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Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: Magluvin on May 09, 2017, 10:10:52 PM

Title: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 09, 2017, 10:10:52 PM
This thread is for as the topic states. We are not necessarily looking at resonance, but it is not excluded. The reason I am putting it here is some of what I have ideas for, the timing of the coils resonance may be an indicator of the timing for the switching...... So in my book, we can see the effect of resonance in the very first peak of the output, 1/4 of a sine wave, even if we kill it off at peak to collect from it.

Will put up some circuits I plan to try later tonight.


Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 10, 2017, 09:21:06 PM
Here is the first circuit to test.  It will need to be expanded upon as to how to get it to have a continuous pulse train. So loading the caps should work. Basically a switching supply but testing if there is any advantage collecting from the 2 coils if they are wound bifi or if it were a typical transformer winding. So if a typical tranformer winding is made in comparison, its probably best to not have 1 layer for one winding and the other winding on top as it is as close to being bifi as it gets without winding 1 and 2 side by side. Ive almost got my new bobbins going.  I have issue with thin wall bobbins where the pressure of winding the wire pushes out on the wall and the winding loses its form, messes with you wile winding. ugh  1/4in plexi walls on plexi tube.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Dog-One on May 10, 2017, 10:01:29 PM
Some concepts shown in the attached application note.

I took this a step further using a microcontroller and state machine to effectively
charge multiple caps while only a single cap fires.  This gives more time for the
capacitors to come up to full charge and subsequently allows faster firing rate.
The only real drawback is that it takes a lot of isolated switching circuitry and
drivers.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: tinman on May 12, 2017, 02:54:38 PM
Here is the first circuit to test.  It will need to be expanded upon as to how to get it to have a continuous pulse train. So loading the caps should work. Basically a switching supply but testing if there is any advantage collecting from the 2 coils if they are wound bifi or if it were a typical transformer winding. So if a typical tranformer winding is made in comparison, its probably best to not have 1 layer for one winding and the other winding on top as it is as close to being bifi as it gets without winding 1 and 2 side by side. Ive almost got my new bobbins going.  I have issue with thin wall bobbins where the pressure of winding the wire pushes out on the wall and the winding loses its form, messes with you wile winding. ugh  1/4in plexi walls on plexi tube.

Mags

Mags

Try using your BPC in a Joule Thief,and see what happens.


Brad
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 12, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
Mags

Try using your BPC in a Joule Thief,and see what happens.


Brad

Well a typical JT doesnt collect from both coils as one is only a trigger.

Will be working on it this weekend

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 12, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
Thanks for the thread Mags.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 12, 2017, 04:50:40 PM
Thanks Jim

Im hoping that this is where we will find differences between a regular coil or even to say regular transformer windings and bifi.

Brad suggested the JT with a bifi and I say that is in line with a Bedini motor circuit. So they can be tried using a bifi and modified to collect from both coils in comparison to a typically wound JT. Not sure how that may affect the jt operation but Im sure it can be worked out if there are issues of taking from the trigger coil also. And even try a trifi with 1 trigger and 2 output/driver coils etc. I have reason to believe there is a difference and we have to check.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: tinman on May 13, 2017, 12:53:42 AM
Well a typical JT doesnt collect from both coils as one is only a trigger.

Will be working on it this weekend

Mags

You dont think ?.

Brad
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 13, 2017, 01:10:41 AM
You dont think ?.

Brad

In a typical JT, where is the energy from the trigger coil expended?

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: tinman on May 13, 2017, 01:50:38 AM
In a typical JT, where is the energy from the trigger coil expended?

Mags

Through the base/emitter junction of the transistor,and 1k resistor.

During the off time of the transistor,is when the LED lights.
The trigger coil at this time go's negative at the base,and so also at the emitter.
The LED's negative is connected to the emitter of the transistor.

You have a scope Mag's--place your scope across the 1k resistor,and have a look for your self.  ;)
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 13, 2017, 02:58:28 AM
Through the base/emitter junction of the transistor,and 1k resistor.

During the off time of the transistor,is when the LED lights.
The trigger coil at this time go's negative at the base,and so also at the emitter.
The LED's negative is connected to the emitter of the transistor.

