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Author Topic: inertial propulsion with gyroscope  (Read 23363 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2018, 01:28:36 PM »
Laurent, nice build. And I am glad that you are also using an Arduino. The way forward with these strange gyroscope machines is precise control by microprocessor. It should be possible to find what is really going on.

It would also be good to controll the speed of the gyroscope. The speed of the gyroscopes should somehow correspond with the speed of the arm.

I am collecting materials for a super machine with strong stepper motors, good stepper motor drivders  and the beautiful gyroscopes from England, which come with their own DC motors. At least I can let these gyrosopes turn with different speeds by varying the supply Voltage (2, 3 or 4 AA batteries).

Great plans but slow work, greetings Conrad
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 05:31:37 PM by conradelektro »

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2018, 01:28:36 PM »


Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2018, 06:11:48 PM »
Hi conrad

thank's for info, will read  for my new build.

I have just finished the new proto and have some very positive results.

It seems that the rower system is promising, and sure the arduino will be used for the improvement.

Will go on the test those next days

Greetings
Laurent


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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2018, 06:11:48 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #168 on: March 10, 2018, 07:44:22 PM »


 http://www.pyroelectro.com/tutorials/arduino_multi_servo/software.html


How to speed up two servos (each 1 degree step happens faster than the previous):
 
#include <Servo.h>
Servo servo_0;
Servo servo_1;
 
void setup()
{
  servo_0.attach(0);  // attaches the servo on pin 0 to the servo object, different pin can be used
  servo_1.attach(1);  // attaches the servo on pin 1 to the servo object, different pin can be used

  servo_0.write(0);          // send servo_0 to position 0 degrees
  servo_1.write(0);          // send servo_1 to Position 0 degrees
  delay(2000);                  // wait 2 seconds (2000 ms)
}
 
void loop()
{       

for(int i=0;i<=170;i++){     // servos step from 0 to 170 degrees
  servo_0.write(i);
  servo_1.write(i);
  delay(25 + 170 - i);           // 25 ms minimum delay, could be less, has to be tested,
                                            // delay is decreased from 25 + 170 ms to 25 ms
  }

for(int i=170;i>=0;i--){     // servos step from 170 to 0 degrees
  servo_0.write(i);
  servo_1.write(i);
  delay(25 + i);                  // 25 ms minimum delay, could be less, has to be tested,
                                          // delay is decreased from 25 + 170 ms to 25 ms
  }
}
 
One has to test the minimum delay needed for a particular servo to complete a 1 degree step  (in the above example it is assumed to be 25ms).

The problem is that a servo is inherently slow.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2018, 11:46:41 PM »
hi conrad

Just tried your softs and they work well thanks

But today i got lost in all the testing with rowing or not rowing and i decided  to get a reference for my future work.

So i redo my best fiala system with a better motor and a regulator for different gyro setup and this one will not be dismantled for other experiments

 I have ordered a bunch of those figdget spinners with outer brass ring because they seems to be very close to what Fiala describe in the patent.

it will be MY SCALE for comparison with other experiments, because it works so well.

hope this helps

Laurent
,


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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2018, 11:46:41 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #170 on: March 12, 2018, 03:15:42 PM »
So i redo my best fiala system with a better motor and a regulator for different gyro setup and this one will not be dismantled for other experiments

I have ordered a bunch of those fidget spinners with outer brass ring because they seems to be very close to what Fiala describe in the patent.

it will be MY SCALE for comparison with other experiments, because it works so well.

Laurent, it will be advantageous to have a reference system for comparison. It is easy to get lost, take your time, there is no need for haste. Nobody seems to be interested anyway.

I am held up because I could not find my shrink sleeving when connecting the stepper motors to the motor shield. I have to get some, to do the wiring nicely.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2018, 08:11:09 PM »
The stepper motors I used in my first build are not strong enough to turn the arm carrying the gyroscope. I need to get better drivers and stepper motors with more torque. That also means that the Adafruit motor shield is not adequate to the task at hand (not enough drive capability).

This driver might do: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0711J1K66/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AZ33U9I2AQIQH&psc=1 (one for each stepper motor)

I am still looking for adequate stepper motors. I want some with a 12 Volt rating at about 2 Ampere (6 Ohm phases).

In the unlikely case that someone is also building a replication with stepper motors, be aware that the Adafruit stepper motor shield is not capable to drive strong enough stepper motors. Even small gyroscopes are relatively heavy and pose a strong resistance to twisting if they run at 10.000 rpm.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2018, 08:11:09 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #172 on: March 14, 2018, 12:03:55 PM »
Hi conrad

Thanks for beeing one of the very few interested contributor in this gyro propulsion. Perhaps too puzzling or too difficult for the people.

