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### Author Topic: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.  (Read 49305 times)

#### ageofmagnetizm

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 95
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2018, 07:41:36 AM »
Sparkmen,
once you consider that if multimeter is connected in single circuit
with generator and load - then measurements of AC voltage and resistance
are impropper for comprehension of Powers. While before, Gyulasun and many
others wher persuating me that inclussion of resistors in series will show the true Power
of loaded generator and will produces decelaration of rotor and much lover voltage.
This went to be unrelating to my design of coils on C-Cores and with loads voltage and
RPM is the same as without loads.

Your point is that loads need to be meassured with AC voltmeter connecting in parallel circuit,
I agree that all kinds of measurements are useful, but -
please explaine how do you count powers from so obtained results, on your link no mentions of such calculations.

For exzample: if measuremnts are taken with standard portable fuel generator of known
220 AC voltage being connected to standard 10 watt and tnen 30 watt lamps ,
and voltmeter connecting in paralel circuit shows 100 AC volts and then 10 AC volts.
How do you calculate Power of portable generator, plaese explain this and provide some link so that everybody
can understand why such methods are even beter...

#### Belfior

• Hero Member
• Posts: 534
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2018, 09:29:55 AM »
Would it be possible to just rectify to DC and then use a DC load to check the power? I mean you get a voltage drop from the bridge, but then you have DC without any reactance or frequency bullshit, that might cause measurements to fail.

#### ageofmagnetizm

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 95
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2018, 10:03:03 AM »
Digital multimeters have rectifiers build inside,

But I was asking why meassuments in parallel circuits are better than
maesurment in series, and how one use parallel circuits to calculate power of standart
Generator.

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2018, 08:05:11 PM »
Sparkmen,
once you consider that if multimeter is connected in single circuit
with generator and load - then measurements of AC voltage and resistance
are impropper for comprehension of Powers. While before, Gyulasun and many
others wher persuating me that inclussion of resistors in series will show the true Power
of loaded generator and will produces decelaration of rotor and much lover voltage.
This went to be unrelating to my design of coils on C-Cores and with loads voltage and
RPM is the same as without loads.

Your point is that loads need to be meassured with AC voltmeter connecting in parallel circuit,
I agree that all kinds of measurements are useful, but -
please explaine how do you count powers from so obtained results, on your link no mentions of such calculations.

For exzample: if measuremnts are taken with standard portable fuel generator of known
220 AC voltage being connected to standard 10 watt and tnen 30 watt lamps ,
and voltmeter connecting in paralel circuit shows 100 AC volts and then 10 AC volts.
How do you calculate Power of portable generator, plaese explain this and provide some link so that everybody
can understand why such methods are even better...

Hi ageofmagnetizm,

I travelled abroad for a few days and went through your recent posts now. You asked a question this morning
from sparkmen, I put your text in bold to show what I mean but briefly it is: how you measure and or calculate
power consumed by a load when an AC voltmeter is in parallel with a load.

To help you understand this: you need to have some background knowledge to arrive at a correct answer.

1) standard lamps with their rated 10W or 30W or whatever power should receive 220V AC to behave as a
10W or 30W (or whatever) load, otherwise their loading effect back to the generator will be much less.
Be it either an incandescent or LED or other lamp, they change their current consumption nonlinearly when the
operating voltage differs from 220V.  This is why an AC Ampermeter is needed in series with such lamps to check
actual AC current taken by the lamp and also you would need to use an AC voltmeter across the lamp to see the
actual voltage feeding the lamp.  (I am aware your DMMs cannot measure AC current.)

2) you surely know why a standard 10W lamp may have only 100V AC across it when connected in parallel with a
220V AC generator output which showed the 220V AC output voltage before the lamp was connected?
I think you know why this is so.
If not, then I can give you the explanation later on, question is whether you are going to disregard it or will
accept it. I say this because you wrote above that for your coils on C cores this is unrelated when you load them.

3) even if you measure the AC current with an Ampermeter in series with a load, you have to know whether the
measured AC voltage across the load is in phase or not with that measured AC current: if not, than you need to
estimate the phase angle, phi, somehow (say by a two channel oscilloscope) and  multiply the cosine value of this
angle by the measured RMS voltage and current values. The formula is well known in AC circuits: P=Vrms*Irms*cos(phi)
An incandescent lamp run at low frequencies like 50-60 or say at even 200 Hz will surely cause a negligible phase
shift between its own current and voltage so cos(0°)=1 i.e. its power factor is 1, you surely have heard about this.

So the point is: when you have less AC voltage feeding a bulb which was manufactured for 220V AC operation and
consumes its rated 10W or 30W (or whatever) power only when it is run from 220V AC, the only way to know how
many Watts it actually takes from a generator is to measure its current and feeding voltage in RMS and multiply the
two values. If the lamp is say a kind of fluorescense or say a LED, then the phase angle between the current and
voltage is to be measured too.

