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Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 25503 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2017, 07:15:33 PM »
Magluvin,

You are going a bit nuts, don't you think?  For starters, I had nothing to do with Brad's question.  I asked Carroll in PM if he would post my analysis.  I wasn't going to send it to him without a response from him first.

On more time, your behaviour in posting private PMs in public without asking for my permission was and is unethical.  I called you out on doing it the previous time in the first posting of the thread in a PM a few days ago, and here you are doing it again.

Going back to Brad's questions, I actually posted about the capacitor and ignition timing before Brad even posted his questions.

Here is the quote from post #47, <<< What I learned was the size of the capacitor will affect the ignition timing because the cap accepts the initial inrush of current when the points open and then reaches a voltage point where the current flow stops/the plasma ignites so obviously a larger capacitor will delay the onset of the ignition spark. >>>

So in response to Brad's queries, when you remove the capacitor then the spark plugs fire immediately when the points open and with the capacitor in place the spark plugs fire a few milliseconds after the points open.  So that's why you get the erratic engine running and the backfiring through the carburetor.  And if you replace a bad condenser with a new one that is twice the size in microfarads, that will delay the spark firing even further and mess up the timing of the engine.  I am not an engine person but I will assume that you don't get a plasma spark when the points close in a car engine because the spark has to jump two gaps to ignite the plasma, the spark plug itself and the distributor.  So that's something like 30,000 volts.

As far as your wild rant about the resonance issue goes, well here goes:  I wrote up my analysis completely "cold" without having read anything.  I thought that the secondary was so strong in its HV potential that it ignited the spark plasma right away, even before the capacitor charged up.  If this was the case then the points wold be safe. Then I found out that I was completely wrong.  In hindsight, it was even dumb because I failed to think about the fact that the capacitor was a legitimate path for the coil to keep the current flowing.  So I went online to check into the resonance issue and at the same time I was learning more about the ignition process and the ignition timing.  So what I learned was when the points open, you don't get the ignition spark right away because current flows into the capacitor at first and this delays the onset of the plasma ignition.  Duh!  By the time the primary hits about 300 volts, the secondary is at about 30,000 volts and that is enough voltage to bridge two spark gaps and ignite two instances of plasma.  In your test setup, something similar would happen but with the single spark gap.  I did all of my research and shared my results in postings and learned stuff in the process.  And at this point I think I could even do a preliminary timing diagram for your test setup - but you never ever do timing diagrams, do you?

When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate.  The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance.  And I know that when an inductor discharges into a plasma, essentially all of the energy stored in the inductor is drained away in one shot.  And that is fundamentally what the ignition of a spark plug is, and that's why I said there was no resonance.

And you and Carroll both basically said, "there is an LC and that's what LCs do, they resonate."  So you and Carroll were also dead wrong.  You thought that there was a big LC ring-down from the get-go making the plasma spark.  It's not the case, what happens from what I can see from my current perspective is that while the secondary is doing the continuous DC plasma burn, the primary stays at high  potential and then when the main burn is over the energy in the cap does an innocuous ring-down to dissipate the remaining energy in the cap with no plasma generation.  There is your "resonance" that you didn't have a clue about (just like me) and now you are trying to hitch a ride on that but in reality it has nothing to do with your original one-liner "explanation" for how the circuit operates.

I posted in good faith and I learned some stuff during my research.  There are some very relevant questions posted at the end of my technical postings that would shed a lot of light into things if you followed through on them.  There are some very simple tests that I suggested the possibility of that could answer some very basic questions.  But I did not say what the simple tests would be, I want to see if you can come up with your own tests to follow through.  In other words, no "paint by numbers" experimenting - come up with some tests yourself.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2017, 07:36:31 PM »
Oh yeah, and as far as me being an "anti-resonance shill" goes or "someone is paying me" goes, that has nothing to do with me and says a lot about you.  It feels like we are on our way towards another "fail" doesn't it?  You yourself brought up the question about the ignition circuit and the capacitor to me, and as of yet we have no data from you, just some "show and don't tell" observational clips.  You claim that you are going to show some real data on Sunday, and all that I can say is bring it on.  After all, it would be a miracle if an experiment could be performed and come to a successful conclusion with everybody understanding what is taking place and everybody being on the same page.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2017, 09:06:54 PM »
Brad thanks for filling in the numbers to what I described. That makes it very clear....
The Tesla circuit it truly multifunctional and STILL VERY USEFULL  today in our internal
combustion engines.

