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Author Topic: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)  (Read 28237 times)

Offline antijon

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2017, 03:15:45 PM »
Thanks Carroll. Probably I'm only 34. Lol

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Offline citfta

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2017, 04:33:05 PM »
They are older than me also.  And I am slightly more than double your age.  They are an interesting device though.  And were still being used up until the switching power supplies came into common usage.  The interesting thing about them is the output voltage stayed the same over a wide range of loads and a wide range of input voltages.  A lot of the ones I saw used in industry had an output voltage of 120 volts.  But the input could be anywhere from 90 volts to 135 volts or so and the output stayed the same as long as you didn't overload the output.

Offline antijon

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2017, 03:45:02 PM »
About that Carroll, I've read that they work by saturating the core near the secondary, thanks to the capacitor loaded winding. In a normal transformer, when we talk about saturation it's due to the primary, correct?

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2017, 03:45:02 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2017, 09:53:19 PM »





 Sorry for the absence. I needed some time for local projects. Got a lot done so I feel better.




 So for the arguments that a JT isn't a bifilar coil. Mheh.. Look at the the opposing winds. Just because it is connected differently doesn't mean that it won't have the same interposing wind rules that apply. An EMF moving in such a coil of one half of the winding will indeed reduce the cemf, in fact it should even increase in voltage because of the opposite polarity being shunted in between the primary winding. The core is to purge the magnetic field from the process which enhances the magnification. At least until saturation of the core then a leak happens.


 I'm working on a very special coil setup that uses iron gardening wire with a bifilar primary and over wrapped solenoid secondaries. Two halves of the toroid iron wire circle will be used. A single channel, so two bifilar coils in series for the emitter coils wrapped on the iron wire toroid. This should allow disruptive discharges from a cap to an antenna as a virtual ground. The larger the antenna the more it can handle voltage before it breaks down the air around it and suck in free plasma from all around the antenna. The plasma should move to the antenna because the voltage acts like a vacuum to it. This should allow me to magnify the bifilar emf blasts as it (plasma) back feeds to the bifilar emitters. The secondaries should translate the emf blasts into AC which can be diode rectified into DC for storage and reuse.


 Once the primary tank is filled it should run very happy till it wears out.


 The secondaries I believe need to be of heavy solid copper wire and the secondaries will get very hot because of the emf blasts they are receiving. Later on cooling should be applied to the secondaries to keep them in operating condition. If large enough copper water pipe can be used and water pumped through the pipes to cool them.


 My initial tests will be done as I build a grow light Led system. That will be my first test and will most likely have a battery involved to get the process started and keep the battery charged as it runs. Unfortunately you need a kick off run initially to get the process started. After the first run it should back flow into the battery and charge it up. I might need some circuitry to handle the charge back and cut off the power to the battery when it is charged enough. I should be able to use a current sensing resistor and sub circuit to handle that.


 The small unit is already built and I should be starting my trials on the device. Digital meter and scope waiting to have some fun. As long as I start out slowly I should be alright. Give it slight power in the beginning and try to ramp up the power storage as I develop some graphene batteries I watched being built. This will make an excellent battery charger for those kinds of batteries since they are most capacitor like.


 Also I am gonna be trying a few other things out with this setup including an interior rotor with self terminated coils and the effects of that related to Tesla's other machine I am going to be making.


 I used some networking wire that is solid core but seems to be made of tin but coated with copper as the bifilar emitters. The one problem there is that it is fairly light gauge. I'll show pictures later.


 If you look at a JT circuit there is indeed an interposing winding. That is just about the length of similarities to the bifilar wind or simply method. This interposing winding style separates the primary coil from itself and that kinda gets rid of most of the cemf. In fact I am thinking that this system could get gains via that fact, seeing that the negative is interposed to the positive wiring of the primary coil. Kind of like a speed boost only. So the current stays the same but the intensity or voltage level rise from the speed boost through the coil. With self inductance being somewhat removed from a coil where is this coil gaining the voltage then? The only other value you can change is the voltage really and that should equate to speed of the charges moving through the coil.


 Tesla's other device uses the same premise. It's a motor generator with gen exciter built in. A magneto. All of that is turned via the motor or prime mover. The generator section has the same setup I am about to start testing with the Led driver. The emitter coils are bifilar going to an antenna. It is being fed impulses from a capacitor disruptive discharge circuit. That circuit is fed via the magneto exciter. The emitters are discharged into a heavy copper coil in the rotor which should generate huge currents in those coils. This will be split between the prime mover and load circuits and the rest if any is used to charge a battery or bank of batteries.


