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Author Topic: inertial propulsion with gyroscope  (Read 21832 times)

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #195 on: May 10, 2018, 06:20:50 PM »
Hi Hanelore

It is freeday in my country , and bad weather, so i decided ti give a crude go to this "Nasa's" pendulum test.

As i thought, there is a lot of wobling, so the motorising effect is not at max for sure.

At the end of the video the pointer is somehow partially stabilised, but always pendels a bit, so i don't know if the test is of any relevance.

To me the test on the marbles (part eight) is much more interesting, because we can study the device and its behaviour in details.

Just for your info as your are new in this forum,  i have no commercial interest in inertial propulsion system, and i do it only for my pleasure. And frankly said  , the motorising effect is so weak that i see no possibility for a practical use on this planet, and this Fiala's flat system is  gravity precessed so they does not work in space. And as i have no connection to Elon Musk for developping a forced precessed device whych could go through space at supraluminal speed my hope are very short. But who knows?

And my pleasure now will not be to prove to you or anyone else something, but to share info and eventually go deeper in the understanding of gyros when they spin and precess.

The gyros are fascinating,..... are they more??

So back to workshop

https://youtu.be/CCN2cWNFVWA

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #195 on: May 10, 2018, 06:20:50 PM »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #196 on: May 10, 2018, 09:25:15 PM »
Interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t34Gv39ypRo (no weight loss when a gyroscope is precessing)

Wild contraption that does not work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwh2vGudeLk (there seem to be some people who experiment, but it is not easy)

Even wilder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQs0FtjUj1c

@Laurent: your pendulum test https://youtu.be/CCN2cWNFVWA is not so bad for such a slowly turning "space drive". I think with two drives and a bit faster turning of the arms it would stay on one side of vertical.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Hanelore

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2018, 12:52:53 AM »
Hi Laurent,
 
 thanks for the video with pendulum test attempt, but
 without parallel line pairs it is not Nasa pendulum test.
 
 In your test lines go up conically and allow rotation about transverse axis!
 
 The machine in traction phase causes a torque parallel transverse axis,
 which becomes visible with lines going up conically.
 
 I made a scetch for Nasa pendulum test in your room (see attachement) and
 with such an arrangement the system can not rotate about transverse axis.
 
 Gyros are indeed fascinating!
 
 Thanks for all your efforts, Hanelore

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2018, 12:52:53 AM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #198 on: May 11, 2018, 10:18:05 AM »
Hi all

A new member "shadowbones" is trying to post here but he could not and he PM to me. here is the paste of his PM.

  "Sorry, woopy, I'm stumbling around trying to learn the forum site.

My attempted post for a couple days ago is still in moderation. Basically, I pointed out that since your method doesn't create sustained acceleration, the NASA pendulum test is not appropriate.

Also, I asked if you have good suggestions about where to get small parts for experimentation, including the fidget spinner you use. Years ago when I last tried some of this, I used a company called Small Parts (in the US)  but they are no longer around.

Thanks,
Kevin "

So Kevin i hope you will be approuved soon. Just for info the spinner i use come from Banggood china. I insist on the fact that the weight of a good gyro for our purpose MUST be in majority in the rim of the gyro. So the spinner i got are not the cheaper, but they work so well and they can easily be combined up to 5 together. Ref at Banggood "
EDC motif circulaire Fidget Creative Fingers Entre spirale Jouets Gyroscope ronde réduire le stress.And chose the version with the smooth ring.
They also have 360 degrees servo if you want to replicate some of my experiment, so we can discuss the results.
Hope this helps
Laurent
   

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #199 on: May 11, 2018, 10:46:30 AM »
I conrad

Yes nice videos

My comment on the first one.
 This guy make a totally wrong test trying to debunk Prof Laithwaite. He should have much better spend his time and money and build the big wheel as Another debunker "Veritasium " did, and discuss the result. He would have learned something. It is somehow similar to the students (i mentionned in part 16) at Imperial college that jump on conclusion with incomplete experiment. Pathetic !
And if you notice, all these people use the famous HIGH PRECISION gyro from England, with a lot of dead mass all arround the gyrowheel. This gyro is certainly a very good school object with a lot of gimballing possibility, but probably not the best one to replicate Laithwaite's or Fiala's experiment. The big wheel is only one big gyro and a pole, if it was surrounded with lots of heavy protective dead mass, i am almost sure that Laithwaite would have been "centrifuged" against the wall and would have missed the remarkable effect.

