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## Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: Tajerek on December 17, 2017, 01:40:33 PM

Title: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 17, 2017, 01:40:33 PM
The energy stored in a capacitor is a function of the voltage across it and the capacitance.

http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/electronics/capacitor_energy.png

Stepping up the voltage to any desired high value is very easy to do with the use of a high voltage module. Example is a flyback transformer. This means large amount of energy W can be created and stored inside a capacitor from any source of small input voltage and current. The time it takes to create this energy is calculated as 5 *RC, while RC being the time constant.

We have to select low ESB capacitor if we want to rapidly create this energy with a rate of hundreds of thousands of times each second.
I propose to dump this energy directly into an inductor after each recharge. When the LC tank circuit is in resonance the entirety of the capacitor energy is transferred to the inductor and stored in its magnetic field. The equation of this energy is
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/img1085.png

This means the previous electric energy is now to magnetic and thereby yielding desired amperage. Again the amount of amperage across the inductor does not depend on the source dipole at all.

The third stage of this energy creation is to direct this useful amperage we created across the inductor towards a load. I propose to do this by the use of coupled inductors. The set up is similar to a flyback converter circuit where the primary inductor stores the energy in the magnetic field then the secondary inductor releases it into the load, this insures the isolation from the high voltage side to the lower voltage high amperage side.

http://oi64.tinypic.com/ejv8mo.jpg

The winding ratio and the wire gauge used in the coupled inductor can be adjusted so to output the desired voltage and amperage.
The final circuit is the following:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/9a0eb8.jpg

The spark gap can be replaced with any switching mechanism, such as transistor, high voltage power Mosphet, mechanical relays, opto-coupler…etc The most important is to match resonant frequency of the LC to guarantee at each cycle the energy gets fully transferred from the electric field of the capacitor C1 to the magnetic field of the inductor L1. Then released by L2 in the form of current out to the load and output capacitor C2. I leave it up to the savvy experimenters to design the proper switching and ways of tuning the frequency.
As explained in the beginning, this quantity of energy W fed into the load is not by any means proportionally related to the input source since we can step up the voltage to any value and increase the energy. I confidently state that Overunity is scientifically proved by the calculations.
The generated energy is only a function of the components used and their proper tuning and relation to each other.
I will conclude by an insightful quote of Mr Nikola Tesla in support of my above claims:

Quote
Most of the results enumerated, and many others still more remarkable, are made possible only by utilizing the discharges of a condenser.  It is probable that but a very few--even among those who are working in these identical fields--fully appreciate what a wonderful instrument such a condenser is in reality.  Let me convey an idea to this effect.  One may take a condenser, small enough to go in one's vest pocket, and by skillfully using it he may create an electrical pressure vastly in excess--a hundred times greater if necessary--than any producible by the largest static machine ever constructed.  Or, he may take the same condenser and, using it in a different way, he may obtain from it currents against which those of the most powerful welding machine are utterly insignificant.  Those who are imbued with popular notions as to the pressures of static machines and currents obtainable with a commercial transformer, will be astonished at this statement--yet the truth of it is easy to see.  Such results are obtainable, and easily, because the condenser can discharge the stored energy in an inconceivably short time.  Nothing like this property is known in physical science.  A compressed spring, or a storage battery, or any other form of device capable of storing energy, cannot do this; if they could, things undreamt of at present might be accomplished by their means.  The nearest approach to a charged condenser is a high explosive, as dynamite.  But even the most violent explosion of such a compound bears no comparison with the discharge or explosion of a condenser.  For, while the pressures which are produced in the detonation of a chemical compound are measured in tens of tons per square inch, those which may be caused by condenser discharges may amount to thousands of tons per square inch, and if a chemical could be made which would explode as quickly as a condenser can be discharged under conditions which are realizable--an ounce of it would quite certainly be sufficient to render useless the largest battleship.
That important realizations would follow from the use of an instrument possessing such ideal properties I have been convinced since long ago, but I also recognized early that great difficulties would have to be overcome before it could replace less perfect implements now used in the arts for the manifold transformations of electrical energy.  These difficulties were many.  The condensers themselves, as usually manufactured, were inefficient, the conductors wasteful, the best insulation inadequate, and the conditions for the most efficient conversion were hard to adjust and to maintain.  One difficulty, however, which was more serious than the others, and to which I called attention when I first described this system of energy transformation, was found in the devices necessarily used for controlling the charges and discharges of the condenser.

Source:
HIGH FREQUENCY OSCILLATORS FOR ELECTRO-THERAPEUTIC AND OTHER PURPOSES
by Nikola Tesla
The Electrical Engineer.
Vol. XXVI.
November 17, 1898. No. 550

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: citfta on December 17, 2017, 10:12:08 PM
Higher voltage does NOT mean higher energy.  Another rookie mistake.  Higher voltage generated by whatever means always means lower current.  The total energy is actually less because of resistance losses.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 17, 2017, 10:51:19 PM
Higher voltage does NOT mean higher energy.  Another rookie mistake.  Higher voltage generated by whatever means always means lower current.  The total energy is actually less because of resistance losses.
Higher voltage doesn't mean higher power because P=U*I . And voltage is stepped up the current is reduced to conserve same overall power of less.

BUT I am not talking about that energy. What I am talking about is higher voltage means HIGHER ELECTRIC ENERGY STORED INSIDE THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF A CAPACITOR. It is energy that does not depend on the current my friend and amounts to 1/2 *C*V squared. Check the first formula in my previous post.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on December 17, 2017, 11:08:06 PM

True, but if you HV through a resonating coils system the rewards are much bigger.

Also a load behind a cap (and in my mind also the secondary of a ferrite transformer) do not know how much amps were used to charge it. Just how much voltage (or flux created by voltage) there was.

Just put a steel ring over your tesla coil and then discharge a cap to that coil. Use a 1000V 60mA source to charge the cap and then a 10A 1000V source. Does the ring jump higher with the 10A source?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 17, 2017, 11:08:26 PM
Higher voltage doesn't mean higher power because P=U*I . And voltage is stepped up the current is reduced to conserve same overall power of less.

BUT I am not talking about that energy. What I am talking about is higher voltage means HIGHER ELECTRIC ENERGY STORED INSIDE THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF A CAPACITOR. It is energy that does not depend on the current my friend and amounts to 1/2 *C*V squared. Check the first formula in my previous post.

Hi Tajerek. Unfortunately voltage alone does not cause a capacitor to become charged,
it takes current (flow of charge) to charge up a capacitor, which takes time (as indicated by
the RC time constant). Discharging a cap into a resonant tank circuit also does not (under normal
conditions) provide any more energy than what was stored in the capacitor. In order to achieve OU,
something very out of the ordinary will have to be going on, otherwise it should be easy to achieve OU,
but it seems it is not so easy at all to achieve OU. What do you think is very unusual about what
you are describing that will cause excess energy to be drawn into the setup you have described?

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 17, 2017, 11:42:09 PM
Hi Tajerek. Unfortunately voltage alone does not cause a capacitor to become charged,
it takes current (flow of charge) to charge up a capacitor, which takes time (as indicated by
the RC time constant). Discharging a cap into a resonant tank circuit also does not (under normal
conditions) provide any more energy than what was stored in the capacitor. In order to achieve OU,
something very out of the ordinary will have to be going on, otherwise it should be easy to achieve OU,
but it seems it is not so easy at all to achieve OU. What do you think is very unusual about what
you are describing that will cause excess energy to be drawn into the setup you have described?

All the best...
the HV source will of course have current but you don't need significant current to push charge into a low ESR high voltage capacitor. If you have doubts try it for yourself. And the time it takes for full recharge is 5*RC time constant which is doesn't depend on current either its formula speaks for itself. It is only function of the resistance and capacitance.

As example 3kv cap of 1uF with ESR of 0.3 ohm can store 4.5 joules in 0.000000015 s. This technically means you can charge it and recharge it 333k times per second. with a frequency up to 333khz. The time can be made shorter still by increasing voltage beyond the rating of the capacitor.

I do not discharge the cap into a resonating tank circuit as you stated, but I discharge it into inductor forming together the tank circuit only during discharge then the circuit is opened to recharge the cap again.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 17, 2017, 11:59:00 PM
the HV source will of course have current but you don't need significant current to push charge into a low ESR high voltage capacitor. If you have doubts try it for yourself. And the time it takes for full recharge is 5*RC time constant which is doesn't depend on current either its formula speaks for itself. It is only function of the resistance and capacitance.

As example 3kv cap of 1uF with ESR of 0.3 ohm can store 4.5 joules in 0.000000015 s. This technically means you can charge it and recharge it 333k times per second. with a frequency up to 333khz. The time can be made shorter still by increasing voltage beyond the rating of the capacitor.

I do not discharge the cap into a resonating tank circuit as you stated, but I discharge it into inductor forming together the tank circuit only during discharge then the circuit is opened to recharge the cap again.

Sorry but that is false. Whether a capacitor has a low ESR or not it still takes a flow of charge
to charge up the capacitor. This voltage times current means an expenditure of energy over time to charge
the capacitor, again regardless of the ESR of the capacitor. Just because a capacitor may charge
more quickly, it doesn't at all mean it takes less energy to charge the capacitor than the capacitor stores.

When the capacitor is connected across the inductor it forms a tank circuit. The energy that was stored in
the capacitor excites this tank circuit. :) This is a tank circuit. Whether a separate cap is used to form the
tank circuit is neither here nor there. Sorry, I don't see anything in your described setup that should
be doing anything out of the ordinary, and you haven't described anything so far that appears to be
out of the ordinary. You named this thread 'The secret to Overunity' but I see nothing out of the
ordinary with what you have described so far. Do you have a test setup that you think demonstrates anything
out of the ordinary going on?

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 12:33:51 AM
Sorry but that is false. Whether a capacitor has a low ESR or not it still takes a flow of charge
to charge up the capacitor.

the current when charging capacitor is not as the current across a resistive load.

The formula for finding the current while charging a capacitor is:

I=C*dV/dt

it is nothing more than the change of voltage over time. It is not related to the current of the source as much as the voltage.

take 9v source across a 3kv cap you will generate 0.0000405 joules in a time constant. Step up the same voltage to 10kv and put it across the same cap you will generate 5 joules in fraction of the time constant. You stored more energy but the power source is the same...that's the secret
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: citfta on December 18, 2017, 12:46:18 AM
Tajerek,

What you are proposing is very similar to the claims made by Don Smith.  In fact your circuit looks like a copy of one of Don Smith's circuits.  You should know that literally hundreds of people have tried to get at least one of his circuits to work like he claimed.  None of them to my knowledge have ever succeeded.

He made almost exactly the same claims as you.  You charge a cap with high voltage and then discharge it and somehow get extra energy.  There is no known way that discharging a cap will get any more power than was put into the cap.  That is a fact.

You need to actually build something and then prove it to yourself.  No amount of claims will convince most of us with real experience that you have discovered the secret of overunity until you can actually demonstrate it with a working circuit.  And copying Don Smith's work is not going to get you there.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 01:02:40 AM
There is no known way that discharging a cap will get any more power than was put into the cap.  That is a fact.

That's correct, I am not claiming to generate more than what the cap can store in one cycle, however what is in the cap is not directly related to how much you draw from the source. It is function of the voltage you put across the cap , the combined resistance R and C. Small current is only needed to get the charges across the combined resistance of the circuit, if that's small enough you literally need just voltage.

Don smith showed the devices, I am showing the formulas that prove it and therefore the ways to replicate it scientifically. Don didn't explain the theory and science behind his devices that's probably experimenters were guessing to replicate it. Also I don't think his aircore inductors were as efficient.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: forest on December 18, 2017, 01:32:33 AM
useless useless useless talk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_of_Columbus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_of_Columbus)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: forest on December 18, 2017, 01:33:52 AM
understanding what he would have said: that after the deed is done, everybody knows how to do it; [/font][/size]
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 18, 2017, 01:47:09 AM
the current when charging capacitor is not as the current across a resistive load.

The formula for finding the current while charging a capacitor is:

I=C*dV/dt

it is nothing more than the change of voltage over time. It is not related to the current of the source as much as the voltage.

take 9v source across a 3kv cap you will generate 0.0000405 joules in a time constant. Step up the same voltage to 10kv and put it across the same cap you will generate 5 joules in fraction of the time constant. You stored more energy but the power source is the same...that's the secret

Hi Tajerek. Again, a capacitor's voltage changes due to a change in charge distribution from one capacitor plate to the other.
Current is a flow of charges. It takes voltage (a potential difference) to cause the charge to move, yes, but this movement
of charge occurs at the expense of energy. It doesn't happen for 'free'.  Voltage times current means energy expended over time.
If there is no current flow between the plates of a capacitor then absolutely the capacitor won't charge up.

I'll say it again. Something very unusual would have to be happening for a system to gain more energy than is being
expended at the input of the circuit. I don't see anything unusual in what you have described so far.

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: citfta on December 18, 2017, 01:50:44 AM
That's correct, I am not claiming to generate more than what the cap can store in one cycle, however what is in the cap is not directly related to how much you draw from the source. It is function of the voltage you put across the cap , the combined resistance R and C. Small current is only needed to get the charges across the combined resistance of the circuit, if that's small enough you literally need just voltage.

Don smith showed the devices, I am showing the formulas that prove it and therefore the ways to replicate it scientifically. Don didn't explain the theory and science behind his devices that's probably experimenters were guessing to replicate it. Also I don't think his aircore inductors were as efficient.

That statement I highlighted is absolutely wrong.  Anyone with the most basic understanding of electronics can see the error of that statement.  What you are saying is the amount of water in a glass has nothing to do with the amount of water that ran from the faucet.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 01:57:57 AM
understanding what he would have said: that after the deed is done, everybody knows how to do it; [/font][/size]

If you think I am doing a copy of Don Smith device you are mistaken. I do not use CW and CCW coil like he does, my spark gap is not between the HW module and the cap, I do not use aircore but magnetic cores made of a ferromagnetic material able to store all the energy from the cap. I do not use radio transmission and any relation between length of wires like Don... maybe Don knew but hid the theory or didn't reveal everything on purpose.
What I am saying is easily provable by known scientific formulas and no able scientist can deny such scientific facts.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 02:08:21 AM
What you are saying is the amount of water in a glass has nothing to do with the amount of water that ran from the faucet.
No that's not what I am saying, what I say is the amount of water in the glass is related to the difference of POTENTIAL of the water and the glass, the quantity of the water source  ie. the voltage. Not the current.
It is not me who claim that, it is known formula that energy in capacitor doesn't depend on the current of the source.

I know it sounds strange but that's why it is the secret. You may read the quote of Tesla that I mentioned.

Charge on capacitor Q = C* V_source*[1-Exponential(-t/RC)]   --> the source current doesn't factor here
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: citfta on December 18, 2017, 02:25:23 AM
You are very confused about the relationship between voltage and current.  To properly relate it to the water analogy, the voltage is the pressure and the current is the quantity of water.  So your statement about the quantity of the water source being the same as the voltage is wrong.  To charge a capacitor to a higher voltage requires more energy.  You keep insisting it doesn't and that is where you are wrong.

I am done here.  It is clear you are not interested in learning why you are wrong.  You are going to have to build it yourself and then you will understand that it doesn't work like you want to believe it will.  Good luck.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 02:26:27 AM
What Tesla was talking about was a high-voltage (leyden jar type)
rolled foil condenser. While technically the same, these are not
like the low voltage capacitors we use today.

These were usually made with a wax in between the layers.
Later ones had a type of plastic, and metal casings were put around
them for safety in automobile ignition circuits.

The first photo shows the rolled type Tesla was mentioning
The second one shows a 1906 device demonstrating that they are
used as electron+positron pairs.

We use the earth sink as the positron source. So we don’t have to deal
with all that pesky 1/2 of the energy we use.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 18, 2017, 03:03:38 AM
You are going to have to build it yourself and then you will understand that it doesn't work like you want to believe it will.  Good luck.

Aye, anyone who has only done even the most basic of testing with capacitors would understand
that what Tajerek is saying here is based on misunderstanding of basic concepts. It takes energy
to charge up a capacitor. That energy has to come from somewhere. The suggestion that
applying high voltage to a capacitor will somehow magically cause a capacitor to charge up
without expending equivalent energy is simply not going to happen, *at least not under normal
conditions*. Something very unusual would have to be happening if a cap can charge up without
expending energy from the input power source that is being applied to the capacitor.

Yes, it seems pointless to explain things further when someone is not willing to give
due consideration to what is being said. :)

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 03:18:45 AM
Trying to locate the reference, but Tesla talked about how to discharge the condenser
Through a coil transformer and back to the condenser, reversing polarities.
Basically dumping it back onto the opposite plate after running it through the inductor.
This would cause it to continue to oscillate for a long time.

When you place a charge onto a capacitor plate, the other place will induce its own charge.
It doesn’t matter which plate or which polarity you choose.
It can be either plate, and + or - charge.
The real power (current part of the equation) comes from both charges.
Not just the charge you supply.

It’s opposite is drawn in from the environment

We use brute force technology instead of allowing the natural energy to flow.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 18, 2017, 07:22:39 AM
I suggest we read less textbook. And read more Tesla's literature. Reading too much textbook is bad for our brain and for our future generations.

In your text book, we are brainwashed to believe that increase in voltage will always come with decrease in current. This is a condition to make sure that you will always obey the laws of thermodynamics.

Conductive current can be ZERO. In electrostatic condition, higher voltage unfortunately means higher energy. Electrostatic condition does not need to mean a DC. What you need is to find a circuit with no conductive current. This circuit does not have to be Leydon jar or whatever. I understand such a circuit is difficult to find in your text book.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 18, 2017, 07:35:50 AM
In our text book, we have learned that Power = voltage x current. This means that, if current is zero, power is zero. Now, do you agree that we can save the world now?

(PS. I am afraid I need to be a bit sarcastic.)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 11:23:03 AM
Let’s take it a step further and examine the situation when we have
1-2Mv potential
Even at microAmperes,
What is the power level of a discharge?

Is this ‘static’?

Not to mention, at those voltages, energy density is so great
that we begin to affect physical matter itself.
This bridges the gap between electric theory and atomic physics.
All of our equations change at these voltages.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 18, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
This is static.
At this voltage, the air will be potentially subject to dielectric breakdown.
I don't know whether you want to talk about open circuit or closed circuit.

Let’s take it a step further and examine the situation when we have
1-2Mv potential
Even at microAmperes,
What is the power level of a discharge?

Is this ‘static’?

Not to mention, at those voltages, energy density is so great
that we begin to affect physical matter itself.
This bridges the gap between electric theory and atomic physics.
All of our equations change at these voltages.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 01:51:24 PM
“Subject To losses”?

Power is power. V*I

Whatever is lost after that is subtracted from the total.
It doesn’t change the total energy involved.

At what size does a static-electric generator
Equal to the power of a conventional steam-electric generator?

And how much “energy” has to be put into each to achieve this power?

“Static” is only static until you allow it to move.
In the same manner that the potential energy of a battery is “static”.
The same can be said of any capacitor.

The condenser can dump 100% of its energy at one time.
The ‘actual current’ is a large spike. The ‘average current over time’
Is the value commonly used, this is why it is often micro amps in quantity.
Instantaneous current is all induction cares about.
This is an important distinction when dealing with high frequencies.

You can melt steel with a ‘static’ discharge.
To do this with a conventional generator connected to an arc welder
Requires exponentially greater quantities of energy.

The math is available for both of these situations.

If we take an absolute value for the energy required, it becomes apparent that
Our conventional generator and arc welder are less than 1% efficient.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 01:54:31 PM

Impedance decreases with voltage.

Power = V/R

At what voltage does resistance through (any) matter
Approach 0?

