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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: antimony on April 25, 2017, 03:09:27 PM

Title: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on April 25, 2017, 03:09:27 PM
Hi, i wasn´t sure where to put this post or thread in the Tesla threads, Solid state, or here but i decided to put it here.

I am just getting started to check out Dr Stifflers SEC technology, and i have watched some of Stifflers videos, along with Jonny Davro and Lidmotors, and from that it seems very promising.
I am reading the pdf from Panacea BOCAF also, and that also seems very promising.

But when i am checking out the posts on the forums, it seems like people doesn´t have very much success, and there are some kind of pessimistic outlook on it, it seems, at least to me.

I have played with a Slayer exciter, and all that, but i haven´t gotten to put a working SEC together yet.
I am going to try to breadboard a basic SEC soon.

Ok, anyway, i wanted to ask if there are members here that have tried the SEC and that are willing to share their experience and thoughts on it.

From what i can take from it all is that it is a "high powered", or some kind of high tech Joule Thief, but if Stifflers claims are true, it should be a very useful technology that i find interesting.

Thanks in advance. /F.   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: pomodoro on April 26, 2017, 02:47:49 PM
I'm sure a few people here must have built his stuff but can't be bothered answering. I built one or two of his circuits, but lost interest. Just like the current gizmo being investigated at the moment, there is a lot of investigation and then there will be total disinterest. While stiffler was providing some hints every now and then the thread kept going strong and then died real quick with no apparent reason. It just ran out of steam. I recommend you try the circuits out only if you have a good 100Mhz scope and actually know RF electronics, otherwise you will be amazed , but only by normal, well understood phenomena, that is not OU but none the less interesting.Stiffler is a very smart guy,but got agro real fast when challenged.


He's got a lot of interesting vids but good luck replicating his OU ones,.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on April 26, 2017, 05:16:23 PM
I'm sure a few people here must have built his stuff but can't be bothered answering. I built one or two of his circuits, but lost interest. Just like the current gizmo being investigated at the moment, there is a lot of investigation and then there will be total disinterest. While stiffler was providing some hints every now and then the thread kept going strong and then died real quick with no apparent reason. It just ran out of steam. I recommend you try the circuits out only if you have a good 100Mhz scope and actually know RF electronics, otherwise you will be amazed , but only by normal, well understood phenomena, that is not OU but none the less interesting.Stiffler is a very smart guy,but got agro real fast when challenged.


He's got a lot of interesting vids but good luck replicating his OU ones,.

I am not very firmilar with RF electronics and I am just getiting starten with electronics, but I am not super serious with it Anyway.

As most of us have realized by now o/u is very rare it seems but that not what i am interested in right now.

I really appreciqte you responding to my post, but I really have to keep this short.  :)

/F
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on April 26, 2017, 06:14:45 PM
recently we had an attack on members here so I have been apprehensive about sharing results from Builders here.
it seems the problem is being addressed .

yes there are many who built Dr.Stiffler's circuits and I myself purchased some

one member in particular did amazing work,I have not spoken with him in Months ,I will see if he wants to contribute  here.
I was going to reach out for him On JackNoskills work[ambient harvesting thread here

and I will mention your thread

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: pomodoro on April 27, 2017, 01:33:19 PM

Stifflers YouTube channel is still there with all the cool yet simple electronic circuits. Check out the first of the Specials, where bursts of undamped RF seemingly come out of a coil only grounded at one end, and couple to the other coil to power a bank of LEDs through an AV plug. No need for the SCE driver just a 2Hz SIG gen.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: anomdeguerre on August 12, 2017, 10:59:17 AM
Breadboarding a SEC might prove problematic. Inductances are critical. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying be aware. Don't know if stifflers thread is still here but I'm guessing it is. Read it all. Ignore the trolls like mile high, tinsel koala, etc.
Have fun.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on August 14, 2017, 08:06:26 PM
Hi I use to follow Dr Stifflers thread, some years ago he also had a web page where he showed a SEC exciter using a CPU mains filter I posted it on the Dally thread but no comments from it another guy a Canadian Kid Kleen (some name like that} had 30 odd Leds running on free energy using a pile of rewound ferrite rod Aerials, i'm prety sure he had an earth. probably tuned to the resonance of the coils.

Chet i don't see any derogatory comments here, but I dare say that's nothing to go by.

Allen

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: anomdeguerre on August 15, 2017, 08:48:28 AM
recently we had an attack on members here so I have been apprehensive about sharing results from Builders here.
it seems the problem is being addressed .

yes there are many who built Dr.Stiffler's circuits and I myself purchased some

one member in particular did amazing work,I have not spoken with him in Months ,I will see if he wants to contribute  here.
I was going to reach out for him On JackNoskills work[ambient harvesting thread here

and I will mention your thread

respectfully
Chet K
I remember you getting one Chetty, you never did anything with it if I recall. Instead of letting it collect dust why don't you sell it to Antimony?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 16, 2017, 03:49:02 PM
I am sorry to bump this thread, but i didnt know that i had so many responses in it.
I have been busy studying Stifflers work, what pdfs i can find with a simple google search, YT and the forum threads, but I feel that there are much information/papers that he put out that I cant seem to find.
Are there anyone that has collected his papers and are willing to Share them with me? :)

I know that his SEC may not be OU but I dont really care about that as it is fascinating stuff. :)

Thanks guys, and sorry that i havent responded, if I have offended someone. Just kidding. :)

Also, were there someone that had a board and that are willing to maybe sell it to me?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 16, 2017, 04:13:10 PM
If I can find mine your welcome to it ...[since your sharing your experiments here.
 Been quite a few years , will scrounge/look around a bit more

I have been told it runs on similar principle as this,

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/avramenkos-plug.113938/

We do have an associate whom I have not spoken to for many months [still have not due to eye surgeries and an inability to read ], 
and he is an amazing  experimenter and open source builder.

I am feeling better and will try to find his contact and give him a ring in the next few days.

respectfully
Chet
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 17, 2017, 01:15:42 AM
Have not called our friend yet, but another reader shared these PDF's for you today.

Chet
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 17, 2017, 05:20:32 PM
If I can find mine your welcome to it ...[since your sharing your experiments here.
 Been quite a few years , will scrounge/look around a bit more

I have been told it runs on similar principle as this,

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/avramenkos-plug.113938/

We do have an associate whom I have not spoken to for many months [still have not due to eye surgeries and an inability to read ], 
and he is an amazing  experimenter and open source builder.

I am feeling better and will try to find his contact and give him a ring in the next few days.

respectfully
Chet

That would be 😎.  From what I have gathered the board is also play a pretty vital part in the whole packade,  so it would be interesting to test it out for myself.

If someone would be willing to talk to me and answer som basic questions, i would be happy with that.

Also, thanks for the pdfs, one of them was new to me. :)
And also thanks for taking your time to help me out. :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 17, 2017, 06:30:32 PM
antimony
there is no doubt that I still have the original Stiffler SEC
I just need My crystal ball to find where I hid it...[from the misses cleaning hands]  :'(

However My Crystal ball is in the shop undergoing a much needed calibration /tune up .
In the mean time I'll keep looking in all the old hiding places...

however we may have others who know where they can get their hands on one ,I'll ask around.

Chet
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on October 18, 2017, 02:13:43 PM
It sounds like you have been watching the re runs of Patricia Arquette's, 'Medium' but isn't the east coast of DC state one of the most reported haunted places on the planet ??
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 18, 2017, 03:04:08 PM
AG
Not sure about That claim to fame ,I personally don't touch anything "Para" even with the ten foot pole.. :o

One thing I must say...I can't believe all the hidden treasures I'm finding in the Quest for the missing SEC...

Yeesh

still hunting albeit slowly.

Chet
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on October 18, 2017, 05:15:06 PM
AG
Not sure about That claim to fame ,I personally don't touch anything "Para" even with the ten foot pole.. :o

One thing I must say...I can't believe all the hidden treasures I'm finding in the Quest for the missing SEC...

Yeesh

still hunting albeit slowly.

Chet
Re Dr Stiffler  some time ago published a circuit 1 transistor a biffilar mains filter out of an pld PC power unit, some r's and 'c and a tank coil he got it to light a what looked like a 20 or 40 W candle candescent light bulb, never did get a reply from an e-mail on the component values or it's center frequency. Don't know if i have the data or not now but it was on the Daily thread some where.

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 18, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
would seem ambient harvesting or even simple methods to create a "potential " need a fresh look.
especially very simple and basic circuits like this one ,would also be good to have methods to establish a Benchmark
for Gain claims.

I suppose we could get some values [answers] to your Email query ,we certainly had enuff fellows who investigated this.
and there is no doubt the quality of experiments and experimenters  has grown tremendously in recent years ...at this forum and elsewhere.

Chet




Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 18, 2017, 06:14:06 PM
would seem ambient harvesting or even simple methods to create a "potential " need a fresh look.
especially very simple and basic circuits like this one ,would also be good to have methods to establish a Benchmark
for Gain claims.

I suppose we could get some values [answers] to your Email query ,we certainly had enuff fellows who investigated this.
and there is no doubt the quality of experiments and experimenters  has grown tremendously in recent years ...at this forum and elsewhere.

Chet

Yeah, i myself are just starting out with this stuff. I have an oscilloscope that i really haven´t learned to use correctly yet, and a $50 signal generator, so i am not the right man for the job, but i will do what i can.

I have had some contact with Dr through email, but i feel that i don´t want to bother him with stuff that i probably can find out through the documentation.
Also he wrote that he have had some health problems this year, so he are probably not up for guiding a noob like me, at least not right now. :)

Re Dr Stiffler  some time ago published a circuit 1 transistor a biffilar mains filter out of an pld PC power unit, some r's and 'c and a tank coil he got it to light a what looked like a 20 or 40 W candle candescent light bulb, never did get a reply from an e-mail on the component values or it's center frequency. Don't know if i have the data or not now but it was on the Daily thread some where.

AG

That would be interesting to hear some more about.

antimony
there is no doubt that I still have the original Stiffler SEC
I just need My crystal ball to find where I hid it...[from the misses cleaning hands]  :'(

However My Crystal ball is in the shop undergoing a much needed calibration /tune up .
In the mean time I'll keep looking in all the old hiding places...

however we may have others who know where they can get their hands on one ,I'll ask around.

Chet

I would be very gratful if you would. :) Thanks mate.

AG
Not sure about That claim to fame ,I personally don't touch anything "Para" even with the ten foot pole.. :o

One thing I must say...I can't believe all the hidden treasures I'm finding in the Quest for the missing SEC...

Yeesh

still hunting albeit slowly.

Chet

Yeah, i can understand what you mean. I am also in the process of cleaning the attic, and i have also found so much stuff that i have totally forgot about. :)
It always fun. :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on October 18, 2017, 11:29:07 PM
Chet I'm trying to find it, any way have a look at this PDF

http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/2012News/imagesnews12/PanaceaSECDr.Stiffler.pdf
also thisd might be of interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JDBYKX5CcU
ag
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 19, 2017, 02:38:24 PM
ag
thanks
I'm trying to get caught up on 8 months of things I could not do...
just ripped the entire roof off the side porch yesterday and gotta get it closed up before the rain comes
hard to do things without the other eye ,a bit scary climbing around without depth perception.

I see Panacea in one of your Links
I wonder what ever happened to Ash ?
been many years since I last spoke with him?

thanks for your contributions

Note to antimony
I did not know that Dr. Stiffler was not feeling well ?
hope he is on the mend...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 20, 2017, 01:35:54 PM
Chet I'm trying to find it, any way have a look at this PDF

http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/2012News/imagesnews12/PanaceaSECDr.Stiffler.pdf
also thisd might be of interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JDBYKX5CcU
ag

I am reading, and re-reading that pdf for the 100th time now. It has been a really helpful document for me at least.

I will check out the yt-link right away.

ag
thanks
I'm trying to get caught up on 8 months of things I could not do...
just ripped the entire roof off the side porch yesterday and gotta get it closed up before the rain comes
hard to do things without the other eye ,a bit scary climbing around without depth perception.

I see Panacea in one of your Links
I wonder what ever happened to Ash ?
been many years since I last spoke with him?

thanks for your contributions

Note to antimony
I did not know that Dr. Stiffler was not feeling well ?
hope he is on the mend...

I know what you mean. Not about the depth perception, but having things to do that have been put off. But some day you have to take care of them, before it all collapses. :)

I have tried to contact Panacea, but i haven´t gotten a response, so maybe they are inactive as for now. That would be a real shame, becouse i have learned so much from their information that they have put out, like the Stiffler pdf that AG posted, for example.

I found a video posted by Ash on YT, about the tuning of the PSEC, and that video is really heavy, but really helpful. Much much information that are really valueble. I have learned more these last couple of weeks then in the last couple of years. It is a wonderful feeling when that coil drops, right? :)

Yeah, i don´t know the Dr or anything, but i have had some correspondance, and he wrote that he have had some rough times this spring, but he is recovering from what i can gather.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 23, 2017, 03:24:03 PM
What is that? Am i missing something?  :P
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on October 23, 2017, 03:33:37 PM
no
Kampen made a slip of the keyboard [things happen??]

here is the thread he started

http://overunity.com/17476/magnet-motor-solved-see-the-video-clip-on-ou/msg512022/#new

Chet
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: kampen on October 23, 2017, 08:00:07 PM
@ All,

Sorry, for the message above: posted in a wrong topic and I do not know how to delete it!
Was working on a laptop..... :(   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 24, 2017, 01:02:10 PM
@ All,

Sorry, for the message above: posted in a wrong topic and I do not know how to delete it!
Was working on a laptop..... :(

It´s ok ofcourse. I just thought that i had missed something important. The video seem very interesting. I am always interested in carbon, graphite/graphene so i will check it out. :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 28, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Hi, I would just like to ask if someone please could take a look at this link that is a mirror of Dr Stifflers old website (i think), and say if there is complete, or if it is information missing?

http://www.tuks.nl/mirror/drstiffler/

I understand if this is a dumb question, and i dont demand that you should memorize this site that havent been up for 5 + years.
But if there are something that sticks out to you, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 30, 2017, 11:35:55 AM
Hi again. Sorry to bump this thread again, but I would like to ask if someone has any experience with how to find the spatial resonant frequency with the FFT function and a signal generator.

I have tried to tackle this problem yesterday, but it may be that my signal generator is not good enough, or that i am doing it all wrong.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on October 30, 2017, 04:51:58 PM

Dr Stiffler has obviously:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOq7-WsL5c

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on October 31, 2017, 01:31:43 PM
Dr Stiffler has obviously:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOq7-WsL5c

Itsu

I am just getting started learning to use my oscilloscope, and i am having trouble with the FFT function.
But you are right. I just got so frustrated with it, but I will figure it out. :)


Thanks.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on October 31, 2017, 03:36:01 PM

Quote
I am just getting started learning to use my oscilloscope, and i am having trouble with the FFT function.
But you are right. I just got so frustrated with it, but I will figure it out. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)


Thanks.


antimony,

no problem, i think the best way to measure is to use the scope in normal (not FFT) mode and tune for max. signal.
I used a kacher/tesla secondary coil for the measurments in the below video.
I know it resonates around 1Mhz when in a kacher / tesla coil like setup.

In the video i use severall methods to measure the spatial or self resonance of this coil, the normal scope way, the FFT way and the spectrum analyzer way.

Hope it makes some sense now.

video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1H0XktYNjQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1H0XktYNjQ)

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: profitis on October 31, 2017, 04:44:46 PM
" I just got so frustrated with it, but I
will figure it out."

Try to focus on more detour andc less detail silly
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on November 02, 2017, 01:21:12 PM

antimony,

no problem, i think the best way to measure is to use the scope in normal (not FFT) mode and tune for max. signal.
I used a kacher/tesla secondary coil for the measurments in the below video.
I know it resonates around 1Mhz when in a kacher / tesla coil like setup.

In the video i use severall methods to measure the spatial or self resonance of this coil, the normal scope way, the FFT way and the spectrum analyzer way.

Hope it makes some sense now.

video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1H0XktYNjQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1H0XktYNjQ)

Regards Itsu

I think i have seen it, and it was very informative, but as i am a slow learner i haven´t got it 100% yet. :)

Thanks for taking your time Itsu.

Edit. Cool, i havent seen this one yet, so thanks mate. :) I am going to take a peek at it right away.

I didn´t get that it was for me until you said it in the beginning, so thank you very much for taking you time to do the video.

I am going to try the same thing as you did, with the information that you provided in the video.

But i think that it may be my cheap signal generator that keeps me from achieving success, but i will keep trying.
As you may already know, i am new to this, but this signal gen is the one i got if you want to take a look at it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o5MzTOzZo4
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on November 02, 2017, 02:26:50 PM

Looks like a fairly decent function generator to me and i am sure you can do the same test as i did using your coil assumming the spatial or self resonance of your coil is not higher
then the 24Mhz your FG can supply.

I do advice to use an isolation transformer as suggested in the Test Video of that device as it seems poorly isolated from mains (50 or 60Hz), see 12min. into the video.
Not for this test, but when using it on more delicate circuits it could possible damage something.


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on November 09, 2017, 11:55:00 AM
Looks like a fairly decent function generator to me and i am sure you can do the same test as i did using your coil assumming the spatial or self resonance of your coil is not higher
then the 24Mhz your FG can supply.

I do advice to use an isolation transformer as suggested in the Test Video of that device as it seems poorly isolated from mains (50 or 60Hz), see 12min. into the video.
Not for this test, but when using it on more delicate circuits it could possible damage something.


Itsu

Oh, that´s good to hear about the signal generator. I am going to look at your videos again, and study them as i haven´t had that much free time these last 5 days or so, but you should know that i really appreciate your help.

I am going to have some time from tomorrow morning, and this weekend, so i am going to start up again with the project.
Mine are not 24 Mhz (just 2 Mhz), and dont have all those waveforms though. Other then that they are the same, i think.
Here is the one i have. That i am sure of 100% :)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2MHz-Dual-Channel-DDS-Function-Signal-Generator-Sine-Square-Wave-Sweep-Counter-/281466585560

Sorry to "trick" you, but this is the one i really have. I was in a bit of a rush when i posted the link to the first one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ-i6lOTT9k

I am going to watch the video, to see what you are referring to. :)

Thanks again Itsu.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on November 13, 2017, 06:22:11 PM
I connected an earth ground to the negative of a SEC and it lit up 9 white LEDs dimly, and i just had to ask you guys if this is something unusual, or whatever?

Maybe this is totally normal, but I was just blown away as this is totally new to me.

Here is a link to a short video.

https://youtu.be/48iKKC3AOZQ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on November 14, 2017, 04:51:27 PM
I connected an earth ground to the negative of a SEC and it lit up 9 white LEDs dimly, and i just had to ask you guys if this is something unusual, or whatever?

Maybe this is totally normal, but I was just blown away as this is totally new to me.

Here is a link to a short video.

https://youtu.be/48iKKC3AOZQ

Could this be the same as in one of Stifflers own videos where he was exciting one of his antenna coils from ground, in a Aluminium pan?

If so, did the Al-pan aCT as an antenna of sorts in that case?

I am going to see if I can find a link to that video.
It is on his youtube channel.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on December 04, 2017, 03:16:38 PM
Do anybody have any information on the parasitic plate that Stiffler is using ?

I have tried to make my own with Al-tape on each side of the PCB that i am using as a insulator.

Stiffler is using Tin (Sb) and Copper with his plate, but I didnt have any Tin sheet or Cu so i went with Aluminium.

I notice that there is an increase in both brightness in the Leds and the mA draw, but i want to explore it futher, becouse Stiffler seemed to put emphasis on its importance for some applications, like heat for example.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on April 30, 2018, 11:32:36 PM
 Dr.Stiffler shared a new Vid and Schematic
 thx to user Microvolt at Aaron's forum and to Dr.Stiffler for having the schematic posted there.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9717-dr-stiffler-sec-replications-11.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9717-dr-stiffler-sec-replications-11.html)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIcaDtSUT3I&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIcaDtSUT3I&feature=youtu.be)

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 01, 2018, 01:04:11 AM
That's so good to see him posting vids again.
I knew he'd not been well, but nothing about what the problems were...am certainly wishing him many good years ahead.

Will drag out my old SEC copies, built 4 or 5 back in the day.
Yes, Panacea were quite wonderful at the time, with lots of useful knowledge and experiments.
It's doubtful that an SEC 18 can be built on a breadboard, but can be made to work using the right components and soldered up on veroboard with care and in similar placements.
Pigtail length of the L3 is important and all sorts of other elements are true that Doc Stiffler always said about. Best success of an easy to make L3 was ~20AWG wound on top of an empty solder tube. L1 and L2 can be made from 1000uH axial inductors, but that will impact output, rather than a wound form. 2N2222A's seem to be best suited as the transistor, but others will work. Lots of experimentation room left in the circuit. 
 
Edit: found a few and wound an L3 with 26/28AWG, 90 turns:

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 01, 2018, 07:20:42 AM
Here we go, one of them is running now, with that L3 made earlier.
It's sat on a ceramic bathroom tile, that has 4 felt feet under it...Doctor Stiffler always used to raise the circuits out of the way of any metal or other grounding.
This one was made about, hmm 6 years ago or somewhere and is now running on a 5V USB wall adapter.
It needs a ground plane to run, in this case some transformer laminations (to the left of the circuit), connected to the variable capacitor.
A click with a BBQ lighter fires it up, then the small variable capacitor tunes it.
It's pretty poor for output, but at least runs.

The blue LED's are on AV plugs to one of the ends of ferrite chokes, salvaged from old PC monitors. They're just sat near the L3 and are running wirelessly.


Update: a new L3 has been wound. 80 turns of ~20AWG.
The output is much better, an LED on an AV plug is connected to the old L3 in the pic.
Am using a whittled matchstick to tune and even that's not the best...get anything metal or the human body near these circuits and the tuning shifts.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 02, 2018, 06:23:52 PM
OK, so now to Dr. Stiffler's latest vid and schematic, as best I can.
Without having a similar Cree board or a settable power supply, input voltage is still the 5V USB wall adapter.

A 1W LED is on quite a thick stock heatsink, that many will be familiar with.
Pigtail cut off on the L3.
The reverse AV plug is made of 2x 1N4148's, connected to the input supply negative. 
Input is 50mA, as measured with an Innova 3300 DMM and output seems to be in the ball park of 1/4W from the LED.
So in other words, it's lighting the 1W LED at approx 1/4 full rated output for 1/4 the rated input...very little in the way of losses if any.
There's also no faux ground now on the homemade SEC 18, which is an improvement.

:)

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 03, 2018, 02:20:37 AM
    Hello Slider:
   Although I forget his name now, there was a guy that showed lighting 100 leds, with the previous Stiffler PSEC Exciter circuit. Using no input source, just connected to a ground line.
And that was a few years ago. Has there been any advances since then?
  The Doc gave up on his own self running circuits, a while back, and went to other projects instead.
I guess that he's been sick, all this time?

   Remember that there is always stray AC running through your floors, tables, metal surfaces, etz, and also on any electronics connected to the grid. Which can also light leds on an AV plug.
You need to turn off your house breakers, to be sure that the stray AC is not the cause of the "effect", on that type of low voltage device.
   The stubborn Doc would never show his device working outside and away from man made sources. His ground line was always connected to the AC grid ground rail, instead of to an outside Earth ground.

   Isn't the idea, that the PSEC is supposed to self run? Not lighting the bulbs at 1/4 the normal input, and only getting 1/4 the normal  output... That doesn't sound like any gain, to me, as I understand it.
"Very little in the way of losses"  sounds more like, very little in the way of gains. 
Perhaps I missed something...
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 03, 2018, 04:40:31 AM
Hey Nick, long time no chat !
My homemade version will be only a slice compared to a real SEC 18, but seems to work ok and I was pleased with this test. There's not a lot to jump and down about, sure, but it also looks like Dr. Stiffler has only posted that first video to get back into things again.
As it stands, the experiment worked like an re-introduction (to me anyway) of this different form of wireless energy circuit.
Using a ground line to an outdoors stake should help the system out quite a ways...will be testing such things myself.

And yes, very valid point, there are all sorts of things going on with mains, capacitances, perhaps even wifi, phone and radio signals in some cases.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 03, 2018, 06:19:15 AM
  Slider:
  Good to hear from you too.
   Don't forget about Stiffler's "spacial resonance" factor, possibly his unique key to self running.
Bigger coils might yield higher outputs,  along with a tuned earthground   
   I do miss the old fart. Good to see him doing his thing,  again.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on May 05, 2018, 04:49:59 PM
Oh Nice to see people are active here in this thread.
I was just going to post that Dr Stiffler has recently posted a new video on his channel called, and i was pleasantly surprised that there were people posting here. :)

I have also missed him, although i wasnt rhere at the time. But i am glad he is still active.

Ps. Are mikrovolt here on OU too?


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: hartiberlin on May 27, 2018, 08:57:09 PM
In Dr. Stifflers last video: SMF understandig?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFhRx8PgK8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFhRx8PgK8c)
 just see, that the bigger his metal on the backside of the Cree panel is, the better the light output....
that really confirms, that it is the bigger capacitance letting more RF curent flow going back via the air to his function generator...more picofarads lets more RF current flow...
now the question still is, how high the voltage output of the RF generator really is and how high the voltage is after the L3 going into the magnet...

As he has lots of good measurement equipment he really should do these measurements to see,
what is really going on or use a battery powered RF oscillator to feed the circuit and then compare
the input power from the battery with the light output at the Cree...

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: hartiberlin on May 28, 2018, 01:09:51 AM
Dr. Stiffler should put his HP Signal generator onto a watts meter and show the input power into it 2 times,1. when he has the signal generator running at the same frequency without connecting his SFM circuit ( LEDs not lighting)2. Connected to his SFM circuit and the LED shinning brightly...
Now in the second case is the input power into his signal generator about 1 to 2 Watts higher ?
If yes, we know, that the power just comes from the grid...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on May 29, 2018, 04:21:05 AM
Dr.Stiffler says he carried the secret long enuff??
He calls it
"The Diode Loop"
or Stiffler Loop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhdfwmeWevs&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhdfwmeWevs&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 29, 2018, 05:43:02 AM
  Before Doc needed to use a ground line to connect his psec circuit to the house AC ground. Which we know to have an influence from stray capacitance from the AC grid source. He would not take his circuit and test it outside, just using an earth ground connection. He was very stubborn about this.
  And now after all these years he still needs to connect his circuit to something, for it to dimly and partially light the cree board. Not very impressive, nor useful, that I can see.
   I was hoping to see better results, by now. Sorry, but it's not very convincing the way he's showing it.And I really doubt that will he take any advice or suggestions from Stefan.
  In any case, it's good to see him at it still.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Belfior on May 29, 2018, 10:55:29 AM
  Before Doc needed to use a ground line to connect his psec circuit to the house AC ground. Which we know to have an influence from stray capacitance from the AC grid source. He would not take his circuit and test it outside, just using an earth ground connection. He was very stubborn about this.
  And now after all these years he still needs to connect his circuit to something, for it to dimly and partially light the cree board. Not very impressive, nor useful, that I can see.
   I was hoping to see better results, by now. Sorry, but it's not very convincing the way he's showing it.And I really doubt that will he take any advice or suggestions from Stefan.
  In any case, it's good to see him at it still.

Yes I can understand that people want evidence that supports their own theory, but refusing any critisism and not taking the device outside to earth ground means that he is using his grid in some way. I mean is your goal to cheat yourself, the electric company or to find OU?

Light up a bulb and self-loop it. That is my answer to myself. I don't even like using batteries, since that always brings in more questions like "this seems OU, but is it because you are destroying the battery?"
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on May 29, 2018, 12:10:36 PM
Ramset please explain why you believe the energy is coming from the grid, do you mean his hearth loop and SG power transfer ?

Sujeset you talk to Dr Stiffler and ask him to explaine

How to wind L3  (file:///C:/Users/Tarotbug/Downloads/17695261-Wireless-or-OneWire-Energy-Transmission-Construction-Guide%20(1).pdf)

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: DrJones on May 29, 2018, 01:45:25 PM
   Slider (Mark) is doing some very intriguing replication work, using a small signal generator NOT tied to the grid... 



SFM slider may 27 part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYk1mAAzGb8  up to 9Mhz sig gen
SFM part 2 may 27: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3zQCg16r7A&t=5s


Keep up the good work, Mark!
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on May 29, 2018, 02:49:50 PM
AG
I think you confused my "no comment" response [just Stiffler quotes from the video] with Stefan's questions above ??

Ramset quote
Dr.Stiffler says he carried the secret long enuff??He calls it
"The Diode Loop"
or Stiffler Loop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhdfwmeWevs&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhdfwmeWevs&feature=youtu.be)

end quote

Slyders  replication again
SFM slider may 27 part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYk1mAAzGb8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYk1mAAzGb8)  up to 9Mhz sig gen
SFM part 2 may 27: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3zQCg16r7A&t=5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3zQCg16r7A&t=5s)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: DrJones on May 29, 2018, 04:11:37 PM
  Here is lidmotor's replication-simulation of the SFM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNMsynVKngo


  Below is his schema of the SFM.  What I don't understand is - how is the signal generator (one wire only) "hooked up" to the toroidal coil?  can anyone explain that?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 29, 2018, 07:10:15 PM
Well some great news from here - i've got it running !

Set out yesterday to have the connections as per the SFM original, no direct electrical connections to anything.
Battery operated signal generator, with signal wire to the magnets on the right side, piece of plastic, the magnets are stuck to the coil.
There is no direct connection electrically anywhere.
The thing is though that the signal generator isn't putting out 20V+ and there is a lot of room to improve the L3. The 1W LED is dim and my magnets are of tiny force compared to Dr. Stiffler's.
The big 'trick' is the use of a ferrite rod in the L3, for my replication at least.

Am editing the video bits together and then will post the vid  ;D
It's a step by step in a way, of looking to get it running by the video end.

Will also do a vid of it running outside if there is need to do so.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: DrJones on May 29, 2018, 07:32:41 PM
Thank you, Slider!  very exciting - I look forward to your video.


"Well some great news from here - i've got it running ![/size]Set out yesterday to have the connections as per the SFM original, no direct electrical connections to anything.Battery operated signal generator, with signal wire to the magnets on the right side, piece of plastic, the magnets are stuck to the coil.There is no direct connection electrically anywhere. " -- Slider
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 29, 2018, 08:32:20 PM
Video is up  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0GO3SIGDk
(4min 38sec)


Some notes about the need for a ferrite rod, that isn't in Dr. Stiffler's video's:
It's needed, because the tuning frequency increases with the removal position of the rod. 2MHz equates to the rod mostly in, 9MHz relates to the rod mostly out. Complete removal would therefore result in a higher driving frequency being needed - the 18.753MHz of Dr. Stiffler's being in line with that.

The output from the generator is very low, so the output compared to Dr. Stiffler's videos has to have that factored....plus I don't have the years of experience of tunings that he has !
Title: Stiffler Loop
Post by: Lidmotor on May 29, 2018, 08:36:45 PM
Hi.   I have not posted here for a long time.  This Dr. Stiffler project is very interesting and Slider and I are trying our best to understand and replicate what he has done.  It would be great if others here with better equipment would join in.  His 'Stiffler Loop' video is both fascinating and troubling.  It is a 13Mhz sinewave signal sent into the heat sink of an LED board.  There are two slightly mismatched coils and four diodes in the circuit.  That is it --and the LEDs light up.  He explains what is happening but it goes against normal thinking (at least mine).  He states that the current to run the LEDs doesn't come from the signal generator but rather from the loop involving the two coils in resonance.   I'm looking forward to how this project proceeds.  ------Rusty
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: DrJones on May 29, 2018, 08:59:24 PM
  Good to hear from you, Rusty!  Thanks for your work on this.
This has piqued my interest, also. 


Let's note Mark's latest vid on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0GO3SIGDk&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=9jhTb1FA_aJONIDz-6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0GO3SIGDk&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=9jhTb1FA_aJONIDz-6)


NO direct-electrical connections at all, and a battery-powered signal generator...
Well done, Mark!
--Steve



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 29, 2018, 09:54:05 PM
   The way that stray AC can run on the floors, tables,  walls,  etz,  means that the coils and everything else has to be off of any of those surfaces. Like outside, and just using an earth ground. And, also, away from any power lines, cell phone towers, radio stations, etz.  It's also adviceable to turn off the house breakers when conducting these tests, other wise, you may just be fishing for electrosmog.

  Lidmotor, and Slider:  Nice to see you guys posting here.       
   Good luck with your tests.                                                                                       
                                                NickZ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 29, 2018, 10:02:10 PM
Great to see you here Rusty  ;D
One thing you never have been is your forename.
But perhaps one area of research that does get a little jaded and forgotten is that of wireless electricity. We've all been there, done the circuits and a lot have shown the videos...but this 'Stiffler Loop' seems exactly like it should be a pair of AV plugs if it isn't a bridge rectifier.
Maybe it is, but the way his method works could make it all less than simple. Or, indeed this method isn't already fully known and understood. Seems like a slim chance, but who knows, I completely get why there is doubt.
Germanium diodes are different to silicon and mostly used differently, Dr. Stiffler's usage may be different to conventional usage too....I hope he stays in good health for a long time so that we too can further such a thing, if indeed it somehow amplifies current.

Back to driving voltage though for a moment:
Here's a pic of a test setup just performed. A 100uF cap on the output of the DS203.
1.677V is the output.
A 1 Ohm resistor could be used and I=V/R for the current. That might be the best way.
In any case, it's low and has to be, because the unit is battery powered :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler diode loop
Post by: mikrovolt on May 29, 2018, 10:48:58 PM
hello measurement not easy
Title: Stiffler Loop
Post by: Lidmotor on May 30, 2018, 12:51:29 AM
I may have figured out Dr. Stiffler's 'Stiffler Loop' device.  I am driving it with a Slayer Exciter but it might even work off your signal generator Mark if you want to give it a go.  Neat stuff.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7zBvOEJSP4
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 30, 2018, 08:21:22 AM
Wicked video, enjoyed it !
We're motoring here with the new revelation...all really good to get back to and with Ron being very helpful too.


A new vid will be edited together and posted tomorrow morning, i've had a breakthrough that pulls a lot of this together, well hopefully folks see it that way.
Back to the 1.5V AA powered Slayer Exciter, but using the 'Stiffler Loop' as well and the SFM with no signal generator.
The 'range' is simply extraordinary in my opinion.
There is also a very odd trait, in that the 2nd same Slayer Exciter circuit comes into tune better the further the L3 pick up clip lead gets from the source !

Screenshot:
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 30, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
Video is up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2euJ7vGNkjk
 :)

Am now removing the big metal blocks and exploring the odd resonance interactions, where moving things further away can actually tune up a receiving coil better.
Title: New Dr. Stiffler video
Post by: Lidmotor on May 30, 2018, 10:47:59 PM
Well it looks like this project is not attracting as many people as I thought it would.  Slider and I seem to be the only ones building so far.  Anyway here is Doc's latest video that shows an even simpler device lighting up from a signal generator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTSMNB4h9U8&t=0s
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 31, 2018, 02:41:04 AM
   I was hoping to see the Doc showing it self running using just a ground line.  Not needing a any made input source, like the signal generator, or an exciter circuit. No such luck...
  I would gladly build the simple circuit,  and follow along, I may still do so, if I see some practical use for those experiments.
   Would really like to see those tests done outside, and not laying on top of tables,  or with an Exciter circuit connected to the AC outlet, inside the house. To get me excited about those types of tests. And, not to mention some useable output,  therefrom.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on May 31, 2018, 04:27:03 AM
Good news.  Mark made a comment on one my videos that we should be able to use a MHz crystal circuit to produce the signal. A light went on in my head.  I did this back in 2013 using a super simple 1Mhz crystal and a 22if choke circuit.  Check this out-----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4zEpTpiais

Cheers----Rusty
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Belfior on May 31, 2018, 10:20:58 AM
Good news.  Mark made a comment on one my videos that we should be able to use a MHz crystal circuit to produce the signal. A light went on in my head.  I did this back in 2013 using a super simple 1Mhz crystal and a 22if choke circuit.  Check this out-----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4zEpTpiais

Cheers----Rusty

Could you put a scope in the circuit after the crystal oscillator and the choke? It is DC with ripple after the plug, so does not really matter, but would be nice to see the waveform
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: DrJones on May 31, 2018, 01:53:05 PM
Good news.  Mark made a comment on one my videos that we should be able to use a MHz crystal circuit to produce the signal. A light went on in my head.  I did this back in 2013 using a super simple 1Mhz crystal and a 22if choke circuit.  Check this out-----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4zEpTpiais (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4zEpTpiais)

Cheers----Rusty


    Nice! 
  This development makes me think of Dr. Moray's device back in the early years (circa 1930-1955) when he was playing with a crystal he picked up in Europe.  No doubt an oscillator!  at least that's what I think.  He would tune the thing, then could generate ample power (according to the observations of one Dr Harvey Fletcher who examined the operating Moray device at length).


   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRigG687ies
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 31, 2018, 03:27:42 PM
Am glad the idea resparked an interest Rusty, am sure i'm of more community use researching this than flying paper airplanes around. There do need to be more people looking into the effects, else the few of us could get stuck and throw the towel in.
Mnsman1 says he's now interested in building and I respect his work too.

But Nick's position is wholly reasonable and anyone else reading the thread - show a device that does something OU and we'll invest time and likely money at it, that's why everyone is here. 

A 4 pin crystal is an easier circuit than the 2 pin, but I may well try builds of both.
The lack of a signal generator shouldn't get in the way to replicate the Doc's work.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on May 31, 2018, 04:28:31 PM
Am glad the idea resparked an interest Rusty, am sure i'm of more community use researching this than flying paper airplanes around. There do need to be more people looking into the effects, else the few of us could get stuck and throw the towel in.
Mnsman1 says he's now interested in building and I respect his work too.

But Nick's position is wholly reasonable and anyone else reading the thread - show a device that does something OU and we'll invest time and likely money at it, that's why everyone is here. 

A 4 pin crystal is an easier circuit than the 2 pin, but I may well try builds of both.
The lack of a signal generator shouldn't get in the way to replicate the Doc's work.
can you give me and details on how to wind the coil ?

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 31, 2018, 05:44:39 PM
Hi AG,
For Dr. Stiffler's set ups I believe he uses ~80 turns of 26AWG on 1/2" PVC pipe, but it needs clarification.
For my own, they are wound on solder tubes, 90 turns of 28AWG or whatever I have around...in the case of the 2 matched Slayer Exciters, there are 170 turns each from 2 exactly the same mini transformers. The transformers were on one of the 'too many' junk boards around here.
The thing being that any coil with enough inductance can be tuned with a ferrite rod. It may be incorrect to do things that way, but I don't have a working LC meter and so can't build to an exacting inductance.
Such tuning abilities from incorrectly built parts were based on Lidmotor's similar wish to tune up a simple Exciter. I also believe the Doc used to use a ferrite rod in his setups, but dropped it in favour of the small variable capacitors.

A tip for securing the ends of such coils is to drill 2 holes slightly apart in the start end of say a solder tube (the opposite end to the hole). Run the start of the wire through those and it won't pull out. Same thing for the other end after wrapping tightly. Saves on glue or tape that may come away over time.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 31, 2018, 06:45:00 PM
   Slider:   You need to replicate to exact specs, and not guessing at turns or inductance. It took the Doc several months  to be able to obtain the shown results.
   It's best to use new mag wire, not used wire. Are solder tubes what the Doc used? Use the same former, also.Get the same cree bulb, etz.
   No one said this was going to be easy... So, don't throw in the towel,   just yet.