The 2 other videos are good attempt, but with poor material. If you look at Sandy Kidd latest video https://youtu.be/ExCC9zZeZuY, you see that another time the gyros are "nude" (no dead mass) at the end of the shaft. And the device is very solid. You know very well how strong those gyros react when they are forced precessed.
And Sandy has the speed controll of the spinning gyro and the rotation with RC.

And for the Nasa's pendulum, Hanelore say that it is not correct so let's assume it is not a Nasa's pendulum test et voila.

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #199 on: May 11, 2018, 10:46:30 AM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #200 on: May 11, 2018, 11:13:13 AM »
Hi Hanelore

I don't know if you have ever built a gyroscopic system as the Fiala's.

If not , i would recommand you to do, i have given  some components ordering possibilities to "shadowbones" some posts above, so you can also order the spinners and make a replication for discussion.

Once you have replicated this very simple device , and feel its working forces in your hands, with all the strong assymetry and torque, you will try to reproduce a perfect Nasa's pendulum test (if you can) and i will be very happy to discuss your result.

As to me i will stick on the part eight of my video test https://youtu.be/_WBD5hZu0t4 as the ultimate test for the moment.

And so i agree, i should  vorget the denomination of Nasa's pendulum test so far. But it was a nice experiment by a rainy day.

And if you have an explanation for the GS portion (gyrodynamic stroke) of the Fiala's device, it would be of high interest.

Laurent

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #201 on: May 11, 2018, 12:11:58 PM »
@Laurent:  Part eight of your videos [/size]https://youtu.be/_WBD5hZu0t4 is indeed the best experiment concerning an "inertial drive" I have seen on YouToube and generally on the Internet.

If you continue with your tests and if I can build my "double system" we hopefully discover why Fiala's device which you replicated is this good. It looks so shaky and mechanically unsound, but still it moves very well.

The most interesting video concerning "mass transfer" is your part 16 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqyX7jgjZU . For me it shows that the precession of a gyroscope "transfers mass" when the gyroscope has a certain rotary speed in relation to the length of the arm carrying the gyroscope. But this alone only results in a back and forth movement. In addition one has to forcefully move the arm and to restrict the "nodding". Of course I do not know how exactly one has to forcefully move the arm. I suspect it has to be accelerated and decelerated. The restriction of the "nodding" seems to be clear from Fiala's patent and Laurent's replication (it has to "nod" just a few degrees).

I am having "mechanical problems" with my replication. A crude contraption is not enough.


I looked at banggood.com but did not find the particular spinner you use. If you still have it, may be you can provide a link.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #201 on: May 11, 2018, 12:11:58 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #202 on: May 11, 2018, 12:54:47 PM »
Hi conrad

Nice post thank's

For the spinners, go to Banggood.com, than on the top of the page there is a search line with "all categorie" copy and paste this   


EDC Circular Pattern Fidget Creative Fingers



And you should be OK, chose the one with smooth surface (less air drag) the one in the middle chosing square

Laurent

Offline iacob alex

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #203 on: May 11, 2018, 01:39:33 PM »
.....if you like to play some introductory experiments , take a look at : www.geocities.ws/iacob_alex/Disclosed_experiments.html
     Al_ex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #203 on: May 11, 2018, 01:39:33 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #204 on: May 12, 2018, 12:12:10 PM »
Hi all

After e very disturbing night i found this

https://youtu.be/xf1Nt3KLm-U

Seems that Isaac is OK as always, but we have to accept that Eric Laithwaite is also OK with the mass tranfer concept.

Remember at the end of the "Heretic" video, Laithwaite said that all the Newton's law are in line with those Gyro's behaviour, but inertial propulsion can be used in place of a rocket, or something like that.

