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Author Topic: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.  (Read 123248 times)

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #120 on: February 24, 2018, 04:22:51 PM »

"BI-FILAR PANCAKE COIL –The voltage between adjacent turns in an ordinary coil is very low, and so their ability to generate additional energy is not good. Consequently, you need to raise the voltage between adjacent turns in an inductor. Method: divide the inductor into separate parts, and position the turns of the first part in between the turns of the second part, and then connect end of the first coil to the beginning of the second coil. When you do that, the voltage between adjacent turns will be the same as the voltage between the ends of the whole coil !!! Next step – rearrange the position of the magnetic and electric fields in the way needed for applying amplifying energy (as described above). The method for doing this is – the flat pancake coil where the magnetic and electric fields are arranged in exactly the way needed for amplifying energy.

Now, it is clear why Tesla always said that his bi-filar pancake coil was an energy-amplifying coil !!!

REMARK: for the best charging of the natural self-capacitance of the coil, you have to use electric pulses which are as short as possible, because the displacement current as shown in Maxwell’s equation, depends to a major degree on the speed of the change in the magnetic field".

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #121 on: February 24, 2018, 04:38:48 PM »
Quote from Utkin:

"Definitions of Physics:
Any conductor has both inductance and capacitance, that is, the ability to accumulate charge on it’s surface. A charge on the surface of a conductor creates an electric field (electrostatic field). The potential (voltage) at any point of the electric field is a scalar quantity!!! (That is, it is a scalar electric field ...)".

If the electric charge of the conductor varies with time, then the electrostatic field will also vary with time, resulting in the appearance of the magnetic field component:"

sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2018, 04:42:15 PM »

@smoKy2,

The NIC is an Op Amp circuit. The Op Amp is an integrated circuit. The last two examples are negative capacitance followed by negative inductance. The difference is the reversal of the inductor and capacitor position in the feedback loop. I don't believe the negative inductance application the author's talking about is the "Inverse Henry" that we measure with the inductance meter, but a value that applies to the function of the Op Amp.

The pertinent question is; Let's say your correct about a magnetic field in the alligator clips, "Is the magnetic field in the clips a value measured by the inductance meter in the negative range"?

The INIC (not VNIC) is the tool used for proper circuit analysis
of a negative inductance.
Eliminates measurement errors.

And having magnetized alligator clips can CAUSE measurement errors
because of the way the meter measures inductance.

The way you were playing with that choke, it is likely that you magnetized them.

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #123 on: February 24, 2018, 04:44:54 PM »

The INIC (not VNIC) is the tool used for proper circuit analysis
of a negative inductance.
Eliminates measurement errors.

And having magnetized alligator clips can CAUSE measurement errors
because of the way the meter measures inductance.

The way you were playing with that choke, it is likely that you magnetized them.

@smOky2,

The choke reads normal rated inductance immediately after the magnets are removed.

sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2018, 04:51:19 PM »
Here’s another simple test
Apply a voltage across the inductor

Using the measured ohmic resistance, calculate the current.

Next, using the inductance formula, calculate the current
by inserting the (negative) value you measured for inductance.

Next, measure the actual current.

is.

sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2018, 04:52:58 PM »

@smOky2,

The choke reads normal rated inductance immediately after the magnets are removed.

Wrong

It measures outside of its rated tolerance.
Did you never question “why”?

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2018, 05:02:16 PM »

Wrong

It measures outside of its rated tolerance.
Did you never question “why”?

@smOky2,

The issue here is whether the inductance meter measures an "Inverse Henry" or not.

sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2018, 05:07:07 PM »
@smOky2,

The issue here is whether the inductance meter measures an "Inverse Henry" or not.

If the meter is giving you a false reading it would explain both the negative value
it is showing you on a normal copper wire inductor

As well as the false reading on the choke.

I’m not arguing against the magnetic field reducing the inductance
This is an obvious effect.
But for it to go negative, means you are inducing a reverse current.
and I don’t believe this to be the case with what you have shown.

sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2018, 05:10:57 PM »
I say that because the DMM you use is a voltage-biased device
and it shouldn’t even be able to induce a reverse current to give that
measurement, in an unpowered circuit.

Swapping the clip leads with ones you know have not been magnetized
may also clear things up

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2018, 05:20:40 PM »
I say that because the DMM you use is a voltage-biased device
and it shouldn’t even be able to induce a reverse current to give that
measurement, in an unpowered circuit.

@smOky2,

The meter is not measuring a reverse current it's measuring the presence of magnetic energy.

sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2018, 06:33:02 PM »
@smOky2,

The meter is not measuring a reverse current it's measuring the presence of magnetic energy.

It is measurzing the voltage and current, from a dc-to-ac converter
and making a calculation based on the phase angle and corresponding impedance.

It cannot make any distinction between the true inductance and the capacitive aspect.
Nor can it display the actual effects of applied magnetism.

I didn’t say it was measuring a reverse current, I said if there was really a negative
inductance, it would be INDUCING a reverse current.

You could ignore this information and continue to delude yourself...
Or you could make an effort to make accurate measurements.
The choice is ultimately yours to make.

A matched LCR bridge circuit can give you accurate readings
however, these will fail in the case of true negative inductance.
For this you have to also include the circuit above (or equivalent)
with the bridge.

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2018, 07:58:17 PM »

It is measurzing the voltage and current, from a dc-to-ac converter
and making a calculation based on the phase angle and corresponding impedance.

It cannot make any distinction between the true inductance and the capacitive aspect.
Nor can it display the actual effects of applied magnetism.

I didn’t say it was measuring a reverse current, I said if there was really a negative
inductance, it would be INDUCING a reverse current.

You could ignore this information and continue to delude yourself...
Or you could make an effort to make accurate measurements.
The choice is ultimately yours to make.

A matched LCR bridge circuit can give you accurate readings
however, these will fail in the case of true negative inductance.
For this you have to also include the circuit above (or equivalent)
with the bridge.

@smOky2,

This is the first time anyone has offered an alternative explanation to my theory that makes sense.

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2018, 08:48:03 PM »
@smOky2,

Why do you feel the negative inductance reading is cascading in the bifilar when it stays unchanged in the single wire?

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #133 on: February 24, 2018, 09:25:23 PM »
@smOky2,

What's the definition of a Henry of Inductance?

synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4588
Re: Negative Inductance and measure of Magnetic force.
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2018, 10:59:46 PM »
@smOky2,

I'm willing to accept your explanation only so far because if you look at this quote below, perhaps you can tell me what you think the author's talking about when he states that "the inductance will measure as a negative inductance when the meter is set to measure inductance"? The author is implying that the negative inductance measure is as reliable as a positive capacitance measure.

"Above that frequency, if the meter is still set to measure inductance, it will measure as a negative inductance. If the meter setting is changed to measure capacitance, then it will measure a positive capacitance". Mar 30, 2004

The author is referring to the NIC Op Amp negative inductance circuit you posted.