Gyula

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2018, 08:15:54 PM »
Digital multimeters have rectifiers build inside,

Correct.  But this has nothing to do with what member Belfior suggested above.
Understand: he meant to use a full wave diode bridge across the output of the generator coil and the DC output
of the bridge is fed into a puffer capacitor and then your load is run from this DC voltage. This way the measurements
of DC current feeding the load and the DC voltage across the load can be measured with your DMMs because they can
measure DC current (but not AC current).  Measuring DC quantities gives results that are very very close to reality.

Quote
But I was asking why meassuments in parallel circuits are better than
maesurment in series, and how one use parallel circuits to calculate power of standart
Generator.
....

"Why meassuments in parallel circuits are better than measurment in series..."  I can answer this, this is point # 2 in
my above answer too.  I wonder whether you would make a short video on the parallel measurements?

Gyula

#### ageofmagnetizm

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 95
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2018, 09:44:40 PM »
Hi Gyula,
I have to point on the fact that all those methodes are exellent for knowing everything about
because that generator gives 10 or more watts and doubtfully that shining 30 watts lamp means that that generator
is not weaker than 30 watts and so on even without multimetes connecting to circuits.

What would you say on that?

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2018, 09:56:55 PM »
Well, I would say that if you do the parallel measurement instead of the series, then you (we) would also know the generator power it actually produces while feeding the load.

#### ageofmagnetizm

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 95
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2018, 08:48:12 AM »
Gyulasun, the key word you've just produced : "also".

I've collected bunch of various loads from 5 to 100 watts (LEDs, incandecents, thermoelectric)
and 've meassured AC voltages and resistances using both discussed here methods
and ' have calculated powers of all resistors and 've found that independetly from methods
- powers of resistors are same and matching powers given by manufacturers.

I see nothing amazing in it because that physical properties of objects are independable from
methods of meassuments - hence both methods are equally gooood,
same is fo calculation methods where AC voltage and resistance are sufficient for calculation of power
which is the same when its calculated from known current and resistance and/or current and voltage.

Amazing is how rational people change when they face something what simingly contradict to theirs beliefs,
or perhaps people change because that posting commercial links they earn several coints so to say...

#### Belfior

• Hero Member
• Posts: 534
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2018, 09:16:12 AM »
Yes it is amazing how rational people can use AC multimeters to measure currents and voltages that are not 50 or 60 Hz and still think they are getting accurate measurements.

That is why I suggested going through a full bridge rectifier to a load and then do the measurements with a multimeter. DC is DC no matter what multimeter you have and there is no frequency to deviate the measurements.

You can go on for 6 months with this series&paraller dance that you have OR go through a full bridge rectifier and put an end to this

#### ageofmagnetizm

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 95
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2018, 09:31:31 AM »
Belfior,

Rectifiers where discussed on the second page her and there two links to wikipedia explaining
rectifiers and rectifiers in DMMs, also count that DMM is build for meassuments of AC currents
Within 40 to 400 herts with allowed +/- 1% of presission.

And and here we've made one more page dedicated to obsessions round multimeters while no discussions
of generators.

HYPEREFFICIENT AF PMG-MMEIR 4E8M.
Construction and methods of utilization and results of testing of

the Axial Flux Permanent Magnets Generator of Magneto Mechanical Electro Inducting Rings .
Generator is made as experimental prototype and during various testing has
manifested hyperefficiency - converting energy so that output of electric energy is more than 1000%
of the input of mechanical energy

#### Belfior

• Hero Member
• Posts: 534
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2018, 11:53:59 AM »
Belfior,

Rectifiers where discussed on the second page her and there two links to wikipedia explaining
rectifiers and rectifiers in DMMs, also count that DMM is build for meassuments of AC currents
Within 40 to 400 herts with allowed +/- 1% of presission.

And and here we've made one more page dedicated to obsessions round multimeters while no discussions
of generators.

HYPEREFFICIENT AF PMG-MMEIR 4E8M.
Construction and methods of utilization and results of testing of

the Axial Flux Permanent Magnets Generator of Magneto Mechanical Electro Inducting Rings .
Generator is made as experimental prototype and during various testing has
manifested hyperefficiency - converting energy so that output of electric energy is more than 1000%
of the input of mechanical energy

thx Age!

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2018, 12:22:00 PM »
Hi ageofmagnetizm,

From your posts it clearly comes that you consider a voltmeter as the load for your generator.

1 MegaOhm internal resistance in both DC and AC voltage measurement modes. And you connected
"bunch of various loads from 5 to 100 Watts"  in series with the 1 MOhm voltmeter and you claim
you have a super efficient generator.

This is what is "amazing".

If you doubt your DMMs have about 1 MegaOhm internal resistance in voltmeter mode, then please take
them to the laboratory you earlier mentioned and have them checked.  Or see my notice in the PS at the bottom.

