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Author Topic: inertial propulsion with gyroscope  (Read 22059 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2018, 03:00:49 PM »
This kind of ties into a recent post I made in the skinner thread...


“Weight” is a function of gravity.


Precession force is a completely different force. It will not change your “weight”
Just as two repelling magnets do not change “weight”
gravity is still providing all of its force


we can trick ourselves by placing the scales in certain places
like under the lower magnet it will tell you the lower magnet gets heavier
(not really, we are just adding gravitational force to magnetic force in the down vector)


precession force does the same sort of adding and subtracting with the gravitational force.
the actual “weight” doesn’t change.

Weight is tied to density, force is tied to mass.
density is also tied to mass, but by a different function.
By this, density of the mass is also tied to the density of the force. (torque)


In the simplistic mechanical view, only one vector is considered at a time.
when in fact, 360-degrees of vector are present in all 3 dimensions
So these calculations should be considered in all 46,656,000 vectors.


Anything less than NASA’s shuttle pilot trainer, is just playing in the sand with spinny objects.







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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2018, 03:00:49 PM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2018, 03:33:28 PM »
NASA’s chair only provides for a little over a 2 million vectoral control.
But because they allow it to transition across 8x 90-degree orientations
The user has roughly 50% of all vectors in his hands, at ~2.4degree intervals.


This is the closest thing we have in terms of experiencing all 3 forces simultaneously


A 2-dimensional gyroscopic precession exerts forces on the axi that go unobserved.
We see the vertical transition and the angular transition of only one horizontal dimension
at a time.
There are forces perpendicular to both of these that are not observed in a simplistic analysis.


When you pilot the chair, you can feel these forces, and have to compensate for them.
only when you provide the exact proportional and opposite force with your hands,
can you bring the chair under control.
This is done using coils and variable resistors on a joystick.


in short: we should be performing experiments with gyroscopes in 3 gimbles

Offline Paul-R

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2018, 05:20:49 PM »
Look down the page to the image of the blue base, green motor/flywheels and  red arrows pointing upwards.
https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SmartSPIN_X2/SmartSPIN_X2.htm
I forgot to say: the blue base needs to rotate in its plane, of course.

Are people doubting that if this device were to be built, placed on scales and weighed, then the reading when the four gyroscopes and blue base are spun up would change?

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2018, 05:20:49 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2018, 06:00:52 PM »
Hi Chet

Yes i am thinking to dismantle my old electric bike to get out the rear wheel with the motor.
But there is perhaps  a better way to check the big wheel effect i will make some thinking these next days.

For info here the video of Laithwaite lecture and at 39.25 it is the experiment of the big wheel in the hands of a young guy, very impressive to see the guy lifting the heavy wheel seamingly without effort, because laithwaite controls the speed of rotation of the turning table, and so the rate of precession.

https://youtu.be/OpCEJxO6V9g

Thank's Smoky for input, but i need to reread your text , not very intuitive all this

Hi Paul R

I have a probléme with the link you mention, because the 4 gyros inside the rotating container seem to be fixed on the bottom. So they can not precess.
I have made some experiments with fixed gyros , and to me when they are fixed and can not precess at all, i feel no forces of any kind, the spinning gyro seems to be a dead mass. You can perhaps refer to  the experiment of Sandy Kidd which need the spring for precessing in order to exhibit some results.
As the spinning container seems to woble perhaps this wobling introduces some precession and eventually some effect on the scale ?? I have also noticed that the precession effect appears as soon as there is the slightest movement of the gyro axle. Extremely sensitiv this thing.

In my video (in my first post ), the device tries to stop the gyro precession on half a turn , so the gyro should be a dead mass with full inertia and centrifugal force, and free the complete precession on the other 180 degres so the gyro exhibit the full precession effect. So there is an asymetry (see Fiala's patent everything is explain)

Laurent

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2018, 07:08:44 PM »
Woopy


When a gyro is fixed (in any of the 3 dimensions)
The forces are constrained to the axis
Much like a shaft of a pendulum.
But we see in the pendulum, adding a fulcrum to allow
the forces to translate, we gain an additional dimension of
motion.


we cannot observe this force in a fixed pendulum.

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2018, 07:08:44 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 04:41:28 PM »
Hi all

I found some steel balls and a light flat structured cardboard plate.

So i  looked for a flat and smooth enough surface in my house to make some first crude "marble" test.

As expected there is dynamic torsions and drift because the device is not a twin device working dynamically against each other but allowing the main forward movement.

