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Author Topic: inertial propulsion with gyroscope  (Read 21834 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2018, 02:51:43 AM »
Conrad: You are on the verge of discovering something _very_ interesting indeed, and I don't mean stick-slip friction.

Your stepper motor should be capable of driving the gyro in "forced precession", that is, driving around the vertical axis faster than it would normally precess. This will make the gyro climb up in the nod axis. The stepper motor will feel the weight of the gyro as it nods upwards. If you incorporate a travel stop such that the gyro nods up and hits this stop and cannot nod up further.... the stepper motor no longer will feel the weight of the gyro. If you have your stepper motor driver set to a constant speed, the power to drive the motor should go down, as long as the nodding gyro is up against the upper travel stop. If the motor can accelerate here, it will. It is as if the weight of the gyro vanishes, as long as the setup is turning faster than its normal precession speed with gyro nodding downwards.  It's easier to see this effect if there is a one-way clutch bearing where the nod arm connects to the stepper shaft, so that the gyro and arm can coast while the stepper is stopped.

Here's a shot of an apparatus constructed to explore this remarkable effect:


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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2018, 02:51:43 AM »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #121 on: February 27, 2018, 12:37:08 PM »
Conrad: You are on the verge of discovering something _very_ interesting indeed, and I don't mean stick-slip friction.

Your stepper motor should be capable of driving the gyro in "forced precession", that is, driving around the vertical axis faster than it would normally precess. This will make the gyro climb up in the nod axis. The stepper motor will feel the weight of the gyro as it nods upwards. If you incorporate a travel stop such that the gyro nods up and hits this stop and cannot nod up further.... the stepper motor no longer will feel the weight of the gyro. If you have your stepper motor driver set to a constant speed, the power to drive the motor should go down, as long as the nodding gyro is up against the upper travel stop. If the motor can accelerate here, it will. It is as if the weight of the gyro vanishes, as long as the setup is turning faster than its normal precession speed with gyro nodding downwards.  It's easier to see this effect if there is a one-way clutch bearing where the nod arm connects to the stepper shaft, so that the gyro and arm can coast while the stepper is stopped.

Here's a shot of an apparatus constructed to explore this remarkable effect:

@TinselKoala: Thank you for the information, it helps a lot and will give my future tests some direction. It is always a great help if knowledge or test results are shared. The next experimenter can step on the shoulders of the previous one to avoid the errors of the past. It is also great that Laurent is openly sharing his tests. No one can become rich with a "space drive". Even if something would work, no individual could bear the costs and complexity of development and specially space tests. As the world goes the wrong people will get rich in the end.

Yesterday I played a bit with my set up by spinning up the gyro with a Dremel tool and turning the stepper motor by hand.

Observations:

- As you say, I observed the climbing up and down of the gyro in the nod axis. One has to turn the gyro faster and faster as the gyro spins down to make it climb (nod).

- One has to turn the stepper motor faster than the normal procession speed of the gyro to make it nod up. On the other hand, one has to slow down below the normal procession speed to make the gyro nod down (up and down depends on the spin direction of the gyro).

- A great riddle for me is the "travel stop" issue (and the alleged apparent disappearing or increasing of the weight of the gyro). Imagine that one has the gyro on an arm rigidly fixed to the stepper motor axis (as I did with dead weights some years ago). This would mean "travel stops" on top and below the gyro in your diction, which would keep the gyro from nodding up and down. Fiala says in his patent that the gyro only needs to nod a few degrees. And I guess that this slight nod is only necessary to engage the "track" for propulsion on one half circle (speeding up) and for disengaging the track on the second half circle (breaking).

So, do we need the nodding at all? Can one rigidly fix the gyros to the stepper motors (with a simple arm clamped to the axis of the stepper motor) and do everything by accelerating and decelerating the stepper motors in the right way? That would be great because it simplifies the mechanical set up enormously and one could build a compact "space drive" with four stepper motors (even only with two stepper motors with the axle protruding on both sides) and four gyros.

If the "rowing" (including the rigid mount of the gyros) works, it would further simplify the mechanical set up, because the power lines for the gyros could be implemented without sliding contacts (simply wires which can move a bit). I have to find out how NASA keeps the four gyros or reaction wheels (in the attitude control mechanism) spinning. How do they lead electrical power to the gyros (to their electric motors) on the gimbals? Sliding contacts like brushes in a DC motor?

