Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 514019
  • *Total Topics: 15297
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 1
  • *Guests: 8
  • *Total: 9

Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 1449912 times)

Offline a19grey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #195 on: December 28, 2006, 04:24:39 AM »
Umm.... this is painful to watch. This isn't even close to being over unity.  The key here is to recognize the difference between force and energy.  At one point he shows how with one hand he can easily keep the pendulum going but his assistant can?t stop the machine with BOTH hands.  This is because the pendulum moves over a very large distance (the length of the arc) whereas the hammer moves over a very small distance.  Thus, the force-per-distance is different, but the energy is not. His machine performs essentially the same function of a pulley system. I hope this site can help explain this.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/blocks.html

Also,  this explains the flashlight scene.  He pushes lightly on the flashlight next to the pendulum (for a longer distance) while on the other end the hammer pushes hard (for a short distance/time) on the other flashlight.  One shouldn?t be surprised that pushing lightly for a long time doesn?t have the same effect on something as pushing hard for a short time (rest your hand against a wall for an hour, then punch it to see the difference) but this doesn?t mean more energy is going in than coming out. The first flashlight doesn?t light up enough for us to see it or it doesn?t light up at all because of the flashlight?s own inefficiency?s. This does not show that it is an over-unity device.

Also, it should be noted that the diagram showing the forces on the pendulum is wrong.  The force due to gravity does not change as the pendulum goes through its swing as indicated.  The force from gravity is constant (neglecting, of course, the fact that gravitational force decreases with the square of the distance, since the distances involved are so small as to be negligible). 

This is not an over unity device.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Dingus Mungus

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 861
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #196 on: December 28, 2006, 07:07:26 AM »
For those who are wanting to work on this:

WM2D free download:
http://www.design-simulation.com/WM2D/download.php

something semi-enticing:
(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1763.0;attach=4514)
(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1763.0;attach=4516)

NOTICE THE PENDULUMS MATCH VELOCITY! (no lost kinetic energy)

Now download it and go test your own configurations of this idea!

First off this is just a simulation so I understand that will be the first argument you'll fall back on, but it is important to acknowlegde that energy is being extracted from the lever and it removes no kinetic energy from the pendulum. Roll that arround in your head for a moment, and I mean really think about the physical forces acting on the two masses. Now there are three things too understand about my method of replication. First the lever is balanced, second the weights on each end are balanced when in full rest, third there is an exact duplicate pendulum running independant from the device to act as a baseline guide to examine transfer of kinetic energy to the lever thus slowing the pendulum.

So then the question is why would the lateral exesion of gravity on a unbalanced lever cause a pendulum to lose any energy... If you think about it, you should come to the conclution I did which is: there is no reason for any kinetic energy to be taken from the pendulum from any force but wind resistance and gravity provided the lever and pendulum are in a similar phase. Yet excitingly enough it does not remove the fact that the lever gains its own kinetic energy. Do you see where I'm going with this? The element that gives the lever its kinetic energy does not lose any extra kinetic energy of its own... No transfer of kinetic energy...

I will say this; I can not in anyway say this device is overunity, but I believe deeply that this is an example of a first law violation. If this idea was propperly nurtured and worked on by group of dedicated and inginuitive individuals this could be proven and perhaps even matured to an overunity status, but very few people know enough about the device and its operation to "know" anything for sure. I would venture to guess that you are not one of those few.

These technologies can never be developed if nay sayers dismiss them without doing their own extensive research. Since that was your first post I can only assume this is the first time you've even read this thread (did you also read the full patent and test logs?), and that you've done no actual research of your own (physical or simulation experiments). That an uneducated opinion. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but with all due respect it is the truth of the matter. If my assumption that this was the first time you've read anything about this device is wrong I applogise but thats usually the story.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. If you would like share evidence or an experiment that would prove my hypothysis of a first law violation false I would be quite intriged to hear more.

Offline Dingus Mungus

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 861
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2006, 07:12:32 AM »
check this out. i leave the system at equilibrium state and still the massive lever starts to pick up speed. and yes the air resistance is set to high. is it because of the horizontal track?

Did you use a duped pendulum to ensure that energy wasn't taken from the drop pendulum?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2006, 07:12:32 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline FreeEnergy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
    • HackersClub.NET
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #198 on: December 28, 2006, 07:25:55 AM »
check this out. i leave the system at equilibrium state and still the massive lever starts to pick up speed. and yes the air resistance is set to high. is it because of the horizontal track?

