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Author Topic: inertial propulsion with gyroscope  (Read 21863 times)

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2018, 12:18:17 AM »
Hi conrad

So much thank's for the usefull infos.

Tonight i tried different tracting guiding track's shapes on my vertical device .

And it seems that this shape is of utmost importance, because the last one seems to let the "twin rowing gyros device" climb on a very very little slope better than the Fiala monorotor flat rotating did .

So it seems that a forced precession (steper motor) should be probably even better

but with those gyros behaviour, who knows

Laurent





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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2018, 12:18:17 AM »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2018, 11:23:24 AM »
Tonight i tried different tracting guiding track's shapes on my vertical device .

And it seems that this shape is of utmost importance, because the last one seems to let the "twin rowing gyros device" climb on a very very little slope better than the Fiala monorotor flat rotating did .

So it seems that a forced precession (steper motor) should be probably even better


The shape of the tracks or "control rings" of the Fiala device (according to Figures 1 to 11, 41, 45 to 49, 51, 52 of US2011219893A1) is important because they have a very strong influence on the acceleration of the arm (carrying the gyroscope) on its circular path. The tracks allow to use the gyroscope motor also as a propelling means on the circular path. But the acceleration on the circular path has many parameters which are hard to control: friction of the axle (or roller) on the track, shape of the track, rotation speed of the axel (or roller).


My idea was to gain better control of this acceleration (and deceleration) by using a stepper motor. The drawback is the need for program control (microprocessor). Nowadays everything is program controlled (even your electric toothbrush), but it can be a problem for the layman or for someone only trained in mechanics (and not electronics).


The big question (as I often said) is whether the precession of the gyroscope (the "nodding") has to be controlled (or guided) as well? I hope not, Laurent feels that it has to be done (and he is the only one with practical experience so far, besides Mr. Harvey Fiala).


Greetings, Conrad

Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2018, 12:22:27 PM »

The shape of the tracks or "control rings" of the Fiala device (according to Figures 1 to 11, 41, 45 to 49, 51, 52 of US2011219893A1) is important because they have a very strong influence on the acceleration of the arm (carrying the gyroscope) on its circular path. The tracks allow to use the gyroscope motor also as a propelling means on the circular path. But the acceleration on the circular path has many parameters which are hard to control: friction of the axle (or roller) on the track, shape of the track, rotation speed of the axel (or roller).


My idea was to gain better control of this acceleration (and deceleration) by using a stepper motor. The drawback is the need for program control (microprocessor). Nowadays everything is program controlled (even your electric toothbrush), but it can be a problem for the layman or for someone only trained in mechanics (and not electronics).


The big question (as I often said) is whether the precession of the gyroscope (the "nodding") has to be controlled (or guided) as well? I hope not, Laurent feels that it has to be done (and he is the only one with practical experience so far, besides Mr. Harvey Fiala).


Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad

This morning i stumble upon this mechanical system
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k
It seems that depending on the axles distance and lever lenght, it is possible to get different ratio back and forth. So with a arduino to control the speed of the servo or stepper motor ?

Another test with my vertical twin gyro, i glued  a  vulcaning band on the track to see if a better grip  could improve the already good motorizing swing
And not at all. The device don't move forward any more and swing much less.
So my conclusion is that the gravity pushes the pendulum gyro faster than the rotating traction wheel does. So without the grip band the "traction wheel is no more a traction wheel and simply slide along the guiding track. So perhaps i should add a small ballbearing to help this sliding.
It seems that the vertical setup is no more a Fiala flat system at all.
So once more the rectilinear and fast motorizing swing may be horizontal or 45deg or vertical or perhaps also more than vertical and even totally negativ . fantastic.

Sofar i think have understood a bit.

Now the free precessing back track ?

I have spent long minutes to observe the device rolling on the table
For info  my new guiding track let the gyro almost "free falling" inward just after   6 o'clock of the rectilinear pendulum swing. So at about 7 o'clock the gyros are always in the swing translation but not guided so they precess brutally "inward" and they even touch each  other ( nice little cling) before entering the loooong way back in free precession up to the starting point before the new swing.
During this way back there is 1 or 2 "nutation"and during these nutations ,it seems that the rolling speed of the entire device varies a little bit.

And that i don't understand at all

You say tricky those gyros !!

ok let's go for other observations and test

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2018, 12:22:27 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2018, 01:12:24 PM »
If you look at Woopy’s first devices
you can see the effect of the “nodding”
or axial-tilt


the force propagates in the direction along the length of the arm
(more accurately tangentially to where the gyro was swinging moments earlier)
the force is instigated by the change in tilt (the nod)
there is a reverse to this when it “nods”  (tilts) upwards again.
in Woopy’s set-up this reverse impulse is less pronounced due to the forward
momentum given to the device during the forward impulse.