You have a scope Mag's--place your scope across the 1k resistor,and have a look for your self.  ;)

Ill have to wind a reg and bifi to test the difference.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 13, 2017, 09:10:20 PM
When winding 2 coils, a regular winding and a bifi, we should think a bit.  If we just wind 200 turns on 1 bobbin and 100 turns of bifi series connect, then both have the same resistance as the wire for each is equal in total length.  So got to thinking we should center tap the singlefi coil so as to be able to do things that can also be done with the bifi.  Then the issue is if we do a layered singlefi with the tap at 100 turns, there is going to be a difference in the first 100 turns and the second 100 turns as it will take more wire to do the outer 100 turns than the inner 100 turns. So it seems the only way to do it is to have the sifi  ;D as individual coils side by side so each can be of equal wire length just like the bifi.  If there is another way I would welcome the input. Im just wanting to make sure that testing the difference between bifi and sifi that both coils need to be of the same dimensions, number of turns and same length of wire for each conductor. Maybe yawl think Im nuts. But I am :o   

So instead of making the bobbins like I said, I went to ace hdwr and they have a large selection of plastic washers and spacers. It cost just under $20 but it is worth not having to make them.  A bit of sanding and superglue with accelerator and they will be fine bobbins I also sand and smooth the inner edge of the large washers so while trying to get a perfect wind the wire doesnt catch and kink the wire, etc

I use a laser rpm meter set for rotation count and decent variable speed cordless drill to wind. After the first coil is on its last layer the rpm meter gives me the turn count for the next coil.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 13, 2017, 09:19:15 PM
I use Ryobi 18v cordless drills. The larger ones seem to have a min speed as in it can be just a hair jerky between on and off. Just picked up the Ryobi 12v mini drill and it is much better at the low end for more control. $49 1 batt n charger.   Could have used that control when I was winding my ezyspin lasersaber motor. 24 coils, 3200 turns each 42awg.  A few broke before the full wind mostly due to the lack of control of the drill.  Just a tidbit.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: citfta on May 13, 2017, 10:27:06 PM
I like your idea for counting the turns.  If you want to measure the wire there is an easy way to do that also.  Just go to Lowe's or Harbor Freight and get one of those measuring tools that rolls along on the ground and measures feet.  It is pretty easy to make a jig to guide the wire onto and off the wheel.  I make a single wrap around the wheel.  I just get my wire started onto my spool with a nice long tail and then reset the counter to zero and start winding.  Then I only have to watch  the counter once in while until I get close and then I just stop winding when I hit the number of feet of wire I want.  I recently wound a couple of coils with a trifilar winding using this method.  Just fed all the wires at the same time but really only needed to measure one of the wires as they all went on together.  That way I made sure I got the same amount of wire on both the coils I wound even though they might not have gotten wound exactly the same with some wires overlapping or whatever.

Carroll
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 13, 2017, 10:47:03 PM
I like your idea for counting the turns.  If you want to measure the wire there is an easy way to do that also.  Just go to Lowe's or Harbor Freight and get one of those measuring tools that rolls along on the ground and measures feet.  It is pretty easy to make a jig to guide the wire onto and off the wheel.  I make a single wrap around the wheel.  I just get my wire started onto my spool with a nice long tail and then reset the counter to zero and start winding.  Then I only have to watch  the counter once in while until I get close and then I just stop winding when I hit the number of feet of wire I want.  I recently wound a couple of coils with a trifilar winding using this method.  Just fed all the wires at the same time but really only needed to measure one of the wires as they all went on together.  That way I made sure I got the same amount of wire on both the coils I wound even though they might not have gotten wound exactly the same with some wires overlapping or whatever.

Carroll

Hey Carrol

It gets tedious at the far ends of the layers to keep it neat and even more so with trifi. Kinda gota flip the 3 at the ends. Im sure u know.

Good ideas.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 14, 2017, 02:23:20 AM
nice ideas. Just wound pancakes with copper ribbon. Got some gardening "budding" tape to use between the layers. I laid out 5m of the acetate stuck one length of the copper ribbon, turned it over did the the other side and then rolled it all up with an extra layer of the acetate.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 15, 2017, 12:58:57 AM
nice ideas. Just wound pancakes with copper ribbon. Got some gardening "budding" tape to use between the layers. I laid out 5m of the acetate stuck one length of the copper ribbon, turned it over did the the other side and then rolled it all up with an extra layer of the acetate.

Had thought of how that would be done.  So the tape and copper dont get funky while winding?

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 15, 2017, 02:10:19 AM
Had though of how that would be done.  So the tape and copper dont get funky while winding?

