups (video at bottom of page). This one is only a 60% efficient but with better quality motors it could be around 90%.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/genmot.html

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Offline neptune

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #211 on: December 31, 2006, 06:47:54 PM »
Hi there, this is my first post, and I have followed this thred with interest. I am no mathematician, but I am a practical man and an engineer by trade. I feel this device MAY be overunity. Some of Milkoviks demos are to me unconvincing, because he seems not to take into account Work=force times distance. there is no obvious measurement of distance. If we are to close the loop, I think we can forget electrical feedback systems. You would be lucky to acheive more than 20 or 30 per cent efficiency overall. The problems of closing the loop, are problems of phasing.The out-put pulse of the lever occurs at the wrong time to feed back immediately to the pendulum. We nead to harvest and store this pulse, by compressing a spring , a bit like loading a popgun. the gun/spring is then triggered just as the pendulum begins its downward swing. I have designed a system on paper. Hope to build it in the new year as work allows.
                Among Milkoviks patents is a patent, with diagram, entitled " Mechanical Toy with pendulum and 3 oscillating levers".This looks to me like an attempt at a perpetual motion Machine. Why was it given this title? Was it perhaps because patents for perpeyual motion machines are not permitted? No one else seems to have noticed this. Someone asked about the relative efficiencies of electric motors versus electromagnets. I would say the electric motor would win, but doesnot lend itself to this job. I beleive purely mechanical is the way to go.

Offline a19grey

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2007, 02:14:59 AM »
Well, if this machine really achieves an overunity ratio of 1 to 12 then an electrical feedback system with only 20% efficiency would still be sufficient to prove the device was over unity because 0.2 * 12 = 2.4 > 1.  However, to save everyone some time, I would point out that the only indications that we have of this device being over-unity are a video with demonstrations in which the inventor clearly confuses work done with force exerted. Also, in the calculation for the coefficient of work input to output
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Measurement1.JPG
he seems to have made the same error since his calculated coefficient is exactly equal to the ratio of the forces necessary to push down the two plungers.  This may just be a coincidence, but since he doesn't explain his experimental procedures one can't be sure.   In the following experimental results pages,
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/MerenjaEng.html  Milkovik makes the force/energy mistake again. 
As an example, in this experiment where  he compares the deformation of two sponge cylinders - http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Measurement4.JPG
The deformation of objects is not linearly dependent upon the force exerted upon them.  For example, tap your finger on your table for two or three hours,  then hit it with a hammer.  The deformation of your table (unless you have a really good metal table) will clearly not be related to the net force, or even the net energy expended upon the table top, but is instead related to the energy per second (power) delivered to the table.

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2007, 02:14:59 AM »
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Offline gaby de wilde

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #213 on: January 02, 2007, 07:24:55 PM »
the only indications that we have of this device being over-unity are a video with demonstrations.

I still have my common sense. The inventor did everything he should have done. People ask "why didn't he close the loop", makes me giggle, it's as-if they cant tie a knot? Building a pendulum isn't exactly rocket science?? Where did your replication fail? Do you have a video of your device? I just cant applaud welcoming innovation with "puh, it's probably nothing".

After building a few pendulums I find it incredibly hard to debunk his theory. Don't think I'm not trying. You say "safe your time", but for what exactly? I cant think of anything more exiting as this. ha-ha ;D

Quote
The deformation of objects is not linearly dependent upon the force exerted upon them.

It still makes it very easy to see the difference.

http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-7)_Universal_oscillator-generator.wmv

The hand lights light up 4 times for every push. The push is short and not strong enough to light the torch. On the other hand we have 18 torches burning 4 times.

I'm convinced if he hooks up a volt meter people will find new excuses. :'(

I think the trick is to not-believe anyone and measure it yourself. Of that I am convinced.