Is the power available at these high voltages equal to the voltage itself?
Or are we talking about redefining our power equations?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on December 18, 2017, 02:08:17 PM
That statement I highlighted is absolutely wrong.  Anyone with the most basic understanding of electronics can see the error of that statement.  What you are saying is the amount of water in a glass has nothing to do with the amount of water that ran from the faucet.

I think what he is saying is that he has chosen to fill the glass with a small faucet, but massive pressure. It will fill up in the same time as using almost zero pressure and one drop from from a massive faucet.

Size of the glass does not change. Amount of charge is the same. But I would also like to see a video of his system :)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 02:28:48 PM
I think what he is saying is that he has chosen to fill the glass with a small faucet, but massive pressure. It will fill up in the same time as using almost zero pressure and one drop from from a massive faucet.

Size of the glass does not change. Amount of charge is the same. But I would also like to see a video of his system :)

This is a good analogy. In this example the size of the faucet
is like the voltage, the flow rate is the current.
And the “power” is the water that ends up in the glass.

The important thing to note is the ‘energy’ used to pressurize
the small faucet. Now I also will point out that we expend this great energy
so we can transport the water over long distances and has little to do with the
energy required to fill the glass.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on December 18, 2017, 02:55:53 PM
so we create a massive tension with low amps and with like a flyback. Then put that into a primary that resonates with secondary. There is the 'extra' you are looking for. Rectify into a cap = win

Only issue is how to decouple that cap and the load behind it from disturbing the resonance
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2017, 03:08:08 PM
I think the spark gap handles that part for us
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on December 18, 2017, 03:11:54 PM
I think the spark gap handles that part for us

Nice! So we can shut this forum down and start manufacturing. Going to create an anti-gravity forum next, so we can start exploring our solarsystem
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 18, 2017, 03:52:10 PM

Let’s take it a step further and examine the situation when we have
1-2Mv potential
Even at microAmperes,
What is the power level of a discharge?

Is this ‘static’?

Not to mention, at those voltages, energy density is so great
that we begin to affect physical matter itself.
This bridges the gap between electric theory and atomic physics.
All of our equations change at these voltages.

So!!  Is this mean Tajarek was right in the first statement he did???  It seems like he did...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on December 18, 2017, 04:47:50 PM
Perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Tajerek's ideas.

For a while now I have been thinking it may be a mistake to begin the cap charging process with either electromagnetic or electrochemical sources. Electrostatic seems like the logical place to begin, collecting the initial charge from the earth and air to charge capacitors with high voltage potential.
The amount of charge converted to electromagnetic would be a matter of system scale.

This line of thinking was reinforced when I read an interview of Tesla published after the destruction of Wardenclyffe. In the interview Tesla stated that the interior of the spherical dome of Wardenclyffe was to be charged to 50,000V by an influence machine.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: kEhYo77 on December 18, 2017, 05:44:02 PM
Regauging while not depleting the source... hmm

Would this work?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 09:47:45 PM
Regauging while not depleting the source... hmm

Would this work?
yes this would work with exception that you need HV DC not AC. AC would work but there's loss in energy.
Some more calculations have to fall in place though for optimum results.
for instance the wire gauge used in the L2 inductor should be able to carry the current. The winding ratio also of the coupled inductor. And the rate of discharge across the spark gap to match as much as possible the tank circuit formed by C1 and L1 to guarantee the full energy is dumped from the cap to the inductor core. The choice of the diode also should not strangle the output current.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: kEhYo77 on December 18, 2017, 09:56:36 PM
Well, it is not the same, mine is more like Tesla's Hairpin circuit.
I am not using any power from the source, only potential difference of the electric field to seperate the charges between two inner capacitor plates... :)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 18, 2017, 10:18:58 PM

yes this would work, that is the same design I shared in my article. Some more calculations have to fall in place though for optimum results.
for instance the wire gauge used in the L2 inductor should be able to carry the current. The winding ratio also of the coupled inductor. And the rate of discharge across the spark gap to match as much as possible the tank circuit formed by C1 and L1 to guarantee the full energy is dumped from the cap to the inductor core. The choice of the diode also should not strangle the output current.

Excuse to suggest an arrangement I have seen correcting the Don Smith schematics..  That`s what I suggest to maximize the potential...  Like your schematic suggest, the spark gap and the capacitive plates need to be inverted or exchanged with each other...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 10:29:22 PM
I suggest we read less textbook. And read more Tesla's literature. Reading too much textbook is bad for our brain and for our future generations.

In your text book, we are brainwashed to believe that increase in voltage will always come with decrease in current. This is a condition to make sure that you will always obey the laws of thermodynamics.

The truth of the matter is that you don't even need to throw away the text books, because I am using textbook formulas where overunity is staring people in the face. But when a person is indoctrinated to believe something even if the formula is in front of them they won't be able to see it.

I will list here a known proved text book formulas that any person with engineering background cannot dismiss, they bear the secret to overunity that I am talking about . It all lies in the intrinsec properties of the capacitor itself, most people even in this forum treat the cap as a 'resistive' load consuming power equal to V*I . But that is not the case

Formula 1) The 'displacement' current across a capacitor is I = C*dV/dt

Meaning : it is the voltage change overtime that creates what looks like current across the capacitor, but that is NOT current coming from the source of the varying voltage but current created across the capacitor as a result. It is just displacement current to goes to zero when cap is filled up and then the cap acts like an open circuit to DC. ie no current again from the source.

Notice that the formula defines that 'instantaneous current' in relation to the source voltage and C and Nothing more. --> current from the source is not of any value here.

Formula 2) The Charge on capacitor Q = C* V_source*[1-Exponential(-t/RC)]

This is again great secret for those who can see. Notice how the charge (ie. the energy) overtime is defined in relation only the voltage of the source , R , and C . No mention of current here because it doesn't affect the charge on the cap. Only voltage does. You don't believe it ? look again at the formula. The overunity secret is right there.

Formula 3) The energy stored in a capacitor is E = 1/2*C*V sqr

This sums it all up. The energy is directly related to the voltage across the cap and C. NO source current is present here. What does this mean? it means if you want to increase E, you just have to increase V or C. There's nothing to do with the current of the source.

Formula 4) The time taken to fully charge a cap from a voltage source is 5*R*C

If you think with low current the cap will take forever to charge and therefore impractical, then this formula tells you that the time constant is not in anyway related to the current of the source, but in direct relation to R and C and nothing more.
---------

The rest of the invention is just conventional science to efficiently extract that energy from the cap and convert it into a useful current. I do that by the use of inductors.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 11:00:55 PM
Well, it is not the same, mine is more like Tesla's Hairpin circuit.
I am not using any power from the source, only potential difference of the electric field to seperate the charges between two inner capacitor plates... :)

You are right I didn't pay attention you put 2 caps. But you have 2 caps in series which are nothing more that one cap wher 1/C=1/C1 + 1/C2
Tesla hairpin is slightly different but I don't think your design would give most efficient output.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 18, 2017, 11:07:50 PM

the spark gap and the capacitive plates need to be inverted or exchanged with each other...
Not really, if you put the spark gap across the Highvoltage module, you would be arching the High voltage though the spark gap. That doesn't give anything. Moreover without arching through the gap the cap doesn't charge.

What we are after is "the disruptive discharge of the condenser" as Tesla calls it. So we need to maximize the charge flowing directly to the capacitor by directly connecting the cap to the HV side , then when the cap is charged to a full it discharges disruptively through the gap. And by doing so a surge of current flows to L1.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: RoliK on December 18, 2017, 11:38:22 PM
Would be nice if it so easy, but u are wrong.

Formula 4) The time taken to fully charge a cap from a voltage source is 5*R*C

Yes, formula is true but in your schematics R is very low like a short circuit. So I=U/R, that means a huge amount of current.....

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 18, 2017, 11:49:41 PM

Not really, if you put the spark gap across the Highvoltage module, you would be arching the High voltage though the spark gap. That doesn't give anything. Moreover without arching through the gap the cap doesn't charge.

What we are after is "the disruptive discharge of the condenser" as Tesla calls it. So we need to maximize the charge flowing directly to the capacitor by directly connecting the cap to the HV side , then when the cap is charged to a full it discharges disruptively through the gap. And by doing so a surge of current flows to L1.

The charge TIME is to be consider for the power transfer..  Look at scopes shot of a disruptive high voltage trough a spark gap and the RAISING TIME occupy most of the screen..  The relation between the L1 and L2 is directly related to raise and surge of L1 because L2 has it`s capacitance and is acting 180 degree trough the curent cycle... This will give the L2 a more sinusoidal wave given a full amplitude.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: tomd on December 19, 2017, 02:46:41 AM

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 19, 2017, 03:20:26 AM

It was discussed that the correct schematic should be like this
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 19, 2017, 04:39:47 AM
The truth of the matter is that you don't even need to throw away the text books, because I am using textbook formulas where overunity is staring people in the face. But when a person is indoctrinated to believe something even if the formula is in front of them they won't be able to see it.

I will list here a known proved text book formulas that any person with engineering background cannot dismiss, they bear the secret to overunity that I am talking about . It all lies in the intrinsec properties of the capacitor itself, most people even in this forum treat the cap as a 'resistive' load consuming power equal to V*I . But that is not the case

Formula 1) The 'displacement' current across a capacitor is I = C*dV/dt

Meaning : it is the voltage change overtime that creates what looks like current across the capacitor, but that is NOT current coming from the source of the varying voltage but current created across the capacitor as a result. It is just displacement current to goes to zero when cap is filled up and then the cap acts like an open circuit to DC. ie no current again from the source.

Notice that the formula defines that 'instantaneous current' in relation to the source voltage and C and Nothing more. --> current from the source is not of any value here.

Formula 2) The Charge on capacitor Q = C* V_source*[1-Exponential(-t/RC)]

This is again great secret for those who can see. Notice how the charge (ie. the energy) overtime is defined in relation only the voltage of the source , R , and C . No mention of current here because it doesn't affect the charge on the cap. Only voltage does. You don't believe it ? look again at the formula. The overunity secret is right there.

Formula 3) The energy stored in a capacitor is E = 1/2*C*V sqr

This sums it all up. The energy is directly related to the voltage across the cap and C. NO source current is present here. What does this mean? it means if you want to increase E, you just have to increase V or C. There's nothing to do with the current of the source.

Formula 4) The time taken to fully charge a cap from a voltage source is 5*R*C

If you think with low current the cap will take forever to charge and therefore impractical, then this formula tells you that the time constant is not in anyway related to the current of the source, but in direct relation to R and C and nothing more.
---------

The rest of the invention is just conventional science to efficiently extract that energy from the cap and convert it into a useful current. I do that by the use of inductors.

Carve that in stone

Pepper - thank you for pointing out the time factor (nice tc sketch)
Tessa wrote that it was the Frequency that determined the factor of the capacitor
that we now attribute to "power" when it is fully charged.
And this value was dependent upon the electrostatic machine of choice.
He then goes on to talk about some source from the stars that is better than any such machine
And i still haven't figured that one out.... all I know for certain is that it was some metal
In a perfect square to match some frequency
That is abundantly available in our radio-spectrum.
And he could cause tiny oscillations to go through (see peppers schematic) and cause
Very high voltages to occur.
At some high frequency, that was what he considered to be "the best"

Aside from that, the "best" I have found (per radius, and thus mass needed to be rotated)
Is that made by Robert Voss in 1880.

A well respected member recommended using two bare plexiglass (or glass) disks.
In counter rotation
I haven't tried this yet
But what we know from Van de Graff, and our materials list
Plexi taking a neutral stance
The charges should be simply a factor of surface area, no materials constants involved.
(charge reversal has delayed my research here)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 19, 2017, 04:56:23 AM
I have to take a step outside of conventional electricity when it comes to static induction machines

Science tries their best to relate the two technologies.
They even go so far as to mimick the other, with step-up transformers

But it is still not the same. We still cannot tame the static, anymore than we can bring our
Electricity to life.

Period.

The old form of energy directly affects physical matter.
It comes explicitly in two phases.
I know these to be electrons, and positrons.

Our electricity only uses one half.

We don't have the technology to prove it, or I should I say our technology is not capable.
Because it only uses half.

But I can prove it atomically, and I can prove it by the effects it has on physical matter.
Our form of electricity cannot.

We can make a positron now, with our particle accelerators and high powered lasers
Mathematically they are the same thing that is in our "positive" Leyden jar.

Vitreous
And
Resinous

Electrons
And
Positrons

The two together are E=mc^2
Electron = 1/2mc^2 or 1.602 x 10^-19 J

I'm not sure if opening one end of two capacitors (+/-) would be the same thing....
One to ground, one to +
But you would have to run a secondary identical circuit off the two open leads.
And allow the induced voltages to oscillate 180-degrees out of phase.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 19, 2017, 05:38:52 AM
I have tamed the static.

Some of it anyway.   8)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 19, 2017, 08:01:55 AM
You are right if you are talking about a closed circuit. The total energy should be from the source if the environment factor remains normal.

“Subject To losses”?

Power is power. V*I

Whatever is lost after that is subtracted from the total.
It doesn’t change the total energy involved.

At what size does a static-electric generator
Equal to the power of a conventional steam-electric generator?

And how much “energy” has to be put into each to achieve this power?

“Static” is only static until you allow it to move.
In the same manner that the potential energy of a battery is “static”.
The same can be said of any capacitor.

The condenser can dump 100% of its energy at one time.
The ‘actual current’ is a large spike. The ‘average current over time’
Is the value commonly used, this is why it is often micro amps in quantity.
Instantaneous current is all induction cares about.
This is an important distinction when dealing with high frequencies.

You can melt steel with a ‘static’ discharge.
To do this with a conventional generator connected to an arc welder
Requires exponentially greater quantities of energy.

The math is available for both of these situations.

If we take an absolute value for the energy required, it becomes apparent that
Our conventional generator and arc welder are less than 1% efficient.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 19, 2017, 08:09:15 AM

I am not sure what you are talking about.
From what i can see there is no secret here if your circuit is a simple closed circuit. No secret means that there is no OU.  [size=78%]There is nothing abnormal unless R<=0.[/size]
[size=78%]
[/size]

Formula 2) The Charge on capacitor Q = C* V_source*[1-Exponential(-t/RC)]

This is again great secret for those who can see. Notice how the charge (ie. the energy) overtime is defined in relation only the voltage of the source , R , and C . No mention of current here because it doesn't affect the charge on the cap. Only voltage does. You don't believe it ? look again at the formula. The overunity secret is right there.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: forest on December 19, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
The overunity secret is magnetic field
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 19, 2017, 01:12:07 PM
I have tamed the static.

Some of it anyway.   8)

Nice
So the ball rides the cone of the cup like a belt-transmission?
Larger radius = higher up the cup it goes?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 19, 2017, 01:39:09 PM
You are right if you are talking about a closed circuit. The total energy should be from the source if the environment factor remains normal.

The environmental factor (in most conditions) is relatively infinite.
We live in a sea of electrons and positrons
Even the parts of the machines themselves become entangled in the process.

If you wanted to get technical, the ‘source’ is the environment
The static machine simply provides a mechanism for transfer.
99% of the energy we use to initiate the charge differential
Can be attributed to friction. And has nothing to do with the process.
If a good insulator is used, there is no “cling”, and the action of separation
Has no opposing force.

In a rotary machine, rotational momentum dominates.
The faster the rotation, the higher the voltage
But the flywheels are easier to turn in this condition.

Our modern generators become harder to turn at full production
This is because our brute force methodology holds one half still while
forcing the other like a pump.

I think in order to reduce the greater part of our energy losses
(the portion of energy that is lost to heat and magnetism in our devices)
We need to create technology that uses both electrical forces.

The field equations are exactly the same, you simply change the sign of the charges.

Consider the dual-plate condenser, and notice how the secondary plates were connected
they form an independent circuit, each side has the opposite charge of each jar
And a transitional current develops to keep the charges balanced to a ‘middle voltage’
if we think of this now as our “ground”, we can begin to think about the type of technology
we should be designing. (butterfly/leaf/mirror image?)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 19, 2017, 09:31:17 PM
Would be nice if it so easy, but u are wrong.

Formula 4) The time taken to fully charge a cap from a voltage source is 5*R*C

Yes, formula is true but in your schematics R is very low like a short circuit. So I=U/R, that means a huge amount of current.....
That's Ok it means it charges faster. Then once the Cap is charged it acts like an open circuit to DC. You HV module shouldn't have a short circuit breaker.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 19, 2017, 10:29:55 PM

The charge TIME is to be consider for the power transfer..  Look at scopes shot of a disruptive high voltage trough a spark gap and the RAISING TIME occupy most of the screen..  The relation between the L1 and L2 is directly related to raise and surge of L1 because L2 has it`s capacitance and is acting 180 degree trough the curent cycle... This will give the L2 a more sinusoidal wave given a full amplitude.

You lower the charge time by increasing the voltage (even way beyond the rating of the cap) and reducing the R. this means you have to pick low ESR cap. I won't go into the formulas and calculations to prove it but you can test and see.

You will probably ask how come I raise voltage way beyond the rating of my cap ? won't that bend the plates of the cap and it fries and becomes a deadshort ?! well No as long as you are discharging it as soon as it fills up. That's what the spark gap does.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 20, 2017, 12:10:06 AM
You lower the charge time by increasing the voltage (even way beyond the rating of the cap) and reducing the R. this means you have to pick low ESR cap. I won't go into the formulas and calculations to prove it but you can test and see.

Hi Tejerek. Again, lowering the charge time will not in any way bypass the energy consumption
from the input power source required to charge up a given capacitor to a given voltage. This has
already been pointed out to you. ;)

Rather than suggesting other people test your false assumptions for you, why not do some
basic testing with capacitors yourself and you should quickly see where you are going wrong in your assumptions.
It will not work as you say. This thread should more appropriately be called 'The secret to self-deception'.
Sorry, but for someone to claim to know how to achieve OU when they obviously haven't even done the most basic
testing of their assumptions is silly.

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: citfta on December 20, 2017, 12:31:41 AM
You lower the charge time by increasing the voltage (even way beyond the rating of the cap) and reducing the R. this means you have to pick low ESR cap. I won't go into the formulas and calculations to prove it but you can test and see.

You will probably ask how come I raise voltage way beyond the rating of my cap ? won't that bend the plates of the cap and it fries and becomes a deadshort ?! well No as long as you are discharging it as soon as it fills up. That's what the spark gap does.

Applying too high of a voltage to a cap will NOT bend the plates.  What is does is punch a hole in the dielectric and short out the cap.  If the current is high enough it can cause the dielectric to burst into flames and make the cap explode with a very loud bang.  And the voltage applied can damage the cap before it fills up.   As has already been pointed out to you at least a couple of times you really need to do some basic research before you start expounding theories about OU.  Then you would realize that you don't really understand the formulas.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on December 20, 2017, 01:58:16 AM
Applying too high of a voltage to a cap will NOT bend the plates.  What is does is punch a hole in the dielectric and short out the cap.  If the current is high enough it can cause the dielectric to burst into flames and make the cap explode with a very loud bang.  And the voltage applied can damage the cap before it fills up.   As has already been pointed out to you at least a couple of times you really need to do some basic research before you start expounding theories about OU.  Then you would realize that you don't really understand the formulas.
Ok your a skeptic  who only belies what an expert official tells you right! (that's what you have just told me above well what if i charge up a 100uf  450v valve amp smoothing cap and throw it to you to catch, (shock horror) ever get some one do just that when you were a kid (apprentice) , ? no well what if i dump the energy across a Tesla coil primary ? what would it do if i put your phone in the middle of the coil ? perhaps you could explain whats just happened to the phone ?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 20, 2017, 02:47:55 AM
Applying too high of a voltage to a cap will NOT bend the plates.  What is does is punch a hole in the dielectric and short out the cap.  If the current is high enough it can cause the dielectric to burst into flames and make the cap explode with a very loud bang.  And the voltage applied can damage the cap before it fills up.   As has already been pointed out to you at least a couple of times you really need to do some basic research before you start expounding theories about OU.  Then you would realize that you don't really understand the formulas.