Did you use a duped pendulum to ensure that energy wasn't taken from the drop pendulum?

i don't remember and i could not save my work.

peace

Offline a19grey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #199 on: December 28, 2006, 10:16:32 AM »
Ok, Mungus, first, thanks for the chance to think about this. Also,  I wasn?t sure what you had meant by ?exesion? but I hate it when people complain about spelling or grammar mistakes instead of paying attention to the issue, so I?ve assumed you meant ?lateral expression of gravity.?

The motion of the lever does rob the pendulum of kinetic energy.  First, what causes the lever to lift up? Well, it?s an unbalanced lever so naturally it tends to fall with the right side (hammer-side) down and the left side (pendulum side) up. In other words, when there is no motion, there is a greater net downward force on the hammer side than on the pendulum side.   The hammer raises when the pendulum is in motion.  More specifically, it raises when the pendulum is on it?s downswing since this is when the pendulum is pulling downward the strongest (to prove this to yourself just hold out a pendulum on your arm, in my case I used my laptop charger).  So, what overcomes the net downward force on the right-side (hammer) is the increased downward force on the left side from the pendulum?s motion.  As the hammer swings up, the left side of the lever swings down which causes the entire motion of the pendulum to be shifted downward by this amount.  So, the falling of the pendulum causes the raising of the hammer, i.e. the pendulum loses gravitational potential energy and the hammer gains gravitational potential energy.  The pendulum then swings through the bottom of its swing and begins to swing upward; as it does this, the total downward force on the left side (from the pendulum) decreases, and the hammer falls. As the hammer falls it loses gravitational potential energy and the pendulum shifts upward- gaining gravitational potential energy.  The question now is, what happens as the hammer falls again.  Assuming we don?t care about doing any work, we put a perfect spring (one that does not lose energy to heat and obeys hooke?s law exactly)  under the hammer.  Now, with the spring in place, as the hammer falls, it gets bounced back up to the exact same height it started from. Assuming we have the spring so designed that the time it takes the hammer to bounce back up to its starting height is the same time as it takes the pendulum to go from the highest point (and lowest force) in its motion to the lowest point (highest force).  So, the hammer will be back at the top of its swing when the pendulum is pushing down the hardest and thus the hammer will raise up to a new height and fall back down to the spring with even more energy.  Every time the hammer raises higher, the pendulum falls down farther, an exact exchange of gravitational potential energy, until either the pendulum hits the floor or the hammer swings past 90o inclination.  So, the only way to make the hammer go up higher (and thus fall down with more energy) is to raise it up higher and the only way to do that is to make the pendulum?s motion shift downward.  Nothing special here; again, just a modified pulley system.

However, there is kinetic energy transfer between the two systems, the hammer and the pendulum.  Imagine a pendulum attached to a rod about which it is rotating without loss to any frictions.  If the rod is raised or lowered while the pendulum is in motion, the pendulum will continue rotating in the same way (same frequency and amplitude) just shifted up or down with the rod. In other words, the shift in the rod?s height doesn?t affect the kinetic energy of the pendulum attached to it.  The obvious case of this is if we have a motionless pendulum pointed straight downward and we move the rod up and down.  The pendulum bob won?t start to swing back and forth, it?ll just move up and down with the rod and string we?ve attached it to.
Now imagine the hammer; the only way the hammer can have useful energy (in this example) is from its kinetic energy. The only way (in this example) for the hammer to get that kinetic energy is to fall a certain distance.  The greater the distance, the higher the change in potential energy, the greater the kinetic energy. So, imagine the hammer/lever with the pendulum attached, but motionless, in its rest position (pointed straight downward).  If we raise and lower the hammer (with our hands, or whatever) the pendulum will begin to swing. Why?  The pendulum didn?t begin to swing earlier when I imagined it being raised up and down, but now the pendulum is swinging. This seems contradictory, but the difference is that the left end of the lever isn?t moving ?straight? but is rather following a slightly curved path since it is, of course, rotating about the fixed point in the middle. 
Therefore, if the hammer starts to do useful work (instead of hitting our perfect, perfectly timed spring form earlier) it will have to slow down (e.g. from hitting a flywheel or being in the presence of a magnetic drive, etc.).  Since now the hammer is slowing down it won?t be perfectly in sync with the motion of the pendulum and so there will be times when the hammer is falling and the pendulum is falling downward and to the right (or counterclockwise if that?s easier to keep straight;  in this part the direction of the pendulum?s falling is important).  The hammer falling downward causes the left end of the lever to raise (or rotate clockwise), but the pendulum is now rotating counter-clockwise and will thus be slowed since they are moving in opposite directions.  So, the hammer doing work, causes it to be out of sink with the pendulum and thus it ?robs? energy from the pendulum and causes it to slow down.