Mags
The copper has adhesive backing the acetate no adhesion. So it was relatively simple. I then just wind it on to a coffee plunger handle and frame. See attached..
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 15, 2017, 04:04:24 AM
Hey Jim.

Saw your coil at OUR.  Have you measured the inductance and capacitance and resistance yet?

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 15, 2017, 04:54:19 AM
Hey Jim.

Saw your coil at OUR.  Have you measured the inductance and capacitance and resistance yet?

Mags
Not yet - hopefully will get some bench time tonight.  Want find it's resonant freq as well
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 15, 2017, 07:13:33 AM
I wound my first half of the single winding as 1 separate coils with just thin plastic that you peal off of large velcro and fixed a large plastic washer temporarily to wind the 1st coil, then superglue the winding with super thin ca and remove temp washer. Superglue doesnt stick to the peal plastic. Left it so the second adjacent winding process didnt pull on the windings of the 1st . I used hobby shop super thin super glue to hold the bobbins together and to hold the windings together.

I was surprised that each was 13.15 mh.  I used 30awg from RS magnet wire. 1 roll each. Didnt count the turns, just using the full rolls. 22.5ohm and 42pf between coils.

Pic showing the sifi coils finished and winding the bifi. Will finish that and put up the details then.  Im threatening myself to wind a 3rd sifi but the center tap thing would have differences between the 2 coils layered.  This should be good though. Can test transformer action with both. Can JT it. Can do more than just testing the difference between a 1 wire coil and just the ends of a series bifi.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 15, 2017, 11:23:38 AM
Just finished the bifi coil. Had to turn by hand to keep it neat. 

36mh and 16.4nf.   On sim it rings at 6.5khz. Will test tomorrow to see if thats the case.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 16, 2017, 10:07:44 PM
Didnt get to play yesterday. 

The bifi rings at 12.98khz.  Seems odd that calculations dont work out. ??? This was with 1v pulse.

The individual bifi windings read 9mh and the sifi individual windings measure 13mh.  But both set for series are the same at 35mh...

Anyway, working on a test setup....

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 16, 2017, 11:58:40 PM
The first test between the 2 coils will be the circuit I first posted, and reposted below. It can be done with both sifi and bifi that I have made.  Again, the sifi is 2 directly side by side individual coils so that each of them is identical to eachother, similarly to the bifi windings being identical. To do the sifi in separate layers at the same turns, or even the same length of wire(75ft according to package) as I have done, the 2 sifi windings would not be identical and making the sifi and bifi comparisons would not be a totally fair comparison.  And all 4 coils are very near 22.5ohm and both sifi and bifi in series are 35mh.  So it should be a fair comparison.

The circuit below would be something that could be tried on a Bedini bifi winding, and very possibly a JT winding, of which I will try that as brad said, but with these coils. Like I said before, the circuit below is different than saying the JT trigger coil is delivering power to say a resistor that is put there for the JT to run as required by the user. That energy isnt really looked at as an output 'usually' only the led output.. Here we want to see if the bifi windings outputing separately but at the same time as shown below can beat out the same circuit with the sifi. And the caps on the output can be resistors or resistors added across the caps as load to monitor continuous operation.

So we pulse 1 winding and when the pulse releases, we collect from both windings individually.  If there is a big difference between the 2 sifi face to face windings as in if the coil that is not being pulsed ends with much lower output than the pulsed winding, all in comparison of the bifi which should have equal outputs in theory, then I will have to consider a different sifi winding technique to compare that aspect with the sifi coils alone. But then again we can test pulsing both windings in series and see if there is any difference in individual outputs which would eliminate the winding issue of the sifi. Lots to do and no time to do it. Used to not be that way for me.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 17, 2017, 12:21:13 AM
One more thing.... Not sure if this was brought up before...

The total for both coils is 35mh  The sifi individual coil were 13.5mh and the bifi were 9mh each.  The calculated resonance for the bifi using 35mh and 16.4nf is 6.1khz and the scope shot is 12.98khz.  So I recalculated for 9mh which is each windings measurement and we end up with 13.1khz.  So we have to only use the inductance of 1 bifi winding and the total capacitance to calculate the resonance of the bifi. 

Seems like there is an oddity there. Like the 2 bifi windings maybe ignore each others inductance at resonant freq????? ???   new puzzle part?   In series it measures just like the series sifi coil, but apparently at resonance the working inductance of the bifi is 9mh.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 17, 2017, 11:28:44 AM
One more thing.... Not sure if this was brought up before...

