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Author Topic: Multiphase Resonant Circuits  (Read 5364 times)

Offline sourcecharge

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Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« on: August 29, 2017, 08:22:59 AM »
Hi all,

I am working on >20 phase resonant circuits....
The reason is because there seems to be a discrepancy between b2spice and reality...
Think of it this way....
It two "phases" of a separate LC series resonant circuits that are in phase, are rectified from the output from a 100% (or close) square wave input, the output is twice as much....this corresponds to a ratio of the dissipation of the load to be 2.....very easy....
There is a second ratio that shows the number of phases to the actual output, and in this case, 1
But if there are multiple phases, like 5, and they are spread out evenly, than the ratio is not 2 but a lower number....(1.4)...from spice on both points...
The second ratio is <0.25
If there are 10 phases, spread out evenly, than the ratio is 2.4, and not 2.8....which would give OU......and the second ratio is <0.25...
But lets say the number of phases are infinite....
Then the phases would be soo close that the wave forms would almost overlap, so in real world settings...this would be like almost 2 phases that are in phase....another words the second ration would be 1...
Therefore I would get OU....
Here's the catch...20 phases is what I'm shooting for.....20 MPP cores (2inch 60u) all wound with about 250 Q measured (960 N), and about 120 Q under load....I have 1 made, but they are a pain in the ass to make....I even made a mold to section wind these things with my 3d printer using 28 awp polyimide wire...
It takes about 4 to 5 hours to make each of them and I am too lazy to make any more especially after I found the Q under load at 120 instead of 250 as calculation and test measurement showed....
IDK it might be the resistance of the dielectric of the coils (parasitic capacitance)

Anyways...If this works, i will be able to make coils that will work for any load due to the equations that I have found/made and are using today...


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Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« on: August 29, 2017, 08:22:59 AM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 03:54:01 PM »
Hi sourcecharge

Interesting ideal and I hope you will continue to build and test as it's rare to find researchers who actually build a test device let alone build and test someone else idea.

Looking forward to more and thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 06:02:03 PM »
Hi sourcecharge

Interesting ideal and I hope you will continue to build and test as it's rare to find researchers who actually build a test device let alone build and test someone else idea.

Looking forward to more and thanks for sharing

Luc
Thx
My research started with the assumption that b2spice was a "control"....
Using B2spice I have found the following equation regarding a series LC resonant circuit with an output measurement across the capacitor to ground:

Vp(out) = Vp(in) / (nkFCR)
n = the polarity number, 2 for AC positive and negative, and 4 or either positive or negative
k = wave form number, pi for sinusoidal input wave forms, and pi^2/4 for a 100% duty factor AC square wave
F = frequency (hz)
C = Capacitance (F)
R = total series resistance of the series resonant circuit, Including, ESR(cap), and of the coil, R(dc), R(ac), R(di), R(core)...not to mention the dc resistance of the mosfets and the connecting wire...
I actually have data points from B2spice giving the k factor at duty factors from 35% to 100% non grounded open square wave inputs
I also have the data points from B2spice giving the Power factor at duty factors from 35% to 100% non grounded open square wave inputs
80% PF b2spice at 100% duty factor, and 77% PF observed at 100% duty factor...
These data points allowed regression of the k factor and the calculation of the current at different duty factors using a square wave inputs...
Basically, I can engineer any output voltage using series resonant circuits with a required current for a load...
Now back to the "ratio"
The series resistance of the series LC resonant circuit is affected by a load that is across the capacitor to ground...as this is a parallel resistance it needs to be converted to series...usually this load output voltage peak can be reliably calculated at about 20% dissipation, any higher the equations fall apart..
When the resistance is calculated to a series resistance, it basically has a 1/x ratio when dealing with multiphase resonant circuits, that is what the first ratio is about...so the higher the number, the less the series resistance....which yields higher voltage output....
so if you reread the above, the idea is that after about 5 phases, the second ratio (the number of phases vs the first ratio) is always less than 25% or 0.25....but in a circuit with an infinite number of phases feeding the same load by rectification, the wave forms would realistically overlap as in the case of two series LC resonant circuits that are feeding the same load by rectification....therefore the second ratio, would increase towards 1....

