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### Author Topic: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws  (Read 59864 times)

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2018, 08:35:56 AM »
Dear Sir,
As per sketch if the long tube is mounted very near to fulcrum with 10 kg weight and counterweight(13kg) is mounted 1 meter from fulcrum then I think input energy will be less.
There is a spring based brake system to store the energy of counterweight as well as to provide it momentum.
So input energy will be only 30 Joule if counterweight is 13 kg.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2018, 11:20:39 PM »
I am having some issues with my test rigs

First: when the ball falls to the right, most of the weight is balanced
by the counterweight.
So the force it creates is very small.

Next:
When the ball falls to the left, it has more force but
We spend that by either compressing a spring or lifting the weight.
To get it back the other way.

Because the weight has moved, it becomes no longer balanced.

If we make the ball heavy on the right side,
and balanced on the left, so it resets itself
We spend energy to lift it from right to left.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2018, 11:24:23 PM »
Perhaps the standard “wheel analysis” is not valid here,
because it does not make a complete circle.

we might need to look at this from a perspective of ‘absolute height’

i.e.: ball initial height and ball final height
This would give a more accurate energy diagram

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2018, 09:36:31 AM »
I am having some issues with my test rigs

First: when the ball falls to the right, most of the weight is balanced
by the counterweight.
So the force it creates is very small.

Next:
When the ball falls to the left, it has more force but
We spend that by either compressing a spring or lifting the weight.
To get it back the other way.

Because the weight has moved, it becomes no longer balanced.

If we make the ball heavy on the right side,
and balanced on the left, so it resets itself
We spend energy to lift it from right to left.
Dear Sm0ky2 Sir,
See the sketch.if we use a lock mechanism under counterweight to prevent the falling of counterweight then the force will be increased very much but there will be no need of extra energy in the lock mechanism.
Second if we setup the device as per the sketch then there will be need of very less input .for example,if the entire mass of device is 25 kg then we will have to tilt it just 10 degree more so that the ball could fall down.
First lock mechanism and second rest position of device in this particular angle as per sketch.
If counterweight is also a ball in a tube then it will work to provide momentum due to impact of weight.
A spring will work to bounce back the device after hitting with counterweight side so that the device could get back it's initial position.
Thank you Sir.

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2018, 10:01:03 AM »
Dear Sir,
If the device is set at this angle in initial position then the input will be very minimal even if we calculate it's entire mass as there will be need of just 10 degree more to tilt it.
If the entire mass is 25 kg then input is  only 25 joule to tilt it 10 degree more.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2018, 11:09:40 AM »
I get what you are saying, and can see/feel the momentum
But won’t this be absorbed by compressing the spring?

falling ball compresses spring, spring pushes the ball back up

our 25 J is (partially) returned to us when it resets
But we have to put 25 J more do go another cycle.
So we lose part of the 25 J each time.

Like in your video, when you use your hand to lift it up.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2018, 11:12:26 AM »
It is a very strange way to transfer gravitational potential into momentum

But in experiments I am not able to achieve excess power, greater than the input.

I’m really curious now how a Chaos-Pendulum would perform,
if the weights were in tubes......

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2018, 05:11:41 PM »
Dear Sir,
We will have to use the absorbed energy in the spring to tilt the device.if we could use this absorbed energy then there will be no need of extra energy to tilt it  and device will sustain it's momentum.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2018, 06:38:26 PM »
Dear Sir,
We will have to use the absorbed energy in the spring to tilt the device.if we could use this absorbed energy then there will be no need of extra energy to tilt it  and device will sustain it's momentum.

Even if we perfectly balance momentum and springs
There is still friction and wind resistance.
even though the total change in (mgh) =0
I think it is the same as just spinning a wheel

It just seems mathematically confusing.
I was incorrect by using the wheel analysis
To use that, the weights must revolve a full circle
around the axis.

The lever analysis gives the correct answer.
Change in E is -

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2018, 06:40:11 PM »
Each time the ball moves, the center of gravity changes

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2018, 07:08:48 PM »
Dear Sir,
Each time center of gravity will be not changed due to counterweight.
Seethe sketch.as per sketch the arm length is 2 meter.a 2 meter long tube is mounted on the right side arm in middle.
A 10 kg ball is in rest position and a " latch pin" will work to hold the ball.the latch pin will work in this way that the ball will fall down as per our desire.counterweight is 16 kg.so now total weight of device is 26 kg.
There will be two lock system which will work to lock and unlock the device.
: The device will be in rest position as per Left side sketch.once ball falls down then it will turn like right side sketch.
: The wonder is that if the device's initial position is as per Left side sketch then there will be need of lifting uup the device only 1 cm.
: So now input will be only 2.6 Joule but output will be 200 Joule as ball is falling down from 2 meter height.
After falling down the device will be positioned like left sketch and there will be again need of just 2.6 Joule energy.
So input will be 2.6 Joule +1 Joule for lock mechanism.
Input=3.6 Joule
Now you will say that we will have to apply 3.6 Joule energy from outsource.
But not as you are forgetting that the ball has been stopped after transferring it's energy to a piston generator and this piston generator will work to generate energy to tilt the device again and again.

Though it will be a Oscillating device but main purpose is to get more output than input or overunity.

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2018, 07:11:38 PM »
The impact energy of ball will do two work.
First it will provide momentum through pushing the piston generator and second the generator will work to generate energy due to kinetic energy of ball.

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #87 on: February 04, 2018, 07:14:41 PM »
There are no issues like friction,heat air resistance in this mechanism as input is minimal and output is far greater in first effort.if first effort is providing overunity then it doesn't matter that it is Oscillating .
In this mechanism the ball is working to get overunity not the whole device.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2018, 07:24:17 PM »
Trying to simplify this so the math is more straightforward

Let us have a pendulum of the counterweight
So it hangs at bottom.

And the tube is to sit exactly at the pivot for the ball.
So that any motion left or right changes the ball

If there is extra energy, the ball will keep the pendulum moving.
and pendulum, in turn keeps the ball falling, tick-tock like a
self-powered clock.

#### vikram_gupta11

• Full Member
• Posts: 204
##### Re: Why this seesaw is working against physics laws
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2018, 04:49:56 AM »
Dear Sm0ky2 Sir,
You are correct it is like a self powered clock but what about input as input is very minimal(3.6 Joule) and kinetic energy of ball is 200 Joule.
There is a big difference between input and output.
As far as I think there is no need of calculating the energy at construction time .so we can get output as per our desire.
The device is getting back its initial position again so again input is 3.6 Joule and output 200 Joule.
We will have to extract impact energy of falling ball using generator .so the device will oscillate forever without extra energy.