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Author Topic: Confirmation of OU devices and claims  (Read 214529 times)

Offline a.king21

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #285 on: April 28, 2019, 02:13:16 PM »
Point taken, Itsu.  I was referring to Rick's  video on the subject and the ultimate claims.


Benfr:  Can you let us know the full specs of your 100 volt bulb please?  A photo would be great.

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #285 on: April 28, 2019, 02:13:16 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #286 on: April 28, 2019, 02:56:07 PM »
Hi a.king21,

Would like to ask you whether you are aware of the received power levels quantitatively at the output of each receiver module? LED lamps (say with 3 to 5 W data sheet ratings) are surely lit but actually how much power drives them is not shown as measured, this is why I ask.

It is ok that performing such measurements is not easy (instruments are in the vicinity of the strong EM near field of the single transmitter coil). Perhaps Using a full wave diode bridge across the AC output of each receiver modul and say the use of 100 or 220 uF puffer capacitors to filter the diode's DC output would help: this DC output then could drive a known resistor load across which just a DC voltage level check would be needed. 
The value of these resistors could be calculated like this: if the shown LED lamps were say 12V and say 3W rated, then their equivalent resistance were (12 x 12) / 3 = 48 Ohm, ok? (use a 47 Ohm, at least 2W rated ones). This is the load any such LED lamp (12V, 3W) would represent towards any 12V voltage source when the source is able to maintain the 12V voltage level.  For other LED lamps the same calculation can be used to learn what actual load they represent when fed by their specified voltage.

Obviously, if the voltage level is say 11V or 9.5V or less, the consumed power by this LED becomes less and less too, LED lamps are non linear loads. However, the actual DC power dissipated in a resistor can immediately be known by a simple DC level test across the resistor. If you find say only 10V across a 47 Ohm resistor, then the consumed power would be (10x10)/47=2.1W and so on.  Notice that a 2V less input voltage (wrt 12V) results in almost 1W less power draw.

For diode bridges,  the cheap UF4007 fast Si diodes are fine, especially if each diode in the bridge is made of two paralleled ones, to reduce overall voltage drop across the bridges.Or use Shottky diodes to make the bridges to reduce voltage loss further on.

This way, by summing up the DC power levels in the resistors across each receiver output, and checking the DC input to the transmitter coil driver IC, a fair comparison of the input and output powers can be obtained. 
Are you aware of any such tests done on a single transmitter, multiple receiver modul setup?

Could you do such tests if you have such kit? This is the only way to arrive at any performance evaluation.
If truth is important, that is.
I am not trying to nit-pick with you or anyone else, even a 'mere' COP = 1.5 result would be fantastic, not to mention anything higher, like a COP 144 claim. Do you agree?

Thanks, Gyula

Offline a.king21

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #287 on: April 28, 2019, 05:45:41 PM »
I think the uf4007 diodes are only rated to 800 volts. whereas the circulating voltage in the series resonant tank circuit is claimed by Rick to be much higher - up to > 2000 volts.
 
The kernel of Rick's claims are that in a series tank circuit at 18 volts to the gate driver at resonance - the amperage stays the same both outside and inside the circuit whilst the voltage can rise up to 144 times  in the circulating current in the series tank circuit. Hence the claim of COP 144. So this should be an easy test for individuals with a scope to do.  There is no point in going further until Rick's claims are verified independently and multiple times.  we need verification of the above point. Even cop 3 should prove the main point  ie that at resonance we have a real gain.




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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #287 on: April 28, 2019, 05:45:41 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #288 on: April 28, 2019, 08:12:29 PM »
A.king21,

The phenomena of the Q times multiplication of input current or voltage in resonant LC circuits has been known since LC resonance was discovered.

So, with resonant tank circuits the voltage across L or C can be Q times as high as the input voltage source and if the unloaded Q of a particular LC setup is say 144, then the 18V input is multiplied by 144, giving 2592 V across L or C.

 BUT I wrote the use of diode bridges across the AC output of the RECEIVER modules and it is the transmitter side where these high voltages are present and Rick measured it across his single transmitter coil!
For the receiver modules which are excited by near field EM radiation from the single transmitter coil, and the modules placed at a distance from the transmitter coil, you can be lucky if some hundred volts appear at the output of the receiver modules, it all depends on the distance, the amount of the load (LED wattage rating or load resistor value) and the number of receiver modules, so no need for 2000 volts rated diodes at all. Even if there was a need, you could always connect two or three UF4007 diodes in series, their forward voltage drop of about 3 or 4 V would still be negligible when the receiver circuit indeed develops > 1000 or 2000 volts.   But there is but maximum some hundred volts involved in the receiver modules anyway.