Its too bad we have to have all this other distraction discussion.

Norman

Brad said

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?..

First thing to do,would to be to look at the ignition coil,which is just a transformer--what is it's rated output voltage?
Most are between 30,000-40,000 volt's
So,the average supply voltage(battery voltage) when an engine is running,is around 14.4 volts.
Lets say our coil is one of the 30,000 volt one's.
The average turn ratio in an ignition coil is around 100:1

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.-->Remember,we are talking about normal transformer voltage produced here,and not flyback voltage produced across the secondary--which is where the 30,000 volts comes from.

Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm
It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc within the environment of the engine cylinder  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Ok norman. He describes in detail that there can be a spark when the points connect. This is not when the spark happens.  Try it. Cap or no cap, 14.4v, 12vin or even 7vin. You will never get a spark at the plug when the contacts close like brad described. Cannot happen. So if there were this spark when the switch closes, the cap would not do anything in the circuit to stop that spark brad is talking about, because the switch is shorting the cap when the switch is closed.  So it is not correct. Not at all. Just try and find the info brad presented on the net.  You will not find that explanation anywhere. Because it does not occur ever when the contacts close. Never.

Brads post was all a fabrication of imagination, and I dont believe it was his fabrication, I believe MH gave him the explanation to post. Brad is too sharp for that I believe. I dont know why brad even posted it, whether it was his own words or MHs. Just dont know why.

And if the ballast resistor is in series with the primary, there would only be 6-7v across the primary when the switch closes not 14.4v.  So in his 100:1 transformer, the transformer action would only provide 699-700v at the secondary, not 1440v like he said.   Its all wrong bud, from beginning to end all wrong. 

I was running the coil in my 2 vids with a 12v battery direct without a ballast resistor and there was no sparks when the switch closes, let alone a very weak spark that the gap i had for showing the spark had to be within only a mm  to happen when the switch opens without the cap installed. And that only happens when the contacts open and there is a very quick field collapse after the contacts open, and never happens when we just first close the contact for the primary field to first build. Never happens, not even at 14.4v input while the car is running, and surely not at 12.8v battery when trying to start, and it wouldt even be 12.8v during the engine start period, because the starter motor pulls that 12.8v down even further while cranking.  His story is absolutely not true.  You can count on that Norman. ;)

I did a lot of thinking and writing here last night.  All of it, making sure it was all as accurate as my tired eyes could see. Almost 11hrs straight. Why?  Well being brads explanation was just as bad as MHs explanation, it all needed to be said for the record. Im simply astonished that brad would post such a thing.  Look it over.  Brads is all wrong for the explanation of the cap function. MHs explanation for the cap is all wrong. I felt like Al Pacino.  Your out of order! And your out of order! Your all out of order!! lol And Im right to say so. ;)

I dare anyone else to step up to the plate and defend either NHs or brads explanations. I will beat that challenge up and down these pages again and again, with just words alone. ;)

Mags


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2017, 09:06:54 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2017, 10:24:24 PM »
Brad said a few messages back.

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.--

And I missed that. I was enamered by the numbers that he plugged in and overlooked the CLOSE word.

I think Mags is partly right and partly wrong. A rising voltage could cause induction and 100 x 14.4 when the
magnetic field builds up and 1440 may jump the gap but the most spark will come  when the points
open and the backemf has more than 14.4 to put into the cap and then the secondary more than 1440 each time
after when it recycles back and forth till the voltage drops and the spark cannot jump the gap anymore.

We'll get this wikipedia thing right soon.