I measured my M-830B DMM with another DMM, see my earlier post here
http://overunity.com/17293/a3c-x-magnets-and-pmf/msg520991/#msg520991  but then you rejected my request
to check your DMMs for yourself as an off topic.

All this means that you have not reported any correct load test on your generator you claim as hyper efficient
and you want us believe it by calculations, not by measurements.

"Following is table of values of testing of AF PMG-MMEIR 4E8M having drive motor turning generator on two different RPMs.

RPM           ohms      volts      watts
400           448         82         15
1400           448       270       163   End of quote"

These Watt numbers are not the results of loaded measurements, you calculated them from the
DC resistance of the generator coils and the unloaded AC voltages your DMM showed when you
connected it in series with the load.   This way the 1 MOHm internal resistance of your DMM prevented
the direct connection of the load to the generator because it was in series with any load you intended to use.

You have NOT proved by any correct measurements you have a hyper or super efficient generator,  unfortunately.

Gyula

PS here is a review of the DMM you have: https://www.petervis.com/meters/dt830d/dt830d.html
and here is the circuit diagram of the DT830D DMM you use and it can easily be figured out what value internal
resistors are used for the DC and AC voltmeter inputs to prevent any loading effects on any voltage source
you happen to measure:

Of course it is normal that voltmeters have high value internal resistances, the cheaper DMMs have about
0.5 to 1 MegaOhm while the other types have about 5 to 10 MegaOhm, to prevent any loading on the measured voltage.

Gyulasun, the key word you've just produced : "also".

I've collected bunch of various loads from 5 to 100 watts (LEDs, incandecents, thermoelectric)
and 've meassured AC voltages and resistances using both discussed here methods
and ' have calculated powers of all resistors and 've found that independetly from methods
- powers of resistors are same and matching powers given by manufacturers.

I see nothing amazing in it because that physical properties of objects are independable from
methods of meassuments - hence both methods are equally gooood,
same is fo calculation methods where AC voltage and resistance are sufficient for calculation of power
which is the same when its calculated from known current and resistance and/or current and voltage.

Amazing is how rational people change when they face something what simingly contradict to theirs beliefs,
or perhaps people change because that posting commercial links they earn several coints so to say...

#### ageofmagnetizm

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 95
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2018, 02:29:05 PM »
Gyula, here on this forum is place just for your intersts:

http://overunity.com/problems-and-solutions-for-accurate-measurements/#.WvrPr05RU1I

Count that my claims are in patent offices and here I just share information,
without intentiontion persuate everybody, if nobody ask me about princeples of engineering,
Methods of increasing of output, processes implemented and processes which are validating, -
then its just OK, - I'll have more time to fulfill my duties insteed of chatting the same simple routines.

#### citfta

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1050
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2018, 02:38:40 PM »
ageofmagnetizm,

You have had at least three different people that have many years of experience try to explain to you why your method of measuring is wrong.  You still refuse to listen.  Why?  Why not just do the measurements that gyula has asked for?  Are you afraid your generator will fail the test?  I actually think your generator might have some interesting things going on with it, but there is no way of knowing if you refuse to use proper measurement procedures.

Respectfully,
Carroll

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: A3C & X-MAGNETS AND PMF.
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2018, 04:15:28 PM »
Taras, it is one thing you have patent applications: it does not prove your generator is super efficient,
claims written in any patent applications are just words you type here on this forum or elsewhere.

I knew that you were again neglecting to give straight answers to relevant questions with respect to

has this feature I quote from your blog:

"Mechanical 16.2 watts power input is being converted into 47, 89, 119 and finally 163 watts electrical output,
what means that energy conversion rate is approximately 1000%."  These were your data:

Number of coils              ohms        volts      watts
1                                     112            73           47
2                                     229          143           89
3                                     339          201         119
4                                     448          270         163

One thing is: you calculated the power from the appropiate generator coils DC resistance, R, and the unloaded AC output
voltage your DMM showed, by using this formula for the power:  P=V2/R     No real or meaningful load applied.

And there is another thing in the background I have not mentioned yet.  It is the DC resistance of the generator coils.

Let's say just as an example: the 163 W output power is taken out by a load from your generator coils, ok?
And suppose your DMM shows the 270 V AC output voltage, now just calculate the output current that is involved by
the alleged 163 W output power, ok?  Suppose for simplicity that this current is in phase with the voltage, then the
load current I=163W/270V=0.6 Amper. In case this current would indeed flow in your generator coils, it would cause
an internal voltage drop inside the coils as: V= 0.6 A*448 Ohm = 268.8 Volt. This would mean that if you would really
take out 0.6 Amper from your generator, the earlier (unloaded) output voltage of 270 V would quasi 'disappear'
(or at least significantly get reduced) from the load which was supposed to take out the 163 W from your generator.

Of course, finally there is the question of input power: how it increases when you really load the generator coils by
the 47,  89,  119 and 163 W output power numbers.

Gyula