 This device was patented by Tesla and only shown in vague details. The other patents Tesla released were used in that device. This is why we never really found any thing special about the older device. Every aspect was looked into by Tesla and I will be showing each patent and where it applies in the new device. This includes a magnetic Prime mover controller (motor controller), disruptive discharge circuits and many many other devices used to enhance the devices output. He was very smart about what he did. He put it all out there in the public's eye and no one really caught on until now.


 For the meantime I will be experimenting withe this new disruptive discharge transformer setup. This is the heart of the generator portion of the device I mentioned above. Every aspect of the devices patent has been shown in greater detail in a bunch of individual patents with the devices patent being a way to put them all together.


 Not all patents by Tesla were used. only a select group of them. I will try to post them all for everyone to see.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2017, 01:02:22 AM »
A JT coil need not be "interposed". It is effectively one continuous winding in the same direction, with a "tap" at some place along the winding. This can be a center tap or it can be closer to one end or the other. The winding can be on a toroidal core, a solenoidal core, or no core at all. Even a "tesla bifilar pancake" winding can be used, with the center tap being the series connection between the inner end of one winding and the outer end of the other winding. Solenoidal or toroidal JT coils can be overwrapped, interposed, or can be in two separate sections on a rod or toroid core.

Note where the "dots" are on the JT diagram. This dot indicates the "start" of a winding. The JT schematic typically draws the coil as a transformer, but if you consider the dots, you will see that it is actually one continuous winding all in the same direction, effectively "center tapped" or tapped closer to one end, to give a turns ratio other than 1:1 between the two sections.

Everyone who has built JTs knows that if it does not oscillate at first, you simply reverse the connections of one of the "windings", (actually one of the sections). This results in the total coil being connected just as I said: as one continuous winding in the same direction with a tap somewhere along the length. Once this fact is realized, JT builders will never again have to "guess" how the windings are to be connected for proper operation the first time, every time.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2017, 01:02:22 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2017, 08:22:13 AM »




 Sorry for the absence. I needed some time for local projects. Got a lot done so I feel better.




 So for the arguments that a JT isn't a bifilar coil. Mheh.. Look at the the opposing winds. Just because it is connected differently doesn't mean that it won't have the same interposing wind rules that apply. An EMF moving in such a coil of one half of the winding will indeed reduce the cemf, in fact it should even increase in voltage because of the opposite polarity being shunted in between the primary winding. The core is to purge the magnetic field from the process which enhances the magnification. At least until saturation of the core then a leak happens.


 I'm working on a very special coil setup that uses iron gardening wire with a bifilar primary and over wrapped solenoid secondaries. Two halves of the toroid iron wire circle will be used. A single channel, so two bifilar coils in series for the emitter coils wrapped on the iron wire toroid. This should allow disruptive discharges from a cap to an antenna as a virtual ground. The larger the antenna the more it can handle voltage before it breaks down the air around it and suck in free plasma from all around the antenna. The plasma should move to the antenna because the voltage acts like a vacuum to it. This should allow me to magnify the bifilar emf blasts as it (plasma) back feeds to the bifilar emitters. The secondaries should translate the emf blasts into AC which can be diode rectified into DC for storage and reuse.


 Once the primary tank is filled it should run very happy till it wears out.


 The secondaries I believe need to be of heavy solid copper wire and the secondaries will get very hot because of the emf blasts they are receiving. Later on cooling should be applied to the secondaries to keep them in operating condition. If large enough copper water pipe can be used and water pumped through the pipes to cool them.


 My initial tests will be done as I build a grow light Led system. That will be my first test and will most likely have a battery involved to get the process started and keep the battery charged as it runs. Unfortunately you need a kick off run initially to get the process started. After the first run it should back flow into the battery and charge it up. I might need some circuitry to handle the charge back and cut off the power to the battery when it is charged enough. I should be able to use a current sensing resistor and sub circuit to handle that.


 The small unit is already built and I should be starting my trials on the device. Digital meter and scope waiting to have some fun. As long as I start out slowly I should be alright. Give it slight power in the beginning and try to ramp up the power storage as I develop some graphene batteries I watched being built. This will make an excellent battery charger for those kinds of batteries since they are most capacitor like.


 Also I am gonna be trying a few other things out with this setup including an interior rotor with self terminated coils and the effects of that related to Tesla's other machine I am going to be making.