Well, much to test an to find out. Yesterday I spoke with a friend who studied mechanics and he claimed that he even calculated the precession forces of gyroscopes at university. Once I posed the "rigidly fixed gyros" question, he was surprised and clueless (he never thought of that). There still are riddles in the gyroscopes. Maybe it is my lack of knowledge in this area and I suspect that all space faring nations had explored gyroscopes extensively because a replacement for rockets would be the the door to the heavens. Image a spacecraft with photovoltaic panels driving gyros with electric motors. If such a vehicle could produce forward thrust it could go everywhere in the solar system without fuel (the electricity coming from the sun via the photovoltaic panels). And to go away from the sun to interstellar space one could use an atomic reactor (producing heat) and Peltier elements for electricity production. Well, countless "inventors" have dreamt about this for a hundred years, it is a trivial idea.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #122 on: February 27, 2018, 04:49:26 PM »
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710022895.pdf


Nod control can be important as well
Achievable through an additional motor
3 dimensions of force
Each integrated into the other two

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #122 on: February 27, 2018, 04:49:26 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #123 on: February 27, 2018, 05:35:57 PM »
Using a quantity derived from the vectored moment of inertia, a universal constant,
the vectored gravitational force, and the rate of change in angular velocity:


An equation can be set up such that


Gyration= tilt/precession


When tilt and/or precession are forced in such a way that the gyration side of the equation
decreases in magnitude
The gyro will slow its spin in perfect accordance with the mathematical model.


We see clearly through this analysis, that the precession and tilt forces are decreasing the
rate of gyration (slowing down the gyro)
There is no anomalous energy being created, since both tilt and precession are a direct transfer
of momentum from the gyrating mass.


In many set-ups this is not something you can easily observe, since the rate of change in the gyros
rotation is comparably small. we can however, observe differences in the "run down" time.
By plotting these across a series of tests, we see the proportional relationship above.


With precision control of the 3-axis gimble, we can control the arc path of the axis in 3-d space.


As we decrease the change in the path in a single dimension,
(meaning the arc-circumferential distance of the path that is changing)
while increasing the velocity
along that path, the force becomes increasingly linear.
If we do the same while decreasing the velocity, the vector is reversed.


The opposite is true, when we increase the change in path
increasing the velocity in that path, our would-be linear force becomes an increasing number
of vectored forces, which cancel with the vector of our desired force.
Decreasing the velocity does the same, but in the opposite vector.


From this is derived the second proportional relationship, that says:


Change in path / change in velocity = magnitude of the chance / change in T
(T here being the period of the change in path)


These relationships define the change in direction and velocity of the gyrating mass
in each of the three gimbled axes.
When we know the torque added by the motors
We can split this out, and we see that total momentum of the gyrating mass is conserved.
Not conserved for us, because we have motors that can add more momentum.


Expanding the equations to include the Newtonian force, we can define the transfer of
momentum from one gimbled axis to the other two.
We can further simplify this equation as it pertains to the added torque
(+ or - torque cause by our motors in their respective axis)


to derive a proportional relationship between the change in the
absolute angular velocity of the gyrating mass
and the change in angular velocity in each of the 3 gimbles
as a factor of applied motor torque (increase or decrease)






Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2018, 05:38:56 PM »
Hi conrad

Super the montage, i hope it will offer you the max of possibilites to go forward.

As you can see, i have suppressed the video part 11 and replace it by a part 12

The reason is that i have redo the test, but with a much better gyro and a stable cart (no wobling + electric wire very free to move) and on a substrate very smooth. And i cannot detect a difference between the gyro spinning or not. So this device is really tricky and fooling, but you are a very good worker so i don't make too much worry for your results.

The good thing of this is that it seems to confirm that M. Fiala is right when he say that a spinning and rotating gyro if he cannot precess vertically (it is forced to rotate on a planar path), keep all it's inertia. Now why my device is drifting to the right on the marbles stays mystery, perhaps a slightly difference in the ball bearing or else ?

So i made the part 12  on a balance. The gyro is always in constrain precession (forced on a planar path rotation) and we can see that it exhibit a very strong torque able to inverse what should be . Very unintuitiv. Is it only the gyroscopic torque or is it something to do with what M. Laithwaite named "mass transfer" ? I don't know .

https://youtu.be/Qs07aj_ZWj8

Now how can we test if the gyro looses inertia and angular momentum when he can precess freely (after the free fall). Perhaps and hopefully your stepper motors will offer an answer



Hi TK

Very nice build, any video to see it working ?