A spark gap is a voltage controller
It doesn’t matter what your source voltage is

Once the cap reaches the break-down voltage of the gap
It will dump

I can connect a 1Mv machine to a 100v cap
With a small spark gap, the cap will never over voltage

There is no measurable current from a 1Mv static machine
It discharges instantaneously through any insulator or conductor
(well, almost any)
But it will fill a large condenser almost fast as the discharge

It happens way too fast to measure the current,
And if you did manage to get a numerical value
The time-reference divides it back to 0
Because it all took place in a tiny fraction of a second.

I’ve tried making stupid 5-gallon buckets, and 50-gallon
plastic water drums
You’re more likely to kill yourself with stuff like that
Than you are to actually hold over 1Mv in its place.
It’s better just to use it straight off the machine like
Tesla did, to make 10-15 foot lightning
Or excite atoms, like a gas lamp tube, or an ionic reaction.

If you want to convert the energy into our modern electricity
(you are throwing half of it away, but for the humor)
You should use a cap with a much smaller voltage than
Control it with the frequency

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 20, 2017, 02:53:44 AM
Ok your a skeptic  who only belies what an expert official tells you right!

From what I have seen Citfta is not at all that kind of 'skeptic' (a debunker). :) He does his own
OU experimenting from what I understand. I think his view is probably similar to mine. Open minded
about OU research, but understands well that you have to put things to proper testing before you can
attempt to draw any meaningful conclusions.

There is a huge difference between debunkers who dismiss everything related to OU out of hand,
and healthy skepticism where one neither dismisses nor believes unless something can be proven
by proper bench testing. IMO, the OU research area needs much more healthy skepticism and a lot less people
just making claims without being able to demonstrate anything to support what they are saying. ;)
There is just way too much silliness going around in these forums and on Youtube, etc. :)
No wonder many people assume that only gullible or deluded people or frauds are involved in the search for COP > 1.  ;D

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: citfta on December 20, 2017, 03:13:36 AM
AG,

My post was based on over 50 years of experience with caps.  I retired from a career of working in electronics.  There are no "plates" in a normal capacitor.  There are layers of foil wrapped around each other with the dielectric material in between.  When I was a kid my dad had a TV repair shop.  He would let us have the bad condensers as they were called then.  They were coated in wax.  We peeled that wax off and unrolled the foil across the yard.  So I know first hand what they are.  And the rest of your post doesn't appear to have anything to do with what I posted.

Smokey2,

You can't have it both ways.  You're claiming the spark gap will limit the voltage and I agree.  But Tajarek is claiming he can go over voltage to charge the cap faster.  You can't go over voltage if the spark gap is limiting the voltage.  So I still maintain that you will blow some caps and possibly be injured if you insist on trying to charge them with over voltage.  I have seen what they do when they explode.

And the comments about me from Void are entirely correct.  I am actively searching for OU because I have seen enough to convince me it may very well be possible.  But I also try to correct mistaken ideas when I see them.  I don't want people wasting their time on false ideas.  Now if a person is doing research and experimenting to try and learn that is a great thing to do.  But when a person claims to have solved OU and they haven't even built anything yet to demonstrate their claims then I am very skeptical.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 20, 2017, 03:20:08 AM
An inductor is the closest thing we have to using all of our energy

During the time that our electric field is converted into magnetism.

Both halves of the field participate in this action

You want an “over unity” device?
Go to a junkyard and ask the old man to show you his 250v /50amp
Electromagnet

Then ask him to lift 13000 Joules worth of truck
Using 10000 Joules of electricity.

Then ask him to drop it,

Now you have witnessed 26000 Joules of energy
16000 of them were “free”.

Energy is not imprisoned
It is our minds that need to be freed
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 20, 2017, 04:27:45 AM
Let me do some calculation on this circuit.
V <> 0
I = 0
P = V*I = V*0 = 0
Conclusion: There should not be any energy output at all. My high school teacher would be very happy to see my answer.

I have tamed the static.

Some of it anyway.   8)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 20, 2017, 05:58:41 AM
1+(-1)= (sqrt)-1^2
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 20, 2017, 06:02:00 AM
We have both a positive and negative current

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 20, 2017, 06:07:58 AM
After the electron meets the positron,
The voltage And amperage =0
Because 100% of their energy exploded into the environment

13.6eV + (-13.6eV) = sqrt(-184.96)

Using the height of the ball in the video
And it’s angular velocity
we could determine the electron and positron
output of the (I’m sorry is that a rubber band?)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 20, 2017, 06:35:09 AM
18.2(X10^-31)x(300(x10^6)^2x1.6(x10^-19) =5.1^5Coulombs

That is what is released in the collision

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: forest on December 20, 2017, 09:01:08 AM
STOP
unless you want another thread with 10000 posts !

All you want to do is use your capacitor to produce magnetic field.
This is the begin of journey
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on December 20, 2017, 09:12:20 AM
AG,

My post was based on over 50 years of experience with caps.  I retired from a career of working in electronics.  There are no "plates" in a normal capacitor.  There are layers of foil wrapped around each other with the dielectric material in between.  When I was a kid my dad had a TV repair shop.  He would let us have the bad condensers as they were called then.  They were coated in wax.  We peeled that wax off and unrolled the foil across the yard.  So I know first hand what they are.  And the rest of your post doesn't appear to have anything to do with what I posted.

Smokey2,

You can't have it both ways.  You're claiming the spark gap will limit the voltage and I agree.  But Tajarek is claiming he can go over voltage to charge the cap faster.  You can't go over voltage if the spark gap is limiting the voltage.  So I still maintain that you will blow some caps and possibly be injured if you insist on trying to charge them with over voltage.  I have seen what they do when they explode.

And the comments about me from Void are entirely correct.  I am actively searching for OU because I have seen enough to convince me it may very well be possible.  But I also try to correct mistaken ideas when I see them.  I don't want people wasting their time on false ideas.  Now if a person is doing research and experimenting to try and learn that is a great thing to do.  But when a person claims to have solved OU and they haven't even built anything yet to demonstrate their claims then I am very skeptical.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Wax capacitors  sure Ive seen them when a kid and the older folk use to slung them out the old radio that looked like church doors from the 20s  ;D or an old Phillco  radio from the 50s but lets get more up to date on the plates thing they are used in led acid battery's, E V Gray used his spark tube to regulate and dissipate surplus energy while charging a battery by boiling a small section of acid known as de-sulphating at the same time a capacitor is i different kettle of fish oil  ;D but where is the formula for this kind of work (out of the window). All this Tesla stuff was around  in the 1920s none of it is new just different materials. But what is so called free in the free energy malarkey you asked and i say to you look at the Townsend electron avalanche principle it's a fact you will be luck to find any formula for or teachings on yet exists, even if some like to get up set over on these pages or threads, and they do  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

As a youth I can remember asking a college lecturer about Tesla work his reply was it's more than my jobs worth to devote time on that kind of material with a huge grin on his face!

Allen
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 20, 2017, 12:23:35 PM
This one is another example of laughing stock which could illustrate the point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell)

This bell has been ringing for more than a century. Based on the ball movement, the power output should be around 0.2mW. To make things simple, I am not going to consider the power of ringing sounds and the heat as a result of collision.

The voltage column of the drypile is about 1200volts. This yields a current of 0.16 microamp. I seriously doubt if it has any measurable current at all.

However, the ball moves more violently when the humidity is low. Lower humidity means higher resistance, which in turns is equivalent to a lower current. Lower current means lower power output. This power output probably has little to do with the dynamic of the ball movement.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on December 20, 2017, 01:22:51 PM
This one is another example of laughing stock which could illustrate the point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell)

was it worth the floor space, seen it before thought it was a wast of space then.

Allen
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 21, 2017, 02:58:52 PM
rolled condensers are the same as a flat plate.
(when using them for their capacitance factor)

Anything other than parallel, includes angular equations.

Within the pi function:
Starting from the center, induction decreases with increasing radius.
They are truncated at some outer radius where the changes in induction
respective to each next outer wrapping become negligible, and it is sealed off.

We also have the convenience of a large surface area packed into a small space.

For the purposes of discussion, there is no real difference between the forms.
Just trivial changes to the formula to maintain perspective accuracy.

The difference comes into play when we use the inductive relationship to charge
one of the plates for free, by charging only one plate. (Or layer)

Remember, that each layer is still the same plate.
If we ignore the angular inductive aspect of it being rolled
It is the same as if we placed two parallel plates of equal area
the same distance apart.

We can engineer capacitors and condensers of infinite shape and design
That perform exactly the same. (under most conditions)

Where their differences come into play is in the changes to the induced charge.

There’s only one important question to ask yourselves.

What is the current of charge induction?
i.e.: when we charge a plate (or later) how much “current” moves to induce
an equal and opposite charge on the other plate (or layer)?
[ignore the modern technique of grounding the opposite plate]

And how does this numerical value apply to the “current” drawn from discharging
the capacitor/condenser?

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 21, 2017, 09:27:49 PM

There’s only one important question to ask yourselves.

What is the current of charge induction?
i.e.: when we charge a plate (or later) how much “current” moves to induce
an equal and opposite charge on the other plate (or layer)?
[ignore the modern technique of grounding the opposite plate]

And how does this numerical value apply to the “current” drawn from discharging
the capacitor/condenser?

charging current across a capacitor is  I=V/R * Exponential (-t/RC)
It is ONLY the combined resistance of the circuit that consumes current, which is equivalent to R+ESR . The cap itself needs only voltage to charge.
In practice you cannot really remove resistance but you can lower it to a very small value where virtually just high voltage with very small current is able to charge up the cap.
The charge on the cap is Q=C*V

some people argue that cap takes long time to charge , that's probably because some caps have bleeding resistor (such as microwave oven caps) or high ESR. That resistive part is the one that slows the charging and consumes power P=I*V. not the charging of cap.

Those who argue should really know the science and understand the formulas otherwise y'all be shooting darts in the dark with only 'practice' wishing for overunity because there are infinite ways to experiment.  And if by any luck you get it you won't be able to reproduce it, prove it, or explain it.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 21, 2017, 10:00:10 PM
There is a huge difference between debunkers who dismiss everything related to OU out of hand,
and healthy skepticism where one neither dismisses nor believes unless something can be proven
by proper bench testing. IMO, the OU research area needs much more healthy skepticism and a lot less people
just making claims without being able to demonstrate anything to support what they are saying.

I don't need to prove textbook formulas. Unfortunately many people want to debunk known textbook formulas as wrong and their lab tests as more correct. it is astonishing to me how people see the formula that says charge on a capacitor Q=CV and still want to convince me that it depends on current.
with that being said, I have tested what I am saying and confirmed it. But I thought sharing the basic formulas is more valuable than showing a working OU that no one knows how it work and why. Understanding the theory of OU can make 1000 experimenters come up with their own applications of it with their own OU devices.

EV gray, Don Smith, Kapanadze...etc showed OU working devices but people can't replicate them. Why? because no one know HOW they work and what's the theory behind . I just revealed the theory and it is up to anyone who wants to apply it or not.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 21, 2017, 10:04:14 PM

charging current across a capacitor is  I=V/R * Exponential (-t/RC)
It is ONLY the combined resistance of the circuit that consumes current, which is equivalent to R+ESR . The cap itself needs only voltage to charge.
In practice you cannot really remove resistance but you can lower it to a very small value where virtually just high voltage with very small current is able to charge up the cap.
The charge on the cap is Q=C*V

some people argue that cap takes long time to charge , that's probably because some caps have bleeding resistor (such as microwave oven caps) or high ESR. That resistive part is the one that slows the charging and consumes power P=I*V. not the charging of cap.

Those who argue should really know the science and understand the formulas otherwise y'all be shooting darts in the dark with only 'practice' wishing for overunity because there are infinite ways to experiment.  And if by any luck you get it you won't be able to reproduce it, prove it, or explain it.

That can be observed with a simple joule thief loading a cap and discharging it manually...  As the voltage raise in the cap, the joule thief raise in frequency due to the LESS RESISTIVE CHARGE of the cap..  Good point Tajarek
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 12:39:23 AM
I don't need to prove textbook formulas. Unfortunately many people want to debunk known textbook formulas as wrong and their lab tests as more correct.
it is astonishing to me how people see the formula that says charge on a capacitor Q=CV and still want to convince me that it depends on current.

Hi Tajerek. It has already been pointed out to you that you are making major mistakes in
your assumptions and interpretations. The total charge on a capacitor at a given point in time
is equal to C x V, yes, but that in no way means or implies that to build up that charge on
the capacitor that no current has to flow. :) You are showing that you have no understanding
of what the formulas represent.

with that being said, I have tested what I am saying and confirmed it.

There is no possible way that you have tested this, because if you did do some actual testing
you would quickly realize that what you have been saying here is false. :) To charge a capacitor
requires a flow of current (flow of charges). The formula which you yourself have posted for the capacitor
charge current clearly shows that the higher the applied voltage, the higher the initial capacitor charging current will be.

For you to keep saying that when you apply a high voltage to the capacitor there will be little or no capacitor
charge current is not only obviously completely at odds with the formula which you posted, but it shows that
you have not even the most basic understanding of simple electric circuits and how capacitors work. If you did,
you would not be making such obvious errors.

I won't waste further time on this, as anyone with even just a very basic understanding of capacitors will be
able to see that what you are saying makes no sense.

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 22, 2017, 01:00:45 AM
Hi Tajerek. It has already been pointed out to you that you are making major mistakes in
your assumptions and interpretations. The total charge on a capacitor at a given point in time
is equal to C x V, yes, but that in no way means or implies that to build up that charge on
the capacitor that no current has to flow. :) You are showing that you have no understanding
of what the formulas represent.

There is no possible way that you have tested this, because if you did do some actual testing
you would quickly realize that what you have been saying here is false. :) To charge a capacitor
requires a flow of current (flow of charges). The formula which you yourself have posted for the capacitor
charge current clearly shows that the higher the applied voltage, the higher the capacitor charging current will be.

For you to keep saying that when you apply a high voltage to the capacitor there will be little or no capacitor
charge current is not only obviously completely at odds with the formula which you posted, but it shows that
you have not even the most basic understanding of simple electric circuits and how capacitors work. If you did,
you would not be making such obvious errors.

I won't waste further time on this, as anyone with even just a very basic understanding of capacitors will be
able to see that what you are saying makes no sense.

All the best...

B.S.

To charge a capacitor you need only to apply Voltage to
One plate. (Or layer)

Potential.

Understand “what” a capacitor is.

Any two conductors are a capacitor. Even when one of those is only the air.

The device we label a capacitor, is an advanced form capable of holding
separated charges very well.
But by the technical definition, my metal desk is a capacitor.

(and I can discharge it through an inductor to prove this)

A hunk of metal, is a capacitor.

Two hunks of metal, separated by an insulator, is an even better capacitor.

(air can also act as the insulator if a more conductive plate is substituted)
(two air-conductors can act as plates, if a more insulative substance is substituted)

The ability to hold a charge is the ONLY real requirement.

A single electron, and single positron, can form a capacitor.
and comes pre-charged
(this will disintegrate upon discharge, so is ‘temporary)

Rub your socked feet across the carpet, YOU are a capacitor.
Have a girl in glass slippers rub her feet across the same carpet
Now the both of you make an even Better capacitor.
Form a circuit between you to discharge it.
(sometimes experience is the best teacher)

Charge only wants to distribute uniformly across a conductor.

Yes, you can translate this motion of charge distribution into “current”
using various formulas, but the time-factor makes this an infinitesimal value.

——————————————-

if you charge Both plates of a capacitor, you are essentially forcing current into it.
And in this manner, yes there is a measurable current.
It is synonymous to the Carnot cycle.
You are wasting 50% of your charge.

Allow the second plate to charge inductively, requires only half of the potential.
And you can measure this if you refrain from grounding half of your charge.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 01:32:40 AM
To charge a capacitor you need only to apply Voltage to
One plate. (Or layer)

Good grief. Is it a full moon? ;)

Whether you a putting a 'charge' on a single piece of metal or on a two plate capacitor,
you must either remove charge or push more charge onto the metal. The movement of charge
is current.  At any rate, Tajerek was obviously not talking about putting a charge on a single piece of metal.
His diagram shows charging a two plate capacitor, and my comments were in response to what
Tajerek has been (falsely) saying here.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 22, 2017, 01:53:58 AM

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Posts: 1692

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« Reply #18732 on: December 18, 2017, 12:14:56 AM »
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Hi peper10, the problem is not at all that you were sharing some ideas, but the problem is that you are making claims and getting upset because people were asking for some clarification and that sort of thing, and insisting that you know much more than people here even though it seems you haven't even put these things to the actual test.

You see VOID!   Instead of finding trouble with everyone theory, why don`t you try to experiment and come back with SOLID proof that he is wrong????  That`s what I find funny with this forum...   COUNTER CLAIMS are not validated but we are supposed to go with it..    That is a crazy world...[/li]
[/list]
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 02:10:23 AM
...
You see VOID!   Instead of finding trouble with everyone theory, why don`t you try to experiment and come back with SOLID proof that he is wrong????  That`s what I find funny with this forum...   COUNTER CLAIMS are not validated but we are supposed to go with it..    That is a crazy world...[/li]
[/list]

:o
Good grief again... ;D

I know it probably won't do any good to point out to you that I am not the one
claiming to know the 'secret' to getting OU. ;) Pointing out that someone is making
obviously false statements does not need to be proven, because this should already be
obvious when looking at the formula for capacitor charge current which Tajerek posted.
That is very basic stuff.

The last full moon was apparently Dec 3, so that is not it... ;D

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 22, 2017, 03:39:32 AM

:o
Good grief again... ;D

I know it probably won't do any good to point out to you that I am not the one
claiming to know the 'secret' to getting OU. ;) Pointing out that someone is making
obviously false statements does not need to be proven, because this should already be
obvious when looking at the formula for capacitor charge current which Tajerek posted.
That is very basic stuff.

The last full moon was apparently Dec 3, so that is not it... ;D

I just repeat what you have said to me{ Claim without testing is waisting time}...  If it`s good for you to tell any person that same phrase, it`s good resonning to serve you the same treatment...  [/color][/font][/size] 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
[/color][/font][/size]

On other note, I see perfectly where Tajarek is heading and I`m sure he will get good results...[/color][/font][/size]
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 04:28:48 AM
I just repeat what you have said to me{ Claim without testing is waisting time}...  If it`s good for you to tell any person that same phrase, it`s good resonning to serve you the same treatment...   8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

On other note, I see perfectly where Tajarek is heading and I`m sure he will get good results...

Hi peper10.  As I have pointed out, what is being discussed is not anything
complicated or mysterious in any way. It is very, very basic stuff. To anyone with
even just a very basic understanding of electric circuits and capacitors and that sort of
thing, it will be completely obvious that what Tajerek has been saying is false. That being the case,
how do you think it looks for you to jump into this thread and support what Tajerek is saying? ;)

The question is peper, are you deliberately trying to mislead people with this nonsense of yours,
or are you truly unable to understand anything that has been said here? Same question goes to Tajerek...

What Tajerek has said here is pretty much equivalent to someone saying 2 + 2 = 7.5,
and then saying just look at the 'theorems' for addition to see it is true, when in reality it is
plainly false, and can be very easily proven to be false as well by just simply trying it.
Take two marbles and add two more marbles to it and you will have four marbles. ;D
Tajerek's whole 'premise' is really that absurd, and equally obviously false.

