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Author Topic: $25,000 National Geographic Contest - Compressed Air (Ambient Heat) Energy  (Read 7008 times)

Offline memoryman

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Actually, Simon Derricutt has been running a thread on revolution-green on how to do this in his kitchen. He expects real results this year.
Using some form of heat engine can work, but requires the cold sink; not always doable. Have you looked at Nitinol engines? Not very efficient, but they do work.
Personally, I have had an interest in converting heat to electricity for many decades.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 01:51:02 AM by memoryman »

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Offline lancaIV

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Hello memoryman,
related "...Simon Derricut has been running.." :
is he ready with his re-/search  and can he demonstrate his functional results pro-to-type-ly ?

Is there a need for a "cold sink" or in reality an "heat sink" ?
What is about RT=room temperature as metrical NN,base-line ?l

He have this,his, affords later by and with altrustic mention/man(n)er (to stay in remind):
https://www.google.pt/search?q=wilhelm+haeberle+heat+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=rV2fWezUFKGp8weinrXIDA


Sincerely
             OCWL

Offline memoryman

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Hi, lancaIV.
He does not have a demonstration prototype: hopefully this year.
No cold sink; direct conversion of infra red to electricity.
There won't be a patent on the principle but may be on part of the manufacturing process.

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Offline Tom Booth

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Actually, Simon Derricutt has been running a thread on revolution-green on how to do this in his kitchen. He expects real results this year.
Using some form of heat engine can work, but requires the cold sink; not always doable. Have you looked at Nitinol engines? Not very efficient, but they do work.
Personally, I have had an interest in converting heat to electricity for many decades.

I've browsed around on revolution green for some time but haven't been able to locate the thread you mentioned. Is this a blog?

Could you provide a link to the thread?

We've had some discussions on this previously. Regarding Tesla's "Self-Acting Engine". The heat engine or device proposed actually does not REQUIRE a "sink" or "cold resorvuor". At least not in the traditional thermodynamic sense. If I might try to explain.

Tripler for example, compressed air into pipes which ran through a water cooling jacket. Without the water jacket the heat of compression would have reached THOUSANDS of degrees F.

The water in the cooling jacket, most probably, or at least at times would have, or could have been well ABOVE the ambient air temperature. Nevertheless, water has a tremendouse capacity for heat absorption, and being RELATIVELY cold, compared to the compressed air, could draw off the heat of compression at a prodigious rate. Likewise, any heat pump or refrigeration system operates similarly, by manipulating the RELATIVE temperature diference between the COMPRESSED and therefore HOT refrigerant and the ambient. Tripler, by boiling liquid air with ambient heat in a steam engine realized a "surplussage" of about 3x. That is he could manufacture 10 gallons of liquid air by boiling just 3 gallons in his steam  engine used to power his compressor BECAUSE the tepid water, though above ambient could yet absorb the heat of compression at a prodigious rate.

In otherwords, this is not a below ambient "sink" but rather simply one method of discarding excess heat. He realized a surplus of energy although discarding enormouse volumes of heat energy. Not only did his method make the heat of the ambient available, it did so by making hot water from the discarded heat of compression.

Now back then the only heat engine known primarily was the steam engine. Thus the necessity for cooling the air to the point of liquefaction. Otherwise how could you BOIL the air with ambient heat in a conventional steam engine? You, of course, could not. This was the same premis Tesla and others strived for in that era. Liquid Air to boil in a steam engine with ambient heat to somehow come up with a Self Acting Engine. What they failed to take into account was the necesity for dumping enormous quantities of excess heat. In otherwords, for such an engine to be "self acting" it needs to also make lots and lots of hot water ( or hot air).

But today this whole process can be greatly simplified by using a low delta T Stirling engine. A Stirling engine does not require liquid air to be boiled to create internal pressure to operate. Further, it can utilize at least SOME of the excess heat of compression to augment its operation. (increase the temperature difference).

The purpose of compressing the air, it must be remembered however, is to COOL it. That the process of cooling the air also throws off heat is largely incidental.

A freezer makes ice essentially by compressing a "fluid" or gas so as to increase its temperature RELATIVE to the ambient at which point the heat dissipates to the ambient "sink" on its own accord with nothing more than convection of sometimes quite warm ambient air.

So, if Tripler could realize a surplus of energy though discarding ALL the generated heat of compression, an even greater surplus can be realized by applying the same process but using the temperature difference created to run a Stirling engine which is capable of utilizing both extreem cold as well as extreem heat.

Offline memoryman

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There are several articles, sometimes under Mark Dansie's name. Her is one:
http://revolution-green.com/defining-flow-energy-real-quest-free-energy/
Understand that we want WORK done; ENERGY is the means to get WORK.

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Offline Tom Booth

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There are several articles, sometimes under Mark Dansie's name. Her is one:
http://revolution-green.com/defining-flow-energy-real-quest-free-energy/
Understand that we want WORK done; ENERGY is the means to get WORK.