The total for both coils is 35mh  The sifi individual coil were 13.5mh and the bifi were 9mh each.  The calculated resonance for the bifi using 35mh and 16.4nf is 6.1khz and the scope shot is 12.98khz.  So I recalculated for 9mh which is each windings measurement and we end up with 13.1khz.  So we have to only use the inductance of 1 bifi winding and the total capacitance to calculate the resonance of the bifi. 

Seems like there is an oddity there. Like the 2 bifi windings maybe ignore each others inductance at resonant freq? ??? ? ???   new puzzle part?   In series it measures just like the series sifi coil, but apparently at resonance the working inductance of the bifi is 9mh.

Mags


Edit: my msg was lost somewhere.
That's a nice low frequency mags. I have not yet measured inductance. My ribbon TBP is ringing at 447k(sine) & 450k(square) Yellow is across a 100k resistor in series. Blue is across pocket Vellemann SG running off its DC charger.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 17, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
The rigol gives a lot of info.  Nice

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 17, 2017, 11:58:29 AM
The rigol gives a lot of info.  Nice

Mags


Still working out how to use it. Let me know if you want anything measured! These are good experiments for to learn its functions that's for sure.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 18, 2017, 03:36:35 AM
Im finding that you can reliably calculate the res freq of a bifi coil by reading its winding to winding capacitance and the inductance of just 1 winding and run it through an LC calculator. It seems most are running the coils to find the res freq then calculating that with the total series inductance to come up with the capacitance. Need to look into it further. That way doesnt give us a tangible capacitance that we can verify. But here with just using 1 winding inductance and the inter winding cap value, I am getting a .1khz accuracy at finding the res freq without testing. 2 coils tested and next will be the big pancake I made. If it works there also Id say its conclusive and we need to look at these coils a little closer.

Also, was just playing before I go home to eat, if we have the bifi in series, when we only operate 1 winding  and leave the other winding attached at the middle and its other end free, the single working winding will resonate at the bifi res freq. ;D Didnt know that. ;)   So if we are working 1 winding only and the far end of the other winding is loose, what inductance should we be looking at now?

Lots of stuff to do.  All this stuff is very simple testing n probing. And Im finding things I never thought I would find.  Very interesting coil indeed. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: evostars on May 18, 2017, 03:39:02 PM
pulsing the coil, like ringing a bell. short high voltage infinite small rise and fall time, hairpin pulses, like the hammer that rings a bell.

I use this, and highly recomend it:
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/shop/cyber-circuits/pulse-modulator-ocxi (http://www.rmcybernetics.com/shop/cyber-circuits/pulse-modulator-ocxi)
It gives these hairpin pulses, if the impedance of the load is small enough.

Best would be pulsing the bifilar coil, from both ends, with opposite polarity. (discharging a capacitor with both leads at the same time).
It could be done with a relais, charging both leads at one possition, and discharging both leads into the coil at the other possition.

Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: evostars on May 18, 2017, 03:44:49 PM
One more thing.... Not sure if this was brought up before...

The total for both coils is 35mh  The sifi individual coil were 13.5mh and the bifi were 9mh each.  The calculated resonance for the bifi using 35mh and 16.4nf is 6.1khz and the scope shot is 12.98khz.  So I recalculated for 9mh which is each windings measurement and we end up with 13.1khz.  So we have to only use the inductance of 1 bifi winding and the total capacitance to calculate the resonance of the bifi. 

Seems like there is an oddity there. Like the 2 bifi windings maybe ignore each others inductance at resonant freq????? ???   new puzzle part?   In series it measures just like the series sifi coil, but apparently at resonance the working inductance of the bifi is 9mh.

Mags
very interesting!
could this have to do with the phase alignment (0 degrees) of the dielectric and magnetic field at its resonant frequency?
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 18, 2017, 06:19:49 PM
pulsing the coil, like ringing a bell. short high voltage infinite small rise and fall time, hairpin pulses, like the hammer that rings a bell.

I use this, and highly recomend it:
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/shop/cyber-circuits/pulse-modulator-ocxi (http://www.rmcybernetics.com/shop/cyber-circuits/pulse-modulator-ocxi)
It gives these hairpin pulses, if the impedance of the load is small enough.

Best would be pulsing the bifilar coil, from both ends, with opposite polarity. (discharging a capacitor with both leads at the same time).
It could be done with a relais, charging both leads at one possition, and discharging both leads into the coil at the other possition.

