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Author Topic: Confirmation of OU devices and claims  (Read 183400 times)

Offline itsu

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #390 on: May 06, 2019, 05:32:46 PM »
Itsu good craftmanship!
As this experiment is using a [almost] square  wave input we can first estimate roughly a minimum of 15 -20 percent loss [ see your Spectrum Analyze ] only depending of wasted overtone energy that will never be sucked into the secondary coils if I'm right. The Secondary coils are only tuned to one tone, the first (over)tone.
To check if I'm right. Pls. make a spectrum reading at the point before the diode bridge. But without the diode bridge and with a 50 Ohm load.  Strong first tone and weak (no) overtones.
If you see strong overtones there with similarity to  the primary emission, then I'm wrong. Not enough filtering! Maybe good in your eyes.
See also my previous impedanse matching suggestions.
 If you are able, make some efficiency tests with 3, 4, 5 sec. coils to see and evaluate, predikt if a much greater number of secoday coils maybe will improve the effectiveness.
In my eyes the main issues here are impedanse matching, the primary wave form and LED:s  ::) .
If you still belive that the sharp square waveform is a must for the best result then the secondarys have to be constructed in a different way so they are able to take on, suck up All harmonics. Of course only valid if I'm right. Good filtering now.

Regards Arne

I modified one of the RX coils by removing the FWBR and buffer cap so we have the LC circuit and a 51 Ohm load resistor.

The Spectrum analyzer was across this 51 Ohm load and still shows the harmonics present across this RX series LC, but way less then what the TX coil transmits

So it seems the RX coils also partly absorb that harmonic energy radiated by the TX coil and thus all is not lost.


Itsu

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #390 on: May 06, 2019, 05:32:46 PM »

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #391 on: May 06, 2019, 06:52:09 PM »
That article specifically addresses iron core transformers hence Ferro-resonance. Here we are talking about air core transformers which do not exhibit this effect.

Ferro-resonance is typically used in transformers to provide a degree of voltage regulation. (CVTs)

A slightly higher Q might be obtained if ferrite rods, Litz wire and low dissipation factor capacitors such as vacuum or mica types were used. The ferrite rods would allow fewer turns for the same inductance, thus cutting down on copper resistive losses. Nevertheless, the power coupling would still be less than 100%. The efficacy of the improvement would depend on frequency as ferrites also get lossy at higher frequencies so there would be an optimum frequency point where benefit could be achieved for a given ferrite material type.

Alternately the air core coils could be made of silver plated thin wall copper tubing as used in radio transmitters to keep losses low and Q high. Still, it will be less than 100% power transfer.

Regards
Err! don't be so quick to judge as that might be considered misleading information Mr. Vortex! as in the first section, that same none linear tactic is actually used in air spaced coils and works should anyone care to try it best results could be a pancake type coil or a tuned tank coil assembly.

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #392 on: May 06, 2019, 07:25:53 PM »
Err! don't be so quick to judge as that might be considered misleading information Mr. Vortex! as in the first section, that same none linear tactic is actually used in air spaced coils and works should anyone care to try it best results could be a pancake type coil or a tuned tank coil assembly.

OK, I'm willing to learn AG. How do  I make a non-linear air coil? Kindly show me the BH curves or any other data showing results of your non-linear air coil as I would like to make one and test it myself.

Kind Regards

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #392 on: May 06, 2019, 07:25:53 PM »
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Offline seaad

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #393 on: May 06, 2019, 08:21:32 PM »
I modified one of the RX coils by removing the FWBR and buffer cap so we have the LC circuit and a 51 Ohm load resistor.
The Spectrum analyzer was across this 51 Ohm load and still shows the harmonics present across this RX series LC, but way less then what the TX coil transmits

So it seems the RX coils also partly absorb that harmonic energy radiated by the TX coil and thus all is not lost.

Itsu


Thanks Itsu for making the test.

This is my interpretation of the test result.

In your first Tx spectrum test:   The Tx radiated overtones are about 18 dBm below the ground-tone.   => Our incoming spectrum going to the Rx coil(s).
But now the Rx test gives :       The Tx radiated overtones are about 68 dBm below the ground-tone.