Soo its been about 6 or 7 years since i had this idea, (been working alot and paying down debt) and I've never actually found a way to wind 20 cores all the same with high enough Qs to actually matter duing that time....

Multiphase equations show that coils with Qs of >250 would actually have overly efficient output even if the second ratio was still <0.25 but by only 1%, but enough to make the effort....this of course is assuming the dissipation factor of the capacitors are <0.002, the ones I got are 0.001 or less

So finally I bought a 3d printer that allowed me to make a "sectional mold"  24 sections of pie like C molds that are screwed together so that I can sectional wind these things....Took me about 4 to 5 hours to make one I think, calculations from my design speadsheet showed a Q of about 250 at 10khz...I only made one so far, but the first coil measured 233 to 300 with a mastech LCR meter..but after testing under load with a Vp in of 5 and 10V, the Q dropped to only 120....so now I'm bummed...
I studied air coils previously but the copper resistance was what stopped me from doing that type of coil, its a much simpler inductor model, where there is no core resistance...
Recently I have found that Liquid Nitrogen or LN2, can decrease the copper resistance almost 80%, therefore increasing the Q of a coil...but I'm not sure if I want to do that...
So I've hit a wall...either continue winding these MPP cores for only a Q of about 120 and hope for the multiphase second ratio to be approching 1 or look for a better coil design....either way I know its not going to be easy..

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 06:02:03 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 10:05:28 PM »
You've definitely put a lot of thought and work into this!
I can see your knowledge surpasses mine and hopefully you will find the courage to wind more coil stages before giving up.
I've always thought if we could eliminate coil resistance we could probably achieve OU
Liquid Nitrogen is not so difficult to purchase or even make if one needed too. There's some youtube video's that show you how to use dry ice and alcohol to make some.

Wish you all the best and courage to continue your work

Regards

Luc

Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 03:04:36 PM »
Will a moderator please check out my post in this section and approve it please?

http://overunity.com/other-antigravity-machines-and-devices/

Thank you


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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 03:04:36 PM »
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Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2017, 08:34:53 PM »
It's hard to believe that I'm to only one doing the research on core resistance, does anyone else have similar experiences with the legs equation calculation of core resistance vs under load conditions?

Offline Thaelin

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2017, 01:32:06 PM »
High Sourcecharge:
   Actually they are discussing this  in another thread. In kapandzies cousin, they are realizing that some of the cores do have a lower ohmage than standard ferrite. I have noticed that in a few cores that I have played around with. Grum made mention of it so that is where I found out of it.
   Dont give up the race. Follow your heart and keep your eyes on the goal. That is what fires the persuit after a cause. Because I have always had a strong background in mechanical, I have been keeping my eyes on a specific area of interest. But I never let a possible idea go by with out looking into it.

be well and over look my club fingers.   thay

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2017, 01:32:06 PM »
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Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2017, 10:53:59 PM »
High Sourcecharge:
   Actually they are discussing this  in another thread. In kapandzies cousin, they are realizing that some of the cores do have a lower ohmage than standard ferrite. I have noticed that in a few cores that I have played around with. Grum made mention of it so that is where I found out of it.
   Dont give up the race. Follow your heart and keep your eyes on the goal. That is what fires the persuit after a cause. Because I have always had a strong background in mechanical, I have been keeping my eyes on a specific area of interest. But I never let a possible idea go by with out looking into it.

be well and over look my club fingers.   thay

Yes, this is mainly because of the permeability of the ferrite cores, and it's ace properties....

