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New theories about free energy systems => Theory of overunity and free energy => Topic started by: dieter on February 19, 2018, 02:06:28 AM

Title: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 19, 2018, 02:06:28 AM

Hi everybody, it has been a while since I last wrote something on this Forum.


But of course I was still thinking about ways to Free Energy. At some point I was realizing that there is a tremendous  contradiction, a very irritating fact about the Back-EMF. I was also surprised that seemingly noone ever wrote or spoke about it, at least not that I've heared of.




So, what is it then? Well, glad you ask...


Back-EMF Manifesto


By Dieter Marfurt.


Any electrician and many people in general know, that a device that consumes a high wattage has a low electrical resistance. It is one of those fundamentals:


The lower the resistance of the load, the more energy "consumed". And the higher the resistance, the less energy it will "consume".



Actually, this is just the amount of current the device does let flow trough itself to the Minus pole of the supply.


Now Imagine a coil that has a big Back-EMF spike. You pulse it with a pulse-lenght that is just enough to "load" or saturate the coil. This way most of the energy that went into the coil as pulses, will flow back to the supply. No matter how many Amps are bouncing back and forth here, power consumption will be near zero, very comparable to a transformer with no load attached to the secondary. (Assuming our supply is able to utilize the Back-EMF, of course, by caps, or a chargable battery etc.)




So basicly, we are using the voltage of the supply to lure the current into the magnetic field of the coil. We do not allow the current to reach the negative pole of the supply. At least most of it won't reach it.


And yet, we have a pulsed high power cirquit here, indeed current flow.


Now here's the deal:


If we attach a Load between the coil and the supply positive side so that it shall be energized by our cirquit, then the following becomes true:


The higher the resistance of the load, the more Energy will be "consumed".
And the lower the resistance of the load, the less energy is "consumed".



This is, because with a low resistance of the load, more of the Back-EMF will finally reach back to the power supply or battery.


So, theoreticly, two heaters in parallel will consume less energy than only one.




There is a reason why we have seen so many "Anomalies" with Back-EMFs involved.


So there it is,the key in plain sight.


Furthermore, instead of a power supply, an other coil could be used as the "supply", this would reduce losses by battery/cap charging/uncharging greatly (lead acid batteries lose half of the energy in that cycle, just like caps, most other batteries are even worse). A coil could be an interesting energy storage device, efficiency-wise.


I hope these of my thoughts are useful for any good folks out there and I wish you a pleasent journey.


Dieter



Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: forest on February 19, 2018, 10:06:39 AM
Quote
If we attach a Load between the coil and the supply positive side so that it shall be energized by our cirquit, then the following becomes true:[/size]The higher the resistance of the load, the more Energy will be "consumed".
And the lower the resistance of the load, the less energy is "consumed".
This is, because with a low resistance of the load, more of the Back-EMF will finally reach back to the power supply or battery.


Please draw schematic, because if you place load along the coil in series connection then it is the same as ordinary one, I think you mean : place load at the back-emf spike path ?
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 19, 2018, 10:43:20 AM
Hi Forest.


Of course, the load sits in a separated back EMF path. Even tho, it may also work in the forward path if the load is not inductive, not capacitive and pf extremly low resistance. But, yes, it's better in the back path, so the coil can load unhindered..


Thanks for reading btw.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: ariovaldo on February 19, 2018, 01:28:09 PM
Someone wanna try?


10.5"diameter


Old medium voltage CT core.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 19, 2018, 05:19:25 PM
Now, that really is some inductance...
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2018, 10:00:22 PM

the time constant is an issue....how will you circumvent it?


3Mv electric-field, pulsed at 925Hz
phaseshifted by variable inductance
to dialate local time-space around the machine.


Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tomd on February 19, 2018, 10:23:16 PM

Please draw schematic, because if you place load along the coil in series connection then it is the same as ordinary one, I think you mean : place load at the back-emf spike path ?

Where is the "back-emf spike path"? Do you mean parallel to the coil?
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: TinselKoala on February 20, 2018, 02:17:51 AM
Didn't anyone notice this howler?

Quote
So, theoreticly, two heaters in parallel will consume less energy than only one.

But of course we know that this isn't true at all, and conventional electrical theory conforms with the results of experiments in this matter (agrees with past and correctly predicts future experimental results).

So there is something terribly wrong with your "theory".
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 22, 2018, 02:48:41 AM
Didn't anyone notice this howler?But of course we know that this isn't true at all, and conventional electrical theory conforms with the results of experiments in this matter (agrees with past and correctly predicts future experimental results). So there is something terribly wrong with your "theory".
[/font]Something? Something. Funny.But I am not here to talk to little minds nor to play with puppies..Great minds may read my words and understand, silently.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 22, 2018, 02:58:53 AM
Where is the "back-emf spike path"? Do you mean parallel to the coil?
When the Pulse ends, the current reverses direction. The Voltage is higher in the coil than in the power supply, therefor that is a potential diffrence, the coil charges the supply for a brief moment.
You can use Diodes to make this reverse current flow over a diffrent path. Sometimes called Flyback Diode.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 22, 2018, 03:15:22 AM
As far as I see, this has been confirmed to some degree eg. by Gotoluc and Woopyjump, even tho they did not draw this fundamental conclusion.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 22, 2018, 04:31:01 AM
When the Pulse ends, the current reverses direction. The Voltage is higher in the coil than in the power supply, therefor that is a potential diffrence, the coil charges the supply for a brief moment.
You can use Diodes to make this reverse current flow over a diffrent path. Sometimes called Flyback Diode.

When the pulse ends, the current from the coil afterwards is in the same direction as it was during the pulse.