   The circuit using the magnets on the torroid coil looks similar to many new videos out now, showing how they can light some bulbs, with NO additional input source. Just using magnets, on coils, and an led bulb, similar or just like the cree bulb. I think that there may be a relation there, to what the Doc is doing.There must be.  At least to some, of what may not be faked.
  Most are most likely click baits. They get a dollar per 1000 clicks. Whether they work as shown, or not.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on May 31, 2018, 07:05:38 PM
Oh you are quite right...I tend to build with what I have. If it seems to work then things get more exacting, a route for disaster but works sometimes lol
Anything built away from what's shown can only be pseudo and i've hardly ever referred to something as a replication, unless it's open ended as to what can be used.
The method being the important thing.

It does look like that plethora of fakey fakes doesn't it. I'm thinking that something, somewhere did work as was described and the fake vids are merely copying the look of it blindly for Youtube hits and ad revenue.


TinMan just showed a vid where he used 2x axial inductors as an alternative to an AV plug for the SEC type experiments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyX9nRrym3Y
I decided to have a go at that with bits on the bench.
The inductors are regular wound types, 2 different values. It didn't work with the sig gen, but does work with a SWES (Simple Wireless Electricity System).
15 turns bifilar pancake, S9014, diode from battery negative to Emitter, 1.5V AAA
It's kind of neat how no trailing wire or clip lead is needed and it stands up on the coil.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on May 31, 2018, 07:37:18 PM
  TinMan's neon is lit, but it can light with 70v or sometimes even less voltage, and not the 200+ he is stating. As it is just barely lighting the neon...
 You can try a regular voltmeter, to see what it reads, also. Sometimes they can read the correct values, on something like this, but mostly they won't read correctly. Just like the Dr. showed, (incorrect scope values).

   Please place any circuit or coil away from the table, on some styrofoam (or similar), and elevated off of the table by a few inches. Same thing with your SG, and it's wires. Turn off you house breakers. 
   Otherwise you're just fishing for stray AC.  I'm sure you'll find that stray capacitance, all over the house.And you'll be fooled by it, lighting an led bulb.
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on May 31, 2018, 10:53:05 PM
Oh you are quite right...I tend to build with what I have. If it seems to work then things get more exacting, a route for disaster but works sometimes lol
Anything built away from what's shown can only be pseudo and i've hardly ever referred to something as a replication, unless it's open ended as to what can be used.
The method being the important thing.

It does look like that plethora of fakey fakes doesn't it. I'm thinking that something, somewhere did work as was described and the fake vids are merely copying the look of it blindly for Youtube hits and ad revenue.


TinMan just showed a vid where he used 2x axial inductors as an alternative to an AV plug for the SEC type experiments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyX9nRrym3Y
I decided to have a go at that with bits on the bench.
The inductors are regular wound types, 2 different values. It didn't work with the sig gen, but does work with a SWES (Simple Wireless Electricity System).
15 turns bifilar pancake, S9014, diode from battery negative to Emitter, 1.5V AAA
It's kind of neat how no trailing wire or clip lead is needed and it stands up on the coil.
It's difficult for me to understand the American jargon  ;D no offense there.
The photo shows what looks like a ribbon cable ? if so are the layers interconected ?
any chance you can show more detail ? and whats Wireless Electricity System about ?

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 01, 2018, 03:36:31 AM
   Dr. Stiffler just posted another new video. By adding another diode, he was able to obtain a higher output at the cree bulb.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 01, 2018, 04:29:51 PM
   Here's an old video of mine, showing what the stray AC can do to light an led.
   This is why I recommend isolating the device from this type of influence.
Otherwise you will be fooled by thinking that you are havesting Aether, from the ambient, when in fact it's just stray capacitance of the AC from the house wiring.
  https://youtu.be/Xur_VChGdzE (https://youtu.be/Xur_VChGdzE)
  And here is the Doc's latest video:   https://youtu.be/2Z9ae0MkfbQ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 01, 2018, 06:29:15 PM
AG - your comment was pure gold there about the Americanisms. I'm English, but live in the USA  ;D
I do though acknowledge the strange cross-over in language use that has developed.
The coil is a flat single layer pancake, 2 wire core wound around and around on itself 15 times and secured with superglue. 9 turns is about the minimum, extra turns than 15 don't yield extra output. The circuit will saturate above about 3V, so a 1.5V AA or AAA is ideal. Old 56K modem cables are ideal. A diode from either battery connection can reduce current or heat, as can a resistor to the Base of the transistor, but then it starts to step away from being the simplest wireless circuit possible. It was named 'Simple Wireless Electricity System' or SWES.
I know it's not the focus of these experiments and I don't sell them or anything, it's always been Open Source since 2012 and replicated without acknowledgement ever since (not that it's needed).
Vid link to explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSUGXCWIVoI
An even easier and simpler version is SWES 2, 2 coils of wire wound around a medicine bottle as a former.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpGRghguv2g

There is a point to trying the Dr. Stiffler experiments with other forms of input, especially Exciters, because folks are having troubles building or acquiring 20MHz signal generators !
These simple things of mine are an extra route of doing so.


Yes indeed Nick, outdoors demo's are becoming ever more needed. Also, motors and filament bulbs for better power showing than LED's. A gent on Youtube suggested that and I quite agree, mains being a heck of a deceiver to the results of experiments.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 01, 2018, 06:44:19 PM
In fact, here we go Nick, this is my 2 diode/3 diode experiment just uploaded....where you can see how the body capacitance partially fires up the SFM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYn82ZG2IuQ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 02, 2018, 04:41:50 AM
   And yet another video just posted today by Dr. Stiffler.  This time with no third diode.  Look for it yourself, if interested. I can't post a link from this tablet.   There must be a point to all his musing, but I don't know where it's leading to.
   The problem with using an Exciter is that you can't control the frequency, without adding or removing wire turns on the secondary coil. Ferrite inside the core will only control the frequency to a point.
   Looks to me like the Doc is using a 3 inch piece of 1/2 inch hot water pipe as his coil former tube.
So what gauge mag wire and turn count is he using, now?   I have a signal generator, but only goes to 2MHz. So I would need to find a lower harmonic, within my range.

  I thought the Doc's psec was a more interesting circuit, as it did not need a high end SG signal, to light some LEDs. Kind of ironic, isn't it? What happened to tapping the Aether, ambient, "or whatever you want to call it"...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 02, 2018, 05:42:01 AM
If you want to replicate the Stiffler circuit showing that it works correctly with same drive level. Previous the projects required
equivalent equipment. The project shows diode loop, 13 W led array and a signal generator.

In DC that is 12V * 930mA = 13W  ( I don't think Dr. Stiffler is using 13 Watts )
Using RF we can use a 2N5109 general purpose HF range transistor. It should
work nicely with the lower output signal generators or crystal to increase the drive level.

Title: Stiffler Loop Stubby
Post by: Lidmotor on June 03, 2018, 05:00:19 AM
 I made a simplified 'Stiffler Loop' today using just one LED.  Everything is chopped down to bare bones.  I used a small Slayer Exciter to drive it.  How does this work?   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gK-8Sd3W5o
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 03, 2018, 06:11:35 AM
Indeed, saying a lot of us thought we had seen pretty much everything to do with these circuits as table top demo's, this is a bit different. Neat trick indeed with the foil around the plastic part of the LED.
Can it work with just 1 diode ?

Am just about ready to test a crystal circuit on the scope, using a 13.492MHz 2 legged crystal.
The circuit itself is the H2Grow from a few years back, which positively helps plant growth. It does work well for that, but used 27MHz (University of Dublin).
Idea, is to use USB input, run the circuit on that and have a cheap Chinese booster deliver the 20V+ for a fast MOSFET, which is switched by the crystal circuit output.
Am a bit stuck on the MOSFET bit yet, but may try an A49T, most top out at about equiv 10MHz or won't switch at 5V.
Attached is the circuit diagram for the crystal oscillator, plus there's 100uF smoother over the input.

 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 03, 2018, 11:16:39 AM
Hi that's an interesting frequency 27 Mhz since the resonance of the Universe will divide equally into it with no remainder
and so also will the resonance of the earth 8hz and 9hz and also 432hz brilliant  ;D ;D



AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 03, 2018, 04:10:19 PM
   The Schumann resonant frequency, 7.83Hz. I don't know if it's the same as the Universal resonant frequency, outside of our planet. No one has been there to deep space to find out. The moon is still within the vortex of this planet, which is as far as they've gotten. OR so they say, but that's probably just another lie from NASA.
   Perhaps picking a higher harmonic of the Schumann resonant frequency? Since we know that there is something vibrating there.
   The 2.4MHz is where your cell phones, cell towers, and your routers work at.  Easy to get lost in all that noise.

   I don't see the advantage of this new Dr. Stiffler circuit.  Better to return back to using the PSEC, on a real earth ground. which is what I think that the Doc will end up doing.

   So what if you can light an led bulb off an exciter, or signal generator. Or using a 3.7v battery as the input source. Might as well connect the led direct to the 3.7v battery. What are you gaining otherwise?  Not much, if anything that I can see.
   
   Lidmotor:  Maybe you should try a proper Earth ground, to see what that does to your device. It can't hurt.
Unless you want to keep your finger on the diodes, to see the led light up brighter. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 03, 2018, 07:04:04 PM
Older R/C flyers will remember 27MHz clearly, plus 49MHz and 72MHz.
But the Doc did state that the resonant freq of his Cree board was in the 13MHz range.
He's also stated that 13.6MHz is very important, because iirc it was seen on his spectrum analyzer to always be present.
Not all such arrays or LED's will be at that freq....so am presently swapping out crystals and looking at the scope for the cleanliness. The whole point being to help out folks with no signal generator if possible. If there are successes with a simple circuit, then it could be housed in a real bulb.
It would be neat to have a switch on bulbs for A/C mains or Exciter operation and also reminds of the data over the mains thing of the 1980's. Regular household gear would run on the 60Hz, Exciter stuff would run on the far higher frequency, on the same wiring. 

There isn't much cleanliness yet lol, attached is the shot of the 13.4MHz crystal. Looks like I need to adjust the cap values. Transistor is an H945 (had never seen the H variant, so desoldered it from a junker board and threw it in).


I think the point of these latest experiments is to run a bulb from far less power input than would regularly be used. Plus by the very nature of resonance, every bulb would be dimmable. These dollar store ones say 'non dimmable' for example. Also the use of a single wire is far safer than regular mains.

Title: The 'Loop"
Post by: Lidmotor on June 03, 2018, 07:36:51 PM
 The question I have is do certain high frequency signals (with a tiny amount of power pushing it) cause a circular electron flow within the diode 'Loop' or are we seeing something else.  Capacitive coupling, grounding, or standing wave effects are very well understood.  What is going on here? 
  No matter what it is perhaps there are applications for the effect.  I remember 50 years ago when people thought that LEDs were just good for electronic equipment indicator lights. They were too dim in those days for any other use. The same thoughts applied to solar cells.
Cheers,
            Rusty
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 03, 2018, 09:12:41 PM
  Standing waves, or the Stiffler loop. "Which is it".  Both, perhaps. 

   Guys:
   Watch the Docs latest video, posted today, about that.   I think that I know where he's going with all this, but he's still a ways away.
These last few videos are just more tests to see what up with that.
   I would like to tag along, but don't have the high end SG.
   However, I do have a working Kacher circuit, able to output about 5000v, or higher. As well as a 2Mhz signal generator, that's just collecting dust. I don't know if any of that would really do, here.
   
   We need to know the exact turn count on his coils, including the new one he added just today.
And if it's pvc hot water pipe for his former? Along with any other info needed.

   As the Doc would like to see some replication efforts, instead of just comments without hands on, to back things up.
   I think that the Doc's been reading my post, and finally is showing the possible effects of the stray AC output on his AV plug/led tester, that he is now showing on his last video today. Although he calls it something else.
  So, bottom line is... That there is more to this than meets the eye.
  And, we could use his help, here on this thread, as well. 
  So,   Dr. Stiffler,  please sign in and give us a hand.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 03, 2018, 09:32:50 PM
   Slider:   You mentioned: "I think the point of these latest experiments is to run a bulb from far less power input than would regularly be used. Plus by the very nature of resonance, every bulb would be dimmable".                                                                                      end quote.

    Well, that may be part of it, but I think that another part of the goal is to understand where any extra energy is coming from, if such exists, what is it, and just how to best tap into it.
   As you may know, there is no way to currently test for Aether sources. So, it's a tough call... we can only test for its "effects".
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on June 03, 2018, 10:06:22 PM
I know Nick can't post the Stiffler links from his I phone / Cup and string.....

so here are some links

Today   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_ynVaUGHM

2 days ago  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkuvHgCmm6U

3 days ago  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z9ae0MkfbQ

Chet K
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 03, 2018, 10:11:20 PM
   Thanks,  Chet. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: deslomeslager on June 03, 2018, 10:13:15 PM
Ronald did not see my second comment on YT. In reply to my first comment he clearly stated 27 mc is not okay. So here is my 2 cents for a better solution:
Google for "NFC Reader writer USB RFID 13.56 Mhz"
It usually is USB powered so the voltage will be low. Far from 20 Volts peak to peak. Perhaps it is closer to 2 Volts peak to peak.
Perhaps we have a developer in the house with an RFID reader?
If not, take your SFC apparatus to the store and try it there :-) It won't harm their equipment.
I don't have one, all I have is a 20 Mhz sinus generator max. 1 Volt peak to peak :-(
Of course I did not even try it out. (it runs over USB on a windows 95 program, old stuff).
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 04, 2018, 12:19:07 AM
Hi Nick,

I think the answer to Dr Stiffler's  'which is which question'  is: the current loop is into which the single super bright LED is embedded and the Cree LED board on the lower left is fed by the 'standing waves'.

If you have a certain size of enamelled copper wire between say awg 24 to 33, you could make a single layer air coil on a PVC pipe of say 3 to 4 cm OD and say with 20-25 cm length then you could wind a coil which very likely has an SRF of less than 2 MHz your generator already works. 

I used coil32 free coil calculator see here http://coil32.net/ (http://coil32.net/)  and I estimated the above and below data by that.

On a 3 cm OD, 25 cm long PVC pipe a coil with 610 turns from d=0.32 mm enamelled copper wire gives an SRF of  1.979 MHz and this self resonant frequency would be less than that when you connect the coil into the Dr Stiffler circuit.  Winding length would be about 19.5 cm when using the 0.32 mm wire.  If you have other sizes for the pipe or wire, the calculator estimates the data.

Gyula



  Standing waves, or the Stiffler loop. "Which is it".  Both, perhaps. 

   Guys:
   Watch the Docs latest video, posted today, about that.   I think that I know where he's going with all this, but he's still a ways away.
These last few videos are just more tests to see what up with that.
   I would like to tag along, but don't have the high end SG.
   However, I do have a working Kacher circuit, able to output about 5000v, or higher. As well as a 2Mhz signal generator, that's just collecting dust. I don't know if any of that would really do, here.
   
   We need to know the exact turn count on his coils, including the new one he added just today.
And if it's pvc hot water pipe for his former? Along with any other info needed.

   As the Doc would like to see some replication efforts, instead of just comments without hands on, to back things up.
   I think that the Doc's been reading my post, and finally is showing the possible effects of the stray AC output on his AV plug/led tester, that he is now showing on his last video today. Although he calls it something else.
  So, bottom line is... That there is more to this than meets the eye.
  And, we could use his help, here on this thread, as well. 
  So,   Dr. Stiffler,  please sign in and give us a hand.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 04, 2018, 12:56:53 AM
...

There isn't much cleanliness yet lol, attached is the shot of the 13.4MHz crystal. Looks like I need to adjust the cap values. Transistor is an H945 (had never seen the H variant, so desoldered it from a junker board and threw it in).

I think the point of these latest experiments is to run a bulb from far less power input than would regularly be used. Plus by the very nature of resonance, every bulb would be dimmable. These dollar store ones say 'non dimmable' for example. Also the use of a single wire is far safer than regular mains.
Hi Slider,

I repeat here my answer given to you elsewhere, perhaps it helps others here.

Your 13.4 Mhz oscillator waveform needs some 'cleaning' to get rid of the two peaks in the positive halfwaves that may trigger your proposed MOSFET switch twice during the positive halfwaves. To do the 'cleaning', just make the coil in the collector (if there is a coil there, lol, there should be) somehow tuneable if possible.  But wait,

 You could 'crank up' the oscillator amplitude for 'free' by using a tapped tank circuit whereby the collector would be connected to a coil tap so that only 25-30% of the full coil turns would be between the collector and the positive rail and a tuning capacitor would be connected across the full coil to tune it to 13.4 MHz. Of course you would need to tinker with the coil full inductance to bring it to resonate with say a 50 pF to 100 pF variable or trimmer cap or just with a 40 pF trimmer cap. To do this you would need about a 4 uH coil tapped around a quarter part of its full number of turns. (Maybe you have an L meter?)

This way you should have ample peak to peak sine wave voltage across the coil in the order of 10, 15 or 20 Vpp (depends on the Q of the tank and the supply voltage) and of course the capacitive loading nature of Dr Stiffler's circuit as a whole should not appear as a heavy load to the 'hot point' of the LC tank where the other end wire of the coil and the other end of the tuning cap is tied together and is otherwise left 'floating'. If the capacitive loading nature of the Stiffler circuit pulls the LC tank from the crystal resonance, then you can retune the tank by the variable or the trimmer capacitor, watching the waveform on the scope across the coil.

 I agree with you on the point you wrote above:  very likely the goal would be to excite the Dr Stiffler circuit with "voltage" (which is created by a very low power oscillator) and not from a 'beefy' generator (even if the generator output is not loaded by the usual way).  Whether a low power oscillator is able to excite the Doc circuit with "voltage" it remains to be seen.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 04, 2018, 01:14:44 AM
   Gyulasun:   Good to hear from you.   As I mentioned, I have a coil that I have been using for HV experiments, (on another Akula/Ruslan type of device).   Since I'm waiting for parts for a new driver circuit, before I build that new circuit up, I may have some time to do something on this thread.
   I do have and use a simple Kacher driver for the Kacher (Tesla Coil) circuit presently, for the HV tests. Which free runs at about 1.1Mhz, as is. Or with just the secondary (TC type coil) itself, (no type of top load), can run at higher frequencies. Ferrite inside the TC core can vary the frequency from about 800KHz, to the free running frequency of 1.1MHz. But, can also free run to about 3.1Mhz, also, without anything added onto it's output side. Once the HV has been stepped down by other coils, it can light up incandescent bulbs, 25w very brightly, 50w about half bright, and even a 100w bulb, to about 1/4 brightness, or less, but still lighting it. Which might be overkill for this type of project, but, I'm looking to do more than just to light an low wattage led.Still though, the info on how this capacitive link works to what the Doc was calling "spacial resonance" is what interests me, at this time. Not just lighting up some bulbs.
   And, also as mentioned, I have a 2MHz SG. I forget just how many volts it can output, it's not much, but it can light an led.
   So, I would need to find a lower harmonic of the Doc's running frequency, to be able to see some effects, on my set up. I think.   And just what to look for, or expect to see, as something to aim for.

    Lidmotor just posted another new video, placing his little driver circuit inside a microwave oven.  And, his circuit's neon bulb is still shinning inside the improvised Faraday cage.  Nice to see... But, then it's running on the pre-charged capacitor, and not any outside influence. So, I wouldn't expect it to go out, when it's inside the microwave cage.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 04, 2018, 01:17:18 AM
Nick all those frequency's you quoted all divide equally by 8 > 8hhz < strange that, whenever I build a Tesla coil and let it self oscillate It always locks on to a multiple of the 8hz, the 13.57 I assume it's an of the shelf available 'crystal' HCu18 device which is almost 1/2 wave that can be pulled into tune, the 432 is a highly comparable energy frequency Bob Beck almost preached about look up Bob to find out more.
re 9hz is the universal energy comparable with the universe Tesla also noticed the connection with 3 and 6 = 9  again any combination of 432 has a connection with this energy field provided it can be divided by 8 and 9. note not all mushrooms are edible but you can learn how to be a real fun guy finding about live on the way.

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 04, 2018, 02:17:26 AM
Hi Nick,

Somehow an answer would be needed for you whether using the 1-2 MHz frequencies instead of 13.56 Mhz the Dr Stiffler circuit works or not.  I strongly assume it would also work, it cannot be so much frequency dependent, the only drawback would seem to be the use of higher sized coils i.e. more copper wire to get the 1-2 MHz self resonant frequency.

If your HV coil has around 1.1 MHz self resonant frequency (sorry I did not follow closely the other thread), then that coil would be good to include it into the Doc circuit (which has but one air core coil at around 13.56 MHz).
And you would still need the Kacher driver circuit to get the 15-20 V sine wave at also around the 1.1 MHz frequency, this would drive your Doc circuit which would include your HV coil with its own 1.1 MHz self resonance frequency.

Sorry if I misunderstand you with your available possibilities but these are the minimum "ingredients" for your possible Doc test setup.
This is why I suggested to you earlier to wind a coil for lower than 2 MHz self resonant frequency because using it in the Doc circuit your 2 MHz SG could be used to drive it, albeit depending on its maximum output amplitude. But if it is small for the job, a simple MOSFET amplifier could be built to enhance the some volt SG output to as high as 10 or 20V peak to peak.  I know these are not so simple to build and the outcome may not justify the trouble at all. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 04, 2018, 04:13:50 AM
   Gyula:   My kacher circuit looks like this image below.   The answer to whether this would work along with the Docs loop and standing wave circuit, can only be found out by trying it out.   I can run it on just a few volts, also. Like whatever voltage is needed that will work at. I can also connect it up to a small 5W solar panel, which can give it 20v, and a few hundred mAs input.
 
   My idea with this, is to see if I can tune it into the "spacial resonant" mode. Or, at least try to find out what that may be all about.    First, some images taken without taking the secondary coil of the TC all apart, or adding turns to it.
   The second image below, is a scope shot which was taken just now, of my Kacher free running with no top load at 2MHz.
And may have a range of around from 1MHz to 2MHz, by using ferrite inside the secondary coil.
Of course, changing the input voltage can change the running frequency. So, I'll have to play around with that.  This I believe may be a more powerful way to play in the Docs world of magic. 
  Where HE is a magician, a real one.                                                       
                                                        NickZ
  EDIT:  Dr. Stiffler wanted to get a hold of TinMan, so it someone can put him in touch with the Doc, it would be appreciated.           
    The more people trying out different version of these circuits, the better.             "Variety is the spice of life"

   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 04, 2018, 12:59:24 PM
Deleted This ain't no longer the Dr Stiffler as it's turning into another Dally TK thread

Sorry about that.

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 04, 2018, 02:43:59 PM
Hi Nick,

Thanks for showing your setup that is fine and surely can provide a nice sine wave between the 1 to 2 MHz range with an adjustable amplitude of your wish.
But I think you still need to wind another single layer coil with roughly similar mechanical sizes the secondary coil now has and when you have this new coil, then you could test a Dr Stiffler setup which has only a single coil i.e. not his presently the latest one which has already two coils in the current loop that includes a single super bright LED too.

I think if you try to see if you can tune your present secondary into a "spatial (spacial?) resonant" mode and do not wish to use an additional coil of similar size, then your setup would differ from that of the Doc setup because of the inductive coupling driving method the Kacher 5 turn primary provides to the secondary now inductively. The Doc drives any of his recent setups by a single wire attached to the 'hot' output of a SG. In your case this can only be achieved by attaching a single wire to the hot (top) end of your secondary coil where a top load is normally attached if needed.

Of course, you can try to use your presently shown secondary coil in the recent Stiffler setup (that needs only one air core coil) and drive the secondary coil inductively from the 5 turn Kacher primary, so no need for a single wire drive as the Doc did.  In this case you need not make another single layer coil of similar size the secondary presently has.  IMHO though, in this case, you alter a little from the original Doc setup by using a different driving method, be aware of it, that is all.

Anyway, this my take on these and it remains to be seen whether a low power oscillator (not neccessarily a Kacher one) with 10-20V peak to peak voltages across its tank coil could or could not drive one of the Doc setups to get similar brightness for the Cree LEDs as he has driven them from an SG.
His SG surely has the usual 50 Ohm output impedance. 20 Vpp is roughly 7 V RMS, so the power level involved at the output of his SG is nearly 1 Watt. But not the 1 W power drives his setup because only the hot output of the SG "sees" the load of his setup, this may be considered as a kind of capacitive load for the SG, and this load should have much less than 1 W power consumption.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 04, 2018, 05:50:02 PM
Some amazing posts with more details than I can fully appreciate in 1 reading !
Especially your help Gyula.
Things are moving on well with understandings and hopefully, along the way, Dr. Stiffler himself may join in. It's obvious to any reader that this thread has the intent of discovery, not just pure replication.

From witnessing the effects on the table at 1.5V and noting how receiving setups can actually run better by being further away from the Exciter, it's forming a different understanding.
Another understanding is that I think the crystal oscillator circuit has had a huge flaw. The output is supposed to be on the positive, but i've been running an N-channel MOSFET (AO3404, A49T), with which of course the negative signal is switched to 20V - oops
I do have the P-channel equivalents somewhere.
Otherwise, could we be looking at developing a variant of the Doc's SEC range, incorporating some sort of step up booster (JT) and be able to tune the MHz output like a sig gen with no screen ? Something where using variable pots or capacitors produces 20V at 13MHz...plus variances up and down. 
Title: Old News?
Post by: Lidmotor on June 04, 2018, 08:24:45 PM
  I mentioned this before but I did this basic experiment years ago.  I used both a 1MHZ and a 13MHz crystal oscillator running off a 9v battery to get the signal.  The simple circuit drove a pulse motor off a one wire feed.  The question is how much power was pumping out of that one wire.  I have a scope hooked up to the 1MHz circuit in this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4zEpTpiais&t=238s
   
   If I can find that 13MHz crystal I will put the rig together again and take another look.

  ---- Rusty
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 04, 2018, 10:34:18 PM
Hi Slider,

Sorry but I do not get this:  "Another understanding is that I think the crystal oscillator circuit has had a huge flaw. The output is supposed to be on the positive, but i've been running an N-channel MOSFET (AO3404, A49T), with which of course the negative signal is switched to 20V - oops"

What is exactly the flaw? 

Which output did you mean: the crystal oscillator or the FET amplifier output? 

Could you make a simple hand drawn schematic on your oscillator and the MOSFET amplifier?

First it would good to build a normal oscillator with the 13.4 MHz crystal.  Then continue from there if an oscillator with a  low output impedance is needed to drive the Doc circuit through the single wire.
Here is a simple crystal oscillator, out of many variations, and it has a high impedance output point due to the 'hot' end of the resonant LC tank circuit.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 04, 2018, 11:45:53 PM
Hi Lidmotor,
You asked in your above post:  "The question is how much power was pumping out of that one wire. "
It is difficult to measure, perhaps with a non inductive precision resistor which inserted in series with the single wire output that then is connected to the 22 uH choke and measure the voltage drop across it by a 2 channel scope with differential measurement technics...  which means the scope probes ground clips are left unconnected and floating and two pins of the two probes are connected to the two legs of the resistor. 
Perhaps a simpler method would be to use a load resistor across the + and -  outputs of the AV plug, also filtered with a puffer capacitor in parallel with it and measure the DC voltage across the resistor, then calculate the DC power. 

I took a snapshot from your video and edited a little to show the a possible measurements of the input DC power to the oscillator.  Unfortunately, the crystal oscillator you use has its own efficiency number, usually it is not specified and the internal circuitry may not be known to have a chance for estimating it.  Normally the usual oscillator circuit types has widely varying efficiency numbers, anything from say 40% to 70%. (Exception can be the so called Class-E type oscillators with over 85-90% efficiency).
With inserting a DC ampermeter into the positive input rail, the effect of connecting or diconnecting the AV plug or say varying the 22 uH choke coil inductance etc could be obseved. The R load resistance could be a few kOhm as a start.
If I may chime in to you, that is.  8)
Gyula
Title: Crystal oscillator circuit
Post by: Lidmotor on June 05, 2018, 05:41:22 AM
Thanks Gyula,

   That info really helps.  I tried to find my old 13 MHZ crystal oscillator but it is lost somewhere.  I ordered some more but I think I might just build up your simple one transistor 13.4MHz crystal circuit and try that instead. That should get the job done  Your input here was of great help. Thanks again.
 
--Rusty
 
Title: Re: Crystal oscillator circuit
Post by: AlienGrey on June 05, 2018, 09:59:43 AM
Thanks Gyula,

   That info really helps.  I tried to find my old 13 MHZ crystal oscillator but it is lost somewhere.  I ordered some more but I think I might just build up your simple one transistor 13.4MHz crystal circuit and try that instead. That should get the job done  Your input here was of great help. Thanks again.
 
--Rusty
 
Mr Lidmotor, Hi there I don't suppose there is any hope you have a 27mhz xtal or any chance you can try the circuit at 13.5 mhz or 27mhz just a thought ?
I should be getting a 13.5 HC module in a day or two my self but dont have a 1mhz to try it against, will let you all know how it goes when i do.

regards AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 05, 2018, 11:36:14 AM
The scope shows two different frequencies and amplitudes. The spec analyzer should show 4 side bands.
The addition of a coil loop forms standing waves for an auxiliary light source. Then there are harmonics.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 05, 2018, 03:45:44 PM
   Guys:
   Ok, so I took my Kacher's secondary coil (Tesla Coil) and disconnected it from everything, so it's just by itself now.
As I had heard the comment that I was turning this thread into something else.  When I haven't even started, yet.
   
   So, I then connected one end of the Tesla coil to my 2MHz signal generator, the other end of the TC coil to an AV plug, ending the plug with an small simple led bulb.
   So, what do you think happened?  Well, it would not light.  However, by tuning the frequency to around 1.5MHz, and adding a clip lead to one side of the plug, the led fires up.  Only at that frequency though.
  So, my SG does work to light an led, on a single wire test.
    I'll show a little video of that, later on today. As what it's showing was a little surprising, at least to me.
And I think that Slider, with get a kick out of it, for sure.
   
    So, Gyula, I think that I'm ready to continue with some more tests on the Doc's loop, and standing waves, etz...    I just don't know which one of his tests to go for.
    Any suggestions...
    As you know, I'm more interested in finding the anomaly, than just to light some bulbs, using just a tiny bit of power.
 
    If the Doc is listening, please join us, here. As we could easily stray off course, without your help.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 05, 2018, 04:11:00 PM
Nick - Now you've started with the clip leads there's no going back  8)
They make a very noticeable difference to any set up that is far stronger than regular wire. Is it the gauge, the metal on the ends ?

Gyula - oh it's the simple thing of the Pierce based oscillator output being switched on the negative rail, when we want the improvised signal generator to switch the positive. The 13.4MHz comes out of the circuit, goes into the MOSFET and its Source is to the negative.
But surely for a sig gen we would want the positive signal being switched on and off at that rate. Or, I should say, make the positive signal be what is created and switched by a MOSFET.
I can't find those P channels....but got side-tracked with family matters yesterday.

Rusty - The scope output did change markedly in that waver vid with the 22uH choke, far more than i'm used to seeing. Normally the wave edges just get rounded off ! 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 05, 2018, 04:39:31 PM
   Slider and All:   
   What I'm seeing is that the running frequency of these device tests, will and does vary by quite a bit, when changing loads or moving the hand or body closer or further away from the coil circuit. Or even if you just breath on this thing.   So, I doubt that a steady signal frequency is what's needed to keep up with the changing running frequencies.
If you just plan on tuning the thing to that one frequency 13.4MHz, you may find that you are stuck to just what that single frequency can do. So, a controllable frequency, like when using a signal generator, may be the better way to go, for these types of tests.  So, maybe the thing is to build a circuit that can be controlled, to some degree, if possible, like a SG can do.
Yet, has some kick to it, and some 20v plus out of it, as well.    There are no home made oscillators circuits that I know of, that will work well at 13.4MHz. And can be controlled, also.
Perhaps Gyula can have some advice, there.
   Slider, yes, the clip lead's metal crock ends are what is doing the trick. As compare to touching the plug with your finger, or just a plain wire. So, that makes me think, (or not to think), if the clip lead is acting as a ground, (which I doubt). Since an actual earth ground just kills it.  Or,  more as antenna,  or both.   
   "Which is it"...

   EDIT:  Here's my first attempt at this: Please check my YT video channel, under Nick Zec    Or click here: https://youtu.be/G-qzbiyAVNw
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 05, 2018, 06:48:51 PM
look up AFC circuits and see if you can add Automatic frequency feed back to stabilize it by tracking the drift.
My bits haven't arrived yet

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 05, 2018, 08:05:28 PM
AFC circuits are a good idea...there's a wealth of knowledge in RF circuitry as yet not looked at for what it could reveal. In my opinion, answers and furtherment.

Is there a point to making something that includes the Jeanna's Light or perhaps Lasersaber's HF devices ? The current and voltages being far more adjustable than Slayer or Kacher circuits.
We then tune and form them into Exciters with Dr. Stiffler's approaches and the ferrite rods, for finer frequency control and resonance.
There has to be a JT approach in this somewhere rather than $600 of pro equipment...for study purposes that anyone could build.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 05, 2018, 11:19:34 PM
Hi Nick,

Well, some notices if I may:

Do not bother on the unstable sine wave seen on the scope in this case, it can be from the lack of the ground connection to the SG and there may be an interference between the mains frequency (that the coil picks up in the room) and the generator output frequency. If you wish, switch off the SG and set the scope to a more sensitive amplitude range and also the timebase to say 10 or 20 ms/DIV. If nothing is seen, touch the probe tip by your finger to see whether any picked up mains amplitude with the mains frequency appears. Perhaps the mains frequency leaks out from the SG via the one wire you drive the coil, not very likely but could be.

If you can see the SG output on the scope (when you check it directly across the SG's BNC output) as a stabil and normal sine wave, no any trembling etc, than that is ok, move on this, do not care. I understand it can be disturbing to see such waveform.

On the (erraticly) changing self resonant frequency of your coil:  This is also normal, unfortunately. The winding first of all needs a stable and rigid bobbin, otherwise you push the cloth on the table etc and it changes. The movement of the yellow clip lead also influences it and whenever you remove any metal 'thing' from the coil end, you should retune the frequency on the SG to find the new resonant frequency. This means that when you check the floating end of the coil with another AV plug, you need to tune the coil again to resonance. Remember how sensitive a Tesla secondary coil is for even a small 'top load' which can be a piece of wire etc, it detunes the coil.

Also, the moment you connect the hot output of the SG to the end of the coil via a single wire, the SRF changes, it also changes when you drive it via your 5 turn primary coil from the Kacher circuit but the oscillator kinda follows the change which may be less with inductive coupling though but the oscillator does not care where it oscillates if it can oscillate.

So far you have nicely found the self resonant frequency (SRF) of your multiturn single layer coil when one of its ends is driven from the SG and its other end is floating and loaded with an AV plug and with a piece of wire via the AV plug.  Please, this is not really what the Doc's setups are about and he showed in the previous 3 or 4 videos...  sorry to notice this, no offense intended.

The use of AV plug(s) in itself may never give ou probably because they cannot pick up all the RF energy the source provides or emits from itself.

And see the Doc's videos what he uses the two diodes for, for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTSMNB4h9U8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTSMNB4h9U8) (do not pay much attention to the voltage or power numbers yet). It is worth rewatching his last 5 videos to understand the setup better.  In the link I refere to he speeks about the diodes role in the first half minute or so.

So I think the replication should then start with obtaining a LED board he shows, his board is made by CREE if I got it correctly and then trying to assemble his setup. 

You can choose to build variable RF oscillators and amplifiers if needed but it involves further resources and knowledge, unfortunately. I apologize again, no offense is meant with this.
See these links for instance what is involved for a good oscillator:
http://www.gqrp.com/ColpittsVFO.pdf (http://www.gqrp.com/ColpittsVFO.pdf) or please see Figure 2 in page 3 of this PDF file: http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/8912018.pdf (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/8912018.pdf)  and in Part 2 you can see a power amplifier in Figure 5 with a cheap IRF510 MOSFET to linearly amplify a 14 MHz speech modulated RF signal: http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9001028.pdf (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9001028.pdf)
Amateur radio fans build such things and lots of other oscillator circuits are described and can be found on the web.

I believe that this should be the route for you only if a CREE LED board (or maybe other make) does not work in the 1-2 MHz range (your SG operates at) like it does in the Doc's setup in the 13.45 or 13.5 MHz frequencies, this is my take on this.

I probably missed it if the Doc specifically referred to this frequency as the only one where the LEDs bright up like he shows in his setups.  Anyone have heard this in one of his earlier videos? please tell.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 05, 2018, 11:54:08 PM

....
Gyula - oh it's the simple thing of the Pierce based oscillator output being switched on the negative rail, when we want the improvised signal generator to switch the positive. The 13.4MHz comes out of the circuit, goes into the MOSFET and its Source is to the negative.
But surely for a sig gen we would want the positive signal being switched on and off at that rate. Or, I should say, make the positive signal be what is created and switched by a MOSFET.
I can't find those P channels....but got side-tracked with family matters yesterday.

....
Hi Slider,

Dr Stiffler mentioned that sine waves are to be used and square waves are out of question in his setups. To produce sine waves, linear (and not switching) circuits should be used. See the links I included in my above post.

If you mean for instance that an N channel MOSFET switches on for a positive waveform (which is higher of course than the threshold gate-source voltage) then it is okay and I understand what you wanted to say above and probably some days ago  but we need to use MOSFETs or bipolar transistors in linear mode to amplify sine waves for the Doc's setup.  An active device biased for its most linear region should be used  i.e. biased for Class-A or Class-AB operation to avoid or reduce distortion. 

Gyula

Edited for more clarification
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 06, 2018, 06:04:55 AM
  Gyula:   Thanks for all the info, much appreciated.   I've made another video tonight. Showing the lighting of a cree type led board, as well as the multi color bulb that I showed on the first video. I'll post a link to it tomorrow,as it's late here now.
  I will check all the Docs last few videos along with the latest one he posted today, later on.
 I realize that I've not yet started to actually try to replicate  any of the Docs effects, but I am going in that direction. Just seeing what my SG could do to light some leds which I had on hand, first. But, now I'm ready to start some of his current loop tests, etz...
  Has the Doc actually showed any over unity, himself?  That is almost impossible to prove, or not?   A self runner has to ultimately be on the list.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Belfior on June 06, 2018, 10:32:53 AM
crystals for 13.56MHz

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-13-56MHz-13-56M-Crystal-Oscillator-HC-49S-Through-Holes-13-56MHz-Oscillator-New-Free/32510818008.html
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 06, 2018, 03:47:50 PM
   Guys:   I just uploaded another video, showing the lighting of multiple bulbs, while testing what my signal generator can do to light them.   These are just preliminary tests, to determine how the multiple led bulb will light up from my signal generator's sine wave signal, onto my Tesla coil, through an AV plug, and direct to a modified 5w AC led bulb. No other circuit is connected.
Yet, when turning off the signal generator, 3 leds remain lit, most likely from the stray capacitive AC in my home wiring.
   I will be working on the Stiffler Loop, and standing wave tests, next.
   I just wanted to show that even a very low powered signal generator is enough to light some led bulbs, on just the positive connection, with no negative connection from the SG.  Although this would probably not even happen, to any degree, if it were not by a single wire transfer, through the AV plug.  I will try the capacitive link to the back plate of the led's pcb, (my leds don't have a metal heat sink).  So, I'll have to improvise on a make shift heat sink, and see how that goes. On my next video. 
   In the mean time, here's the video I made last night:   https://youtu.be/hdDkeK291Zo (https://youtu.be/hdDkeK291Zo)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 06, 2018, 05:09:25 PM
That's quite the neat video Nick...those 3 seem to be completely on their own and unaffected by the sig gen when that is in action.
The others come on, but those 3 don't seem to change, however they do when you touch the heatsink. The way it failed must have isolated them in some way that still allows them to light via your other connections. They should go out when your house mains is off, but still, what is causing quite the decent output for mains leak in the first case ?
I wonder what would happen if you turn off the house mains, but attach an outside ground stake to those 3. Would surrounding houses mains dumps be enough.
If they work outdoors with or without your mains, you would have something of use there perhaps, for putting at both sides of a walkway gate as markers at night, that sort of thing. No batts, runs all the time. Especially useful as a scavenger if your house mains was off and they still worked.