Peper, please stop with the mindless trolling. Just because you have no understanding of
what is being said and do not care what is actually true or not true, it doesn't mean that
other people do not understand what is being said here. I do not like to see people being mislead.
However, I am running a series of experiments and I don't really have time to answer completely

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 22, 2017, 05:15:18 AM

Hi peper10.  As I have pointed out, what is being discussed is not anything
complicated or mysterious in any way. It is very, very basic stuff. To anyone with
even just a very basic understanding of electric circuits and capacitors and that sort of
thing, it will be completely obvious that what Tajerek has been saying is false. That being the case,
how do you think it looks for you to jump into this thread and support what Tajerek is saying? ;)

The question is peper, are you deliberately trying to mislead people with this nonsense of yours,
or are you truly unable to understand anything that has been said here? Same question goes to Tajerek...

What Tajerek has said here is pretty much equivalent to someone saying 2 + 2 = 7.5,
and then saying just look at the 'theorems' for addition to see it is true, when in reality it is
plainly false, and can be very easily proven to be false as well by just simply trying it.
Take two marbles and add two more marbles to it and you will have four marbles. ;D
Tajerek's whole 'premise' is really that absurd, and equally obviously false.

Peper, please stop with the mindless trolling. Just because you have no understanding of
what is being said and do not care what is actually true or not true, it doesn't mean that
other people do not understand what is being said here. I do not like to see people being mislead.
However, I am running a series of experiments and I don't really have time to answer completely

You live in your INFLATED BUBBLE my friend :o :o   I dont see any experiment or validation to your ANTI-THEORY but MARBLES COMPARASION...  God grief!!!  And you are claiming you have tons of  experience with the subject?????  That look more silly than anything....   I served you the EXACT claim you are presenting with others when you are not satisfied with what they say....
Put aside your bedside lecture for a minute and look more into Tajarek explanation...    ENERGY is the sum of two things, but, one value can be more that the other with the same end results...   If I have a 1 000 000 volt capacitor with 20pf capacity, will it have the same power of a 400 volt 400mf?????? Get over it and present something with more CONSISTANCE PLEASE...

Have a wonderful day ;D ;D
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 05:27:50 AM
:o

There is little hope for this world...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 22, 2017, 05:31:25 AM

:o

There is little hope for this world...

And you might be the cause... ;D
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 22, 2017, 08:57:55 AM
For those who want to claim overunity on something, I suggest they first prove by experiment that their system can perpetually run or self-run.

Proving that the output is greater than the input is not enough. Measurement errors always exist.

We have already seen many discussion threads on overunity spark gaps, overunity capacitors, overunity inductors, OU resistors, 100kW systems, 5MW systems, etc, etc.

I am not ruling out the possibility that self-running systems exist.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2017, 12:15:20 PM
Lots of Zeal here

is there a suggested experiment to support a claim?
seems quite simple ??
apologies if it has been mentioned

respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on December 22, 2017, 12:28:43 PM
I am waiting for some high Farad caps to test these claims. Also I need some balls to start playing with high voltage, that I have not done before. Bare feet on concrete like Geo does?

I am sure there are people with suitable gear already, but I don't blame then if they do not want to waste time on this. My intuition tells me that OU is simple and beautiful. If somebody tells me putting a banana near a magnet gives OU I will try it out. Somehow the Egyptians moved stones that we cannot still move today, so they had something we don't. They might have had a totally different approach to electricity and maybe even gravity, but then the hordes came with their "one god" and burned all libraries to the ground. I think we lost thousands of years of progress and scientific knowledge.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2017, 12:52:55 PM
well
maybe we could do two things at once

been wanting to talk to Smokey about this anyway, and I know plenty are interested here and elsewhere.

Graphene

the beauty of this
we can make our own supercaps ,on the kitchen table...and now it seems we can make our own batteries too [in the kitchen or anywhere] ?
on a par with Lithium and with NONE of the environmental or gov't regulation issues.

Robert Murray Smith has done some really nice work in this area

and there are other things which may be good to look at with Graphene

Maybe Mags can start a thread in the moderated section since one of the things to do with graphene involves resonance and ambient harvesting it is an unproven Claim [fuzzy bench lore aside]

seems the Vendors [Graphene suppliers] have caught up with what we need to play here

Graphene ...a fellow use to need an electron scope to play or experiment
Now they [Vendors] can get us one layer oriented samples to play with

that is very important to see results ...ambient harvesting results ...or so I've been told

we have the talent ,we have the materials....

and most of all...the desire to make this world all that it "should" be.

respectfully
Chet K

PS
the good news
Open source of course...

but we would have to do this in a moderated thread ,or section here.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on December 22, 2017, 01:02:56 PM
well
maybe we could do two things at once

been wanting to talk to Smokey about this anyway, and I know plenty are interested here and elsewhere.

Graphene

the beauty of this
we can make our own supercaps ,on the kitchen table...and now it seems we can make our own batteries too [in the kitchen or anywhere] ?
on a par with Lithium and with NONE of the environmental or gov't regulation issues.

Robert Murray Smith has done some really nice work in this area

and there are other things which may be good to look at with Graphene

Maybe Mags can start a thread in the moderated section since one of the things to do with graphene involves resonance and ambient harvesting it is an unproven Claim [fuzzy bench lore aside]

seems the Vendors [Graphene suppliers] have caught up with what we need to play here

Graphene ...a fellow use to need an electron scope to play or experiment
Now they [Vendors] can get us one layer oriented samples to play with

that is very important to see results ...ambient harvesting results ...or so I've been told

we have the talent ,we have the materials....

and most of all...the desire to make this world all that it "should" be.

respectfully
Chet K

PS
the good news
Open source of course...

but we would have to do this in a moderated thread ,or section here.

I follow Robert on Youtube. He is trying to make a 3 million Farad cap to power a home :)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2017, 01:22:39 PM
yes
and he will [or you will  8)

if we keep the discussions respectful and neat ,we could probably get RMS to contribute here

what a wonderful time to be alive on planet earth ....lets try to keep it that way.

respectfully

Chet K
Ps
for clarity
the ambient harvesting part of this ,has nothing to do with RMS's work.

Hmm
well I see we are in aq moderated section
but not a formal build thread ...Yet

here is some info from T1000 ,which is probably good to grasp [generic info not specific to any claim]
https://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wposion.html

also will be looking at another Ambient claim but I must ask the claimants permission first
even tho it has never been replicated by anyone I associate with.
its just a respect thing.
and I will ask him if he wishes to contribute here too ? [in a moderated Build thread]

and advancements in the Graphene vendor supply chain are making it possible to experiment there.

for clarity we never could experiment with certainty in these microscopic nano tech areas
now it seems the vendors have caught up
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 22, 2017, 02:18:47 PM
@Chet

It’s much easier to obtain/produce graphite
Cheaper too. They do pretty much the same thing.
The advantages that come from graphene are tiny.
The real advantage is economic profitability.
That’s why research gets funding in this area.

Graphite batteries,capacitors, inductors, semiconductors,peltier’s etc.
perform almost as well in any situation we would use them for.

There are self-organizing carbon structures that out perform
graphene, but are increasingly more difficult to create.

We ‘can’ make graphene in the kitchen, as I and others have shown
But my experience tells me it’s not worth the investment.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 22, 2017, 02:36:16 PM
To Void:

Your difference in opinion sounds like it is derived from the
difference between the technician point of view and the engineer
viewpoint.

I’ll try to explain:

A technician will tell you that to charge a capacitor, you must do it
through a load. Such as a resistor or a lightbulb, etc.
As this applies to the application (in our modern circuitry)

An Engineer will tell you that a capacitor charges inductively.
A charge on one plate induces an equal and opposite charge on
the other plate.
As this pertains to the science.

Both statements are true, and in fact both occur in modern circuitry.
Simultaneously

However, the prior is not inherent of capacitors, only of our circuits.

Capacitor science is derived from condenser study.

Capacitor technical data is derived from modern application.
(done almost 2 centuries later)

What you are claiming to be “false” only applies to the modern application.
We can also charge a capacitor inductively by applying a potential to one
plate.
The other will induce an equal and opposite charge
as a function of the distance between them and change in voltage.

Charging a capacitor without a load has no measurable current.
it is so small it can only be calculated,
You can scope it with an adequately high-frequency oscilloscope.
and we see a sharp spike at the front, and a decrease in current
inversely proportionate to the voltage.
Current at 0 charge is ‘infinite’, current at max charge is 0.
Internal resistance to a single capacitor plate increases with charge.

The large spike (across a the charging time) of current is overwhelmed
by the increasingly low current as it approaches max charge.
This will continue until the potential between the charged plate and the
induced plate equals the potential between the source and our reference.
Resulting in almost no current at all.
Current is a function of time.
The time is so short it destroys the equation.
It is approximately 0 current.

Hope this helps you understand.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: ramset on December 22, 2017, 02:53:44 PM
Smokey
as usual I did not explain myself well
its in my head but doesn't always make it to the paper
::)

no I was referring to Roberts path, sourcing already made products from vendors

However
I know others are making it and experimenting with solutions and materials [Mwah]
and its nice to show the really young members of the planet [Children]
what they can do with their own hands[under supervision of course]

to make a change in the world , IMO too much button pressing and not enuff dirty hands
with the Children.

and for Clarity the energy density claimed by Robert is on a par or better than Li

we hope to qualify that claim independently here.

ps
gotta log out [storm heading this way

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 06:09:18 PM
For those who want to claim overunity on something, I suggest they first prove by experiment that their system can perpetually run or self-run.
Proving that the output is greater than the input is not enough. Measurement errors always exist.
We have already seen many discussion threads on overunity spark gaps, overunity capacitors, overunity inductors, OU resistors, 100kW systems, 5MW systems, etc, etc.
I am not ruling out the possibility that self-running systems exist.

Hi blueplanet. Yes, being able to demonstrate a self-sustaining setup is pretty much the
benchmark for OU claims now, given all the many false claims and setups showing
very obvious improper measurements over the years. It is easy to make claims, but it is
a whole different kettle of fish to be able to back up those claims with a self-sustaining setup.
This quickly separates the real from the fantasy. :)

P.S. If someone can show that they get a very much larger output power than input power
then that is not anything to sneeze at, but the next logical step would be to try to loop it and
make it self-sustaining if possible, as a truly self-sustaining setup is something that is pretty
hard to argue against, outside of the possibility of plain fraud.

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 22, 2017, 08:31:53 PM
Hi sm0ky2. I have already explained to you that my comments were to Tajerek,
and are in response to the specific circuit diagram he posted and the specific comments
he has made here.  I understand well that there is something called electrostatic induction, but
my comments are in direct relation to specific things Tajerek has been saying, not on other
approaches or other possibilities.

I have spent many years doing my own experimenting in this area, and my approach has been to start
with very basic concepts and do various tests so I understand well how things really work, and then
to move step by step into different variations and observe how things really work in those different
variations. After a person has done many hours of experimentation along these lines over many years,
they can often quickly see where people are going wrong who do not actually try things out and who
just make statements based on assumptions and incorrect understanding and that sort of thing.
Again, my comments have been in direct response to specific things that Tajerek was saying here.

The unfortunate reality is there are a lot of very 'mistaken' people (to be kind about it) in the OU research area.
A common pattern you see from these people is they typically just can't back up what they are saying with an actual
sound test setup. They often make excuses why they can't demonstrate anything to back up what they are saying,
or may show some shoddy setup along with improper measurements to try to back up what they are saying, or insist the
problem is with other people for not blindly accepting what they are saying. :)

In reality, the only realistic way to be sure about something related to OU being authentic or not is
to test the heck out of it and to always be on the watch for things that you might have overlooked or
places where you may be making an error or incorrect assumption. If a person doesn't have that mindset when
they are doing OU experimenting then I think they are lost before they have even started. You must be willing to
closely examine and question everything, and be willing to check things over many times to try to find places where you
could have gone wrong, etc. IMO, this is the difference between someone who is truly open to trying to get a real
understanding of things, and someone who is just looking to promote some pet ideas or beliefs they may have
without being willing or capable to do the work to see if there really may be anything to it or not or to accept
feedback on what they are saying or doing as well.

Anyway, enough on this, what I am saying should really be old hat to anyone who has been at this
for any length of time anyway. Newcomers to the topic should consider what I am saying here though
if you want to try to avoid being lead down the garden path and end up wasting a lot of time. :)

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 22, 2017, 11:26:40 PM

We can also charge a capacitor inductively by applying a potential to one
plate.
The other will induce an equal and opposite charge
as a function of the distance between them and change in voltage.

Charging a capacitor without a load has no measurable current.
it is so small it can only be calculated,
You can scope it with an adequately high-frequency oscilloscope.
and we see a sharp spike at the front, and a decrease in current
inversely proportionate to the voltage.
Current at 0 charge is ‘infinite’, current at max charge is 0.
Internal resistance to a single capacitor plate increases with charge.

The large spike (across a the charging time) of current is overwhelmed
by the increasingly low current as it approaches max charge.
This will continue until the potential between the charged plate and the
induced plate equals the potential between the source and our reference.
Resulting in almost no current at all.
Current is a function of time.
The time is so short it destroys the equation.
It is approximately 0 current.

Hope this helps you understand.

That's what I was trying to say. And explained in my previous message with formulas that you need current from the source only in proportion to the circuit resistance. If you remove the resistance component you literally don't need current to charge a cap. It is the voltage pressure across the plates that causes the charges that are already on the plates to be displaced, when the charges are displaced there appears current as a consequence. Current is not the cause of the charging cap but the consequence. The current doesn't come from the source but is created by the cap when it is charging, and the cause is the voltage.
Obviously we cannot have zero resistance that's why small current is still needed, but in theory a perfect cap doesn't need current to charge but only voltage.

As example Take a high voltage cap of 1uF and ESR=0.2 ohm  it will charge up in 5*R*C as known by time constant formulas (this is science not me claiming) . It means you fully charge it up within 1 micro second ! And you charge it up to 63% in 1/5th of a microsecond. The charges are displaced from one plate to the other so fast that you see large spike of current but that's not really drawn from the source but displacement of charges from 1 plate to the other. Again it is the resistive component of your circuit and cap that's consuming current/power.

Now anyone who tells me that cap doesn't charge fully in 5*R*C then they don't know science...

The current across the cap is i=C*dv/dt  That means it is resulting from the rate of voltage change across the capacitor it is not the source current.
I hope this clears the confusion for Void who has wrong assumptions thinking that the current C*dv/dt is required from the source, while as formula clearly says it comes as consequence of the voltage increase across the cap as I just explained :) that is in fact the secret to OU :)

Hi Tajerek. It has already been pointed out to you that you are making major mistakes in
your assumptions and interpretations. The total charge on a capacitor at a given point in time
is equal to C x V, yes, but that in no way means or implies that to build up that charge on
the capacitor that no current has to flow. :) You are showing that you have no understanding
of what the formulas represent.

There is no possible way that you have tested this, because if you did do some actual testing
you would quickly realize that what you have been saying here is false. :) To charge a capacitor
requires a flow of current (flow of charges). The formula which you yourself have posted for the capacitor
charge current clearly shows that the higher the applied voltage, the higher the initial capacitor charging current will be.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 23, 2017, 12:09:42 AM
That's what I was trying to say. And explained in my previous message with formulas that you need current from the source only in proportion to the circuit resistance. If you remove the resistance component you literally don't need current to charge a cap. It is the voltage pressure across the plates that causes the charges that are already on the plates to be displaced, when the charges are displaced there appears current as a consequence. Current is not the cause of the charging cap but the consequence. The current doesn't come from the source but is created by the cap when it is charging, and the cause is the voltage.
Obviously we cannot have zero resistance that's why small current is still needed, but in theory a perfect cap doesn't need current to charge but only voltage.

Hi Tajerek my friend. You keep saying the same thing, but unfortunately you seem to be unwilling
to give due consideration to what people are telling you in response. :) You ignoring where people
are pointing out how you are wrong is not helping your situation at all. :)

Based on your circuit diagram, you appear to be talking about charging a two plate type capacitor
from an rectified DC input voltage source. The applied voltage is the 'pressure' (AKA electromotive force) which
causes the charges to start to move from one cap plate to the other.  This movement of charge from one plate to the
other is a current. Packing electrons into one plate from the other plate takes an expenditure of energy. This power
consumption is represented as the applied voltage times the capacitor current at any given point in time. The formula for capacitor
current which you posted clearly shows that the higher the applied voltage, the higher the initial capacitor charge current
will be for a given circuit. There is simply no denying that. Just look at the capacitor charge current formula.

This capacitor charge current will fall off in an exponential curve which is accounted for in the cap current formula
by the exponential component in the formula. Nothing you have shown or described in your circuit diagram
would seem to do anything to bypass this normal type of capacitor charge behavior. Anyway, you have made it clear
so I'll leave it at that.

In order to have a chance of seeing OU, it would seem a setup would have to be doing something very out of the ordinary.
I see nothing out of the ordinary in your circuit setup, and your basic premise is clearly at odds with the formula
for capacitor charge current. In other words, you are not making sense. :)

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Tajerek on December 23, 2017, 02:56:29 AM
Hi Void , you missed the point you are thinking in the traditional way of conservation of energy which leads to "overunity doesn't exist".
All your assumptions are based on a false premise that "if there's work it means there's equivalent expenditure which it has to come from the source" that negates any chance of believing in OU every existing. I am wondering what you are doing in this OU forum then  ???

I will explain where you make the mistake
The applied voltage is the 'pressure' (AKA electromotive force) which
causes the charges to start to move from one cap plate to the other.  This movement of charge from one plate to the other is a current.
This is correct , I agree with you here. that there is current and I said it serveral times and in my last message. I used the term 'displacement' current. I say it doesn't have to come from the source.

Packing electrons into one plate from the other plate takes an expenditure of energy. This power
consumption is represented as the applied voltage times the capacitor current at any given point in time.
This is a misunderstanding. It applies to resistive loads not capacitors. Capacitors do not perform any work and don't consume power. Do your research. https://www.crazyengineers.com/threads/how-to-calculate-power-in-capacitor.12638/

The formula for capacitor
current which you posted clearly shows that the higher the applied voltage, the higher the initial capacitor charge current
will be for a given circuit. There is simply no denying that. Just look at the capacitor charge current formula.
that formula says i=c dv/dt and it doesn't say the higher the voltage the higher the current  :D it links the current in the cap directly to the rate of change of the voltage of the source. This current is NOT the current of the source like you think it is.
If it was like you think it means the source voltage and the source current will have to be linked by this formula which is absurd. to explain the absurdity i will take example of a linear rising voltage at a rate of Const*t. since we are using very high voltage to Const is very high as voltage will jump from 0 to high value across the cap when it is charged. such as 3000v in 1 sec. Then Const = 3000
take a cap of 5 uF as example.

i=C*dv/dt  = 0.005* d(Const*T)/dt = 15A

This means when you charge a 5uF cap with 3kv it draws 15A. But what if you are using a voltage source of 3kv and 100ma ?? does it make sense that the cap will draw 15A from 100ma source ?? that's absurd.

The real answer is that your source remains 3kv 100ma and STILL you will see the current shooting up to 15A but it is NOT related to that 100ma of the source. That's the secret of excess power i've been trying to explain :)

This capacitor charge current will fall off in an exponential curve which is accounted for in the cap current formula
by the exponential component in the formula. Nothing you have shown or described in your circuit diagram
would seem to do anything to bypass this normal type of capacitor charge behavior.
current will go down exponentially so what? that's not what my circuit is trying to show. my circuit is an illustration that you can draw small power to store high energy into a cap, then covert that electric energy into useful form.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 23, 2017, 04:42:23 AM
I agree.