So far these tests have just been apply power and release with a switch.  It gives me so far the ability to see the res freq of the coils. Just showing that some tests do not have to be so sophisticated yet get the job done.

Thanks for the info

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 18, 2017, 06:44:26 PM
very interesting!
could this have to do with the phase alignment (0 degrees) of the dielectric and magnetic field at its resonant frequency?


Im not sure why yet. But so far 2 coils show i can consistently find the res freq by calculating the inter winding capacitance and the inductance of just 1 winding of the bifi coil.  Was conveying this at OUR and TK seems to think its all wrong. Yet the numbers are not wrong. Sooo  we continue on and present the findings here.

To me it seems strange that TK would not find it interesting, and he was the only one there to reply to my posts on this.  Like if the numbers work, then why insist that the only way to find the res freq is by testing and then find the 'actual' capacitance through formulation?  It bugs me that no one seem to find this interesting enough to say hey, lets look at that some more...  Well I am.

I dont want to start argument, but I do want discussion.  If as TK says the only way to find the distributed capacitance is by testing for res freq and then only are we able to account for the capacitance, then I have to argue that.  It is not a capacitance that can be seen nor measured in any way other than testing and formulation, while on the other hand, if we measure the winding to winding capacitance, of which is tangible, and can be isolated and measured, and we use that to calculate the res freq of the coils with just the inductance of 1 winding and come up with very accurate outcomes, then what am I to believe?  Should I believe in the invisible, undetectable capacitance that can only be determined by calculations, or do i believe in the capacitance that is a real thing and consider that the bifi could very well have strange induction properties? Why is it so difficult to imagine that there is an 'invisible' strange induction effect between the 2 windings, yet believe in a capacitance that is not able to be seen nor detected other than through formulation.

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 18, 2017, 10:37:04 PM
One word sums it up......damn.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV7n0EY2h0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV7n0EY2h0)




He hits you with a wet phone book....in the face.....with the mother of all nuggets.....find it!


Sweet video TK from the guy who dislikes scopes and proper measurement.....

Im hoping you are referring to using inductive magnetic kick from the small coil to the bifi. ;D   Thats pulsing in my book.  ;)

Mags
 
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Dog-One on May 19, 2017, 12:13:46 AM
Look deeper....

Augment the wave with an impulse.    :)
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: TinselKoala on May 19, 2017, 01:44:56 AM
Mags, when you break the series connection between the Files of a Tesla Bifilar coil, it is no longer a TBF coil. It has become a Spirinductpacitor. (tm TKLabs). When you reconnect the series connection to make it a TBF coil again, everything changes. You can't measure the one type and then expect its values to apply to the other type.

Get out your capacitor meter and measure the capacitance of the fully connected TBF coil. I doubt if you can get any reading at all from the capacitor meter. Does this mean it has no capacitance? No, of course not, because we know that it does. The way to measure the capacitance of the TBF coil, in contrast to the Spirinductpacitor, is to measure the resonant frequency and then calculate the capacitance.

After all, this is how many L C meters do it, they just do it internally where you can't see it happening.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 19, 2017, 09:02:33 AM
Mags, when you break the series connection between the Files of a Tesla Bifilar coil, it is no longer a TBF coil. It has become a Spirinductpacitor. (tm TKLabs). When you reconnect the series connection to make it a TBF coil again, everything changes. You can't measure the one type and then expect its values to apply to the other type.

Get out your capacitor meter and measure the capacitance of the fully connected TBF coil. I doubt if you can get any reading at all from the capacitor meter. Does this mean it has no capacitance? No, of course not, because we know that it does. The way to measure the capacitance of the TBF coil, in contrast to the Spirinductpacitor, is to measure the resonant frequency and then calculate the capacitance.

After all, this is how many L C meters do it, they just do it internally where you can't see it happening.

Im, yes, revisiting the possibility of something special in the bifilar coil. Been thinking clearer than I have in the past couple years, for reasons Ill explain in a thread I made here on cell phones and headaches... So some ideas are coming out on this that I never thought of before and Im going to lay it all out here...

The idea that we can determine the res freq of a bifi by calculating the measured separate winding capacitance and the inductance of just 1 winding is in the least, a tool. For some that may be valuable.

