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Author Topic: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....  (Read 36235 times)

Offline Jeg

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #150 on: November 01, 2017, 04:56:55 PM »
Hi Mags.
Thanks for the video.
What is cap's capacity?
Looks like switching frequency with cap's charging time plays some role on here. If you are able to use other switching method than a relay, one with a variable frequency capability, then i am pretty sure that efficiency will go higher. The best time is to fire when current (which charges the cap) reaches the zero level.

ps. If timing is right then diode is useless.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #151 on: November 01, 2017, 05:00:40 PM »
And Cifta, if your conclusion is that for there to be resonance, there would need to be 2 tuning forks, then does there need to be 2 tune ported speaker enclosures in order to call it resonance? Or can I just build 1 box for a sub in my car and call the gain i get by way of that tuned enclosure an effect of resonance? ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #152 on: November 01, 2017, 05:14:19 PM »
Hi Mags.
Thanks for the video.
What is cap's capacity?
Looks like switching frequency with cap's charging time plays some role on here. If you are able to use other switching method than a relay, one with a variable frequency capability, then i am pretty sure that efficiency will go higher. The best time is to fire when current (which charges the cap) reaches the zero level.

ps. If timing is right then diode is useless.

The diode is just to be sure as I just wanted to make the process work the first time not knowing if the same timing I was using in the standard circuit used for direct comparison purposes was a good match for the same freq switching. Not looking to design it for a specific engine to provide spark, it is just demonstrations of resonance gains compared to no resonance. That has been the point of this thread since i said so in post 1.

Firstly, the efficiency of Teslas circuit far exceeds the standard circuit and very simply by rearranging the circuit slightly and the addition of a large inductor.  I thought it was very cool to show what Tesla was doing with this back then, and then to see they abandoned it for this current sucking standard we have been talking about here in this thread. And it also is about resonance here in this topic.


Tha cap is .14uf. I think it could change things with a different cap value, but again I wanted to demonstrate that it would work here as well as in the standard circuit. Same cap. Same spark coil. Same battery and same switching. Just the addition of the large inductor and the diode..

The standard circuit pulls 78w from the battery when the switch is closed, and the igniter circuit pulls max 3w and change.  Huge efficiency gain by the circuit change alone, let alone still having resonance in the picture.

Mags

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #152 on: November 01, 2017, 05:14:19 PM »
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Offline Jeg

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #153 on: November 01, 2017, 05:30:11 PM »

The standard circuit pulls 78w from the battery when the switch is closed, and the igniter circuit pulls max 3w and change.  Huge efficiency gain by the circuit change alone, let alone still having resonance in the picture.

Mags

Nice point Mags. Simple and straight. ;)

Just for the records, with same components you need about 440 hertz of switching frequency. Relay looks like it switches close to 5 hz.

A damped wave is a composite wave, consisting of harmonically associated waves of proper amplitude.

Couldn't be expressed better. thanks

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #154 on: November 01, 2017, 05:54:08 PM »


Just for the records, with same components you need about 440 hertz of switching frequency. Relay looks like it switches close to 5 hz.



Well if it were an 8cyl engine.  Idle rpm of 1000 revolutions per minute. Divide by 60 seconds would be 16.6 rotations per second.  Now we have a 4 stroke, so there are only 4 firings per rotation. so 4 times 16 is 66 spark events per second, not 440 as you say.

Mags

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #154 on: November 01, 2017, 05:54:08 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #155 on: November 02, 2017, 12:19:45 AM »
The diode is just to be sure as I just wanted to make the process work the first time not knowing if the same timing I was using in the standard circuit used for direct comparison purposes was a good match for the same freq switching. Not looking to design it for a specific engine to provide spark, it is just demonstrations of resonance gains compared to no resonance. That has been the point of this thread since i said so in post 1.

Firstly, the efficiency of Teslas circuit far exceeds the standard circuit and very simply by rearranging the circuit slightly and the addition of a large inductor.  I thought it was very cool to show what Tesla was doing with this back then, and then to see they abandoned it for this current sucking standard we have been talking about here in this thread. And it also is about resonance here in this topic.


Tha cap is .14uf. I think it could change things with a different cap value, but again I wanted to demonstrate that it would work here as well as in the standard circuit. Same cap. Same spark coil. Same battery and same switching. Just the addition of the large inductor and the diode..

The standard circuit pulls 78w from the battery when the switch is closed, and the igniter circuit pulls max 3w and change.  Huge efficiency gain by the circuit change alone, let alone still having resonance in the picture.

Mags

2 things Mag;s

1-how would this Tesla circuit go in the higher frequencies?

2-i think you would be surprised at how little power the old points circuit actually uses at running frequencies,and with the dwell set correctly .

Brad

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #156 on: November 02, 2017, 02:41:09 AM »
2 things Mag;s

1-how would this Tesla circuit go in the higher frequencies?

2-i think you would be surprised at how little power the old points circuit actually uses at running frequencies,and with the dwell set correctly .

Brad

hey brad

I dont know really. Gas engines of the time probably didnt have much high rpms like we have in later years. 