Norman

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2017, 11:26:36 PM »
Brad said a few messages back.

So in a transformer sense,100 x 14.4 would give us a voltage of 1440v at the secondary when the points close.--

And I missed that. I was enamered by the numbers that he plugged in and overlooked the CLOSE word.

I think Mags is partly right and partly wrong. A rising voltage could cause induction and 100 x 14.4 when the
magnetic field builds up and 1440 may jump the gap but the most spark will come  when the points
open and the backemf has more than 14.4 to put into the cap and then the secondary more than 1440 each time
after when it recycles back and forth till the voltage drops and the spark cannot jump the gap anymore.

We'll get this wikipedia thing right soon.

Norman

Im not gettig where you think Im part wrong. I do not agree with anything of brads explanation except the 100:1 ratios, and some are different. But that 100:1 will work here


Wikipedia is not a source that I trust on all things

If resonance gives a gain as i claim, then why are these 2 guys coming up with circuits to dispute that resonance even exists, and the circuits they use to do so are so flawed that they wont work as they say it does, and I have proved that for both to the T.  So why cant they explain why the resonance doesnt exist with an actual circuit explanation that ACTUALLY WORKS????? Think man!   Mh will use anything and everything to instill into the readers minds that resonance does not even exist in the circuit let alone that there is a gain to be had.  Why?  Because this is his job. He is the disinformation man. OU does not exist.  And he is trying to discredit my claim with everything in the book to try and ensure that the readers do not take what i say seriously.  He is the Monsanto of free energy. Monsanto is trying to rid the world of organic God made foods and say their gmo is better, when it its not. It has major porblems. If you dont know what Im talking about then i suggest you dig into the subject for the safety of you and yours. Mh is the same for any claims of free energy and the components there of that could get us free energy, like resonance and the gains I claim it gives for one..

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2017, 11:26:36 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2017, 11:52:25 PM »
Ok, I give up. We are down to semantics, nitpicking and dotting the i's....

With my understanding and some posts that add to my understanding I have a more
complete and satisfactory understanding - so don't confuse me with either the facts or
the truth.

Not really. I will listen but a little more lightly on this subject.

Norman

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2017, 12:02:16 AM »
Ok, I give up. We are down to semantics, nitpicking and dotting the i's....

With my understanding and some posts that add to my understanding I have a more
complete and satisfactory understanding - so don't confuse me with either the facts or
the truth.

Not really. I will listen but a little more lightly on this subject.

Norman

lol ok norman  I wont explain anything to you directly again.

So Id prefer if you just read rather than post. Its not helping anything especially if you dont understand the foundations of how the circuit works.

So like you said, just listen, how ever lightly you wish. I wont notice either way

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2017, 12:02:16 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2017, 01:22:02 AM »
 author=Magluvin link=topic=17482.msg512317#msg512317 date=1509155591]



Quote
Well I suppose that it was just coincidence that you happened by to approve MHS posts(2 out of 3 of them at first, then a bit later approving the 3rd one, that happened to be in between the first approved initially). That has me thinking he asked you to do so. And then said"hey you forgot one!! ::) ::) Like super man you appear, after what you say "I hardly ever get on the forums anymore anyway."  Just sayin.... ::)
Do as you wish. It is your responsibility here now. Im out on the moderation thing in this whole topic. Its all yours. Do as you will... Or is it Mhs will...

Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it.

Quote
First thing I see, Is you come here as some authority on this, claiming that you havnt seen anyone fully describe the circuit yet. Well then if you are really 'in the know' about these ignition systems as they really should be, then 'you should know' that there is suppose to be a ballast resistor in series with the primary which would bring the actual coil voltage down to 6-7v, not this 14.4v as you clearly state here.  So you dont know what your talking about either. ;) Otherwise you would clearly know that the voltage across the coil could never be 14.4v as you stated it should be. And then you do some 100:1 calculations and so on.   ::) The only thing you got right there was the 100 to 1 ratio. Thats not hard to find in a quick search....

First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.

Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM.