And if i did not make too much error in this explanation, the question remain in full,   ....How is it possible, what is the mechanical action for this mass transfer. Laithwaite perhaps knew it but saddly he is on the other part of life and certainly laughing LOL.

Hi Al-ex

nice contraptions, are they gyroscopic or only mass moved ?

Hope this helps

Laurent

Offline Hanelore

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #205 on: May 12, 2018, 06:21:22 PM »
Hi Laurent,
 
 my crafting skills are rather poor, so I do
 not feel able to build experiments like you.
 
 I would like to emphasize again that one has to
 do the Nasa pendulum test very carefully in
 order to be taken seriously by physicists.
 
 All other tests on earth, which are not suspended similarly to Nasa,
 will be assigned to well-known "stick-slip phenomenon" immediately!
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/stick-slip_phenomenon
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VW1y6isl18
 
 All claimed unidirectional motivators working on wheels I know so far
 failed as they were suspended similarly to Nasa pendulum test...
 
 By the way:
 
 I payed the construction of a Laithwaite-machine
 in 2010, and it worked very good on flat surface.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nstIIZZadAM
 
 Nasa pendulum test it failed clearly, but this
 video was never published by the constructor.
 
 Best, Hanelore

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #205 on: May 12, 2018, 06:21:22 PM »
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Offline shadowbones

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #206 on: May 14, 2018, 12:44:01 AM »
Dear Woopy,

There is an important difference between moving the center of mass of a device, and achieving thrust. Thrust means a force, which means an acceleration. But the devices you have made so far do not give a sustained acceleration, they simply transfer the center of mass along a line. In order to oppose gravity, as with a pendulum, a sustained acceleration must be created. There may be a way to do that with the principle of "mass transfer" but the engineering is not obvious.

It is incredible that you have achieved propulsion horizontally. It must mean, as Laithwaite said, that the inertia is reduced when the gyro is spinning and precessing. How is it possible that physicists have not noticed your experiment 16? Their blindness boggles my mind.

We should assume that Newton's laws are not violated. Thus momentum is conserved at all times. Let's take that as granted, and reason from there. In experiment 16 for example, conservation of momentum can happen only if the inertial mass is zero (or much less than gravitational mass)!  At rest inertial mass precisely equals gravitational mass though scientists cannot agree on why. When the gyro is spinning and precessing, somehow inertial mass gets much reduced. Since scientists don't have a good explanation for inertia in the first place (Mach's principle?), it is going to be tricky for them to explain how inertia is reduced by a spinning mass. But this phenomenon seems like a very big clue.

Here is an experiment I would very much like to see you do: Our hypothesis is that the inertial mass is reduced during precession. Therefore the kinetic energy must also be reduced because k=1/2 mv2. if you place a pressure transducer in the path of precession and let the gyro collide with it, the force you measure should be much lower than that calculated for a non-spinning gyro moving at the same speed. We can do those calculations based on a few measurements you can easily make.

Laithwaite actually commented on this very point several times. Stopping precession took very little force even for his large gyros.

Incidentally, I think this idea of the inertial mass becoming reduced explains that famous "big gyro lifting over head" phenomenon. Once your arm is opposing gravity and holding the gyro at some level, raising it higher involves accelerating only inertial mass, not more gravitational mass.
But inertial mass is reduced, so the thing is easy to lift higher.

Note that gravitational mass doesn't change at all, so everything weighs the same regardless of spinning/no spinning when it is on a scale.

Kevin

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #207 on: May 14, 2018, 05:35:50 PM »
Hi Halenore

yep dommage that you can not build a contraption. But it is up to you.