And probably at specific rpms the standard can be more eff due to the time it gets for the 5.7mh primary to load up when the contacts are closed.  But it needs to be able to work in the upper end which wouldnt be cruising speeds rpms where the switch on time probably exceeds the time for the primary to reach max currents. We need good operation more in the upper rpms so there is probably enough head room for that..

bah. Im just saying that in the case of the 2 circuits running the same cap, coil and battery, and same switch and timing,and just the addition of the large inductor and diode with a little circuit rearrangement, there was a monster boost in eff. If we were to use the idea for an OU device some how, maybe it would only need to operate at a freq that works best for the project and not have to be able to follow all the criteria to run an engine in a car.  It was all about the topic, resonance. It wasnt about all this.  All this is interesting, but I have other goals with these ideas, otherwise Id be hangin out at garage forums.  It was just an example and has taken up way too much time with too much about a lot of other things that Im not really concerned with to prove anything any further.

I mean we have Carrol disputing that the ring in an lc is not the definition of resonance, Jeg talking about how the switching needs to be 440hz.  Im like oh yeah?  At what rpm and how many cyl engine are you talking about? ??? Heck maybe my circuit is running near a freq that would be during cranking, what? 400, 600rpms? maybe its a 4cyl my freq would be close to under those circumstances.  lol I just liked the fact that we could see the on and off periods of the spark to see the multi spark action in that time frame so Mh could not dispute the fact. If it were just some dc HV stream during the spark period, then there wouldnt be multiple arcs. It would be a snake swinging back and forth as you can see on some yt vids. Nst output for example.

Ugh.  Im tired of it already.  Maybe most everyone could care less about all this. I put a lot of hours in here and the projects. making sure its all good for vids. Pics. Typing day in and day out.

All I wanted beyond the other day was to understand how the cap prevents the switch on spark your second post seemed to imply. But I dont get an answer to that, I just get questions in return.  Not coming down on you, Im just tired now and its all just weighing on me a bit.

Frankly if nobody gets anything from this thread, then this is where we are in this place. Just feel when someone tries to show something that is good, it gets what happened here in this thread. More people in argument than are in agreement on anything. Its like how could i suggest someone come here to show their stuff if they say they have something when within a week or 2 the main subject is lost in the mess of it all.

Tired of it.

Night brad.

mags

Edited the 440hz as I had it as 440khz
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 08:01:24 PM by Magluvin »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #156 on: November 02, 2017, 02:41:09 AM »
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Offline Jeg

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #157 on: November 02, 2017, 02:10:55 PM »
Frankly if nobody gets anything from this thread, then this is where we are in this place. Just feel when someone tries to show something that is good, it gets what happened here in this thread. More people in argument than are in agreement on anything.

Hi Mags
If you feel that i disagreed on something, then it is probably the way i am expressing my opinion in a different language than what i use to talk. Sorry for that mate. You do a great job as always.

The 440Hz that i mentioned is just the calculated frequency between your cap and inductor. Nothing more and nothing less. I didn't mention any strokes or revolutions. Please forget what i wrote as my mood is far from disturbing the flow of conversations which take place here.  ;)

Keep it up
Jeg

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #158 on: November 02, 2017, 07:27:46 PM »
Hi Mags
If you feel that i disagreed on something, then it is probably the way i am expressing my opinion in a different language than what i use to talk. Sorry for that mate. You do a great job as always.

The 440Hz that i mentioned is just the calculated frequency between your cap and inductor. Nothing more and nothing less. I didn't mention any strokes or revolutions. Please forget what i wrote as my mood is far from disturbing the flow of conversations which take place here.  ;)

Keep it up
Jeg

Hey jeg

So this is where the diode came into play to hold the charge in the cap for discharge.

I believe Tesla sort of shows things in his drawiings as to how big or little a value of a cap in relation to the circuit. In the igniter circuit, the cap drawing seems large as compared to some of his other depictions of caps in other of his circuits. Like the Ozone pat, to me anyway, shows caps that would seem to be large in value also.

But here, again, I wanted to keep everything intact as to what was shown in the standard circuit and just rearrange the circuit just a bit and add the large inductance with diode to get the cap charged for discharge.  Yesterday I was thinking of going larger on the cap to see how the results might change. And I still have it all set up to do so. The end result in my mind would be lower voltage in the cap before discharge but more currents with each oscillation and most likely a hotter and longer spark time.


Anyway, I get where you are coming from now.  But again, it is set up to 'see' the on and off times.

Sorry for any confusion on my part there

Mags

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #158 on: November 02, 2017, 07:27:46 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #159 on: November 03, 2017, 09:02:38 AM »
Put in a 9.75uf cap that used to have an external resistor that I removed

Changed the relay cap from 1000uf to 220uf to speed up the switching

With the larger cap Im able to eliminate the diode and the switching is fast enough to load the cap in just one direction. Mechanical rectification of the currents from the large inductor to the cap.

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #160 on: November 03, 2017, 11:52:15 AM »
 author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512643#msg512643 date=1509697641]
Quote
Ignore this if you want.....