Am building the Colpitts from Gyula's post above, many thanks for that !
Apparently Dr. Stiffler started with a Colpitts that looks to be quite similar (well it would be wouldn't it lol) and then progressed onward to his SEC 18 and beyond.
Am setting mine up for 14MHz, but will report the initial MHz if it runs.
L1 is the inductor from a Dollar Tree 8W LED bulb, which should help if this works out for sourcing stuff. Other components are coming from junker radio type boards.
Oh and how do I pronounce your name if there is a vid, though not wanting to jump the gun. Is it 'Guy oola' ?   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 06, 2018, 07:26:26 PM
Hi Nick,
Okay and just carry on, and hopefully a heatsink i.e. an appropiately sized metal plate fastened thoroughly onto the back of the LED board may also do the 'trick'.  Try not to leave as small air gap between the back plane of the board and the heatsink, that would insure a close coupling and  when it works then you may adjust the in-between 'gap' by inserting some pices of paper sheets to see whether it infuences the effect or not.

Hi Slider,
Well, building the 14 MHz oscillator, it is always casual for an LC oscillator where it actually would work for the fist switch-on, but you can then trim as needed.
If you pronounce the word " due " with UK and not US style that would sound pretty close to the first syllable " Gyu " in my name and simply add the " la " after it, ok?   8)     Thanks,   Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 07, 2018, 06:53:08 AM
Have just posted a sort of roundup video on the various circuits being built and tried out here.
But also found that there were wireless possibilities with a Jeanna's Light.
Most boosters, even JT's will do wireless things with no load, but I had never tried that one.
Was looking for a simple well known circuit for adding a tunable output, with some upscaling from a low input. See, to me, we can start at any voltage and end up with 20V+, but frequency adjustment is more difficult.
The Jeanna's Light circuit isn't very tunable and runs at a terrible frequency for our purposes, 48kHz.
However, it does have simplicity and wireless uses in its favour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8xJUQF1ROk
(3min 44sec)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 08, 2018, 02:40:09 AM
   I have not been able to obtain any positive result with the Stiffer loop by placing an aluminum plate behind the led board.  The SG will light the bulbs when it is directly connected but not by using the capacities link.
  My signal generator can light an led emergency light with 64 leds on it no problem,  and quite brightly, but not even a single led capacitively.  Voltage is about 3 or 4 volts from the SG, with enough current to light the 64 led lights, but the capacitive loop needs the 20 or more volts to light the bulbs,  and won't do anything on 3 volts.

   However,  by connecting up my Tesla coil circuit on a 12v input,  the capacitive link works. It probably puts out 1000v to the multi led bulb.  Talk about over driving that bulb...
Title: Crystal Oscillator Exciter
Post by: Lidmotor on June 08, 2018, 07:41:45 PM
Good News.  I found my old 13.6829 MHz oscillator and replicated that 2013 experiment.  I changed a few things and used a ferrite rod tunable coil.  It is basically a backwards way of doing what Dr. Stiffler is doing.  The 13MHz signal stays constant and the coil is tuned.  This was a fascinating experiment because I am driving the led through a thin band of aluminum around the plastic led and virtually grounding the AV plug to a block of aluminum. I'm not sure if this experiment proves anything.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nDjoVB2UVE

Cheers,
            Rusty
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 08, 2018, 08:24:00 PM
   Lidmotor:   Now you need to see if the oscillator crystal will light a bigger led bulb, using the capacitive link.
   I found that I could not light a bigger bulb using the capacitance link by using my signal generator's input source. As it's too weak (at 3v) to light bigger bulbs. The Doc is using a 20v input, and obtaining about 61 volts output, to the led bulb. I believe.
   
  I think that you'll find that without the big heat sink, there is no light, or very little light coming out of the single led. So, the  heatsink grounding, may not be a true "loop". Or is it? As the Doc does not need to connect to a heat sink, of course, it's because he is using much higher voltage, and who knows what the actual current readings are being drawn. So far he has not been able show any OU. So, whatever his secret is, it is still unknown, at least to me.

   I hope that the Doc provides more useful information, than just being able to light an led board with less input.
As his PSEC circuit could partially light 50 led, with no input source, just an earth ground line connected to it.
So, how is this loop idea going to be something actually useful?  He has mentioned that he is going somewhere with all of this.So, I hope to see that sometime soon.   I am uploading another new video, so watch for the link in my next post.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 08, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
Nick - If the PSEC running 50 LED's was the 3 tuned coils and outdoors Ground, then I think we're all learning how to do such things. It's gradual, along the way learning tricks and tips. At some point someone is going to walk in with a PSEC 2 ?!
 

Congrats Rusty !
THAT is exactly what's needed as a circuit for anyone to try. It has the right output frequency, is tunable and could switch a fast enough MOSFET for the 20V.
By contrast, I have the 'Hyper Complex Oscillator Exciter' running now. A weirded out Colpitts running at 13.7MHz. It can be tuned up and down from that figure with the addition or subtraction of wire on the L1, but it's nothing like as readily usable as a ferrite choke.
The big difference is that instead of the usual tank with 2 caps, I only have 1 cap and no tank. It was running at about 6MHz and getting a bit warped on the sinewave, until I inadvertently knocked the other cap off the board..breadboard by the way, not a good idea but allowed fast swapping of components.
The cap of a regular Colpitt's tank section that is connected to Vcc is now not even there.
The scope produced a much cleaner 12MHz wave, so I removed another turn and there it was, 13.7MHz. Adding just about 1mm of wire then brought it to 13.6MHz and it goes lower with more wire.

Pic of the thing and a scope shot:

Title: The 'LOOP' mystery
Post by: Lidmotor on June 08, 2018, 09:42:48 PM
  Nick and Slider you bring up some very good questions.  I don't think Dr. Stiffler is going to help us much now. I think that we are on our own.  As far as this latest effort to replicate his 'Loop' experiments I think this is possible if one has the proper equipment.  He has never claimed that these are OU events but we make the poor assumption that they are. 
  I found this 2008 paper he wrote (with lots of pics) on electrolysis using a SEC 15-3.  There are some spectrum screen shots showing the spikes.  Besides 13.6 MHZ there is another one a 10.6 MHz.  http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SECElectrolysis.htm.html

   Slider ---You are right there sitting at that frequency in a perfect sine wave.  You should be able to replicate the Doc's exact experiment.  If not then the question is --why?

---Rusty
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 08, 2018, 10:03:06 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

I think your test approaches that of Dr Stiffler in that you excite a LED capacitively by an RF field and it is able to emit light when at the same time you close its circuit pins with the two diodes.

I would suggest one thing if I may: wrap up say two (instead of the one) such white LEDs into the Alu foil or stripe (whatever you use) and connect their pins in series +-+- to add up their forward voltages and then connect the two diodes to them properly too. Perhaps the two LEDs would be able to light up too, no need to change the 9V supply to the oscillator.

If you do not have info on the ferrite rod RF performance what frequency it was manufactured for then you may lose resonant power in the coil. It is very convenient to tune the coil with it for sure. Perhaps a second, smaller air core coil coupled to the main coil could tune out the setup without the ferrite core. Just a thought.

Later,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 08, 2018, 11:14:15 PM
Have posted a quick video, showing the weird Colpitt's running, the circuit diagram and the scope showing the frequency and waveform.
Also, a Captret type of method of lighting an LED on an AV plug from the circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxcyTwj6YEw
(2min 54sec)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 09, 2018, 12:35:25 AM
Hi Slider,

Okay on the oscillator, finally you have it, it looks like a grounded base circuit with feedback between collector and emitter, and the tuning capacitor of L1 is C2 (this gives the feedback at the same time too) via C3.  So you still have a parallel tank,  L1 C2, the parallel connection comes about via C3, then via the emitter point and via the 5 V supply, AC wise.
Stability comes from the relatively high value of C2, 0.3 nF for resonating L1 at around 13-14 MHz. Generally such feedback capacitor needs to be less than 15 - 22 pF value between emitter and collector, this high value explains why the other cap is not needed and why the frequency changes so much for a small amount of wire removal in L1.
I do not think you would need to change anything in this oscillator, maybe the DC operational point of the transistor could be checked by varying R2 by using a 10 kOhm trimmer potmeter and watch the output on the scope, switch on and off the supply voltage to see how safely it starts up etc. A very fine tuning in frequency may be had by placing say 3-12 pF trimmer cap across the coil (or across the emitter resistor...).  Perhaps you need to remove a half turn still if you wish to use that small value trimmer cap for fine tuning.

Does the big coil you drive with the oscillator via the single wire resonates at the oscillator frequency? It could be checked by placing the scope probe near to that coil to pick up the waves capacitively and see voltage maximum as the oscillator is fine tuned.
Thanks for mentioning me in the previous video, it is fine.   8)

Gyula
Title: Re: The 'LOOP' mystery
Post by: gyulasun on June 09, 2018, 12:41:23 AM
....

   Slider ---You are right there sitting at that frequency in a perfect sine wave.  You should be able to replicate the Doc's exact experiment.  If not then the question is --why?

---Rusty
Well, does Slider or others have the Cree LED board with the heatsink on its back side the Doc uses?  (sorry if I missed it and he has...).  What forward voltage the LEDs on the board have? do we know?  And the board was made for 110 V or 12 V operation?   I think these would be good to know for a more succesful replication.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 09, 2018, 01:34:21 AM
   Guys:   Here's another new video that I just uploaded.   https://youtu.be/j0B6WyRFPsA (https://youtu.be/j0B6WyRFPsA)
   
   I'll try to find an led with the metal heat sink, in the meantime, this is what I could come up with.
   I don't think that there is much difference in placing aluminum behind the led board, compared to the leds with built in heat sinks. Remember what the Doc said about MASS of the aluminum. More mass, more better...
   I will also try to find some more IN4148 diodes, as some of the ones that I'm using are the H48, which also should be compatible. But, who knows.   I had forgotten to show on the video a neon bulb, lighting up to 6 inches away from the aluminum heat sink. And I'm only running the Kacher on 1/2 it's normal 24v input. That was so it won't hurt as bad when I get hit by it's HV. I'm sure that if I left the circuit running, the leds would all go up in smoke. So, I dropped the input to 12v, and have the power on for only a minute.
   
   Gyula: If you have any more suggestions, I'm all ears. As I'm running out of things to try out.
   I think that adding a ground wire or touching the leds to make them light up better is NOT the way to go.
   It may be that the IN4148 diodes are only letting a limited amount of current through them, (150mA), so the high voltage may just be jumping them, through surface charge. You have a point there. So, the capacitive link is the only way that Docs 13 watt bulbs would be able to light. Placing the finger on the bulbs, kills that process by grounding it, instead. Me thinks... 
   Anyways, let me know what you guys think.
   
Title: Doc's Cree Bulb
Post by: Lidmotor on June 09, 2018, 02:31:27 AM
Slider, Nick, and Guyla
  I cannot get any of my 110v led bulb arrays to light up  >:( .    Something is amiss.  Perhaps that Cree bulb Doc has is part of this mystery???  The bulbs I have taken apart have electronic components mounted on the board like what Nick showed in his last video.  I can partially light up a 12v led array with an Al heat sink ---but that is about it.

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 09, 2018, 03:30:58 AM
Thanks Gyula...that was very very useful info. The circuit breakdown was the best i've read too !
I'll use exactly these parts in the build of it on a soldered board. If it carries on running like this then it would negate the thought of the jumper wires carrying some capacitance to make up for the missing one. As you explained it, the circuit should still work.
Will add the trimmer cap once confirmed that it does run when not on the breadboard.

Nick - I think your question about direction links with Lidmotor's thoughts on the Cree bulb innards. The company is known for high quality gear and presumably their LED's are top drawer quality. But wouldn't the 12V bulbs be the same as the mains ones at the LED's themselves ?
Or, is the wire-up different, more of them in parallel etc.
Anyone got a 12V bulb to compare against ?

Am currently hunting around for 4 pin oscillator modules to give Lidmotor's circuit a try :) 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 09, 2018, 02:56:30 PM
Hi Nick,

Would like to show you a printed circuit board (that are used in some LED lamp types) that has a back side fully covered with Aluminium plate serving as a heat sink. See this link, the photo shows the component side and the back side of the LED boards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/310997850830 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/310997850830)   
or see this crescent shape board here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/301741590729 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/301741590729)   
And the Doc attached the single wire coming from the air core coil roughly to the center of the Alu surface of the LED board. As you show your arrangement with the heat sink (at video time 1:20 for instance) it cannot mimick the closeness of the Alu plate to the surface mount LEDs on the  board the Doc uses or the links show.

Another problem with your small LED panel (that has the 10 LEDs) is that the LEDs are not SMD types so their internal P-N junction can only be RF excited similarly to an SMD type only if you wrap their body up directly with Alu foil (like Lidmotor did with a single LED). Yet, the wrapping up several such cylindrical shaped LEDs is cumbersome and may have questionable results versus the flatly mounted junctions of the SMD LEDs. These latter can receive equal RF field excitations from the back plate of the LED board, that would be important I think.
I draw you attention to another capacitive RF energy coupling method the Doc used, see his earlier video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIcaDtSUT3I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIcaDtSUT3I) 
To do this, you would need a not faulty SMD LED board with the Alu back plate and then attempt to couple it carefully to your Tesla coil (notice what Doc says on the AV plug connection). Probably this setup was the start for RF exciting the SMD LEDs capacitively for him, evolving further on as he showed the SG driven variations instead of the SEC driven method. 
For your long Tesla coil, consider this 25 cm long PCB board offer and you would need to populate it with (14) SMD LEDs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/302686700141 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/302686700141)  For the SMD LEDs, see here say 0.5W types and you would need to solder them onto the boards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/252485708198 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/252485708198)   Of course there are higher power SMD LED types. 

But you may find boards with already populated SMD LEDs but you need to ask the seller whether the board has the Alu back plate or not. I think where there is, then it is either mentioned or not in the title.
I think that any other additional component (IC, diode bridge, resistor) should be left out from a ready made LED lamp board and only the two wires of the series connected LED string should be brought out and close their circuit with the two 1N4148 diodes.

You can connect 2 or 3 1N4148 (or 1N914) diodes in parallel and use two such diode assembly in series for closing the LEDs circuit as needed, this increases their current handling capability for higher current demands. Your H48 types seem also good here, it is similar to the 1N4148 indeed. I do not think the high voltage is jumping them: they either conduct when AC polarity just forward biases them or do not conduct when AC polarity reverse biases them.  And when the rated forward current or reverse voltage is exceeded, they simply fail and become either a piece of wire (short circuit) or an open circuit. 

I found the ebay LED boards (I included above) only a few hours ago and the 5730 type SMD LEDs has roughly 150 mA current at 3.2 V forward voltage (roughly half a Watt input for any one such LED).  I think the LED type used on a particular LED PCB is printed on the PCB board ID number which may start with  two letters and followed by 4 digits, then a dash and also some digits: the 4 digits refer to the LED chip used.  IF you have this, then usually there are data sheets on them from which the forward voltage and current for the type can be learned. Then considering the number of LEDs on the board and any additional circuit involved, the input voltage and possible power level could be figured out.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 09, 2018, 03:09:58 PM
Hi Slider,

Thanks and please do not be discouraged when after building the oscillator on a soldered board you find it does not work just like it did on the proto board...  in this case further tweaking is needed that is all.   ;)
Just use the same components first and after seeing how it works, make some adjustments.

Gyula
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 09, 2018, 06:59:55 PM
Oh, no discouragement if it doesn't work...I hope it doesn't because it's well known that breadboards muck up high frequency circuits. In this case, the presumption is it mucked it up in a positive way.

Those links were good for the bulb parts.
Seems to me that no matter how a circuit does something, if it can do it repeatedly for different people with the same easily available parts then it adds to evidence. I think we do need to know the bulb model that Dr. Stiffler has been using, to be on that same page.
Lighting LED's is only 1 area of any power delivery but so very important.
We found out last night how important that is when we had a large area power cut for 1 1/2 hours. First time in 10 years, though we get blip power cuts about once a week. The coal fired power station is only about 3 miles away, but I think they employ carpenters as electricians.
With a bit of warning lots of tests based on years old questions could have been made, the Stubblefield telephone, soil single wire transmission, everything else that needs the house power and surrounding power to be off. We just didn't know how long it would be off and I failed as a prepper lol. Never trust rechargeables to sit ready for weeks and never go lax on battery charging for emergency solutions !
However, there was 1 very strange observation which needs some consideration for capacitive couplings. Nephilim Penny has been running for nearly 7 years on rain water and is based on Lidmotor's tank circuit JT, but with a large double pancake coil, one on top of the other. I'm very used to it's flashes in the kitchen and the intensity from the LED. During the power cut, it speeded up its flash rate and brightened. I joked that because it's a blue LED people might think the emergency services were at our house....the light was that much brighter than any other time where the kitchen main light is off. However, was it just my eyesight having changed because of the low general light everywhere else, to make it seem so bright. That doesn't explain the speed up, from 1 per second to 3 per second. The thing also reacts to storms moving in, but anyway, just an observation.



 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 09, 2018, 11:21:32 PM
   Guys:   
   I think that I found the perfect substitute for the led bulb that the Doc is using. It works great as it has a glass enclosure with a reflective metal lining, and does the same type of capacitive effect that Doctor Stiffler is showing.  I will add the two IN4148 diodes to complete the circuit,  and I'll show it running in the next video.   
  It's a 120v, with 24 leds, but it doesn't say what wattage it may be, in any case it seams to work for what we need it to do.
  Although the reflective surface is not touching the leds, it still works fine when capacitively connected to my Kacher circuit.  I don't know how it would work on just 20v, but it is worth looking into it.

   BTW:  Slider, the three leds that stayed lit when I turned off the input to the Kacher circuit during my video, did go out when I turned off my house breakers.
   I think that the red leds that the Doc showed lighting on some of his earlier PSEC videos, may well be lightlng from his stray capacitive AC, as well.   There was a guy that showed 100 leds lighting on his version of the PSEC. Which is the circuit that interests me the most.
It needed No battery, no signal generator, no Tesla coil, no loop (possibly), and it was lighting the 100 leds, on just a ground line. Which probably means that it's not just lighting all those 100 leds from the stray AC.  I believe.
However, that particular video is not on YT any more, as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 10, 2018, 12:54:32 AM
Hello Nick,
With careful handling the wires, you may wish to measure the AC current from the 120V mains if you wish. You surely have a DMM that is able to measure AC current.  This way the power of the LED lamp could be estimated pretty close. 
Isn't the type of the lamp printed on the body? 
The 24 LEDs if they are all in series have about 77 V added up forward voltage drop if they are around 3.2-3.3 V each.  If this is so, then there has to be a input voltage reducing circuit inside, probably with a dedicated linear regulator, after a diode bridge and puffer capacitor.   

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 10, 2018, 02:33:50 AM
   Here is an image of the HUNTER led bulb lighting capacitively off of my Kacher/Tesla Coil. 
Yes,  Gyula, there is a capacitor or maybe a big resistor inside the bulb, but looks like no actual circuit,  from what I can see through the glass bulb.  Although I can't see much,  because there is nothing else in there.
  Sorry,  but I'm not able to attach the image of the bulb firing up, here.   
  I'll attach it on my next post, below.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 10, 2018, 02:38:41 AM
      Hi again: No luck uploading the image from my phone.
   Had to use my PC to post this pic below, so here it is.
   The bulb just touching the plastic insulator, on the aluminum heat sink that's behind it.   I don't need to hold the bulb, or connect a ground clip to anywhere on that bulb, and it's quite bright. 
   Once I add the two diodes, I'll do another video.
         
                                                                                      NickZ
.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 10, 2018, 05:13:04 AM
Neat bulb...is it perhaps the way the outer case surrounds the LED's that causes such good running ?
Oh, I did something related to your memory of the 100 LED's Nick, that was the Pigeon Loft series. It used a switched off wall adapter and several coils etc a little like Dr. Stiffler's PSEC. It also used an Earth Ground via a wire running outside through a room window to a stake. There were 18 LED's on that, not quite as good as whomever did the other, but was a fun set of experiments and may be worth a revisit.

Have just uploaded a vid of the Colpitts now soldered.....it still works with the missing cap. Did have to add a couple of turns though to the L1 to get it down from 20Mhz to 13.6Mhz.
The vid also shows my build of Lidmotor's crystal oscillator circuit. Only had a 27MHz and a 33MHz. The vid shows the 27MHz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me4b5XJfKrQ
(2min 36sec)

Here's a pic of the Pigeon Loft
And the vid from 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_0EufPJwJ0

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 10, 2018, 06:53:51 PM
   Well, Slider,
   Concerning the Pigeon Loft,  it was getting through there "somehow".  Now you know that it can be called stray capacitive AC. 
Turn off the breakers... watch what happens. That's why I showed it lighting those three leds, on my video, with no input. But, there is an input, isn't there?    So, guys don't get fooled, who know how many leds will light on stray AC. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 11, 2018, 12:13:56 AM
Hi Nick,

It is good you found that LED lamps with reflective surface are also able to give light by capacitive coupling too, this shows that surface mount LEDs with metal (Alu or copper) back plate may not be neccessarily needed.
This is certainly a step forward and it remains to be tested which of the two types: the SMD LEDs with Alu plate only 0.3 - 0.5 mm behind the LEDs or the reflective surface around the LEDs needs higher RF energy or they can perform more or less equally well with RF excitation.
I found 12 V DC spotlight LEDs with very similarly looking reflective surface like your lamp has, see this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362128562522 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/362128562522)    and such spot lights exists with SMD type LEDs too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282232157780 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/282232157780)    and also for AC 110 V of course: https://www.ebay.com/itm/201750169799 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/201750169799)   

Normally, such spot lamps you show with those LED types are probably rated for 2-3 W power consumption. Assigning 25 mA for a LED out of any of the 24, with 3.3 V forward voltage the power involved calculates to around 2 W. Obviously there are higher power spot lamps, mainly with SMD LED types though. You can check AC current for your lamp if you wish.

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 11, 2018, 12:26:05 AM
Hi Slider,

Thanks for the video on the oscillators.  Would like to notice these:
--The ferrite cored oscillator coil is surely mutually coupled to the big air core coil  I think, a higher distance should be insured so that no any coupling could happen between them, except for the single wire connection.

--The air core coil should have a self resonant frequency the oscillator has: i.e. you need to sweep the oscillator frequency to find it and this should happen at around the 13.5 MHz or thereabouts. (if the Doc's test is to be explored, that is.)  I do not know whether you tuned the oscillator frequency to the self resonance frequency of the air core coil. 
I know you are aware of this but the close placement of the two coils may mutually influence each other and eventually the air core coil should not receive energy by mutual coupling to the oscillator coil.

--Regarding the crystal oscillator, the 27 MHz frequency is not recommended by the Doc, I think he mentioned this in one of his videos.

But this oscillator is a good learning tool, here is why. Such crystal oscillators give out square waves or distorted sine waves, (you may have checked directly the output waveform)  and I think this explains why the probe LED (AV plug) attached to the pick-up coil next to the big air coil (which partially has the ferrite rod) remains lit when you move out the ferrite from the coil.
It remains lit because the crystal oscillator provides a signal surely rich in harmonics and some of such harmonically related components are able to light dimly the LED.
It is also possible that the pick-up coil itself also resonates from a component and feeds the single LED AV plug.

In an extreme case, even the other pick-up coil you call as the sniffer coil and use for the scope may be in resonance somewhere, tuned by the 15 pF input capacitance of the probe.

One more thing: you find a 9 MHz resonance somehow (with one position of the ferrite rod) while the coils are driven by 27 Mhz and the harmonics. One thing is sure: out of the 3 coils (the sniffer, or the ferrite rod tuned or the pick-up coil driving the AV plug) has a resonance at 9 MHz: thus a subharmonic (one third of 27 MHz) is amplified by resonance. And due to the mutually close positions of the 3 coils, when you move the ferrite rod, you willy-nilly tune all the 3 coils I think due to the EM coupling between them (all the 3 coils are placed parallel wrt each other lengthwise).

Hope this helps.  8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 11, 2018, 07:16:14 AM
Nick - Yep, nowadays I know about AC coupling, but the idea in the vid was to show that no DC voltage was coming through the wall adapter. Simply had no idea to differentiate the 2 sources for knowledgeable folks. It looks odd now I can quite agree.

Gyula - Many thanks again for the comprehensive breakdown !
Willy-nilly is something i'm learning to avoid lol, though it is present in many of my videos.
The 27MHz crystal is the only working one here. But that thing is suspect. Direct connections to it with the scope and no coils around still shows the 9MHz.
Yes, it's a distorted sine  :)
The 33MHz has a big dent in the top. It was tried and the input LED comes on without blowing, but there's no signal output. I'd imagine the crystal itself is in tiny pieces, but the supporting circuitry is still ok.
The sniffer coil is just a copy of something seen on someone elses video years ago. It does work well for giving the correct frequency. The wave shape can be somewhat distorted and of course, the amplitude increases with proximity toward the source. The person in the video called it a sniffer, so sniffer it got named. 
Good point about individually tuning the coils...which will be done.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 11, 2018, 12:38:12 PM
Nick - Yep, nowadays I know about AC coupling, but the idea in the vid was to show that no DC voltage was coming through the wall adapter. Simply had no idea to differentiate the 2 sources for knowledgeable folks. It looks odd now I can quite agree.

Gyula - Many thanks again for the comprehensive breakdown !
Willy-nilly is something i'm learning to avoid lol, though it is present in many of my videos.
The 27MHz crystal is the only working one here. But that thing is suspect. Direct connections to it with the scope and no coils around still shows the 9MHz.
Yes, it's a distorted sine  :)
The 33MHz has a big dent in the top. It was tried and the input LED comes on without blowing, but there's no signal output. I'd imagine the crystal itself is in tiny pieces, but the supporting circuitry is still ok.
The sniffer coil is just a copy of something seen on someone elses video years ago. It does work well for giving the correct frequency. The wave shape can be somewhat distorted and of course, the amplitude increases with proximity toward the source. The person in the video called it a sniffer, so sniffer it got named. 
Good point about individually tuning the coils...which will be done.
Some crystals are low power for battery applications like in 32678khz series you don't drive them the same way as brute force. The 27khz isn't it a 1/3 over tone for 9mhz if you want 27mhz you might need a tank coil (in some cases) ?

How I did it if you use a CD4093  Scmitt trigger (most of them will run at 15mhz easy 10 -12 will do it) , normally the gate output goes through a 2k2 to the 1Meg across the crystal back into the gate input as per normal with tuning caps to 0 volts to trim, if that doesn't work properly yo need to get rid of some of the power just use 2 red leds 1.2v type back to
back in parallel with a 0.1 cap in one of the leads to 0 volts that always works for me.
AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 11, 2018, 06:41:56 PM
Hi Slider,

The sniffer coil designation is okay with me, as I know it is used in the jargon to refer to probing, detecting EM field and pick it up.

I agree with AlienGray on the possible 3rd overtone operation, the internal crystal is able to oscillate at 9 MHz too and the output pin may need an LC tank tuned to 27 MHz. The tank should be connected between its output pin and its positive supply pin (or, albeit unlikely, between the output pin and the negative supply pin).

The best would be if you could connect first say a 1 kOhm resistor between the output pin and the positive supply. If it is an open collector, then you might see a nicer sine wave across the resistor,  probably still at 9 MHZ, riding on a certain DC level, the scope would show that. And if you see improvement in the wave shape and it remains at 9MHz, then a 27 MHz LC tank would help to suppress the 9 MHz and enhance the 27 MHz output.

A tank circuit for 27 MHz involves less than 1 uH coil (0.74 uH) if the parallel capacitor is say 47 pF (consider scope probe self capacitance is around 15 pF already when checking the tank waveform).  If there is a label printed on top of the oscillator body and it includes type number of manufacturer then it may be worth to do a google search on it.

Notice on crystal oscillators: if you or someone else have motherboards from old personal computers or laptops put aside or just collecting dust in a junk box, they usually have some onboard crystals and/or crystal oscillators that might be close to 13.5 or could be divided down. Just by pure luck, that is...

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 11, 2018, 06:52:19 PM
27 MHz is of course quite close to the ten-meter amateur radio band (28 MHz - 29.7 MHz) and also is straddled by the CB radio band (26.9650 MHz to 27.4050 MHz).
Experimenters in the USA especially should beware of putting too much power into their little radio transmitters. You just might get a visit from the FCC ! (I can attest that those folks are serious about what they do.) SO if you see an unmarked white van with a few antennas on the roof cruising your neighborhood...

 :P
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 11, 2018, 11:04:43 PM
   What about ordering the right crystal 13.4MHz, or as close to it as possible.
   I agree with TK that you might be tuning into Radio Moscow, instead, @27MHz. Doc said that is not the right frequency...  Or not?

   I think that getting the same led bulbs, is critical. Otherwise zilch, on AC bulbs, unless you use the same type, like the Doc is showing. Makeshift don't cut it, here. Got to have the metal backing,  or low voltage (24v) input apacitance will not light the AC bulbs. Nor it looks like, most any other led boards, without adding a ground line in there. But, the Doc's circuit needs no ground line, nor having to touch the bulbs, for them to light up.   There lies the difference.
  Gyula, I think that this type of tests are very very critically frequency dependent, to see any positive OU results. Otherwise capacitance is just another way to light some LEDs.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 12:41:53 AM
Hi Nick,
In my reply  above (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522369/#msg522369)  I also clearly noticed that Dr Stiffler said a no for the 27 MHz frequency.

I think that he very likely uses the 13.4-13.6 MHz range when he retunes his signal generator because the self resonance frequency of his air coil changes whenever the capacitive load on it also changes by any reason like due to the LEDs or when he uses an additional diode etc. 

I do not think that this narrow frequency range is strictly a must to observe because the CREE LED board needs such specific frequency where it behaves like he shows and it would not give as much brightness at say 11.9 MHz (random example) frequency. 

If someone has a signal generator i.e. a stabil frequency source, with the 20-25 Vpp output level, then a frequency sweep could be done on a similar LED board like the SMD CREE within say the 12-15 MHz range and then gradually widening the test range to see how the LEDs brightness behaves.  I do not rule out that his LED board may not work as good as it is seen in that narrow range when the frequency is changed to other frequencies that are say 1-2 MHz below or above that, of course. 
One could speculate that the CREE board has a specific size, arrangement that give a strange excitation for the LEDs only in that narrow range but I would be surprised if that would be the case. 

Notice that to do such frequency sweeps, one needs to have a variable inductance air core coil, known as a roller inductor so that the self resonant frequency of the coil could be matched to the changing generator frequency. See such roller inductor randomly chosen here for instance: http://www.freewebs.com/antreas555/MIKRO%20ROLLER%201.JPG (http://www.freewebs.com/antreas555/MIKRO%20ROLLER%201.JPG) 

An alternative solution to substitute this relatively expensive roller coil is to make several taps on a single layer solenoid coil of the needed size and place the connections always as the frequency dictates it.
 
I do believe though that his chosen narrow frequency range covers the 13.56 MHz industrial (also very narrow) band where one can use a limited power transmitter without license, quasi all over the world, this can surely be one explanation.   ;) This may even explain the no for the 27 MHz frequency too...  no need for causing unwanted interference.
So crystals can be purchased for 13.56 MHz, that is what I mainly mean here.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 05:05:59 AM
   Gyula:
   You are full of great ideas and information. And it may all add up.
   The industrial band, so no guys in white trucks... these little oscillator probably wouldn't reach out the door.

   I've just pulled out a couple of those types of crystal oscillators from old crt monitor, or Tv. The value is not readable.   Can they be tested, or are most of the ones that come on Tvs  13.5MHz, or so? They get rusted easily, and values can't be read.
    I think that we need to pin down the exact type and model of led bulb, at least that it has to have that metal backing.
    Looking on the internet for Cree 13w led bulbs for home use, gives me no results. There are some 13w ones for cars headlight or running light. Doc said they were 60w equivalent, I believe.  I find no such bulbs. There are 40, 60, 100w equivalent, but, no 13w leds that are 60w equivalent. So, I don't know which bulb he uses. But, I think that the main thing is, that it needs to have the metal backing, or it may not have the capacitive gain in output, to make up for all the losses.
And therefore, low efficiency, as far as seeing anything like OU.
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 06:03:18 AM
Some fun replies :)
The 27MHz is only because I don't have others.
There is a PC card *somewhere* that has a bunch of the 4 legged on it, I just can't find it. It's circa 1993 and was kept specifically for those crystals. Happens all the time, throw stuff anywhere and it can be found, put something safe and it disappears !!!
There are many laptop and Pentium III/4 boards though and i'll look on those. Just recently I threw out loads of PII's, for no other reason than thinking I had enough crap around here  :-\
   
Will try the tank idea, it makes sense.

A very kind subscriber on Youtube has sent funds to buy an AD9850 that runs at up to 50MHz. Am also going to order a 1602 screen and perhaps other items to complete it. It means that the frequencies above, below and exacting to 13.6Mhz can be tried !
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 06:22:08 AM
   Sweet!!! I hope that you get it soon.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 06:35:44 AM
:) me too !

Just had a look at the crystal and it's a COMCLOK CT31AH
Am not finding info on it, but some quick tests with grounding and Vcc'ing have shown that the in series LED on Vcc brightens when an L3 is connected from the output to it. A 0.1uF cap, similarly connected as a tank, seems to make the scope read either 9MHz or 15MHz, flickering between the two. Am sure the loading is the thing because of the noted changes of waveform too.
Will try the 1K etc ideas of Gyula's from the previous page.
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 06:59:33 AM
:) me too !

Just had a look at the crystal and it's a COMCLOK CT31AH
Am not finding info on it, but some quick tests with grounding and Vcc'ing have shown that the in series LED on Vcc brightens when an L3 is connected from the output to it. A 0.1uF cap, similarly connected as a tank, seems to make the scope read either 9MHz or 15MHz, flickering between the two. Am sure the loading is the thing because of the noted changes of waveform too.
Will try the 1K etc ideas of Gyula's from the previous page.
   
   Slider:
  Your mentioned signal generator has an output of 1v p_p.  That may not be enough juice to capacitively fire the Leds. 
   So, what are you thinking of doing to obtain a 20 plus volt, 13.4MHz signal? 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 07:31:16 AM
Good question.
This DDS buffer amplifier is one route:
http://www.pongrance.com/dds-buffer.html
Changing some values will allow higher throughput.

Have just tried bunches of coils and bunches of caps on the 'illegal' 27MHz crystal.
The waveshape certainly changes, sometimes more rounded, sometimes better wireless 'range', but it is resolute in it's lack of wish to change from 9MHz.
47pF, 56pF, 30pF, 10pF, 0.1uF. Coils have been from a few aircore turns of 20AWG, to axial inductors. All do change the characteristics and waveshape, but nothing makes it budge in frequency. Even tried connecting from the output to Gnd and to Vcc with all the configurations and still no change. Just once or twice it would seem to flicker at 15MHz and then drop back to 9MHz again. That could easily have been the L3 coil interfering, which is connected to the output.
Does the output need a cap in series to decouple, 0.1uF, when the LC is in place ?

Btw, comical note.
I was just trying to verify if the AD9851 is really an upgrade to the AD9850 and saw this one advertised:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DDS-Signal-Generator-Module-AD9851-2-Sine-Wave-2-Square-Wave-Replace-AD9850-GT/273146456861
Within the specs, was this gem of a line:
Quote
Clothes Asian size is usually 2 yards smaller than US/EU/UK, please compare carefully before ordering.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2018, 07:33:18 AM
The COMCLOK CT31AH is a 5v tri-state oscillator and comes in a variety of different frequencies. It should have the frequency stamped on it.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g0EAAOxyyjpRurq3/s-l1600.jpg (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g0EAAOxyyjpRurq3/s-l1600.jpg)
One pin is Vcc, one pin is ground, one pin is output, one pin is enable/disable.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 07:40:16 AM
That's it squire, exactly the same one :)

Tri-state, as in
1. Off
2. Thinking about switching on
3. 1/3rd On
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2018, 07:45:56 AM
Another component that might be useful for this kind of thing is the Hitachi 1SS106 diode.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2018, 07:50:00 AM
This info may be useful:
Quote
If Tri-state pin is logic "1", then oscillator is connected to the output pin.  Same happens if Tri-state is left unconnected (there's probably an internal pull-up). 
If Tri-state pin is logic "0", then oscillator is not connected to the output pin, and output is floating.  The fact that it's floating may be useful if you need to switch between several clock sources.  You would enable one of them, and Tri-state the others to prevent contention between multiple outputs.

[/li]
[/list]
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 07:50:40 AM
   But, what you really need is the 13.5MHz crystal. Right?
   I tried to post a link to that 13.5MHz crystal oscillator, from ebay, but was unable to do so.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 07:55:13 AM
Thanks TK, yes the bottom left pin is left disconnected.
I could force it High and see if anything changes, the internal pull-up could perhaps be weak. It's likely 30 years old, I have no new junk stuff.

Yep Nick, all this 27MHz stuff is only cos I personally have no others and I apologise for hogging the thread with it...however, it could be useful learning for correct MHz oscillators.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 08:04:39 AM
   The mentioned buffer amplifier only goes to 5v, max.  If so, that's not enough amplitude to do the trick. And light the leds bulb using capacitance. I think.
    There must be a better solution, to obtain 20v to 25v output at 13.5MHz, or so. As the Doc uses. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 08:11:25 AM
Hmm true, I was hoping to drive it at a higher voltage from a cheapo Chinese booster set to 20V. However, it would likely invoke impurities and mess it up.