So i made a short video, where you can see that there is always a main forward direction of movement.

I also made a test on a not perfectly leveled surface (the steel balls roll down the very very gentle slope ) and to my great surprise, the device could coast.

Something interesting is that the drift movement tends to deregulate the device, and i had to increase slightly the diameter of the traction wheel to get the device working correctly on the marbles.

Then with the same traction wheel, i reinstalled the ballbearing wheels and redo a test by rolling (no more marbles) , and in this case the systems spins too fast and the traction wheel touch the ring track all along so there is no more gyroscopic precession on any  location around the 360 degre ring and the device move back and forth without any directional displacement. To get back  the forward rolling movement, i have to decrease the diameter of the traction wheel or decrease the spinning speed of the gyro.

Very sensitiv device indeed, but so a lot of fun.

https://youtu.be/4BHK4MkwCQM

Of course these test are "crude" and not made on perfectly smooth lab surface and probably my steel balls are not perfectly round. But to me and so far, the movement stay there. So i encourage replicators to redo all those test before going to any conclusion. We are so often fooled by unattended artifact that we have to be very careful especially with such sensitiv topics.

Hope this helps

Laurent





Offline Paul-R

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 04:52:17 PM »
the 4 gyros inside the rotating container seem to be fixed on the bottom. So they can not precess.

Yes, they are bolted down. but remember that the base plate must be made to rotate (which is not that easy).

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 04:52:17 PM »
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Online ramset

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2018, 05:31:59 PM »
Laurent
\
  it moves with great speed !!
if you start it in the spot where it ended up [against the furniture]

and point the front drive  180 degrees towards the old starting point
will it travel the same line towards the old starting point [by the carpet?] [or is this the coasting you mention?
-----------------------------------------------

Paul R


This sounds very familiar , the 4 Gyro's were fixed vertically and NOT allowed to angle up in precession and as a result  were lifting the Plate they were attached to ... as the 4 gyro quad array was turned toward precession.

Yes !!

I do believe a had seen this Video too, along with weight scales and a claim.

gotta try that one !!

and as Laurent has mentioned this could be inverted to put weight on the scale too?

Chet

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 09:44:57 PM »
There are two perspectives, and both are correct in their own right.
In one, the force can only be on the entire assembly, and not on the inertial frame
of the gyro. This means that the force cannot be used to apply external motive force.
like two guys on a boat on a sliding platform, trying to push a wall to move the boat forward.


In the other perspective, the force represents itself along the axis in one or two of the perpendicular
dimensions, depending upon the applied force and the angle of the force to the angle of rotation.
This can manifest itself as a tangential-force vector.
applied to the axis.
If the axis itself is free to move in space, and precession interrupted appropriately, the result is
a linear momentum.


to truly direct this becomes tricky.
The gyro boat inventors used an additional motor to rotate the
platform the main axis was mounted to.
This allowed them to “steer” the linear force. (kind of)
what they learned indicated that the linear force has also a vectored component, from the rotational
momentum, and by steering it in their manner, did not give full control over direction.
but that it can be directed, if the variables are identified.
which we now know how to do,
If a modern-day attempt to construct the gyroboat were made, it would probably be quite an interesting
thing.


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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 09:44:57 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 12:47:15 AM »
Hi all

As TK made a very interesting comment on my video

i did  make his proposition

and so i reinstall the ballbearing wheels on the device and  place the whole system on the cardboard ( which as been replaced by a stiff and very smooth aluminium plate )

and all of the system  "floating "on the steel balls

https://youtu.be/G3b8-AOvzaM

Of course it is very difficult at technical level  to be very accurate. So please take all this stuff as simple experiment and not as established fact.

But perhaps as TK  seems to have made all this experiments long ago perhaps he could help us and show some of his experiment and results.

Laurent

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 07:39:16 AM »
Woopy, think about action/reaction. If your aluminum plate is much heavier than the device you are testing, it is possible for the device to "push" against the plate and move across it without seeing much opposite movement reaction of the plate.  For these experiments I have always used a precisely leveled machinist's granite "surface plate" for the base, and a sheet of plate glass for the substrate surface upon which the device under test (DUT) is placed. I generally try to ballast the plate glass with adjustable weights (like modelling clay) so that its mass is equal to the mass of the DUT. In this way I expect the glass+ballast to move in the equal amount and opposite direction as the DUT moves, if it is indeed pushing against the substrate.
 