Yes those small gyros exhibit a terrible torque , and it is why it is so difficult to get good results with my rowing system with 2 standard electric dc motors.There is always small spinning divergence. and the precession are not in sync, and so the propulsive effect is lost.

Perhaps and i hope you will get better results with the stepper motor.

I have redo the suspended wheel test with my new rebuilt flat Fiala mono gyro, to get some measurement and keep it as comparison for further experiment.

https://youtu.be/AlH1zfGG7_Y

Hope this helps

Laurent

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #173 on: March 14, 2018, 07:49:26 PM »
I put a new video on YouTube showing the failed attempt with low torque stepper motors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raP4syp_WVE

The stronger stepper motors will arrive soon.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #173 on: March 14, 2018, 07:49:26 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #174 on: March 22, 2018, 07:18:50 PM »
I got good stepper motors which seem to be strong enough (17HS13-0404S)

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B072LVXVKW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1FPXIYSVOP6JD&psc=1

But the next problem manifested itself:

I have to move the stepper motors step by step (always just one step) because the delay between steps has to decrease (from 0° to 180°) and then to increase (from 180° to 360°). Unfortunately the function onestep()  driving the stepper motor just one step needs about 2 ms before it returns. Since I have to call this function 400 times per full circle (200 times per stepper motor) this "calling" alone takes almost 1 second. Therefore I can not turn the stepper motors faster than about 1 turn per second. Which is not fast enough.

for (i=0; i < 100; i++){    // step from 0° to 180° , 100 steps
   delayMicroseconds(dly(i));            // decreasing delays
  myMotor2->onestep(BACKWARD, DOUBLE);  // takes about 2 ms to return
  myMotor1->onestep(FORWARD, DOUBLE);   // takes about 2 ms to return
}
for (i=99; i >= 0; i--){    // step from 180° to 360° , 100 steps
  delayMicroseconds(dly(i));            // increasing delays
  myMotor2->onestep(BACKWARD, DOUBLE);  // takes about 2 ms to return
  myMotor1->onestep(FORWARD, DOUBLE);   // takes about 2 ms to return
}

I ordered stepper motor drivers which allow a more direct control of the stepper motors than the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.7:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1QCDAONWDNBZA&psc=1

A difficult project with many pitfalls.

It turned out that the precessing of the gyroscopes has to be prevented. If not prevented the gyroscopes will precess immediately when the arms are accelerated. If the gyroscope spins clockwise the arm also has to be turned clockwise to cause a upward precessing (or the same counter clockwise). If the gyroscope does not spin fast enough or the arm is not turned fast enough the precessing will not happen.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2018, 12:56:09 PM »
Hi all

I am now trying to better grasp the "why" of the "something's lost" in the Fiala horizontal inertial machine.

Here i replicated the Eric Laithwaite 2 pivots experiment, which shows that there is no weight loss when a gyro is naturally precessing (which was already known), but something else is happening, perhaps a "mass transfer" along the spinning axle ???

https://youtu.be/jD_Q_J4GcQ8

What do you think ?

Laurent

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2018, 12:56:09 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #176 on: March 30, 2018, 02:43:20 PM »
Laurent, great video, what a nice setup! And you are very fast when building something.

I found a good explanation of the gyroscope forces: http://www.cleonis.nl/physics/phys256/gyroscope_physics.php and http://butikov.faculty.ifmo.ru/Applets/Gyroscope.pdf

My interpretation of your video: what the layman expects to be a weightloss goes in fact into a circular movement of the arm. In other words, when the gyroscope is up (what looks like a weight loss) the force (which keeps the gyroscope up) translates into a force that turns the arm. And slowly this turning force is diminishing (the arm goes back into balance) when the gyroscope spins down. And this is not for free. The power you put into spinning up the gyroscope is slowly dissipated into turning the arm while it spins down. (All the friction losses make it very complicated. I ignored friction in my explanation.)

This is still "wonderful" because a spinning of the gyroscope is turned into a circular movement of the arm. The interesting part is that the spinning of the gyroscope and the turning of the arm are both "angular moments". Therefore conservation of moment is not violated.

Yesterday I finally got my new stepper motor drivers https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR

https://www.dfrobot.com/wiki/index.php/TB6600_Stepper_Motor_Driver_SKU:_DRI0043 Good explantion of the TB6600, but the code example confuses the fact that the TB6600 is driven with OptoCouplers, active = LOW if wired as in the document.

I could install them on my contraption, but the first tests have to wait till next week. I am NOT fast when building something.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #177 on: March 30, 2018, 05:08:48 PM »
Hi conrad

Thank's for compliments.

Now i have looked in the Prof Lewin gyro lecture.