Magnetic Measurements at Low Flux Densities Using the Alternating Current Bridge
By Victor E. Legg

Legg's equation states:
R(core) = u*L*(a*(Bmax)*F + c*F + e*F^2)
Where:
u = reference permeability
L = inductance (H)
F = frequency
a, c, and e (ace) are properties of specific types of material and they vary under different Gauss conditions..
a = Permeability-magnetizing force coefficient
c= Residual resistance coefficient
e = Eddy current coefficient of core
B(max) Gauss= V(rms) * 10000 / (sqrt2 * pie * N * A(e) )
Where:
N = number of turns
A(e) = effective Area (cm^2)
V(rms) = voltage rms across the inductor

This equation is used with MPP cores from a manufacturer formally known as Arnold's Magnetics.
Arnold's Magnetics is now Micrometals, but they used to have a datasheet that listed all of the ace values for all of their different cores' permeability.
MPP cores are the most efficient in core resistance, with the exception to air cores, which really isn't a core...
They only come in toroids.

My problem is somewhat different....
I am able to design, calculate, and measure an inductor using these equations for specific Q.  Last one was for about 250 and measured with my mastech 5308 LCR meter which fluctuated between 230 and 300 Q.

Here is the thing, the equations within my 2nd post are known to work for the Vp(out) of a series resonant circuit if all resistance is known....tested under B2 spice...and observed using air coils with air capacitors....
So when I put in a certain Voltage in, and get an amplified Voltage out, I can specifically state that there must be a exact amount of series resistance within the circuit within an accuracy of the digital oscilloscope...

Most of the resistances can be measured and at only 10khz, the only resistance that would be of significance that cannot be measured is the core resistance. 

AC wire resistance and parasitic capacitance of the inductor should be very low....

First because the frequency of operation is at only 10 khz, and AC wire resistance does not even measure when below 50khz with 28 AWG wire:

Second, I cannot believe that a progressively wound core with polyimide Heavy insulated magnet wire with a parasitic capacitance of only 6pF (64100 hz Self Resonant Frequency) could have that much effect at 10khz and is not variable to voltage increase. 
Polyimide has a dissipation factor of only 0.002....that's very low.....so, a capacitor does not decrease in efficiency well below it's dielectric breakdown point, and in this case, Heavy polyimide magnet wire breaks down at 4000 V, where I'm only generating <1500V with 5 or 10 V inputs ...

So when you measure a core at 230 - 300 Q and the output voltage of the LC circuit shows a resistance of a corresponding Q of only 120, the backward calculations of the magnetic field show that in order to generate the amount of resistance within the core, it would have to be at 167 Gauss but the magnetic field was calculated and measured to have only about 6.5 Gauss...

In conclusion, the input actual voltage was 5V, but backward calculating the required input voltage to generate 167 Gauss, would equal to an input voltage of 129 V.!!!!!!!??????!!!!


WTF

« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 01:08:40 AM by sourcecharge »

Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 04:11:34 PM »
Just wanted to correct myself because I was posting of the top of my head instead of checking my documentation, and post some of some really hard to find pdfs...

First:

B(max) is Flux density....
B(max) = V(rms) x 10^8 / ( sqrt(2) * pie * F * N * A(e) )

so ya, a little different, but my spreadsheets were correct, I simply didn't remember them exactly...

Second, Micrometals is not giving these out anymore, and they are 10+ years old but they still work great....

The intro pdf has all the formulas that anyone would need to produce high quality inductors...

Funny that it's no longer on the web...




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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 04:11:34 PM »
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Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2019, 07:53:06 AM »
Over the coarse of last year, I wound 20 powdered iron type toriod cores with my toriod winder.  They were all very similar and were wound with exactly 1010 turns.

Each core has different properties, even when purchasing the same core.  That means all 20 core were not exactly the same inductance.  At which point, I adjusted the number of turns to account for this variance.  After which, the output of each series resonant LC circuit was different for each other, due to slightly different resistances from core loss and copper loss.  I introduced a potentiometer between the capacitor and inductor to balance the output voltage peak of each series resonant LC circuit.