When the pulse current is applied, the field of the coil is building outwards, and that field cuts the windings of the coil causing a reverse influence of the input current, CEMF, which causes the delay in the coil to reach max current from the input. The higher the inductance, the longer it takes to get to max current/max field. Now when the pulse current is taken away, that field that was built collapses inward of the coil, opposite to when it was building. So now the collapsing field is cutting the windings inward causing the current in the coil to be in the same direction as was the input pulse.

I had thought the same as you back some years ago. But no, the current developed in the coil after the pulse is taken away IS in the same direction as was the input currents. The 'back emf' statements can confuse us into thinking as you are, as did it me, back then.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2018, 11:49:46 AM
 author=dieter link=topic=17611.msg516959#msg516959 date=1519264733]
 

Quote
When the Pulse ends, the current reverses direction.

Wrong.
The current continues to flow in the same direction through the coil during the inductive kickback part of the cycle/when the source current is disconnected..

Only the voltage inverts across the coil when the source is disconnected.

Quote
the coil charges the supply for a brief moment.

No it dose not,as the current flow will be in the wrong direction through the coil,when the coil is disconnected from the current source.

Quote
You can use Diodes to make this reverse current flow over a different path.

There is no reverse current.


Brad.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 22, 2018, 12:00:34 PM
Hi Mags,


As much as I appreciate an opinion that is against accepted beliefs, here you arr definitely wrong.


Just add two diodes at the positive supply side of your coil, one into the coil, and one out of the coil. In the path from out of the coil to the positive Supply (don't say I have to explain Diodes) you add an LED, with positive/long pin tobthr diode side.


If your statement were true, the LED may not be lit, never. But it is.


That's all I can say about that and maybe, this, verified by myself and many others (that back emf current flows backwards) us if such a basic knowledge level, that I normally don't feel obliged to explain it. Especially since I just mentioned the potential diffrence. An understanding of the concept of potential diffrence is assumed, as it fits in one sentense: Current flows from high to low potential.


Do the experiment again. Note: there is also a feature of current inertia, meaning flowing current wants to keep on flowing ( and can therefor even arc between contacts if disconnected). This may not be confused with Back-EMF from a collapsing magnetic field. If your test coil has low back EMF features, you may have mixed up the two effects.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2018, 12:10:28 PM
 author=Magluvin link=topic=17611.msg516966#msg516966 date=1519270261]


Quote
When the pulse current is applied, the field of the coil is building outwards, and that field cuts the windings of the coil causing a reverse influence of the input current, CEMF, which causes the delay in the coil to reach max current from the input.

What is the reverse influence Mags?

Quote
The higher the inductance, the longer it takes to get to max current/max field. Now when the pulse current is taken away, that field that was built collapses inward of the coil, opposite to when it was building. So now the collapsing field is cutting the windings inward causing the current in the coil to be in the same direction as was the input pulse.

Are you sure it's a magnetic field?

If we take a toroid core inductor for example-->is not the magnetic field contained within the core?
If so,then what field is collapsing inward around the wire ?

Quote
The 'back emf' statements can confuse us into thinking as you are, as did it me, back then.

EMF is measured in volts--has nothing to do with current.

Brad
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 22, 2018, 12:26:54 PM
Oh, and also important: the voltage height of the back-EMF highly depends on coil design, and therefor, the current will only flow backwards if it reaches a voltage higher than that of the supply. If it doesn't then, by means of logic, you are right. But it usually is higher. Often a multiple of the supply voltage.
Also important is a clean cutoff of the forward pulse.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2018, 01:19:58 PM
Oh, and also important: the voltage height of the back-EMF highly depends on coil design, and therefor, the current will only flow backwards if it reaches a voltage higher than that of the supply. If it doesn't then, by means of logic, you are right. But it usually is higher. Often a multiple of the supply voltage.
Also important is a clean cutoff of the forward pulse.

First of all,your mixing up BEMF with inductive kickback.

Second---> 

Quote
the voltage height of the back-EMF highly depends on coil design, and therefor, the current will only flow backwards if it reaches a voltage higher than that of the supply.

Where can i get one of these overunity coils?.

To clear things up

BEMF is normally used when talking about the generating effect of electric motors.

CEMF is normally what we use when talking about inductors and coils.
The CEMF is of the same polarity as the current source that created it,but is always a lower value.
If it were the same value as the source EMF,then no current would flow.

Inductive kickback refers to the self induced EMF across any inductor/coil,when the source of the current to the coil is broken/interrupted/disconnected.
This self induced EMF from the inductive kickback,is of the opposite polarity to that of the current source that created it.


Brad
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: PiCéd on February 22, 2018, 02:40:27 PM
~2.64 watts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh6SBmwDsfk
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 23, 2018, 12:24:53 AM
author=Magluvin link=topic=17611.msg516966#msg516966 date=1519270261]


What is the reverse influence Mags?

Are you sure it's a magnetic field?

If we take a toroid core inductor for example-->is not the magnetic field contained within the core?
If so,then what field is collapsing inward around the wire ?

EMF is measured in volts--has nothing to do with current.

Brad

"What is the reverse influence Mags?"

Well after 'reverse influence' I have a comma and then I write CEMF, Counter 'Electro' Motive force' .  Not sure what is so hard to understand about that. ???


"Are you sure it's a magnetic field?"

Are you 'sure' it is something else? If so then please explain and or provide proofs otherwise. ;)


"If we take a toroid core inductor for example-->is not the magnetic field contained within the core?
If so,then what field is collapsing inward around the wire ?"

For one, I dont believe that the magnetic field is only contained in the core of a toroid transformer/inductor.  My view of it is that the mag fields of the windings engage the core cutting across the hole in the middle of the core, thus cutting any other windings that also go through that hole..  And my view is that most all of the interactions between the windings happen in the hole of the toroid core. Ive said it before many times as to what i think on this stuff and nobody has presented any evidence to get me to think otherwise other than 'conjecture'. So maybe you have some proofs that can 'prove' me wrong as you are that one stating that the field only exists in the core.