Also, I did look at some of the website?s data figures.  The first one:
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Measurement1.JPG

where he actually reports the sensational over-unity gain of 11.9% is a flawed experiment because he is measuring, again, force differences, not energy distances.  Without going into the details because this post is already the longest on this thread, I?ll note that the first key to realizing this confusion between force/energy is that the reported over-unity amount is exactly the same as the ratio between the two forces listed in 1) and 2) at the top of the image.

And yes, that was my first post and I apologize for any perceived flippancy.  I hope this helps and I?ll be happy to answer the questions that I?m sure will follow.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #199 on: December 28, 2006, 10:16:32 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline allcanadian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #200 on: December 29, 2006, 07:50:04 PM »
@ a19grey
Your rationalization of the pendulum system is quite good and very conventional, but incorrect.
Here is why, you have delegated all working forces to the bottom of the pendulum stroke where gravitational forces and centrifugal forces combine, what if 99% of the pendulum stroke was conservative and did no work in the system? what then?
We know all about pendulums don't we? We know and can predict what a pendulum will do when attached to a lever, any grade school student can do this- nothing new here.
The question you have not asked is what happens when all accelerations on the pendulum have stopped at the top of each stroke? The system does not produce work from the forces developed during 99% of the pendulum swing, but from a very small window when a mass (pendulum)becomes massless in the system.
As well most everyone has assumed the hammer side must move a substantial amount of distance, what if the hammer side moved only 1/8 inch, and only when the pendulum became massless in the system during 1% of it's stoke.
If you really want to understand this concept stop asking how this relates to known systems? and start asking how it is different.
And why, like wesley Gary, did it take Milkovic years to perfect a seemingly simple machine, which you have supposedly mastered in one afternoon?
Let's apply some more logic here, which is more likely?
-That Milkovic has worked years and has multiple patents on a technology that you and anyone can disprove in a matter of hours.
OR - you have missed something.
This put's things in perspective I think

Offline supersam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #201 on: December 29, 2006, 08:00:56 PM »
hey grey,

have you taken into consideration the whip action of the lever moving up and down?  apparently not!  if that action is not enough for you to get to the most efficient machine you have ever seen then hang another pendulum off the bottom of the first pendulum and see what happens.  i bet you get her a swinging then.  i think you must be out of your mind with math if you can't see it then.

lol
sam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #201 on: December 29, 2006, 08:00:56 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline supersam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #202 on: December 29, 2006, 09:36:15 PM »
hey grey,

ask an astronaunt, gravity doesn't work with standard mathmatics!! just try it and see, the light!!!!

lol
sam

Offline supersam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #203 on: December 29, 2006, 10:54:04 PM »
hmmm!

what do you think about that tri occilator now?  whappaw!

lol
sam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #203 on: December 29, 2006, 10:54:04 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline a19grey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #204 on: December 29, 2006, 11:58:20 PM »
@allcanadian
Yes, I did make an oversimplification by only referring to the pendulum when it was at the bottom of its swing. However, this does not invalidate what I?ve said.  Any time the downward force from the pendulum is greater than the net downward force on the right (hammer side) the hammer moves up.  This would happen for some range of the pendulum?s swing around the bottom point.  The hammer falls whenever the pendulum is outside this range because the downward force from the pendulum is less than the downward force from the hammer side.  Without knowing the exact weights, lengths, and speed of the pendulum in the example, this range of angles can?t be determined exactly.

So, the hammer moves for more than 1% of the stroke. It accelerates any time there is a net force on the right side which happens at all times except for the instant that the force from the pendulum exactly cancels the force from the right side of the lever/hammer.  Therefore, the pendulum does work (through the raising and lowering of the hammer) throughout its motion.  Of course, the net difference in the work is 0 since when the hammer is raising, the pendulum does positive work, and when the hammer is lowering the pendulum does negative work.  This isn?t conservative work though since there is (as always) that damned friction at play.       