Results:  I have found that the EPRR (or the first ratio) using 20 phases was about 5.3.  This is significant due to the fact that B2 spice is showing anything above 4.8 would output overly efficient output.  The circuit was designed to only measure the output and not to achieve an overly efficient output due cost restrictions, and inventory availability of MPP cores.  Another words, I knew this was only to check to see if spending the money on expensive cores that would work in my automatic toriod winder would have a desired output.

The output voltage level was higher than predicted from B2 spice. 

There was a problem though.

The current measured equated to a 91% Power Factor.  Single phase measurements of the same core as well as every other LC circuit under the same circuit and conditions showed around a 80% to 76% Power Factor.

I am unsure if this is due to the introduced pot between the L and C, if it is due to the lossyness of the iron powdered cores, or simply because of the actual circuit result using 20 phases.

I noticed that when using 20 phases, if the ground was disconnected from the capacitor, but all of the capacitors were on the same ground line connected together, there was no observible output or input difference.  This led me to use LCL at 10 phases, and found the same result.

This test circuit was not designed up to the ability of the test requirements.  Meaning, there are many varibles that need to be accounted for. 

Future tests should include air core inductors to limit the core differences.  This may increase the complexity of the test circuit, but it may be cheaper than buying large numbers of MPP cores.

Finally, I would like to say that if the Power Factor continues to increase as the number of phases increases, I'm theorizing that it will not ever go above 1.

Therefore, even if the number of phases increases the Power Factor, the EPRR ratio should exponentially increase up to the number of phases used.  This would overcome the Power Factor increase, but such an experiment would require ALOT of phases to overcome it.

I might be wrong though, the Power Factor may go above 1, which would be crazy btw, so at which point, no matter how many phases are used, there would never be an overly efficient output.

Oh, and, if this works, and the increase in Power Factor is only due to the lossyness of the iron powdered cores, I have theorized that the output load would have to be time dilated, and possible gravitational discrepancies may arise.

This means that the time dilated loads would experience more time than the input circuit which should be able to be measured by mechanical clocks, and digital weight scales.

I still have not wound the 20 MPP cores by hand, (not even started) but I have made the tools to do so.  I don't think I have ever procrastinated as much as I have been procrastinating winding these cores.  I am really hoping that I think up an automated way for mass production.  Doing it by hand seems very amateurish.

 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2019, 06:58:36 PM »
Hi sourcecharge,

Thanks for returning to this project of yours again. I would like to learn about some more details on your circuit if you do not mind. 

The best would be if you made a Print Screen on your schematic while in b2Spice, then I could possible understand it more readily because it is not clear. 

Basically do you have a square wave generator which drives some (up to say 20) separate series LC circuits?  And you use MOSFET switches to define the ON sequences for the series LC circuits?  No magnetic coupling between the separate coils, right?

When you defined the R resistance in your Reply #2,  as

[R = total series resistance of the series resonant circuit, including, ESR(cap), and of the coil, R(dc), R(ac), R(di), R(core)...not to mention the dc resistance of the mosfets and the connecting wire...] 

all of these sound ok but I do not see the generator internal resistance included? Does not a square wave generator drive then any one of the series LC circuits? And how is an output load connected?

How do you create the multi phases? By using several MOSFET switches controlled in sequence by a multiphase pulse generator?  Or it is simpler?   What do you mean on EPRR ?   Some kind of power ratio?

I am surprised a little that you consider the resistance of a ferromagnetic core. Is such data not covered in the eddy current specification or that is not enough? 

Sorry for so many questions...  Thanks for any details you are willing to share.

Gyula

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2019, 06:58:36 PM »
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Offline sourcecharge

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2019, 10:41:43 PM »
Hi sourcecharge,

Thanks for returning to this project of yours again. I would like to learn about some more details on your circuit if you do not mind. 