Offline neptune

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #214 on: January 02, 2007, 09:17:25 PM »
Hi there, still surprised no one commented on Milkovic Patent entitled Mechanical toy etc, see my last post. I found the torch demo fairly convincing, but not 100 per cent. Any future progress will probably be acheived by practical rather than theoretical effort. Being self employed, I have little time to spend personally, But members of our gang are working on two machines. Both machines at this stage consist just of pivoted beams and pendulums, all on ball bearings. Experiments are ongoing,  but it would seem that for the effect to be pronounced, a pendulum weight of at least 28 pounds[say 12 kilo] is preferable. The attraction of an electrical feedback system is its ease of controll using standard components, despite its low efficiency. Higher efficency is acheivable using a mechanical system, but this demans tools like a lathe, welder etc, and the skills ofa model engineer or clockmaker. There seems little info on optimum design of the basic machine, dimensions, weights etc. Assuming overunity is possible, it will take a high degree of skill and persistance to acheive it.Heres Hoping...

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #214 on: January 02, 2007, 09:17:25 PM »
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Offline arbus

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #215 on: January 03, 2007, 02:55:38 AM »
Hi, i am not a scientist. Just an engineer. I was reading the posts here and decided to try this experiment.
Here's what i found.
The oscilation effect caused by the pendulum is caused by the weight of the pendulum bending the spring(in the simple example).  This energy is transfered from the pendulum to the spring.
This is similar to when you are on a swing. You move your legs out and in and the energy is transfred to the swing.(ok its reverse, but same principle. Your legs are oscilating)

If you make a simple pendulum on a spring wire you can oscilate the wire and make the pendulum go back and forth. ie reverse the process using the energy of the oscilation and the stored energy of the spring.

The trick in the viedos where he is banging the hammer is that he has a BIG HEAVY pendulum and the energy is being stored in the pendulum stroke and cracked down using energy transferance.  He is putting in alot of energy to push the pendulum as it is losing energy fast!

Think of it this way. 1 person can push a car and if that car hits you even slowly it can crush you. But if the person was simply pushing you directly you wouldnt be hurt.

with a heavy pendulum you could bruise your finger near the high point of travel if you got it stuck between the pendulum and something hard.

The picture of the poor Africans pushing a pendulum to pump water isnt new. THe energy is being stored and released. The pushing of the pendulum takes lots of energy!

If you put 2 identical pendulums next to each other, one swinging on a spring the one on the spring will stop first, because it is using energy to oscilate. If you exert oposite force on the spring the pendulum will stop quicker.

A pendulum is very efficent but you cant get more energy  from it then you put in.

Think of this.  In a clock wound by  a spring, you can swing a pendulum for days or weeks.  The clock has lots of moving parts but sooner or later the pendulum must stop.

The claim of 12 times the energy is absolute garbage. 

Offline sevich

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #216 on: January 03, 2007, 03:57:42 AM »
It really should read:

"when using Milkovic's mechanical device to pump water, the involved individual will save 12 times his/her sweat"

He's confusing the "pressure energy" of a womans high heals being sufficiant to raise her off the ground!


Nevertheles Milkovic should be congradulated for his discovery of "gravity assist" in todays mechanics.





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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #216 on: January 03, 2007, 03:57:42 AM »
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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #217 on: January 03, 2007, 08:01:17 AM »
"He's confusing the "pressure energy" of a womans high heals being sufficiant to raise her off the ground!"

is the woman at a current momentum like the pendulum? or is she at a dead stop?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 09:46:52 AM by FreeEnergy »

Offline bsrinon

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #218 on: January 03, 2007, 09:01:09 AM »
I think the key to Milkovic's system is mechanical RESONANCE.  Tesla was obsessed with both mechanical and electrical resonance and was successful in creating excess energy using the resonance principle.  I think most of you have seen the video of the bridge that collapsed because it didn't have proper damping. The cause of its collapse was due to wind that resonated with the bridge! By using resonant frequencies you can split water with very little energy, like what Stan Meyer did.

Here's a link showing a string moving a giant column pendulum using resonance:
http://www.exploratorium.edu/cmp/exhibits/r/resonant_pend.html

It looks like by resonating with the giant pendulum, one can build up a huge potential and kinetic energy by just using little force x distance.