Quote
So what kind of alternators do you guys have down under that 14.4v is an average supply voltage?  Most that I see are 14v and under, closer to 13.5v. Have not seen any that do above 15v(unless it is a special after market unit that gives that), what you would say here, above average voltage. ::) ::) Anyway, I just wonder. Maybe they are that way there.. ill look it up 'to see for myself'. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE

Quote
Now you say that when the switch closes and we are now putting 14.4 fantasy volts across the primary, and that the normal transformer would produce the also fantasy 1440v at the secondary output, AND then your "Most plug gaps are between 1 and 1.2mm", AND your "It takes 1000v per mm to form an arc", Then why does the spark not occur when the points close and only appear when the points open? ??? ??? ??? ?? Clearly you are stating that the gap in the spark plug is the proper distance of 1-1.2mm and that 1000v can jump 1mm and the sec develops 1440v that should be able to jump that gap of 1mm and even 1.2mm!!!  Did you read that?? Read it again!


I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it.

Quote
So ok. we will go with your professional opinion that the voltage across the primary is fantasy land 14.4v. If your still ok with that.. ??? ;)


I am.
https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html

Quote
lol  You do not know what you claim to know brad. Simple as that you do not know.  ;) ;) It is just MH bullshit from start to finish... Do you still stand buy all that you have said here? ??? ??

I do  :D

Quote
So dont ever come into MY thread and tell me how it is, acting as if I dont know, unless you really know what your talking about. Because I will tear it up with your own words just like I did with MH.

Well Mag's--you are having a bad day.

Seems like one of us know the operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

Quote
From what I just exposed of your supposed authoritative knowledge on this subject

What part did you expose exactly ?.

Quote
Your description is full of holes and far from complete as to ask that last question and and expect an answer based on the rest of your description. More MH handywork. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

As i said,i basically answered the question for you.
What ever happened to people using there own smarts ?.

Quote
Ever since you had the problems that occurred for you because of your presenting info on you rotary transformer, you appear to be someone else now. You are not the same guy I once respected here before all that. I dont know exactly what happened then, but I do know some. But what ever it was and however hard it hit you, you are a different guy now.  Since then I have seen you do this same thing you have done here in your post. You barge in and slap down some stuff that just aint right at all and say its conclusive, move along folks, nothing more to see here. And I truly believe your conversations here on this would end on that note if I hadnt put you in your place just now..

Sorry brad, but it is what it is..

But you did not put me in my place Mag's,as all that i quoted was correct,from the purpose of the ballast resistor,and the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

As far as the RT go's--that is best left dead and buried.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2017, 01:24:44 AM »
I see your post waiting for approval MH. You will have to wait for your side kick brad to approve your posts from now on.  Im not really interested in your bullshit side winder talk any longer. So sit and wait for your buddy to come to your beck and call.   Im done here with you.  Clearly a waste of time putting this thread up for your twisting of reality as you have shown in your description of this circuit..

Mags

What you can do Mags,is stop accusing me of doing shit i have not done.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2017, 01:24:44 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2017, 01:26:59 AM »
One thing i am going to do here in MY thread daily, starting tomorrow, is post the links to MHs and brads descriptions and the links to my replys after the fact. Just so they dont get lost in the mess you are using to cover those up as people forget soon enough. Right M?? 8) Well Im going to keep reminding the readers, every day... And if Brad moderates ME because of it? I will have a nice discussion on this with Stefan and get brad off of moderation here. With all the facts of what is going on, Im sure I can make that happen.  ;)

I have made screen shots of the posts and page saves that i talk about above. So if brad does a hilary clinton and 'wipes' the thread of all that, I still have the proof that it existed.. I take that idea from Tk. He does that also, and some others.