By the way here is a data sheet for the UF 4000 diode family, the UF4007 type has 1000 V reverse voltage rating:
https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/UF4001-890177.pdf   
Some data sheets from other manufacturer specify this in RMS as 800 V  maximum (but the peak reverse voltage is still given as 1000V for the UF4007).  But anyway the diode type cannot be an issue, ok? Think of microwave owen diode types etc.

Regarding this text: "The kernel of Rick's claims are that in a series tank circuit at 18 volts to the gate driver at resonance - the amperage stays the same both outside and inside the circuit whilst the voltage can rise up to 144 times  in the circulating current in the series tank circuit. Hence the claim of COP 144."

This is what is correct to say:  the input current to the gate driver IC may change relatively little when it drives a series LC circuit at resonance and you couple receiver modules to the single transmitter coil (provided the driver IC has very small output impedance).  If 18 V feeds the LC circuit from the IC output, and the unloaded Q of the LC circuit HAPPENS to be 144, then the Q times the 18 V appears across either the C or the L member of the LC series circuit, ok? Please study what factors influence the Q of a resonant LC circuit, lots of information can be read on the web. 

The problem is that this voltage multiplication does not mean average power (or energy) increase with respect to the average input power (or input energy) what the driver IC output feeds into the resonant LC circuit.

So what should really be tested is what I already suggested: to sum up mathematically the outputs of the receiver modules across their output loads and then confront this with the input power the driver IC consumes, to get the COP value.

THIS is the ONLY test which would be correct to perform.

You wrote: "Even cop 3 should prove the main point  ie that at resonance we have a real gain." 

Once again: you or Rick has voltage gain at resonance, this does not involve COP > 1 performance. IF anyone thinks differently, then he or she should perform the correct tests (as I suggested) to make sure about it. 

It is not the replicators's task to prove that Rick's setup has a COP > 1 performance.
COP evaluation is not based on voltage or current amplification.

Please consider to answer my questions posed in my previous post. I answered to your above post on what should be verified.
Gyula

Offline itsu

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #289 on: April 28, 2019, 09:04:42 PM »

Gyula is so right (again).

looking at Rick his video, he is measuring with his scope across the C of a "series LC".
A FG (50 Ohm) is across the whole LC, so "sees" at resonance a minimum impedance (few Ohms).

When doing this in LTspice, i get for C=100pF, L=157uH and a resonance frequency of 1270Khz the below picture.
Green is the FG input across the whole LC (10Vpp), blue is the signal across C (stabilizing at 180Vpp)



Doing the same with one of my coils/cap (100pF / 163uH) i get the below screenshot.
Purple is the sine wave input from my FG (800mVpp).
Blue is the signal across C (98Vpp).

So do we have a cop of 122 here?  I don't think so.
My LCR meter measures a Q of 121 across this LC circuit, so very close.

(The "Rick LC simfile.png" attached below is again the LTspice sim file used, please rename to .asc to use in LTspice). 

Itsu
 

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #289 on: April 28, 2019, 09:04:42 PM »
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Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #290 on: April 29, 2019, 11:48:25 AM »
Hi there !!!

Well, I'm impressed. I see Itsu's setup photo and telling that 's a dream come true. You are close to being able to replicate a Don Smith #2 "massive overunity" system. You have started to open the door. Congratulations !!
I also think that a.king21 has had such a creative and positive contribution to this thread. I suspect now that a.king21 has far more knowledge than I do !!

Itsu, you are stating to have worked on Don Smith systems and gave up. What a story ! I believe, now I have not yet gone so far, that if you get Rick Friedrich's book it will help you understand how you couldn't achieve discovery. Please BEWARE Don SMith system's are a "one hand in the pocket" machines, and that you should never touch any cable while in operation !
The power we are talking of right here are deadly. You would die instantly, even be vaporized. Don SMith 's systems are not a toy ! Rick Friedrich's RICK kit is safe. I would recommend to master it before building something bigger ! If you wish to stay alive of course ... ;)

Now I have 2 little 'mistakes' written and I need to correct it. The frequency is not 863KHZ with these capacitors. I have confused my reporting with an anterior experiment the same hour, please pardon me.
I will sum up again.

3 cap 100 pF
3 coil 157 uH
1 freq gen at the point of resonance as indicated in RICK 's kit : 1.25 MHZ (it is around that value, between 1.20 and 1.30, but you can dowse by 10 KHZ to find it quick-like. to find it you can position the bulb firsthand and then modify the frequency as indicated).

the positioning of the coil is also incorrect : I wrote to connect a 100 V bulb on x and y on the following series :
x- cap - inductor - cap - inductor - cap - inductor - y
but it is not correct. the one to use is :
freq gen cable A - capacitor -x - inductor - cap - inductor - capacitor -inductor - y - freq gen cable B
Sorry ! I was too hurried. But I believe what I'm bringing here will keep your faith.