In regard to re-establishing an imbalance. The drinking Bird, as silly as it may seem, does just that. How? by disposing of the excess heat of the ambient with evaporative cooling. There is, as a matter of fact, no actual "sink" or "cold reservoir". Experiments have shown that even ABOVE ambient temperature water IN THE GLASS will work and the bird will still keep going.

When air is compressed, WHILE ALSO BEING COOLED by a water jacket (or a radiator or any form of heat exchanger to eliminate the excess heat). Energy is, in effect GAINED because the compression process becomes easier. If the heat of compression is removed the compression process becomes that much easier. That is, Hot air when cooled contracts in volume on its own so that not so much energy needs to be expended in the compression process. Tripler made this observation in regard to his Air Liquifier. By drawing off the heat of compression, he related how he did not have to use as much energy to compress the air.

We live in what amounts to a hot furnace. Earth's atmosphere is extremely hot, relatively speaking. The problem of maintaining or re-establishing an imbalance is a problem of somehow throwing off all that EXCESS heat we are surrounded by. That is not such a difficult engineering problem once the goal of eliminating heat, rather than accumulating more of it is clearly identified.

Running steam engines on liquid air is possible, but on a large scale there are enormous difficulties. It is certainly POSSIBLE as Tripler demonstrated, but probably not very practical in the long run. For one thing, liquid air is violently explosive if contained. Tripler himself identified the potential military applications. You couldn't keep a tank full of liquid air in your car's gas tank. It would either explode or it would boil away and go to waste. Cryogenic temperatures required to make liquid air present material problems. A Stirling engine could operate at much more manageable temperatures.

Offline lancaIV

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   http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.r-values.html
                     "neutral temperature"
           http://www.astrofoil.net/img51.gif
                    the last sentance:

           All objects ........ no temperature ...... an object.   


                  Brownian movement 
    in a perfect vacuum=no friction/resistance ambiance

                     Michael Rodriguez
                     http://gigadron.com/
                     http://whatistemperature.com/


 http://www.astrofoil.net/
http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.tech1.html
http://www.astrofoil.net/img75.gif

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Offline madddann

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Hello memoryman,
related "...Simon Derricut has been running.." :
is he ready with his re-/search  and can he demonstrate his functional results pro-to-type-ly ?

Is there a need for a "cold sink" or in reality an "heat sink" ?
What is about RT=room temperature as metrical NN,base-line ?l

He have this,his, affords later by and with altrustic mention/man(n)er (to stay in remind):
https://www.google.pt/search?q=wilhelm+haeberle+heat+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=rV2fWezUFKGp8weinrXIDA


Sincerely
             OCWL


Hello lancaIV!

There are some interesting patents to be found at that link, too bad I don't speak german, but by the description the patent you linked to seems to be something like this one - see picture - I made an excerpt from the patent attached...
There I found also another patent about replacing an expansion valve with a roots blower - also attached...
All of this could make an interesting system, I'm interested at the opinions of everyone.
Also, did anyone try to build systems similar to this?

Hope i'm not too much offtopic, just tought to post this, so here it is.

Offline Tom Booth

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I have a few questions regarding the diagram: What exactly is "the transporting means".?

Also why is heat being introduced into the evaporator?

It seems the turbine drives everything else, but I'm not clear on what drives the turbine. The heat entering the (cold) evaporator? Perhaps I'm not comprehending the system, but it appears like one would be putting a heater inside an ice box. Rather than somehow driving the turbine, wouldn't the heat entering the evaporator simply destroy the cold side of the temperature diference created by the heat pump. The key to unlocking the mystery of this apparent contradiction is, I suppose "the transport means", but at this point I can only guess what "the transport means" actually consists of.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lancaIV

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I have a few questions regarding the diagram: What exactly is "the transporting means".?

Also why is heat being introduced into the evaporator?

It seems the turbine drives everything else, but I'm not clear on what drives the turbine. The heat entering the (cold) evaporator? Perhaps I'm not comprehending the system, but it appears like one would be putting a heater inside an ice box. Rather than somehow driving the turbine, wouldn't the heat entering the evaporator simply destroy the cold side of the temperature diference created by the heat pump. The key to unlocking the mystery of this apparent contradiction is, I suppose "the transport means", but at this point I can only guess what "the transport means" actually consists of.

Hello Mr.Booth,
at first I will give you the above image descriprion,dwlivered ny the WIPI-system:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19850704&DB=&locale=&CC=WO&NR=8502881A1&KC=A1&ND=1#

so you can read and imagine 3 to 4th dimensional the exothermic and internal thermic energy converting process,
I hope so that the inventor did translate this procedere clearly enough.

Probably later there will be a potential for less important questions !

Sincerely
             OCWL

p.a.: wishing a nice weekend,cristian calandar viewside

Offline madddann

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Hello Tom!