"EMF is measured in volts--has nothing to do with current."

I get what you are trying to convey with that statement. What you are trying to say is that a changing magnetic field on a wire produces voltage in the wire and not causing moving currents in the wire of which could influence the voltages that we can read across that wire. E fields, right?  Show me proof.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 23, 2018, 12:54:20 AM
Oh, and also important: the voltage height of the back-EMF highly depends on coil design, and therefor, the current will only flow backwards if it reaches a voltage higher than that of the supply. If it doesn't then, by means of logic, you are right. But it usually is higher. Often a multiple of the supply voltage.
Also important is a clean cutoff of the forward pulse.

"Also important is a clean cutoff of the forward pulse."

That statement is key to getting the reversal you speak of. Im glad you stated it. ;)

I have gone over this before.  And I can agree that you have to have an absolutely clean cutoff in order to enable the possibility of an actual reverse current after cutoff.

Imaging this....  We apply input to the coil. Then we have a not so clean cutoff where a spark happens across the switch opening. That spark is part of the continued forward current I speak of.  So with an absolutely clean cutoff, the field collapse still generates a forward current, at first, but with the clean cutoff the self capacitance of the coil takes on the high voltage produced by the field collapse. Once it is peaked, it does a reversal like an LC resonator. Now when we had that clean cutoff, there was 'nowhere' for that voltage produced by the collapse to dissipate to other than the coil. So if you have an absolutely clean cutoff, and provide a path for the reverse currents to exit the coil after the forward current has peaked, then yes, you will have what you claim and I am in complete agreement with you that it can be had.

It would be a much easier conversation if you could show what you are doing to get the results you claim, as I can agree that it is possible you are getting reverse currents back to the source using a clean cutoff, but as to getting more back than you have put in, I cannot agree with that yet until you show it.

Ive been through this subject a lot over the years.  Im not here to claim that you are wrong, yet, because I dont know for sure what you are doing to get your results you claim.  Your statement of the 'clean cutoff' is where I have to agree with you 100%. But it is my contention that there is first a forward current in the coil before there is a reversal as you claim and it is not just only a reversal after the cutoff.  You can demonstrate this to yourself on any simulator as in a simulator a switch can give you that clean cutoff as you describe provided that in the sim your switch parameters can be set for infinite ohms when open. Then put the sim scope across the coil and you will see a forward spike and then the reverse spike..  And you can set up the circuit with a diode that can capture the forward spike and you wont see the reverse spike at all, demonstrating that the forward currents do happen firstly.  ;)

Can you show us what you have going on so we can understand it better? It would be easier on everyone. 

Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 23, 2018, 02:17:58 AM
Glad you agree with me in that point, Magluvin.[/size]


It's a thought, a logical conclusion. There is no "circuit".


Ok, so let's say there is a reverse current flow.
It recharges the battery or helps the supply caps, right?


Now, isn't it simply logical, that when you put a low resistance in that back path, more energy will get trough and back to the supply battery than over a high resistance? Is 1+1=2? I really tried to explain this core feature, It is the exact opposite of conventional energy consumption theory.


@tinman, check your backend, your overunity coil (wich I never termed) may be deep in there - so much about zynicism. :P


Again Magluvin, I probably would do this:


Use a Mosfet or NPN Transistor such as a Darlington TIP122 to open and close the Exit of the coil. So you could use some Signal Generator with squarewave, frequency and PWM to search for sweetspots. From Emitter to Collector goes a high power, fast Schottky Diode. Transistors break trough reversly at -12vdc, actually a zener effect, or may get fried, so this flyback diode allows reverse current, while the transistor inhibits forward when base=0vdc. Darlingtons give you a steep on and off curve, the tip122 amplifies current from the base by 1000x, so no problems to fully open that one with a few mA signals. Although, not a high frequency transistor, may work up to 1000hz.
So this is what's at the "Back End" of the coil, the side towards ground.
At the front end of the coil are similar Schottky diodes, an Avrabmenko Plug ( or however that is spelled), which redirects reverse current to a separate path. So one Diode for the juice from the supply to the coil, and the other one from the same coil front end to the experimental load and the to the supply.


Certainly, you need powerfull pulses and a huge coil to drive a significat load.


This is just one possible approach. But the Theorem stands by its own, simply because it's logical.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 23, 2018, 10:06:57 AM
 author=Magluvin link=topic=17611.msg517033#msg517033 date=1519341893]
 


Quote
I get what you are trying to convey with that statement. What you are trying to say is that a changing magnetic field on a wire produces voltage in the wire and not causing moving currents in the wire of which could influence the voltages that we can read across that wire. E fields, right?

No,not saying that at all.

Im saying it is the electric field that induces an EMF across a wire--not the magnetic field.

The magnetic field is a bi-product of current flowing through a conductor--no current--no magnetic field-->but still an EMF  ;)

Quote
For one, I dont believe that the magnetic field is only contained in the core of a toroid transformer/inductor.  My view of it is that the mag fields of the windings engage the core cutting across the hole in the middle of the core, thus cutting any other windings that also go through that hole..  And my view is that most all of the interactions between the windings happen in the hole of the toroid core. Ive said it before many times as to what i think on this stuff and nobody has presented any evidence to get me to think otherwise other than 'conjecture'. So maybe you have some proofs that can 'prove' me wrong as you are that one stating that the field only exists in the core.

It is my belief that the B field is confined to the core.
A secondary winding,where the windings pass through the middle of the toroid core-well away from the core it self,will have an induced EMF from the electric field-not the magnetic field.
When a load is placed across this secondary winding,a current starts to flow through this winding,and only then is a magnetic field produced around that secondary winding.

Can i prove this-->sure can.