 I used some networking wire that is solid core but seems to be made of tin but coated with copper as the bifilar emitters. The one problem there is that it is fairly light gauge. I'll show pictures later.


 If you look at a JT circuit there is indeed an interposing winding. That is just about the length of similarities to the bifilar wind or simply method. This interposing winding style separates the primary coil from itself and that kinda gets rid of most of the cemf. In fact I am thinking that this system could get gains via that fact, seeing that the negative is interposed to the positive wiring of the primary coil. Kind of like a speed boost only. So the current stays the same but the intensity or voltage level rise from the speed boost through the coil. With self inductance being somewhat removed from a coil where is this coil gaining the voltage then? The only other value you can change is the voltage really and that should equate to speed of the charges moving through the coil.


 Tesla's other device uses the same premise. It's a motor generator with gen exciter built in. A magneto. All of that is turned via the motor or prime mover. The generator section has the same setup I am about to start testing with the Led driver. The emitter coils are bifilar going to an antenna. It is being fed impulses from a capacitor disruptive discharge circuit. That circuit is fed via the magneto exciter. The emitters are discharged into a heavy copper coil in the rotor which should generate huge currents in those coils. This will be split between the prime mover and load circuits and the rest if any is used to charge a battery or bank of batteries.


 This device was patented by Tesla and only shown in vague details. The other patents Tesla released were used in that device. This is why we never really found any thing special about the older device. Every aspect was looked into by Tesla and I will be showing each patent and where it applies in the new device. This includes a magnetic Prime mover controller (motor controller), disruptive discharge circuits and many many other devices used to enhance the devices output. He was very smart about what he did. He put it all out there in the public's eye and no one really caught on until now.


 For the meantime I will be experimenting withe this new disruptive discharge transformer setup. This is the heart of the generator portion of the device I mentioned above. Every aspect of the devices patent has been shown in greater detail in a bunch of individual patents with the devices patent being a way to put them all together.


 Not all patents by Tesla were used. only a select group of them. I will try to post them all for everyone to see.

It is clear that you dont understand how a JT works.

The CEMF will not be reduced due to the winding configuration of  the two windings in a JT.

The only reason most JTs are wound like that,is for simplicity-nothing more.


Brad

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2017, 10:02:36 PM »
A little story : 
a.
the Aquino battery company got 190 Mio.US$ investment for the
exploration from a "saltwater battery".
The company became bankrupt,their total productive assets now
in sold for 2,8 Mio. US$. ( Mr. Bill Gates lost some soft earned money :'( sad,really sad)

b.
anybody here knows about William Putt and his patented ergo publicated work (?) :
double windings !
 Why,the improvements now based by which experiments and results ?

c.
there was built a capacitive windings motor with a 40 KW power output,these has been coupled to a 40 KW(nominal) generator.
The investors wished to become the functionality of this
arrangement tested :
in a professional (animal food)mill this motor-generator should drive one of this mill devices, equipped with a nominal 20 KW
electric motor.
the 125000 Euro investment experiment failed,
the capacitors became destroyed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
So dear readers, a knowledge about each camper and traveller worldwide can tell and explain to you :
the inductive load needs for the start phase an heavy energetic input,the 5x,10x and by toroidal transformers up to
the 60x value from the nominal worth !

If someone shows to you that with a 3KW generator he/she/it can drive a 3 KW motor nonstop then there is a fake included !
 a soft starter/inrush current limiter arrangement gives maximal a 60% inrush decrease !

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2017, 10:02:36 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »
A little story : 
a.
the Aquino battery company got 190 Mio.US$ investment for the
exploration from a "saltwater battery".
The company became bankrupt,their total productive assets now
in sold for 2,8 Mio. US$. ( Mr. Bill Gates lost some soft earned money :'( sad,really sad)

b.
anybody here knows about William Putt and his patented ergo publicated work (?) :
double windings !
 Why,the improvements now based by which experiments and results ?

c.
there was built a capacitive windings motor with a 40 KW power output,these has been coupled to a 40 KW(nominal) generator.
The investors wished to become the functionality of this
arrangement tested :
in a professional (animal food)mill this motor-generator should drive one of this mill devices, equipped with a nominal 20 KW
electric motor.
the 125000 Euro investment experiment failed,
the capacitors became destroyed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
So dear readers, a knowledge about each camper and traveller worldwide can tell and explain to you :
the inductive load needs for the start phase an heavy energetic input,the 5x,10x and by toroidal transformers up to
the 60x value from the nominal worth !