Have just tried the Enable/Disable and it works as described. It didn't change the frequency at all though. I was hoping that cycling the pin might kick-start something.
Will look for more crystals in the morning.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 08:25:31 AM
   I would suppose that the idea with using the SG is to find the resonant frequency sweet spot, but, later do away with the SG.
   Therefore, a proper circuit that generates the right voltages 20v, and correct 13.5MHz frequency need to replace the SG.   What would that circuit need to look like??? And, the frequency should not be just a stable 13MHz, either. As it needs to be a controllable frequency, to adjust for different lodes, and changing ambient, like varying day or night conditions, etz...
    That is my question. What would that particular circuit have to look like? 
    The Docs not there yet, either. But, I think that he's headed that way, sooner or later.
Title: New 110v bulb that works
Post by: Lidmotor on June 12, 2018, 08:32:40 AM
I found a110v bulb that works pretty good----at least working off a SEC 18.  It was too late in the day to try it on my 13MHz crystal oscillator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNggjXqgrc0

Lidmotor
Title: Re: New 110v bulb that works
Post by: AlienGrey on June 12, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
I found a110v bulb that works pretty good----at least working off a SEC 18.  It was too late in the day to try it on my 13MHz crystal oscillator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNggjXqgrc0

Lidmotor
Some 13.3mhz xtals can be found in old Sony TV remote headphones if any one is interested !

Lidmore any chance of a photo of setup re bulb. Chears
PS forget it as your video is now available,    no problem  :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 02:18:52 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

Very good, congratulations and I also think you replicated the effect i.e. exciting p-n junctions of SMD LEDs by strong RF field via capacitive coupling.
Suddenly I cannot recall what frequency a SEC 18 board is working at? Is it within the 13-14 MHz frequency range? With a loosely coupled scope probe placed nearby the air coil may pick up enough juice to display the waveform hence the frequency.

A suggestion if you have not tried: just connect the center of the two diodes with a piece of wire directly to the negative supply rail of the oscillator instead of to the surface of the metal block (remove that block). The Doc showed this connection in his video a month ago with a SEC, video time 1.38 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIcaDtSUT3I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIcaDtSUT3I)

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Another component that might be useful for this kind of thing is the Hitachi 1SS106 diode.
Hi TK,
Fine, thanks.    (The only drawback though is it has only 10 V reverse voltage ratings.)
The Ge diode types like OA161 or OA182 would perform also well here.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 02:33:59 PM
Hi Slider,

I found a data sheet https://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/5616418939580198828 (https://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/5616418939580198828) for your oscillator.
So no need to attach a tank circuit directly between the output pin and positive rail because the output is a normal TTL output. (shorting by coil wire the output to either the + or - pins may damage the internal output circuit, use capacitor in series with the output pin to remove DC level which is about half of the 5V supply voltage)

EDIT: I found this test circuit for your oscillator: https://web.archive.org/web/20061016045228/http://www.calcrystal.com/pdf/CT.pdf (https://web.archive.org/web/20061016045228/http://www.calcrystal.com/pdf/CT.pdf)   

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 02:38:47 PM
Lidmotor - Excellent demo !
If the rated wattage on that bulb is about 4W then it would seem that your setup trounces it.
Even 18V @ 50mA is only 0.9W
By the sounds of it there is far more light output than would be expected for < 1W at that voltage. The Dollar Tree bulbs have the separate circuitboard and it would be neat to know if they work anywhere near that well on a real SEC-18.
 
Mildly related is that yesterday I replaced the 3rd brake light on our car. The old board had blown, so in went 4x 5mm LED's in series, with a 100ohm resistor. The amount of rubbish on the original board was unreal. I have no idea why it was packed with diodes resistors and caps, because the much simpler method works completely fine and the LED's are not stressing. I removed the internal dissipating lens thing too and the 4 lights are much clearer for any following motorist.


Gyula - Ah! many thanks, will take a look right now :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 02:45:29 PM
Lidmotor - Excellent demo !
If the rated wattage on that bulb is about 4W then it would seem that your setup trounces it.
Even 18V @ 50mA is only 0.9W
By the sounds of it there is far more light output than would be expected for < 1W at that voltage. The Dollar Tree bulbs have the separate circuitboard and it would be neat to know if they work anywhere near that well on a real SEC-18.
 ...
I agree and I hope Lidmotor purchased at least two such LED lamps...   8)   and in this case the second one could be run directly from the AC mains and brightnesses could be compared and bring to similar level by the DC input to the oscillator.  And of course the AC input to the second bulb could also be measured. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 03:34:50 PM
Aye, true enough...a lumen meter isn't needed for such a test, the eyes can do a good job of discernment. If it's close then i'm thinking it could also be useful for Lid's boat trips to Catalina Island....they make for fun vids when various devices have been shown running onboard. We're a bit short on ocean here in Oklahoma to repeat such tests lol


I just tried the test circuit from the above post and it still says 9.02MHz !
It must be a very wonky crystal, or, it could be viewed as a highly exacting and tough 9MHz source.
Quick vid here for you Gyula, 37 seconds, showing the test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHXouxpKkxw

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 03:53:14 PM

   Guys:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-13-52127MHZ-Crystal-Oscillator-Quartz-crystal-13-52127MHZ-Plug-in-crystal-HC-49S/32403283986.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-13-52127MHZ-Crystal-Oscillator-Quartz-crystal-13-52127MHZ-Plug-in-crystal-HC-49S/32403283986.html)

   Possibly this is the type of crystal needed. Or not?
   Gyula:  The crystal circuit that you posted shows that is uses a 5v input.  What is the expected output voltage?   Slider:  Regardless of the circuit's input voltage, the output voltages need to be at least around 20v to 25v. @13MHz, or so. To be in the Doc's ballpark. That's with NO negative rail from the SG connected. Right?
   Also, a neon bulb should be able light near the output bulb. Mine lights about to 3 inches away from the aluminum block using 12v input to my Kacher circuit. But, adding the two diodes, to complete the circuit, does not light the bulb brightly without adding an earth ground. I think that proper operation should be that no ground is needed, and the bulb should light by capacitance, using just the two diode loop. No ground, and no touching the bulb.  If not, then we are not on the right track.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 04:16:30 PM
....
I just tried the test circuit from the above post and it still says 9.02MHz !
It must be a very wonky crystal, or, it could be viewed as a highly exacting and tough 9MHz source.
Quick vid here for you Gyula, 37 seconds, showing the test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHXouxpKkxw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHXouxpKkxw)
Hi Slider,

Thanks for the video. The test shown by the manufacturer I think tries to mimic a TTL load for their oscillator output, to characterize somehow their output waveform rise and fall times, that is all.
There surely is a problem internal to your encased oscillator if the 27 MHz is stamped on it as the photo shows TK found, then the 9 MHz should not dominate at the output, hence you have a 9 MHz oscillator. The wave form your scope shows has far worse rise and fall times, not even comparable to their stated data on those.

Perhaps, just perhaps,  if you wish to make LED tests at 27 MHz, you could make an air core coil for 27 MHz, would look like a Tesla secondary. Its bottom wire would go to the negative rail and the oscillator output would be connected via a series capacitor to a 2 or 3 turn tap from the bottom, the top end would be floating. Like a step up auto transformer. 
Of course this tuning would involve many trials and sweat to arrive at the coil's 27 MHz resonance and the result is also questionable, LED wise at 27 MHz. For an estimate on coil size and turns, online calculator may help in that to bring  sizes within ballpark range. If you need I could figure out something. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 04:23:40 PM
Hi Nick,
The price is too high for those crystals if you have to buy 200 pieces in that offer.  Yes the frequency is good I think.  I also think these offers at ebay are also good and the frequencies are within ballpark (I made a random search):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253056332398 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/253056332398)     or   https://www.ebay.com/itm/362257415906 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/362257415906) 

The designation "oscillator" in the title of the offers is only a marketing method, of course,  you would need to build a 1 transistor circuit to make any of such crystals oscillate at their stemped on frequency.
Gyula
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 04:30:30 PM
Gyula - good idea with the Slayer type of setup. But would such a thing actually switch at that speed, their normal free running characteristics put them at around 2 MHz. Will try it anyway :)

Nick - the 4 pin type is easiest to work with. The 2 pin types like that one are correct, but need a bit of circuitry. Usually 30pF x2 and an op-amp etc. I think that's the draw of these 4 pin types, having the needed hardware built in.

Speaking of which, it's been an interesting foray so far within the old boards here. Do I really want to desolder a 46.6MHz 4 pin from an original Soundblaster 16 ISA card ?  ???
Same thing for the various ones found on arcade boards, such as Streeetfighter II and Golden Tee Golf.   
But, have found a 24MHz and a 30MHz on the boards from a DEC DecMate from 1981. The crystals could be put back in, so I think i'll desolder those. 
No luck yet on the 13.5MHz area though.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 04:46:36 PM
Well, it is not likely you would find the needed xtal, you know Murphy...

What you show on the boards look like oscillators running at 5V I guess.
https://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/nel-c/company/index.html     no info yet on their products
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 05:07:48 PM
Well, it is not likely you would find the needed xtal, you know Murphy...

What you show on the boards look like oscillators running at 5V I guess.
https://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/nel-c/company/index.html (https://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/nel-c/company/index.html)     no info yet on their products
   Slider, can't you just order a few of the right 13.5MHz ones, might take a few days to get them, but you'd have them.   Otherwise it's like batting in the dark.   You need to tune your coil (or coils), as well. Like Gyula has mentioned. Other wise the frequency will be more related to the coils that you use, instead what the oscillator frequency provides. Which brings me, again,  to just what coils, and frequencies we need to use.
   I see that a well tuned system needs no ferrite to tune with, adding ferrite to the core, just messes up a properly tuned circuit loop. As does adding any type of ground line. Adding a ground line should Kill the resonance, if it's all well, and in tune.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 05:21:16 PM
Gyula - good idea with the Slayer type of setup. But would such a thing actually switch at that speed, their normal free running characteristics put them at around 2 MHz. Will try it anyway :)
...
Well,  see this sketch how I thought first to drive a coil (tuned to 27 MHz self resonant frequency) via a tap with your 9 MHz oscillator.  But now that you mention the Slayer oscillator, then indeed simpler to make a separate primary coil of 1 to 2 turns and connect it to the oscillator output via a capacitor.  I numbered as 1 and 2 where the primary coil could be connected and in this case the bottom of the secondary coil could be left either floating or tied to the negative rail. 
This way the secondary could be driven by magnetic coupling to the primary coil and you would need to achieve 27 MHz resonance in the secondary (i.e. the 3rd harmonic of the 9 MHz). 
This kind of feeding the secondary (i.e. by coupling) does not involve switching, a normal Faraday induction is involved like in transformers so the bad shape of the waveform is no problem in this case.

But Nick questions this laborious task which certainly differs in frequency from 13.5 MHz so it is up to you of course.  8)

Gyula
Title: Operating in 13 MHz realm
Post by: Lidmotor on June 12, 2018, 07:17:29 PM
  The focus seems to be on the 13MHz frequency now and Doc's SEC exciters dance in that realm.  There are other frequency 'spikes' that work but perhaps not as well???  It is all about resonance.  Kinda like good songs but different songs.   
   All of us are pursuing this in slightly different ways but along the way we are finding new things.  It's great.  I have really missed working on these group projects. 
   That said--- these new leds are perhaps where the magic is.  The best way to drive them is where the adventure become really fun.
 
--- Lidmotor
Title: Re: Operating in 13 MHz realm
Post by: NickZ on June 12, 2018, 07:48:06 PM
  The focus seems to be on the 13MHz frequency now and Doc's SEC exciters dance in that realm.  There are other frequency 'spikes' that work but perhaps not as well???  It is all about resonance.  Kinda like good songs but different songs.   
   All of us are pursuing this in slightly different ways but along the way we are finding new things.  It's great.  I have really missed working on these group projects. 
   That said--- these new leds are perhaps where the magic is.  The best way to drive them is where the adventure become really fun.
 
--- Lidmotor
    Agreed.  Looks like you are getting somewhere with that bulb. Your capacitive effects are much better than before.
As now the bulb dies when touching it. However, I don't think that you need to add the aluminum block, as that is a grounding source, which I believe needs to be avoided, in this case. The bulb need to light without aluminum blocks, grounds, or touching it, using only 20v output to it, or so. Right?   I think that the main thing is the the bulbs have some sorts of metal backing, that is very close to the leds.
Not like my last led bulb with the 24leds, and reflector. The reflector is too far away from all the leds themselves to provide the best capacitive effects. Your last corn cob bulb also has some of the led far from the aluminum back plate.
The best thing is for the leds to be right next to the metal backing plate (heatsink).
   I'm glad to be working with you guys on this, as well.
   I tried to solder the diodes on to my reflector spot light bulb, but the solder won't stick to it.   I think that is may also be important to use the same connectors that he uses, as they are also within the EM field.

The coils possibly also need to be properly turned to 13MHz for best interaction.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 08:09:00 PM
Hi Rusty,
I also think the Alu block can be left out of the game, I mention this here
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522438/#msg522438 

Wish you much fun.
Gyula
Title: Leds mounted on an aluminum heat sink
Post by: Lidmotor on June 12, 2018, 08:14:53 PM
Nick---This new bulb I found has a thin AL ring with fingers that the leds are all mounted on.  It is actually a flat plate rolled up.  I tried driving this array several ways off the SEC 18.  It worked just fine the old way with just an AV plug stuck on the input wire but I wanted to try the Doc's new way.  I couldn't get it to light up driving off the heat sink unless I used the Al block or basically shorted the AV plug back to the (-) SEC input. It was kinda like Doc showed in that 1st video a week or so ago.  That was before he started playing around with just the signal generator to drive his board. 
   I don't know where this project is going but I hope to get something to 'field test' for my next sailboat trip to Catalina Island later on this summer.  The island is 30 miles away from anything that might be called 'external input' and this stuff is great fun to play around with while at sea.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 08:34:21 PM
I'm delighted about the boating thoughts, hoped you would go that route. The thing being that we all need a drive to do something like this, a reason that's practical and the boat is ideal. Well, unless you have a really long extension cord hanging out of the back of it.

I agree Nick, it's likely best to just order the 13.5MHz crystal. The thing being though that I have boxes and boxes of old electronics parts boards and felt sure that there would be tons of these things on everything. Sure enough there are the 2 pin types, hundreds of them, but not the 4 pin type.

The AD9850 will be here in 2 days !
The rotary encoder and screen will be longer but older projects might get scavenged for those in the meantime.


I tried the MX045 46.61512MHz crystal from the Soundblaster 16 card because the DEC crystals wouldn't come out and...whaddya know...it apparently runs at 1/3rd the speed that it should do !


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 12, 2018, 09:18:08 PM
Those 4-pin things aren't "crystals" although they do contain a crystal. There is a lot more stuff in there.
I happen to have a handful of 1MHz 4pin oscillators so I sacrificed one for you.
The crystal itself didn't survive the decapping, but I would have removed it anyhow to show the chip underneath it.

You cannot simply drop one of these things into a crystal oscillator circuit and expect it to work! Or vice versa.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 12, 2018, 09:18:14 PM
TK - thanks for that decapping. Sure enough, there's tons of stuff in there.
I had no idea of the spacings or sizes of such microsized componentry.


Got it !
The reason for the 1/3rd speed running is because of the LED in series on the Vcc !
The drop across it is enough to put the crystals into that mode.
By accident, I bypassed the LED while setting up a Slayer type tower and the scope now reads 27MHz.
Will try the 46MHz, but fully expect that to show the correct frequency now too.

Or another way of thinking about this, would be if you have a 40MHz crystal, an LED in series with a USB supply would produce 13.333MHz


Quick short vid of the discovery, wasn't sure what had happened until the camera shows the breadboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPVfJ1-pXoE
(1min 16sec)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 12, 2018, 11:00:53 PM
Hej Slider,
Data sheet I drew your attention includes the 5V  within 10% like a TTL circuit.

IT is good you found this out.
Gyula
Title: Back to the Slayer Exciter
Post by: Lidmotor on June 13, 2018, 01:00:16 AM
I tried that new 110v led bulb out is different ways and ended up driving it with a super simple bare bone Slayer Exciter and one 3.7v battery.  The led board did not light up at all using that 13.5 MHz 4 pin oscillator I have.  Sooooo ---I just kinda abandoned really replicating the Doc's signal generator experiments.  With what I have to work with and the results I have seen so far I don't see how he did what he did.  Driving that Cree board to the brightness he showed, with just a 13 MHz signal, is a puzzle.   
  Here is what I ended up with today which might end up being a nice light for my boat.  Long live the good ole Slayer Exciter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e54vSf0PcDg

---Lidmotor
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 13, 2018, 02:09:19 AM
It is a good use and good video.
Especially the micro 'tower' which lends itself readily to boxing up and not knowing there is a Slayer circuit inside.
Hopefully you can carry on with the project though, if things take a turn :)


One of which might be this....
Have found a circuit here:
http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2012/08/simple-oscillator-as-crystal-tester/
A very simple and effective circuit for driving practically any 2 pin crystal !!!
It works wonderfully.
Have tested loads of them and all work, with a clean wave output at the correct frequencies.

Video of it running and a crystal swap is shown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2omcrkrrhoc
(2 mins 14 secs)

Now we just have to find a similarly simple way to get the signal to 20V  :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 13, 2018, 03:02:18 AM
Run the output of the tester circuit through a Schmitt trigger inverter stage or two to square it up, then use the output from that to drive a mosfet driver driving a mosfet in a lowside switch configuration, switching your 20v through your load. Keep your circuit tight and solid (respect RF design principles). 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 13, 2018, 05:17:24 AM
Thanks TK and that's where I got confused. A lot of mention was made of needing a Sine wave, so the only thing I could think of was to use a MOSFET and then perhaps add another slight tank to smooth out the sharpness of the squarewave.
Will take the MOSFET route in any case, it's the only one to readily produce the 20V :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 13, 2018, 02:38:27 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

Good result with the exciter, thanks for the video. Would like to ask whether a puffer capacitor across the LED at the output of the two AV plug diodes does not help increase brightness a little?  (Albeit it may also increase input DC power a little, too.)

You wrote:     "With what I have to work with and the results I have seen so far I don't see how he did what he did.  Driving that Cree board to the brightness he showed, with just a 13 MHz signal, is a puzzle."

No offense intended but you have not replicated the Doc's signal generator experiments yet. The answer is that your 13.5 MHz 4 pin oscillator has much less output amplitude than that of the Doc's signal generator, this is what is missing for you. The Doc starts with the 25Vpp or so amplitude and his air core coil enhances it at resonance up to at least the 70-90 Vpp or higher amplitude ranges and this is what excites capacitively the p-n junctions of the LEDs.

I do think that the exciter you just showed in the video may easily have the 70-90 Vpp or so at the top of the secondary coil, converted from the 3.7V battery (and the associated input current) by resonance and that is what feeds the LEDs via the AV plug.

The SEC 18 you used the other day should have similarly high RF amplitude across its coil and that is what you fed capacitively to the Alu plates of the LEDs and got good brightness too. Perhaps you could test this latter feeding method with the Slayer exciter too if you have not done so with that yet.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 13, 2018, 03:04:23 PM
Thanks TK and that's where I got confused. A lot of mention was made of needing a Sine wave, so the only thing I could think of was to use a MOSFET and then perhaps add another slight tank to smooth out the sharpness of the squarewave.
Will take the MOSFET route in any case, it's the only one to readily produce the 20V :)
Hi Slider,
Well, the Doc surely has his reasons to choose sine wave from the starting signal source for such test setups. 

It is possible that if you had a 25 Vpp square wave at say 13.5 MHz, then the air core coil driven with a single wire and tuned correctly to this frequency would also amplify that to the 70-90 Vpp amplitude which would already be a sine wave rather than square wave due to the resonance but this needs to be tested whether it gives similar result then a sinewave from the start. 

When I gave links to oscillator circuits, those papers included a 1 W and a 10 W linear power amplifier with MOSFETs, see this post (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522175/#msg522175) of mine.  Both amplifiers are preceeded by a single transistor preamplifier and the latter could be driven from a dedicated 13.5 MHz crystal oscillator  or even from your already built LC oscillator. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 13, 2018, 06:28:16 PM
Gyula - have just had a look at those schems again and will study them more.
There is a possibly simplified method for the sinewave and, as luck would have it, the thinking was verified this morning in a roundabout way.
Julian Illett uploaded a video of building a 1kHz sinewave circuit kit. Onboard, was a filament bulb !
The Bedini SSG used to make use of an 'ear of wheat' bulb and yesterday I found a 1970's era front panel for some kind of CB gear, with half a dozen of those bulbs on it. Looks like they were pre-LED used for the same illuminations.
The idea now being, to get the oscillator signal amplified by any means and then have the bulb in series with a likely MOSFET at the output.
That raises questions about interference, but it's worthwhile to experiment with due to the method.
 
It looks like i'll continue on with the 2 pin oscillator circuit until the AD9850 arrives....other signal sources are either spendy to replace or not locked in as well as the crystals. I can blow this up and it would take about 20 minutes to make another.

Oh, and, with a 4.5MHz crystal and an L3 on the output, if I move a hand over the coil the signal jumps to 13.3MHz !
It suddenly just flips upward to 3x what it should be. A very handy flip to a possibly more usable frequency.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 13, 2018, 08:10:16 PM
   There are plenty of 13MHz simple oscillator circuits on the internet. You might find some that would suit your needs. I pull one out of a TV motherboard, might be the right frequency.  Not sure about that yet,  but it looks the same as the ones pictured on the internet.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 13, 2018, 09:23:38 PM
...
Oh, and, with a 4.5MHz crystal and an L3 on the output, if I move a hand over the coil the signal jumps to 13.3MHz !
It suddenly just flips upward to 3x what it should be. A very handy flip to a possibly more usable frequency.
Hi Slider,

Crystals in general are willing to oscillate at their odd harmonic numbers so your 4.5 MHz crystal will do so at 3 x 4.5 = 13.5 MHz.

[There are so called overtone crystals manufactured specifically for oscillating at an overtone mode (at an odd harmonic) of a base frequency and one need to insure a tuned circuit (in most cases) to force this oscillation mode to happen. ]

See this circuit from the same link you already gave:
http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2012/08/overtone-crystal-oscillator/  just remove the collector resistor and put an LC circuit there instead. Use not higher than 1 uH coil, it needs roughly a 140 pF tuning capacitor.

If you attempt to drive the gate of a MOSFET from the collector via a coupling cap, then the input CGS (being in the order of some nF) of the MOSFET will detune the tank significantly unless you compensate for this input cap properly by a matching network, or simply use a buffer amplifier to separate the collector from the gate.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 13, 2018, 09:30:10 PM
Hi Nick,
Is the frequency of the crystal you pulled out from the TV  written on the metal case? 
For NTSC colour tv types usually 3.58 MHz, for PAL systems 4.43 MHz is used but you may find crystals for different frequencies of course if you pull out the ones used for clocking the microprocessor.

Gyula
Title: 13.5 MHz sinewave
Post by: Lidmotor on June 14, 2018, 01:27:34 AM
I was able to reproduce the signal that Dr. Stiffler used but not at the needed higher voltage  I just used that 13MHz crystal oscillator that I have.  I got it to light up a few leds but it will not light up a large array.  The voltage was not enough.  Perhaps there is a way to amplify this signal using a secondary circuit.  It seems to me all you would have to do is run this signal through a cap into the base of a transistor (like a 2N3055), apply the other needed components, and Bob's your uncle.  We only need 24volts and less than 200mA.
  Here is the video of the messy setup:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pMk19OzF6A

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 14, 2018, 01:56:00 AM
I thought that too and have only done preliminary testing, but am unsure if wires have to be kept really short and etc.
Every MOSFET here that i'm looking up is too slow, it seems.
Mention has been made of the IRF510, which unfortunately I don't have. Have got 610, 640 and others and they appear to come in as a total function time of around 90ns at best.
13.6MHz requires 70ns. Again, am unsure if i'm looking at those times correctly...it would be easier if they'd put the whole switching time, rather than the rise and fall times.
Maybe a transistor is a better choice, most run at a far higher speed than MOSFETs.
Plus it would be a 1 stage solution, rather than using a transistor first, to feed the MOSFET at its Gate voltage.
Can only plug stuff in and see.
Your scope that's now running may help to verify the transistor idea too.
Title: Transistor solution
Post by: Lidmotor on June 14, 2018, 03:18:49 AM
Slider--- I thought about just trying an MPSA06 or even a 2N2222 at 12v and see what happens. Just keep the current down under 100 Ma and see what happens.  Glue a penny on top like you have suggested on the Slayer exciters.  The worst that can happen is blue smoke and a bad smell for awhile. If the temp isn't too bad gradually up voltage to 20v.  You can double up the transistor also. 

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 14, 2018, 06:19:57 AM
Hi all, I was inspired by lidmotor to make a version of his latest slayer exciter light.
Thanks for sharing lidmotor.

Used ferrite tube core, one layer 30awg. magnet wire over paper tube, which is over the core.
Not sure of primary turns, made it previously, 24awg. magnet iwre, at least 12 turns, not wound tight.
Using 5 volt usb power supply.
pn424r PNP high voltage transistor, same size as 2n2222.
High speed, higher amp diode off base of transistor.
Two 1n4148 diodes off one end of 30awg. wire, into led bulb, any other diodes, meaning larger, cuased higher amp draw and less light output.
100 Kohm base resistor.
Feit ribbon led bulb, 3.6 watt, 40 watt equivalent, warm white, with circuitry removed.
Picture is blooming a bit, though it is fairly bright for 1/2 watt input, burns into eyes if you look at it, which i don't suggest.

5.06 volts, 110 milliamp input or .55 watts.
The transistor is only warm, not hot.
Will try and tweak for more brightness and efficiency.
peace love light :)
Title: Replication
Post by: Lidmotor on June 14, 2018, 08:38:36 AM
Great news Skywatcher!  I was hoping someone else would try a Slayer Exciter on one of these new led bulbs.  It seems that you came to the same conclusion as I did about it.  It is a big bang for the buck light.  That is a lot of light for 1/2 a watt.  The simplicity of a Slayer Exciter is hard to beat.
  What I really like about these group projects is that we usually find out something new along the way.  People learn from each other, improve a design, and share it.   
   Tell us more about that bulb.  Is the circuit board separate?  Is the bulb easy to take apart? Where did you get it?  Cost?
 
  Many Thanks.   ---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 14, 2018, 09:30:14 AM
Hi Dr Stiffler has a couple more vids listed, shame about the sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX56Ocniz_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KMU6ZM_vKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kQZboyAU1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_ynVaUGHM

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 14, 2018, 12:10:49 PM
Hi all, I was inspired by lidmotor to make a version of his latest slayer exciter light.
Thanks for sharing lidmotor.

Used ferrite tube core, one layer 30awg. magnet wire over paper tube, which is over the core.
Not sure of primary turns, made it previously, 24awg. magnet iwre, at least 12 turns, not wound tight.
Using 5 volt usb power supply.
pn424r PNP high voltage transistor, same size as 2n2222.
High speed, higher amp diode off base of transistor.
Two 1n4148 diodes off one end of 30awg. wire, into led bulb, any other diodes, meaning larger, cuased higher amp draw and less light output.
100 Kohm base resistor.
Feit ribbon led bulb, 3.6 watt, 40 watt equivalent, warm white, with circuitry removed.
Picture is blooming a bit, though it is fairly bright for 1/2 watt input, burns into eyes if you look at it, which i don't suggest.

5.06 volts, 110 milliamp input or .55 watts.
The transistor is only warm, not hot.
Will try and tweak for more brightness and efficiency.
peace love light :)
Hi. can you provide schematic of your circuit ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 14, 2018, 04:41:03 PM
   Some interesting comment from Mikrovolt, at energetic forum, a little while ago.

  "yes we got resonance with a signal generator and an AV plug.
 The doctor uses an aluminum two plate capacitor after the SG. ( Signal Gen in series resonance mode )
 
 After that resonance the methods change. (self resonance of the coil)
 Then we need to turn the Signal Generator down because we are tuning
 for AV current peak self resonance of a series and not a voltage peak. (having different phase)
 Some of you have low power output SG that cannot light an led. (need an adjustable output stage)
 Next using a spec analyzer he found the current peak when adding the third coil.
 
 I went on with this experiment following instructions exactly and found psec worked
 with almost no signal at all proving to myself at least that this type of
 current resonance in wireless multi-coil systems found without forced oscillation has merit.
 The oscilloscope conventional approach would be misleading. The setup needs near field to SA.
 The current derived by this type of harmonic series is done first.
 The frequency is dependent on that series. The resonance can vary
 but the optimum tuning seen on the spectrum analyzer has a signature". 
                                                                                     end quote. 
 
   I (NickZ), am having a hard time getting my reflector LED bulb to light properly, as the Doc is showing. Using just a couple of 4148s, and the loop at the end. It seams to need a clip lead (even a short one), on the end of the diodes to light up. Still working on it... But, I know that only indicates that something is not right. Maybe the frequency is off, but I had it lighting up by itself pretty well with just a short wire lead off of the diode ends. A 3 inch piece of wire. Seams to work as an antenna/ground of sorts.
But, without the proper metal backed LED board, exactly the same as the Dos has, this set up may not work, as it needs to work.   
  Anyways, that is what I/we have to work on, getting that proper interaction, first. The right frequency or it's harmonics are needed. But, the only way we are going to know if this is all worth pursuing, or not, is to build it right, like Doc is showing.    Dr. Stiffler will have to progress to eventually NOT needing to use the SG as an input source, otherwise this is just not a practical project for most people to follow up on. 
    Remember: The bulb has to go out when you touch it, and not to get brighter. Or it ain't working...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 14, 2018, 08:48:47 PM
Am going to try a 9W from Lowe's later.
The AD9850 should arrive today and then a lot should hopefully change...well, once i've bolted on the Arduino and screen.
Still need to make something to ramp up the voltage.

uV kindly replied on a vid of mine too. I know he knows his stuff and there are now several people of experience giving help in such ways...all very kind and certainly helping things to progress.


Have just seen the Doc's new video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCBE6eeMyjw
He has SEC 18-x boards available again. Now that is an interesting idea and a good route for his funding. He wishes to replace his current probe that blew up. I hope there is interest, he gains the amount of funds and can buy the replacement.
What was the price of the original boards ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 14, 2018, 08:56:46 PM
Hi all, Hi lidmotor, it is one of those filament style led bulbs from Feit.
Though I can't seem to find the exact version i bought awhile ago, a 2 pack of 40 watt equivalent.
It is printed on the bulb, 3.6 watt input at 450 lumens, this link is similar, https://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-40-Watt-Equivalent-A15-Dimmable-Filament-LED-90-CRI-Clear-Glass-Light-Bulb-Soft-White-2-Pack-BPA1540927CAFIL-2-RP/304112237 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-40-Watt-Equivalent-A15-Dimmable-Filament-LED-90-CRI-Clear-Glass-Light-Bulb-Soft-White-2-Pack-BPA1540927CAFIL-2-RP/304112237)
,though it uses more power.
I would say, most of these filament style will work well, since I think they use a higher voltage without the circuitry.
It's not too difficult to remove the small circuit board from bottom of these bulbs, though i may have used a heat gun to loosen the glue holding base to glass bulb.
Hi erfandl, here is the circuit drawing.
peace love light :)

Edit: just checked the 24awg, magnet wire primary turns, 19 turns, wrapped together tight, though is not tight on top of other coil.
 Going to make a tighter wind primary with double the turns, 40 turns and compare, then can remove turns and compare also.
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 14, 2018, 11:27:43 PM
Hi SkyWatcher,
Nice results.  Would like to ask if you place a puffer cap across the bulb with the correct polarity to smooth the DC from the AV plug, then how the brightness may change?  Maybe it changes at the expense of input power,  i.e. say  both increases?  Use at least a 160V DC rated electrolytic, say 47 uF. 

You may wish to correct the transistor symbol drawing: the emitter and the collector ought to be flipped.
Thanks,Gyula
EDIT, the emitter and the collector are at good place now, just make the arrow point towards the base as with pnp types  8)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 15, 2018, 03:17:03 AM
Hi gyulasun, had to run out after realzing the arrow was wrong way, hehe, thanks gyula, it's fixed now.
I will test the puffer capacitor tonight.
peace love light

Edit: Hi gyulasun, i placed a 450 volt - 68 uF polarized capacitor across av plug output.
The led bulb went out until the capacitor filled up, then the voltage across bulb (brightness) did not go up or down from 117.8 volts dc output.
Of course, I'm using a different primary now, 40 turns of 24awg. magnet wire and input is only 20 milliamps at 5.14 volts or 103 milliwatts and brightness is still darn good for that input.
Of course, zero heat in the transistor as well.
Title: Exciter Day
Post by: Lidmotor on June 15, 2018, 06:59:16 AM
Thanks Skywatcher for the info and update on that neat Slayer Exciter you made.  Slider I worked most of the day on making a simple voltage booster for my crystal oscillator exciter.  I just connected it from the tunable inductor on the exciter into the base of an MPSA06 NPN via a cap. The bare bones 'amp' was just an led connected to a 3v source and the collector.  The emitter went to the (-).  The crystal oscillator had enough punch to trigger the transistor and light the led.  Nothing fancy but it proved the concept.

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 15, 2018, 08:41:08 AM
Hi all, Hi lidmotor, it is one of those filament style led bulbs from Feit.
Though I can't seem to find the exact version i bought awhile ago, a 2 pack of 40 watt equivalent.
It is printed on the bulb, 3.6 watt input at 450 lumens, this link is similar, https://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-40-Watt-Equivalent-A15-Dimmable-Filament-LED-90-CRI-Clear-Glass-Light-Bulb-Soft-White-2-Pack-BPA1540927CAFIL-2-RP/304112237 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-40-Watt-Equivalent-A15-Dimmable-Filament-LED-90-CRI-Clear-Glass-Light-Bulb-Soft-White-2-Pack-BPA1540927CAFIL-2-RP/304112237)
,though it uses more power.
I would say, most of these filament style will work well, since I think they use a higher voltage without the circuitry.
It's not too difficult to remove the small circuit board from bottom of these bulbs, though i may have used a heat gun to loosen the glue holding base to glass bulb.
Hi erfandl, here is the circuit drawing.
peace love light :)

Edit: just checked the 24awg, magnet wire primary turns, 19 turns, wrapped together tight, though is not tight on top of other coil.
 Going to make a tighter wind primary with double the turns, 40 turns and compare, then can remove turns and compare also.
thanks for reply. so primary is 19 turns and secondary is 40 turns ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 15, 2018, 09:30:09 AM
Hi all, thanks for the kind words lidmotor.
Hi erfandl, the original primary turns are 19, though the 30 awg. magnet wire secondary is one full layer over the 3-1/2" core former, I didn't count secondary turns.
Also, the primary is taped tight on at least  two sides, to get the wire strands tighter together and still allow the primary coil to slide on top of the secondary for tuning.
peace love light
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 15, 2018, 10:37:54 AM
Hi all, thanks for the kind words lidmotor.
Hi erfandl, the original primary turns are 19, though the 30 awg. magnet wire secondary is one full layer over the 3-1/2" core former, I didn't count secondary turns.
Also, the primary is taped tight on at least  two sides, to get the wire strands tighter together and still allow the primary coil to slide on top of the secondary for tuning.
peace love light
thanks so much  :D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on June 15, 2018, 02:49:30 PM
member Microvolt did post this info at Aaron's forum

here  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9717-dr-stiffler-sec-replications-11.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/9717-dr-stiffler-sec-replications-11.html)
 Quote
Dr. Stiffler's latest video offering to sell the last of the sec 18 boards.
 
 https://youtu.be/wCBE6eeMyjw (http://www.energeticforum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FwCBE6eeMyjw)
 email: stifflerscientific@embarqmail.com
end quote
Chet k
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 15, 2018, 05:27:36 PM
Hi SkyWatcher,

Thanks for the puffer cap test. I wonder if it caused any change in input current draw or in brightness, I guess not. It is easy to see: when in operation with the puffer cap in place, you remove the cap for a moment and see if there is any change. 

The stabil voltage (117.8 V DC) across the LED bulb is due to the Zener diode-like V-I characteristic of LEDs:
see this (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/images/LED-characteristics.gif)  from this site (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Semiconductors/diodes_25.php). 

 Your bulb includes 3 'ribbons' of LEDs,  I think each ribbon includes around 12 or 13 individual LEDs, all in series and the ribbons are also in seies connection I think.  Assuming 3.3 V forward voltage drop for each LED, 117.8/3.3=35.6  i.e.it gives 36 LEDs alltogether, so 12 LEDs for each ribbon if they can be counted by naked eye.
My calculation is an approximation of course, if I take only 3V forward voltage for each LED in the ribbons, then we get 39 LEDs, 13 for each ribbon.
The 20 mA input current from 5.1V is a very good achievement: it was surely due to the fact you increased the number of turns for the primary coil so the resonant high impedance of the secondary is transformed back to the collector with a lower turns ratio which of course results in a higher primary coil impedance the collector current 'sees'.
Let's put this with your numbers to understand it better: your 40 turn primary presents a much higher impedance for the collector (hence collector current reduces) than the original 19 turns primary coil presented, even if you changed the number of the secondary coil turns too, their ratio: Ns/Np should have got reduced (because Np is in the denominator and you doubled its value).   

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 15, 2018, 05:59:40 PM
You're kidding right ? LOL
Here we've been putting 2 or 3 turns on Primaries for years and in fact the 'same amount of copper' holds true if it's many turns too. The current always goes down with more turns but usually output does too when we use say 12AWG. By using 30AWG, the turns amount can go up, the transistor runs cooler and power usage can be reduced.
I know what i'll be doing within the next hour !

Great know about the simplified booster Lidmotor. A coil output following such a design changes the signal back to a sine too I gather, so it's all worthwhile exploring. 

To add:
Datasheet for PN4248:
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/original/PN4248_49.pdf
MPSA18 seems to be the common NPN that would suit. Similar ratings including the high gain.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 15, 2018, 06:09:19 PM
Hi Mark,
Here is some more 'kidding'... LOL
What if you make the primary coil also a resonant tank at the oscillator frequency ? i.e. at the self resonant frequency of the secondary coil because the latter is the main oscillator tank. 
This way the primary coil impedance can increase quasi independently from the turns ratio.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 15, 2018, 07:24:37 PM
Hi all, Hi gyulasun, something interesting i just observed.
I thought about your request and wanted to see what the current draw was if i placed a completely discharged 450 volt - 68 uF polarized capacitor across the av plug output,
The input current drops to zero, then climbs as it charges.
I thought a capacitor draws the most amperage when initially charging it, this circuit output then does the opposite.
I'm also testing this setup now at 11.5 volt input - .12 amps, the 1n4148 diodes are getting a little hot
and the voltage at the led bulb is 124 volts dc and led bulb blinding.
Oddly though, the transistor is staying slightly warm, even though the watt specs. are being exceeded.
peace love light
 
Edit: gyulasun, the led bulb has 4 ribbons and still, it could be a useful circuit for a capacitor dumping system, i think.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 15, 2018, 07:58:03 PM
Hi SkyWatcher,
Your observation is okay and "unfortunately" known science can explain it.  The uncharged capacitor is a short circuit in the very first moments it is attached to a voltage or current source.  You think it correctly that in these moments the capacitor draws the most amperage. But
Because in this oscillator the output is the oscillating coil itself, an LC tank, and C being the self capacitance of the coil, about 3 to 5 pf for such single layer and long coils.  So if the cap is shorting this tank and it surely does, then there can be no oscillations because the high impedance of the tank disappears and becomes a very low impedance.  If you touch the top wire of the tank with your finger, then oscillations may also stop hence input current will be nearly zero again.  (It cannot be total zero because the 100 kOhm base resistance should DC bias it a little.)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 15, 2018, 11:29:20 PM
....
Edit: gyulasun, the led bulb has 4 ribbons and still, it could be a useful circuit for a capacitor dumping system, i think.
Okay on the 4 ribbons instead of 3:  this does not matter here and does not change anything you have found or I have said on them so far, except for the number of LEDs in one ribbon may then be only 9 in series and the 4 ribbons are also in series.  What is needed for the original LED bulb manufactured for 120 V AC is to use as many LEDs as needed by summing up their forward voltage drops to make up closely for the full wave rectified and possibly also filtered mains input amplitude, to get the just needed LED current hence specified bulb power. 
You have the original circuit that was put inside for driving the LEDs from the mains, I think it consists of a full wave diode bridge and a puffer cap, and maybe a some Ohm resistor in series with the AC input to limit current a little.  LED lamps originating mainly from China use a 1-2 uF non-electrolytic capacitor also in series with the mains input to drop AC input voltage for the LEDs as needed.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 16, 2018, 12:33:23 AM
Hi Lidmotor,

Here are the data sheets for your 4 pin crystal oscillators.
http://pccomponents.com/datasheets/mpc-970t.pdf  for the 13.68 MHz  and
https://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/-2929749759931786650   for the ZPB-5 oscillator.