The best would be if you made a Print Screen on your schematic while in b2Spice, then I could possible understand it more readily because it is not clear. 

Basically do you have a square wave generator which drives some (up to say 20) separate series LC circuits?  And you use MOSFET switches to define the ON sequences for the series LC circuits?  No magnetic coupling between the separate coils, right?

When you defined the R resistance in your Reply #2,  as

[R = total series resistance of the series resonant circuit, including, ESR(cap), and of the coil, R(dc), R(ac), R(di), R(core)...not to mention the dc resistance of the mosfets and the connecting wire...] 

all of these sound ok but I do not see the generator internal resistance included? Does not a square wave generator drive then any one of the series LC circuits? And how is an output load connected?

How do you create the multi phases? By using several MOSFET switches controlled in sequence by a multiphase pulse generator?  Or it is simpler?   What do you mean on EPRR ?   Some kind of power ratio?

I am surprised a little that you consider the resistance of a ferromagnetic core. Is such data not covered in the eddy current specification or that is not enough? 

Sorry for so many questions...  Thanks for any details you are willing to share.

Gyula

Hi,

The digital logic of the multiphase driver logic consists of series to parallel registers, 2 mosfets and 4 nor gates which are powered by a reference voltage from +/- 10V.  It took me a long time to figure out how to make a circuit that can vary in frequency, # of phases, duty factor, and voltage output from 0V to +/- 10V.  This circuit is expensive and requires a professional function generator (to know exactly what frequency you are using down to the hertz) that is driven at a multiplied frequency equal to the number of digital logic multiphase dual output for direct mosfet driving.  Each dual output is connected directly to a N and P channel mosfet's gate.  This type of driver circuit is commonly known as a half bridge.  Referencing the exact chips for this circuit would be too much information, but there are MANY series to parallel registers, nor gates, and mosfets that anyone can get.  All phases of the circuit can be turned on and off with a debounced SPST switch.

The logic circuit does turn on and off the half bridge(s), and can vary in duty factor which is the on/off time of the period of the frequency.  A duty factor of an AC square wave is defined as the total time on of the N and P channel mosfets divided by the total period time.  The duty factor (as well as power factor and dissipation factor) can be expressed as a percentage, or a number between 0 and 1.  Anything outside of these perimeters is nonsensical.

There is no magnetic coupling between the multiple coils.  The coils are simple toriodal inductors wound progressively, one time around without the ends touching.

The generator of the square waves are multiple half bridge drivers.  The digital logic as well as the function generator do not introduce resistance as they are only gating the mosfets.  The half bridge drivers consist of small signal mosfets which have Rd(on) resistance.  Usually, the N and P channel mosfets do not have the same Rd(on), and must be averaged.  The 2N7000, and BS250 are cheap and easy to find, although the exact 2N7000 and BS250 from way back may not be available as there are always differences in the Rd(on) and current capabilities from different manufacturers.  This should not be that important as simply finding mosfets that suit your needs and to include the Rd(on) in the calculations.  The connection wire from the linear power supplies are also part of the the series resistance but should be limited by simply using low gauge connection wire. 

The power supplies do not introduce extra series resistance.  I thought this might be the case, so I bought Maxwell super capacitors, and used them as the power supply.  The output voltage peak of a single phase series LC circuit did not change between the linear power supply and the super capacitors.  The super capacitors have a rated ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) from the manufacturer, so therefore the linear power supplies do not introduce any significant series resistance up to the ESR of the super capacitor.