Fore many years now,all seem to believe that the magnetic field is a must have,in order to produce current flow.
I say the magnetic field is a Bi-product of current flow,and an impedance on our electrical systems.

It is my belief that if we could remove this magnetic waste,then we would open up a whole new can of worm's-so to speak.

But problem is,we have had this drummed into us for the past 200 years,and we know no other way-->why,because we have not been looking--everyone is happy with the way thing are--how they have been told it is.


Brad
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 23, 2018, 11:47:39 AM
Have to get to work. Ill reply to this one later today. Its not a short reply.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 23, 2018, 12:09:08 PM
Quote
The magnetic field is a bi-product of current flowing through a conductor--no current--no magnetic field-->but still an EMF  [/size]


I have a slightly diffrent understanding of this particular issue:


Once the current is actually flowing trough the inductor, the magnetic field is only trapped, but it us it's built up while the current started trying to flow, due to the voltage, but actually flew "into" the magnetic field, and not over the dc-resistance of the coil to ground. Current is converted to a magnetic field. The magnetic field holds a certain amount of energy this way. No surprise that when this field vanishes due to Pulse end, this change of magnetic field strength induces current in the very same coil, although in reverse direction.
This corresponds to the fact, that voltage is immediately there trough the entire coil, but current flow starts at zero and, depending on inductance and impedance, takes some time to rise up to what flows under a dc condition. For instance, if you have a transformer, the primary is at 220vac hot wire, but not connected to the neutral line (turned of by a switch, while hot wire and neutral by mistake swapped, so there is no current flow in the primary, you still can measure the Voltage at the secondary.


So I'd say the magnetic field is not a Biproduct of current flow per se, it is more like a mandatory depot that the current must only initially provide, in order to flow at all. This Depot however is not neccessarily lost - normally it just flows back to the supply. The voltage of the reverse current depends on the coil architecture, not the supply, as does the duration of this back "pulse".
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 23, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
And about the use of the term "Back-EMF", the reverse current of a collapsing field, as well as the inductive impact of a secondary field like in a motor (Lenz Drag etc.) it's both the same thing, only the cause is a diffrent one. Back- electromotive  force simply means, a force that drives the current in the opposite direction, not neccessarily against a forward current.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 23, 2018, 02:23:59 PM
 author=dieter link=topic=17611.msg517053#msg517053 date=1519386197]

And about the use of the term "Back-EMF", the reverse current of a collapsing field

No-that is not BEMF-->that is inductive kickback,or flyback as some call it,and the current flow is in the same direction as it was when connected to the source.

 as well as the inductive impact of a secondary field like in a motor (Lenz Drag etc.) it's both the same thing, only the cause is a diffrent one.

No,they are not the same thing at all.

,
Quote
Back- electromotive  force simply means, a force that drives the current in the opposite direction,

Wrong again.
BEMF is the self induced EMF an electric motor produces.
The lower the BEMF value,the higher the value of current an electric motor will draw.
The higher the BEMF value,the lower the value of current the motor will draw.

And what makes this harder,is bullshit like this
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force.html--> For example, the voltage drop across an inductor is due to the induced magnetic field inside the coil.[1][2] The voltage's polarity is at every moment the reverse of the input voltage.

What a crock of shit that is.
The CEMFs polarity is the same as the sources polarity--not bloody opposite/reverse.
If it were opposite,then we would have a huge current draw as soon as we attached the source voltage.Just take two 1.5 volt batteries,and connect them so as the negative of one is connected to the positive of the other,then connect the remaining two end to each other--so connect the two batteries in series-->then see what happens.

Only when the source EMF is disconnected,do we get a reverse voltage across the coil,as the field is now collapsing.

No wonder so many people have a hard time trying to work all this out,when you have idiots posting shit like that on websites all over the internet.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 23, 2018, 04:04:20 PM
Au contraire, Brad.


Look: When a coil attracts a magnet and thebmagnet gets closer, it's increasing fieldstrength seen from the coil causes inductive coupling that is REPULSING the coil, as Lenz's law holds true. So, to oroduce attraction in a coil you need one polarity, to oroduce repulsion you need thr other polarity - in the same one coil. No matter whether the current is induced via Lenz Law or simply by wires attached.
Once these two current directions fight afaonst eachother in the coil, of course, this means increased RESISTANCE for the current that comes from the wire, and hence, as you stated, less current draw, WHILE THE MOTOR SLOWS DOWN and to maintain the RPM and torque, you will need to increase the Power from the supply to the coil.


This isn't so much about you being wrong, but much more about a somewhat pathetic attitude to jump in and call people idiots, "proofing" that every word they say is wrong while diverging from the thread subject.


If such a mood issue is something infective around here, then I am seriously concerned about this forum.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: citfta on February 23, 2018, 06:06:34 PM
Dieter,

If you will read all the way through the following thread you will understand that the current does NOT reverse when the field collapses.  And the proper term is inductive kickback NOT back EMF.  There are many of us on this forum that have many many hours of research time on our benches.  As Brad has been trying to tell you your ideas are not supported by the test results.  This thread will help you get a better understanding of coil inductance and field collapse.

http://overunity.com/16203/inductive-kickback/#.WpBI2rNG3IU

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tomd on February 23, 2018, 10:14:37 PM
This article explains clearly the effects of a collapsing magnetic field.
First you have the emf/current (in the direction of the original applied voltage source) induced from the collapsing magnetic field.
Second as a result of the current from the collapsing magnetic field there is a cemf against the direction of the induced emf and therefore against the original voltage source.