As I understand, the transporting means would be something like a screw drive (or maybe something even better), to push the liquid to the part 4. (I'm not an expert in this field, so sugesstions for transporting means are welcome).
Also I think that first the left half (normal heat pump) has to be run until the cold and hot parts are created and then would be the time to engage the right side. Maybe that way the left side has a time advantage and the hot and cold parts would not be totaly destroyed, but instead the compressor would run more at ease.

OK, this are just my thoughts about the way I understand the patent. Hopefully something good comes out of this.

Also the patent in the bottom (in my previous post) coud be added to this system instead of the expansion valve (roots blower attached to a generator) to gain additional output.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lancaIV

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Hello lancaIV!

There are some interesting patents to be found at that link, too bad I don't speak german, but by the description the patent you linked to seems to be something like this one - see picture - I made an excerpt from the patent attached...
There I found also another patent about replacing an expansion valve with a roots blower - also attached...
All of this could make an interesting system, I'm interested at the opinions of everyone.
Also, did anyone try to build systems similar to this?

Hope i'm not too much offtopic, just tought to post this, so here it is.

Hello maddann,
you want it -the thermodynamic cycle engine- easier aamd more compact ?
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19970506&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=5626459A&KC=A&ND=4#

Mr.Thomas Cosby,Chicago/U.S.A. is now corporal death,R.I.P..
But he delivered me (I called to him in a time before 9/11,+/- 2000) the rights to introduce his concept to the european WIPO-aerea EP,
the comercial rights now temporarely lost( 20 years countdown and/or no patent fee payings),
neither the one reazon nor the other reazon let me hinder to ad-/re-dress the honour -to whom- the laudatio has to be given.
I am only doing "open source"-information management.

http://www.overunity.de/206/freedom-housecar-project/20/wap2/
http://books.google.pt/books/about/Development_of_the_Steam_Engine_and_Resu.html?id=5eWXtgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
http://www.geocities.ws/cosbytech/
http://www.world-wire.com/news/0401040001.html

Have a good day
                        OCWL
p.s.: "Maximum ambient cycle" another publicated theme by Mr.Thomas Cook
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19920428&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=5107682A&KC=A&ND=4#

A similar "energy solution re-/researcher" : Barry Lebost
           https://www.google.pt/search?q=barry+lebost+heat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=9EyhWeqyC8yp8wee17_4CA

Offline lancaIV

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Hello Tom!

As I understand, the transporting means would be something like a screw drive (or maybe something even better), to push the liquid to the part 4. (I'm not an expert in this field, so sugesstions for transporting means are welcome).
Also I think that first the left half (normal heat pump) has to be run until the cold and hot parts are created and then would be the time to engage the right side. Maybe that way the left side has a time advantage and the hot and cold parts would not be totaly destroyed, but instead the compressor would run more at ease.

OK, this are just my thoughts about the way I understand the patent. Hopefully something good comes out of this.

Also the patent in the bottom (in my previous post) coud be added to this system instead of the expansion valve (roots blower attached to a generator) to gain additional output.

             Term(-inus) Extruder (In-truder)
truder: similar german "trudeln,torkeln"
          Metrometer,Gyroskope

 laminar to turbulent stream and vise-versa
                  Gegenstroemungstauscher

a thermodynamic engine in industrial process,
with most pro/cons at-/tested:
https://www.google.pt/search?source=hp&q=schukey+motor&oq=schukey&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l4.2205.10222.0.12233.9.9.0.0.0.0.267.1517.0j8j1.9.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1504...0i10k1j0i19k1j0i13i30i19k1.pEDjFX0ZKAg

the DELTA-OMEGA MASCHINE

Offline madddann

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lancaIV, thanks for the links and all.

I also saw this on the german wiki:

"the Schukey motor has received funding from the European union Thermodyna Maschinen und Anlagen GmbH is currently working on the development of standard products"

So the big boys are working on it  :) .

Offline antijon

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I think the patent is making use of the excess heat energy of vapor compression cycles to power a turbine. The first circuit is a compressor, heat exchanger as condenser, expansion valve and evaporator as heat exchanger. The second circuit is two heat exchangers, at condenser and evaporator, and a turbine. The second circuit also being filled with a refrigerant.

The compressor makes hot gas which transfers the heat to the second circuit. This heats the fluid of the second circuit to power a turbine. The refrigerant in the first circuit leaves the heat exchanger as a condensed liquid, enters the evaporator and boils, taking on the heat of the vapor in the second circuit. The vapor in the second circuit should condense, and be ready to repeat the cycle.

I think the inventor is making use of the efficiency of vapor compression cycles. Here's a little info about modern heat pumps (air conditioners):

If you used an electric heater (joule heating) of 30,000 btu/hr, that requires 8,792W. And that's 100% efficient, as all electric power is converted directly to heat.

A modern heat pump could produce the same 30,000 btu/hr for roughly 2,160W or less, depending on the efficiency rating.

So consider that a heat pump is providing the heat to power a steam turbine, the turbine turning a generator, and the generator producing more KW than the heat pump requires. I think the feasibility of this system comes from heat energy, as any excess heat picked up by the system only increases power output.

 

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