That differense 69 - 18 = 50 dBm  is One-hundred-thousen times less in power.
 That means that the Rx LC(R)-filter filters avay, rejects practically all the transmitted   overtone power  from the Tx coil.
So power from the overtones goes up in "smoke" and partly becomes extremely small.

So now is the question how to solve that dilemma?

Regards Arne

Offline itsu

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #394 on: May 06, 2019, 08:52:13 PM »

Hi Arne,

you are absolutly right, the difference is hugh and the word partly is the wrong word.

Yes, the question is if that power lost in harmonics is affordable compared to f.i. using a sine wave as input.
If a sine wave does not produce any magic and the square wave does, then the choice is obvious.

But up till now no magic is seen at all.

Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #394 on: May 06, 2019, 08:52:13 PM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #395 on: May 06, 2019, 10:35:20 PM »
OK, I'm willing to learn AG. How do  I make a non-linear air coil? Kindly show me the BH curves or any other data showing results of your non-linear air coil as I would like to make one and test it myself.

Kind Regards
A Tesla coil or nonlinear resonance is a type of series resonance in electric circuits which occurs when a circuit containing a nonlinear inductance is fed from a source that has series capacitance, and the circuit is subjected to a disturbance such as the opening of an electronic switch BEMF.
It can cause overvoltages and overcurrents in electrical or electronic circuitry and can pose a risk to equipment and to operational personnel in close proximity.

This is getting off topic I see no advantage in any further discussion as it can work for me in my experiments without going off on a tangent and disrupting the thread further.

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #396 on: May 06, 2019, 11:02:22 PM »
A Tesla coil or nonlinear resonance is a type of series resonance in electric circuits which occurs when a circuit containing a nonlinear inductance is fed from a source that has series capacitance, and the circuit is subjected to a disturbance such as the opening of an electronic switch BEMF.
It can cause overvoltages and overcurrents in electrical or electronic circuitry and can pose a risk to equipment and to operational personnel in close proximity.

Quote
the same none linear tactic is actually used in air spaced coils and works should anyone care to try

AG;

I agree that there is such a thing as a non-linear inductance, and such a device usually has some type of saturating ferrous core.

I would be very interested in such a non-linear air core inductor that is constructed of an air core alone without ferrous material.

So I will ask again for your actual non-linear inductor BH curves or supporting tests that show your air core to be a non-linear inductance.

Show me the circuit containing a non-linear inductance that is made up of an air core alone. That was the original point of argument.

Test data is the requirement here, not dissertation on non-linear resonance. Short of data and accompanying test circuit, I'm not interested in going further with the argument.

Regards

P.S. Itsu, sorry if this seems a derailment, but it is an important point that maybe deserves it's own thread.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #396 on: May 06, 2019, 11:02:22 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #397 on: May 07, 2019, 12:04:19 AM »
...
This is my interpretation of the test result.
...
Hi Arne,

I also agree with your reasonings but you need to consider some facts and then rethink the situation.   

Itsu wrote in his post #352 that he checked the harmonics with the Spectrum Analyzer by picking them up with a probe near by the TX coil.  So this means a loose capacitive coupling through the air between the TX coil and the probe, ok? The probe had no any direct (galvanic) connection with the TX circuit. 

So this means that we cannot consider the displayed harmonic levels of the TX square wave drive to be good for a correct comparison with the harmonic levels taken directly across a receiver (RX) coil output.

The explanation is that the harmonic frequencies go through the capacitive coupling i.e. via a (low value) capacitor with an increasing amplitude because capacitive reactance (impedance) is inversely proportional to the frequency. So the higher the frequency the lower the capacitive reactance becomes, so the less extent it attenuates the harmonic amplitudes.   

And you need to add to this another fact as you mentioned: the TX and RX resonant LC circuit combination constitutes a mutually coupled two pole band pass filter with an increased selectivity, hence the harmonic levels are inherently attenuated in a higher degree than they are by the TX LC circuit alone, the latter can be considered as a single pole band pass filter.