Mags

Wow Mag's,this is like being in the twilight zone--WTF

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2017, 01:33:51 AM »
I was going to save this in case there is a rebuttal to my reply to brad..  But I just cant contain it any longer  ;D ;D ;D ;D   See I do this stuff, like leaving out the balast resistor functions of basically cutting the battery voltage in half for the primary, not commenting on this what I present below of the part of brads post I didnt cover in my reply, so that when the discussion goes on, I have ultimate ammo for my later posts and destroy the target. Ive been doing that for years here and it works very well..   Its not unfair that I do so. Its smart.  If others like Mh and in this case brad, wants to do technical knowledge battle on this field, then I will use this strategy and their own words to beat them..  Truly i dont wish for these battles. But they do occur for many of us.. So take that as a piece of advice when you are arguing something you really know about and someone disputes it. If they do have it all wrong, you will win the battle with these 2 strategical technical battle methods every time. ;) ;)

Notice i didnt say anything to this in brads post....

"Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."


This is the reason for the question that is in the end of brads post.....

"What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?"

What he is trying to imply is that there would be a spark when the points close.  Again,  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?

This has MH all over it to make up a fantasy reason for the cap to say it does something other than help give resonance to the system just like Mh did in his first post!!  Exactly the same motive!! MH splattered all over it. ;) Follow me hear....

The statement was  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the 'timing' be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."

All to suggest that there would be a spark when the points close for the reasons brad described later in the post. He is saying specifically about the timing advance as if the spark did occur when the switch closed, it would be sparking way before the compression stroke completes.. Well then, how does the cap solve that issue if the cap is shorted by the closed points switch? ??? ??  That is what the questions answer is suppose to conclude, that the cap helps in some way to prevent this spark when the contacts close and the secondary 'supposedly' gives a spark!!!!.. ;) ;) ;)   Huge fail and MH has his twisting little finger prints all over it and still cant get it right trying to do so just like in his first post here that I approved for discussion.  And then I destroyed him. lol ;D

Those in the know of this circuit should agree 110%. 

Brad, the only way out of this mess is to admit that MH came up with the whole thing and you posted it as your own thoughts.  I know that you 'should' know better than this..   ;)   So here is your chance at an out here..  How do I know that MH came up with that twisted concoction?  Ive been here for 10 years and had a 'Lot' of experience dealing with him twisting things so badly that I just tear it up with his own words just like I did with your post and with his post.  It has his "the cap cannot oscillate with the primary no way no how" all over it just like his earlier description...By way of misdirection. By way of diversion tactics.... I would bet my membership here on this.. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

But brad, if your sticking to your post as is, then Ill be waiting for your reply to explain it some how some way to make it right without changing anything.  Been here for what few hours now, rereading and rereading it all including my reply to be absolutely positive on this..  I got it right and you simply do not know what your talking about period. And that is sad if it is so..

Mags

Well Mag's,it looks like your ammo backfired this time,as the running voltages and explanation of the ballast resistors operation in the circuit is correct.

Im really not sure what has happened to you,but you are way of the mark with !all! your accusations toward me-like teaming up with MH-->really :o


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2017, 01:33:51 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2017, 01:35:27 AM »
And Brad, if you delete any of these posts before WE discuss it with Stefan in order to let him be the judge if need be, I will show stefan my page saves as full evidence that this crap is going on.
I promise you that.

Mags

As i said--i have not approved or deleted any posts in this thread--nor will i do so.

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2017, 01:53:12 AM »
Im not gettig where you think Im part wrong. I do not agree with anything of brads explanation except the 100:1 ratios, and some are different. But that 100:1 will work here


Wikipedia is not a source that I trust on all things

If resonance gives a gain as i claim, then why are these 2 guys coming up with circuits to dispute that resonance even exists, and the circuits they use to do so are so flawed that they wont work as they say it does, and I have proved that for both to the T.  So why cant they explain why the resonance doesnt exist with an actual circuit explanation that ACTUALLY WORKS????? Think man!   Mh will use anything and everything to instill into the readers minds that resonance does not even exist in the circuit let alone that there is a gain to be had.  Why?  Because this is his job. He is the disinformation man. OU does not exist.  And he is trying to discredit my claim with everything in the book to try and ensure that the readers do not take what i say seriously.  He is the Monsanto of free energy. Monsanto is trying to rid the world of organic God made foods and say their gmo is better, when it its not. It has major porblems. If you dont know what Im talking about then i suggest you dig into the subject for the safety of you and yours. Mh is the same for any claims of free energy and the components there of that could get us free energy, like resonance and the gains I claim it gives for one..