There have been a lot of real overunity devices around. There have been a lot of great ideas posted on the internet. Unfortunately, these real devices attract no attention. Whenever you disclose a self-running device that has been running for several decades, the ordinary people will look for hidden wires underneath the carpet. The credibility of free energy science has gone down to almost zero.

Instead, the devices which never fail to attract public attention are those overunity spark gaps, 5MW devices, overunity resistor, abnormal supercap, etc, etc. Some individuals are even trying to release disinformation to the public in a way to discredit the science of free energy.   The self-running benchmark will certainly clear a lot of doubts.

Hi blueplanet. Yes, being able to demonstrate a self-sustaining setup is pretty much the
benchmark for OU claims now, given all the many false claims and setups showing
very obvious improper measurements over the years. It is easy to make claims, but it is
a whole different kettle of fish to be able to back up those claims with a self-sustaining setup.
This quickly separates the real from the fantasy. :)

P.S. If someone can show that they get a very much larger output power than input power
then that is not anything to sneeze at, but the next logical step would be to try to loop it and
make it self-sustaining if possible, as a truly self-sustaining setup is something that is pretty
hard to argue against, outside of the possibility of plain fraud.

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 23, 2017, 04:55:12 AM
Hi Void , you missed the point you are thinking in the traditional way of conservation of energy which leads to "overunity doesn't exist".
All your assumptions are based on a false premise that "if there's work it means there's equivalent expenditure which it has to come from the source" that negates any chance of believing in OU every existing. I am wondering what you are doing in this OU forum then  ???

Hi Tajerek. Your statement that I am thinking "overunity doesn't exist" is a complete fabrication on your part.
I have never said anything even remotely like that, and I have pointed out that I have done experimentation
in this area for years. Please do not put words into my mouth that I have clearly never said.

This is a misunderstanding. It applies to resistive loads not capacitors. Capacitors do not perform any work and don't consume power. Do your research.

Good grief man. You are mixing apples and oranges. You posted a link to a capacitor in an AC circuit (sinewave)
which does not consume power, that is correct, but I was clearly talking about the power
consumed from the high voltage DC power source when charging the first capacitor in your circuit
diagram to a DC voltage.  Very obviously I wasn't talking about a capacitor in an AC circuit.
Sorry, but for you to mix up the difference between charging up a capacitor with a DC voltage (which is what
we have been talking about all along based on your circuit diagram) and how a capacitor behaves in an AC circuit
with a sinewave applied to it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

that formula says i=c dv/dt and it doesn't say the higher the voltage the higher the current  :D

The formula I am referring to is the formula for the charge current of a capacitor when a DC voltage source
is applied to it to charge up the capacitor, which you yourself have posted previously:
I = (V/R)  x e^-t/RC
This is the formula for determining the charge current in a capacitor that is being charged with a DC voltage V.
As you can see this formula contains Tau (RC). This is the formula you must use for determining the capacitor charge current
during the 5 Tau charge period when charging from a DC power source V. That you did not realize something this basic again
shows that you do not know what you are talking about.

As you can see from the formula, the lower 'R' is (in your circuit there is no actual R, but there is a diode which
has some losses plus the ESR of the capacitor), the higher the initial charge current will be, and this charge current
will fall exponentially from the maximum as the capacitor charges. So, definitely, the higher the source DC voltage
is, the higher the initial capacitor charge current will be, and it will fall off exponentially from there over the period of 5 x Tau.

By the way, when you are charging a capacitor from a high voltage DC power supply, which usually have
fairly low current capacity, typically what happens is the output voltage of the high voltage DC power supply
drops when it is charging the capacitor due to the high internal resistance of the high voltage power source, so
the actual cap charge current in this situation will be limited by the internal resistance of the power supply. However,
clearly power is consumed from the high voltage DC power supply when charging the capacitor. It doesn't make any difference
what the actual DC supply voltage is, power will still be consumed when charging a capacitor to a DC voltage.
This is very, very basic stuff.

Tajerek, sorry man, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. For absolute certain power is consumed from
the high voltage DC power source when the capacitor is being charged up with this DC voltage applied, regardless of the
applied voltage.  Anyone with even the most basic understanding of capacitors should be aware of this.
Enough with the nonsense already.  :o

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2017, 03:18:17 AM
Void, try charging your capacitor from a high voltage source that is capable
of greatly exceeding the charge current of the equation (max value on the data sheet).

What is the charge time?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 05:05:39 AM
Void, try charging your capacitor from a high voltage source that is capable
of greatly exceeding the charge current of the equation (max value on the data sheet).
What is the charge time?

Hi Sm0ky2. If you have a high voltage DC power source with very high current capability,
and you have very little resistance and component losses, then the capacitor initial charge
current would be very high. To have a high voltage DC power source that can supply that
kind of current would be quite dangerous to work around. I am not interested in trying it. :)

People have used microwave oven transformers as a fairly high voltage power source with
fairly high current capacity, and if you use something like that (careful, it's dangerous) with a suitable
high current rated HV diode to rectify the AC to DC, even a relatively large capacitance HV cap can be charged
to a high voltage very quickly, and the initial capacitor charge current would be relatively pretty high.
Doing this still consumes power from the DC power supply however in proportion to the voltage you are
charging up the capacitor to, regardless of the power supply voltage you are actually using.

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 24, 2017, 05:26:47 AM
F.Y.I.

Vyacheslav Gorchilin shows [proves] mathematically that excess (free) energy is achievable.
He also presents several methods/techniques and suggests some practical implementation
approaches. Animated Mathcad on-line graphs are made available to aid in the process as well.

His approach to the solution [proof] is rather brilliant IMHO!

From:  http://gorchilin.com/articles/ (http://gorchilin.com/articles/)
(use translation (flag in upper right hand corner) if required - unfortunately Google Translate will not properly
display the formulas, however Yandex - the flags - will work OK)

Energy parametric RLC-circuits

Free energy in a parametric RLC-circuits of the first kind of the second order
http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/RLC_5?lang=en (http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/RLC_5?lang=en)

"In this work we consider the electric circuit containing the nonlinear reactive elements: the
capacitor and inductance. Their nonlinearity is determined by the parametric dependence:
the capacitance — voltage on it, and inductance from the current flowing through it. The
resistance is constant, but even if its value changed, for example, from the time the proof is
not affected . According to the classification here will be considered generators of the first kind
and second order. In real devices the parametric dependence can be only one element
capacitance or inductance, but here we show the General case and prove that these elements
are independent from each other to influence change in the efficiency of the second kind. "

Insights:  " Insights on circuits of the second order similar to those done on the circuits of the
first order. However, repeat them.
In this work we proved that it is impossible to gain energy in parametric circuits of the second
order in the full cycle (FCC) because the energy dissipated in the resistance is always equal to
the energy expended by the power formula (5.8).

But if the cycle is incomplete, the receiving gain becomes achievable task
.

If reactive elements contain potential energy in the beginning of the
cycle (PCCIE), the gain can be found using the formula (5.12). If the energy in the reactive elements
is at the end of the cycle, then the conditions for receiving allowances, we can find from formula (5.14),
and the increment of efficiency by (5.16).

You need to understand that there is a mathematically strictly proved potentially achievable values of
the increment of energy, part of which, in the real reactance, can be spent inefficiently, for example, on
heating. However, on the basis of evidence about the energy increment in the fractional cycles, one
can obtain special cases for engineering calculations, which, in turn, will allow you to build a real device
with high efficiency.
Additional materials and some special cases with examples from real wireless components you can
see here. "

Application to the proof of parametric RLC-circuits of the first kind
http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/RLC_51?lang=en (http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/RLC_51?lang=en)

Parametric inductance in PCCFE

In this case, without knowledge of the schema and according to   of the power source,
the increase in efficiency we can not calculate, but we can search conditions for     from
the formula (4.15). Assume that our coil is described by the parametric dependence of
inductance from its current next next:
{see text for formulas - unfortunately they can not be reproduced here}
For rows with a large value of the degree calculations are either very bulky, or, in principle,
not derived analytically. But for example, it will be enough and second degree.

Reference:
{further background study}

SAINT-PETERSBURG   STATE  INSTITUTE   ACCURATE   MECHANICS   AND   OPTICS
(TECHNICAL   UNIVERSITY)
Department of Electrical Engineering and Precision Electromechanical Systems
Yu.M. Osipov
FREQUENCY   AND   TEMPORAL   ANALYSIS  STATIONARY   AND   TRANSITIONAL
CHARACTERISTICS   LINEAR   ELECTRICAL   CIRCUITS
A manual on electrical engineering and TOE courses
Part two
St. Petersburg  2002

3.3 Transient processes in second-order circuits
http://ets.ifmo.ru/osipov/os1/3_3.htm (http://ets.ifmo.ru/osipov/os1/3_3.htm)

*** Seasons Greetings and best wishes for the New Year ***

FIN
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2017, 06:38:07 AM
Hi Sm0ky2. If you have a high voltage DC power source with very high current capability,
and you have very little resistance and component losses, then the capacitor initial charge
current would be very high. To have a high voltage DC power source that can supply that
kind of current would be quite dangerous to work around. I am not interested in trying it. :)

People have used microwave oven transformers as a fairly high voltage power source with
fairly high current capacity, and if you use something like that (careful, it's dangerous) with a suitable
high current rated HV diode to rectify the AC to DC, even a relatively large capacitance HV cap can be charged
to a high voltage very quickly, and the initial capacitor charge current would be relatively pretty high.
Doing this still consumes power from the DC power supply however in proportion to the voltage you are
charging up the capacitor to, regardless of the power supply voltage you are actually using.

All the best...

Losses are negligible, and at high enough voltages there is no resistance in the circuit
External to the capicitor

The only impedance is then the internal resistance curve of the capacitor that defines charging current

Without adding extraneous components, and making assumptions outside of the situation.

What I am asking is, what is the time-frame over which the charging current exists?
And what portion of this time does the current hold a ‘high-value’?

My HV source provides infinite instantaneous current.
And exists as only potential except the moment charge is drawn from it.
Current, defined in Amperes, is a time-derived quantity.

The magnitude of the time defines the order of magnitude of the current.
Here’s a hint: 1 Amp is 1 coulomb per second.

If the total charge time is 1/82 of a second,
Current is only of appreciable value for 1/6000th of a second
after which internal resistance of the capacitor reaches such high value
that the rest of the charging time, current is calculably minuscule.

So what exactly is the charge current you keep arguing about?
And how does the power rating compare to the output of the capacitor discharge?

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 07:23:43 AM
Hi sm0ky2. The formula for the capacitor charge current makes it quite clear what will happen.
I am not going to keep repeating myself, and this is very basic and well established stuff anyway.  ;)
If you doubt it, you can always experiment and see for yourself how things work.
A very simple setup to see what happens is if you charge one capacitor from another capacitor, whether
at high voltage or not, the source capacitor will lose charge (a loss of energy) to charge the other capacitor.

Be very careful if you mess with high voltages, especially at higher current capacity. Not recommended. It can certainly be lethal.

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 24, 2017, 04:58:14 PM
Quote from: smoky
My HV source provides infinite instantaneous current.

No, it doesn't.

Quote
1+(-1)= (sqrt)-1^2

No, it doesn't.

Quote
13.6eV + (-13.6eV) = sqrt(-184.96)

No, it doesn't.

Quote
18.2(X10^-31)x(300(x10^6)^2x1.6(x10^-19) =5.1^5Coulombs
That is what is released in the collision

:o

Wish I had some of whatever you've been smoking!

Merry Xmas !!

:-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 06:08:54 PM
This thread is a good reminder of why it is so important in the OU research area that people be
able to back up what they are claiming about OU with some sort of proper test setup.
Even then, if a test setup can't be shown to be self-sustaining over a reasonably long enough
period of time, then there is still always good chance for people overlooking important things influencing
the test setup results, or measurement error, etc.

A truly self-sustaining setup that can be shown to be self-sustaining for a reasonably long enough period
of time depending on the exact setup, would much more likely to be showing genuine OU, if it is not just a trick.
The reality is there are no shortage of people out there making all sorts of claims about OU, but much more often
than not it seems they can't back up what they are saying with a proper demonstration in a reasonable sort of way.
It's a sad statement about our world that there are so many 'mistaken' people out there making so many unfounded
claims about all sorts of things, but it is the unfortunate reality of this world it seems.

Season's greetings to all... :)
May you not be led down the garden path even once in the coming new year! :)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 24, 2017, 07:20:06 PM
F.Y.I.

Some additional insight regarding "capacitor behaviour" also may be gathered by studying:

Electrophorus or electrophore: Wikipedia {note: classic books/papers might be a better technical
source - refer to some older posts for some excellent book links} - "a.k.a. capacitive generator."

Discovered/Invented by Johan Carl WILCKE 1762 - Alessandro VOLTA 1775
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus)

Volta Electrophorus - possibly the original "first perpetual (OU?) free energy mechanism!"
[basically - charge it once and, under ideal conditions, the device will retain it's charge while, at the same time,
deliver a sustained output - it will self-replenish it's original charge]

Further concepts are developed here: About the relativity of the potential energy of the capacitor
{all 5 pages plus refernce links]
http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/capacitor?lang=en (http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/capacitor?lang=en)

Note: I add these "F.Y.I." references on occasion when it appears to me that a promising thread reaches, what I will call,
a "Ground Hog Day" moment {I won't elaborate further since we all know what I mean}!
Hopefully, like we do in real life, we will pause and revisit, or renew, or re-think our process and approach.

FIN
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 07:41:38 PM
Hi SloarLab. Although it should already be very clear, nowhere in this thread was anyone
suggesting that OU is definitely not possible, if that is what you are implying, and most
of my comments here were in direct response to specific things Tajerek was claiming, as some
of the things Tajerek was claiming were quite obviously based on misunderstandings of basic principles.

Electrostatic induction was already mentioned as an aside in this thread, but this wasn't what
was being discussed by the original poster. Electrostatic induction is a very interesting effect, and
it potentially holds some possibilities in OU research. It could possibly be the working principle behind
the 'testatika' device for example, if that is a genuine OU device. I have experimented some with
electrostatic induction, but so far wasn't able to produce anything beyond small but still interesting effects.

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 24, 2017, 07:56:46 PM
Hello All and Merry Christmas.

This is an area of research I will be looking at in the New year, when I can reliably obtain the ingredients to make wax Electrets.

I have an idea of a simple attraction motor. Your thoughts on how it might work, if at all, would be appreciated.

A disc of thin Aluminium sheet is covered by a slightly larger diameter of Polycarbonate. The Polycarbonate disc has got slots milled through its thickness. These slots extend from the centre point radially, just the same as the segments of a Wimshurst machine. I cook the wax mixture and pour into the slots cover with foil then pole the assembly with a positive potential applied to the base disc. I make a second one done the same way.

The poling voltage is going to be 20KV DC from an " air purifier/Ozone/Ion " generator module.

I then propose to mate the two discs back to back and provide an axle to be fitted into a pair of bearings mounted in a vertical fashion. The final part is a “ U “ section metal “ attractor “ ?? That goes to a good earth and is placed so that the rotor can run between the faces. Finished!

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 08:13:27 PM
Hi Grum. Not sure exactly what you are describing, but do you mean a type
of electrostatic motor, something like this:

Electrostatic Motor

P.S. I guess you mean an electrostatic motor that has the high static DC voltage
source created using an electret? Very nice idea if you can get the electret to produce
a high static voltage!

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 24, 2017, 08:53:31 PM
Hi Void.

Yes similar. Below is the culmination of a series of tests with a Franklin style machine I built earlier this year.

And yes to your PS. I'm hoping that an Electret, if I can make one that has a static charge of 20 KV per segment will work in attraction mode to a grounded " attractor " pair of plates.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 09:01:39 PM
Hi Void.
Yes similar. Below is the culmination of a series of tests with a Franklin style machine I built earlier this year.

And yes to your PS. I'm hoping that an Electret, if I can make one that has a static charge of 20 KV per segment will work in attraction mode to a grounded " attractor " pair of plates.
Cheers Graham.

Hi Grum. Very cool!

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 24, 2017, 09:14:14 PM
My first venture into electrostatics.

And....

Merry Christmas....
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 24, 2017, 09:56:24 PM
My first venture into electrostatics.
And....
Merry Christmas....

Ha ha. Very nice!

The following video is maybe a bit unrelated, but I thought it was interesting
that you can distort a candle flame and smoke with an electrostatic charge:
What's In A Candle Flame?

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
@Tinsel

Have to performed the experiment of discharging two oppositely
charged Leyden Jars, independently
To Earth Ground?
And comparing this to the dual-discharge to each other?

the results vary slightly depending on the machine used
and conditions of the experimental environment

But what do these results tell you?
And how does that change your view on how we use electricity
in our modern equipment?

I can show you this mathematically on the atomic scale, it is how your semiconductors

Even the basic form of a schottkey diode demonstrates this.

This is how we bridge the gap inside a transistor, or turn “on” a vacuum valve.

They buried Tesla over this. And hid his work for long enough to establish their wasteful
process of throwing 1/2e in the trash to charge us \$\$

We are just breaking the surface on what a positron actually ‘is’.
But the math for it already exists. We label the numerical value as a “lack of electron”
Or “electron hole”.
The math is the same. Math doesn’t lie. Just the people describing it.

We can argue over the semantical existence of positrons, but at the end of the day
We have a numerical conundrum.
If you like: Call it an atom that is missing its electrons and has also
some magical ability to defend from environmental electron absorbtion.
It’s the same.
We declare this at the elementary level, then ‘forget’ the equal and opposite value when we
apply the charge to our circuit. We ground it out and call it “0V”

You don’t see the problem with this?

Why does static electricity, when stepped-down, still spark through almost anything it finds?
Our 1-sided electricity does not do this as the same voltage levels.
When we step-up our modern electricity to HV it is not the same as what is produced by
Our induction machines. We can see this when we experiment with it.
it’s not the same substance, because the old form uses Both halves.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
And for the record, my 4-ft acrylic disk turns everything I own into a conductor.
Including rocks, plastics, glass, wood, concrete, and the 5/8 thick acrylic itself.

I estimate it to be over 1M after the first few seconds at 60rpm
5-gallon bucket caps click at faster than 6hz
And if they are too far apart one of them goes through to ground.
White paint bucket or the orange Home Depot one.
Which tells me I need to step up to a larger cap if I knew why material to use.

At 10-12 nf we’re talking about moving a joule in nanoseconds.
How many million Amps do we need for it to be considered
‘countably infinite’?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 24, 2017, 11:41:12 PM
Hi Void,

Please let me quickly clarify; my post was primarily geared toward suggesting a re-think
or expansion of "capacitance concepts" by way of referencing some electrostatic (electrodynamic)
principles.

BTW, I find Tajerek's approach to be, for the most part, consistent with those that
are sometimes presented when discussing electrodynamics with respect to capacitance. It's not
uncommon to use varying theories when discussing a subject, based on the process you are
attempting to describe.

Plus, I'm not sure the "displacement" part of Maxwell's equations (or at
least the revised version by Heavyside, et. al.) has ever been adequately resolved.

The Electophorus reference was provided to accentuate a change in charge (Q) of a capacitor
without the need or use of apparent electron flow as is defined in conventional current (i).

I hope that after reviewing the attached supplements you will appreciate my submission, at least
to some extent. Also, since these forums are not frequented to any extent, there's a lot that I miss.

FWIW. Briefly, one focused objective here is to review promising (working?) devices, theories and
concepts mostly by way of mathematical description(s) and prototype; such that further CAE/CAD
modelling and analysis can be employed to technically verify the approach; or at least point out
areas where current theory may need enhancement, modification or a complete re-write. The next
step so to speak!

And hey - that electrostatic wheel thing (see above) some fellow did on Youtube a while back - at
least we know it doesn't work as claimed using conventional theory... those one's are easy to
analyze and simulate!  Don't be too harsh - some of the the "masses" crave (need) their fake news!