You can see that these also require 5V DC +/- 0.15V or so volt and the output gives TTL level oscillator signals.
I mention this because in your video 2 days ago the DC supply voltage was only 4.1V for the MPC 13.68 MHz oscillator.
Luckily the oscillator has been able to work and give output. 
From an 5V supply the output level will also increase to 4Vpp or so, too. Of course, if you wish to use a 4V supply instead of 5V and the 4 pin oscillator still works and gives enough output level for driving your proposed amplifier, then it is okay.

Gyula

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 16, 2018, 04:29:17 AM
Skywatcher123 - first of all let me apologise for getting your name wrong in the video below...am new here  ???
I had a look at your multi-turn Primary idea and must say that it's a great idea !
36 turns of the same 30AWG as the main coil. But the main coil is split in half as another difference.
The DMM seems to have messed up though, it reports 19.5mA at 5V  8)
Half decent light out of the 8W DT bulb, the 12 diode ring similar to Dr. Stiffler's build runs really really well. The pseudo SFM works wirelessly and the wireless field is all over the table and to a good height above it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6uVwFaCDeg

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 16, 2018, 06:42:26 AM
Hi all, Hi slider, thanks for sharing, now i will have to test using the same gauge for primary, which is also 30awg. in my setup.
I think your observed amp input, is probably fairly accurate.

I decided to place another identical, modified led bulb in parallel with the other led bulb.
The input did not change and both bulbs are quite bright, of course the original bulb dimmed a little, though not as much as one might imagine, the light output from both is very impressive.
I need to get some more 1n4148 diodes and put at least 2 in parallel per av plug leg, because they get hot.
Am also going to try some other small transistors to compare.
Though keep in mind, I'm using 1.5 watt input at the moment, though i wonder what the same gauge primary will do.
peace love light :)
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 16, 2018, 08:56:00 AM
Skywatcher123 - first of all let me apologise for getting your name wrong in the video below...am new here  ???
I had a look at your multi-turn Primary idea and must say that it's a great idea !
36 turns of the same 30AWG as the main coil. But the main coil is split in half as another difference.
The DMM seems to have messed up though, it reports 19.5mA at 5V  8)
Half decent light out of the 8W DT bulb, the 12 diode ring similar to Dr. Stiffler's build runs really really well. The pseudo SFM works wirelessly and the wireless field is all over the table and to a good height above it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6uVwFaCDeg
Hi slider. is it modified version of tesla coil ?
thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 16, 2018, 09:12:07 AM
  Skywatcher----I tried a 40w equivalent led filament bulb today and had good success.  Thanks on the tip about how to take it apart by heating up the base.  I just used a hair dryer on high and used gloves to protect my hands from the heat and possible breakage.  The little circuit board was glued in the base. It worked on the Slayer Exciter I am using and would also work in parallel with a second 40w just like what you discovered.  Fun stuff.

Guyla-----Thanks for the info on the crystal oscillators.  I'm thinking that I will just use 5v USB power now to drive them.  The one that I have been working with the most is the 16MHZ.  For some reason it will stay running all the way down to about 2v and gives the best 'Exciter' effects.  My experiments with a voltage booster amp are continuing.  Mixed results so far.

Slider---- Nice experiment with the Slayer Exciter coils arrangement.  I remember Gary was initially doing something like that on the very first ones.  We were tuning them by moving the primary up and down the secondary. Later on he ended up with the pancake coil primary and stuck with that I think.
      I am going to try the Doc's 'Big Ring' AV plug when I get a chance.  Yours seems to work pretty good.

Cheers All,
                  Lidmotor

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 16, 2018, 11:35:50 AM
I testing with tesla coil and 12 watt LED light with 1n4148 diode connected in series

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: DrJones on June 16, 2018, 03:32:23 PM
  Wow!  it's great to see all the "old guys" jumping in on this one...
  I've been following quite a bit - via youtube mostly.


  Mark writes:  "The DMM seems to have messed up though, it reports 19.5mA at 5V  [/font]"


That is amazing, probably quite accurate.  Would you pls see what happens when you remove some of the "satellite LEDs"?  I wonder if the power will drop much (or not).


  Also, Mark - could you pls measure the input power when you use a crystal oscillator as the driver?  wondering if it will be more or less than 100mW...?


Thanks for doing measurements!  Now if we could just also measure Pout... !!


PS - I've been doing some experiments on my bench too, but rather quickly burned out my little signal generator (sigh...).   I was lighting up an LED bulb quite nicely, when it blew...
Title: Back come the 'Old Guys' --one by one
Post by: Lidmotor on June 16, 2018, 07:25:50 PM
Dr. Jones----I agree with you that it is great seeing some of the 'old guys' resurface for this project.  Whether they agree or disagree with what is really happening it is good to hear from them again.  Sorry to hear about your signal generator failure.

erfanell ---- Glad to see you using one of those 'Musical Mini Tesla Coil' Slayer Exciters for this project.  I just did an experiment with mine this morning driving a 'filament led' like what Skywatcher123 did.  Those little under $10 'Mini Tesals' devices work really good for this project. This where I got my mini tesla coil kit for $5.49 shipping included: 
https://www.newfrog.com/product/mini-music-tesla-coil-plasma-speaker-electronic-field-15w-diy-project-kit-203125

All---This is what I did with it this morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojRZdeAEcdw
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 16, 2018, 07:44:59 PM
Lidmotor - nice ! cool little extra tip there with the foil on the outside of the bulb.

Skywatcher123 - the very thing of using the same gauge was a bit of learning that I didn't
know would work. It does simplify building in a way.

Steve - Good point about the crystal method....will do :)
As mentioned in the Youtube comments, there is a very strange effect with these. The
input power drops with more capacitively coupled loads. Each item remains at the same
level it was at, until a next load is added and then they all drop in output.  Pin can also begin to vary.
Inductive loads don't follow that, they use up most of everything available on small setups.
A small motor can spin well, but will pull the energy down with it.
A receiving coil can have a single diode from 1 wire end, the other goes directly to the
motor and then a 10uF electrolytic across the motor is one way to run it. That always tends
to work better than a FWBR and cap, which again is a bit strange.   


The secondary is from a few years back, where I was making an outdoor Wardenclyffe type
of design and the idea was to emulate the thinner connecting part shown in one Patent.
A regular tower on PVC pipe would likely work just the same way, but I like these 2 for
being on solder tubes, similar to Dr. Stiffler's L3's in size and shape. With only 150 turns
per section, it does make me wonder if actual L3's from a SEC would work as the secondary.   
Am going to try the posted idea of a tuning cap between the 2 halves, perhaps a variable cap.

News: fellow experimenter and Youtube subscriber iQuest has very generously funded the
acquisition of a genuine fully built SEC 18-1 from Dr. Stiffler.
I do hope that a few others have shown interest in helping him to get the current probe
equipment replaced....even if we're struggling to exactly repeat the experiments shown,
some great little devices have sprung up and, as Lidmotor and Prof Jones have said, the
'old guys' here are a joy to post with.

Some of the table stuff is outside now, where am looking at ground propagation again.
I fail abysmally outdoors but have good success indoors. It hasn't rained in a while though,
so the garden hose may have to be used.



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 16, 2018, 10:47:02 PM
Hi all, Hi lidmotor, thanks for sharing the nice video, i will look for those led bulbs at lowes.

A tip, i connected the bulbs wires to the screw in base and hot glued the base onto the glass bulb and I use those plastic or ceramic screw in bulb bases or even the small plastic ones with an ac male receptacle on one end.
It seems like the filament bulb is giving you more light. 8)
peace love light :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on June 16, 2018, 11:52:05 PM
 another place where the effort to measure is being investigated
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3628.msg68362;topicseen#msg68362
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 17, 2018, 12:51:34 AM
Steve - in answer to your question about current usage of the 2 pin crystal circuit -
Through a 1 ohm resistor, it's 3.6mA at 5V with the setup as pictured below.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 17, 2018, 05:06:29 AM
Hi all, if posting these spin off ideas are not wanted in this thread, someone let me know, then i will start another thread, as I'm finding this one wire exciter device to be very interesting.
So i tried 80 turns of 30awg. as primary and was not very impressed, at least with the one wire - av plug results at around 11.6 volt range input.
Then i was thinking and decided to weigh each primary air coil.
The 80 turn - 30 awg. weighs 4 grams.
The 40 turn - 24awg. weighs 7 grams.
The 80 turn - 24awg. weighs 15 grams.
The higher mass primary air coil is more efficient, this test and pictures used the 80 turn 24awg. primary coil.
Was able to light 1 of the led bulbs to about the same brightness as the previous test at .55 watts input, though only using 134 milliwatts at 11.5 milliamps at 11.67 volts.
Seems interesting.
peace love light :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 17, 2018, 08:57:22 AM
the wifi signal like SEC. I testing it 2 years ago

see attached videos

also the topic: https://overunity.com/17607/germanium-diode-powered-led-from-wifi-waves/ (https://overunity.com/17607/germanium-diode-powered-led-from-wifi-waves/)

Title: Another led array to try with the Stiffler Loop
Post by: Lidmotor on June 17, 2018, 06:47:54 PM
I found another led array that worked on a Slayer Exciter and should be a good substitute for Dr. Stiffler's Cree led array that he is using 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0NWPXXBooY
 
Skywatcher--- I think that there is enough of a interface between the Stiffler Loop and this Slayer Exciter spin off to keep all of it on this thread.   The signal generator / scope testing should have a comparison to see if the same results can be obtained another way and how much power is required to do that.  Driving an led with a certain frequency, a voltage, and with little or NO amperage --  is the question at hand.

erfandl---What you just showed us (driving an led with a WiFi signal) is perhaps another spinoff we should look at again with these new leds.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 17, 2018, 07:34:49 PM
I agree with the spin-offs.
After all, everyone here is interested in the most light for the buck...literally at dollar stores :)
The techniques for driving them that have been shown by Dr. Stiffler are crossing over to
other setups, so it's all valid in my opinion.

The WiFi setup needs exploration for harvesting.
The near field evidently works, they were great videos.
Can we tune in to WiFi at such high frequencies at a distance, without specialist equipment ?

I took apart a Lowe's bought 9W 60W equiv LED bulb, made by Utilitech.
It has a MOSFET and spaces for resistors on it.
Am going to try and bypass the circuit bits and see about driving it from the back plate.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 17, 2018, 08:13:58 PM
with 5.8 GHz wifi the circuit cant running only works on 2.4 GHz wifi. I think if we design an hi efficiency antenna and connecting to diodes, we getting more distance to work. for now with AA119 germanium diode working from 20cm
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 17, 2018, 11:57:24 PM
...
So i tried 80 turns of 30awg. as primary and was not very impressed, at least with the one wire
- av plug results at around 11.6 volt range input.Then i was thinking and decided to weigh each primary air coil.
The 80 turn - 30 awg. weighs 4 grams.
The 40 turn - 24awg. weighs 7 grams.
The 80 turn - 24awg. weighs 15 grams.
The higher mass primary air coil is more efficient, this test and pictures used the 80 turn 24awg. primary coil.
Was able to light 1 of the led bulbs to about the same brightness as the previous test at .55 watts input,
though only using 134 milliwatts at 11.5 milliamps at 11.67 volts.Seems interesting.
peace love light :)
Hi SkyWatcher,

Some calculations I attempted show that your higher mass primary air coil (80 turns, 24 awg, 15 gram) has about
0.69 Ohm wire resistance while the lower mass coil (80 turn, 30 awg, 4 gram) has about 2.98 Ohm DC resistance.

Because the 11.5 mA collector current flows through the primary coil, the heat loss is 0.01152 * 0.69 = 91.2 mW
in the awg 24 wire and if you substract this from the total 134 mW input, it comes that only 134-91 = 43 mW is
what makes the magnetic field for the primary coil: this sounds very bad (I neglected the loss in the transistor
coming from its collector-emitter saturation voltage).
You can check with the DMM Ohm meter the primary DC resistance, maybe I miscalculated it? 

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 18, 2018, 12:21:58 AM
Hi Lidmotor,

Thanks for showing the test with the new LED type you found, very good.  This test shows
that the brightness depends only on the RF voltage amplitude a "good" type LED is fed with
capacitively via its back plate from a resonant coil.  Tests done on the other forum also show
that a 'magic' frequency (like 13.5 MHz or so) is not needed, and also the Doc's CREE type LED board
has no special property for the effect.


Dear erfandl and lidmotor:

Please restrict the pixel number for your uploaded pictures to a maximum of 900 pixels horizontally because anything higher
than that like 1280 or 2592 you both uploded recently makes the thread extremely wide and difficult to read.
This is why we need scroll horizontally back and forth to be abloe to read some posts.
High vertical pixel numbers cause no problem, only the horizontal ones. You can use a simple picture editor like Windows Paint
 to resize the wider than 900 pixel pictures. Unfortunately, you need to edit your post within 12 hours after posting
because forum software does not let modifying posts after the 12 hours passes.
So in the future please consider this when uploading higher resolution pictures.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 18, 2018, 03:49:25 AM
A frequency tunable exciter

A 50 turn Dr. Stiffler type L3 was made on 1/2" PVC pipe. It worked fine as a Slayer
Exciter, with a 24 turn same gauge primary. Frequency was 21MHz.
Next, 5 more turns were added and the result was a decrease to 17MHz.
Aha, so it's just like a Crystal Radio and the tuning...more turns for a lower frequency.

Using an 80 turn Dr. Stiffler like coil as the movable section and keeping the primary from
moving instead, the coil can be moved left and right to run from ~9Mhz to ~17MHz.
That also includes the 13.6MHz
I had thought that all we were doing with the primaries on Slayer type circuits, was
tuning for most efficiency and best wireless output.
Perhaps driving it at 20V is as easy as running a Chinese booster circuit in front and using
a TIP122 or 2N3055 as the Slayer transistor. This one is using a 2N3904.

Here's the vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNH6UMBo2LE
(3min 09sec)

Pic of the circuit:
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 18, 2018, 04:29:24 AM
Now you can make a proper tuned-circuit receiver and do away with the single wire connection, and light your LED wirelessly.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 18, 2018, 05:32:05 AM
Hi all, i noticed some post directed towards me, I will read them shortly, though just wanted to share a short video showing the setup as it is now.
I raised the voltage to 16 volts for a more light output and have 4 parallelled sets of 1n4148 diodes in series as the av plug.
The input is now 21 milliamps at 15.98 volts or 336 milliwatts.
The brightness is impressive, though still bloomed a little in the video, thought a video would help reduce that, guess not.
In my many light experiments, I've yet to see this kind of light output for such a low input power.
I'm still sticking to the more copper mass primary is of benefit story. 8)
https://youtu.be/8H_TYJFTJyo (https://youtu.be/8H_TYJFTJyo)
peace love light :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 18, 2018, 05:46:45 AM
TK---do you remember back about 4 years ago you did something like this and it inspire me to try it?  Here is the video of it from 2014.  I used a tunable inductor instead of the capacitor but it is the same tank circuit receiver idea.  What comes around goes around.  I still have that thing and I've been playing around with it on this project.  Here is my little creation from 2014:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOkkF4pr23s

  Here is your 2014 video that inspired me.  It is totally applicable to what we are doing here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80D92QaOcM4

---Lidmotor

PS --Thanks Gyula for the tips on posting size issue.  I will work on it when I figure out how to do it. Ha
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 18, 2018, 11:52:43 AM
Hi SkyWatcher,

Okay on your  "sticking to the more copper mass primary is of benefit story",  that is fine with me.  8)
What comes from my previous post to you on the primary coil having about 0.69 Ohm resistance (as per my calculation) is that to reduce the loss in this coil, the solution invariably involves increasing the copper mass by using thicker wire for it.   ;)

Using thicker than AWG 24 wire or using several wires in parallel as you have done so recently in the René charger tests invariably involves using more mass:  the goal is to reduce DC resistance to as a low value as possible and practical, well below 0.69 Ohm.
 This tendency is to be observed for the resonant secondary coil too but obviously the mechanical size limitations bring trade-offs in the quest.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 18, 2018, 11:57:40 AM
Hi Lidmotor,

you wrote
PS -- I will work on it when I figure out how to do it. Ha

Well, by now you cannot do it because the 12 hour long time period available for editing is over for your post with the high resolution picture but here is how to do it, others may also benefit from it.
There is the Modify icon at the upper right corner of your post (you need to log in and also you should be within the 12 hour editing time limit).

You can see these under your post to be modified and just click on the Clear attachment icon to remove the high res picture. Then use a picture editor (like Paint in the Windows) to reduce the number of pixels (Paint has a Resize feature).  When your picture has the not higher than 900 pixel number horizontally, then save it and attach it again to your post (as the first attachment).   It is unfortunate that the software for this forum has such shortcomings like oversized pictures cause.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 18, 2018, 02:51:41 PM
TK - with enough smog, that circuit will run inductive loads too...it's the same on the right as the way motors can be driven. Works better than an FWBR with a cap.
One example of a use for everyone in the USA would be 60Hz...your Rigol scope will likely show mains noise whenever no other circuit is running and I think it would be neat to have a situation where that doesn't happen. The smog harvester removing it.
I've no idea how to do the mathematics on that, but the coil would have to be of a high turns number to bring it to that resonance point.
It may work for the UK and other 50Hz countries, as is, don't know yet.
I'd really like to build such a thing.
That would be something to behold, no visible input power but a Cree board is sat there lit up.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 18, 2018, 02:53:21 PM
   Lidmotor:   Just use paint to resize the image to less than 1500 wide.  That's what I do on Windows 10,  without needing any other photo software.
   I also took apart one of those 40w equivalent, 4w led filament bulbs. But, mine has no led chips, but uses 4 led filaments inside the sealed glass bulb. The bulb itself is longer than the one you have.  And this bulb also works great, running capacitively off of my Kacher circuit, after I gutted it. I'll do a video of it soon. Just need to get the diodes on it, when I have a chance.
  The image below is taken when using a 5w solar panel connected as the input to my Kacher circuit. 12v panel, max 5 watt output.
It gives a LOT OF LIGHT.  Bang for the buck... 

   I'm expecting a 12v to 35v buck converter, so we'll see what that does to the input voltages that can be tried.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 18, 2018, 03:14:25 PM
   Lidmotor:   Just use paint to resize the image to less than 1500 wide.  That's what I do on Windows 10,  without needing any other photo software.
 ...
Hi Nick,

Unfortunately the less than 1500 wide is not good yet, I tested it and found the 900 pixel as the maximum.
Your above picture has 1000 and it is already wide a little...  8)

 Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 18, 2018, 05:13:19 PM
   OK, I'll make them smaller yet, like 800 wide, or so.   We need to keep the site working right.   Thanks.   
   BTW:  I can't read the numbers on the crystal, I can see three zereos, 000, at the end, first number has solder on it.
  I an still tryng to find the right bulb with the metal backing, otherwise it won't work, capacitively.I see that building the correct controllable crystal, or other, type of oscillator circuit is essential, as most guys don't have an SG.
  My idea is still to follow the capacitive trail to the source of any anomoly.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 18, 2018, 05:18:59 PM
Likely a lot of this is about the monitors used.
For example, mine was from a Salvation Army thrift store for $5...IBM ThinkVision 17".
It's square. Many others will have 24" super wides or 3 monitors in a horizontal line and all
that snazzy stuff. Somewhere between will be widescreen laptops and likely phones and tablets.
Browsers will also display differently. Am using Firefox 59.0.2, where 1000px is a touch
wide here too.
The ideal would likely be an image that can be seen, say 640x480 and which would suit all
scenarios, but that can be clicked on for a full sized version.


Am soldering up the AD9850 signal generator today.
The rotary encoder and screen are still on their way, but another encoder has been finally
found and a 1602 screen has been removed from a previous project.
The idea is to run a frequency, any frequency up to 30MHz with the circuit and then see
how simplified circuits such as the tunable exciter setup behave with that same frequency.
The AD9850 is a low output device, but will help with verifications and pointers for
resonant frequencies of coils and loads.   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 18, 2018, 05:34:01 PM
...   
   BTW:  I can't read the numbers on the crystal, I can see three zereos, 000, at the end, first number has solder on it.
...
I think Slider posted a link to a good crystal checker and if your crystal oscillates then you can estimate the frequency
from the scope display. See the circuit you could buld with any small signal transistor:
http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2012/08/simple-oscillator-as-crystal-tester/ (http://jaunty-electronics.com/blog/2012/08/simple-oscillator-as-crystal-tester/)   

On the scope you extend the time base to see say 2 full period of the waveform, it makes easier to see and calculate frequency.

Gyula
Title: Post size
Post by: Lidmotor on June 18, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Gyula---Thanks for the help on the post size.  I still don't quite understand what is going on. I changed to another computer and on this computer the text at least is the right size.  Can it be a basic setting on the other computer?  I'm very sorry about the oversized posts with the BIG picture.  I will work on this and not post pics until I have the problem solved.  Using paint on the computer will work on the pics but what about the text width?

Thanks,  Lidmotor

P.S. All --  I think this project river is flowing in the right direction even though there are side eddies.  I am anxious to see Slider get his homemade frequency generator up and running.   

Here is a test picture from this computer--
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 18, 2018, 06:25:35 PM
Hi all, Hi gyulasun, thanks for the information.

Yes, that is exactly what i was thinking to try next, is multistrand 24awg. magnet wire primary coil.

I'll try a bifilar 24awg. magnet wire coil with both strands in parallel and use 80 turns again.
The coil will have even more mass now, we shall see how she performs.
peace love light :)

Edit: ok, i just finished winding the new magnet wire coil, it is bifilar 24awg. magnet wire, strands are in parallel at 300 milliohms and 31 grams weight, which includes a little electrical tape, that is used to tighten the windings together.
 
Title: Re: Post size
Post by: gyulasun on June 18, 2018, 07:55:37 PM
....
Here is a test picture from this computer--
Hi Lidmotor,

An oversized picture causes the text to widen automatically in a post too but only in case you do not use
carriage return (Enter) after ,say, 7-8 words, this will make the text a column-like format.  So whenever you
make a post in a thread which is already too wide by a high resolution picture, then you can make it easily
readable by reediting your text to a narrower series of lines, all this within 12 hours after the posting time.

This forum software sucks in this respect and Stefan Hartmann should resolve such issues now that he is going to
change the forum software he has been postponing for ages now...

The Tesla picture you have uploaded to test one of your computers is ok by size because it has pixel number of
512x655 and the 512 number (the horizontal pixel number) can go as high as about 900 with the present forum
software without causing thread widening.

If you open a picture in an editor like Paint (built into Windows) before uploading to your post, you can see the
number of pixels in the very bottom line in the editor and using the Resize feature you can adjust it.As Slider
mentioned above, the width and resolution of one's PC monitor also counts in a certain extend but generally
many forum members 'suffer' when a too wide picture is attached to a post in a thread.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 18, 2018, 08:11:49 PM
Oh and just to explain my posts following the supersized pic...yes I too hit enter after several words, as Gyula mentioned.
For all pics, I open them in GIMP, resize to a width of 640 and save out again. Am running Linux Mint.
Can Peter over at Overunityresearch be approached to share his code ? because the forums have a very similar layout. Both seem to be using code from Simple Machines. Over there, each pic is a large thumbnail that can be clicked for larger.


Here's where the sig gen is up to. Am wiring it up now. At some point it'll get a case :)
Title: Posted pic size
Post by: Lidmotor on June 18, 2018, 08:22:58 PM
Gyula and Slider---Thanks for the help on the post size issue.  I will get there but it takes me awhile to learn certain things.

-- Lidmotor

P.S.-- Slider that little signal generator looks really cool!  I hope it works.  If it does I guess my next project might be that one.  I can team it up with my old computer O scope and maybe get something meaningful done.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 18, 2018, 11:36:31 PM
If you're not used to editing pics then it can seem a bit daunting. It really isn't a trauma, after the first couple of times. Oh, your camera may have resolution and size settings, which may be in the menu's if it's a phone.   


The build has been interesting, shall we say.
It's comprised of the AD9850 module, an Arduino, a screen and a rotary encoder. The bits laid out well on the perfboard.
Schematic that has been followed is here:
http://arduinotehniq.blogspot.com/2015/03/signal-generator-with-ad98509-and.html

I soldered everything up and plugged in the USB cable.
Smoke escaped from the Arduino diode !!!!
It wasn't just a whimpish puff of a slow fail either, the damn thing went off like it meant to fail properly !
I disconnected power to the screen and AD9850, then connected directly to the +5V and GND of the Arduino....life.
So then I connected the screen, it came on fine and showed the code running.
Twiddling the encoder works fine, values go up and down and the push button bit works fine too. As you can see in the image below, it was set readily to 13.6MHz (I had also changed the code because it had said 'Mhz' originally).
But connecting the VCC of the AD9850 powers everything off. That shorting condition will have blown the diode under the Arduino.

Am now going to power the AD9850 on its own and see if the red power LED comes on.   
 :-\
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 19, 2018, 12:24:54 AM
...
Edit: ok, i just finished winding the new magnet wire coil, it is bifilar 24awg. magnet wire, strands are in parallel at 300 milliohms and 31 grams weight, which includes a little electrical tape, that is used to tighten the windings together.
Hi SkyWatcher,

Okay, so the paralleled wires now give 0.3 Ohm DC resistance for the primary air coil. This means the dissipated loss in the primary will certainly be less than earlier for the 0.69 Ohm (calculated by me) single wire winding, considering similar collector current.

Here I have to tell you I made a calculation mistake for the dissipated power for the single wire primary coil in my post #239 where I got a rather high loss at the 11.2 mA collector current: this was only 0.0912 (and not 91.2) mW, sorry for the mistake, I rang the alarm unfounded.   :o

Because you have increased since then the supply voltage to 16 V and the collector current was 21 mA, the loss for the single wire primary may have been 0.0212 * 0.69 = 0.304 mW. If you now keep the supply voltage and current the same for the paralleled two wires in the new primary coil, then the dissipated loss in the paralleled wires would be 0.0212 * 0.3 = 0.132 mW only.

So all these mean that such low primary coil dissipation is negligble versus your earlier 336 mW total input power (for the single wire primary coil case).  Probably you will not see much improvement in brightness with the paralleled wire primary coil versus the single wire one, provided you insure identical input power for both.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 19, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
Hi Slider,

Re on your picture size 640 you use here: as long as this forum software is not changed to a better one, you can bravely increase horizontal size up to 900 if it shows some picture details better. Alternatively, you can cut the picture edges on the left and right sides when there is not meaningful detail at those areas, this can also reduce the horizontal picture size.

Good progress on your SG build, and hopefully the AD9850 chip did not get damaged.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 19, 2018, 01:23:06 AM
I may try some of that bravery hehe
900 it is :)

The AD9850 has been tried on its own, on a breadboard, with an LED on the power rails to denote power. Every combination of VCC and GND, be it both or just single VCC and GND produces the shorting out.
Here's an Unlisted video that demonstrates what's going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EmRj5f04nY
I've contacted the seller via Amazon, requesting a replacement module.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 19, 2018, 08:42:51 AM
Hi all. is any replacement for PN4248 transistor ? I want to make my own Slayer Exciter circuit but PN4248 not available in my country

thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 19, 2018, 11:03:48 AM
Hi Erfandl,
If you wish to use also a pnp type replacement,  then out of the many types there is the 2N3906 which may be available for you. These are the data sheets for it, many manufacturers produce it:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/3/9/2N3906.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/3/9/2N3906.shtml)  If you have  RS Components, Mouser, Digikey, Futurlec or similar vendors, then I can look up some more types for you from the available offers. The PN4248 is a general purpose, low noise audio transistor, the latter feature is not needed here. There are two parameters that need attention for a substitute type: low saturation collector-emitter voltage and a decent hFE of 100 or higher and perhaps you can find such locally.

Gyula
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 19, 2018, 12:21:52 PM
....
I've contacted the seller via Amazon, requesting a replacement module.
Hi Slider,

That is the best that can be done, unfortunately.

Even if someone starts looking for a faulty component by say carefully removing a tantalum chip capacitor which is across Vcc or lifting up the 4 positive supply pins for the AD9850 one by one, etc  the result may reveal the problem but the soldering may remain visible on the PCB and would just jeopardise any board replacement immediately.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 19, 2018, 05:18:59 PM
Hi Erfandl,
If you wish to use also a pnp type replacement,  then out of the many types there is the 2N3906 which may be available for you. These are the data sheets for it, many manufacturers produce it:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/3/9/2N3906.shtml (http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/N/3/9/2N3906.shtml)  If you have  RS Components, Mouser, Digikey, Futurlec or similar vendors, then I can look up some more types for you from the available offers. The PN4248 is a general purpose, low noise audio transistor, the latter feature is not needed here. There are two parameters that need attention for a substitute type: low saturation collector-emitter voltage and a decent hFE of 100 or higher and perhaps you can find such locally.

Gyula
thanks Gyula I found 2N3906 in my area  8)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 19, 2018, 05:55:12 PM
2N3906's are decent workhorses for PNP.
2SA733 are good and plentiful too.


The seller, HiLetgo, got back to me saying they are sorry.
Also to recontact if there is still a problem (?)
Does anyone know how to re-contact sellers on Amazon ?
Update - found a way to contact and have done so.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 19, 2018, 07:21:19 PM

Slider,

see bottom of this page:   http://www.hiletgo.com/

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 19, 2018, 08:46:45 PM
Many thanks Itsu,
It should be ok from now, i've just luckily not had to do the runaround emails thing before on Amazon. They seem fine, but understandably guarded about fake claims.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 19, 2018, 08:47:51 PM
When Doctor Stiffler said  "What does mass have to do with it ? "
He was dealing with less experienced persons doing the series resonance experiment.
He meant that the experimenters should use a large plate capacitor (aluminum blocks)
instead of the small pico farad component. Increase of surface area.

The tiny signal generator boards are the same it is difficult to remove the vhf zig zag.
One board kk moon MHS 5200A was big enough to get in and remove the noise. Distributor=Hiletgo.
Also upgrading the final op amp brought the SG to a descent quality. The reinvented wheel.
Increase the surface area, in this case with a congested board. Cut the trace and mount modification up.
Requires precision skill, a microsope and steady hand. The lightning on the sine wave is another example how great engineers where replaced by digital dummkopfs that don't listen. Lacking the precision methods. handicapping the world with oneness.
The MHS 5200  https://youtu.be/-xOKNi8M3xE
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 20, 2018, 04:17:08 AM
Hi all, Hi erfandl, yes, the 2n3906 seems to work good,also 2n2907 and 2n4403 works good also.

I notice the pn4248 does not have the same gain and i can see that first hand with my setup,
as i found another one in my salvage stash. ;D

I'm testing two 2n3906's in parallel at the moment.
peace love light 8)
Title: The $50 function generator
Post by: Lidmotor on June 20, 2018, 06:57:43 PM
All--- I went ahead and ordered one of those $50 function generators like what Dr. Jones fried attempting to replicate the Dr. Stiffler latest experiments.  Building up a signal generator specific to this project isn't going to work for me.  My hope is that I can isolate the function generator to prevent the failure Dr. Jones had.  I will probably use this tool for many other projects -- if I can keep it alive.  If it doesn't do anything for this particular project so be it.  If I kill it the cost was not much.
  Here is the unit I bought off EBay.  It ships for free from a California source where I live.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FY3200S-24MHz-DDS-Dual-channel-Arbitrary-Function-Signal-Generator-LCD-Display/401351848279?epid=1685917492&hash=item5d726f3157:g:k3UAAOSw6YtZSyGA

 
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 20, 2018, 08:11:03 PM
Lidmotor - very nice, you've been missing one of those !
It has the 20Vpp and also the measurement function is intriguing.
What's a Symplectic Pulse ?   :o

Oh and it has this line in the ad:
"Protection    All signals output can work above 60s under the condition of load short circuit"


HiLetgo are sending another AD9850, so all's good on that front.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 20, 2018, 09:19:41 PM
Slider---- This should be fun to see if I can get this function generator to at least do what those little crystal oscillators I have do.  As you and I know the 'Exciters' energize the whole area around the device so trying to isolate and protect this generator might be tricky.  The crystal oscillators tolerated it just fine so I am wondering what went wrong with the Dr. Jones experiment.
  I have no idea what a Symplectic signal is.  I tried looking it up but got confusing answers from Google.  Perhaps I'm too symple minded? Ha.
  I hope you get your AD9850 eventually running.  Had you gotten your project instantly working I might have gone that direction.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 21, 2018, 12:26:36 AM
Instantly working for some projects is about the same as "I'll just print out this PDF and be right with you". There's usually a niggle of something.
There may be a need to protect the return path of the output signal with something like an optical isolator. Am not sure of the speed they max out at, but can be as simple as an I/R LED and detector inside a black straw. Another route may be to use a transistor as a high speed switch, such that only it blows if anything odd happens.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 21, 2018, 07:41:47 AM
Slider---  I was thinking of using a transistor to isolate the function generator.  I will probably try a fast diode and a cap on the way to the transistor base.  I plan on just lighting up a few leds so maybe that is not even needed.  I would hate to zap the thing in the first 5 minutes.

 Good news today!  I built up that simple one transistor crystal circuit you showed a ways back and got it to work using a 7MHz  2 pin crystal.  I had to fiddle around with cap values and several different  L3 coils but finally got it light leds down one wire.  Pretty cool.  Ran it off a 9v battery.  I will play around with the neat little circuit more tomorrow. I wish more people would try it.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 21, 2018, 07:59:01 AM
Hi all, I'm trying some different leds with the same exciter setup.
I picked up a 4 pack of Utilitech 14 watt 1600 lumens, led tube lamps or linear lamps, the ones meant to replace those flourescent electronic ballast lights.
On clearance for 5 bucks, and they are encased in glass.
So, after hooking one up, realized it must have circuitry inside.
I then proceeded to break the entire glass envelope and slice all the glass off, that was attached with some silicone to a strip of aluminum backplate.
It's just one long led strip of 52 leds, though i cut one off and another shorter strip of 24 leds, cut another one off also.
I separated the two strips and they both light up very well with this exciter.
The 24 led strip is blinding at 520 milliwatts.
I had to scrape a couple spots to solder wire connections.
I will test the 52 led strip tomorrow.
The nice thing is, i essentially have 4 strips of 24 leds in series and 4 strips of 52 leds in series for only 5 dollars, with only a little work to get those strips, cutting off the circuitry and also being careful, use gloves. ;)
peace love light

Edit: another interesting thing, when you touch the aluminum back plate strip, i can see the leds light up slightly, with the circuit not oscillating.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 21, 2018, 08:31:11 AM
Lidmotor happy for you, arbitrary, sweep, frequency counter, precision signal.

Slider good one, There are a lot of diodes on the SEC 18 the remote idea with opto coupling is interesting.
The circuit for fiber optic transmits and receives of sine in the radio frequency over a few meters or less of fiber cable turns into pulse... the turn-on voltage of the led is received at the photo transistor at the led turn on voltage.
It is an interesting shape because it has rounded edges and a narrow triangle offset above base line gives a narrow pulse. A sine into AV plug, the half wave into photo transistor should be slightly more narrow, arbitrary function could simulate that. The signal generator can be placed behind while the photo transistor and final amplifier stage could be on the bench keeping a distance for delicate circuitry might be helpful.
There should be some results coming up on the 13W led light. (not my video)
https://youtu.be/me3kPvrOLi0
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 21, 2018, 03:08:14 PM
Slider---  I was thinking of using a transistor to isolate the function generator.  I will probably try a fast diode and a cap on the way to the transistor base.  I plan on just lighting up a few leds so maybe that is not even needed.  I would hate to zap the thing in the first 5 minutes.

 Good news today!  I built up that simple one transistor crystal circuit you showed a ways back and got it to work using a 7MHz  2 pin crystal.  I had to fiddle around with cap values and several different  L3 coils but finally got it light leds down one wire.  Pretty cool.  Ran it off a 9v battery.  I will play around with the neat little circuit more tomorrow. I wish more people would try it.

---Lidmotor
  end quote.


   Lidmotor:   I am also looking into building a crystal oscillator circuit. I've pulled out several crystals from my junk pile.
So, I have the following crystal ready to test, the 3.5k, 4K, 7,2K, 8k, and the closest to the 13.45K that the Doc tunes to, is a 12k crystal. I also have a 20k, if needed, and I can further tune the crystal oscillator by the ferrite rod inside the Tesla secondary coil. 
   However, as Gyula mentioned, the main L3 type coil needs to be at the same frequency as the running oscillator frequency for the best effects. This I will try to do afterwards.
  I have also managed to make the 120v reflector led bulb that I had previously shown a picture of, to light by capacitance. By placing the two diodes on it, and placing the whole bulb on an aluminum base, so that it lights up now. May not work as well as the right led bulb with the aluminum back plate, but it lights up pretty well, in any case.  So, I'm looking into just what crystal oscillator circuit to use, one the can output enough power to properly light the bulb(s).
  Any ideas are welcome...
   BTW: I have never had any problems with my 2MHz SG being affected by HV, it's old, but still works fine. It's just too low powered for this project, as the output has to be able to light neon bulbs when connected to an oscillator, not just leds.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 21, 2018, 04:30:56 PM
   Here's some pics of the bulbs that I'm using. I got the round led 120v reflector spot light bulb to light off of capacitance. It's ready for the crystal oscillator circuit.

   The filament bulb lights the brightest, (bang to the buck), but I can only make it light with a single wire connection to it, to one side of the filaments. It's a 40w equilavent, and it lights quite bright.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 21, 2018, 05:27:38 PM
   Here's some pics of the bulbs that I'm using. I got the round led 120v reflector spot light bulb to light off of capacitance. It's ready for the crystal oscillator circuit.

   The filament bulb lights the brightest, (bang to the buck), but I can only make it light with a single wire connection to it, to one side of the filaments. It's a 40w equilavent, and it lights quite bright.
Hi NickZ. is any schematic of crystal oscillator circuit ?

thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 21, 2018, 06:28:59 PM
Hi all, i realized this morning, that the utilitech led tube lamp is actually 3 series strings of 26 leds wired in parallel, printed on a fairly thick aluminum strip.
So i cut them to make 3 nice led strips.

These might work well for the stiffler experiments, with the aluminum back plate.

They are also very efficient, rated at 114 lumens per watt.