Just like the theory I had on the cap to cap deal that the 50% loss is not due to resistance, and resistance only changes the time it takes to level out the charge, and then I proved it, without a cap on the bench, I have that kinda going on right now with this coil. So Im going with it. :P ;D

That cap to cap 50% loss just 'really' didnt seem right to me, even before I thought more on the possibility of 'if' we could count the electrons being taken from the + of a cap and shoving them into the = of the cap, we could determine the voltage pressure in the cap by that count alone. So is the resistance eating up electrons in the transfer, or would the count be the same in an 'ideal' situation?  And Im kinda at that point in the back of my mind that is saying, something isnt right here with this bifi coil according to what others are claiming, as in there is nothing special there.  Not saying anyone is misconstruing info, just saying there are some things to do that I havnt really seen nor thought of before with this. So thats where this thread is going. ;)   Ill just post it all over here at OU. No interest in this over there really.

Mags
 
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 19, 2017, 10:47:48 AM
Augment the wave with an impulse.    :)
like a tether ball?
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 19, 2017, 06:28:35 PM
Hi all, Hi magluvin, had a thought about the 50-50 capacitor deal.
It is progressively, acting as two batteries in parallel.
The receiving capacitor, is incrementally acting like another voltage source, much like a coil being induced by a magnet.
So, our primary feed capacitor is fighting more and more over time against the receiving capacitors voltage source.
So i agree, it is not due to ohmic resistance.
I wonder if some arrangement can be made in the 50-50 capacitor setup, that would mimic two same polarity magnetic flux sources, entering a ferromagnetic core.
As long as the core is not saturated, it will accept the flux and not fight against the incoming flux.
We need the receiving capacitor to stop fighting against the feeding capacitor.
While writing this, i just had an interesting idea for a rotating generator.
peace love light
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 19, 2017, 08:05:39 PM
Hi all, Hi magluvin, had a thought about the 50-50 capacitor deal.
It is progressively, acting as two batteries in parallel.
The receiving capacitor, is incrementally acting like another voltage source, much like a coil being induced by a magnet.
So, our primary feed capacitor is fighting more and more over time against the receiving capacitors voltage source.
So i agree, it is not due to ohmic resistance.
I wonder if some arrangement can be made in the 50-50 capacitor setup, that would mimic two same polarity magnetic flux sources, entering a ferromagnetic core.
As long as the core is not saturated, it will accept the flux and not fight against the incoming flux.
We need the receiving capacitor to stop fighting against the feeding capacitor.
While writing this, i just had an interesting idea for a rotating generator.
peace love light

Im not saying there is free energy there in any way. The discussion was whether the 50% energy loss in doing so was due to heat in resistance, no matter the value above 0ohm, or my argument that the resistance heat is not the cause of the 50% loss. The claim on the resistance loss side was that if the caps had no resistance, ideal, then the end result would be 7.07v in each cap from 1 10v cap.  But that is not the case. If we we able to count the electrons, just like we could count water mass/volume in buckets, then just by that count alone we could determine the voltage in the cap, every time.  So resistance doesnt take electrons from the system, it only slows them down in their travels. The ideal caps would still have 5v each as the count of electrons would be the same as a real world circuit.

So where is the loss?  Well in real world with resistance, if you wanted to generate heat, then good, you used that supposed 50% loss and it is now not a loss. But if there was no resistance and no heat, then where did we lose 50%?? I say we lost is stupidly by not making any use of the current during the transfer from cap to cap.

Now if it were ideal again and we used an inductor with say a 0v drop diode, then the transfer would be a complete transfer, the 10v cap would end at 0v and the 0v cap would end at 10v.... We used the current in the cap to cap transfer to energize the inductor(flywheel) and it uses that lost 50% to pump every last bit from the source cap to the receiving cap.  But we can also have that situation in the real world, and minus the diode voltage drop and some loss(not 50% at all) in resistance only due to voltage division in the circuit( of which we dont have in the actual cap to cap mostly due to only 2 components other than resistance).

Anyway, thats that. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: penno64 on May 19, 2017, 10:40:28 PM
A wet phone book -

One pulse in
Multiple pulses out

aka Richard willis - magnacoaster

Pen
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: TinselKoala on May 19, 2017, 11:01:54 PM
One word sums it up......damn.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV7n0EY2h0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV7n0EY2h0)




He hits you with a wet phone book....in the face.....with the mother of all nuggets.....find it!


Sweet video TK from the guy who dislikes scopes and proper measurement.....