In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VW1y6isl18 at 0.30 you see clearly the truck toy pushing backwards the substrate on the air table, due to friction of the motorised wheel on the substrate and action and reaction. In my part eight video, it is exactly the same config but my Fiala's device does not push the substrate (which is on steel marbles probabbly better than an air table because no angulation of the surface ) backwards, which clearly mean that the wheels are not motorising , even by the smallest STICK SLIP. My device goes happily forwards in the reference frame, and the substrate stays almost at the same place or eventually it goes slightly FORWARDS.
It is why i think that this test is the best because the Fiala's device needs a flat and smooth surface to exhibit it's capacity in full. On a suspended pendulum of any kind it will not be able to be at it's max capacity. It is as if you decide to test the acceleration rate of a car on ice, it works but the result is not very convincing for sure.
And if you observe attentively, on my test 17, at the end, when the system is stabilised , it seems that the average movement of the pointer is about the outer 12 mm width rim of the reference wheel.At full stop, the pointer is right in the middle, which seems to demonstrate a poor but not null result to me (6 mm offset on 2 meters length suspension line.

Now on the test you payed for. my comments.

1- so far i can see, this system is not in precession at all. It rotate then stops than exhibit a linear translation then stop and  back to beginning. For precessing it must be both together. So i am sorry to think that you are replicating any of Laithwaite's or Fiala's test with this contraption.
2- you test the device on a "billard" table, this is not smooth at all. Than if you should have mounted the device on wheels then placed it on a substrate, and the substrate on steel marbles (not too much touching together ) and all this on a plate of glass perfectly levelled , i bet that you would have got no translation at all. And the Nasa's pendulum test you made after is a normal result.

Finally in the Nasa's report it is written in plain letters that those Gyro propulsion constitute a non viable system. Bu to stay "open".... they  could ...perhaps...be ready... to  change their opinion ... if and only if a Nasa's pendulum test would be positiv and after super solid checking. Other said they will ask always more test and retest, because.......if it would eventually works, the actual physics should need a lifting.

Incredible, they simply don't want to see any thing that could perhaps modernised some portion of their physics. So no chance to convince them. Dommage butso it is. Sorry i have no more time for convincing anybody. I go my way and if i am wrong it will be my fault. Basta !

I have done new test with my latest contraption to check the apparent lack of inertia when a gyro is SPINNING and PRECESSING. Really interesting. And i insist i find each day new stuff , because i have the machine in my hands. And almost at each test my mind is twisted , because i was so sure that the result would be different....facinating and what a fun.

Hope this helps

Laurent

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #208 on: May 14, 2018, 06:03:21 PM »
Hi shadow

Nice that you can post now.

Yes  i will try to stick on the fact that Newton is there, i should better say SOMEWHERE in the device.

I have made new test with my little contraption of part 17. Trying to imagine how i could install a system to stop the precession and measure the forces, as you proposed.

I got a big surprise as usual with this gyros,

first i tried to stop the rotation (while the gyro is spinning and precessing) by putting my finger against the rear vertical hinge. And it does not stop the rotation instantly and it was quite a bit of powerfull chock against my finger. Then i do the same directly on the gyro spinning shaft, same result, a strong and long force. Is Laithwaite wrong, did he trick something when he stopped effortless the big orange wheel on the tripod ?
Then i made some reflections and i remembered when Laithwaite put and remove a weight on one of his gyro during the lecture. When he remove the weight, the precession stops instantly.
So i redo my test ad guess what, when i slightly lift the gyro (while of course spinning and precessing, ) it stops instantly and exhibit no inertia.
So if you try to stop the precession by stopping the rotation, you don't stop the precession and you will be propelled away by the really impressivr force.

 But if you slightly lift the gyro it stop to precess and to rotate immediately without inertia. And the same when you release the gyro it goes immediately in precession, i am not sure that it fall at all (to be checked) I would say that if there was no friction, perfect bearing and no dead mass, the gyro goes instantly into precession.

Incredible and once more Prof Eric Laithwaite was right. But Newton is also there, but where and how his he acting?

Speed up your replication you will feel all this in your hands, and remember you will not twist the gyro, the gyro will twist your mind, but for the better.

Laurent

Offline telecom

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #209 on: May 14, 2018, 06:14:04 PM »
Dear Woopy,

There is an important difference between moving the center of mass of a device, and achieving thrust. Thrust means a force,


Kevin
I think the device is producing trust and force, it is clear from the video.
Also, I don't see  any difference between the gravitational and inertial masses of the gyro,
since it immediately becomes unbalanced.

 

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