If someone shows to you that with a 3KW generator he/she/it can drive a 3 KW motor nonstop then there is a fake included !
 a soft starter/inrush current limiter arrangement gives maximal a 60% inrush decrease !

I really do not think many here can grasp the fact that the winding/self capacitance is that small that it makes near to no difference in the devices operation.
Nor dose it seem to compute that the lower the CEMF,the higher the current rise over a given time.
This of course means more waste heat.

Like i said,if you lower the CEMF of an electric motor by say just 10%,you now have a motor that consumes more power,produces more waste heat--and it's not even doing any work yet.
You now place a load on that motor,the CEMF drops even further,the current rises even higher,and the waste heat increases even further.

So you are going backwards in trying to reduce the CEMF--you need to increase it for more efficiency--not reduce it.


Brad

Offline citfta

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2017, 12:16:56 PM »
You are absolutely correct Brad.  I went to the first energy conference that was put on by Rick Frederick and Aaron and that group.  When Peter Lindemann gave a lecture about how we had to reduce the CEMF on a motor I shook my head in wonder.  I never went back to another one of their so-called conferences.

If you want to see the same effect as removing the CEMF of a motor all you have to do is remove the governor on a small engine and hold the throttle wide open.  You get the same effect.  The destruction of the engine.

On a large DC motor with excited field windings you can remove the power to the fields and you have eliminated the CEMF.  You have also now got a motor with no torque and very high armature current.  If you can get it to turn it will accelerate until it flies apart.  I really wonder where the idea of eliminating the CEMF came from other than what I heard Lindemann say.  I guess that is where it started.

Carroll

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2017, 12:16:56 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2017, 02:38:07 AM »
 author=webby1 link=topic=17297.msg508264#msg508264 date=1499980845]


Quote
If the used potential is only voltage then it is an electrostatic motor

First up,an electrostatic motor runs on both current and voltage-power
Second-there is no such thing as an electro!static! motor,as the charges are now moving,and so, no longer static.

Quote
if it comes from amps then it is a "conventional" motor
.

No
In order for current to flow,there must be a potential difference-->voltage drop between two points-unless you are talking about a super conductive ring or coil
So once again,both voltage and current are needed.

Quote
How much torque does 10A make?

A question that makes no sense,and cannot be answered.

Quote
Why do we need to keep increasing the voltage to maintain 10A as the RPM goes up?

Because of the CEMF/BEMF
Your motor is also a generator,that generates power that apposes that which creates it-->this is what reduces the current flow into the motor,as the motor gets up to running speed. If there was no CEMF/BEMF,then the current flow into the motor would be at the maximum value that the winding resistance allows,and/or what the power supply could deliver.

Clarification on opposition.
When we say !apposes!,that means that the motor is generating it's own power of the same potential as that which is supplied to it. This causes an !opposition! to current flow from the power supply,due to the voltage potential between the supply voltage and self induced voltage across the windings to decrease.
So,lets say you have a winding resistance in your motor of 1 ohm,and you drop 10 volts across that 1 ohm resistance. At the instance you do this(before the motor starts to spin),the current flowing through those windings will be 10 amps. As the motor starts to speed up,it generates a voltage across those windings that is of the same potential as the supply voltage. Now lets say your motor has reached it's half way point in it's maximum RPM,and it's self induced voltage across the windings is say 5 volt's. So the potential difference between the supply voltage and self induced voltage is now only 5 volt's. 5 Volts across 1 ohm is 5 amps.
Now your motor is running at it's maximum rpm,and the self induced voltage across the windings is say 8.5 volt's,and so the potential difference between the supply voltage and self induced voltage is only 1.5 volts. 1.5 volts across 1 ohm is only 1.5 amps.

So,startup power was 100 watts
Mid way to max RPM,it was 50 watts
And at max RPM it is only 15 watts
These are only examples,and the motor is unloaded.
But do you see why the CEMF/BEMF needs to be as high as we can make it,and why it should not be removed as being suggested in this thread by some.


So,the faster the motor spins,the more CEMF/BEMF it produces.

Quote
meaning that there is now a constant torque being made at whatever RPM.

Meaning you now have a big resistive heater.

Quote
What if that was from say 10V @ 10A being supplied, what happens when the RPS * torque exceeds 100J?

J? __> Joules?
Power is measured in watts,not joules.
So that is 10V @ 10A=100 watts
With ideal components,an electric motor would consume no power,but in reality,we have no !ideal! components,and so the maximum output power delivered by the motor would be 95% of the input power-at best.This would be a top end motor.