Understand that the force on the axis is always present.
any change in rotation about either of the 3 gimbles creates a change in force
on the other 2


the force we are talking about is the tilt
or 3rd gimble


When the tilt occurs and is stopped
the linear force is in the direction of the tilt.


To make an analogy, place a see-saw or similar lever vertical
On a cart (wheels or such)
With the lever actuating in the direction of motion
by applying force to the top of the lever, it tilts in that direction.
When it reaches its maximum displacement and stops - the applied force
pushes the cart forward.
Apply force to tilt the lever back the other way, when it stops the force pushes
the cart backwards.


This is similar to what the gyro does.


We can observe these forces further still in a rotating disk on a horizontal plane
with small a imbalance in the disk mass distribution
if the axle doesn’t give, the device will hop,skip,and jump
as the disk tries to tilt at its axis
in this example the 2nd and 3nd axes are acting together as one
because there are no gimbles, the motion is cooperative against the horizontal rotation
The linear forces in this example are multidirectional and so there is no ‘net’ linear vector
it may move around but it’s not “going anywhere”


It is important to understand that distinction
to manifest the forces in a linear path, we have to transfer the forces opposing this path
into the other two axes.
Otherwise, the forces cancel each other out.


Think of having a slice of pi pie (the sides for a V)
And on the outer curvature of the slice we have two corners
one is the up tilt event, the other is the down tilt event
Each corner is off the horizontal by some degree
the magnitude of this displacement and the length of curvature
over which the displacement occurs
gives us the combined vector of the linear force
In either direction


It doesn’t matter which gimble you start with
The force can be traced by following the 3 Step process
(the transition of momentum along the 3 axes)


Rotation as observed in one plane (in one of the 3 dimensions)
when a change in applied force occurs, a tangential force is placed on the axis
90-degrees to that force.
Subsequently, an equal and opposite force (to the applied change) is placed
on the axis that experiences the force.
This is why a gyro can ‘stabalize’ itself in free space
and holds itself up against gravitational force by resisting tilt
(through precession)




And it is like this on each of the 3 axes, from any perspective.
(taking into consideration the masses and angular velocities appropriately)


You cannot change one without creating a change in the other two.
And momentum is conserved throughout.


In effect, we are vectoring the momentum of the rotating gyro.
the changes we make to both of the other two axes, facilitate this change
in the vector of the angular momentum.








Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2018, 06:08:31 PM »
This morning i stumble upon this mechanical system
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k
It seems that depending on the axles distance and lever length, it is possible to get different ratio back and forth. So with a arduino to control the speed of the servo or stepper motor ?

Nice mechanical solution, but not easy to build. The drawback, nothing can be adjusted (besides changing levers) to test different speeds.

Quote
Another test with my vertical twin gyro, i glued  a  vulcaning band on the track to see if a better grip  could improve the already good motorizing swing
And not at all. The device don't move forward any more and swing much less.
So my conclusion is that the gravity pushes the pendulum gyro faster than the rotating traction wheel does. So without the grip band the "traction wheel is no more a traction wheel and simply slide along the guiding track. So perhaps i should add a small ballbearing to help this sliding.
It seems that the vertical setup is no more a Fiala flat system at all.
So once more the rectilinear and fast motorizing swing may be horizontal or 45deg or vertical or perhaps also more than vertical and even totally negativ . fantastic.

Sofar i think have understood a bit.

Now the free precessing back track ?

I have spent long minutes to observe the device rolling on the table
For info  my new guiding track let the gyro almost "free falling" inward just after   6 o'clock of the rectilinear pendulum swing. So at about 7 o'clock the gyros are always in the swing translation but not guided so they precess brutally "inward" and they even touch each  other ( nice little cling) before entering the loooong way back in free precession up to the starting point before the new swing.
During this way back there is 1 or 2 "nutation"and during these nutations ,it seems that the rolling speed of the entire device varies a little bit.

And that i don't understand at all

The reason why everything is very mysterious is that nobody seems to know what effect one has to go after. (Sorry, sm0ky2 knows of course, he knows everything.) One has to isolate the effect and then one can design a system that takes full advantage of it. Unfortunately it is possible that there is no useful effect, just a back and forth movement if friction is taken away. But it is worthwhile to investigate, at least one will understand the gyroscope better.