"Finally, the applied voltage is removed--made to equal Zero (Vapplied = 0 volts); the steady-state Magnetic Field now starts to collapse, which induces an E.M.F into the inductor thus causing a Current to flow (of the same polarity as that of the original applied voltage source). As in the applied case there is a Counter E.M.F. generated by the Current generated from the collapsing Magnetic Field, again impeding the collapse of said Magnetic Field."

http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_rlc-l.htm (http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_rlc-l.htm)
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 24, 2018, 12:09:22 AM
This article explains clearly the effects of a collapsing magnetic field.
First you have the emf/current (in the direction of the original applied voltage source) induced from the collapsing magnetic field.
Second as a result of the current from the collapsing magnetic field there is a cemf against the direction of the induced emf and therefore against the original voltage source.

" As in the applied case there is a Counter E.M.F. generated by the Current generated from the collapsing Magnetic Field, again impeding the collapse of said Magnetic Field."

http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_rlc-l.htm (http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_rlc-l.htm)

Quote
Finally, the applied voltage is removed--made to equal Zero (Vapplied = 0 volts); the steady-state Magnetic Field now starts to collapse, which induces an E.M.F into the inductor thus causing a Current to flow (of the same polarity as that of the original applied voltage source).

No
When the applied voltage is removed,the collapsing !magnetic ?! field induces a voltage across the coil that is of the opposite polarity to that of the source voltage.
The current will continue to flow in the same direction.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 24, 2018, 12:18:31 AM
 author=dieter link=topic=17611.msg517059#msg517059 date=1519398260]


Quote
This isn't so much about you being wrong, but much more about a somewhat pathetic attitude to jump in and call people idiots, "proofing" that every word they say is wrong while diverging from the thread subject.

When i referred to !idiots!,i was referring to those that post web pages full of garbage.

I have not diverged from the subject--which is Back-EMF Manifesto -->something you continue to mix up with inductive kickback,which it is not.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2018, 04:51:29 AM
Here is where I am with the various 'emf's' we are discussing.....

For some strange reason, going to electronics at a vo-tech school 10th through 12th grade, and then 2 years at Electronic institute of Pittsburgh, all back in the early 80s, I had gotten the impression that the currents produced in the coil after taking away the input were reverse currents, never really thinking or even getting close to considering the FE ideas back then of such presented on this and other sites. We didnt cover that in votech with solenoids, relays and switching supplies. We didnt really do much in the supply area in Pittsburg either. Just solenoids and relays using snubbers to dissipate the coils self developed emf's when power was taken away. It was strange in a way that I was sure that it was a reverse current that the diodes were redirecting back into the coils, for reasons that the HV developed could harm a driving transistor or other sensitive circuitry. If they had conveyed the ideals properly and I just had it wrong, well I have to assume that it was the words flyback and back/counter/reverse emf that jilted me. Naturally they might have some influence, as we have seen over the years here, including me, on the idea that the currents out of the coil were reversed when power is taken away. All the "we would want to keep these hv potentials from feeding 'back' into the circuit" etc, etc. Had me going until around 10yrs ago and I was in utter shock to find out and test otherwise. Maybe it was that I didnt grip the importance of thinking on electron flow all the time in this game and just put more effort into + and - and paying attn to voltage/current limits and such in circuits. It wasnt really until I was jolted by actual facts that it is now a first and foremost thing to be concerned with in all electrical/electronic things that I en devour in to now, for the last 10 years. Either schools were just that bad at getting us to be on the the 'first and foremosts", or I was just a 'you big dummy', as Fred Sanford says. ;D But over the last 10 years, I have seen many many many others that seemed to be in the same position and train of thought that I was in. MANY!. I mean how can this be with sooo many others also? Are, or were we all just big dummy's? Why is it that soo many have the idea that the currents out of the coil are reverse of what was being put in? Fly'back'? Reverse emf? back emf? Even 'counter' emf???  Even well knowing that a diode would only conduct with the neg potential at the cathode and positive at the anode and still not seeing the kind of simple puzzle that the circuit of the coil and snubber and input circuit represent. I cant remember all the exact details of the learning sessions on the use of snubbers on relay and solenoid coils, but I do recollect that we didnt stick with that subject much longer than to just understand that the diode was necessary to protect other circuitry the coil was involved with from the hv potential of the coils when input was disengaged from the coil and then we moved on. Switching supplies and dc to dc converters were most likely just coming into play in the 80s to blend in as common electronics knowledge then, as I dont recall any of that really. Or, I just didnt take a lot of interest in it and just did what I did to pass the grade. I dunno.  But I was definitely in the belief that the output of the coils was a reverse flow of currents compared to the input.

I didnt get into doing anything really with electronics other than my own things till I was 26. Job at vcr/electronics repair shop. Bout 7 years and then car audio got me hooked. Like I got good at fixing car amps, with switching supplies, and vcrs had them also, but it never dawned on me as to visualizing the current flow in the operations of these circuits, but I knew how to fix them, thinking I fully understood them. Like I understood polarities and specs for transistors, diodes, caps. I understood ratios of step up and down transformers and the like, but never went as deep into it all till I came here and was corrected. I argued it at first and for some time. And searching for the truth forced me into a position of having to look deeper to find out what was what. But now I know.

I consider back emf and counter emf and reverse emf to not have anything to do with the coils output when the input is removed. Counter/back/reverse emf is the emf developed in the coil by way of self induction and the cause of the delay from the 'time' the input was applied to the coil, up until the point of max field and max currents reached dictated by the resistance of the coil/circuit.  Cemf, the term I prefer, as it most resembles the 'opposition'(counter) to the input of the coil that makes the coils self induction 'impede' the input during a period of time depending on the inductance value. After truly finding out these things, I made my own terms that I use here at times for the coils current outputs. Field(magnetic) Collapse Currents or even FEMF for Forward EMF. I prefer to call them Collapse Currents as I understand that the opposition(impedance) to input is due to the 'outward' growing magnetic fields of each winding cutting all the other windings, and when the input is taken away, that field collapses inward thus producing forward currents in the coil, opposite of the previous cemf opposition currents developed when the field was initially expanding outward and impeding the input. So yes! Absolutely! When the input is taken away from the coil, the output currents of that coil are forward going currents in reference to the initial input current that was taken away. To me this is ingrained. This is fact. This is real. I can see it in my mind. I see the fields expand and collapse. I see the currents flow in the circuit in my head.