The led strip lighted is 24 leds, because i cut off the circuitry on the ends and a couple leds went with it.
It is blinding bright for around .5 watts input.
peace love light 8)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 21, 2018, 06:30:02 PM
Nick - that's one of those Dendera bulbs from Egypt  :P
It looks great, with the warm glow.

uV - TK's video was great, the way that the photo-transistor followed the output exactly.
Perhaps it could also be a wave shaping method on an output, to remove or introduce edges. 

SkyWatcher - The strips seem similar to LED automotive bulbs. Have got a couple of headlight bulbs here where there are about 100 LED's on the things. I cut strips off them. Years ago I used to go to Dollar Tree to get closet push lights that had 3x 5mm LED's on them and now for not much more there are those automotive LED's !



Side track:
Am glad that the crystal circuit is being built by others, It's easy to make and i'm thinking that if something efficient to the Doc's principles can be built for lighting, a crystal would effectively 'hard code' a frequency of that operation for replications. Ideally 13.6MHz, yet it all has to be worked out with some flexibility based on results so far. We all could perhaps tweak and improve something with known values.
I'm not versed well enough to fully expand the idea yet, but, the overview is a circuit where the output coil(s) are tuned to the crystal frequency. The circuit has a sensible but limited wireless field around a desk lamp. Other devices/objects/circuits can be powered similarly to if they were using solar cells around the lamp. No antennas or bulky coil pickups...more like Qi, with a simple pancake coil and multiple SMD diode array.
Can it ever charge a phone ? not with the requirement of >450mA for smartphones, but it may well be able to power a lot of other handy gadgets such as calculators, LCD games, small fans and AA chargers. Standardised, where things are thrown near the lamp and they just work.   

Another thought is about Home Automation away from WiFi and Bluetooth.
A switch box could be plugged in to the wall mains. Inside, it has a step-down circuit to 5V (so could have a couple of USB outputs as secondary function). The box has several switches on the front, relating to lamps or other devices in the house. Flick a switch and the crystal circuit for a set value is started up. That frequency goes down the mains wiring and somewhere in the house a plugged in device begins to oscillate because of that frequency. Its circuit runs.
Usage example would be going to the toilet at night. Flick just 1 switch in the bedroom and 3 different lights come on to light the way to the bathroom.
If there are 6 switch frequencies, they could be known as 1,2,3,4,5,6. All devices with a 3 written on them switch on when the 3 switch is in operation. All '1' devices may use a 20V step-up driver from the switch box and would be used for lighting lamps similar to the Doc's Cree board.
The need for specific resonance conditions then works to our favour, locking out the other devices.
Anything plugged in to wall sockets only needs to be connected to 1 pin, making the whole thing far safer than traditional mains outlets.
A scavenger circuit could remove fears of electro smog being unhealthy in the house, doubling as a power indicator light as it soaks up excess field energies.
Also important, only the switch box is actually mains powered.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 21, 2018, 07:23:37 PM
Hi NickZ. is any schematic of crystal oscillator circuit ?

thanks
It was given before, but here's my version of the Simple Crystal Oscillator. I used a BC337-25 transistor, also tested it with a VHF transistor, MPSH10, which also worked well but didn't have the amplitude of the 337. I think just about any NPN would work in this circuit.

The original circuit made a signal but didn't have the ability to really drive anything. I added a 74c14 hex Schmitt trigger inverter and ran the SCO's output through 3 of the inverter stages, which helped to square up the signal and make it capable of actually driving some small load (like a mosfet driver or a transistor). The inverter is pretty slow though so this version only works best for lower frequencies. I also added some bulk capacitance at the power entry point, which also helped to clean up the waveforms, both before and after the Schmitt trigger inverter stages.

Yellow is SCO output before Schmitt trigger stages, blue is after.  Input is about 6.5 volts from a regulated PSU.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 21, 2018, 07:39:58 PM
It was given before, but here's my version of the Simple Crystal Oscillator. I used a BC337-25 transistor, also tested it with a VHF transistor, MPSH10, which also worked well but didn't have the amplitude of the 337. I think just about any NPN would work in this circuit.

The original circuit made a signal but didn't have the ability to really drive anything. I added a 74c14 hex Schmitt trigger inverter and ran the SCO's output through 3 of the inverter stages, which helped to square up the signal and make it capable of actually driving some small load (like a mosfet driver or a transistor). The inverter is pretty slow though so this version only works best for lower frequencies. I also added some bulk capacitance at the power entry point, which also helped to clean up the waveforms, both before and after the Schmitt trigger inverter stages.

Yellow is SCO output before Schmitt trigger stages, blue is after.  Input is about 6.5 volts from a regulated PSU.
What do you mean the the 74 series chip is slow ?  how slow here i have a CMOS chip CD4060 with a 13.4Mhz chip it's fast I found this
in looking for 432hz multiples up to 1.3 mhz region, even a 4011 will clap away at 15mhz easy all with a 8volt power rail, you might not be so lucky
 with if using older stock.

This old bulb of Nick's they remind me of some of the old junk that worked of DC from years a go now you can get them in hard ware stores allover.
I was called a Beretta voltage dropper. I had a knowledgeable grandfather if any ones asking.



AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 21, 2018, 07:47:00 PM
It was given before, but here's my version of the Simple Crystal Oscillator. I used a BC337-25 transistor, also tested it with a VHF transistor, MPSH10, which also worked well but didn't have the amplitude of the 337. I think just about any NPN would work in this circuit.

The original circuit made a signal but didn't have the ability to really drive anything. I added a 74c14 hex Schmitt trigger inverter and ran the SCO's output through 3 of the inverter stages, which helped to square up the signal and make it capable of actually driving some small load (like a mosfet driver or a transistor). The inverter is pretty slow though so this version only works best for lower frequencies. I also added some bulk capacitance at the power entry point, which also helped to clean up the waveforms, both before and after the Schmitt trigger inverter stages.

Yellow is SCO output before Schmitt trigger stages, blue is after.  Input is about 6.5 volts from a regulated PSU.
thanks for reply. what the number of quartz ? is output must be shorted together ?
thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 21, 2018, 08:45:18 PM
What do you mean the the 74 series chip is slow ?  how slow here i have a CMOS chip CD4060 with a 13.4Mhz chip it's fast I found this
in looking for 432hz multiples up to 1.3 mhz region, even a 4011 will clap away at 15mhz easy all with a 8volt power rail, you might not be so lucky
 with if using older stock.

This old bulb of Nick's they remind me of some of the old junk that worked of DC from years a go now you can get them in hard ware stores allover.
I was called a Beretta voltage dropper. I had a knowledgeable grandfather if any ones asking.



AG
That scopeshot is "scope abuse". Your signal is so clipped that the risetime measurement is likely bogus. Please repeat the test with the entire signal on the screen vertically, not clipped.
The DS1054Z does not respond well when its input preamps are overloaded.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 21, 2018, 08:47:24 PM
thanks for reply. what the number of quartz ?
For that test I used a 3.579545 MHz crystal. I have tested the circuit at up to over 18 MHz.

Quote
is output must be shorted together ?thanks
What? I don't understand what you mean. No, the output is not shorted together, what makes you think that?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 21, 2018, 08:57:32 PM
   AG:   Well, it's not an old bulb , it's an LED. 40 watt equivalent. Gives the warm golden white light like the older incandescent bulbs. I love that type of light. It's not all sparkly, like normal LEDs. :-[ I just wish that it would light it off of capacitance. But it does light well off of just a one wire transfer. So it might work for the diode loop. We'll see...
 As far as which schematic to build up for the crystal oscillator. I still have not decided. But I would like to be able to switch the different crystals, for varying the frequency.   There are several videos on YouTube about crystal oscillators. Yet, they have to be able to use a 24v input to the oscillator input, to drive a FET, or transistor, and be able to light some LEDs, and neon bulbs, brightly. Like I'm doing with my kacher circuit, already. Which can light even a 100w bulb, partially.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 21, 2018, 09:04:27 PM
What do you mean the the 74 series chip is slow ?  how slow here i have a CMOS chip CD4060 with a 13.4Mhz chip it's fast I found this
in looking for 432hz multiples up to 1.3 mhz region, even a 4011 will clap away at 15mhz easy all with a 8volt power rail, you might not be so lucky
 with if using older stock.

This old bulb of Nick's they remind me of some of the old junk that worked of DC from years a go now you can get them in hard ware stores allover.
I was called a Beretta voltage dropper. I had a knowledgeable grandfather if any ones asking.



AG
I used a 74C14 which is not fast enough for 18 MHz . I might have some 74AC14 chips somewhere, which have a much faster risetime (otoo 10 ns) which may allow operation at higher frequencies. Pain in butt to change the chip though because of the way I mounted it. Oh well.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 21, 2018, 09:57:42 PM
I used a 74C14 which is not fast enough for 18 MHz . I might have some 74AC14 chips somewhere, which have a much faster risetime (otoo 10 ns) which may allow operation at higher frequencies. Pain in butt to change the chip though because of the way I mounted it. Oh well.
Thought I would try it with a 16 or 20 Mhz to see where it fell over but no it still works and a 27mhz surely not but no it still works, TI for you
with an 8v line  8) well well well 3 oil holes in the ground, that is fast :o ;D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 21, 2018, 10:54:33 PM
Come on AG, your measurements are NOT VALID if your signal exceeds the screen vertically! You are likely overloading your input preamps and you are clipping an unknown amount of data above and below what the screen shows.

To get a valid risetime measurement the scope has to see the FULL vertical span of the signal IN THE SCREEN DISPLAY. Otherwise how can it determine the 10%-90% points to measure the risetime?

But OK, you are oscillating at some high frequency. Do the tops and bottoms of your pulses look flat without ringing or over/undershoot? Impossible to tell due to your scope abuse.


But anyhow your point is well taken. If you want to use the SCO with an output buffer, don't use the 74C14 unless you are also using low (below 5MHz) frequencies.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 22, 2018, 12:25:39 AM
No 27mhz is pushing it a bit it's more like a sign wave on pin 10.  this pic is 1.68Mhz (1.687500mhz) out of pin 7 Q4
If they have done this to a 4060 i would like to see what they have done to a 4046 !
Title: Magic at 13.56 MHz
Post by: Lidmotor on June 22, 2018, 12:32:24 AM
All--- I tried that simple crystal oscillator circuit out with a 13.56 MHz crystal and it was pretty spectacular.  I ran it on a 9v battery and changed the 1K feed resistor to a 1000uH choke.  Here is the video of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqsVQPLXi3E

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 22, 2018, 12:56:42 AM
I changed the 74C04 for a 74AC04 and that speeded it up considerably. Fast enough transitions now to cause considerable overshoot and ringing. I pulled the ground clip off the scope probe and used the little spring thing for ground instead and that cut down a lot of the ringing on the trace. (High Frequency scopologists take note.)
But of course now I'm limited to 5.5 V input, in contrast to the "C" version.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 22, 2018, 01:07:46 AM
Lidmotor - classic line of the day, in a good way:
Quote
The magic comes out of the woodwork
That's a very neat change to the circuit, having the 1000uH instead of a resistor.
I have a 13.5225 2 pin and it's as dead as an Icelandic rhinoceros for wireless output.
So, without an inductance meter I need to wind an exact Dr. Stiffler L3. Then presumably take a turn off, add a turn, until all the magic springs forth.


TK -  Your drive though should still be fine for switching an amplifier stage ?
It's good to know which ones are indeed speedy enough. Most of my chips are 1980's, so am missing more modern variants.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 22, 2018, 01:21:41 AM
Lidmotor - classic line of the day, in a good way:That's a very neat change to the circuit, having the 1000uH instead of a resistor.
I have a 13.5225 2 pin and it's as dead as an Icelandic rhinoceros for wireless output.
So, without an inductance meter I need to wind an exact Dr. Stiffler L3. Then presumably take a turn off, add a turn, until all the magic springs forth.


TK -  Your drive though should still be fine for switching an amplifier stage ?
It's good to know which ones are indeed speedy enough. Most of my chips are 1980's, so am missing more modern variants.
Yes, I think I'll try to drive a highspeed mosfet driver with it. If that works out, then I'll arrange a higher voltage supply for a mosfet as the final output stage.
Title: Re: Magic at 13.56 MHz
Post by: TinselKoala on June 22, 2018, 04:40:18 AM
All--- I tried that simple crystal oscillator circuit out with a 13.56 MHz crystal and it was pretty spectacular.  I ran it on a 9v battery and changed the 1K feed resistor to a 1000uH choke.  Here is the video of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqsVQPLXi3E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqsVQPLXi3E)

--Lidmotor
That's pretty spectacular all right.

I can't run mine at 9v because of the 74ac04 output buffer. But at 3 volts and 6.5 mA I can at least light up one little LED with the single wire from a random spool-end "coil" of wire.

And when I short out the AV plug diodes the LED goes out of course and the current drain goes down to 5.1 mA. Does this mean lighting the LED only takes 1.4 mA?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 22, 2018, 05:16:45 AM
Well there must be some power used by the circuit and one might think the crystal would use some...so try taking the crystal out.
 ;)
That's what I did, along with changing the 1K resistor to a 1000uH axial inductor, following Lidmotor's lead.

Ladies and gents, we have a new Exciter circuit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE4uvw1JBb0
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 22, 2018, 05:49:16 AM
The crystal frequency is divided by 2. This gives is the resonance for L1.
The SEC 18 board comes with a chart for about a hundred of these series.
When the board is working correctly it is in the negative resistance oscillator mode.
there are three diodes that protects the transistor from being destroyed.
Now that the board is running switch off the crystal and use the spectrum analyzer
for final adjustment if any then the whole series is shown. They will agree with
Doctor Stiffler's video showing SA with all the harmonics. It is classed
as an ultra wide band capable of 500 Mhz. One demonstration shows large battery
being charged, the unit was drawing 200 micro amps.

The crystal oscillators can output to a remote location using an old TV coax.
Remember the 7490 can do different divisions. Most of these transformer applications apply to
center tap transformers sometime we use 2 l3 coils but also useful on slayers.
https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/text/chapter-6
The crystal generator allows the frequency generator to be free to use as the need arises.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 22, 2018, 06:38:02 AM
uV - That's a very interesting point about the frequency being halved.
The WTF Exciter stands for What's The Frequency ? a play on letters of course but relating to the thing having no crystal.
So what frequency is it running at ?
It turns out, that it's running at approx 6.67MHz-6.72MHz, as detected with the sniffer coil.
Doubled, that is 13.34MHz to 13.44MHz...very close to the range being looked for.
I may have all that backwards or upside down, but it intrigued when thinking about what you wrote and I wanted to find out the frequency anyway.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 22, 2018, 09:16:19 AM
Well there must be some power used by the circuit and one might think the crystal would use some...so try taking the crystal out.
 ;)
That's what I did, along with changing the 1K resistor to a 1000uH axial inductor, following Lidmotor's lead.

Ladies and gents, we have a new Exciter circuit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE4uvw1JBb0
Hi slider thanks for share. is this point in the blow picture must be connected together ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: shylo on June 22, 2018, 10:42:24 AM
Hi All,Very interesting stuff, I'm not sure of the proper term for the load on that coil that Lidmotor moves around and lights the four led's, but thequestion I have is can you make several of those and they will all work at the same intensity?If yes ,can the led's be replaced with a cap?So if you had 20 of those ,could the now charged caps be used to drive the original circuit?Great work thanks for sharing.artv
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 22, 2018, 04:32:01 PM
erfandl - Yes, that point is connected. I should have put a dot really to denote.

shylo - Most often the answer is yes, to a point. Those 4 may be the max but quite often another could be made and they all have that intensity. Then if a 3rd such load is made, all 12 LED's would dim down by a noticeable amount. Quite often there are demo's of a bank of say 40 LED's all glowing brightly from an Exciter, the thing being that number 41 may begin the dip. It's about the amount of RF being utilised and a maximum draw point that affects all loads.
I like the idea of the caps...unused energies could periodically dump with some kind of zener circuit (as sometimes seen on Bedini SSG's) back to the input. It would then work as a harvester if tuned to that max RF usage point.


I tried the WTF (What's The Frequency ?) Exciter up to 20V last night.
It does best at 12V for noticeable improvements, being able to use the Doc's clip lead technique to gain a large area of field energy.
Today is going to be about changing the 'L3' for better running of the DT mains bulb and looking into how much of a frequency change can be derived from that coil with different turns amounts.
Another will be made as a fresh build, using a replaceable axial inductor too.
Interestingly, at the moment this circuit sits between several other Exciter circuits for initial frequency range. SWES and other pancakes tend to run at about 500kHz, Slayers tend to run at around 2MHz, this one is at 6.7MHz, then we have the Doc's 13.6MHz. 
I also think the LED in the feedback to the Base of the transistor will function similarly to the indicator of field strength LED of Slayer Exciters. At 12V it's always on and might vary with tunings. But one function is that it's protecting the Base with the light output.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 22, 2018, 08:26:14 PM
slider, since batteries slowly go down we specify builders many times get hung up on less obvious.
It does demonstrate crystal oscillator used when there is no signal generator around.
Someone building wtf might review feedback so it becomes obvious:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/oscillator/colpitts.html
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 23, 2018, 12:42:18 AM
All----I hooked up my crystal circuit to a scope today to verify that I was at the right frequency and wave form.  I am.  When I get my function generator in the mail it should produce similar results ---I guess.  Hooking that up to the tail end of mt setup should light up some leds. We will see.
  Dr. Stiffler made a comment on my last video and stated that the exact frequency is 13.6 but that I was close enough at 13.56MHz.  My cheap computer O- scope showed a good sine wave signal from 13.4 to 13.7 MHz.  The spectrum analyzer function showed a tall spike at 13.5 which looked very familiar and was what I was hoping for.

   Here is what my scope showed me today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95knDhEHZI

Cheers,  Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 23, 2018, 01:52:25 AM
   Lidmotor, Slider, and All.
   Great to see some advancements toward the Docs project on our forum.   Also good to hear the the Doc was able to relay the message about the 13.6MHz (magic frequency).
   I think that you've also verified to some degree, that the exact tuning of both your crystal oscillator frequency (13MHz), as well
as the L3 coil have to be in sink. At the same or a harmonic frequency of the 13.6MHz, or there's no cigar.   
And also that when the circuit is in tune, no ferrite is needed. Nor clip leads to increase gain.
And, any where the circuit is touched with a finger, only dims the output, by possibly changing the running frequencies.
   Anyways, good work Lidmotor, and Slider.
   It's seams best to replicate the Docs circuit ideas,  as closely as possible.
   Hopefully I'll be able to get my act in gear, soon.   
   My main concern is to see what gives with this circuit and its various interactions. And, to see if there's OU, or not.
And to see if a higher input yields a higher output. I imagine the size of these small coils are one limiting factor, but, who knows.   Also, to see if and how this circuit can be looped, to self run. Which is my main aim. As I think that it can be possible to do.
   
   BTW: Lidmotor, would you be so kind as to unwind that SEC L3 coil, and tell us the exact amount of turns, and wire size etz....   Just kidding...    But, I have been looking for that info, for a while now.  So, if there's anyone out there that knows about the L3 coil specs, please let us know.                       
                             NickZ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 23, 2018, 10:05:57 AM
before the crystal circuit parts received, I testing the extracted LED from the filamnet light. driving the LED with a super joule thief circuit and a 2.7 volt 500 farad supercap. the LED is running for 30 min
Tomorrow testing with crystal circuit and share the result.  :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 23, 2018, 02:48:48 PM
i'm using a 13.5 mhz crystal (approx) and a smd 1.mh choke, the home made L3 is about 22uh but if i shuve a ferrite bar down it's center
it peeks at 49.1 uh. see pic.

I dont have a HF SG but I do have a 74hc4046 on a bread board it will do 35mhz easy, i have optimized it for 3 to 20 Mhz
I get another peek at just over 6mhz no spike, I use the scope as freq count'r.  8)

Lidmotoor In his video i cant see where he is getting the spike from on his waveform  my Rigol doesn't show it.

PS current draw is 17ma at 10.3 volts, what's all the fun about in this circuit ? free energy, only for the power greed minions !
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 23, 2018, 07:31:10 PM
I designed a small Colpitts 6.7 Mhz it draws 2 mA.
The intended to be used with 6.7 Mhz crystal then a doubler 2nd stage.

Title: 13.56 MHz and RFID
Post by: Lidmotor on June 23, 2018, 09:04:49 PM
All---I am getting a lot of feedback comments on my videos dealing with the 13.56 crystal circuit.  It has led to a spin off research into this frequency,  the effects on different things such as water, and the use of this 13.56 MHz in the RDIF industry.  This might be a grand dead end chase down a rabbit hole but it is very interesting. 
  Slider mentioned the low cost RDIF items available on EBay so I tool a look and found these receiver coils that are tuned for 13.56MHz.  Can we do anything with them?  They don't cost much.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-13-56MHZ-Seal-core-chip-FM1108-S50-Read-and-write-chips-15MM-1443A/122163389735?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D44040%26meid%3Dd190a8a914be4dceb252bd42f35325b2%26pid%3D100752%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D122163552094%26itm%3D122163389735&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982

-----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 23, 2018, 09:27:53 PM
Looks like Stefan hasn't solved the images thing, following the board maintenance message...oops.

uV - I believe the Doc started off with a Colpitts, then refined and refined.
My SEC 18-1 should be shipping by Monday and can't wait to see what a real one does !

Lidmoter - Most definitely, in my opinion. For one thing, with a very efficient circuit we could build our
own readers into watches or as a cellphone accessory etc.
There was some discussion a while ago about tracking rodents in a house and a circuit could have a loop
that tagged mice/rats/things would run through. The tags are cheap enough to log each creature and its
movements. Another use would be for a power supply for example. Put a tag on the object to be powered
and fit the circuit to the power supply. As the device is brought close to the power supply, the tag is read
and its number is used to set the output voltage and current.

Related to some of that RFID talk is something within my latest video upload.
A credit card styled Stiffler loop, that has a 360 degree ability for wireless energy pickup.
What i've done is to rework the WTF Exciter to not need the clipleads and now uses 3 coils.
It's edging toward understanding and building something more similar to Dr. Stiffler's circuits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkyUqHY-weM
(5min 23sec running time)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on June 23, 2018, 10:46:08 PM
https://www.banggood.com/XR2206-Function-Signal-Generator-DIY-Kit-Sine-Triangle-Square-Output-1HZ-1MHZ-p-1206339.html?p=SX311721977410201805&cur_warehouse=CN
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 24, 2018, 03:22:41 AM
I designed a small Colpitts 6.7 Mhz it draws 2 mA.
The intended to be used with 6.7 Mhz crystal then a doubler 2nd stage.

   Mikrovolt:   Did you make the circuit, or are planing to?    I would think that that would be a better way to go, as it has a feed back circuit.
    Let us know how it goes.
                                              NickZ
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 24, 2018, 06:02:19 AM
NickZ, Thanks for the reply.  and everyone I started with this low power version. It is not at a practical oscillator at 2mA. It needs the crystal section
and enough filter to produce a sufficiently clean sine wave. The J310 may be a better choice. The final may need to do more than light a 20 mA led
or higher. i replaced the aluminum blocks with sheet metal same dimensions as it is surface area.

I remind everyone that 13.5 Mhz can cause unwanted noise, the 22 meter club will not appreciate qrm so steering to 13.4 into coax to maintain
a quiescent resonance in circular wave requires finding how many mA and what turn on voltage ?  So an adjustable 13.4 is easier
for a ring coax having a quiescent input, a higher voltage input a port for doing work and circulating with minimal destructive interference.

I will build this board hopefully, it up converts ICL8038 and certain parts of the vlf for sdr rtl.
http://wb9kzy.com/lfconv.htm
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 24, 2018, 03:35:11 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

In your video you showed yesterday on water electrolysis you said the MPSA06 transistor
(or a 2N2222) in the 13.56 MHz crystal  oscillator circuit is stone cold and that is not normal.
And normally these transistors in the Doc's SEC circuits get warm and need the use of a heat sink,
while in a Slayer exciter the transistor would be even blown without a heat sink.
The reason I write is that there is explanation why the transistors in the crystal oscillator circuit
you use cannot get warm and there is no any extraordinary (or magic) in that.
Data sheet https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MPSA05-D.PDF (https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MPSA05-D.PDF) for the MPSA06 says the
DC current gain (hFE) is a minimum of 100, typically 150 to 200. The 100 kOhm base resistor from the 12V battery
biases the base-emitter diode with roughly I=12V/100kOhm= 0.12 mA (a simplified calculation).
This base current would establish a maximum of 200 times 0.12 mA = 24 mA DC collector current if your transistor
had indeed a hFE of 200.
For any hFE lower than 200 the collector current would be proportionally less, for a hFE=100 the collector
current would be only 12 mADC. From the AC collector current point of view, there is the 1 mH choke coil in
the collector which limits the 13.56 MHz current. The inductive reactance of 1 mH at 13.56 MHz is around
85 kOhm so the AC components of the collector current does not influence the DC collector current too much,
the heat dissipation is governed mainly by the value of DC bias resistor (100 kOhm) and the individual transistors
hFE values.
These all mean the transistor is not driven hard at all, total DC input power is roughly 12V*24mA = 288 mW
in the worst case if hFE is around 200 for your transistor.

For a SEC circuit the coil in the collector has but a few uH inductance which cannot limit AC collector current
significantly and there is the series LC circuit between the base-emitter which mainly control the base hence
the collector current AC wise, and there are many harmonics besides the main oscillating frequency.
These mean the collector current may swing up to the 100-200 mA range and with a 18V supply voltage
this can already cause much higher dissipation for the transistor, calling for heat sink.

In the Slayer oscillator the few turn primary also represents a relatively low value collector impedance, this cannot
reduce AC collector current significantly so high peak currents may flow during the oscillations. Confront this with
SkyWatcher's recent Slayer exciter circuit (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522636/#msg522636) where he used 80 turns for the primary coil instead of the few turns,
so the collector impedance must have been much higher than for the few turns case, not letting peak currents go skyhigh.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 24, 2018, 05:19:28 PM
   Gyula:   I tried to make an L3 coil, similar to what the Doc is using. But, it won't oscillate. It may have a few less turns than his, so I'll add as some more turns today, to see if it will kick on. I'm still using my previously shown Tesla coil, and Kacher circuit.
   
   Here is an interesting video about the filament led bulbs. Some can produce 1000 lumins, at a very low input. 
 https://youtu.be/UD0-K2ZS0yY?t=76 (https://youtu.be/UD0-K2ZS0yY?t=76)
       We still need to work out, if these tests can provide for OU, or can be looped, or not. Because, if not, we are all just pissing into the wind. And if it's just saving us few mAs, that by itself is not very exciting.   I have been asking myself, does the Stiffler loop actually do anything. And is any gain therefrom worth the effort.
   On his last video, he needs to show what happens when the diode loop is replaced with just a simple clip lead.
I'll bet it works the same, as with the diode loop. As it's just providing a ground return path, to help close the circuit.   Or not?   
    Dr. Stifler's latest video.
   https://youtu.be/r2d9-44TIlg (https://youtu.be/r2d9-44TIlg)   He mentions more to come. Well, I would hope so.
   
Title: Crystal Circuit Exciter
Post by: Lidmotor on June 24, 2018, 08:13:58 PM
Gyula --- Thanks for the engineering analysis of what is going on in this crystal circuit exciter that I am working with.  There is one mistake in your calculations though and it is probably my fault for not being clear about things.  I replaced the 1K resistor with a 1000uH choke that has only 4 ohms resistance.  That is why I thought the transistor should get hot.  I have worked with these exciter circuits for years in a 'tinkerer' way rather than an engineering way.  I just thought that things were a bit odd based on what I have observed in past experiments.  This is all probably totally normal and that is good news.  Learning how things work is a good thing.  Thanks for the help.

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 24, 2018, 08:33:10 PM
I found an easy circuit uses a heavy bare copper wire. the coil has 16 turns on an 1.5 inch diameter
and 1.5 inch long. Those interested it is 6.9 uH tapped at 1/5 it is adjusted by stretching or
compressing slightly. a parallel tank is made with 6.9 uH and 82 pF.

As you would expect tapping at 1/5 simple oscillator is the hartley.
Title: class E amplifier calculator
Post by: Lidmotor on June 24, 2018, 09:46:41 PM
All-- I found this site that shows a simple class E amplifier circuit including a calculator for determining component values.  The circuit reminds me of what I am working with now.  If you open end the load and use the capacitive link back ----it might run like an 'exciter'.  The driver would be a signal generator or maybe one of these crystal circuits we are using.

http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~dxt103/calculators/class-e.php

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 24, 2018, 11:05:34 PM
Will take a look at that circuit Lidmotor too...


Here's an odd one.
I've built another 3 Coil Exciter and it does the usual things, except in one area. An AV plug doesn't work !
Of all the testing methods for wireless output, the AV plug is the firm tried tested known method of knowing that you have a wireless field.
I had tried 2x 1N4148 diodes to the Base of the transistor but that didn't produce any improvements, however a variable capacitor across the L2 removed the need for any ferrite and works great for tuning.
Could it be that the variable capacitor has fundamentally changed something ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to6OQD6RAbg
(2 mins 58secs)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 24, 2018, 11:32:44 PM
Hi Nick,

Yes, a good approach to make an L3 coil can be to change the number of turns. In the comments section of Lidmotor's youtube videos he hinted at the size for L3 as "Take a AA battery, roll hard paper around it and tape it, wind up 26 Ga magnet wire on it end to end, take the battery out to make the air core coil, and that should do it." 
But if L3 was assigned to work in the original SEC circuit at around 13.5 MHz or so, and your xtal frequency is also at 13.5 MHz (and not your Tesla secondary driven by your Katcher circuit), then you could wind with less number of turns first to have the air coil self resonant frequency surely higher than 13.5 MHz. Then insert a small piece of ferrit into the coil to increase inductance hence lower its resonant frequency or use a small variable air capacitor of 20-30 pF in parallel with the coil also to lower its resonant frequency (but this latter tuning method would be very hard to accomplish due to hand capacitance).
Of course, you need to have the LED circuit attached to L3 capacitively or as needed, I mean a loaded L3 condition while tuning for resonance.But with your Tesla coil driving an L3 in the range of 0.8 to 2 or 3 MHz range, the above coil size is not good because lower frequencies need mechanically higher sized coils, you surely know this.  In this case, to approach a close hit, the single layer air coil calculator can help which gives the coil calculated self resonant frequrncy too.

Re your pondering on these tests whether they provide OU or could be looped: I do not know.  My opinion is that LED lamps presently have less conversion efficiency than 100% (light output versus DC input) and till this situation is not improved beyond 100% by advanced LED development, such circuits has no chance for OU.  Notice that for looping (as I see looping) you need a device (like say a solar cell) to convert light to electricity and such device also has less than 100% conversion efficiency, at the present state of art.

I think that any improvement that yields a decrease in input current is a step forward in a good direction, though I understand this may not be exciting for you. Afterall, we strive for OU and a certain amount of reduction in a given input power may not always be an attractive feature in cases like this.  (electricity to light conversion and vice versa)

For the time being, I agree that the diode loop as shown connected by the Doc in his latest video you refer to has the role of a small antenna, a capacitive load to the output of the AV plug so a 30-40 cm long piece of wire attached would have very similar effect on the brightness the diode loop shows on it.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 25, 2018, 12:46:43 AM

Hi Lidmotor,

Okay on your explanation, and indeed this is all normal circuit behaviour. We need to be clear on such circuits operation as much as possible. 
I just read someone's comment under your video: "Cool setup (bad pun, sorry). Aside from the transistor effect, it's fun to see electrolysis driven wirelessly." 
you see strange deductions start developing immediately like "transistor effect", very likely induced by your 'stone cold transistor' notice. There is simply no transistor effect. 
And as you observed and also commented under the video to someone else later, I quote: "the transistor temperature did warm up slightly. You could barely tell with touch but there was a slight increase in temperature." end of quote That small temperature increase came from the 288 mW I estimated above as total input power and part of this was dissipated in the transistor. 

You wrote: "Learning how things work is a good thing.  Thanks for the help."  Well, thanks also and you are welcome.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 25, 2018, 12:55:31 AM
Hi Slider,

I would say the followings:
Using a small value 5-15 pF tuning capacitor may confine resonant energy within the thus formed L2C resonant tank much better than the self capacitance formed earlier between the adjacent turns (the tuning capacitance contains higher electrical energy than the coil self capacitance simply because it has higher capacity). This way the capacitive "displacement current" ruling earlier on the surface of the coil becomes much less when the tuning cap is attached, so electric field leakage also becomes less. The overall effect of this may be still a partial and relatively small cause though, I guess.

Another change is the natural reducement in resonant frequency to 10.1 MHz for L2 and I wonder if you retuned coil L3 to 10.1 MHz too?  If not, then this situation the single wire connection of L3 to L2 and also the close mutual magnetic coupling and detuned resonances between them may cause such strange change in electric field distribution alongside the coils. (AV plugs respond to RF voltages.)

You may say that the AV plug on the pick-up coil with the ferrit rod at that say 20 cm distance still indicates the presence of the fields as before.  But that coil has many turns and the ferrit rod in it to be able collect 'juice' just enough to light that single LED attached to it, while there is not enough field for the small piece of wire feeding the AV plug in your hand, mainly due to a detuned situation I think.  Anyway, my 2 cent...  :)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 25, 2018, 01:27:42 AM
Many thanks Gyula...am grateful for your help.
It would be fantastic to tune up these coils by some electronic means, but I don't know how. Much more a case of try it, see, adjust turns, see again, replace coil and onward.
What has been noted, is that with some coil combinations, the scope shows 2 waves, 1 smaller than the other and out of sync. Those are rubbish. Matching the outputs is essential for the best final output. Kinda obvious, but good to see it verified on the screen.
10.1MHz is actually an increase over the 9MHz that I thought was the limit.
With 1 set of coils the frequency was 17.8MHz, but there was barely a glow from any load LED.
I'd like to know what combination of coils will hit 13.6MHz and that can be the final resting spot for the design.
Higher than 1000uH for L1 makes the circuit quit. Lower than 150uH does the same.
L2 has a small effect on frequency (may have a lot of effect in transferral to L3).
L3 seems to rule the frequency, but, it has to be a Goldilocks coil. Fine windings of many turns are rubbish, few windings gives that same result. 
Really though, it's not a strong wireless output anyway, just a study in 3 coil systems and perhaps partially along Dr. Stiffler's research path many moons ago.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: plengo on June 25, 2018, 01:43:23 AM
Can any one explain why the 13.6 mhz? Is this magical or just a consequence of the self-resonance of L3?


I am not able to replicate this. Should I buy the crystal?


Fausto.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 25, 2018, 02:37:01 AM
   Guys:   Sounds like we are hot on the trail...   The issue at hand is that the crystal oscillator is not strong enough by itself to do much, other than light a single led bulb. Cree or otherwise. So, something has to change there. The second thing is that having to use an expensive, or not so expensive SG, is not something practical for most of us. Therefore, what is the solution???
   I think that we need to build an oscillator, crystal or otherwise, that will do the job. It looks like both the oscillator frequency needs to be exactly the same as the oscillator frequency. Perhaps the 13.5MHz has something special to offer, or maybe not. But, it does look like the Doc has found the magic sweet spot, for his tuned circuits at that frequency. Otherwise, there won't be any "extra juice" available. And much less, something to get really excited about, like OU, or even self running. I think that Doc needs some help there, from those interested. To go beyond lighting an led by capacitance using a SG.
   So, how do we go about tuning a coil to the exact same frequency as the oscillator frequency. And how do we build a strong enough oscillator circuit, that can output over 20v, to provide the needed input of the L3 coil? And also, be controlled to produce the needed 13.5MHz. And can have the needed gain to do more than what we have already seen. That is my question.   

   Gyula, thanks for your help, much appreciated.
As most of us are just simple experimenters, and not RF or electronic specialists.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 25, 2018, 02:51:49 AM
^ what he said

That's what i'm thinking too.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 25, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
Fausto---  Here is where I got my 2 pin 13.5MHz crystals.  For $2 shipping included you get 10 of them.  The down side is that they come from China.  It took two weeks for mine to arrive in California which wasn't too bad.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10pcs-Authentic-line-of-quartz-crystal-HC-49S-crystal-resonator-20ppm-13-5MHZ-13/32571317213.html

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: iQuest on June 25, 2018, 11:19:09 AM
Good work guys!  This is my first post here so it may be a bit long and be delayed in getting posted due to newbie review requirement.  I would first like to note that I appreciate the
constructive comments that are posted here and the work being shared.  The different paths being explored provide a good learning experience and all are headed in a very interesting
direction.  Thanks guys, really appreciate these efforts which include technical feedback, research, and the parts search that is being done by all.  A special thanks to Dr. Stiffler for
posting more thought provoking videos which provide helpful tips, hints and insights.

Slider:  You will have maximum voltage magnification when the open end of the L3 coil is the antinode (Vmax) of a 1/4 standing wave pattern at the same time that the L3 coil is
resonating at its srf.  I think that in your latest video, where the AV plug LED is brightest at the side of the L3 coil, you are demonstrating a way to find the 1/4 wavelength antinode. 
You should be able to confirm this by shortening the length of the wire of that L3 coil, as you shorten it the brightest AV LED location should move towards the open end of the L3 coil
wire.  And you should be able to make some adjustment to the L3 srf by adjusting the distance between L2 and L3.  Easier said than done, but I think best results will be obtained when
L3 is resonating at its srf while generating a 1/4 standing wave pattern (1/4 wave resonator).  If you go to the following link and set the Red and Blue Wavelength to 20m it will display
a 1/4 wavelength animation.  The Magenta standing wave at the bottom displays the sum of the Red and Blue waves, the right end represents the open end of your L3 coil wire.  If
you set the Red and Blue Wavelength to 15m you will see that the standing wave Vmax moves away from the end, which is what I think you are now showing on your L3 coil.  This
animation simulates two open ends but it was the best adjustable superposition of two transverse waves traveling in opposite directions that I found:  http://ophysics.com/w3.html

Lidmotor:  Good job modifying the crystal testing circuit to achieve that great result of brightly lighting up those LEDs mounted on an aluminum plate.  The tuning of your L3 coil
to the crystal frequency appears to be right on.  When needed, an alternative to ferrite rod tuning would be to connect an aluminum mass to the point where your L3 coil connects to
your crystal circuit output or (+) and adjust the distance between it and the L3 coil.  May need to experiment to find the best place to connect this mass in your circuit but this is a
method used by Dr. Stiffler when he tuned his PSEC.  You obtain better Q-factor and greater efficiency with an air core coil so this method may help obtain better results when you
need to tune the L3 coil, this may also help Slider's L3 srf tuning on his circuit.

TK:  Really like the crystal oscillator with 74AC04 circuit that you built and the scope shots you showed us, also liked your mention of maybe trying to drive a high speed MOSFET driver
and a higher voltage supply for a MOSFET as the final output stage.  Your scope shots and your comments about them are always very instructive and I'm looking forward to the direction
that you may be headed.  Maybe a low power auto-resonating circuit with antenna feedback triggering can be designed for this application, similar to this great working and auto-resonating
TinselKoil X that you demonstrated a year ago:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV3posVDqJs
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 25, 2018, 12:41:22 PM
Hi Fausto,

I think if you go through some papers by Dr Stiffler, you can get closer to his way of thinking.  Perhaps start with this paper here (8 pages):
http://lust-for-life.org/Lust-For-Life/_Textual/RonaldRStiffler__AnEfficientMethodForDrivingLEDArraysFromASpatialEnergyCoherenceExciter_8pp/RonaldRStiffler__AnEfficientMethodForDrivingLEDArraysFromASpatialEnergyCoherenceExciter_8pp.pdf (http://lust-for-life.org/Lust-For-Life/_Textual/RonaldRStiffler__AnEfficientMethodForDrivingLEDArraysFromASpatialEnergyCoherenceExciter_8pp/RonaldRStiffler__AnEfficientMethodForDrivingLEDArraysFromASpatialEnergyCoherenceExciter_8pp.pdf)

and also see these attachments here: https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg511862/#msg511862 (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg511862/#msg511862)

Now why the 13.6 MHz (or perhaps 13.4 to 13.6 MHz) ?