This brings up another point I would like to address before moving on to the rest of your questions.  The measurement of the voltage peak of a series LC resonant circuit can be measured by multimeter, or by oscilloscope.  The multimeter and oscilloscope do not measure exactly the same as newer oscilloscopes only have a automatic calibration that never works.  Previous oscilloscopes had the capability to manually adjust the volts per division but now, most digital Oscopes do not.  Calibration between each measurement device is necessary.  Meaning, I have a 10V reference chip that is  0.0002% variance at 23 degrees C and this was used to calibrate my multimeters.  The multimeters have AC and DC measurements, but the AC measurements are frequency dependent and the error only increases as frequency increases.  The DC measurements are the most accurate way of measuring voltage as they have the least amount of error and are not frequency dependent.  So in order to measure an AC output voltage peak, I have put together a simple voltage multiplier type of circuit, able to generate up to about 500V DC.  I used the multimeter to read the DC output voltage and use the oscilloscope to visually line up one channel measuring the voltage multiplier DC to the second channel measuring the peak of series LC resonant circuit.  This is done by increasing and decreasing the voltage multiplier's output.   Note that if the capacitor in the series LC resonant circuit is less than about 10nF, the probe of the Oscope can decrease the voltage peak measurement. This occurs because of the EPR (Equivalent Parallel Resistance) of the capacitance of the probe in parallel to the EPR of the capacitor in the series LC resonant circuit.

Moving on.

The output load(s) are easy to understand.  A single phase series LC resonant circuit's unrectified output across a load is defined as a physical resistor that is connected in parallel to the capacitor of the series LC resonant circuit.  The EPR of the capacitor is now in parallel with the physical resistor and adds like resistors in parallel.  In order to use multiphases, imagine the same single phase series LC resonant circuit, but using rectifiers to polarize the output.  By rectifying the positive and negative output of the AC signal from the series LC resonant circuit, two exactly the same resistance of physical resistors can be placed in parallel to the capacitor.  This essentially is the same circuit as far as the series LC resonant circuit is concerned.  Multiphase output is simply rectifying the outputs of multiple phase resonant circuits and connecting all positive rectification to one physical resistor, and all negative rectification to a second physical resistor.  The load can also be a single resistor in a multiphase circuit by connecting the positive outputs to one side of a resistor, while connecting the negative outputs to the other side of the same resistor.  This resistance has a virtual ground and it is actually calculated to be half the resistance of the single phase example, so to have the same voltage peak output as two polarized resistors, the single resistor must by two times the resistance to calculate it's equivalence. 

ESR = [ DF^2 / (1+DF^2) ]x EPR

EPR = 1 / ( 2 x pi x F x C x DF )

DF = dissipation factor, which can be measured by LCR meter.  It is usually given by manufacturer datasheets, and I have found the metalized polyester have the least dissipation factor (0.0003) in regards to cost.  V-caps (Teflon and copper) I would theorize that they are the best but they are way too expensive to even bother checking compared to the metalized polyester type you can find at digikey.

EPRR (Equivalent Parallel Resistance Ratio)

EPR x 1/EPRR = an adjusted EPR

example:

5k ohm loads, or 10k ohm load.

5k ohm (EPR) x 1/5.3 =  26.5k ohm EPR

DF =  1 / ( 2 x pi x F x C x 26.5k ohm )

ESR = ( 1 / ( 2 x pi x F x C x 26.5k ohm ))^2/(1+( 1 / ( 2 x pi x F x C x 26.5k ohm ))^2) x (1 / ( 2 x pi x F x C x 26.5k ohm ))

This results in a lower ESR that each resonant circuit calculates to, meaning the voltage output is higher as EPRR increases.

EPRR / # phases = 2nd ratio that theoretically cannot go above 1, and B2 spice calculates that no matter how many phases are used, it never calculates above 0.25 .

Lastly, core resistance is real and is approximated by Legg's equation, but further study is needed as I have outlined my original problem regarding core resistance.  All real resistance must be accounted for when calculating the output of multiphase resonant circuits.

Hope that helps....

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Multiphase Resonant Circuits
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2019, 12:08:54 AM »
Hi sourcecharge,

Oh, you certainly gave answers...  8)   thanks for your time and efforts.  I go through it and digest and when have further questions, will ask.

Thanks,
Gyula

 

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