Thank you for posting the link to my video. I hope people find my videos entertaining and educational and informative.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: verpies on May 19, 2017, 11:13:58 PM
...if it were ideal again and we used an inductor with say a 0v drop diode, then the transfer would be a complete transfer, the 10v cap would end at 0v and the 0v cap would end at 10v...
Yes, ...or -10V

P.S.
At low currents, a MOSFET synchronous rectifier acts almost like a 0V diode.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 20, 2017, 07:40:14 AM
Yes, ...or -10V

P.S.
At low currents, a MOSFET synchronous rectifier acts almost like a 0V diode.


I have heard of them and read a little, I would like to try them.  Any special part no you can recommend as The mosfet Im working with right now are  great switchers but are most eff at like just above 4v, so just wondering if there are some that are more flexible.  I use them for vape hukahs to switch on 3.7v to .2ohm coils. The transistor on res is .0014ohm. Doesnt get beyond just warm without a heat sink. But i really like the low ohm characteristics.

A lot of vape devices use a control board with color display and dc-dc boost with power control levels.  The guy om building them for got into the biz of renting them at night clubs and was doing good till the hukah were failing and the company went under. So im bulding new ones and im just paralleling  18650 cells and running low ohm coils, but on the handles I put 2 push buttons one for full power and one for a lower setting. All the circuits Ive seen either want to use pwm to lower the power or dc-dc boost for more.  I just use a 15k to hold the gate at 0v and the high button puts direct source + and the low button I use a 6.8k res to cause a V division between it and the 15k and it works.  So now the cust dont complain that the thing aint working right because they dont know how to adjust it cuz they are drunk, so just a high n low.. Simple.  No power switches just plug a handle in either side or both and that is the on switch for all the lights, etc.

Has a thick beam laser on top. The new one Im finishing has a laser and a wobble mirror on a cd motor to make a laser cone. Looks crazy when the blow the fog on it.

I make it all with hand tools.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 20, 2017, 09:09:02 AM
I have heard of them and read a little, I would like to try them.  Any special part no you can recommend as The mosfet Im working with right now are  great switchers but are most eff at like just above 4v, so just wondering if there are some that are more flexible.  I use them for vape hukahs to switch on 3.7v to .2ohm coils. The transistor on res is .0014ohm. Doesnt get beyond just warm without a heat sink. But i really like the low ohm characteristics.

A lot of vape devices use a control board with color display and dc-dc boost with power control levels.  The guy om building them for got into the biz of renting them at night clubs and was doing good till the hukah were failing and the company went under. So im bulding new ones and im just paralleling  18650 cells and running low ohm coils, but on the handles I put 2 push buttons one for full power and one for a lower setting. All the circuits Ive seen either want to use pwm to lower the power or dc-dc boost for more.  I just use a 15k to hold the gate at 0v and the high button puts direct source + and the low button I use a 6.8k res to cause a V division between it and the 15k and it works.  So now the cust dont complain that the thing aint working right because they dont know how to adjust it cuz they are drunk, so just a high n low.. Simple.  No power switches just plug a handle in either side or both and that is the on switch for all the lights, etc.

Has a thick beam laser on top. The new one Im finishing has a laser and a wobble mirror on a cd motor to make a laser cone. Looks crazy when the blow the fog on it.

I make it all with hand tools.

Mags

Mags
I'm impressed. Do you sell them online? 



I've switched out the transformer in Nelsons circuit and I have my two ribbon TBP stacked on top of each other in parallel instead. Yellow trace is on one coil & gnd and blue on internal tap point. I only get the ring if I use two coils.


Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 20, 2017, 09:39:44 AM
I'm impressed. Do you sell them online? 



I've switched out the transformer in Nelsons circuit and I have my two ribbon TBP stacked on top of each other in parallel instead. Yellow trace is on one coil & gnd and blue on internal tap point. I only get the ring if I use two coils.

No. Just doing them for the guy that rents them.

Im not sure what you are saying about the coils

Mags

Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 21, 2017, 06:21:26 AM
Sorry Mags, that was a bit vague. 2TBP stacked on top of each other with ferrite through the centre of them.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 21, 2017, 01:30:23 PM
Added a third coil that was wound from a Cat5 cable so a TBF wound in helix form. Wired same a ch2.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 21, 2017, 11:39:39 PM
One word sums it up......damn.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV7n0EY2h0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV7n0EY2h0)




He hits you with a wet phone book....in the face.....with the mother of all nuggets.....find it!


Sweet video TK from the guy who dislikes scopes and proper measurement.....

Connect that to the nano pulser? To the neon terminals? Test that for output?

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Dog-One on May 22, 2017, 04:20:35 AM
The toroid transformer that is in Nelson's circuit...