Best wishes to one and all. May the "Clause" be with you!

SL
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 25, 2017, 12:52:04 AM

BTW, I find Tajerek's approach to be, for the most part, consistent with those that
are sometimes presented when discussing electrodynamics with respect to capacitance. It's not
uncommon to use varying theories when discussing a subject, based on the process you are
attempting to describe.

Hi SolarLab. I guess you didn't follow the discussion too closely then. He really
wasn't making any sense that I could see, based on what his circuit diagram shows.  ;)
It was not a discussion of electrostatic induction. No worries however.

All the best...

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 25, 2017, 01:57:43 AM
Both theories are correct in their own respect.

In one way the capacitor charges inductively
Change in charge induces opposite charge in the same way
that a moving charge induces its opposite.

In the other way, the capacitor is charged through brute force
Current
in either case, it becomes charged.

And discharges a given amount of energy based on the formula that was mentioned.

The math supports both theories, in the way in which they are applied.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 25, 2017, 05:56:04 PM
Merry Christmas Everybody.

A slightly more " pedestrian " video than the one I watched presented by Tinsel Koala.

We should be able to move a little Mass with 20,000 volts!   ;)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 25, 2017, 07:39:46 PM
Merry Christmas Everybody.
A slightly more " pedestrian " video than the one I watched presented by Tinsel Koala.
We should be able to move a little Mass with 20,000 volts!   ;)
Cheers Graham.

Hi Grum. Very nice demo! I believe that kind of setup is called 'Franklin's Bell' or 'Franklin's Bells'.
Yes, lots of power there to move some significant mass. If you replaced the the two metal balls
on the sides with metal Christmas bells, then you could have a real Christmas type demo.  ;D
Nice job!

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 26, 2017, 07:09:19 AM
Merry Christmas Everybody.

A slightly more " pedestrian " video than the one I watched presented by Tinsel Koala.

We should be able to move a little Mass with 20,000 volts!   ;)

Cheers Graham.

Merry Christmas Graham,

An interesting [thought provoking] demo, thank you!

Could you please share some details regarding:

(1) the metal ball diameter,
(2) weight {if you know it}
(3) sphere material {stainless, grade, ... if known},
(4) voltage {20KV DC?}, and consumed current {if measurable},
(5) distance of ball travel and approximate reverse dwell time and speed?

Worth a try at any rate - to see if the simulation comes close to the experimental results.

SL

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 26, 2017, 12:53:50 PM
Merry Christmas Graham,

An interesting [thought provoking] demo, thank you!

Could you please share some details regarding:

(1) the metal ball diameter,
(2) weight {if you know it}
(3) sphere material {stainless, grade, ... if known},
(4) voltage {20KV DC?}, and consumed current {if measurable},
(5) distance of ball travel and approximate reverse dwell time and speed?

Worth a try at any rate - to see if the simulation comes close to the experimental results.

SL

The field equations indicate a spacial surface area effect dominates the electric field
The larger the diameter (and subsequent surface area), the less significant mass becomes.
According to mathematical theory, larger balls will have the potential to move more mass.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 26, 2017, 01:25:41 PM

The field equations indicate a spacial surface area effect dominates the electric field
The larger the diameter (and subsequent surface area), the less significant mass becomes.
According to mathematical theory, larger balls will have the potential to move more mass.

More to come....

Video update planned for later today.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 26, 2017, 05:09:27 PM
As promised.    :)

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: wattsup on December 26, 2017, 06:41:13 PM
@Grumage

A question if possible. On your video, are the two non-moving balls secured to their present position in any way?

Observation: If they are, since the balls are 6" dia. and since the travel between the balls is 1 foot, maybe you can take a small thin wire coil tapped to the top of the center ball with a thin insulator while the center ball is centered between the two end balls and put that on a scope as it moves left and right.

The question I would have is what are the actual movements of the ball. It is a steady smooth movement or is it a collection of jagged micro nudges that are nudging the ball in each direction?

wattsup

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 26, 2017, 08:16:47 PM
My dear Wattsup.

There's no way on earth I'd put my scope anywhere near 40,000 volts!!

Yes the end spheres are quite well anchored using Blu tack.

Another way might be to do a short clip taken at high speed and then watch in real time?

The centre sphere is always charged up to the potential that each end has, positive or negative, that charge acting then to repel itself away and become attracted towards the other end.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 26, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
As promised.    :)

Cheers Graham.

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the spec's, Excellent!

Looking forward to reviewing what several premier CAE tools come up with.
May take a little while - have to set up the analysis and fit in some workstation time
[some of these take days to run, fix, and re-run].

Glad you clarified the florescent tube mystery - 40KV - at first glance, well - you
know - tubes are dark?   ;)

Quite an impressive scenario you developed!

SmOky2 - maybe a good "optimization goal:"
Voltage vs Size/Weight vs Distance/Speed?  Academic? - not entirely...

Also: recall Prof. Gerald H. Pollack, University of Washington, book/videos
"Fourth Phase of Water;"     ""Likes like like""" ???   Starts about 9:20 in video;
And; Water => free energy discussion at about 12:50.
Anyway, sometimes things may not be exactly what we "think" they should be. Oh well - TBD.

SL
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 26, 2017, 11:36:38 PM

:P
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 27, 2017, 02:43:22 AM
1 coulomb on each ball
Placed 1 meter apart

F = something to the tune of 9^9 Newtons?
Of course our balls aren’t THAT big.....

But if you Do decide to go for it

You don’t need 40lbs of copper like mine
Thin steel wire armor will work
Try to avoid aluminum, your suit will ionize

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 27, 2017, 02:43:54 AM
.Resized photograph.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 27, 2017, 11:51:51 AM
Hey guys. See the following video of a test circuit I was testing
with this evening. I'd be interested to get some feedback on these test results:
The circuit is powered with a single AA battery. There are no other sources
of power to the circuit. Output has a 2000uF capacitor connected at the output
to try to collect 'radiant' energy from the oscillator switching spikes. This output capacitor
voltage is fed back to the battery to try to self loop the test setup. The battery voltage is
bouncing between 12.86V and 12.87V throughout the test run shown in the video.

(Sorry for the messy test clip leads, but when I am doing initial testing I often use
test clip leads so I can quickly make changes to the setup to try out and compare
different configurations.)

Blocking Oscillator With Feedback - Self Loop Test Setup

What do you think? Choose one of the following:
a) Looks like probably a self-sustaining circuit, or very close.
b) Looks like it might be a self-sustaining circuit, but not so sure.
c) Can't really tell based on this video.
d) Over unity is impossible, so this circuit just can't be self-sustaining.
e) A light is lighting up quite bright while the battery voltage remains
pretty stable, so it must be over unity.
f) This is the secret to over unity.

All the best...
;)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 27, 2017, 12:09:12 PM
I’m gonna go with G here

did you measure the charging current at the battery?
You probably want to back the V down a bit
closer to the charging voltage of your AA
led should still light up 7.5-8v,maybe lower depending on the diode.

12v (with enough current) will charge a AA, but you risk some events.

The real test would be how much is actually being returned to the battery.
For that you need an oscilloscope to see the frequency, pulse width, off-time, etc.

Or run it for some time, then turn it off and test the battery.
Or you could just wait......  that may take a while, some JT’s can run for months like that.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: peper10 on December 27, 2017, 03:47:16 PM

Hey guys. See the following video of a test circuit I was testing
with this evening. I'd be interested to get some feedback on these test results:
The circuit is powered with a single AA battery. There are no other sources
of power to the circuit. Output has a 2000uF capacitor connected at the output
to try to collect 'radiant' energy from the oscillator switching spikes. This output capacitor
voltage is fed back to the battery to try to self loop the test setup. The battery voltage is
bouncing between 12.86V and 12.87V throughout the test run shown in the video.

(Sorry for the messy test clip leads, but when I am doing initial testing I often use
test clip leads so I can quickly make changes to the setup to try out and compare
different configurations.)

Blocking Oscillator With Feedback - Self Loop Test Setup

What do you think? Choose one of the following:
a) Looks like probably a self-sustaining circuit, or very close.
b) Looks like it might be a self-sustaining circuit, but not so sure.
c) Can't really tell based on this video.
d) Over unity is impossible, so this circuit just can't be self-sustaining.
e) A light is lighting up quite bright while the battery voltage remains
pretty stable, so it must be over unity.
f) This is the secret to over unity.

All the best...
;)

Well!!  For a guy that has no problem hitting others when they say that is possible to get self runners, I SHOULD give you the same treatment... But I will not..  Give us more date on how you have conduct your experiment and we can conclude on results..
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 27, 2017, 04:06:18 PM
h)  The meter ACTUALLY says 1.287 V, NOT 12.87 V.       :'(

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 27, 2017, 07:14:14 PM
h)  The meter ACTUALLY says 1.287 V, NOT 12.87 V.       :'(

Thanks TK

If that was fully charged at the time, a 0.5v drop
across the inductor and led, it probably won’t last very long.

Edit: there is another side to the “actual voltage” when measuring that way.

Which is discussed from every angle in the many joule thief threads.

Ultimately the duty-cycle is what you should be looking at.
Dual scope, one across a resistor between battery and load
and one across a resistor between load and neg of battery.
Then you get a glimpse in real-time of what goes in and out.
And from the return side, you can know the “in”, by plugging the data sheet
values into the equations to get an idea of the internal battery current.
You can know if it is charging or depleting

It is better for your battery to use a controlled charging circuit separate from the load.
You can replace the AA with a supercapacitor.
This eliminates the problem of damaging the battery.

You can also instantly know with a super cap, wether your energy is being provided or consumed.
Their internal resistance is unidirectional.
Meaning the load has a consistent Ohms. (they try to anyways)
While the charge resistance follows more the curve of a capacitor.
In this way it acts as a battery for a load, but can charge very quickly,
Even while providing energy to the load.

You can even place a switch somewhere in the circuit
So you can turn it on/off
And check the voltage in the rest state.

Or hell, this is the 21st century, find your block diagram on the internet
Get its ieee #, and pull up the data sheet

It will tell you more than you want to know about your circuit.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 27, 2017, 07:27:05 PM
I’m gonna go with G here

did you measure the charging current at the battery?
You probably want to back the V down a bit
closer to the charging voltage of your AA
led should still light up 7.5-8v,maybe lower depending on the diode.

12v (with enough current) will charge a AA, but you risk some events.

The real test would be how much is actually being returned to the battery.
For that you need an oscilloscope to see the frequency, pulse width, off-time, etc.

Or run it for some time, then turn it off and test the battery.
Or you could just wait......  that may take a while, some JT’s can run for months like that.

Well!!  For a guy that has no problem hitting others when they say that is possible to get self runners, I SHOULD give you the same treatment... But I will not..  Give us more date on how you have conduct your experiment and we can conclude on results..

h)  The meter ACTUALLY says 1.287 V, NOT 12.87 V.       :'(

Ha ha. ;D Yeah, I was just having a little bit of fun.
There are of course a few things that are quite wrong are not so good with my test demo.
The most obvious being that the circuit is only pulling a very small current compared to the
Ah capacity of a typical AA batery. The particular battery I used in the demo is a rechargeable
type that is rated for 2000 mAh! A short 5 minute demo of a circuit that appears to be drawing
only around 1mA is of course way too short to be able to try to draw any sort of reasonable conclusions
about whether the battery can remain charged up or not. ;D

Also, as TK pointed out, the battery voltage can't be 12.87V as was indicated in the video and in
my comment, so although that could maybe just be a typo/mistake, it needs some clarification. Also
when you are applying switching spikes to a capacitor or battery, you can't trust the digital meter to
be reading exactly right, as the high frequency switching spikes can cause a digital voltmeter to
read off. It is better to disconnect the battery for a moment and take a quick voltage reading with
the circuit switched off to make sure the digital voltmeter reading is not being thrown off by the
high frequency switching spikes. In this case it was reading close enough, but it was somehwat
susceptable to the high frequency switching spikes, as when I moved my hand close around the meter
its voltage reading would sometimes change by a few hundredths of a volt or so.

Also, the viewer of the video doesn't know how accurate the anaolg ammeter is, so that is another problem.
In this particular case the ammeter spring mechanism has been bent from being accidentally hit
with much too high of an over current pulse a few times, so the meter doesn't zero properly any more.
The meter is still useable to get an idea of the current, but it reads about 0.5mA too high. You have to
subtract 0.5mA from the meter reading to get the approximate actual current reading. The actual current
draw from the battery in that test was therefore actually closer to around 600uA, so the actual current
draw was even less than you might think if you just watch the video.

There are other things that are not so good, with a fairly messy circuit and cluttered video viewing area,
and with test lead wires running off the screen so you can't see exactly where they are going. In this
case however there really wasn't any tricks. The circuit was really only powered from the single AA battery
as I said, but because my test run was way too short for the circuit current draw compared to the
battery's current capacity of 2000mAh, you just can't tell at all whether the battery can really hold
its voltage or not. In this particular case with the circuit only drawing about 600uA, I should
at the least let the test setup run continuously for a few days to get any idea if the battery voltage
really might be holding steady or not. A continuous test run for a full week or even more would be an even
better test run period for this type of very low current draw setup. :)

Anyway, this should be pretty obvious to people who have been in the OU game for any length of time,
but less experienced people might possibly miss some of the problems with that demo. It was at least good
that I was making an effort to measure the circuit supply battery voltage and battery current draw in my
demo video, but some effort should really be made to show that the meters are reading accurately before
starting the test run, and care should be taken to make sure that a possible mistake such as I mentioned

Good luck with your experimenting guys!

All the best...
:)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 28, 2017, 03:14:43 PM

:P

Do you think we can transfer this type of electrostatic linear action
Into a rotary force, such as in a sterling engine?
Basically, operate a crank with it

Or an inductive solenoid, could possibly generate electricity from the
physical motion caused by the charge force.

It is important to note that the force presented by two opposing charges
Is not directly coupled to the power transfer that causes this force.
Meaning, the force exists when no charge is moving.
No current.
No current, no power consumption. Yet there is force.

If we ignore coronal losses due to insulator inefficiencies
The power consumption of this type of device is reduced to
The capacitance of the moving conductor, and the magnitude
of the charge.

The power production (or work) is force over distance.
This is not a 1:1 power conversion
But rather a relativistic transformation
of charge to mechanical energy.

Consider the Newtonian example of real world scenario
What is the “quantity” of energy required to physically
cause this oscillation?

Now what is the solenoid equivalent?

And how does that situation compare to the capacitance
discharge cycle, shown in this video?

We see here, that the energy difference must come from the static field.
The charge

But we do not calculate a depletion of the charge
In fact, in most conditions, this type of action reinforces the charge.

The only depletion (aside from the insulative loses) is through the capacitance
cycle. - a set quantity of energy transferring at a set rate.
The frequency of this discharge define the time over which the force is applied
across a given distance.

This can be compared to the solenoid example, if we remove the inductive constant.

The electrostatic circuit is not a single conductive circuit.
And therefore, Ampere’s Law does not apply to the charge force.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 28, 2017, 03:29:03 PM
We can now USE Ampere’s Law, to extract this energy.
By simply magnetizing the capacitive sphere, or attaching
The moving sphere to a mechanical rod that moves a magnet.

A coil placed appropriately between the two stationary charges
can be used as an inductive pick-up coil to siphon energy
directly from the charge force.

While this will affect the velocity of the moving conductor
(and thereby reducing the frequency proportional to the load)
It does not affect the charge or the force.
Or the quantity of energy being transferred by the capacitance.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 28, 2017, 03:49:15 PM

Now that we have a clear image of how the Diameter affects the force
Due to the magnitude of charge held in capacitance.
Let us move on to how the Mass of the moving object affects things.

If capacitance can be maintained, while reducing the mass of the
moving conductor, more force can be siphoned out in the form of
electrical energy.

For example, a hollow sphere of the same diameter.
Less mass means greater acceleration imparted by the same force.
Because F = ma
If m goes down, a goes up.

The inductive constant presented by Ampere’s Law, is the mathematical
synonym for the effects caused by mass.
The anti-force imparted by the coil onto the moving magnet
Has the same effect on the moving conductor that mass has on it.
The greater the inductance, the lower the acceleration.

This is defined by the magnetic portion of the Lorentz Force equation.
We can set this value to the acceleration caused by the charge force
and find the inductive equivalent to the inertial mass function.

This defines the quantity of energy, over time and distance,
That can be extracted from the charge force, by lowering the conductor’s
mass by a given value. (assuming the mass was originally at maximum for the device)

——————————————————————————-

I’ll sort of re-cap that to make it simple:

The charge can move up to a certain mass
If we lower that mass, the charge moves it faster
If we slow the smaller mass down to the same speed
that the larger mass moves at (by extracting energy from it)
The charge force is not changed.

We therefore can take freely the difference in energy.
Without changing the input and output of the electrical energy
Per cycle.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 28, 2017, 03:59:05 PM
We see here,
that total input and total output hold an inversely proportional relationship

As output increases, input decreases.
This stops at the point where we extract so much energy, that the conductor
can no longer move. Resulting in no charge/discharge, no input and no output.

So we take a value of energy slightly less than this, and we result in maximum output
and minimum input. (Low frequency discharge).

In this condition we are extracting the maximum value of energy from the charge force.

In the theoretical ideal condition of a massless conductor, with infinite magnetic strength
We could extract infinite energy from relatively finite charges.

But our conductors have mass and our magnets have even more mass
So these are our current limitations
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 28, 2017, 05:00:56 PM
Hi sm0ky2.

I set up one of the 150 mm/6" spheres using a thread suspended from the ceiling. After a few seconds the sphere became a " wrecking ball " !! This was acting between the Van De Graaff generator collector and another 6" sphere held by me acting as ground.

If I was to fix the sphere to an insulated rigid tube and the other end was attached to a " sprag clutch bearing " I could effectively turn the violent to and fro movement into rotation. With gearing this might have enough energy to drive a reaction machine to provide the supply??

I'm pretty sure there's other ways to do this too.

Cheers Graham.

;)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 28, 2017, 10:29:34 PM

:P
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Void on December 28, 2017, 10:35:41 PM
Nice job Grum and TK!

All the best...
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 29, 2017, 03:42:46 AM

:P

Hi TK,
What is this grey matter? Where could we get it?
Blueplanet
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 29, 2017, 03:50:01 AM
Well done. [size=78%]I think to and fro movement is enough to produce electricity. Conversion of a linear motion into a rotational one will involve energy loss.[/size]
All the best.

(PS. We probably need some radium or whatever to intensify the electrostatic effect.)

Hi sm0ky2.

I set up one of the 150 mm/6" spheres using a thread suspended from the ceiling. After a few seconds the sphere became a " wrecking ball " !! This was acting between the Van De Graaff generator collector and another 6" sphere held by me acting as ground.

If I was to fix the sphere to an insulated rigid tube and the other end was attached to a " sprag clutch bearing " I could effectively turn the violent to and fro movement into rotation. With gearing this might have enough energy to drive a reaction machine to provide the supply??

I'm pretty sure there's other ways to do this too.

Cheers Graham.

;)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 29, 2017, 04:11:58 AM
F.Y.I.

RE: GRUMAGE CHARGED MOVING SPHERE DEMO - some related background study.