I got the very nice gyroscope from the UK https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2 and played with it (just with my hands and the rod which comes with it screwed into one side). I could turn it a bit like it will be turned by a stepper motor. Because the gyroscope spins very fast (really about 12.000 rpm) it wants to precess very strongly. Even if the stepper motor would move it only a few degrees it will precess from the horizontal position immediately almost straight up to a vertical position. Therefore I suspect that precession has to be prohibited like in the Fiala device (where the tracks do that). Just speculation, but one sees and feels that more easily with a fast spinning gyroscope where the precession force is strong. In fact, surprisingly strong if one never had a fast spinning gyroscope in one's hand before.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2018, 06:08:31 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2018, 08:01:36 PM »
The mechanics are defined by Newton


And as it specifically applies to gyroscopes, they were completely
defined by Eric Laithwaite


The problem was, he made one outrageous claim which ended his career in a nasty way
And now everyone seems to ignore the science


There's really no need to pretend we don't know what's going on here.
Even NASA has webpages devoted to teaching how these things work


A little applied science can save you endless hours of experimenting with the infinite parameters
In an attempt to gain a desired effect


I did not invent the gyro
Nor did I create the math we use to describe it.
You Too can learn science!

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2018, 08:29:41 PM »
To exhibit a net force, that is one exerted on the machine that is not canceled around 360
in a single axis of rotation:


The applied force AND the responsive force must be constricted.
That is the forces at play at the other two axes
One being rotational in one plane (90 degrees to the first):precession
and the other being rotation in the other plane (also 90-degrees to the first):tilt


Because of our designs, at least one of those planes is likely to be inhibited by construct.
This is generally chosen to be tilt, but we can invert the situation and see that tilt is the
same as precession, when not constricted. (we instead restrict the other)


In fact, the forces felt in precession, from applied force in tilting plane
Is the quantity of force applied against that plane,
and the quantity of force applied to the acceleration in the other plane
When combined, these two are the quantity of force applied against the rotating mass.
In general, this is opposite the rotational velocity of the gyro. (not explicitly)
And will slow the gyro down.


The actual force is applied to a finite point, center of the axis of rotation in the first plane.
The magnitude of this applied force, which is linear in nature but changing over time, and
as such is defined by a time dependent angular acceleration.
The magnitude of this force is proportional to the distance from this point.
by extending the axis of rotation, we are applying "leverage" to the assembly.
This moves the force outside the center of mass of the gyro.


When perfectly in the center, the linear forces cancel each other out exactly.
In all 46,656,000 directions.
This is one definition of the word "gyration"
Similar to Vibration, but applied in 3-dimensional space.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2018, 08:29:41 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2018, 08:39:38 PM »
When we apply a force to one axis,
The force force in turn applied to the other axis,
 by a factor of the mass and velocity of the gyro


A heavy gyro at very high speeds will amplify the applied force
at the cost of some of its angular momentum


In the center point of view, this is a direct transfer of momentum.
In our assembly, this is an applied torque, on the rotational axis
proportional to its' length. (note this length also affects the velocity of the rotation)


Also affected is the force, and the time we must apply it, to the axis.
A very long tilt axis, for example, we can apply less force to create the same precessional force.
At the cost of having to exert that force over a longer distance.
This follows the rules of Archimedean Leverage.


Fiction affects our designs, and it should be importantly noted a difference between friction
and restriction of motion.
While friction does restrict the motion, other associated losses add a different force applied
opposite to the precession, which translates to forces applied opposite to tilt.
It's a 3-way street.




Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2018, 08:54:25 PM »
Now is where the fun part begins, if you have followed up to this point:::


Applying a force to one axis, amplifies this force as rotation in the other axis.
(taking some momentum from the gyro)
This adds momentum in the direction of rotation in the precessional plane.
If we now stop the precession, this amplifies it again, back to the tilt plane.


And vice versa if we switch our perspective of the planes.


Tilt and precession are the same thing, in essence it is the inertial response of trying
to stop the gyro from the center of itself, by applying a perpendicular force.
Since the gyro is rotating, the vector of the reactive force is changing over time.
This force is applied to the axis 90-degrees from the applied.


If a gyro were allowed to wobble in such a way that the motion of one axis forms a double-cone
And the circles made at the base of the cones (outer ends of the axis) we made to turn two
flywheels, we store the energy of the gyro, split between two other gyros.
Once the gyro stops spinning, the machine reverses, only this time drains itself of all momentum into the environment. (gravity, friction, wind resistance, etc.)
As the flywheels run down.