The good news is while preparing my photo and noticing my 2 short mistakes*, I have noticed an even simpler and cheaper setup.
You can actually do this overunity setup with just 1 coil and 1 cap !!! :
cap - x - inductor - y.
(in tradeoff, you need to use 13 V instead of 11 V ).

An important statement to make as I see some of the measurements tried above involve oscilloscopes : you CANNOT use a OSCILLOSCOPE for it will CHANGE the resonance. (this is called a probe effect and it is well described in the kit ).
You must stick to real values things ie BULBS, LEDS that you know. The bulb you see is as stated a 100 V bulb that I bought in the USA.

Additional note : This test come also show overunity from a 1 V input to light 4 V LEDS : just replace the bulb with the LED, and drop the voltage down to 1 V.

IF YOU WANT TO SUPPORT OVERUNITY DISCLOSURE CONSIDER SPENDING 100 USD TO BUY Rick Friedrich's RICK KIT who has never hidden anything of his vast knowledge and genius to US ;D (I have no interest in the sales what so ever  ;))

Now the photos will speak ! One photo speaks 1000 words !

* short but enough to render impossible the voltage 700% overunity.


Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #291 on: April 29, 2019, 11:51:46 AM »
photo 3 coils

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #291 on: April 29, 2019, 11:51:46 AM »
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Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #292 on: April 29, 2019, 11:52:50 AM »
RICK kit 2 coils overunity

Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #293 on: April 29, 2019, 11:54:40 AM »
1 coil overunity Rick Friedrich's "RICK" kit

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #293 on: April 29, 2019, 11:54:40 AM »
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Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #294 on: April 29, 2019, 11:55:43 AM »
with 3 coils and a slight manipulation, I was able to light it from 8.7 V, too.

Offline itsu

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #295 on: April 29, 2019, 12:51:58 PM »

Hi Benfr,

Ok thanks, so that is your 100V bulb?

To me that is a NE-2 neon indicator lamp, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lamp

It lights up across the capacitor when there is 90V plus or so across it, and there is as shown in my post #289 or so above.
The problem is you can not use it other then lighting up such a neon indicator or some leds.

Please read up on series resonance circuits:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/series-resonance.html

Under "Impedance in a Series Resonance Circuit"


And yes, my 2 coil setup also lights up such a neon indicator at 12V in resonance, see picture.


Itsu
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 05:34:47 PM by itsu »

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #295 on: April 29, 2019, 12:51:58 PM »
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Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #296 on: April 29, 2019, 01:46:28 PM »
Yes, it's a NE-2 bulb, I can recall it. Congratulations !

Offline seaad

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #297 on: April 29, 2019, 04:28:46 PM »
itsu
 ;D ::) Thumbs up !!
Nice teaching!

Don't raise the input voltage You can kill yourself  8)

Regards Arne

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #298 on: April 29, 2019, 04:57:27 PM »

Hi benfr,

Very nice setups you show with the kits, thanks and congratulations to you too. What I would like to understand is
why you describe this setup as overunity ?   

You are surely familiar with so called Joule thief circuits. If not, you can find plenty of information on this forum
or on the web, just search for: Joule thief  They are basically known as kinda blocking oscillators. 

The reason I mention this is that a neon bulb like you use (NE-2 type) does not need an expensive kit to make it light up, 
just build a Joule thief oscillator and take say an 1.2 volt battery and the bulb will be lit nicely with them.
Here is a 4 minute long video showing it in action: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxIXESkS3I

The circuit can work from even a discharged battery that has about 0.84 VDC only and you can see input voltage amplified
up well over 100 volts shown on the oscilloscope. Do you consider this as 100 times overunity?
Here is another Joule thief for operating a neon bulb:
https://www.instructables.com/id/high-voltage-joule-thief/ 

If you have some more time, this video includes several Joule thiefs including neon bulb: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqAP_tyEqg   

Gyula

Offline benfr

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #299 on: April 29, 2019, 06:15:33 PM »
Hello Gyula,

You seem a lot experienced, and you are more than I am in joule thief circuit, which I don't know.

May be your question relates to COP > 1 ? Here we observe a COP of 7 to 10. This is manifested in voltage only. That's more than enough to change the world by a good bit, already !  :)

To answer your question "why you describe this setup as overunity ?" it is probably a misunderstanding about what happens in the circuit.
Although it may appear not as clearly stated, this article enunciate the case for energy amplification :
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/series-resonance.html
 
Simply said, if you can multiply voltage while keeping the same amperage, you have therefore overunity.
The case is what we have here : a voltage amplification -  while there is no compression, nor any irregularity of the outpu
t (no more than the regularity of the input) : just a plain same frequency output at the same frequency than the input but a voltage many times offered.

I could understand your question of course if you 'd suspected we had reduced the amperage in tradeoff, or if the voltage amplification was apparent for a small duration irt the input voltage... As you now have understood, it is not the case here.

 

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