Quote
There is induction in said motor as well as self induction in said motor,, what do you think needs to be controlled and what impact could that have on the mechanical work done by a motor with these things under control.

I dont think !controlled! is the right word to use.
The more CEMF/BEMF an electric motor produces,the more efficient it is.
As i stated above,an electric motor made from !ideal! components,would consume no power,as the CEMF/BEMF would be equal to the supplied EMF,due to there being no losses-such as winding resistance,bearing resistance,core losses-ETC.


Brad

Offline antijon

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2017, 04:51:28 PM »
Quote
The more CEMF/BEMF an electric motor produces,the more efficient it is.

This isn't exactly true Brad. High cemf limits the power of the motor. An easy way to see that is by comparing an open load motor to a full load motor.
Open load= lowest power= highest efficiency
Full load= highest power= lowest efficiency
There's no point in discussing the open load motor because it's not producing any power. An open load motor is like an open transformer, it's only using enough power to maintain its magnetic field.

I understand your line of thinking, but instead of decreasing power transferred to increase efficiency, why not use 100% power in and get more out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2017, 04:51:28 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2017, 05:05:40 PM »
 author=webby1 link=topic=17297.msg508288#msg508288 date=1500125887]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_motor



Quote
As far as most of the rest of your response,, I might suggest that you actually read what you wrote,, several times,, while thinking them over.

My response is correct.

Quote
Did I say zero volts by the way?? didn't think so,,

Quote: If the used potential is only voltage then it is an electrostatic motor, if it comes from amps then it is a "conventional" motor.

So,you quoted voltage only for an electrostatic motor,and amps for a conventional motor.

Your next comment was-Quote: How much torque does 10A make?

Some one dose need to re-read there statements several time's,but it is not me.

Quote
Just as a starting point,, you can find many companies that make these non static static motors,,, it is after all only a label.

It is also not as you stated,where you said electrostatic motors use only voltage.

Quote
but it does not take very much thought to think that if the input voltage did not need to rise with RPM then the motor would spin up to an infinite RPM at the same torque,, not that you have covered that with your response which is what I asked about.

You asked a question-Quote:Why do we need to keep increasing the voltage to maintain 10A as the RPM goes up?
And i answered that question correctly.

Quote
An efficient motor is one that can make the most mechanical work out for the same electrical in,,,

This we know


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2017, 05:10:05 PM »
This isn't exactly true Brad.  An easy way to see that is by comparing an open load motor to a full load motor.
Open load= lowest power= highest efficiency
Full load= highest power= lowest efficiency
There's no point in discussing the open load motor because it's not producing any power. An open load motor is like an open transformer, it's only using enough power to maintain its magnetic field.

I understand your line of thinking, but instead of decreasing power transferred to increase efficiency, why not use 100% power in and get more out.

antijon

Do you know why the power consumption increases when the motor has a mechanical load placed on it?

Quote
High cemf limits the power of the motor.

No it dose not.
The higher the CEMF,the more efficient the motor is.
Answer the question above,and you will then see why.


Brad

Offline citfta

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2017, 05:14:56 PM »

How much torque does 10A make?

That question really doesn't make any sense.  It's like asking how much pressure does a gallon of water have?

Why do we need to keep increasing the voltage to maintain 10A as the RPM goes up?  <== meaning that there is now a constant torque being made at whatever RPM.

You don't normally increase voltage.  You set the voltage and when the motor reaches the speed it needs to create enough CEMF to balance the load and applied voltage then the motor settles at that speed.  Torque is not constant at a given speed.  Torque is constant at a given speed and given current.   A motor at 1800 rpm may be developing very little torque if it is not loaded.  If it is loaded then the current will go up to match the torque to the load and to keep the motor at a speed that will balance the CEMF to the applied voltage and load.


What if that was from say 10V @ 10A being supplied, what happens when the RPS * torque exceeds 100J?

There is induction in said motor as well as self induction in said motor,, what do you think needs to be controlled and what impact could that have on the mechanical work done by a motor with these things under control.

I don't understand what you mean by either of these statements.  What does RPS mean?  And in the second statement there is nothing that needs to be controlled.  The balance between load and current and voltage is all done in the design of the motor and is self-regulating.  I am of course talking about a normal household type induction motor.  When you get into industry then there are all kinds of motors with all kinds of control circuits for doing many different things such as constant precise speed control or constant torque control and many other applications.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2017, 09:19:06 PM »
http://www.google.ch/patents/US3992132

the electromagnets with capacitive windings ?

 

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