I found something interesting one might want to consider about it.

Connected as Nelson shows in bucking style configuration, if pulsed with DC,
there's an interesting back swing not obvious just looking at a voltage or current
signal, but when you turn on the math trace and calculate watts, you can clearly
see the reverse power spike.


Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 22, 2017, 04:51:43 AM
The toroid transformer that is in Nelson's circuit...

I found something interesting one might want to consider about it.

Connected as Nelson shows in bucking style configuration, if pulsed with DC,
there's an interesting back swing not obvious just looking at a voltage or current
signal, but when you turn on the math trace and calculate watts, you can clearly
see the reverse power spike.


Is that just the toroid your pulsing?

Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Dog-One on May 22, 2017, 05:27:20 AM
Is that just the toroid your pulsing?

Yeap.  When it's wired as bucking you can see the current and voltage doesn't respond
exactly the same, hence there is a power spike created opposite to the direction of the
input flow.  Back EMF?   Seems more than that.  It's actual energy per time, power.

Doing some fiddling with the turns ratio you can change the characteristics of the spike.

I couldn't for the life of me figure out how Nelson's training circuit could generate spikes,
but I see it now.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 22, 2017, 05:36:05 AM
Yeap.  When it's wired as bucking you can see the current and voltage doesn't respond
exactly the same, hence there is a power spike created opposite to the direction of the
input flow.  Back EMF?   Seems more than that.  It's actual energy per time, power.

Doing some fiddling with the turns ratio you can change the characteristics of the spike.

I couldn't for the life of me figure out how Nelson's training circuit could generate spikes,
but I see it now.


sok more winding to do. :)
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: MasterPlaster on May 24, 2017, 11:00:21 AM
Some research on bucking coils

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/408/1/012056
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: TinselKoala on May 24, 2017, 04:16:40 PM
Connect that to the nano pulser? To the neon terminals? Test that for output?

Mags

Didn't I try that already? Maybe I forgot to post the picture.

Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 28, 2017, 10:46:42 PM
SO I've been playing with Nelson's pulser and I hooked up a TBP transformer of one pulsing coil a pick up either side and a ferrite through the middle. The neon glows incredibly brightly and flickers purple like plasma. Anyone else seen that? What is it? Mags I tried hooking up to the output of transformer but get better results hooking it up directly. :)
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Magluvin on May 29, 2017, 08:14:18 AM
SO I've been playing with Nelson's pulser and I hooked up a TBP transformer of one pulsing coil a pick up either side and a ferrite through the middle. The neon glows incredibly brightly and flickers purple like plasma. Anyone else seen that? What is it? Mags I tried hooking up to the output of transformer but get better results hooking it up directly. :)

Hey Jim.
Would be easier to see what you are telling.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 29, 2017, 11:57:28 AM
Hey Jim.
Would be easier to see what you are telling.  ;)

Mags
Yeah I know but I'd have to clean up my bench :)  ok uploading now.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: maxc on May 29, 2017, 12:49:59 PM
https://youtu.be/RnzWBCQDUXQ
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: Jimboot on May 30, 2017, 06:15:44 AM
I've since added a 3rd TBP coil to this transformer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erReC82Y308

Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: evostars on May 30, 2017, 10:33:43 PM
intersting effect in that neonbulb.
I have been womdering about the colors of a spark. blue green purple.
it seems frequency dependent.

a collapsing magnetic field creates a dielectric pressure,  that exites the gas to a maximum leve(spin speed)l and then it starts emitting the excess energy as light.
Title: Re: Pulsing A Bifilar Coil And Collecting From It And Various Ways Of Going About It
Post by: evostars on December 06, 2018, 06:19:14 PM
I found out, the best way to impulse a bifilar coil, is to impulse it from both ends, one side positive impulse other side negative impulse, but simultaneously.
Nelson rocha's latest shared circuit does this.

It not only does that, but in the same coil that is impulsed, is also series resonance creating high currents.

the impulsed series resonant coil, is a primary.
The secondary, is inductive coupled, so sees the high currents. But is also in the radiant field induced by the impulses.

Without the current, resonance can easily be tuned into the secondary, as you will be able to see what you are doing on s scope. But the high current, prevents this... It seems to be tuned differently...

So with the current in the secondary, your tuning blind... adding capacitance until it resonates with the impulses of the primary.

When tuned, this could deliver voltage in a high current coil. in phase.
So far only theory...
only need to tune...