In Woopy's see-saw model, we see this happening in a similar manner.
The momentum of the gyro is bled off to fight the gravitational force on the tilt axis.
When the motion is not constricted (i.e. when the level is able to actuate) gravity acting
on the precession causes tilt force, amplified by the angular momentum contributed from the gyro.
This lifts the weight of the gyro and see-saw platform, or rather applies torque to the mount.
Sufficient to lift it
When the angular momentum of the gyro has decreased enough, the force of gravity and the force
of tilt as the gyration response, equal out and the see-saw stays level.
It drops even further, and gravity wins completely.




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2018, 08:54:25 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2018, 09:00:07 PM »
If Woopy restricts the precession in the right way, while the tilt is restricted at the top
of the see-saw mechanism
The force will translate linearly, when it goes up
And in the opposite direction when it goes down.


If allowed freedom, the device should oscillate back and forth.
By allowing different degrees of freedom and restricting some
we can vector this force, more in the desired direction.


This is what is done by the original rotating device.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2018, 09:06:03 PM »
This mechanism Woopy found
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k


Could be used to extend the precessional arm
at the right moment, and transfer the momentum
in that direction.


(it is a combined vector of all the linear vectors of the force in the arc of extension)


That is the operating principal of the gyro-boat


With tilt completely restricted, the force is directly on the axis.
By extending the arm, we change th velocity of precession.
It can't instantly accelerate the mass and so the extension slows the rotation.
this is the "applied force"
The reactive force is on the tilt axis, which cannot tilt.
this is designed to be primarily in one direction, or one small arc of vectors, that sum
to the one.


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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2018, 09:06:03 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2018, 09:31:42 PM »
Where arm is retracted, the precession will accelerate,
if this acceleration is then restricted, and tilt is restricted,
acceleration is in the plane of rotation of the gyro.
(in free space this leads to a questionable situation we have not tested)


This is one of only two situations that mathematically allow this.


The other can be demonstrated on a tabletop version by tilting the gyro
restricting tilt and precession, and applying a force, which speeds the gyro.


This is opposite of the mechanism by which precession and tilt are exhibited.


The spinning mass wants to be left alone in its plane of rotation.
Any change to this plane, causes an opposing force. Momentum is conserved.
We like to break things down into our reference of 3-d.
But the gyro sees 46.656 million directions of its rotational mass.
Each one is affected differently at each instant, based on the angular velocity of the mass,
and it's mass (and it's rest mass and c in the expanded view)


By controlling which of these directions (from the perspective of the gyro) that we affect by
our applied force, we vector the response force on the perpendicular axis in a desired direction.
This is a combination of the instantaneous force vectors and magnitudes over the time of our
change in applied force.
When considered in each of the two perpendicular axes (from the perspective of the gyro)
we can determine the summed vector and force applied to the assembly during the time of the change.






Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #147 on: March 01, 2018, 09:36:17 PM »
We see by this model, that in the twin swinging pendulum gyros
much of the linear force is pointed downward.
The sum of the force vectors during the time of the change of tilt with respect to precession


Only some of the force is in the desired direction.
much is being sent to the table.
To fix this may become a gravitational issue.
But a slight angle may help to realize the mechanism,
without too much detriment.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2018, 09:48:13 PM »
What many people have trouble realizing
if the difference between force and momentum.
While momentum can present itself as a force when it interacts
they are not the same thing.


In the same note, force can create momentum.
Which is then conserved, whether the force is conserved or not.


Changes in momentum can result in a force greater than the counterforce of that which
caused the change.


If the original horizontal track were oriented perfectly 180-degrees with the up/down tilt
we would have equal and opposite forces at play.
By narrowing one side, and expanding the other, the forces are dispersed differently
on one side, than the other.
And the counter forces at play during the time of the change (up or down)
change in vector.
By expanding or contracting the duration and magnitude of the change
we are changing the magnitude and vector of the reactive forces.


Restriction changes the axis, as well as applying the multiplication factor of the gyro


Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #149 on: March 02, 2018, 11:43:56 AM »
Hi conrad

Very nice gyro and you know what, you are very lucky to get one  because they are already out of sock and if you want one you have to preorder. Big succes thi gyro.

Today is also a good day, because i made a new test with my vertical device and the new track and without the grip band.

So i remake the suspended wheel andthis time i made a triple parallel kevlar monotoron of only 35 cm lenght. So strong enough to support the wobling of the device.

then i put the device on and wait until the swing are optimised and stable.
Then i pusched slightly the suspended wheel BACKWARDS to see what happen.

The device goes very slowly bacwards slows down and at about 3/4 of backwards turn it stops and very slowly goes forwards

so the results

turn 1 in 1 minute and 43 sec

turn 2   53 sec

turn 3  43 sec

turn 4  34 sec

turn  5  31 sec

turn 6  29 sec

stop because the monotoron is winding up

voila

Laurent


 

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