Hopefully these will be of interest and value as a precursor to a computer aided
engineering (CAE) analysis of Graham's device demo. This also serves as a
good example of technically expanding, in an effort to further understand, a unique discovery or idea.
Reference: From Michel van Biezen's  "ilectureonline.com"  http://www.ilectureonline.com/ (http://www.ilectureonline.com/)

{Physics, E&M index:
http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/5 } (http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/5)
http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/35/247 (http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/35/247) }

Electric Potential Outside a Spherical Conductor

Physics - E&M: Electric Potential (12 of 22) Potential In-, On, & Outside a Spherical Conductor

Physics - Gauss' Law (10 of 11) Electric Flux

[[believe it or not - this is how we (used to) do it - no CAE CAD CAM -
a chalk board and slide rule - to the Moon and back no less]]

Physics - Electrical Potential and Electrical Potential Energy (1 of 6)

Physics - Electrical Potential and Electrical Potential Energy (2 of 6)

Physics - Electrical Potential and Electrical Potential Energy (3 of 6)
Physics - Electrical Potential and Electrical Potential Energy (4 of 6) ***
*** note:  mass matters - kinetic energy - (proton mass = 1.67 x e^-27 kg)!

Physics - Electrical Potential and Electrical Potential Energy (5 of 6)

Physics - Electrical Potential and Electrical Potential Energy (6 of 6)

All 6 videos are related to the analysis (CAE) ...

And; since the demo essentially involves three charged spheres, the 8
lectures in this series apply: starting with - Physics - Coulomb's Law (1 of 8 )
***  !< 7 of 8 and  indirectly 8 of 8 >!

I personally find Michel van Biezen's presentations to be superb!

Or:
Electric potential energy of charges | Physics | Khan Academy

{yea, right, I recall all those derivations! - maybe new millennial math?}  :o)

If you made it this far - you can quickly appreciate employing a CAE/CAD approach.

Q. End plates versus end spheres?

FIN
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 29, 2017, 05:28:43 AM
All that is left now, is to use the charge force to run the machine
That causes the induction of the charge.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: SolarLab on December 29, 2017, 07:07:56 AM
F.Y.I.

To close out 2017 - one last item.

Virtually all CAE is based on Maxwell's Equations, thus an appreciation of the
approach is given below (for some it's not as mysterious or difficult as you may think):

Lectures in MAXWELL'S EQUATIONS

http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/5/57 (http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/5/57)

{Endure the forth lecture if nothing else:
http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/5/57/833 (http://www.ilectureonline.com/lectures/subject/PHYSICS/5/57/833) }

Happy New Year!

FIN
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 29, 2017, 12:46:57 PM
And a happy New Year to you and all in the “ free energy “ research area.

This is the direction that I’m currently taking.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3577.msg66279;topicseen#msg66279

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on December 29, 2017, 02:36:16 PM
Now that's interesting!

Perhaps bring a positively charged plate very close to one side of the hot wax. If the wax was in a  grounded mold then it should become negatively charged. Keep the positive influence close until the wax hardens.

If the wax would actually lock in the negative charge state then you would have something like an electrostatic magnet.
.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Grumage on December 30, 2017, 12:49:24 PM
Dear Erfinder.

Thanks for sharing the demonstration.

You open showing that there’s no continuity between the windings of your machine and the output terminals. I assume that your machine is “ commutated “ either mechanically or electronically to achieve this?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 30, 2017, 04:32:33 PM
Your demonstration proves nothing, illustrates nothing, because as usual you do not provide enough information to determine what you are showing and whether it is actually interesting or not.

There are any number of ways to produce what you've shown in your video. For example, just a simple, small, spark gap, off screen, in series with your wiring to the welding rods would allow you to show the same "zero conductivity or continuity" and "infinite (not "zero") resistance" readings from the meter. Then when you turn the device on and draw an arc from the visible welding rods, this small offscreen gap would of course be bridged, allowing continuity to the welding rods on-screen.

So you've demonstrated only that you have a high current output along with a small degree of HV necessary to jump a tiny gap. And that your power supply is somehow associated with a noisy motor that cannot sustain RPM when under the load represented by the short-circuit arc or the halogen lamp load. What has this to do with anything discussed in this thread?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on December 30, 2017, 05:27:41 PM
Erfinder, thank you for increasing my comprehension with that video. I am not blind, nor deaf.

One thing that has always bothered me is the textbook explanation of cemf in a coil. A voltage is produced in opposition to the applied voltage. I always wondered; Produced? From where? How? I have an inkling now.

I wish I was around when you posted all of your other videos.

Respectfully,

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: penno64 on December 30, 2017, 07:24:58 PM
DIELECTRIC
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 30, 2017, 09:07:32 PM
Well, of course, “HV” is a matter of perspective.
To me it appeared to be in the low voltage range of things.
But then again, perhaps my mark is set a bit higher

The current was impressive, and if what you state about your set-up is true
Based on its performance

My thoughts are that it resembles a 2-phase A/C motor
with probably a 2-phase a/c output across the tungsten

When you short the generator side, Maxwell and Faraday agreed that the
the change in current through the coil induces a proportional voltage in
opposition to the change. I imagine if you arc too long it will completely
And as we also see, as soon as you break the connection it returns to the
original speed.

The other clue is that it operates at a specific rpm.

I could probably black box an identical device, but our windings would
be different. I would just reverse engineer the motor, based on your coil design.

If you want an arc-welder, just plug a transformer from any industrial appliance
Into a wall socket.
Arc off the secondary. Much more efficient
Good idea to have an in-line fuse lower than your house breaker
And do the same thing with learning how long to arc.

If you want to show off your motor (which actually looks interesting)
Then why not just show what it’s made of, instead of what it can do.

Or scope the duty cycle while you are arc-welding,
Or perhaps show something useful to make whatever point this has.

You tell us not to guess, then leave us guessing about the data you
are Not giving.

Are you claiming that this device is over unity?
And that the ‘secret’ is shown somehow by your video?

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Dog-One on December 30, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
Jack Noskills concept embedded in a rotational device.  Love it Erfinder!

I had a feeling when you smoked that last mo/gen you had, the next one would be even better.   :)

Induced and applied folks.  It's hard to get one's head wrapped around that, but you have to keep trying until you get it.  I can also testify it's real easy to slip backwards and catch a strong dose of "analysis paralysis".  You got to feel it in the gut, demonstrate it's real and never look back.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on December 30, 2017, 10:35:47 PM
Quote from: EF
As Tk pointed out...the demonstration was of a noisy device capable of producing high current and a little HV...(don't know how the majority feel about it, but high current and a little HV....sign me up...)  (haven't seen anyone else do it yet, including TK, and don't think I'll be seeing anyone, TK included, doing it any time soon...)

Well, that just shows you haven't been paying attention. Not only can I do it (and have demonstrated it in my videos) but I can do it _wirelessly_.

And in addition, I explain and demonstrate exactly how I do it so that _anyone_ with the interest and skill can repeat for themselves what I demonstrate. That's what OPEN SOURCE is all about.

I'm not especially interested in one-upmanship. What I AM interested in is that people support their claims with rigorous testing, accurate data, and on this OPEN SOURCE forum, sharing enough details so that the work can be replicated and examined honestly.

If you don't want to talk about what you are doing... fine, then DON'T.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on December 30, 2017, 11:39:01 PM
Sm0ky2 and TK,

The most significant thing in the video is not the generator output.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 31, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
Sm0ky2 and TK,

The most significant thing in the video is not the generator output.

I guess that is to be interpreted.
We dont know what’s in the box

The most significant thing to me was the spark and the glow of the metal.
That gives me a pretty good idea of the voltage and current
without measurement

As far as the things he is hinting at, hes no Robert Ripley.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on December 31, 2017, 03:27:48 AM
On the topic of OU...

A long time ago I came at this OU thing all backwards, trying to figure out how generators cut magnetic fields lines to “make” electricity. Of course that goes nowhere new by itself. So I started reading some physics and came across the explanations for charge, which led to electrostatics. We know that charge cannot be created or destroyed. So, does a generator generate by cutting lines of magnetic force or is there more to it?

Generators run for years, is all that electricity they put out contained in the copper and steel they are made of? Seems highly unlikely to me. I have never believed that the work used to turn the generator was the source of the electricity.. what, if I turn it by hand the energy I expend with my muscles is magically transformed into charge? No. If charge cannot be created then it must come from outside the generator. Electrostatic machines demonstrate that. To me, charge by influence is the most interesting of all.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just create a big charge sink and siphon off the charges flowing toward it?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on December 31, 2017, 07:25:45 AM
From what is shown in the video, there is no suggestion there was any OU effect.

While the welding rods were sparking, the generator noise was going down. This suggests the spark has consumed quite a significant amount of energy from the generator.

There was certainly a current in the spark. We cannot assume that the current in the spark was zero. If the current in the spark was high, the circuit would heat up everything around and you would never get OU.

Fame 2.0

....
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 02, 2018, 03:17:44 PM
From what is shown in the video, there is no suggestion there was any OU effect.

While the welding rods were sparking, the generator noise was going down. This suggests the spark has consumed quite a significant amount of energy from the generator.

There was certainly a current in the spark. We cannot assume that the current in the spark was zero. If the current in the spark was high, the circuit would heat up everything around and you would never get OU.

I find a more accurate description to be that the current through the output comes from induction.
And that the perpendicularly oriented magnetic field induced an opposing force on the generator.
It is the second part that actually “consumes” the power of the generator.

if you negate friction, the same occurs in a solid-state format through a transformer.

Electrostatic induction occurs without the perpendicular magnetic fields.

for the same reasons we raise the voltage of long-distance power lines.
magnetic field falls off with a drop in current.
but by raising the voltage, power levels remain the same.
We lose less by transforming it back down at the point of distribution.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 02, 2018, 03:22:14 PM
What I find to be interesting is by manipulating an electrostatic device
By choosing lightweight insulators
We quickly find ‘problems’ with the power equations.
especially when these machines are powered for long times using low-power
dc motors.

We know exactly the power consumed by the motor.
But attempts to calculate the power induced into the HV capacitors
do not conform to current theory.

The problem lies in the induced charge. Using capacitor duality,
we have a doubling of potential. Where does this come from?
the ambient?
0-point?
Or can it be related back into induction process?
If the latter is the case, then Maxwell was half-wrong,
or missing half of the information.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 05, 2018, 04:26:41 AM
Take a disk magnet, diametrically magnetized
and place it on the shaft of a dc motor slightly smaller than the magnet.

aligned with the coils

when you drive the coil, the energy gets recycled by the greater combined field.
A short pulse can result in extremely long run times (few hundred microseconds=2 mins)
as it slowly winds down
Nothing useful will be drawn from it during wind down
But the demonstration shows that the energy that ran first through it
can be converted into flux and back to current through the motor again and again
until the losses consume it.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: forest on January 05, 2018, 07:58:09 AM
Take a disk magnet, diametrically magnetized
and place it on the shaft of a dc motor slightly smaller than the magnet.

aligned with the coils

when you drive the coil, the energy gets recycled by the greater combined field.
A short pulse can result in extremely long run times (few hundred microseconds=2 mins)
as it slowly winds down
Nothing useful will be drawn from it during wind down
But the demonstration shows that the energy that ran first through it
can be converted into flux and back to current through the motor again and again
until the losses consume it.

This is important - show us video ! Actually generators run on positive feedback, not by converting mechanical energy
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 05, 2018, 12:14:51 PM

This is important - show us video ! Actually generators run on positive feedback, not by converting mechanical energy

when you operate a dc motor with electricity it make a distinctive hum or buzz

When you mechanically turn a dc motor to generate, it incurs a particular pulsing
You can ‘feel’ when the coil pass the magnets as you turn the shaft

When the larger field is rotating from momentum, both of these occur simultaneously
with the wires ‘open’ circuit, you have flux, without current.

First time I discovered this was using a 5&1/4” floppy drive magnet
took a few yrs to realize that it was Not the complex field of these magnets
But actually Any rotating magnet, oriented properly to the coils will do this

The field just has to be larger than that created by the internal magnets

The two fields combine to form a combined field, with the coil induction
forming a feedback flux between them. It becomes like a spring
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 07, 2018, 03:05:08 AM

my research indicates that you do have current with conventional open circuits, its value is infinitesimal, we need only figure out how to make it useful.

in my open circuit systems, I have both flux and current.....

No magnetic flux. Just current in the manner of charge movement from one place to another. And this current does not have to be from the same source because capacitor can be monopole rather than dipole.

I am talking about systems involving electrostatic waves.

(PS. CIA has declassified an article on scalar waves. This article seems to contradict some of the elements in the Maxwell's equations. )
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 07, 2018, 03:52:11 AM

my research indicates that you do have current with conventional open circuits, its value is infinitesimal, we need only figure out how to make it useful.

in my open circuit systems, I have both flux and current.....

Yes in the form of capacitance charging
you can set off oscillations in an open circuit
By making/breaking contact to one end of an open wire

At that point all you would need to do is match the impedance
to form an LC with the open circuit oscillations

Essentially a radio is this.  A single wire antenna is an ‘open circuit’

@blue
Magnetic flux can be demonstrated
It is short lived, as it disappears as the conductor reaches the max charge.
the magnetism only exists while the change in potential is occurring.

when the electric field is oscillating, the magnetic does the same.
At high voltages the magnetic field strength is very small
increases in conductivity at high voltages reduce inductivity
but it does still exist.

Any use of relativity theory will lead to discrepancies with maxwells work.
Because Einstein did not finish what he was doing. And left part of the equations
unhandled.

I don’t think this means Maxwell was wrong, but perhaps we need more information
to make his equations fully translatable at all levels.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 07, 2018, 05:06:49 AM

@blue
Magnetic flux can be demonstrated
It is short lived, as it disappears as the conductor reaches the max charge.
the magnetism only exists while the change in potential is occurring.

when the electric field is oscillating, the magnetic does the same.
At high voltages the magnetic field strength is very small
increases in conductivity at high voltages reduce inductivity
but it does still exist.

Any use of relativity theory will lead to discrepancies with maxwells work.
Because Einstein did not finish what he was doing. And left part of the equations
unhandled.

I don’t think this means Maxwell was wrong, but perhaps we need more information
to make his equations fully translatable at all levels.

I did not say Maxwell was totally wrong.

In a conductor, this oscillating magnetic field is parallel to the surface but the quantity can be extremely small compared to the voltage. That's where high characteristic impedance comes from, i.e. high electric field and  extremely low magnetic field. Inside a low-loss dielectric material, this magnetic field is possibly not measurable. If there is any measurable magnetic component, it is mostly like along the surface of the dielectric material.

By Poynting theorem, the power which can be transferred should be close to zero.   But the experimental facts suggest otherwise.  Unfortunately, all these Zenneck's stuff are too controversial to talk about.

(PS. I am talking about electrostatic waves.)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 07, 2018, 05:09:31 AM
This piece of news is funny. I am not sure how those Ben worshiper would react:

https://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/carson-rewrites-the-laws-of-thermodynamics/
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 07, 2018, 05:42:11 AM
the orders of magnitude are inversely proportional
In the same way that voltage and current are in the power equation
The same power can be represented by low V, high I
Or high V, low I

The same occurs with the electric and magnetic induction
because of the time constraints

above threshold voltages (800kV+) this drops to roughly
9.3x(10^-21) Joules per Tesla per volt per meter^2
when we factor out the Weber, we find that at high voltages
the magnetic moment is a very short pulse.
imperceptible to us, but not to a low-energy electron.

it stays at this strength until the other threshold, where matter change states.
then there is no induction, magnetic or electric.
Only charge. The electrons (charge carriers) have fled the scene.
(~2MV)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 07, 2018, 08:10:26 AM
the orders of magnitude are inversely proportional
In the same way that voltage and current are in the power equation
The same power can be represented by low V, high I
Or high V, low I

The same occurs with the electric and magnetic induction
because of the time constraints

above threshold voltages (800kV+) this drops to roughly
9.3x(10^-21) Joules per Tesla per volt per meter^2
when we factor out the Weber, we find that at high voltages
the magnetic moment is a very short pulse.
imperceptible to us, but not to a low-energy electron.

it stays at this strength until the other threshold, where matter change states.
then there is no induction, magnetic or electric.
Only charge. The electrons (charge carriers) have fled the scene.
(~2MV)

There are circuits that require only V to work. Not I. The eventual output power is not VI.

A movement of charge carriers will produce a conductive current, which in turns produces magnetic field. There is no argument against it. The magnetic field which you were talking about was possibly a conductive current of some kind.

A change of electric field also produces a current. This current is called displacement current. This displacement involves no movement of any charge carriers. This displacement current has been proven to be able to do work in some rare situations. But this current does not yield any meaningful magnetic field.  Are you sure you have been able to measure a magnetic field with a displacement current?

Blueplanet
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 07, 2018, 08:17:36 AM

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on January 07, 2018, 11:50:31 PM
I read somewhere that one cannot fill a cup that's already full....

Erfinder, my cup is empty, just ask anybody.

When certain people were investigating the harm done when high voltage DC was suddenly switched onto a line it was reported that stinging rays were experienced. I think that was an electrostatic effect, the sudden increase in potential causing an electrostatic field to explode from the wire. That field would attract the opposite charge to the wire and I think this is where cemf comes from.

Is this correct?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 08, 2018, 12:55:05 AM

Thank you, that ties right into the charge-drift phenomenon I’ve been studying
With the induction static machines
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 08, 2018, 01:00:47 AM

... non-Ohmic materials

In an example using a popular non-magnetic alloy “stainless steel”
(305 I think?)
we find that the magnetic field of the charge sphere to be
a function of the rate of change of potential
at the permeability of free space. (up to the threshold)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 10, 2018, 05:16:03 PM

The point is: displacement current does not produce magnetic field. If it does, this magnetic field is due to the conductivity of the dielectric material.

The fourth Maxwell equation is misleading. This is a well known fact.

And obviously, Poynthing vector is more misleading.

There are circuits that require only V to work. Not I. The eventual output power is not VI.

A movement of charge carriers will produce a conductive current, which in turns produces magnetic field. There is no argument against it. The magnetic field which you were talking about was possibly a conductive current of some kind.

A change of electric field also produces a current. This current is called displacement current. This displacement involves no movement of any charge carriers. This displacement current has been proven to be able to do work in some rare situations. But this current does not yield any meaningful magnetic field.  Are you sure you have been able to measure a magnetic field with a displacement current?

Blueplanet
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 10, 2018, 06:00:52 PM
If your system is an open circuit, i presume it generates AC sparks as well. According to some internet literature, electromagnetic discharge will not create a significant magnetic field because of the self-canceling effects of the ions.

https://www.quora.com/Does-plasma-generate-a-magnetic-field

The magnetic field strength of ESD discharge is around 100uT.

Sorry i don't have all the answers. I suggest you just try it out from experiments.

Since my machines use permanent magnets, I am going to go out on a limb and speculate that there is magnetic flux operating in "my" systems.... I am pulsing current into coils....current in coils produce magnetic fields....soooo.....  we aren't on the same page it seems....

Do you comprehend the difference and or commonalities between the flux of the permanent magnet, and the flux and current of a "current" carrying conductor of a "magneto-dielectric" system?

I do not acknowledge the commonly accepted view of the dipole....as such, the monopole concept as presented makes no sense.  When we see the dipole as Nature produces and maintains it, rather than how the learned present it to us, we can say dipole and mean monopole, say monopole and mean dipole.  Present geometry of both are fundamentally fucked, no parallels can be drawn between the two..

Yeah......here's the thing....I am not just talking about systems involving them.....I am demonstrating what one can do with systems which produce them.......  fire breathing pulse motor.....show me yours!
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 11, 2018, 11:53:07 AM

The purpose of my demonstration is not to introduce the question of the existence of magnetic fields in plasma....  my demonstration questions the established dogma regarding the possibility and feasibility of generating and utilizing "reactive power"...

You still need to find a way to capture this power.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 11, 2018, 12:04:46 PM

my system is open circuit....  part of the observable activity in the electrical discharge is AC.