The problem with all these gyro lectures and explanations, is that they generally speak of  gyros , most of the time suspended bicycle wheel on one side or totally gimballed system) .

No one is trying to explain the "DOUBLE inline PIVOTS " of Laithwaite.

So in the one sided suspended bicycle wheel, there is ONE single pivot, that is the point where the string is attached to the axle of the wheel. And of course the weight of the wheel spinning and precessing does not change at all but the gyroscopic torque maintain the wheel momentarily more or less horizontal (nutation) and induce a vertical rotating movement to the wheel (precession)

The explanation of the phenomenon is that the weight (mass) of the wheel seems to be transferred right on the pivot by the gyroscopic torque of the precessing wheel. So nothing new here.

In my video this is not at all the same system. It is a "seesaw"  system where, on one side of the seesaw the gyro when  not spinning, is a dead weight located and suspended at the end of main arm by a pivot, and is counterweighted by another fixed dead weight on the opposite end of the arm.
The system at full stop is perfectly balanced and the main arm stays horizontal.

Now if we accept that the weight of a spinning and precessing bicycle wheel is located (by gyroscopic  torque) exactly on the string pivot, we should also accept that on the seesaw system, the weight of the spinning and precessing gyro,is also tranfered and thus  located exactly on its pivot.

So when the seesaw double pivot system is in precession, we should expect that the main arm of the seesaw, SHOULD STAY HORIZONTAL, because everything is balanced exactly as if the gyro would not spinn at all and stays "deadly" suspended.

But it is not the case, when the gyro is spinning and precessing it seems that the gyroscopic torque (if it is it) does not transfer the weight exactly on the pivot, but under certain circomstances it is able to  transfer the weight (or mass) elsewhere and very probably beyond the pivot axle in direction of the seesaw center.

It is why the system is momentarily unbalanced and the gyro side lift up.

It is what,  i suppose , Laithwaite called a mass transfer.( not sure)

This mass transfer is first (when the gyro spins fast) , beyond the pivot, and then gradually (when the gyro is slowing) moves in direction of the pivot and finally when the gyro approach the stopp, on the center of gravity of the gyro which now pendels vertically under the pivot. ( so the pivot is now vertically exactly above the center of gravity of the gyro) and the seesaw is horizontal and balanced again.

Another time there is no weight loss at all, no antigravity here, but something else.

And if we stay on the general  gyro's explanations with one pivot (or gimballed ) and a bunch of vectors we will probabbly miss "something" of great interest, because with one pivot it is impossible to detect if the mass is transferred elswhere (if it is) than the pivot center.

And this "Something" is probably  what make The Fiala device work and the Laithwaite seesaw lift up, and also very probably a part of why Laithwaite could lift the BIG (20 kg) wheel with one old wrist and why a suspended bicycle wheel with a very long string beginns orbiting in space and much more.

Laurent

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #178 on: March 30, 2018, 06:33:31 PM »
Laurent, thank you for explaining the difference between usual setups of a gyroscope and your setup. I was not aware of that.

I played a bit with the TB6600 stepper motor drivers ( https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06XSD5XPR  ) and can confirm that they allow excellent control of the stepper motors. Everything is fast enough to control each and every step and still go fast.

One needs a TB6600 driver and three pins on the Arduino for every stepper motor. But the TB6600 driver only costs about EUR 14.--.

If one uses two different power supplies or two different sets of batteries (one for the Arduino and one for the TB6600s and stepper motors) the Arduino is shielded by optocouplers, which is proper engineering (to avoid electronic interference).

A TB6600 driver can drive very strong stepper motors up to 4 A per coil. The stepper motors I am using at the moment only need 0.5 A per coil, but I want to use stronger ones later on for my better gyroscopes. The TB6600 can limit the power to the coils in increments from 0.5 A to 4 A, which is handy. It can also do multi stepping up to 32 intermediate steps, which is not useful for this project but allows very smooth stepping in other applications.

I am not advertising the TB6600 but it was difficult to get a reasonably priced and still useful stepper motor driver. Building one based on a driver chip is too tedious and would cost more than EUR 14.--. It is also a strange requirement to control each and every step. Usually one wants that the stepper motor driver does a series of steps independently (like the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.7).
 
One can not use the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.7 for this project because the control of each and every step of a stepper motor is very limited (too time consuming, about 2 ms per step). See this post http://overunity.com/17573/inertial-propulsion-with-gyroscope/msg518684/#msg518684

Greetings, Conrad

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #179 on: April 27, 2018, 07:26:23 PM »
Hi conrad

are you always on the topic ?

I go slowly forward too, but i make further experiments trying to isolate the property of those things

https://youtu.be/qyqyX7jgjZU

greetings

Laurent

 

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