 It comes from the Doc's theory on Spatial Energy Coherence...  and L3 is deliberately designed to have self resonance at that frequency (notice the resonance should be achieved under the loaded condition in a full setup).


Some useful links on his circuits others here may find useful too:  http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SECDrivers.htm.html (http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SECDrivers.htm.html)
http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SECExciter.htm.html (http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SECExciter.htm.html)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 25, 2018, 10:31:52 PM
I showed several tank circuits so that building is possible either BJT or mosfet big or small for ease of building.
today I will give some values related to matching up impedance with the digital signal generator. More specifically
coils that work with crystals and the AD9850. Not to be confused with building an amplifier stage for boosting SG.
I am giving you a way to make a proto type platform instead of messing directly with digital SG such as 2n2222A
http://telecnatron.com/articles/Variable-Gain-Amplifier-For-AD9850-DDS/index.html

The L3 has an impedance of 849 ohms designated by the letter Z. The L1 new design became the 10uH wound
on the sewing bobbin. Because the SEC exciter operates as a negative resistance exciter it takes advantage of the
reverse region of the IV curve. Also operating includes capacitive coupling taking into effect the open system even
wireless in some cases. 13.6 is not really magic. We identify the series on the spectrum analyzer because the first
harmonic we subtract some and so on. Changing the Ca and Cb values that the doctor calculated for the
SEC negative resistance demonstrates another  workable frequency. This 13.4 helps keep us out of trouble
it works good also. The latest revise documentation for SEC will make much of this clearer for those working with it.
The combination of many things contributes to the performance (not really magic)

I am posting crystal and oscillator tank values. I am posting the calculator links so you can plug in values and the
impedance might become second nature. I think the easiest is working smartley with the hartley. (getting tiny, coils .125 dia )
in this way the crystal circuit will be same impedance as the AD9850  better chance everyone gets the same results
when they match will improve overall project goals. Also working the crystal circuit rather than AD9850 and other SGs
will not get damaged in the process of boosting output.

tank for 13.4 Mhz 117 pF and 1.2 uH z=100 ohm    L= .125 in. dia, 44T #28 .6 in long hope you can plug in these values

These are the on line calculators I used to derive these values:
http://www.pronine.ca/lcf.htm
http://crystalradio.net/professorcoyle/professorcoylecyl.shtml

Quotation from Von Braun:
Can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet, it is so perfectly known through its effects
that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements.
What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a
Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive Him?
In letter to California State board of Education (14 September 1972)



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 26, 2018, 05:27:12 AM
Lots of great links and many thanks to all !

iQuest - Great to see you have posted. Am presently going through yours and uV's advice and hopefully others are getting more familiar with what makes these exciters different to other designs.

uV - A very good amplifier and excellent description of its operation in that link. I've saved the circuit diagram and intend to build it by the time the replacement AD9850 arrives. Have to find a JFET for one thing.
As you say though, driving possibly overloading experimental apparatus is best done with the crystal circuit. My derivation 3 coil exciter will be continued with because of those thoughts...its MPSA18 can blow up and not take a couple of minutes to replace...not the same with the AD9850 and especially not this one as it's on its way from China ! The original order was pricier because it was a fast Amazon delivery.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 09:23:21 AM
Hi all. today the parts received. I build the 13.56 mhz circuit but it cannot be working ! the transistor is MPSA18. is problem from coil ? the coil is from tesla musical module

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on June 26, 2018, 09:28:59 AM
How much volts do you use
where is the 1000 uH coil
and for what you use 1 K ohm resistor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 09:59:08 AM
How much volts do you use
where is the 1000 uH coil
and for what you use 1 K ohm resistor
I use 12 volt. below schematic use 1 kohm resistor

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on June 26, 2018, 11:17:20 AM
Watch Lidmotor on youtube lidmotor use 1000 uH to make it working
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 26, 2018, 11:21:45 AM
Erfandi

Hi looking at your coil i must say it looks like a low frequency Tesla coil, you mention it is from an audible Tesla application.
I think the reason you might be getting nothing is because the coils natural frequency is cutting off in the audio range,
if you used a SG and a scope you would be able to see this phenomena on the scope screen, can I suggest you re wind it
as per L3 characteristics.

Hope this helps.

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 11:43:59 AM
Erfandi

Hi looking at your coil i must say it looks like a low frequency Tesla coil, you mention it is from an audible Tesla application.
I think the reason you might be getting nothing is because the coils natural frequency is cutting off in the audio range,
if you used a SG and a scope you would be able to see this phenomena on the scope screen, can I suggest you re wind it
as per L3 characteristics.

Hope this helps.

AG
thanks for reply. ok I want to make my own L3 coil how many turn is good ? 80 ?
thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 11:46:28 AM
Hi erfandl

Please remove the crystal, connect the 12V supply and measure DC voltage with a voltmeter
between negative supply and transistor base and
between negative supply and transistor collector.

Then plug in the crystal and check again the above voltages. Also, switch voltmeter to AC mode
and check the above voltages whether it indicates anything. If it displays total zero in AC mode, then
the crystal may be faulty.  Of course an oscilloscope set to DC coupled input would be the best to check
the voltages, if you have one.
With the DC voltages you find we can decide more.

Yes, the coil may have a much different self resonant frequency than 13.56 MHz and by the look of the coil it may have a self resonant frequency already below 13.56 MHz.  But this must come later, first thing is to check theoscillator works or not.   The use of a choke coil in the collector instead of 1 kOhm may also help crystal oscillation  if the crystal is not that active.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 12:55:31 PM
Hi erfandl,

Regarding the coil, you could make some taps on your coil as I sketched in the photo below.

Perhaps you could cut the wire at BC, DE, FG and HI winding places (I know it is not easy) and separate the ends so that windings A to B,  C to D,  E to F,  G to H and I to J would remain next to each other with say a single turn gap between each. 

With such taps, when all the wire ends are floating in the air, you could test several coils individually or combining the adjacent windings in series connection to find the 13.56 MHz resonance or near to it.

Obviously, for a continuously variable coil, a wiper (like in a variable potmeter) sliding on the top surface of the total winding coil length-wise and connecting to the scrapped winding surface would be the best and you can approximate this with the taps.

If your chosen coil section, say, has a higher self resonance frequency than 13.56 MHz, then a small piece of ferrite rod could be inserted to fine tune the coil and get more info.  Unfortunately, the moment you connect the LEDs or an AV plug or anything as a load to the end of the coil,  then these surely detune the coil towards a lower resonant frequency due to the capacitive loading.  The presence of the unused windings next to the used ones may also detune the used coil but this is but a small detuning effect.


If you use a choke coil instead of the 1 kOhm in the collector, you can use any coil which has at least 47 uH inductance or higher.  A 47 uH coil has about 4 kOhm inductive reactance at 13.56 MHz.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on June 26, 2018, 02:48:40 PM
Guyula

Hi yes 47uh works fine for me, 47uh is a lot of turns on a air core I used some tube from a hardware store 12mm dia with 12mm of 28 swg
and a ferrite rod inside to tune it, from an old wall clock 'radio clock'. works a treat.

Re synth I used some CD4522 down counters (3) from a CD4046 that way i can dial in 432khz or any rep of it up to 1mhz, to get 1khz a CD4060 and a 4,096 xtal, next time I will try a CD4059 (SMD  :D).

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 03:34:09 PM
thanks all for helping. I did not find the 1000 uh inductor from local stores. is any repalcement for this ?

gyulasun - do you mean using 1kohm resistor with 47 uh inductor as coil ?

thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 04:00:29 PM
Hi erfandl,
I mean use 47 uH choke coil instead of the 1 kOhm collector resistor (or instead of 1000 uH choke).   You can even make such choke by winding at least 40-50 turns of enameled wire into a toroidal core or ferrite bead, found in discarded PC power supplies or in PC monitors mains supply etc
Have you checked the DC voltages?
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 04:39:33 PM
Hi erfandl,
I mean use 47 uH choke coil instead of the 1 kOhm collector resistor (or instead of 1000 uH choke).   You can even make such choke by winding at least 40-50 turns of enameled wire into a toroidal core or ferrite bead, found in discarded PC power supplies or in PC monitors mains supply etc
Have you checked the DC voltages?
Gyula
thanks for reply. OK I understand. I checked the voltage the base voltage is 0.675 volt and collector voltage is 2.352
and a question I have a 1000 uh choke like below picture can I use that ?

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 04:58:06 PM
Yes, you can use it.   Thanks for the DC voltage values.   Did you find any mV in AC voltage mode? I know that voltage meters are useful at 50-60 Hz sinusoidal frequencies but some ten mV to some 100 mV indication in AC mode could be expected from them if the oscillator works. Compare the AC voltages when the crystal is removed versus when in place.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 05:26:07 PM
Yes, you can use it.   Thanks for the DC voltage values.   Did you find any mV in AC voltage mode? I know that voltage meters are useful at 50-60 Hz sinusoidal frequencies but some ten mV to some 100 mV indication in AC mode could be expected from them if the oscillator works. Compare the AC voltages when the crystal is removed versus when in place.
thanks. I used that 1000 uh coil. the AC voltage from supply ground and tesla coil about 7 volt and frequency is 900 hertz.
I build the below circuit and its working like a charm with tesla musical coil. but I dont know why the crystal circuit cannot be working :(

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 07:26:18 PM
Well, please do not connect the air coil to the collector of the crystal oscillator circuit, ok? Just check the AC voltage between the negative ground and the base and between the negative ground and collector, first without the crystal and then with the crystal in place,  ok? Check this with the 1 kOhm resistor too and also with the 1000 uH choke instead of the 1 kOhm.

Your mesured DC voltage of 0.675 V between the base and emitter that is correct and the collector voltage of 2.35 V versus the emitter is also good when the 1 kOhm collector resistance is used but ideally 6 V DC would be the best value there if your supply voltage is 12 V. You could use a 470 kOhm trimmer potmeter (or a 220 kOhm in series with the 100 kOhm resistor) to adjust the 6 V DC between the collector-emitter when the crystal and the coil is removed and you have the 1 kOhm collector resistor instead of the choke coil. The 6 V DC level would insure the transistor is biased for the most linear operational point and oscillating signal would have the least distortion.

You do not have a oscilloscope but a digital multimeter, is this so?  Do you have a function or signal generator, even with a low level output?
Title: Crystal Circuit Exciter
Post by: Lidmotor on June 26, 2018, 07:53:59 PM
 :DAll ---I did a video explaining this crystal circuit exciter build better and specifically how I am making that air core coil.  I just wrap stiff paper on a AA battery, wrap the length of the battery with 26ga magnet wire, take the battery out,  and that is it.  I don't count the turns or measure the inductance.  A ferrite rod moved in and out does the fine tuning.  The coil is based on Dr. Stiffler's SEC 18 'L3' but is longer. 
  I soldered up a replication of the initial bread board version taking care to put the components on the board in about the same location.  It worked fine but the device is sensitive capacitive influence.  Tuning is a bit touchy. 
   I show the second unit driving the first unit wirelessly here:
   
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJhdZNIUOiI

Cheers,
            Lidmotor

PS----Gyula I think your idea about using a 'wiper' style coil for tuning like in a simple Crystal Radio might work.  I might try that today.  As far as the 1000mh choke I did get mine to run on different values and styles so building your own should not be a problem.  The dynamic of these open ended exciters goes beyond a simple running oscillator and EVERTHING in the local area has some effect on it -- including the human sitting in front of it.  The types of components and their position in relationship to each other matter.  I was very worried that I was not going to replicate my original bread board setup because of the capacitance in the bread board itself.  I got lucky.  It is like all the things in the local are talking to one  other when the thing pops into resonance.  In the above video I could tune the whole area in and out of resonance but tuning the second unit that was driving the pulse motor.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 26, 2018, 07:59:14 PM
Well, please do not connect the air coil to the collector of the crystal oscillator circuit, ok? Just check the AC voltage between the negative ground and the base and between the negative ground and collector, first without the crystal and then with the crystal in place,  ok? Check this with the 1 kOhm resistor too and also with the 1000 uH choke instead of the 1 kOhm.

Your mesured DC voltage of 0.675 V between the base and emitter that is correct and the collector voltage of 2.35 V versus the emitter is also good when the 1 kOhm collector resistance is used but ideally 6 V DC would be the best value there if your supply voltage is 12 V. You could use a 470 kOhm trimmer potmeter (or a 220 kOhm in series with the 100 kOhm resistor) to adjust the 6 V DC between the collector-emitter when the crystal and the coil is removed and you have the 1 kOhm collector resistor instead of the choke coil. The 6 V DC level would insure the transistor is biased for the most linear operational point and oscillating signal would have the least distortion.

You do not have a oscilloscope but a digital multimeter, is this so?  Do you have a function or signal generator, even with a low level output?
thanks so much for reply. OK :D. no I don't have oscilloscope and signal generator or function :(
the AC voltage report:

0.018 base voltage with 1000 uh and with crystal
0.476  colector voltage with 1000 uh and with crystal
0 base voltage with 1000 uh and no crystal
0.476 colector voltage with 1000 uh and no crystal ( the voltage randomly go to 0.000 and go to 0.476 )

0 base voltage with 1kohm resistor and with crystal
0.004 collector voltage with 1kohm and with crystal
0 base voltage with 1kohm resistor and no crystal
0 collector voltage with 1kohm resistor and no crystal
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 09:07:52 PM
Thanks for the report.  It looks like your crystal oscillator works and it works better with the choke coil than with the 1 kOhm resistor in the collector which is okay.  Now just use the choke coil and you can focus on making the air coil resonant at 13.56 MHz.
Member Lidmotor's above video shows a coil construction to approach resonance at 13.56 MHz when the coil is loaded and tuned with a ferrite rod.   Notice that with ferrite tuning you reduce the air core coil resonance frequency (it is like you would increase the number of turns),
Gyula
Title: Gyula's coil idea
Post by: Lidmotor on June 26, 2018, 09:20:17 PM
Gyula--- I think your 'wiper coil' is a really good idea.  What you just mentioned about the ferrite rod basically increasing the number of turns on the coil was very helpful.  All we have to do is build a longer coil and use the wiper method to find the correct length.  The ferrite rod could still be used (if necessary) for fine tuning.  Thanks a lot for that idea.  Here is crystal radio coil like that.  It is too big but it is the same idea.  ---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 26, 2018, 09:24:56 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

Regarding the "wiper style" coil tuning, perhaps the main thing to care for is not to short circuit adjacent turns with the wiper, this may involve the use of a little distance between the turns when winding the coil. This distance may be insured by using two wires while winding as the insurance for keeping the gap between the turns. The second wire may be left unused. OF course better methods can surely be followed, maybe making 3 or 4 short air coil section with say 15-20 turn for each and mount them on a common bobbin in a slide-able fashion.
While I was writing this you posted the above picture and that is ok too. 

Gyula
Title: Wiper coil for crystal circuit exciter
Post by: Lidmotor on June 27, 2018, 01:38:08 AM
Gyula -----I made one of those wiper coils for the crystal circuit and it worked.  It is very touchy because of how we are using it.  If you get your hand near it that changes the local capacitance which throw things off.  You have to adjust it in small increments then get away from it to see what happens.  Fine tuning can be done with a ferrite rod if you need to. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZjAKK38UIA

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on June 27, 2018, 03:23:15 AM
There are all kinds of ways to tune a coil set. One of my favorite ways is the "variometer".
The inner coil is connected in series with the outer coil, through the pivots. The inner coil can be rotated all the way around on the conductive pivots. The effect is like adding or subtracting the number of turns of the inner coil, or anywhere in between.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 27, 2018, 04:51:03 AM
TK - If the outer was 25+25 turns and the inner was 25+25 turns, would that give a 50-100 turn range of the pivot ?


Here was a surprise....
I went back to the original 2 pin crystal circuit, with the Lidmotor 1000uH axial inductor.
The idea was to try the crystal radio wiper idea, with a florists wire (steel) coil that seemed to resonate at a very low 2.4MHz.
However, before doing that, I wondered if the lower value crystals might see it improve performance as they went lower.
In fact, a 10.1MHz works the best.
It cleared the 12" ruler I was using for pickup distance AND it runs a neon at 9V very well.

Somebody's going to get plasma out of these things at some point  ;D

Update: 16" with a PC heatsink on the receiver coil :)
Title: Re: Crystal Circuit Exciter
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 08:07:18 AM
:DAll ---I did a video explaining this crystal circuit exciter build better and specifically how I am making that air core coil.  I just wrap stiff paper on a AA battery, wrap the length of the battery with 26ga magnet wire, take the battery out,  and that is it.  I don't count the turns or measure the inductance.  A ferrite rod moved in and out does the fine tuning.  The coil is based on Dr. Stiffler's SEC 18 'L3' but is longer. 
  I soldered up a replication of the initial bread board version taking care to put the components on the board in about the same location.  It worked fine but the device is sensitive capacitive influence.  Tuning is a bit touchy. 
   I show the second unit driving the first unit wirelessly here:
   
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJhdZNIUOiI

Cheers,
            Lidmotor

PS----Gyula I think your idea about using a 'wiper' style coil for tuning like in a simple Crystal Radio might work.  I might try that today.  As far as the 1000mh choke I did get mine to run on different values and styles so building your own should not be a problem.  The dynamic of these open ended exciters goes beyond a simple running oscillator and EVERTHING in the local area has some effect on it -- including the human sitting in front of it.  The types of components and their position in relationship to each other matter.  I was very worried that I was not going to replicate my original bread board setup because of the capacitance in the bread board itself.  I got lucky.  It is like all the things in the local are talking to one  other when the thing pops into resonance.  In the above video I could tune the whole area in and out of resonance but tuning the second unit that was driving the pulse motor.
Hi lidmotor thanks for sharing your circuit. the number of coil info in the circuit is Illegible. whats that number ?
thanks

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 09:12:58 AM
Thanks for the report.  It looks like your crystal oscillator works and it works better with the choke coil than with the 1 kOhm resistor in the collector which is okay.  Now just use the choke coil and you can focus on making the air coil resonant at 13.56 MHz.
Member Lidmotor's above video shows a coil construction to approach resonance at 13.56 MHz when the coil is loaded and tuned with a ferrite rod.   Notice that with ferrite tuning you reduce the air core coil resonance frequency (it is like you would increase the number of turns),
Gyula
thanks. today I build the coil from lidmotor video. I buying a new 13.56 mhz crystal but yet the circuit cannot be working :( the ferite rod nothing doing when insert it in coil.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 09:48:53 AM
Hi Erfandl,

Would like to ask what is your indicator for seeing whether the oscillator works or not, with this new coil?

Do you have an AV diode plug connected to the free end of the air coil and the diodes feed a LED?
You can use such "sniffer" AV plug holding in your hand like Slider shows in his above picture. It should indicate also at the collector in itself if you touch the common diodes point of the AV plug to the collector.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 27, 2018, 10:09:18 AM
With SEC 18 boards on the bench we recall the FFT or spec analyzer is used to see the what harmonics show and where they go.
This video shows a signal generator and how the various different species of waves spread out. Getting used to and understanding
the frequency domain is part of understanding the Doctor's work. Then we have something to compare the pattern and frequencies
of the SEC when adjusting capacitive coupling; led back planes, Stiffler loops and such.

https://youtu.be/wZoGWvYUl7Y

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 10:13:58 AM
What you ask from Lidmotor's drawing on the coil dimensions:
the first one is  5/8" =  0.625" = 15.8 mm        the outside diameter of the bobbin hence roughly the coil

the next one is 2 1/4" (two and a quarter) = 2.25"  = 57.1 mm    roughly  the length of the winding

the third one at the bottom you ask is the word 'shape'   i.e.  'AA battery' shape paper tube
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 27, 2018, 10:22:38 AM
thanks. today I build the coil from lidmotor video. I buying a new 13.56 mhz crystal but yet the circuit cannot be working :( the ferite rod nothing doing when insert it in coil.

erlandl,

are you sure your bottom lead of the 100K resistor is attached to the base (middle) leg of the transistor?   
On the pictures it looks like its attached to the ground/emitter part of the circuit.


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 10:33:31 AM
erlandl,

are you sure your bottom lead of the 100K resistor is attached to the base (middle) leg of the transistor?   
On the pictures it looks like its attached to the ground/emitter part of the circuit.


Itsu
yes that's connected to the base ( middle leg )
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 10:45:12 AM
Hi Erfandl,

Would like to ask what is your indicator for seeing whether the oscillator works or not, with this new coil?

Do you have an AV diode plug connected to the free end of the air coil and the diodes feed a LED?
You can use such "sniffer" AV plug holding in your hand like Slider shows in his above picture. It should indicate also at the collector in itself if you touch the common diodes point of the AV plug to the collector.
Gyula
thanks gyula. Im do it and LED is turning on. but cannot turning an 4 watt LED like lidmotor

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 10:51:14 AM
Okay, very good.   Do you have to use the ferrite rod for fine tuning to get the brightness you show now?  Is this the maximum brightness you can get?  Try to use several such white LEDs in series too. 


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 27, 2018, 11:14:18 AM

All,

i was looking into getting the x-tal oscillator to be able to supply over 20Vpp at 13.56Mhz.
I build the shown x-tal oscillator using a 13.56MHz x-tal and it works OK, then used the by
TK mentioned SN74AC14 to buffer/clean up the signal which shows a nice DC square wave like signal.

The problem however is to boost this 5Vpp 13.56MHz signal.
A normally used MOSFET driver will not cut it, my highspeed IXDN614CI works fine with a 4Mhz
X-tal, but fails to be stable at 13.56MHz (IXDN614 rise/fall times = 25/18ns).

RF version MOSFET drivers are very expensive.

Then i used a BJT totem pole setup as driver using BC547 and BC557 transistors and shows
promising results but when attaching a MOSFET (IRF840) the signal sags till some noisy ripples
unable to open the MOSFET.

So it will be a challenge to boost the 13.56MHz x-tal signal so its useable to drive the L3 coil
and CREE like leds board/diodes to full light.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 11:17:52 AM
Okay, very good.   Do you have to use the ferrite rod for fine tuning to get the brightness you show now?  Is this the maximum brightness you can get?  Try to use several such white LEDs in series too.
Hmm. thanks for helping me in this project. I solved the problem with a 1000 uh Barrel inductor. the 7 watt LED have a good brightness at 9 volt @ 67.6 mAh - 608.4 mW

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 02:18:19 PM
Hi Itsu,

I have pondered on this and the first thing would be to utilize resonant voltage increase of tuned LC circuits right already in the xtal oscillator itself as a first step.
I mean to place a tapped LC circuit into the collector of the xtal oscillator to step up the 13.56 MHz signal to as high as possible with such transformation.  See this LC circuit how I mean:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522125/#msg522125  The oscillator circuit can remain the same you have now, just remove the 1 kOHm or the choke coil from the collector and insert the LC tank there.  The L coil here could be wound on an RF toroidal core you may have from Amidon to have high Q for the tank. 

Another possibility is to use the air core coil itself (called here as L3) to step up resonantly the 13.56 MHz collector current to a relatively 'high' voltage. See this sketch here:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522451/#msg522451 
 What I mean here is this: coil wire #1 would go directly to supply voltage positive and coil tap #2 would go directly to the collector of the transistor. The air core coil should also resonate at 13.56 MHz,  basically this is very similar to the previous tapped LC tank suggestion, just the C is supplied by the air coil self capacitance and by the capacitive load the AV plug will represent with the LEDs too.  This latter 'autotransformer' is more difficult to tune to resonance than the LC tank on the toroid, due to the fully open L air coil.
If these resonant RF voltage up-transformer methods prove useless in the end, then we can ponder on further solutions...   8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 02:26:20 PM
Hmm. thanks for helping me in this project. I solved the problem with a 1000 uh Barrel inductor. the 7 watt LED have a good brightness at 9 volt @ 67.6 mAh - 608.4 mW

Hi Erfandl,
Very good progress!  It is good to suspect the behaviour of choke coils and now you chose a good type for the job.  Some adjustments you can still make would be to use a 100k or 220 kOHm trimmer potmeter to replace the 100 kOhm base resistor and adjust for the best brightness possible by that too.   Make sure to connect at least a 10 kOhm resistor in series with the trimmer potmeter to prevent excess base current when the potmeter is approaching to the very low resistance values, ok?  Try to wrap up the transistor body into a heat sink like metal cylinder to help conduct heat away from it.

A question: I cannot see it clearly from your picture: Do you have a ferrite rod in the coil now?

Gyula
PS The battery symbol is lit on the display of your DMM, it needs changing soon.   ::)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 02:52:58 PM
Hi Erfandl,
Very good progress!  It is good to suspect the behaviour of choke coils and now you chose a good type for the job.  Some adjustments you can still make would be to use a 100k or 220 kOHm trimmer potmeter to replace the 100 kOhm base resistor and adjust for the best brightness possible by that too.   Make sure to connect at least a 10 kOhm resistor in series with the trimmer potmeter to prevent excess base current when the potmeter is approaching to the very low resistance values, ok?  Try to wrap up the transistor body into a heat sink like metal cylinder to help conduct heat away from it.

A question: I cannot see it clearly from your picture: Do you have a ferrite rod in the coil now?

Gyula
PS The battery symbol is lit on the display of your DMM, it needs changing soon.   ::)
thanks. OK I will order the 100k and 220k trimmer for testing and share the result when received. yes I used ferrite rod in the coil. Unfortunately, I do not have an oscilloscope that measures the coil frequency :( if I had an oscilloscope, the result would be better than that   :'(
eh I didn't even notice the battery symbol  ;D thanks for reminder
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 03:07:04 PM
You need not order both trimmer pots, only say the 220 kOhm and a 10 kOhm resistor you put in series with it.

Regarding the ferrite rod, I suggest to use more turns for the coil to make self inductance higher in itself so that the ferrite rod should not be needed to plug into the coil fully or even half way: just a little, say  only 2-3 mm to get the highest brigtness. I mention this because at 13-14 MHz, good quality ferrite material is needed, otherwise losses are inherently introduced into the coil and brightness suffers. Unless you are fully aware of your ferrite specifications, manufactured for the 10-20 MHz range. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 03:14:53 PM
You need not order both trimmer pots, only say the 220 kOhm and a 10 kOhm resistor you put in series with it.

Regarding the ferrite rod, I suggest to use more turns for the coil to make self inductance higher in itself so that the ferrite rod should not be needed to plug into the coil fully or even half way: just a little, say  only 2-3 mm to get the highest brigtness. I mention this because at 13-14 MHz, good quality ferrite material is needed, otherwise losses are inherently introduced into the coil and brightness suffers. Unless you are fully aware of your ferrite specifications, manufactured for the 10-20 MHz range. 

Gyula
OK thanks. Yes, I'm just 2mm of ferrite core into the coil not all.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 27, 2018, 06:01:26 PM
Just another +1 of congrats erfandl..that must have been a frustrating journey.
But now, that light output is well worth it and surpasses my own efforts with the Dollar Tree bulb easily.
I need a different bulb  ;D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 27, 2018, 06:29:48 PM
Just another +1 of congrats erfandl..that must have been a frustrating journey.
But now, that light output is well worth it and surpasses my own efforts with the Dollar Tree bulb easily.
I need a different bulb  ;D
thanks slider  ;D
I test the lidmotor circuit from this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJhdZNIUOiI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJhdZNIUOiI) ) with 4 watt LEDs extracted from fillament light. the result is better than the first crystal circuit. the diodes is Germanium gold bonded AA119

voltage is 12 volt @ 51.5 mAh - 618mW

thanks to lidmotor and Gyula  ;)
Title: Re: Wiper coil for crystal circuit exciter
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 06:50:38 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

Nice build for the "wiper" coil and it is unfortunate that it makes tuning very touchy (albeit it was expected due to the always huge field strength around the mainly air core coil). 
Maybe a 40-50 cm long piece of thread (yarn) kinked to the end of the wiper rod would reduce hand closeness by pulling the wiper with the thread...  ;D

Just a sidenote but not important: you wrote Energetic forum in the text under the video: I mentioned this here at overunity forum. But again, do not bother, no problem.

Thanks, Gyula



Gyula -----I made one of those wiper coils for the crystal circuit and it worked.  It is very touchy because of how we are using it.  If you get your hand near it that changes the local capacitance which throw things off.  You have to adjust it in small increments then get away from it to see what happens.  Fine tuning can be done with a ferrite rod if you need to. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZjAKK38UIA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZjAKK38UIA)

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 27, 2018, 08:08:56 PM
Great news...
I persisted with the 10.1MHz crystal, but built it again on a breadboard to test some ideas.
The 'range' is now 2ft 4" or 711mm  :o
How ? the simple addition of what we would normally do with a Slayer Exciter - add a reverse polarity LED from Emitter to Base !
It can now partially run a neon without holding it (AV plug is partly blocking it in the pic below) and power a couple more loads, while not affecting that resonant condition for the distance extension.
The LED also allows a simple check that the circuit is on and the crystal is sitting correctly in its holder.
Transistor being used is a 'lowly' C945, in comparison to the MPSA06, 2N2222A, MPSA18, C3198 and other known good exciter transistors.

Thoughts then turned to how Lidmotor ran one 13.56MHz circuit from another and I wanted to find 10MHz crystals. Went out to the shed and found what I think was a Ham radio or CB junker board back in the 80's. It has loads of slightly different 10MHz crystals !

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 27, 2018, 10:34:25 PM
Hi Itsu,

I have pondered on this and the first thing would be to utilize resonant voltage increase of tuned LC circuits right already in the xtal oscillator itself as a first step.
I mean to place a tapped LC circuit into the collector of the xtal oscillator to step up the 13.56 MHz signal to as high as possible with such transformation.  See this LC circuit how I mean:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522125/#msg522125 (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522125/#msg522125)  The oscillator circuit can remain the same you have now, just remove the 1 kOHm or the choke coil from the collector and insert the LC tank there.  The L coil here could be wound on an RF toroidal core you may have from Amidon to have high Q for the tank. 


Another possibility is to use the air core coil itself (called here as L3) to step up resonantly the 13.56 MHz collector current to a relatively 'high' voltage. See this sketch here:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522451/#msg522451 (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522451/#msg522451) 
 What I mean here is this: coil wire #1 would go directly to supply voltage positive and coil tap #2 would go directly to the collector of the transistor. The air core coil should also resonate at 13.56 MHz,  basically this is very similar to the previous tapped LC tank suggestion, just the C is supplied by the air coil self capacitance and by the capacitive load the AV plug will represent with the LEDs too.  This latter 'autotransformer' is more difficult to tune to resonance than the LC tank on the toroid, due to the fully open L air coil.
If these resonant RF voltage up-transformer methods prove useless in the end, then we can ponder on further solutions...   8)
Gyula

Gyula,

i tried the part in bold above, which seems to work, see screenshot of my oscillator signal.
For the LC tank circuit i used an amidon T200-2 toroid with 26 turns (1mm wire) and a 30pF trimmer cap.

The tap to the collector etc. is 2 turns from the 12V entry point, a 100nF cap is on the output.

The downside is that with this signal the transistor is getting hot quickly.
I put a 5K trimmer pot in the 12V supply line to the tank, which regulates the output (down)

The SN74AC14, the 5V regulator, the BJT totem pole and the MOSFET (IRF840) on the breadboard are not used in this setup!

I probably need to retune the Tank to be more in resonance on 13.56Mhz (it was out of the circuit).
Itsu   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 27, 2018, 11:25:35 PM
Hi Itsu,

Very good, thanks for your efforts.  Here are some refinements if I may, to get a 'nicer' waveform and perhaps less heat for the transistor.

May I suggest to reduce the number of turns from 26 to only 18 and make a tap at 4 turns?

From this link http://toroids.info/T200-2.php (http://toroids.info/T200-2.php)  the AL value is about 12 for this core and 26 turns gives 8.1 uH while we need only around 4 uH, this is approached by 18 turns to get 3.8 uH. I mention this because the scope probe may have 15 pF and your 30 pF trimmer cap is turned fully out, very likely an even smaller than 15 pF overall tuning cap would be needed to tune the tank to resonance with the present 26 turns.  Notice that you may have to retune the trimmer cap when connecting an air coil  via a single wire.

And raising the number of turns for the tap from 2 to 4 would increase collector impedance, hence less AC collector current could flow, reducing dissipation. This may involve less peak to peak RF voltage across the tank due to the smaller transformation ratio, maybe an acceptable compromise.
But anyway, now you have roughly 50-55 Vpp voltage across the relatively high LC tank impedance and this would drive an air core coil (tuned also to 13.56 MHz) via a single wire nicely I suppose.  Then the resonant air core coil may have an even higher oscillating amplitude to feed a 230V LED via AV plug (maybe you do not have a 120 V LED). Try to connect (at least) two-two 1N4148 diodes in series to increase their reverse voltage rating.

A question: what is actual DC voltage feeding the oscillator? (due to the voltage drop across the 5 k trimmer pot)
Edit: if you have an L meter, please check the 26 turns inductance., to learn about reality.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 28, 2018, 12:52:58 AM
Slider --- I started using your idea for a power supply and it works great for this project.  That really helped see what happens when you raise the voltage on the crystal circuit.

erfandl----Congratulations on the replication.  It looks good. 

Gyula --- I really like this new 'Wiper Coil' idea.  It works great and might be improved in several ways so it can be adjusted easier.

Here is the video of the adjustable boost power supply in action.  I'm using a 3.7v 18650 battery and running the circuit at 15v.  Lots of light now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JDng6iCkZA

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 28, 2018, 01:34:33 AM
Ah great !
Am finding it to be really flexible and better than presuming a batt voltage or constantly measuring for comparisons as a battery discharges.



The SEC 18-1 has arrived !
Have done an unboxing video and first power up test  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_6dVHGeVoY
(4 mins)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 28, 2018, 10:44:09 AM
Hi Itsu,

Very good, thanks for your efforts.  Here are some refinements if I may, to get a 'nicer' waveform and perhaps less heat for the transistor.

May I suggest to reduce the number of turns from 26 to only 18 and make a tap at 4 turns?

From this link http://toroids.info/T200-2.php (http://toroids.info/T200-2.php)  the AL value is about 12 for this core and 26 turns gives 8.1 uH while we need only around 4 uH, this is approached by 18 turns to get 3.8 uH. I mention this because the scope probe may have 15 pF and your 30 pF trimmer cap is turned fully out, very likely an even smaller than 15 pF overall tuning cap would be needed to tune the tank to resonance with the present 26 turns.  Notice that you may have to retune the trimmer cap when connecting an air coil  via a single wire.

And raising the number of turns for the tap from 2 to 4 would increase collector impedance, hence less AC collector current could flow, reducing dissipation. This may involve less peak to peak RF voltage across the tank due to the smaller transformation ratio, maybe an acceptable compromise.
But anyway, now you have roughly 50-55 Vpp voltage across the relatively high LC tank impedance and this would drive an air core coil (tuned also to 13.56 MHz) via a single wire nicely I suppose.  Then the resonant air core coil may have an even higher oscillating amplitude to feed a 230V LED via AV plug (maybe you do not have a 120 V LED). Try to connect (at least) two-two 1N4148 diodes in series to increase their reverse voltage rating.

A question: what is actual DC voltage feeding the oscillator? (due to the voltage drop across the 5 k trimmer pot)
Edit: if you have an L meter, please check the 26 turns inductance., to learn about reality.

Thanks, Gyula

Gyula

My agilent U1733C LCR meter shows 8.28uH @ 100KHz for the 26 turn coil, so your link is smack on.
The trimmer cap measures 4-23pF and was set at minimum (4pF), my probe is a 8pF type.

As i wanted to show off i turned the 5K trimmer pot all the way down (0 Ohm) so the voltage used
was from the battery meaning 12.4V.

I will remove some turns and go to 18 turns with a tap at 4.
I do only have some 230V leds here.

Thanks,   itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 28, 2018, 11:53:01 AM
Hi Slider,

It is worth visiting your shed once in a while, you have a plethora of exotic components for sure.  ;D
The other crystals with 37600 labels on them are surely overtone ones and their base frequency is either 1/3  i.e. 12533.3 kHz or maybe 1/5  i.e. 7520 khz you can plug them into the oscillator circuit and check with the oscilloscope.
Now that you received SEC 18-1, new fun begins.   


Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 28, 2018, 12:16:52 PM
good idea with boost converter. I used LTC1871 boost converter module with a 3.7 volt polymer battery.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 28, 2018, 07:33:08 PM
Gyula - LOL !
I repeated your comment about the shed to my wife and she said "Wouldn't surprise me if you found the Ark of the Covenant in there one day".
Most of it was useful stuff found during Minnesota Clean Up Weeks before we moved here to OK, literally picked up off the streets.
Then, a guy dropped off 4 plastic large tubs of stripped electronics, he had been after any precious metals and copper. That trash was my gold and still is, several years later.

erfandl - It's so good to see another one of those running  :D

There are displays for similar low cost that have the voltage and current on them and may be an upgrade route.
This one is similar, can't find the exact one that I have:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC0-100V-100A-50A-10A-LED-DC-Dual-Display-Digital-Voltage-Current-Meter-Hea-T3E4/183170385950
For a built-in setup where the screen is actually on the booster, such a screen would be on the output and would allow the measuring of current...something which I know Lidmotor has had troubles with and might hopefully be a fix.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 28, 2018, 07:35:20 PM
erfandl and All-----I was able to get this 'Crystal Circuit Exciter' to stay running at 20 volts (the voltage Dr. Stiffler used on his signal generator experiments).  The led array I am using came on super bright.  At that brightness be careful about looking directly at it.  I saw spots after doing this experiment.  Here is the short video of this thing at 20v.  The camera dimmed the light appearance down.  It is much brighter than it appears here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW4RqHaZa-Q

--Lidmotor

PS---Slider I just ordered one of those voltage AND amperage meters off EBay.  We need to know the wattage or this experiment is somewhat meaningless.  The field 'excitation' messes with the electronic meters though and I really don't trust them.  Measuring the voltage drop across a resistor is a better way.  I will say this ---- That little MPSA06 didn't blow up producing a huge amount of light.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 28, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
Lidmotor - will likely mod mine to have the voltage and current meter.
It may be that a good distance away and using something like coax to connect to the circuit would be the way to measure.
Quick tip: do you have the plastic bulb part still from a bulb that got disassembled ?
Put that over the LED's and it should allow for looking at the output. Also would work well for output comparisons to a mains driven version of a bulb.


Speaking of which.
Here's a pic of a Lowe's bought 9W bulbs innards, being driven at 12V with the SEC 18-1.
It's perhaps interesting because the bulb 'features' components on the actual board, as has been a problem with some replication attempts.
Connecting the L3 to the +/- with an AV plug works. Brightness increases with a clip lead.
The DT bulb also works great on the SEC, at certain points within the C1 var cap tuning range.
(there's a gap in the ring of LED's, because I accidentally Dremel'd right through it when taking it apart and had to jumper with a soldered wire).