Also, at the top of its swing, the pendulum DOES have accelerations on it.  In fact, the acceleration on the pendulum is greatest at the top of its swing, and least at the bottom of it?s swing.  This is because the acceleration on the pendulum is the difference between the z-component (straight up and down direction) of the centripetal force and the force of gravity.  When the pendulum is at the top of it?s swing, the centripetal force is the most out-of-line with the directly downward force of gravity and thus there is the highest acceleration at this point.  The reason the pendulum seems to ?hang? there as if it were massless is that at the top of its swing, for exactly an instant, the pendulum has zero velocity.  If, in fact, at the top of it?s swing there was no acceleration (and it?s clear since it changes direction that it has no velocity at this point) then the pendulum would hang at that point forever.  It would have no velocity, nor any acceleration, therefore it wouldn?t move.

Also, in my first post I made the point that the key to understanding this system is that the hammer does move such a short distance compared to the distance over which the pendulum moves.

@supersam
Please excuse me, but I?m afraid I don?t understand what exactly you mean by the ?whip action? of the lever.  That said, I would admit that this is an extremely efficient and possibly useful machine. I just don?t believe it is overunity.
Also, I?m not sure what you mean by the statement that gravity does not work with standard mathematics.  One, I would note that standard mathematics was sufficient to get the astronauts into space. Secondly, note that I didn?t actually use any mathematics, standard or otherwise, in any of my explanations of this system.

Offline allcanadian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #205 on: December 30, 2006, 02:27:22 AM »
@ a19grey
Your arguement is true that gravitational acceleration is maximum at the top of the swing, but when the pendulum stops it falls into the realm of freefalling bodies, relative to the point of rotation and the z axis the pedulum has no mass and no acceleration relative to the system(the point of rotation). When the hammer falls the point of rotation of the pedulum moves upward with the pendulum so there is zero relative velocity between the two, hence no interaction. Supersam was refering to the fact that if the point of rotation was rising faster than the pendulum there is a swing effect, imagine yourself on a swing and just past the bottom someone pulled the point of rotation upward, the swing accelerates upward -because of the interaction.
In any case there has been absolutely no research done on this subject, Duel oscillator pendulum systems, I have checked. The closest papers I could find stated the complexities involved would require a supercomputer to analyse. So anyone stating this is impossible is basing it on opinion only, which we know rarely resembles reality. I can't get around the fact that hundreds of man hours and thousands of dollars have been spent by Milkovik on patents and machinery- for a hoax? That everyone seems so willing to disprove without facts? I find it a little hard to swallow personally, so I will assume there may be something here, remember at one point the world was flat and then it wasn't.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #205 on: December 30, 2006, 02:27:22 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline a19grey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #206 on: December 30, 2006, 02:56:26 AM »
Hey, I hadn't realized we were using other reference frames.  I'll give a real response later, but the whole thing has reminded me of this comic which I find incredibly funny.

http://xkcd.com/c123.html

Offline nwman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #207 on: December 30, 2006, 03:50:12 AM »
@allcanadian

 I agree. By best guess if this isn't an OU device is that it is simply a form of pulley. However, its complexity is more then I can calculate/visualize in my head. With so many parts moving inside of parts it makes it vary difficult for a novice like myself to analyze the machine in with a vector diagram. One thing the bugs me about it though is there hasn't been any conclusive tests that show power input to power output. Given the timing that needed in the device I see how it would be hard to test. I still haven't thought of an idea that would really test the power yet. Keep thinking!

Tim

Offline corpsegravy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #208 on: December 30, 2006, 08:33:02 AM »
The really interesting aspect of this machine is that it operates more efficiently the more it's loaded rather than less.  Damping effects arent transmitted to the pendulum.  If anything they make it run longer.

If you only saw the example of the machine being used as a hammer, you saw the most inefficient application.  Nearly all the energy is just absorbed by the anvil.

The rotational/tortional pendulum action of the lever has a period that can be tuned to the period of the swinging pendulum to allow the system to reinforce itself and run longer.

I'm still curious how much DC electricity can be rectified if a bar magnet is hung from the lever and allowed to bob up and down in a coil of wire.

Offline FreeEnergy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
    • HackersClub.NET
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #209 on: December 30, 2006, 01:14:35 PM »
what if we set a pendulum swinging in vacuum?

 

OneLink