If the electrical discharge come from one pole, like what happens in Tesla Coil, then it is called open circuit. It not, then it is just a closed circuit. I am afraid there is not much you can get from a closed circuit.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: hoptoad on January 11, 2018, 12:57:36 PM
snip...
The purpose of my demonstration is not to introduce the question of the existence of magnetic fields in plasma....  my demonstration questions the established dogma regarding the possibility and feasibility of generating and utilizing "reactive power"...
A nice dramatic demonstration too, I might add. You and I are reading from the same book, we're just on different pages with our research.
Mind you, your persistent references to Tesla's ozone generator on this forum, lifted the fog for me, and I could see one lilly pad in the pond that I've been on before but I hadn't fully explored around it  ??? . But I will explore. :)

Those sleepless nights you told me about. Well, thanks, you returned the favour!  ;)
Cheers and KneeDeep.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 11, 2018, 01:28:58 PM

you aren't paying attention....

Yes, Sir,
I have been working round the clock.
Thank you for your waking me up.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 11, 2018, 01:53:57 PM
Yes, Sir,
I have been working round the clock.
Thank you for your waking me up.

If he told us, it wouldn't be a secret anymore.......

Magnetic field interactions in a plasma take place entirely internally.
Similar to thermal convection.
There is no external "magnetic pressure".
The net external magnetic field is neutralized by the combination of
many plasma dipoles that float around within the plasma fluid.

The plasma will respond (or deflect from) an externally applied field
However, the external field feels very little force from the plasma.

The net (external) electric field of a plasma can be thought of as coherent,
However, the magnetic field remains scattered. There is an almost evenly
distributed sets of magnetic polarities external to the plasma mass.

To compound this process, each group, or packet of plasma, within the mass,
has its own unique mass, and properties of thermal and electric convection.
Owing to its' mass, the count of ions, and non-ionized particles, groups of particles,
electric charges, and other material floating within.

These groups of differing mass, cause the plasma fluid to take on properties that are
unique to plasmas, and do not occur in liquids or gasses.

For instance, a liquid can be polarized magnetically, such that the liquid mass as a whole
accumulates to a net external magnetic dipole.
Whereas each plasma mass group within the sample of a plasma in a magnetic field,
will respond according to the mass of the individual plasma group, and its individual
magnetic field strength. Making it impossible to polarize the entire plasma sample into a
single magnetic domain.

So, while we can use an external magnetic field to redirect, or contain a plasma,
We have very little control over the internal magnetic fields, or their use as an
external driving force.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on January 11, 2018, 03:11:28 PM

Doesn't anyone notice the huge block of dielectric material the motor is sitting on with the capacitors stuck in it?

All three videos, and in the second video one wire that he is drawing the arc to/from runs into that dielectric block.

The motors are air core with a heavy dielectric polymer casing.

(PS. I am talking about electrostatic waves.)
Yeah......here's the thing....I am not just talking about systems involving them.....I am demonstrating what one can do with systems which produce them.......  fire breathing pulse motor.....show me yours!

?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: CoastieRM2 on January 11, 2018, 04:10:43 PM
Brief introduction as I am a newbie. I am a retired former Industrial Arts educator attempting to keep the mind active with a shared challenge of OverUnity.  Have been an inactive observer of this website for sometime now and after a few years of trial and error, felt that it might benefit me to interact with others seeking same. I would like basic input on ethics of posting as I occasionally see less than polite references to contributors efforts. I am not certain where it is appropriate to post any personal efforts/results. Are the threads open or closed to personal input/progress? Thanks for any assistance in this area. I will post this on threads that interest me the most.

Hmmmm, 7 days and still no moderator.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Cadman on January 11, 2018, 04:32:20 PM
Ookaaay....

Then I am back to square one. Sure had me fooled.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 12, 2018, 11:57:35 AM

you aren't paying attention.....

We are paying attention to some machines like those mentioned in the following videos:

And this is what overunity is about.

Sorry man, I am interested in any welding machine.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 12, 2018, 01:56:20 PM
We are paying attention to some machines like those mentioned in the following videos:

And this is what overunity is about.

Sorry man, I am interested in any welding machine.

The tin dreadco can holds a voltaic pile and an hv transformer (low current, high voltage)
This in turn is fed to two electrodes, one with high electrostatic resistance, one with low
resistance. (Rounded and pointed)
This drives the brass buttons.

David jones was a genius, some of his devices are "perpetual",
This one should run for at least another decade.
But not "overunity", by the definition of the word.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 12, 2018, 01:58:50 PM

no....neither simultaneous, nor sequential..... SIMULTANEOUS-SEQUENTIAL!  comprehend that!

my purpose is not to convey the (a, or any) path to others....  all lack knowledge till they don't...  understanding that your ignorance grows with insight and revelation, respecting that you are a fart in the wind away from your beginnings no matter how far you delude yourself to perceiving "progress being made" is your curse until that glorious day when the ignorance which centers you is replaced with knowledge which is extended to you from we know not where.... we call it inspiration, it hits us in waves which leave one momentary blind...(blind flash of insight....), in higher forms, distilled by ...within us.... impressions are for lack of descriptive language....divine, the latter choice of word has no biblical, spiritual, nor religious connotation.

So are you going to show us the "secret" to your motor?
Or are you just tooting your horn to a frequency beyond
Our range of hearing?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on January 13, 2018, 10:55:53 AM
Err pardon me but shouldn't we be exposing perhaps selections of circuit techniques or disusing them, rather than having re runs of quote flash backs from Kung fu  Chinese Tae Che from master Po (Keyle Luke).

Allen
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: lancaIV on January 13, 2018, 01:39:43 PM
From https://www.google.com/patents/US8847720 (B2 = US patent office granted) going to citing documents in the WO-espacenet :

Lukas Emch
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20061031&DB=&locale=&CC=CH&NR=695975A5&KC=A5&ND=3#
( CH-patent office granted)

probably a help

Sincerely and a successful year 2018
OCWL
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on January 13, 2018, 02:42:08 PM
Well all I can say to you is if you don't want to disclose any ideas or active device sections why on earth should we. There are plenty of devices and ideas on the internet only find them and build and test them.

Allen
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on January 13, 2018, 04:02:28 PM

Honestly.....I am not interested in your ideas...nor sections of devices you may or may not be working on.  I am not interested in devices presented (save one or two which I have researched) on the internet.  Replicating other peoples failures will not get me where I want to be.  I am where I want to be, and share what I want, how I want.

Honestly...We are not interested in "ideas" that are not shared either. Everybody can be a dick. You don't need a forum for that.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on January 13, 2018, 04:08:38 PM
and before you misquote me how are others quotes on the internet mine ? and how do you know if they are failures or not, you don't really know, control and conjecture is just a trip down the rabbit hole.

I will say good day to you and not bother you again.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: mikemongo on January 13, 2018, 11:59:04 PM
as to what, the reactive cross section of the system....  as to why, to be introduced to the inner workings of the mechanism behind opposition to change....
Delay the flow of output current until it can aid the input current is how I am seeing this.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: evostars on January 14, 2018, 11:13:11 PM
recycling of energy.
put a current into a magnetic coil.
create resonance in a parallel coil.
capture the back emf of the magnetic coil into a capacitor.
Buffer the stored back emf until the right phase angle,
and reinsert the back emf from the capacitor into the resonant coil.
The coil becomes even more resonant (higher voltage).
The resonant coil is coupled to the magnetic coil.
This creates a feedback loop.

A second resonant coil is resonant with the first resonant coil.
rectify the high frequency second coil for output.

Magnetic coupling is slave to Lenz law.
Electric field coupling is not.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 16, 2018, 03:55:42 AM
Take the 3rd phase of a commercially engineered motor/generator
Reverse it, use it as a capacitor
you sacrifice 1/3 torque, but cancel 2/3 of the reverse emf
So you gain ~33% efficiency on a motor that runs at 85-93% already
mathematically, there is a quantity that “should not be there”,
yet here there is a motor providing 66% of its max power
with 33% of its normal input.

it is the same process we consider “reactive power”
but the phase angle is different than what is considered
this is not just a metering issue.

Reactive power can be used outside of the normal increasing/collapsing field.
if we consider the times during the transition
which is what the 3-phase induction motor is designed to interact with
there are times during which both conduction and induction
occur simultaneously.

the 2-phase motor, or the 3-phase operating on only two coils,
have a direct relationship between conduction and induction.
But throw a 3-rd field into play, at anything other than the right time,
and both the forward and reverse relationship between the two change completely

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 16, 2018, 04:09:08 AM

Magnetic coupling is slave to Lenz law.
Electric field coupling is not.

I wouldn’t go that far.
According to Maxwell, the magnetic field is always present,
when there is electric flux.

Though the magnitudes may seem small relative to ourselves
They most certainly still are there.

I’m pretty confident I could figure a way to prove this with nanoferrites
But it’s probably a redundant waste of time like putting a c-speed particle clock
on a rapidly moving vessel.....

If we don’t use it, we don’t have to worry about it, until we do.
like an idea of this? Next time the power goes out, wait for your street side transformer
to kick back in, and throw a fork at it.

Or if you want to get fancy, set up a few hundred magnetized needles of strings around
your room when you charge a large sphere with static electricity and shock yourself.
(homework: why do dense steel needles react more violently than soft-iron paper clips?)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on January 17, 2018, 09:34:11 AM

reactive power generation and utilization.....that's my direction.

the bottom line of all those I have studied is "reactive power generation and utilization".  Most were not openly discussing the subject in a language that all could appreciate, reading between the lines was necessary.  I read between the lines like any good researcher could/would.  The rest were failures, they neither inspired nor delivered working demonstrable concepts.

I am not here to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, not here to give you something to nitpick or replicate.  I am sharing what I want how I want.  Place me on your ignore list if my post lack the substance you crave.
If I wanted input from one of Godre'el's trolls id ask for it, BUT I DIDN'T ! now go away and stop CREATING verbal diarrhea like a gaboladicton and messaging me with it  'respectfully' STOP it!
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: endlessoceans on January 18, 2018, 12:41:47 AM

.

No one I have met has ever produced an air core generator which accelerates under short.....
No one I have met has ever produced an 1000 rpm increase in their acceleration under short demonstrations....

Regards

I have done both.  Solid state and mechanical.  Principle well understood and it far beyond anything that has ever been posted at this site, that's for sure.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on January 18, 2018, 06:09:06 AM
Me too.

Also:

Reactive power generation and utilization:

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 18, 2018, 07:09:15 AM

The output current waveform is not a pure sine wave.
This is an indication of the presence of non-linearity in the circuit.
You cannot multiply amplitudes of voltage and current and their cos angle together to get the output power.
To get the real power, you need to integrate V(t)*I(t) for the whole cycle.

On the other hand, if the current was truly that much, it will generate a lot heat.

The best way to validate overunity efficiency is to check if it is self-sustaining over a few months.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: TinselKoala on January 18, 2018, 07:23:04 AM

its a sign of the times......you really believe we are on the same page......we aren't.......

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day!
You've shown time and again what page you are on. I'm not even in the same book as you!

Quote
anyway....  nice work as always.

Thanks. Maybe you can even learn something by watching carefully, if your cup isn't already overflowing.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: hoptoad on January 18, 2018, 07:36:42 AM
I have done both.  Solid state and mechanical.  Principle well understood and it far beyond anything that has ever been posted at this site, that's for sure.

Care to extrapolate or demonstrate/show any data or other visual evidence of your work?

TK always shows what he knows, his capability and knowledge is widely acknowledged and he is well respected for his contributions.
But even TK might not be seeing something obvious in a given circuit, when the obvious might be so easy to dismiss.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 18, 2018, 08:56:56 AM

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day!
You've shown time and again what page you are on. I'm not even in the same book as you!

Thanks. Maybe you can even learn something by watching carefully, if your cup isn't already overflowing.

Have just gone through some of the videos from your group. It is fascinating.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 18, 2018, 09:14:57 AM

you assume that I use common practices to generate what I refer to as reactive power.....

a condition one would be wise to comprehend and multiply.

your statement reveals that you are only aware of one means of "integrating" voltage and current.  I am aware of more than the collectively agreed upon you are referring to.

it's clear you don't comprehend the nature of a tank and how energy moves within it.  Fortunately my machines don't work based on your logic, I have significant current flow.....and the coils are sightly above ambient...and I know why....

If I were discussing over-unity, if i cared about efficiency, or a self sustaining system, your point would be valid.  I am focused on usable phenomena relating to the apparatus and method of conversion.

My comment was originally intended for TK. Never mind.
So, what is your method of converting var to watts then?

(EDIT: Sorry, it seems that you both were talking about the similar idea.)

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 18, 2018, 11:13:51 AM

Mine is not a method through which vars are converted into watts, I process the vars.

we aren't...  not even close.

Could you tell us how to process vars?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 18, 2018, 12:34:22 PM

Could you tell us how to process vars?

multiply the voltage times the current times sin(theta)
Where theta is the phase-angle between V and I
This gives you your var (volt-ampere-reactive power)

var processing involves manipulation of the V-I phase angle.
Figment or imaginary power

Real power is measured by instantaneous voltage and current

Imaginary power is measure like: let’s take the voltage Now,
measure the Amps later, and we’ll combine the two and call it a var
instead of a watt. (figuratively speaking)

In practice this is only done during a discrete range of phase angles
Where there is partial over-lap of the voltage and current signals
so that the two interact, bringing a vectored sum of the imaginary power
and the real power into reality.

If their angle is 0, you have real power.
If their angle is too far apart, you have No power.
vars (imaginary power) exist anywhere in between.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on January 18, 2018, 12:38:08 PM
vars to watts

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 18, 2018, 12:48:02 PM
Watts to vars

https://www.electrical4u.com/varmeter-single-phase-and-polyphase-varmeter/ (https://www.electrical4u.com/varmeter-single-phase-and-polyphase-varmeter/)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: endlessoceans on January 18, 2018, 01:10:43 PM

Solid state lacks a fundamental component, and if you haven't figure that out yet, you will eventually.  If you have accomplished what I am suggesting mechanically, I would love to see a demo,

Actually I see how one might think that if they only have half the picture.

You haven't accomplished this feat in SS form?  HUH.....oh well keep at it.  Seems you aren't where I thought you were.

Carry on...... :) :)  and all the best with whatever you are tinkering with
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 19, 2018, 03:58:18 AM

depends...  would you be of the opinion that an open circuit generator is a producer of vars?

I have no opinion at all.
I am just learning.
Its up to you to decide if you should disclose your technology at the time of your choice.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: luc2010 on January 20, 2018, 02:40:01 PM
HI,

How Nature use/prefer electrostatic or magnetism forces?

related but not quite the same thing...

sure....one "can" consider what I am suggesting from this angle, the task then becomes how do you demonstrate this.  When I was at this particular point, my demonstration came in the form of an air core motor generator which accelerates when shorted.  In that machine,the phase relations between the motor and generator are so arranged that the induced in both augment facilitating a roughly 1000 rpm increase under short.

No one I have met has ever produced an air core generator which accelerates under short.....
No one I have met has ever produced an 1000 rpm increase in their acceleration under short demonstrations....

Regards

it must be related to tesla ozone patent!! wait a moment...OMG even you are using tesla coils?

why tesla use coreless coils?... the game title opposition to change!!!

best regards
luc2010
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 20, 2018, 04:12:47 PM
ferrous core gives increase in magnetic field, at the cost of energy.

In a generator, the core provides an increase in electrical induction
At the cost of increased mechanical input.

In an inductor with core, the cost is increased electrical input.

Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: LabDeSyn on January 20, 2018, 08:43:14 PM

the sad truth is folk listen to accept, and limit themselves to this shit.....  everything is wrong with what you are saying.....

Can you elaborate on that?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: forest on January 20, 2018, 09:07:33 PM
let's start pissing contest  :P
magnetic field is the source of energy
you need high energy density to get high energy output
of course induction is the only way
you got it, right ?
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 21, 2018, 12:22:39 AM
1.257 x (10^-6) Henries/meter
Can you beat that with any ferrous material on Planet Earth?

(P.S. I can hit the toilet from 7.5 ft away.......)
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: blueplanet on January 26, 2018, 03:51:09 PM
vars to watts

Yes, apparently.

But the bitoroid thing is highly nonlinear. Perhaps, this is the reason why there are so many high order harmonics in the input current. Chance is that some of the input power has been wasted as noise but the scope could not measure it.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: D.R.Jackson on February 11, 2018, 07:04:15 PM
This is interesting because I think I was doing this very thing, I replaced a capacitor with an inductor, in fact a transformer to make use of the power level I saw in the capacitor.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: D.R.Jackson on February 11, 2018, 07:06:10 PM
This version shows the capacitor C1.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: D.R.Jackson on February 12, 2018, 11:25:13 AM
Actually I see that in re-reading the first post in these threads the ideas are not the same but they sounded similar to mine.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: AlienGrey on February 17, 2018, 03:42:01 PM
sm0ky2

1.257 x (10^-6) Henries/meter
Can you beat that with any ferrous material on Planet Earth?

(P.S. I can hit the toilet from 7.5 ft away.......)

sounds messy....

[/quote] Ah! your all school kids!
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: bringdownthezog on October 25, 2018, 04:35:12 AM
the HV source will of course have current but you don't need significant current to push charge into a low ESR high voltage capacitor. If you have doubts try it for yourself. And the time it takes for full recharge is 5*RC time constant which is doesn't depend on current either its formula speaks for itself. It is only function of the resistance and capacitance.

As example 3kv cap of 1uF with ESR of 0.3 ohm can store 4.5 joules in 0.000000015 s. This technically means you can charge it and recharge it 333k times per second. with a frequency up to 333khz. The time can be made shorter still by increasing voltage beyond the rating of the capacitor.

I do not discharge the cap into a resonating tank circuit as you stated, but I discharge it into inductor forming together the tank circuit only during discharge then the circuit is opened to recharge the cap again.

There is such a system called the E-stress amplifier which works by electrostatic induction. Its both practical and economical. Use it, share it, build it or do what you want.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: Belfior on October 26, 2018, 12:12:43 AM
to figure out free energy you need to engage your right side of the brain. Everything in our modern life is designed to keep you engaging the left side. This is the matrix.

We are going through a part of our galaxy that has more energy and that is manifested on us via solar flares. This hopefully pops enough of us from the left side matrix and we stop worrying about money and cars.

I was wondering that if Tesla had a secret he wanted to share, he would only give it to the ones that understand. Now what might be the Tesla book to read?

There is so much more to our existence than we can imagine. The right side of the brain will tell us the secrets.

If this sounds like bullshit to you, if you are still engaging the left side. It won't let you even wonder about these things. If you are over 40, you might have a chance to pop out. Take the red pill
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: bringdownthezog on October 27, 2018, 02:42:03 AM
You can hook up the E-Stress device to a DC converter and nothing will change except perhaps the economy of conversion. Charges flow when they see a gradient. It doesnt matter if its DC or AC.  The notion that DC is current driven is a whole lot of crud.

Tesla found a way to transfer energy by resonant circuits. If this is not a revolutionary improvement I dont know what is.  ;D
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: F6FLT on October 27, 2018, 04:06:05 PM
It's now common engineering, for example to connect successive amplifier stages of radio receivers or transmitters in case of frequency selective amplification.
The two coils that are side by side in this VHF circuit board (http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Radio/Musée/Vendée%207SD/3-%20Vendée%207SD%20-%20Electronique%20VHF%20et%20bloc%20HF.jpg) from the 70's are matched with the small variable capacitors above.
There is nothing but magnetic coupling to transfer energy from one stage to another.

It is just the principle of the transformer but with windings spaced apart and enhanced by resonance. It still obeys Maxwell's equations provided we use the right mutual induction coefficient.

Similarly, electrical coupling can also be used, especially when an open terminal capacitor is used.
Title: Re: The secret to Overunity
Post by: bringdownthezog on October 27, 2018, 07:13:31 PM
Tesla designed his system on quarter wave resonance. I should choose my words more carefully.