To check the harmonic levels in the TX circuit alone, the Spectrum Analyzer ought to be connected to a 50 Ohm tap on the TX coil, matching the resonant high impedance to the 50 Ohm input impedance of the analyzer. OF course, the 50 Ohm input impedance of the analyzer would be transformed into the TX LC circuit, reducing its loaded Q to a certain degree but that would still give more correct harmonic amplitude levels than the capacitive coupling does.

Your question:
        " So now is the question how to solve that dilemma? "

Well, the solution to this dilemma should come from the originator(s) of the idea of transferring power wirelessly by such setups, this is what I think. 
But in the video demonstration this dilemma was not even mentioned, maybe it is not considered a problem, so is it needed to solve? Even so the claim is COP >> 1 anyway, so no offense but does the dilemma matter?   

Gyula


Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #398 on: May 07, 2019, 12:27:04 AM »
AG;
I agree that there is such a thing as a non-linear inductance, and such a device usually has some type of saturating the ferrous core.
I would be very interested in such a non-linear air core inductor that is constructed of an air core alone without ferrous material.
If you insist on faffing around disrupting this thread please create or select one as such to do so.
It's simple, a coil within a coil controlled by circuitry thus can be made to behave in a none linear manner.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 08:30:41 AM by AlienGrey »

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #398 on: May 07, 2019, 12:27:04 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #399 on: May 07, 2019, 02:33:31 AM »
AG ....one of the wonderful things about a moderated topic ...is the ability to keep it neat and move interesting off topic  discussions to another thread.
If Your contribution above has some relevance to a possible gain mechanism or some as yet unspoken value to experimenters here ?? IMO it would need more investigation , and I am grateful that someone would take the time to investigate this and share with the community ?

Grumage  feel free to remove this post




Offline itsu

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #400 on: May 07, 2019, 10:43:05 AM »


This is not my thread, it was opened by Tinman some time ago, so i am also a guest here.
But i understand the need to sometimes deviate from the topic at hand to clear up some misunderstandings.
No problems with that Vortex1.


But AG, there should NEVER be a reason to battle each other with animated gifs etc.,   never.



Gyula, 

thanks for the heads up, you are right considering the Spectrum Analyzer measurements i did, kind of
compare apples with pears.

If the harmonics pose a problem here is not clear to me either, but as long as COP > 1 it could be.


Itsu


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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #400 on: May 07, 2019, 10:43:05 AM »
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Offline seaad

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #401 on: May 07, 2019, 11:56:18 AM »
The harmonics pose only a problem when we are aiming for our first milestone; to reach COP 1 on our "journey" here. (my aim above)
Now present COP is below 0.2
But if we already have COP>2 some "evaporated" harmonics doesn't matter much, of course.

Regards Arne

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #402 on: May 07, 2019, 12:23:31 PM »
This post is off topic,  sorry for that.

Hi AlienGrey,
I kindly ask you to look into the mirror sometimes, mainly before writing certain messages. Otherwise the Trollmeter swings full scale for you. 

See here for instance what you wrote to Itsu: "Hmm, hows your formula knowledge and maths?"
https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg533756/#msg533756 

And as it turns out from my reply to you, it was you who approached the resonance frequency calculation for an LC circuit from reactance calculations point of view for L and C which is also ok but a side step instead of using the Thomson formula directly. What is more, Itsu has shown his knowledge for years (also in LC circuits) so that you were rather unpolite to him by posing that question.

And when you answered to me, you then asked a totally off topic question, (post #274) which I did answer and you did not even thank the answer.  (But this is no problem for me, not the reason I write this post.)

Here is another strange post from you #302:
https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg533836/#msg533836

"Hi, 3 pages back re Rick F and his fancy 50 dollar 157uhry coils one guy finds a junk RC calculator that ets a 100uf cap to resonate at 1 khz, is that a joke or what ?"
 
I went 3 pages back but found no posts that included 100 uF cap to resonate at 1 kHz so asked you to give reply number that included it.

As an answer, you highlighted this text from benfr's post #260:
 " III. send a SQUARE frequency of 863 KHZ at 11 to 15 volts at x and y points.
the frequency can be approximately deduced from well established formulaes, for instance :
https://goodcalculators.com/resonant-frequency-calculator/ " and you added: you were trying to find out how Itsu got his 90 deg phase shift. Then found that and thought that can't be right. then tried to reverse logic what that Rick F was up to and got really confused. "

Well, there was no 100 uF cap and 1 kHz frequency written in benfr's post.