Flyback is a term that was developed to describe the flyback of the trace in a crt of an oscilloscope or a television set. Somehow I suppose that the flyback transformer maybe had some ideological influence on bringing the term to life elsewhere in electronics. But I dont consider it to be an actual term we should use when considering pulsing coils and what and which way the currents flow in the process.

When I truly found that the coils output was actually forward and not reverse, I freaked. I was all up into a conspiracy of it all. I was angry! I thought, 'what was it that they taught me back then? Were they hiding something??? And why?? Was there a secret to FE there??  I mean really if you think about how many others have had the same false conclusions over the years here alone, maybe there was a conspiracy to it all. ???   But these days I just believe it is just a mass misunderstanding that has/had come about due to the not really knowing what these 'emf' terms mean, along with the toss in of the term flyback, that seems to instill the ideas into peoples heads most likely before they really get into firstly visualizing the electron/current flows and magnetic field expanding and collapsing functions during the circuit operations. Yup. Im nuts. Im seeing things. :o ;D

I visualize the current flows. I visualize the mag fields building, collapsing and interactions. In 'this business' it is a must. Fixing vcr's, amps, tv's, etc, it is not necessary to visualize that way of such things.  But it is a requirement when developing things and designing parts, coils, semiconductors, OU devices, etc. And here we are. ;)

So people that want to dip their toes in these waters need to dig in and try to get into having those visions of electron/current flows, and magnetic fields, physics of all natures necessary to understand things 'here' and be able to discern whats real and whats fake or even identify others and your own mistakes along the way.

Ok.  Nuff said for me on that today.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2018, 05:11:31 AM
And I think Falstads Circuit Sim, which shows current flow in the circuits operations is a great tool for learning to visualize the current flow in circuits.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2018, 05:40:23 AM
Now, very quickly as I have a job to work on tonight, below is how I see the way mag fields engage the core of a toroid or any closed loop core and how the fields of a say primary winding on the left side of the core can 'cut' a secondary on the right side of the core. All the action is in the hole of the core, other than leakage on the outer sides. ;D So no, I dont believe that the mag field is only in the core.  The core is only a path material that allows the fields to come together and be able to make sharp turns, etc.  When we look at the field mushroom out of the end of a magnet, those like fields repel and are pushed outwards away from one another. A magnetic core 'helps' to negate or better to say, reduce that like field repulsion that happens outside a magnet or a core and allows the fields to be denser and to bend and turn in the cores path much much easier than when the fields are outside the magnet or core. That is my contention on that subject. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2018, 08:54:11 AM

 Why is it that soo many have the idea that the currents out of the coil are reverse of what was being put in? Fly'back'? Reverse emf? back emf? Even 'counter' emf??? 

Mags

Woops. Forgot a big one.  Inductive Kick'back'    ;) ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: forest on February 24, 2018, 11:03:13 AM
Someone should confirm it Magluvin. Proof is simple but a long core is needed. If indeed flux is passing in center hole of core then the secondary could be very loosely wound on the opposite leg of core and still get more induction then in the same arrangement of coils without core.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 24, 2018, 11:40:37 AM
Someone should confirm it Magluvin. Proof is simple but a long core is needed. If indeed flux is passing in center hole of core then the secondary could be very loosely wound on the opposite leg of core and still get more induction then in the same arrangement of coils without core.

Yes,a loosely wound secondary will produce an EMF across it-->but it is not the magnetic field that is the cause of this EMF across the secondary.


Brad
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: partzman on February 24, 2018, 03:46:09 PM
Now, very quickly as I have a job to work on tonight, below is how I see the way mag fields engage the core of a toroid or any closed loop core and how the fields of a say primary winding on the left side of the core can 'cut' a secondary on the right side of the core. All the action is in the hole of the core, other than leakage on the outer sides. ;D So no, I dont believe that the mag field is only in the core.  The core is only a path material that allows the fields to come together and be able to make sharp turns, etc.  When we look at the field mushroom out of the end of a magnet, those like fields repel and are pushed outwards away from one another. A magnetic core 'helps' to negate or better to say, reduce that like field repulsion that happens outside a magnet or a core and allows the fields to be denser and to bend and turn in the cores path much much easier than when the fields are outside the magnet or core. That is my contention on that subject. ;)

Mags

One of the best papers I've found on this subject which closely agrees with your analysis is attached below.  The authors Edwards and Saha have done much bench work and theoretical analysis on the S flow or power flow in wire, coils, transformers, capacitors, and even including core flux diffusion.

Regards,
Pm

Edit:
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2018, 05:23:08 PM
Tinman is right


The current will flow in the direction of the inducing current
But the voltage potential in in the reverse direction.


It may be easier to think of it as a series-parallel configuration
For instance, in a simple case of:
a voltage source (battery),
a switch
and an inductor (R)


When the switch is closed, the inductor voltage is in series.
(-) facing the (+) of the battery, (+) facing the (-) of the battery.


when the switch is open, the inductor voltage is in parallel
(+) facing (+), and (-) facing (-).


Current is in the same direction as the closed circuit.

Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2018, 05:35:10 PM
What is interesting is when you saturate the coil with magnetism rather than inducing current


In this case, the direction of current of the collapsing field is determined by the direction of winding.
it will follow left/right hand rules, respectively.


This is because of the c dependency of electromagnetism
which is not present in permanent magnetism.
(Einstein’s relativity doesn’t allow for greater than c interactions)

Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2018, 06:04:06 PM
That is my interpretation of the effect discovered by Emil Lenze
of magnetically induced electricity.