Laurent


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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2018, 05:38:56 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2018, 06:54:27 PM »
Using the knowledge of these relationships
We can set-up a controlled 3-axis gimble system
Wherein 3 identical motors control the rotation of 3 identical masses
And by variable resistance, control the speed of their rotation


Old Atari style gaming joysticks are designed in a way
where we can implement the varying resistance
(in almost 50% of complete control)
And by including a switchable inversion circuit, handle the opposite 50%
of the vectors from the perspective of our inertial plane.


A "pilot" in the center of these gimbles experiences a linear force
the vector of which is a combination of the vectored force on each gimbled axis
in response to the resistance of the current to the drive motors, at that instant.


in a training simulation, the gimbles axes are fixed in space.
However, in free space, the axes feel the same forces felt by the pilot,
who is also rotating, but to each their respective magnitude and vector.
The combination of which applies a vectored force to the entire mass.


The simulation trains the pilots to stabilize the combined vectored forces
to control free-fall spin in a gravitational field.
In the real shuttles, this gimble control was replaced with
areal rutter systems, similar to those found in fighter jets.


This allows this allows the pilot to apply force to the axes of rotation
in each of the 3 dimensions, with respect to the pilots reference plane.
The goal being to stabilize the craft.


If the goal was the opposite, it's a matter or further training
we can learn by the same system to apply a vectored force on each of the 3 axes
and cause a force to be applied to the mounted the device is attached to.
This causes wear on the system in the mounted version, in the vector of the applied
force.


In the free space example, is force is applied to the rotating mass, in that vector.


One such machine is on public display in the space center in Houston, Tx.
On occasion, you can observe an elected participant or a youth in one of the space
programs, operating the simulator.


On even rarer occasion, you meet someone who has become good at it.
And they can describe to you how the whole machine tries to rip itself off in
each of the 3 directions as they try to orient themselves upright to their surroundings


Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2018, 07:11:59 PM »
Hi conrad

i reread your post concerning the very small vertical precession freedom in the Fiala description. It can be effectively very small almost touching the track but to me  it is mandatory.

And i would add that if you observe my video in general, it seems that the ratio of duration of the traction part to the free precessing part is about 1/2.

Si i will try to "force" the traction  on a portion of the track and then help the free precession back (same distance), but 2 time slower. If you see what i mean.

And i am looking for a servo  or stepper motor, linear solenoid or anything which could rotate half a turn , or push a certain distance in a certain time and back 2 time faster.

Any idea

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2018, 07:11:59 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2018, 07:15:38 PM »
The point of this being, that these proportional relationships hold true
wether in Newtonian mechanics, or the full expanded version in a Hamiltonian space.


Another proportional relationship can be established between the magnitude of the vectored forces
and the rotating mass, with respect to each gimbled axis.
By increasing or decreasing the masses rotating about each gimble, we can cause
each of the 3 forces increase or decrease in magnitude.


By increasing the radius about the axis of rotation, we proportionately increase the
torque applied to the respective axis.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #128 on: February 27, 2018, 07:27:37 PM »
Hi conrad

i reread your post concerning the very small vertical precession freedom in the Fiala description. It can be effectively very small almost touching the track but to me  it is mandatory.

And i would add that if you observe my video in general, it seems that the ratio of duration of the traction part to the free precessing part is about 1/2.

Si i will try to "force" the traction  on a portion of the track and then help the free precession back (same distance), but 2 time slower. If you see what i mean.

And i am looking for a servo  or stepper motor, linear solenoid or anything which could rotate half a turn , or push a certain distance in a certain time and back 2 time faster.

Any idea

Laurent


With a bit of programming a computer hard drive motor and circuit
could be used to perform the desired function.


Another option would be to control a similar stepper motor with a less complex IC chip.
and a small circuit.
The 555 can be usd with a few circuits to do this.
there are better ways to do this but I'm not the best to ask.
So I offer this as an example
Mine would handle it differently, other people would engineer a better control circuit
https://circuitdigest.com/electronic-circuits/stepper-motor-driver


The basic idea being to supply a current to the motor for a duration of time
that gives the appropriate "steps" in the proper direction for what you are trying to do.


The same circuit can be modified to handle a D.C. Motor, and wormgear on an arc-track
placed some distance along the arm.
Though this method restricts certain forces which get translated to the mounts of the actuator.
These may or may not be the forces you are attempting to harness.
So I would avoid that option,  but really depends on your design.