By the way, it is okay that originally you wanted to figure out from Itsu scope shot (shown in his post 289) why the 90 degree phase shift happened between the voltage waveforms (the answer is the voltage across a cap always leads 90 degree wrt the generator voltage).

No offense intended, and I will continue to answer your posts if I can, if they are stricly technical and relevant to a given topic.

Gyula

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #403 on: May 07, 2019, 12:43:32 PM »
Quote
Your real world testing agrees with my simulations of your setup in LTSpice.
Look, everyone has it...

And I use a little Multisim11.0    is it much worse?

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Confirmation of OU devices and claims
« Reply #404 on: May 07, 2019, 03:43:43 PM »
This post is off topic,  sorry for that.

Hi AlienGrey,
I kindly ask you to look into the mirror sometimes, mainly before writing certain messages. Otherwise the Trollmeter swings full scale for you. 
If you look at what the guy is saying he wants to make an argument over my post and asks me for proof with photographs and input and output graphs and all sorts technical jargin, that's when it's Trolling I just don't have the time to wast. that is Trolling in my book.


See here for instance what you wrote to Itsu: "Hmm, hows your formula knowledge and maths?"
https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg533756/#msg533756 

And as it turns out from my reply to you, it was you who approached the resonance frequency calculation for an LC circuit from reactance calculations point of view for L and C which is also ok but a side step instead of using the Thomson formula directly. What is more, Itsu has shown his knowledge for years (also in LC circuits) so that you were rather unpolite to him by posing that question.
Was it, I certainly wasn't aware I had upset Itsu, if I have it was totally unintentional I can assure you and Itsu.

And when you answered to me, you then asked a totally off topic question, (post #274) which I did answer and you did not even thank the answer.  (But this is no problem for me, not the reason I write this post.)
Yes, you did answer thank you, as I was after a quick cheap way of getting a 50/50 square wave which I made up, unfortunately, it did not produce a square wave something more like 40/60 which was of no use, I just didn't have the time as I had to keep searching and testing for an answer. Wich I did in the end of another unlikely user on another thread. Thanks anyway.

Here is another strange post from you #302:
https://overunity.com/17491/confirmation-of-ou-devices-and-claims/msg533836/#msg533836

"Hi, 3 pages back re Rick F and his fancy 50 dollar 157uhry coils one guy finds a junk RC calculator that ets a 100uf cap to resonate at 1 khz, is that a joke or what ?"
Yes I agree, that's it was originally pointed to it and why I queried it.
 
I went 3 pages back but found no posts that included 100 uF cap to resonate at 1 kHz so asked you to give reply number that included it.

As an answer, you highlighted this text from benfr's post #260:
 " III. send a SQUARE frequency of 863 KHZ at 11 to 15 volts at x and y points.
the frequency can be approximately deduced from well-established formulas, for instance :
https://goodcalculators.com/resonant-frequency-calculator/ " and you added: you were trying to find out how Itsu got his 90 deg phase shift. Then found that and thought that can't be right. then tried to reverse logic what that Rick F was up to and got really confused. "

Well, there was no 100 uF cap and 1 kHz frequency written in benfr's post.
Well, thats strange as I can go straight to it with the pointer I gave you on my machine!


By the way, it is okay that originally you wanted to figure out from Itsu scope shot (shown in his post 289) why the 90 degree phase shift happened between the voltage waveforms (the answer is the voltage across a cap always leads 90 degrees wrt the generator voltage).
That only works on caps and resistance if you try it with caps and inductance you won't get the same result and I can't find any equation for such a setup.

No offense intended, and I will continue to answer your posts if I can if they are strictly technical and relevant to a given topic.

Gyula
Thanks Gyula, but isn't this thread suppose to be about, Confirmation of OU devices and claims, therefore I was merely asking originally a question with some humor. Any way likewise and thanks for the input. I will file it in the black filing cabinet with all the other junk  ;D ;D
Regards AG

 

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