And the description of the Zeeman effect described by Hendricks Lorentz
of electrically induced magnetism. (electric dipole)


Both of which are covered in Maxwell’s equations,
and brought into relativistic perspective by Albert Einstein


“Back-EMF”, is therefore relative to the observer.


In electrically induced magnetism, it is relative to the inducing current.


In magnetically induced electricity, it is relative to the motion between
the magnetic field and the conductor.


The inductive losses (from our perspective) are between the inductor and free
space in the first case.
And resistive to the motion in the second case.
Both are of equivalent magnitude.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 25, 2018, 03:33:38 AM
 author=Erfinder link=topic=17611.msg517132#msg517132 date=1519488628]



Quote
Unfortunately, and I am sure it comes as no surprise to you, I cannot agree with anything that you are suggesting.
..

Well,we agree on one thing-->it comes as no surprise.

 
Quote
I guess I could elaborate, but doing so will lead nowhere as we both know.

Well that i dont know until you elaborate.
Although the past says we will disagree,the future may see us agree,but where we look at things from a different angle.

Quote
You suggest that one look to the electric field....help the community to understand your perspective of it and how and more importantly why you feel it and not magnetism is where attention should be focused.....

As i have stated before,the magnetic field is a bi/product of current flow.

We can produce an EMF across a conductor without the magnetic field,as the electric field is what produces that emf.The magnetic field is only produced when a current starts to flow through that conductor.

The electric field is the force that produces work,and the magnetic field is the impedance upon that force.

Quote
If you will, start by defining the electric field....

I can not,as i do not fully understand it yet-much the same as no one yet is able to define what the magnetic or gravitational force is.


Brad
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 25, 2018, 04:33:40 AM
One of the best papers I've found on this subject which closely agrees with your analysis is attached below.  The authors Edwards and Saha have done much bench work and theoretical analysis on the S flow or power flow in wire, coils, transformers, capacitors, and even including core flux diffusion.

Regards,
Pm

Edit:

Hi PM

I read that paper,and like most other's,i believe it is wrong.


Brad
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 25, 2018, 05:05:05 AM
author=dieter link=topic=17611.msg517053#msg517053 date=1519386197]

And about the use of the term "Back-EMF", the reverse current of a collapsing field

No-that is not BEMF-->that is inductive kickback,or flyback as some call it,and the current flow is in the same direction as it was when connected to the source.

 as well as the inductive impact of a secondary field like in a motor (Lenz Drag etc.) it's both the same thing, only the cause is a diffrent one.

No,they are not the same thing at all.

,
Wrong again.
BEMF is the self induced EMF an electric motor produces.
The lower the BEMF value,the higher the value of current an electric motor will draw.
The higher the BEMF value,the lower the value of current the motor will draw.

And what makes this harder,is bullshit like this
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force.html--> For example, the voltage drop across an inductor is due to the induced magnetic field inside the coil.[1][2] The voltage's polarity is at every moment the reverse of the input voltage.

What a crock of shit that is.
The CEMFs polarity is the same as the sources polarity--not bloody opposite/reverse.
If it were opposite,then we would have a huge current draw as soon as we attached the source voltage.Just take two 1.5 volt batteries,and connect them so as the negative of one is connected to the positive of the other,then connect the remaining two end to each other--so connect the two batteries in series-->then see what happens.

Only when the source EMF is disconnected,do we get a reverse voltage across the coil,as the field is now collapsing.

No wonder so many people have a hard time trying to work all this out,when you have idiots posting shit like that on websites all over the internet.

That link doesnt work for me. Id like to see what they had to say or show but it doesnt apear to work.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 25, 2018, 05:30:44 AM
One of the best papers I've found on this subject which closely agrees with your analysis is attached below.  The authors Edwards and Saha have done much bench work and theoretical analysis on the S flow or power flow in wire, coils, transformers, capacitors, and even including core flux diffusion.

Regards,
Pm

Edit:

Looked at it and will have to go over it again.

I like this one....

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tinman on February 25, 2018, 07:06:28 AM
That link doesnt work for me. Id like to see what they had to say or show but it doesnt apear to work.

Mags

Mmm,try this one

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force.html
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2018, 12:00:44 PM
All 3 forces are beyond current human understanding.
There is no “definition”
All we can do is describe the little we think we know about them.


One does not exist without the other 2
As they are all part of the same thing.


What is “field”?


Intangible, unseen
All we can do is speculate, experiment, and describe our experiences
The “what is” lies beyond our reach
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: dieter on February 25, 2018, 02:28:49 PM
Glad to see you guys are discussing something here. Unfortunately not the actual core feature of the thing I was talking about.


Which is very simple, not much speculation of the philosophy and true nature of time space within the field of electrics.


Simple things like what that profesdor told me: current will always flow from a high potential to a low potential.


I considerbit a waste of livetime to question this. So, with a scopeshot of an inductive Kickback (as you prefer) in front of you, a clearly visible negative Spike, how can you even have such a discussion.


I said that already, you may have ignored or lalalalala-ed it, but here again:


During the forward pulse the coil's polarity is in series with the supply. The inductive kickback reverses polarity. Now it depends on the Voltage of the inductive kickback that finally decides whether the current will flow back to the supply. It can only flow back if the voltage is higher than the supply.


Because current flows from a hi to a lo potential /voltage.


This is for people who are really interested in the subject matter. Just ignore the offtopic flood.


Yeah, so how about them loads in the back path? The lower their resistance, the more efficient the recovery of the pulse?


We probably just opened a whole new pandora box thing here, from a oil-slaves point of view: What if we just charge one Battery with an other battery. Of course, one must have a higher voltage for that. Bit hey... if we put a load between them - wouldn't it again hold true: the lower the resistance of the load, the more unaffected the battery charging. Or do you think the electrons will jump off the wire somehow? If they would, the battery couldn't be uncharged, because what goes out at one pole must come in at the other pole.