Your latest test is intriguing because your device does seem to cause movement of the substrate aluminum plate and the DUT together in the _same_ direction. Is this because the aluminum plate is much heavier than the DUT? Is it because the bearing wheels of the DUT aren't exactly aligned with the preferred direction of motion? Or some other reason? I don't know. The fact that the whole setup _does_ move, rather than just the DUT moving across the substrate, indicates that the system is not totally reactionless. Otherwise the DUT would simply move across the aluminum plate without moving the plate.

For such a system to be useful as a space drive, or as a true weight-loss system, it must be able to move when it is not in contact with anything material it can "push against" to create an equal and opposite reaction. In testing, it should be able to move without moving the surface it is sitting on, if that surface is also free to move.

Anyhow, I admire your dedication to experimentation and I encourage you to keep going, with several more experiments you can try.  For example, does the device still cause movement when the gyro rotor is not spinning, and just the circular drive motor is used, hence eliminating any effects caused by precession alone?


(Some names: Tolchin, Shipov, Poponin, Kidd, Firmage. You may be interested in reading about Chris Duffield's experiments with the Tolchin device. It's not a gyro precession device, rather it is a weight shifter with centrifugal force. But many of the same testing principles apply.  Note especially what he says about air tables and linear air tracks. I myself also tested the same Tolchin device provided by Gennady Shipov at the ISSO laboratory in San Franciso in 1999. )
http://www.iptq.com/cd/progress_1.htm

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 07:39:16 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2018, 04:41:49 PM »
This simple experiment here is fairly similar to the gyroboat of the 90’s


Here a motor spins the gyro,
And a imbalance on the shaft pushes the motor in one direction
once per rotation, in exactly the same place.
this oscillating precessional force translates to directional linear forces.
In this example the forces are in two dimensions.
One is parallel to the plane of rotation (tangential or radial depending on perspective)
the other dimensional force is not clearly shown in this video, but some effects are present here.
It is a vectored angle, slightly off-axis from the vertical.
This causes a ‘lifting’ effect on the side of the frame where the motor is mounted.
The force is not really “up”, but on the axis which is tied to the frame (tape roll).


If you were to place a scale under one side of the tape roll, opposite the motor
Your scale would show increased weight, because the distribution has changed momentarily
the side under the motor would show decreased weight for the same reason.
This motion is restricted by the mounts and by gravity
But if you can imagine the machine flipped sideways, you can picture the normally demonstrated
precession force causing this action.


Watch the video closely, you can see that the forces are truly in 3-dimensions.


https://youtu.be/Cj_3DaFA_ns

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2018, 05:05:32 PM »
Here is a nice demo from an ex NASA physicist
NASA began investigating this some time in the late 80’s
(at least that was publicly released)
Inspired (allegedly) by the work of Sandy Kidd


The real experiments done by NASA involved large massive gyros
Some estimates place these wheels at 100-ft diameter weighing several tons.


This is a tiny version of an experiment, with many less degrees of freedom.
https://youtu.be/R9L8fmE0RlI

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2018, 06:20:15 PM »
Hi TK

thank's very much for input and compliment.
I have done a last video, where i have replaced the steel balls by roller.
I have also balanced the weight of the substrate (the black alu plate which is originally almost 2 times lighter than the machine)
I don't know if the fact to use roller instead of balls interfer badly on the results ??
By doing this i can redo the test on my leveled and smooth cooking vitroceramique , i know that there is nothing to compare with a perfect machiniste plate, but it is better than my wooden table.
So it seems that, this time , the machine go forward and the substrate move almost not.

https://youtu.be/GSi1JzGogdM

I have looked some of your links and i don't know if the moving pendulums can exhibit some gyroscopic effect, but i have learned a lot on test on air tables or tracks and errors they can produce. And how easy it is to be fooled by those inertial systems.

So as usual i have to be very careful with the results, and i hope some others will come in the game so we can compare the results


Hi Smoky2

Yes M. Mccabe as made a lot of very impressive experiment with gyro and there is a lot of video on youtube. I have heard that he passed away (not sure) very sad. The one you have linked is probabbly something i will replicate to try to understand with my fingers what is going on.

Laurent

Offline telecom

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2018, 01:40:41 AM »
You can probably increase the effect by applying an extra weight on a gyro end.
It should precess more (just guessing)
Can you measure the force by stopping the movement with a fish scale?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:46:00 AM by telecom »

 

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