Brian


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #218 on: January 03, 2007, 09:01:09 AM »
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Offline pese

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #219 on: January 03, 2007, 06:17:13 PM »
Even some more links tha shown WAVES and his forces,  Even better to understand when they came in resonance als with here harmanic waves....

Copies 1:1 from my collection (with remaks)
-------------------------

27.12.06
http://www.geocities.com/rolfguthmann/index.html
http://www.zayra.de/soulcom/physicsofphi/PhysicsofPHI.html  phsik
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/superposition/superposition.html  wellen erkl?rt
http://www.glafreniere.com/matter.htm  wellen erkl?rt
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_electron.htm
The Electron
It can also be considered as one half of an electron. ... Mr. Milo Wolff's static electron and its full lambda core, according to the ...
www.glafreniere.com/sa_electron.htm

das zeigt ganz klar , dass wenn wellen (bei dir 3 ! , nicht in harmonie laufen,
FEHL-LEISTUNGEN (Schatten) haben !!

« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 02:11:36 PM by pese »

Offline a19grey

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #220 on: January 03, 2007, 10:08:22 PM »
@gaby de wilde
I?m going to have to agree with arbus on this one.  When I said that ?we shouldn?t waste our time? I meant that we should move on to other possible OU devices.  I?m as excited by this stuff as anyone else, it?s just that it?s clear to me that this particular device, while novel and interesting, is not an OU device. 

However, there is a way to show the actual power input-output.  It would require buying some equipment (and owning a computer)  but it should absolutely answer the question.  Take two dynamos and hook each one up to a voltmeter and an ammeter.  Now, they have voltmeter-ammeters that will go to a hub then through a USB port to plot the values directly on screen.  So, since Voltage * I (current) = Energy take one dynamo and place it under the hammer and take another dynamo and simply hold it to push the pendulum back and forth (like in the flashlight examples).  Set the computer up to plot V*I for both dynamo setups and then take the integral of the two curves. If the integral of the energy expended is 12 times the integral of the energy put in, then the matter has truly been shown.  The thing to be careful of (and why the example with multiple flashlights is flawed)
http://www.micropixel.biz/veljkomilkovic/videos/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-7)_Universal_oscillator-generator.wmv

is to make sure that one doesn?t push so hard that the dynamo stops producing any voltage/current since the end of its range of motion has been reached.  If you look at Milkovic?s hand when performing the example above you will note that indeed the flashlight that he is using to push the pendulum DOES indeed light up, but only for a moment.  You can?t see the flashlight lighting up but really need to look at the light on his hand because flashlights are designed to shine light mostly straight ahead and the camera is at an angle to the direction the flashlight is pointing.  If you also note, the flashlight stops shinning BEFORE Milkovic stops pushing on the pendulum. This is because the handle of the dynamo/flashlight can move only so far and he pushes the handle all the way in and once the handle is all the way in you can use the flashlight to push the pendulum and do work without it lighting up which is the problem that I mentioned earlier. 

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #220 on: January 03, 2007, 10:08:22 PM »
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Offline supersam

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #221 on: January 04, 2007, 03:41:53 AM »
the way i see it , since there is plenty of power from the crank shaft of the 21 speed scrap bicycle, used as the fulcrum, in my setup, to keep the pendulum swinging as long as you want it to, i just can't see what the question is?

lol
sam

ps:  happy new year

Offline supersam

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #222 on: January 04, 2007, 03:49:12 AM »
hey everyone,

SHIFT THE GEARS IN YOUR MIND AND YOU JUST MIGHT LIKE IT!!!!!

lol
sam

Offline supersam

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #223 on: January 04, 2007, 04:27:42 AM »
hey everyone,

all you have to do is keep the pendulum swinging, and everything else takes care of itself!!!! there are no more questions after that!!!!  just try it for yourself!!!  i think you will be amazed!!!!  i know i was.

lol
sam

ps: will i post anything?  NO.

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #224 on: January 04, 2007, 06:46:37 AM »
supersam post pics/vids if you have achieved over unity. sounds like you did?

 

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