So how do you like them apples. ;)


So how about that.
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 25, 2018, 11:31:30 PM
Glad to see you guys are discussing something here. Unfortunately not the actual core feature of the thing I was talking about.


Which is very simple, not much speculation of the philosophy and true nature of time space within the field of electrics.


Simple things like what that profesdor told me: current will always flow from a high potential to a low potential.


I considerbit a waste of livetime to question this. So, with a scopeshot of an inductive Kickback (as you prefer) in front of you, a clearly visible negative Spike, how can you even have such a discussion.


I said that already, you may have ignored or lalalalala-ed it, but here again:


During the forward pulse the coil's polarity is in series with the supply. The inductive kickback reverses polarity. Now it depends on the Voltage of the inductive kickback that finally decides whether the current will flow back to the supply. It can only flow back if the voltage is higher than the supply.


Because current flows from a hi to a lo potential /voltage.


This is for people who are really interested in the subject matter. Just ignore the offtopic flood.


Yeah, so how about them loads in the back path? The lower their resistance, the more efficient the recovery of the pulse?


We probably just opened a whole new pandora box thing here, from a oil-slaves point of view: What if we just charge one Battery with an other battery. Of course, one must have a higher voltage for that. Bit hey... if we put a load between them - wouldn't it again hold true: the lower the resistance of the load, the more unaffected the battery charging. Or do you think the electrons will jump off the wire somehow? If they would, the battery couldn't be uncharged, because what goes out at one pole must come in at the other pole.


So how do you like them apples. ;)


So how about that.


You are only looking at the apples from the outside. Your apples not good once you look inside.

"During the forward pulse the coil's polarity is in series with the supply. The inductive kickback reverses polarity. Now it depends on the Voltage of the inductive kickback that finally decides whether the current will flow back to the supply. It can only flow back if the voltage is higher than the supply.

Because current flows from a hi to a lo potential /voltage."


Of course the polarity changes across the coil when the input is taken away.  Because the coil is now the source! 

When the + of the input is connected to (A) side of the coil and the - to the (B) side of the coil, a scope will show (A) as being + and (B) as being - !!!!!  Now look at the loop of the batt and coil.  When the input is disconnected and the coil polarity shows on the scope to reverse, which way would current flow if the initial input connections became a load for the coils output when the input is disconnected?? ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)   Like a snubber diode, of which Circuit Sim will show you the way. Simple simple simple.

You need to dig deeper into understanding this stuff.  I highly recommend you download Falstads Circuit Sim applet.  It is correct just like all other sims when it comes to this stuff. You can use the sims scope to see the polarities and the sim shows currents flowing through the wires and components.  And you can take all that and do the same on the bench using a scope to monitor the polarities and have resistors to monitor current directions. 

I was in the same shoes you are wearing right now about 10 yrs ago.  Even what Im showing you here now, you still may not get it for some time, as the same for me. But keep at it. You will get it.

If you dont want to try Circuit Sim then maybe I can do a vid of what Im saying.  Have to see if the camera will show the monitor clearly.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 12:21:12 AM
@erfinder


Let me know when you get published
So I can nominate you for the Nobel Prize
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2018, 12:29:51 AM


Simple things like what that profesdor told me: current will always flow from a high potential to a low potential.



This is true in a broad sense
But as it pertains to back-emf, you have to take the whole situation into perspective
Where is your potential?


Faraday’s law of induction states that the reverse emf is of Opposite polarity to
the change in current.
This means the current is in the Same direction as the inducing field
And the voltage is of Opposite Polarity.


The current does not reverse directions!



Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: tomd on February 26, 2018, 02:37:20 AM
I think allaboutcircuits offers a good explanation.

I find the thing you have to keep in mind is that the coil is the source when the magnetic field is collapsing and in order for the current to not change direction the voltage across the coil must change polarity.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-3/inductor-commutating-circuits/ (https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-3/inductor-commutating-circuits/)
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Magluvin on February 26, 2018, 03:54:05 AM
I think allaboutcircuits offers a good explanation.

I find the thing you have to keep in mind is that the coil is the source when the magnetic field is collapsing and in order for the current to not change direction the voltage across the coil must change polarity.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-3/inductor-commutating-circuits/ (https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-3/inductor-commutating-circuits/)

Pretty much what I just said in my last post..  Also some books on switching power supplies are a great reference also.

Mags
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 08:50:54 AM

I expect you'll bend the knee and kiss the ring if I am awarded?


more likely that I will just assimilate your enlightened knowledge
Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2018, 08:59:49 AM
Sometimes it’s just a matter of perspective
or rather putting things in their proper perspective


Like, for instance a battery
You have a potential, and it is capable of producing some current
it has an internal resistance, which prevents the (+) from just
going through itself to the (-).
So when we connect it to our coil, the current runs through the coil
around to the battery’s (-).


Now we have a coil, (let’s assume we just switched it off)
It has a collapsing magnetic field, which induces a potential
This is parallel to the source now (opposite polarity)
Our coil has very little internal resistance
So the current runs through the coil from its (+)
to its (-).


In both cases, the current runs through the coil in the same direction.
The current takes the path of least resistance.
Which is through the coil.

Title: Re: Back-EMF Manifesto - A Key, hidden in plain Sight.
Post by: Belfior on February 27, 2018, 11:39:08 AM
so if the coil goes through a ferrite core and I cut the power, then a spike will go through the coil, affect the core and I can collect the bonus from the other side?

static charge is just voltage? What if I charge a cap with a static charge and then run it to a coil. Then cut the power. Will the back-EMF in the coil develop a magnetic field and create current?