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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #128 on: February 27, 2018, 07:27:37 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #129 on: February 27, 2018, 08:49:09 PM »
Hi conrad

i reread your post concerning the very small vertical precession freedom in the Fiala description. It can be effectively very small almost touching the track but to me  it is mandatory.

And i would add that if you observe my video in general, it seems that the ratio of duration of the traction part to the free precessing part is about 1/2.

Si i will try to "force" the traction  on a portion of the track and then help the free precession back (same distance), but 2 time slower. If you see what i mean.

And i am looking for a servo  or stepper motor, linear solenoid or anything which could rotate half a turn , or push a certain distance in a certain time and back 2 time faster.

Any idea

Laurent

@Laurent: I looked into all three things (solenoid, servo or stepper motor).

Solenoid: you could do your machine which was inclined with a solenoid. The solenoid pushes the gyro on the arm up the inclined track very fast and then it falls back down the incline to the resting position by gravity. But the solenoid gives you practically only one speed (very fast).
https://www.conrad.at/de/hubmagnet-selbsthaltend-2-n-12-n-12-vdc-12-w-ebe-group-k10sl-503714.html (I have similar solenoids of different strength and size, push and pull, but I gave up on the idea).
 
Servo: A servo basically gives you also only one turning speed. You could use the servo like a solenoid for a push (arm with gyro moves) up the incline and then again a free fall down the incline. You could easily adjust the length of the push with a servo, which would be nice. And the best way to control a servo is again with an Arduino (you will NOT need a motor shield). I also gave up this idea.


Stepper Motor: This is the only motor I know for precise turning speed, turning direction and position control. The bummer is the programming. A stepper motor needs a rather complicated program (with interrupt handling at least for the "home" position sensor) to make it do interesting movements. The adafruit motor shield with an Arduino Uno Rev3 gives you a rather cheap programming means (about EUR 60.-- and for EUR 12.-- you get a decent stepper motor). The stepper motor is also a power hog (1 to 2 Ampere each), which means a lot of batteries on the moving platform. And of course the big question: are you into programming? Everybody can learn programming, but how much time do you want to spend on the learning effort? I can give you the program, but it has to be adjusted to your stepper motors and for each specific test, maybe frequent redesigns are necessary if things do not work as expected. So, stepper motors are the way forward, but do you do programming? Although I did system engineering level programming in industrial control for seven years (and have an informatics and mathematics background) I will still spend countless hours on the program till it works as intended. But maybe I am a brain dwarf and I also have become a slow old man.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2018, 09:59:39 PM »
IC’s allow for a more simplistic stepper motor control


Especially if you only need a few steps


You can time it with a sensor input, photosensor, reed switch, etc.
mechanical switch or what have you, to allow for multiple events
with a degree of synchronization.


The IC can be used to create a timed event in a cycle
or in response to an input to one of its pins.
Or both if you wanted to.


You can tell it to deliver a pulse of x for time T1
and a pulse of -2x for time T2
where x is whatever voltage and current you are using.


All this is done with the prefabricated gates and switches
built into the integrated circuit. This takes the software out of it.
You just connect the pins the way you need them
and supply the appropriate input powers.

If you want to use software control there is no need to
write your own software.


Hard drive control modules can be used.
The code is already there for us.
Sort of fill in the blank location that handles
both 360-degrees of rotation in tiny tiny increments
with extreme accuracy
but also the radial distance from the axis
It’s already set up for complete arc-radial control.


There’s a built-in speed function
and most of the rest of the code can be cut out


we can remove the additional hardware and attach our
devices directly to the motor.
Has a pretty large footprint and more inertial mass
and probably more power requirements than just an IC
But any way you go with that will require an advanced chip
memory storage and higher power requirements.
And possibly knowledge of software engineering.
Seems like the extra package of an old hard drive
could be worth carrying, for the time may save.













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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2018, 09:59:39 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #131 on: February 28, 2018, 01:09:35 AM »
@Laurent: your part 12 video is great (clever test) and it taught me something new (at least new for me). It is also instructive that the gyroscope must have a minimum high turning speed in order to exhibit its strangeness in a real world contraption. I learn very much from your videos and it makes my replication more directed in the right research direction. You are the forerunner into the wilderness paving a way for me and others to follow.