Mags

First up mag's,i have never said that you are incorrect about resonance--we leave that till later.

I said that the condenser has many roles to play,and asked about just one of those rolls.

What i have said has been correct--
The voltage of a vehicles  electrical system is around 14.4 volt's
And the ballast resistors roll is to lower the L/R time constant,to allow for higher operational frequencies-->higher RPM.

I guess it's time to throw together a points ignition system,and see what we have--Yea?.


Brad

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2017, 02:40:04 AM »
author=Magluvin link=topic=17482.msg512317#msg512317 date=1509155591]



Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it.

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.

Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE


 

I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it.
 

I am.
https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html

I do  :D

Well Mag's--you are having a bad day.

Seems like one of us know the operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

What part did you expose exactly ?.

As i said,i basically answered the question for you.
What ever happened to people using there own smarts ?.

But you did not put me in my place Mag's,as all that i quoted was correct,from the purpose of the ballast resistor,and the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

As far as the RT go's--that is best left dead and buried.


Brad

"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. ;) It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r  When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is ways off of when it should spark. Your talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burns, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  There will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

Can you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that says there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark. ;)

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right? Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that spark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.   ;)   Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well? ???    If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad? ???

Mags
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 05:11:12 AM by Magluvin »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2017, 03:24:00 AM »
Im glad you dont disagree with the resonance Brad.  Do you agree we attain a gain in eff of in and out with this resonance? Pin should not really change cap or no cap. But with the cap we definitely get more out thus an efficiency gain.

That is my whole point. I really could care less if the points burn in 7 switchings or remains clean forever, or whether the piston has a hole in it. The gain is had by way of resonance.  My setup was direct battery just as shown in the 2 circuit examples MH posted, so I did it that way, and the results just by viewing the spark are apparent right away. We can say more with the cap. But MH refuses the resonance claim. Resonance is what this topic is all about and if he wants to show that resonance is not there, I will let him do that till he runs out of ideas before i show him the scope shots, mostly because Im tired of him sayin I dont know anything and he knows it all. Well I let him screw up time after time to show his so called circuit analysis skills are really bunk and we should know this if he is going to pretend to be what he is not. If someone tell you the wrong stuff all the time would you not want someone to tell you about it if you didnt really know for yourself? there are a lot of people here that just take things for what is said. It is discouraging. Im here for the real ou search. Im here to tell my end of it and not just keep it to myself. MHs posts are a LOT of what cant be done more than what can be done. I have issue with that because just here in this thread it shows and is bad in a way that he makes up stuff, and his analysis is bad. I cant let the readers fall for that. just as I cant let the readers believe in this spark brad speaks of as truth, because it isnt.

I was a bit caught up with the timing of your post brad and the timing of MHs posts being approved within a couple hours of your post, And then your post of the cap removed lets this switch on spark being wrong, unless you can explain it further the 'caps roll" thing better, I have to say that spark does not happen cap or not. It all had me thinking collisions with MH was there. So yeah I freaked out.  But I have to still say your post is not correct if the assumption is that there is a spark when the switch closes, cap or no cap.

Felt ganged up on a bit. Im dead serious on the resonance gain and if MH keeps trying to derail the resonance gain is false then I have to put out as much that it is and he puts out that it isnt.  Otherwise I may as well just go home or do other things than come here, put it out there and just let him make it all disappear just like that.


So Id like to see brads setup produce that switch on spark without the cap and goes away when the cap is present. That is the only way I would believe it. Ille set up right along side of him and try for myself. Thing is, the regular collapse spark is sooo weak, I cannot see the swiitch closure spark happening. And when I say cant see it, I mean I really I didnt see it. ;)   1mm gap, .5mm gap, .2mm gap.  No switch on spark occurs......

mags

 

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