"If the rate at which the condensers are discharged is the same as that at which they are charged, then, clearly, in the assumed case the condensers do not come into play.  If the rate of discharge be smaller than the rate of charging, then, again, the condensers cannot play an important part.  But if, on the contrary, the rate of discharging is greater than that of charging, then a succession of russes of current is obtained."


End quote.


I am not satisfied that anyone has recognized the significance of this statement, and more importantly its relation to circuits built around the abrupt charging and discharging of a condenser.  From the statement in bold, we are informed of the relation which must be established between capacity and supply. 


As it stands, you all are looking at the wrong make break point with specific regard to the ignitor patent.  (same would be true if the discussion were  about the ozone patent, or any of the patents in that series and the series of patents which follow...)  If activity is incorrect there, it will be incorrect in the secondary.



Regards
[/quote]

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #160 on: November 03, 2017, 11:52:15 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #161 on: November 03, 2017, 02:19:09 PM »

.....


good luck with that collab you have with russ....  speaking of your collab... that waveform you showed with regards to the ozone circuit (and here again on this thread...) is wrong...but you knew that....  you are half way there when your wave is "perfectly" rectangular....keep at it...you'll get there....

And yet the system works just as Tesla said it dose--and i have even taken it further than that.

Quote
you have no idea how grateful I am that you find that quote worthless

I find it golden,as it clearly shows how little you know about the simple points ignition system--you got it completely ass about.

Perhaps using your brain before engaging Mr wisdom would have been a good idea  ;)

You seem to have forgotten that the inductor is a current source,and the condenser a current sink.
Maybe have another shot at it  ;)

My endeavour i am about to undertake with Russ,is so as i have some one else with the smarts that can replicate a system i built some years back,that clearly showed an energy gain.

I had the late MarkE do all the math,and we came out 15-18% in front

Unlike your !what ever it is!,this system is simple,easy to build,and cannot give back negative results if built correctly--and i dont mean trying to find some !special! type of TRIAC from the 1930's.

The average back yarder could build this system--even you might be able to Erfinder :D 

There will be no one here that will find fault with it,or be able to argue with the result's.

Oh,the 15 to 18% gain was just for the basic setup--we can go way beyond that  ;)

All those that harp on about drawing in energy from the environment--well now your going to see it happen for real.

You have your self a nice day  :D


Brad

P.S--did you want the budgie ?

Offline tinman

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #162 on: November 03, 2017, 03:58:03 PM »
 author=Erfinder link=topic=17482.msg512650#msg512650 date=1509715704]


Quote
What you're doing or have done is immaterial....the wave you demonstrated is wrong....

OK,so post the wave form Tesla posted.

Quote
I haven't been privileged to witness the character of your electrical discharge, but I am positive that it's wrong too...

Nor will you.
But seems that there is no need,as your clairvoyant psychic is running high.

Quote
If the wave is wrong, and the discharge is wrong, you got a farts chance in the wind of demonstrating a true mechanism for gain

Well,i guess it must be close enough,as i get a nice pink/purple/blue glow between the discharge plate's,and that wonderful smell of Ozone.

The mechanism for gain has nothing to do with this,or any type of electronic device.
The mechanism for gain has been built before,and is right here on this forum.
As i said,the late MarkE was doing all the calculation's,and confirmed the gain--much to his dislike.
But as the proof was all there,he had no choice but to crunch the numbers .

It's here on this forum--can you find it Erfinder  :D

Iam !hopefully!  joining forces with Russ,so as to have some one else on the other side of the planet,confirm my results,as we know,MarkE is no longer here,and no one else was taking part in the thread at the time.

But this time,it will be built to be looped--so no measurements will be needed.
And this time it will be built twice,at different places on the planet--just to rule out the effects of the barley grass that lies just beyond the black stump round here.  ;)

Offline penno64

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #163 on: November 03, 2017, 08:51:21 PM »
Hi Steve,

The only device I ever built that changed the output wave from sine to square was romerouk version of the generator.

Did not think much about that but ASSUMED it due to creating (generating) a voltage higher than the input voltage.

The scope would show a nice sine then once approaching the input voltage (12v in my case) and running speed, the output wave would go full square.

Probably nothing to do with what you are discussing but that's the only time I have seen this.

Keep meaning to rebuild this, but life gets in the way.

Regards, Pen

Offline Jeg

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Re: The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....
« Reply #164 on: November 04, 2017, 01:54:19 PM »

Sorry for any confusion on my part there


No worries mate. Misunderstandings are common in public forums.  :)



As it stands, you all are looking at the wrong make break point with specific regard to the ignitor patent.  (same would be true if the discussion were  about the ozone patent, or any of the patents in that series and the series of patents which follow...)  If activity is incorrect there, it will be incorrect in the secondary.


Gosh I was trying to find the connection between the two patents. I could see what happens at ozone device but not at the igniter. My mistake was that i assumed that igniter's switch completely isolates the primary from the other circuitry. But actually...it should really not. Primary always has to be a part to both charging-discharging actions and so in here... Damn Erfinder! In few posts here and there you revealed what Tesla was really doing. Don't have the words to express my appreciation.

ps. Mags accidentally achieved the right switching method, but until recognized, it can't be improved.

 

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