I uploaded a video to my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ObaUz8sqkY (it is just idle talk, a presentation of the components that go into my replication, nothing moves yet)

I just learned that it is not a good idea to upload a 4K video to YouTube, it takes ages. But YouTube will present the 4K quality version if you have a high speed internet connection. (I use the Panasonic HC-VX989 Camcorder which I like a lot. For its price of about EUR 560.-- it offers a lot. But some smartphones can now do similar quality videos.)

Greetings, Conrad

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #132 on: February 28, 2018, 02:41:41 AM »
E^2 = (mvc^2) + (mc^2)^2 = (mgh)^2


This is the brief moment when the see saw goes neither up nor down
> or < defines the up/down condition





Offline woopy

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #133 on: February 28, 2018, 09:38:42 AM »
Hi conrad

very well done video, and i can't wait to see the progress. I will learn also a lot for sure.

Thank's also for your propositions for the stepper motor. I have found in my drawer an old freeduino v1.16 and a arduino MEGA 2560. i will probably have to order the motor shield.

Will have a visit to the arduino retailor.

And out of topic you made my day when i have seen your video on the boyancy wheel. Very clever and so simple.


Laurent

Offline conradelektro

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Re: inertial propulsion with gyroscope
« Reply #134 on: February 28, 2018, 11:10:53 AM »

Thank's also for your propositions for the stepper motor. I have found in my drawer an old freeduino v1.16 and a arduino MEGA 2560. i will probably have to order the motor shield.

Will have a visit to the arduino retailor.


There are some Arduino Motor Shields and a lot of different Arduinos out there in the world and in drawers of enthusiasts. One has to investigate which works with which. I once bought the Arduino Due, but was annoyed by several compatibility problems specially with libraries. Now I use the Arduino Uno REV3 (only EUR 21.--). The Uno was always the most widely used Arduino and therefore most things (shields, libraries) worked with it.

You can now program the Arduino with the web browser https://create.arduino.cc/ . The library for the Adafruit Motor Shield V2.3 is #include <Adafruit_MotorShield.h> . Once I am confident that my Arduino Program works, I will of course share it with whoever wants it. If you harm yourself or if you become rich or if the men in black come to you is then your problem.

The Adfafruit Motor Shield V2.3 should work with the following Arduinos: cited from https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-motor-shield-v2-for-arduino/faq

==============================================================
What Arduinos is this shield compatible with?

It is tested to work with Duemilanove, Diecimila, Uno (all revisions), Leonardo and Mega/ADK R3 and higher.

It can work with Mega R2 and lower if you solder a jumper wire from the shield's SDA pin to Digital 20 and the SCL pin to Digital 21

For use with the Due or other 3.3v processors, you must configure the board for 3.3v logic levels. Find the set of 3 pads labeled "Logic". Cut the small trace between the center pad and 5v and add a jumper from 3.3v to the center.
==============================================================
#include <Adafruit_MotorShield.h>
Adafruit Motor Shield V2 Library library (written for ANY architecture) supports:

101, Adafruit Circuit Playground, Adafruit Circuit Playground Express, Due, Duemilanove, Esplora, Ethernet, Industrial 101, Intel x86 Boards, Intel x86_64 Boards / IoT Gateways, Leonardo, Leonardo ETH, LilyPad Arduino, LilyPad USB, Linino One, littleBits w6 Module (Leonardo), M0, M0 Pro, Mega ADK, Mega or Mega 2560, Micro, Mini, MKR FOX 1200, MKR GSM 1400, MKR WAN 1300, MKR1000, MKRZERO, Nano, Primo, Primo Core, Pro or Pro Mini, Robot, Star OTTO, Tian, Uno, Uno WiFi, UP² Board, Windows 10 IoT Core, Yún, Yún Mini, Zero
================================================================================


For powering the Arduino on a spacecraft I use the following AA battery or AA rechargeable battery box:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B078HDGBJC/ref=pe_3044161_189395811_TE_dp_1
It might be a problem to power the stepper motors from the same batteries (if power for the motor shield comes via the Arduino) because the stepper motors might draw too much and the Arduino resets because of a brownout (Voltage drops too much). So, the stepper motors (the motor shield) might need their own batteries. A lot of batteries on a spacecraft, that is why it has to stay on earth for now.
I have not yet looked into the rechargeable LiPo accu packs, which might be much smaller (but more expensive and one needs a different charger).

Greetings, Conrad

 

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