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 28, 2018, 10:21:46 PM

Redid my tank circuit, now 18 turns and the tap on 4 turns from the 12V.
The 23pF trimmer cap is (with 8pF probe connected) set to a minimum value.

Connected up to the 100nF cap my L3 coil which is connected to the copper tape taped to
the alu backside of my 230V led strip with 2x 1N4148 diodes from plus to minus of the led strip.

The led strip now gives more light then it did with my FG (20Vpp).
Input voltage was 12V from a battery (5K pot on input all off (0 Ohm)).

The input was calculated by the scope to be 2.18W, see red trace / value.
(Blue is input voltage battery, green is input current battery, yellow is output at trimmer cap)


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 12:33:36 AM
Hi Itsu,

Very nice sinewave and huge peak to peak value across the tank, very good job with the LC tank, thanks for all your efforts.

Probably a 120V LED array would already give even higher brightness with this setup (I know you do not have and no problem).

Maybe the transistor is still warming up if the circuit is run for several minutes, a certain part of the 2.18 W input power surely heats it up. It is sure that playing with the tap position and use 5 or 6 turns for the tap can further improve the matching between the collector and the LC tank (hence the possibility of reducing dissipation), when L3 is also in place with its LED load, this is a dynamic interaction.  I just notice these, I am not asking you to refine this matching any further, what you have achieved is very fine already.

May I ask you to show the voltage waveform on the collector of the transistor with respect to the negative ground? I am curious where are the lower peaks of the collector voltage, how close they approach the negative rail? (please use DC coupling on the scope input)
You surely checked somehow whether coil L3 is fully in resonance at 13.56 MHz when the LED is attached? 

One more thing what may be interesting: whether there is a difference in brightness when you drive the same LED array in this same setup with the AV plug from the L3 coil and not with the back plate capacitive coupling? 

When driving the LEDs with the AV plug and you place a puffer capacitor across the DC output of the AV diodes (i.e. across the LED strip input), then the DC voltage could be measured, hence the AC voltage could be deduced at the top of L3 (I know the top of L3 is floating AC wise.)   A 22 or 47 uF 250V capacitor may be enough.
(I assume that in this present test shown in the photo the center point of the two AV plug diodes is floating, right?)

It is possible though that in the shown setup if you attach a short piece of wire to the center of the two diodes, or you simply touch it by finger, then the brightness may increase (similarly when the Doc shows this with a Alu mass touching the diodes point). 
If you recall the Doc showed the diodes common point was connected to the negative supply rail in one of his videos, when thhis LED array was simply placed very close to his L3 coil.  If you test the diodes point connection to the negative,  then the retuning of L3 may be needed because the capacitive coupling to the top of L3 would become higher, causing some resonance detuning in L3.  If this happens, you may need to remove 1 or 2 turns from L3. 
Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 29, 2018, 06:10:11 AM
All----I finally got my cheap function generator in the mail and got it to do a true replication of Dr. Stiffler's experiment.  The
Wiper Coil' I made was critical in getting this to work at 13MHz.  This effect does work at other frequencies depending on what coil you choose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCR3HoYeuCA

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 29, 2018, 08:57:44 AM
Hi Itsu,

Very nice sinewave and huge peak to peak value across the tank, very good job with the LC tank, thanks for all your efforts.

Probably a 120V LED array would already give even higher brightness with this setup (I know you do not have and no problem).

Maybe the transistor is still warming up if the circuit is run for several minutes, a certain part of the 2.18 W input power surely heats it up. It is sure that playing with the tap position and use 5 or 6 turns for the tap can further improve the matching between the collector and the LC tank (hence the possibility of reducing dissipation), when L3 is also in place with its LED load, this is a dynamic interaction.  I just notice these, I am not asking you to refine this matching any further, what you have achieved is very fine already.

May I ask you to show the voltage waveform on the collector of the transistor with respect to the negative ground? I am curious where are the lower peaks of the collector voltage, how close they approach the negative rail? (please use DC coupling on the scope input)
You surely checked somehow whether coil L3 is fully in resonance at 13.56 MHz when the LED is attached? 

One more thing what may be interesting: whether there is a difference in brightness when you drive the same LED array in this same setup with the AV plug from the L3 coil and not with the back plate capacitive coupling? 

When driving the LEDs with the AV plug and you place a puffer capacitor across the DC output of the AV diodes (i.e. across the LED strip input), then the DC voltage could be measured, hence the AC voltage could be deduced at the top of L3 (I know the top of L3 is floating AC wise.)   A 22 or 47 uF 250V capacitor may be enough.
(I assume that in this present test shown in the photo the center point of the two AV plug diodes is floating, right?)

It is possible though that in the shown setup if you attach a short piece of wire to the center of the two diodes, or you simply touch it by finger, then the brightness may increase (similarly when the Doc shows this with a Alu mass touching the diodes point). 
If you recall the Doc showed the diodes common point was connected to the negative supply rail in one of his videos, when thhis LED array was simply placed very close to his L3 coil.  If you test the diodes point connection to the negative,  then the retuning of L3 may be needed because the capacitive coupling to the top of L3 would become higher, causing some resonance detuning in L3.  If this happens, you may need to remove 1 or 2 turns from L3. 
Thanks,
Gyula

The L3 coil with leds attached resonates (using my FG red lead only) around 15Mhz, and with a
ferrite rod inside (slightly) i can adjust it to 13.5Mhz allthough the brightness of the leds gets less.

Doing this trick when attached to my tank does not work somehow, its a strange (for me) interaction, like
flipping a switch the leds flip on or off depending on the 5K pot setting (from 0 Ohm to higher,
then back to 0 Ohm) and/or the setting of the trimmer cap (different when using the probe or not).
I will need to add turns on my L3 coil to have it resonate (with the FG) at 13.5Mhz.

I did not use the AV-plug setup you mention up till now, only with the 2 diodes in a loop across the leds
plus/minus, but will try it.
The center point of the diodes is always floating, attaching a (V)ground does improve the brightness.

At the moment, the 5V regulator and the SN74AC14 etc. is still powered from the 12V, so that also needs
to be included into the 2.18W input, i will remove those items.
The transistor does heat up somewhat, but less then it did before the tank mod.

Will tinker around some more later today including showing the waveform of the collector to ground.

Itsu

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 10:30:50 AM
Hi Itsu,

To check the correct tuning of the toroidal tank, you could use say a 2-3 turn loose coupling coil wound on the toroid to monitor the amplitude on the oscilloscope when tuning the trimmer capacitor for maximum, this way you can remove the probe self capacitance from the tank and the tuning can be correct also for the collector-emitter waveform test.

I suspect when the 5 kOhm trimmer pot has a certain value other than full zero Ohm, the voltage drop across it changes hence the transistor matching to the tank (operational point) also changes when the loading effect of L3 appears at the collector as you tune L3 to resonance, this may cause what you find.  You may wish to use say only 5 - 7 V supply instead of the 12 V battery for a test to see whether this strange behavior develops then  (no 5 kOhm or just short circuit it).

Regarding the brigthness getting less when you tune L3 to 13.56 MHz from its own frequency of 15 MHz may indicate the ferrite is already a bit lossy at that frequency? (unless you know its specifications but this is minor issue at present)

Thanks for your kindness.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on June 29, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
erfandl and All-----I was able to get this 'Crystal Circuit Exciter' to stay running at 20 volts (the voltage Dr. Stiffler used on his signal generator experiments).  The led array I am using came on super bright.  At that brightness be careful about looking directly at it.  I saw spots after doing this experiment.  Here is the short video of this thing at 20v.  The camera dimmed the light appearance down.  It is much brighter than it appears here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW4RqHaZa-Q

--Lidmotor

PS---Slider I just ordered one of those voltage AND amperage meters off EBay.  We need to know the wattage or this experiment is somewhat meaningless.  The field 'excitation' messes with the electronic meters though and I really don't trust them.  Measuring the voltage drop across a resistor is a better way.  I will say this ---- That little MPSA06 didn't blow up producing a huge amount of light.  Interesting.
thanks lidmotor.OK I using an plastic part removed from LED light to protecting eyes
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: conradelektro on June 29, 2018, 01:00:10 PM
All----I finally got my cheap function generator in the mail and got it to do a true replication of Dr. Stiffler's experiment.  The
Wiper Coil' I made was critical in getting this to work at 13MHz.  This effect does work at other frequencies depending on what coil you choose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCR3HoYeuCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCR3HoYeuCA)

----Lidmotor

As I understand, the claim of Dr. Stiffler is that at 13,65 MHz some energy is sucked from the environment.

Looking at Lidmotors function generator test I make the following calculation:

A function generator usually is able to give a 2 Watt signal (10 Vpp through a 50 Ohm load --> 0.2 Ampere --> 2 Watt).

Lidmotor uses "an open circuit load" at which a function generator usually allows 20 Vpp. But also with an "open circuit load" it will not provide more than 2 Watt.

The calculated 2 Watt seem to be about right to produce the demonstrated LED brightness in Lidmotor's video.

One will have to look at the specs of Lidmotor's function generator to make a better calculation (look at the "amplitude characteristics" in the manual).

With an oscilloscope one could measure the true rms Voltage over a 50 Ohm resistor in series with the function generator output and also the phase angle, which would allow a calculation of the power fed to the coil. But will it work with a 50 Ohm resistor between the function generator output and the coil? If it does work one knows at least an upper bound of the energy going into the coil, which would be 2 Watt (or 4 Watt if one believes that the function generator can provide 4 Watt at 20 Vpp with an open circuit load). One could increase the series resistor to a 100 Ohm or even 1 K Ohm in order to arrive at lower upper bounds.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on June 29, 2018, 02:21:42 PM
Have someone looked into Stifflers "spatial resonant frequency" and how that can play into better ing performance?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 02:31:00 PM
Dear Conrad,

Would like to notice that 10 Vpp has an RMS value of 10/2.82 = 3.54 V and this dissipates  P=3.542/50= 0.25 W in a 50 Ohm resistor.   Your calculation: (10 Vpp through a 50 Ohm load --> 0.2 Ampere --> 2 Watt)
would be correct if you wrote or used 10 V RMS and not 10 Vpp, ok?  AND this calculation is valid for a single 50 Ohm resistor across which there is 3.54 Vrms voltage, ok?  For s generator case, see this:

Regarding the function generator, it surely has a 50 Ohm internal resistance across which the specified max 20 Vpp appears BUT this is an unloaded case. And notice that 20 Vpp has about  7 V RMS value.  If someone connects a 50 Ohm resistor across this generator output, the 20 Vpp becomes 10 Vpp only, hence 3.54 V RMS of course and dissipation in the attached 50 Ohm is 3.542 V/50=12.53/50 = 0.25 W  (and 0.25 W is dissipated in the internal resistance of the generator too). 

If a 50 Ohm generator has 20 V RMS across its output (i.e. 56.4 Vpp) and you load it down with 50 Ohm resistor, the dissipation in this resistor will be 2 W.  This is because the 20 V RMS becomes 10 V RMS across the output hence across the resistor you attached   (102V/50 = 2 W).

I agree with the rest of your post.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: conradelektro on June 29, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
Thank you Gyula!

Attached please find a revised estimate of an upper bound for the output energy from the function generator in Lidmotor's test.

It remains to estimate the energy dissipated in (coil  +  AV-plug  +  LEDs). But if it works with a 1 K external resistor R the output energy from the function generator would be less than 0,05 Watt which is for sure less than the LEDs need to shine brightly (49/1050 = about 0,05).

If the function generator test works with a 1 K Ohm external resistor, OU (or energy from the environment) is very likely. I am still very engaged in playing with stepper motors and gyroscopes, therefore I do not want to go into Stiffler-stuff. But Lidmotor could easily try some external resistors in his function generator tests.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 03:45:01 PM
Hi Conrad,
Yes, that is okay now. 

By the way, I believe this is the generator (FeelTech FY3200 series) Lidmotor uses and here is a good review on the generator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ-i6lOTT9k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ-i6lOTT9k)
and the user manual is here:
https://img.banggood.com/file/products/20170423222303FY3200S%20Series.pdf (https://img.banggood.com/file/products/20170423222303FY3200S%20Series.pdf)

A notice is needed when using say a 1 kOhm resistor in series with the output of a generator: at 13-14 MHz frequencies, the quality of a resistor does count because a 1 K resistor is simply not a 1 k resistor any more but can be less due to the combined effects of its own parasitic components like mainly self capacitance and inductance which may gradually shunt the resistor.  Carbon and maybe film resistor types or so called inductance-free resistors should be used when meaningful power measurements are to be made around 13.5 MHz. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 04:48:19 PM
Hi Lidmotor,

Thanks for showing the test with your nice generator at a different frequency than 13.56 MHz. I suspected such setup may give similar results at other frequencies too, see my opinion on this here https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522662/#msg522662 (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522662/#msg522662)  and here https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522415/#msg522415 (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg522415/#msg522415) 

These results do not rule out the views and findings Dr Stiffler holds or maintains on this setup of course, especially his finding that the P-N junction of LEDs can be excited by RF fields via a metal plate placed very closely behind them so that the junctions are capacitively excited. And the LEDs need to be connected in series and their circuit should be closed by two diodes to let current flow happen.

Gyula


All----I finally got my cheap function generator in the mail and got it to do a true replication of Dr. Stiffler's experiment.  The
Wiper Coil' I made was critical in getting this to work at 13MHz.  This effect does work at other frequencies depending on what coil you choose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCR3HoYeuCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCR3HoYeuCA)

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 29, 2018, 05:37:42 PM
Hi Itsu,

To check the correct tuning of the toroidal tank, you could use say a 2-3 turn loose coupling coil wound on the toroid to monitor the amplitude on the oscilloscope when tuning the trimmer capacitor for maximum, this way you can remove the probe self capacitance from the tank and the tuning can be correct also for the collector-emitter waveform test.

I suspect when the 5 kOhm trimmer pot has a certain value other than full zero Ohm, the voltage drop across it changes hence the transistor matching to the tank (operational point) also changes when the loading effect of L3 appears at the collector as you tune L3 to resonance, this may cause what you find.  You may wish to use say only 5 - 7 V supply instead of the 12 V battery for a test to see whether this strange behavior develops then  (no 5 kOhm or just short circuit it).

Regarding the brigthness getting less when you tune L3 to 13.56 MHz from its own frequency of 15 MHz may indicate the ferrite is already a bit lossy at that frequency? (unless you know its specifications but this is minor issue at present)

Thanks for your kindness.

Gyula

Gyula,

initial test shows that removing the probe from the toroid output and changing it to a 2 turn loose
coupling coil, the trimmer cap needs to be full (23pF) to show some oscillations.
Connecting a second probe to the collector/emitter stops the oscillations.

So think i need to have some more capacitance in the tank to work without the probe attached.

Anyway, reconnecting the probe to the toroid output and using the 2th probe across collector/emitter
shows the below signals:

(Blue is the collector/emitter signal, yellow again the toroid output).


More later,  itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 06:54:03 PM
Hi Itsu,
Unfortunately, the probe capacitance can affect the resonant frequency of the tank, though in a smaller way because the collector is tied to the tap and the emitter AC wise also connects to the positive rail via the internal impedance of the supply and any filter cap across the supply rails.  But this probe issue can be fine tuned by trial and error.
Thanks for the collector waveform. I think it will still change a little when the tank has the correct resonant frequency. I indicated the distance between the zero and the minimum collector voltage, it is about 2.5 V. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 29, 2018, 07:16:40 PM

Thanks Gyula,

i will try a bigger variable cap and use a L3 coil (with leds) that resonates around 13.56MHz.

Question about the 100nF cap, i thought it will be included in the L3 / leds series resonance (pulling it down greatly), but it seems to have little influence.
Does this mean that there is no series resonance in play (L3 via capacitance to the leds)?

Anyway, here the diagram as i now have it running.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 07:30:06 PM
The 100 nF can influence resonance at 13.56 MHz only very very little, it is practically an AC short circuit.
I will think on the mutual influence between the tank and L3, both are a parallel resonant circuit connected in
series via the stray caps or fields.     Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 29, 2018, 08:21:31 PM
Working with the crystal or low output SG
https://electronicbase.net/band-pass-filter-calculator/#lc-bandpass-filter-calculator
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 08:47:14 PM
Hi mikrovolt,
Please resize your uploaded picture because it is too wide horizontally, and makes the thread hard to read.
Resize it in Windows Paint or in any picture editor and make sure the horizontal pixel number is not higher
than 900, ok?  (Now it has 1079.)You can edit your post and reupload the reduced size picture if you click on the
Modify icon at the top right sideof your above post,  just scroll horizontally to the right hand size to be able to see it. 
Please do this within 12 hours, later you cannot do this.  Forum software sucks us all...

Thanks,   
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 29, 2018, 09:02:02 PM
Gyula and Conrad ----Thanks for the feedback on that function generator I am using.  So I guess it gives out only about 1 watt.  Not much to play with but that is the whole point.  The crystal circuits we are building allow for increased power and the question is whether or not there is a gain.  It is an interesting study either way.

Mikrovolt-- I thought about a filter add on all last night.  Dr. Stiffler usually had one in his circuits.  I have always been sloppy in my work and left them off but in this study there might be a real need for one.  If there is a true gain then fine tuning might the difference in seeing it or not.  Just guessing.

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 09:11:12 PM
Hi Lidmotor,
We need to ask mikrovolt where he thinks to use this filter?
I ask this because my impression is he may mean to increase oscillator output amplitude by making impedance transformation.
Dr Stiffler applies filter mainly for the supply voltage rail filtering if I recall correctly. Maybe he used it at other places I cannot recall now.
Thanks,  Gyula

EDIT  I believe mikrovolt means to use this filter either at the output of a low level generator or crystal oscillator, to increase the amplitude of the low output.  This is possible because the output of this filter at the left hand side may have a high resonant amplitude when it is terminated via a single wire by a high impedance load like an L3 coil with the capacitive coupled LED array.
The 50 Ohm resistor on the right indicates the internal resistance of a generator, that is the input of the filter I believe.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 09:33:38 PM
Hi Itsu,

As I wrote about the tank and L3, both are a parallel resonant circuit connected in
series via the stray or distributed capacitors. I edited your schematic diagram.
I labeled the toroidal coil as Lt and the self capacitance of L3 as Ccoil.  I also included a Cstray capacitor
that very likely 'connects' the 'hv' end of L3 and the LED array back to the circuit via the
enviroment, closing the two parallel resonant LC circuits in a series connection with respect to
each other. 
Putting this otherwise: we have two LC parallel circuits in series connection via the Cstray capacitor.

This can give multiple resonances: Lt can make a series circuit with Ccoil at a certain frequency and the trimmer cap C_VAR
can also make yet another series circuit with L3, these are the main two additional series resonances
beside the two parallel resonant tanks. 

Maybe this is not so complicated in practice because we have a single frequency, 13.56 MHz
defined by the crystal and some of the resonances may be far from this frequency so their effect
may be neglected.  One thing is sure: you and others found that the output voltage of a generator
reduces when L3 with the LED load on it (attached by a single wire to the hot output) is tuned to
resonance at the generator output frequency.

We may need to further ponder on this.  8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on June 29, 2018, 09:53:22 PM
Gyula---You are right.  Mikrovolt's filter is on the output not the input.  My mistake.  I was thinking of Doc's filters that he used on his circuits inputs. 

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 10:02:10 PM
Okay Lidmotor, no problem.
The real "problem" is that with such RF voltage step up transformations by resonant circuits, filters etc,  the energy does not increase what we feed into the circuit at our own expense.   At least, so far there has been no evidence for this.

Of course, it is always useful to have a LED lamp which consumes less input energy than earlier when was bought as an off the shelf product.  And the source of energy can also come from a solar cell when practical.  These are useful pieces of advantage, no doubt.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 29, 2018, 10:22:09 PM

Gyula,

i thought that the L3 in combination with the alu backplate (capacitance) of the leds form a series LC circuit resonant
at 13.5MHZ (15MHz in my case).

The reason for that thought was that my FG voltage dips at resonance, meaning low impedance and high current
which is a mark of a series LC in resonance.

That would mean that i now have a parallel LC (tank circuit) in series with a series LC (L3 + leds).
But i see what you mean with your explaination.

Anyway, i have tried to match the tank LC only (so no L3 / leds connected) with a bigger variable C (6 -60pF)
to produce max oscillations at 13.5MHz.

The screenshot shows the result, but it blows the BC337-40 transistor within seconds.
So i am looking for a replacement transistor that can withstand that power.

Than i will start to match the L3 with leds to be spot on 13.5MHz too (rewind L3 probably).

Blue is collector signal,  yellow the tank output.
Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 29, 2018, 10:42:04 PM
Hi Itsu,

Very, very nice result with the 200 Vpp tank circuit voltage !   

I can agree with your reasonings for L3 forming a series circuit with the Alu backplate when viewing them from the generator output. This can also explain the reduction of the generator output voltage, also this loading is what takes the energy from the xtal oscillator. 

Regarding the transistor, can you think of a 100 V fast switching bipolar power transistor you may have in one of your drawers? IF you do not have such at hand, what component suppliers can you reach at your place to order from? I could help select from the choices in stock offered by them. You may PM if you wish of course.

Thanks,
Gyula


EDIT  if you have mouser.com in your country, here are some good transistor types, with very low collector-emitter saturation voltages and higher than 100 V collector voltage ratings:https://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Diodes-Incorporated/ZTX855STZ?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWizF0eVyYE44Z2nyOhAR0%252bHE%3d (https://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Diodes-Incorporated/ZTX855STZ?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWizF0eVyYE44Z2nyOhAR0%252bHE%3d)

https://mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/2SC4027S-E?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWiwdH0KqkRU51WtddJ3XM6TA%3d (https://mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/2SC4027S-E?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWiwdH0KqkRU51WtddJ3XM6TA%3d)

https://mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/2SD1815S-E?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWiwdH0KqkRU513QpD3tszHKs= (https://mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/2SD1815S-E?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWiwdH0KqkRU513QpD3tszHKs=)
 
If the links do not work for somebody, the transistor types are included in the links (ZTX855STZ, 2SC4027S-E, 2SD1815S-E).
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 30, 2018, 01:03:35 AM
  Speaking of transistors...  I've been working on making a crystal oscillator, as well.  I'm using the 2SC5200 transistor,  an unknown value choke with some 2.5ohms resistance, a 100k ohm resistor, a 22pf cap, and a 100nf cap before the home made L3.  They are all used parts from my junk pile. Which is why they look so old and rusty. Oh, and also a 12.000MHz crystal.

  The problem that I'm having is that although I get the 12v input through all the filters and chokes, I only get 0.5v at the transistor base, between the emitter and base. I don't know if I should be measuring it another way. But, there does not seam to be enough voltage at the transistor base to properly switch.
 
The input is from severall lithium ion batteries,  there's 12v at the collector/emitter, but the transistor is not switching.   
Any ideas are welcome.                                     
   BTW:  I do have several of the 1815 and 945 transistors, if I can't make the 5200 turn on, but no 2222.
   
   PS:  Itsu:  Great to see you here, and showing some very nice results, as well.                                                                                                                                                                                               NickZ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on June 30, 2018, 04:50:37 AM
Neither the 1815 or 945 are rubbish for this...they work.
Most especially the C1815 if GR variety, quite excellent.

You say 100ohms ? the one across the crystal ?
That's far too low :) it does need to be approx 100K.

If no joy, physically tapping the L3 may start it up if it doesn't start on its own.
I would advise putting an LED from Emitter to Base in reverse (positive of the LED to batt negative). That way, when the LED is on, the circuit is running.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on June 30, 2018, 06:23:19 AM
The crystal oscillator can be filtered to improve the wave shape.
A low distortion sine wave has better harmonics.
The theoretical LC values can be found for any impedance using the web page calculator listed above.







Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 30, 2018, 11:11:13 AM

Gyula,

i tried a BF869 which i had, but it did not oscillate somehow also a TIP122 with same result.
I will try to locate one of your mentioned transistors in my pile of circuitboards or else
order some, they look just what i need.

The switching off / on of the oscillator i see, seems to be due to it flipping into a 3th harmonics
(40MHz @ low amplitude) oscillation with the 5K trimmer pot at a certain point (low ohms value).

The reason for running at the 12V (and blowing the transistor) is that at that voltage the oscillator
seems to work best showing a nice sine wave etc.   
Lowering the voltage (keeping the transistor alive) seems to distort the signal it can produce.



Nick,

try to run the oscillator without the L3 coil attached first.
The L3 and leds causes strange influence on the oscillator, making it to stall often.


Itsu 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 30, 2018, 12:18:42 PM
Hi Itsu,

I think you could connect a 22 to 33 pF ceramic capacitor across the base and emitter of the BF869 transistor, this may help oscillate the circuit. You surely know that the base and emitter is mixed up in the TO-202 casing if I recall correctly http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/philips/BF871.pdf  (the first pin on the left is the emitter).

Also, the collector current can only be maximum 100 mA peak but still this would be worth trying.

I believe the use of a capacitor across the base-emitter would help reduce tendency for harmonic oscillations too.

When there is a certain resistor value set by the 5 kOhm trimmer, the DC operational point is changing because the 100 kOhm base resistor receives a reduced supply voltage due to the voltage drop across the series set resistor, this would involve the use of a 100-220 kOhm trimmer potmeter instead and control base current in such cases.  Alternatively, you could connect the top pin of the 100 kOhm resistor (or potmeter) directly to the positive input rail, to avoid the voltage drop effect for the base.
The BF869 has a much lower hFE than the earlier BC337-40 so adjusting the operation point is needed.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on June 30, 2018, 02:33:46 PM
Hi Nick,

The 0.5 V voltage level (I assume you meant DC voltage) across the base and emitter can be correct for a bipolar npn transistor.

Would like to ask whether you connected your scope probe across the collector and negative supply ground? to see any waveform?  IF you did check that and saw only the 12V DC level on the collector (flat line at around the 12 V height from the zero line and the time base set to some ten nanosecond), then try to follow what I suggested to itsu with the use of the base emitter capacitor and 100 kOhm trimmer potmeter.
In such oscillator circuit the transistor is normally needed to be DC biased to 10-20 mA collector current by the 100 kOhm but due the various hFE values of the different transistors, it should be adjusted individually.
What is the DC current draw for you oscillator from the 12 V battery input?  You can watch the input current on a DMM while you close the base and emitter pins of the transistor by a slightly wet finger: if the crystal oscillates then it probably stops when you touch the two pins so input current should change.  But the scope probe across the collector-emitter is better to use for checking.
I can see something sleeved onto the wire which connects the collector to the board: are they ferrite beads? What are they?  IF they are ferrit beads, then try to remove them, they are not needed in this oscillator.

Your choke coil may have come from an AC mains filter part of a monitor or tv set etc input power supply, it may have two windings and I think it is enough to use only one of them in the collector. Did you mean the 2.5 Ohm DC resistance for one winding or both in series? In an unfortunate case when you connected the two coils in series, they may cancel each other so that a very small inductance can remain for the collector in that case, preventing oscillations.   
There are numbers and letters on the label of the choke, try to search for either the top full line or the bottom by google, you may get a hit and the inductance of the choke may turn out. As Itsu suggested, do not connect coil L3 yet, first focus on the oscillator. 

EDIT:  perhaps you have the 1 kOhm resistor in the collector what I suspected to be ferrite bead I guess. And the choke coil is used for supply rail filtering? 


Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on June 30, 2018, 10:38:28 PM

I did not do much today, the weather is very nice still here.

I tried to use the BF869 (yes indeed different layout, as with all these transistors, so i always measure where the base is first).

But i could not get it running, not with the extra 20pF across base/emitter either.

Then i tried to attach the 100K to the 12V plus line instead of behind the 5K trimmer pot, but then even with the BC337 it did not oscillate anymore.
The base voltage in either case is around 650mV, so it seems to need the feedback line from the collector to oscillate.

Changing the 100K for a 200K trimmer pot (2x 100K in series) and varying the voltage there did not made it oscillate.

So i decided for now to stay with the old setup (bc337 transistor, fixed 100K to the collector voltage) and lower with the 5K trimmer pot the voltage on the collector so it stays around 30°C  (86°F) and still deliver about 100Vpp at the output.

The spectrum analyzer shows the noise this thing produces (even into the 500MHz range!), see screenshot 1.
The screenshot 2 shows the output signal (yellow), the collector signal (blue) and the base signal (purple).

Still need to redo the L3 coil so it resonates at 13.56MHz with the leds.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on June 30, 2018, 11:56:19 PM
    Well guys, I can see that I'm not the only one having a heck of a hard time trying to get this simple little device working.
     I changed the 2SC5200 transistor to a 1815, and it fired up, but only by touching the base, although that's not what its supposed to do. It also fires up by holding the L3 end, or touching it.  I don't have a 100k trim pot.
  I still get no light at the single led, with the diode loop, even though there's about 200v, showing on the scope, but no light on the bulb.
 
   I have no hairs on my head left to pull. I hope that you guys are having an easier time of it. No wonder it took the Doc 6 months just to get as far as he's shown. Makes me wonder what other tricks he has up his sleeve.

   Gyula:  The black (ferrite bead), is actually the choke (1000uH?) with 2.5 ohms of resistance mounted on the red wire going to the collector. There's NO numbers or letters on it
   The tiny ceramic cap (22pf) has only a 22 written on it. So, I'm guessing that it's the right one.
 
   I may remove all the AC filters from the board, and try again.  This small PCB was meant for another Kacher circuit project, but I'm using it, as it's the only board I have left to mount these parts on, until I can get some more of these blank boards to build on.
   
   My idea was to see how high of an output could be obtained by using a higher voltage transistor, but now, if I could only light the single led/loop, I'd be a happy camper.
   
   I ordered two different boost converters about a month ago. They have not arrived from China, by turtle mail, as yet.   
   Itsu, the parts that you shipped have not arrived, either. That's why I'm working on this Dr. Stiffler project, for now.   
 I hope that it pans out...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 01, 2018, 01:03:35 AM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for all your efforts and of course enjoy good weather and take your time as the most convenient.

I think the hFE values of transistors are that crucial, first of all, and cause the problem. Transistor types with lower hFE like say 40-50 (BF869) need at least 15-20 mA quiescent collector current where they already can amplify better.  A 100 kOhm resistor lets roughly 12V / 100k= 0.12 mA base current and with a hFE of 50 the collector current can be only around 50 x 0.12 = 6 mA.
A BC337-40 has a hFE of not less than 400. The same 100 kOhm resistor drives the same 0.12 mA current into the base and the collector current will be at least 400 x 0.12 = 48 mA, a huge diference. The MPSA types the Doc uses have a hFE of at least 120-150 or higher if I recall correctly.

I do not get why the oscillator is not working when the 100 kOhm is directly connected to the positive rail. It is ok that there is feedback created from the collector (or rather from the top wire of the tap) when you insert (set) a resistor value by the 5 k trimmer but it is negative feedback which reduces gain, yet it creates an operational point where the crystal is able to work.
But with the extra collector resistor set by the 5 k trimmer the transistor sees higher collector impedance hence able to amplify maybe better,  I would think. You may say then that the higher collector impedance is present also when the 100 kOhm is directly on the positive rail, yet the oscillator does not work. I know it is easy to say that conditions for oscillations are not insured in the latter case... and I cannot know the actual circumstances, details.Regarding the capacitor between the base-emitter, I may have said too little value (20 pF), it can go up to 40-50 pF or higher too. The 22 pF across the collector-emitter can also be increased but then the 18 turns on the toroidal core should be reduced by 1-2 turns to bring back the resonant frequency of the tank (unless C_var can compensate it).

Thanks, Gyula


Hi Nick,   

Sorry for your finding this hard to build, it is difficult to help, so many issues may develop and even one of such issues is enough for the oscillator not to work.  If the choke in the collector is not a choke with at least some hundred uH value than the transistor with relatively low hFE could not amplify enough.  The 2.5 Ohm choke resistance may indicate it more than likely has 1000 uH, only an L meter can verify it (or there are means to measure it otherwise). The label with letters and number are on the ferrite mains filter and that was I thought you use it in the collector as the choke.   Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 01, 2018, 05:51:48 AM
Itsu, Gu and all, great job looking at SEC 6.5 Mhz 6/24/11 Stiffler youtube video notice the in between harmonics
and a redistribution in amplitude.  Possibly a doubler and diode action ?

I took a few screen captures of Dr. Stiffler using spectrum analyzer and I am listing the following data.
not exact but fairly close as tests can very slightly. atten 10 db, center 25 Mhz, span 50 Mhz, 5 Mhz/div
(6.5, -17db) (13.13,-60db) (19.75,-45db) (26.25,-38db) (32.75, -45db) (39.38,-52db) (45.88,--50db)
another frequency series taken from my notes: antenna on spec analyzer
(6.8 ) (13.6 ) (20.4 ) (27.2 ) (34 ) (40.79) (47.6)

your harmonics agree with standard
http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/harmonics.php?f=13.494599M
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 01, 2018, 08:46:18 AM
testing 13.56 mhz crystal circuit with RFID 13.56 MHZ external antenna

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 01, 2018, 11:46:02 AM

Gyula,

you are a wizzard with transistors, thats for sure, and its good to show us (refresh) on the workings of one
as i better understand the processe that makes the oscillator work, hopefully.

I will make the BF869 to oscillate eventually, its like what TK said:
"Amplifiers that oscillate, and oscillators that amplify".

 


Nick,

even with known components its hard enough to get this (tank circuit) oscillator to work, so without
knowing you use the correct valued components its probably impossible.
Try more different values for the cap and see if it starts oscillating on its own, you must be almost there.

I have asked my local post office to start an investigation on the send parts, so waiting for their respons.

Itsu 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on July 01, 2018, 03:17:42 PM
13.5 MHz Crystal can you find in the old wireless microsoft mouse
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 01, 2018, 03:55:06 PM
   Ed:   Thanks for the tip. I just opened up one of my old wireless mouse, and sure enough, there's the 13.5MHz crystal inside.   I'll be pulling it out ASAP.    Thanks again. Great tip.

   EDIT: After opening up and removing the mouse circuit board, I found not one, but two 13.5MHz crystals. My lucky day... 
Now I have the right component for the job. And I had it all along. Sweet!!!  There is also a small black inductor, with a black dot on top. What value might that be?  1000uH, perhaps.
                                                                                                                                 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on July 01, 2018, 07:00:26 PM
Your welcom Nick

Have some one information for the coil or how to
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 01, 2018, 07:29:10 PM

Got the BF869 as oscillator running.
I removed the 5K trimmer pot and replaced the 100K fixed base resistor by a 50K trimmer pot and added a 47pF cap across collector/emitter.
The 50K pot was set to 18.5K when the below screenshot was taken.

So we have 12.5V from the battery and 18.5K base resistor meaning we have 0.67mA running in the base
Times 50 as hFE so we have 33.7mA quiescent collector current

12,5V / 18.5K = 0.67mA   x 50 = 33.7mA

But the signals are nowhere near what i got with the BC337 and i see an elevated collector signal (blue trace, yellow is output signal behind the 100nF cap).

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 01, 2018, 07:50:07 PM
All---Another crystal circuit replication popped up on YouTube done by channel called 'JB-N107Lab'.
   There is no dialogue but he shows that he is getting the job done.  He is using a very interesting compound AV plug (Stiffler Loop) as the load.
  He is also finding that 13MHz is not critical and has done a series of videos with the circuit.

Here is one of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqxBg8-pzPA

erfandl----  I ordered some of those little RFID 13.56MHz antennas but they have not arrived yet.  I was glad to see that you got yours to work on the circuit.

Ed----The coils (L3 I guess we are calling it) people are using are based on Dr. Stiffler's SEC 18 L3 coil.  If you look back a few pages you will find more discussion on that.

Mikrovolt---Thanks for the info on the frequencies and harmonics.  That really helped me understand what I am seeing.  I have been doing pulse motor testing using a single wire feed off my signal generator and it has been confusing.  I got the motor to run on some strange frequencies and it might be a harmonics situation.

Nick -- Keep at it.  As I recall you live in Costa Rica and I can imagine how hard it is to get parts there.  All the stores near me that sold electronics parts have vanished and I have to order parts online or innovate circuits with stuff I have on hand.  I feel your pain. 

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on July 01, 2018, 08:43:17 PM
Thanks Lidmotor i want more information for L1
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 01, 2018, 09:06:03 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, good! I assume you checked the 33-34 mA quiescent collector current when the crystal is removed? It would confirm the assumption of hFE being really around 50 (I took it from data sheet, it said as minimum 50).

The elevated collector waveform indicates that the AC impedance (i.e. that of the 4 turn tap) across which the hFE can amplify is low. In fact, it is the hFE which is low versus that of a BC337-40 but now you surely have less than maybe 100?.

Ideally the AC collector voltage should swing between zero and about twice the supply voltage. (I have not mentioned this yet.) To increase AC impedance for the collector and have higher gain as an amplifier, you would need to make taps at 5 and 6 and maybe at 7 turns and see the collector waveform and also the full AC peak to peak across the trimmer capacitor.  When the tap is moved higher, the resonant voltage step up decreases but maybe the gain by the higher AC impedance could compensate for it in a certain degree.

The probe self capacitance is added via the 100 nF to the 47 pF cap you placed across the collector-emitter, of course. I wonder what is the tank trimmer cap capacitance now? Can you easily tune it to maximum tank voltage?  (The probe capacitance is also across the tap, not only across the collector-emitter.)
Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 01, 2018, 10:39:11 PM

Gyula,

i just wanted to make this BF869 to oscillate with minimum changes in the circuit and now it did i will
leave it at that and continue with the BC337 which stays cool at around 100Vpp output.

I redid my L3 coil and have it resonate at 13.5MHz with the leds connected using my FG as drive.

When i use the BC337 oscillator set at 100Vpp output to drive it then the leds come on faintly, so
more tuning needs to be done.

When i connect a virtual ground (cliplead to the 2 1N4148 diodes center junction), then the leds really
take of, so i will use that virtual ground and tune to the max (5K trimmer pot inserted again as with
direct connect to the 12.5V battery, the oscillator flips to 3th harmonics (40MHz)).

Itsu

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 01, 2018, 11:49:11 PM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks and I understand,  okay.

The tuning for L3 in advance by the FG differs from what will be needed from the oscillator output, unfortunately, mainly because the FG output is purely resistive (no reactance). And first, I think, when L3 is connected to the oscillator and the LEDs are also attached to L3, it is the C_var trimmer cap which would need retuning a little first and then L3,  and then the trimmer cap again and so forth. They can mutually detune each other and this should be corrected in alternative steps, the indicator for tuning can be the LED brightness.

It is strange that the oscillator flips to its 3rd harmonic: how can the AC impedance of the collector tank be enough at 40 MHz when it is tuned to 13.5 I wonder.  Can you increase the capacitor value between the base-emitter up to say 50, 70 or even 100 pF? Maybe that will kill amplification at 40 MHz at the transistor input.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 02, 2018, 07:45:44 PM
Could the 3rd harmonic situation be related to the early experiments, where an LED in series with the +V input to the crystal lowered it by 3x ?
Example would be a 12MHz crystal that reported as running at 4MHz.
Something about the voltage stability maybe ?


Following a tip by iQuest, i've just got the FFT function going on my Rigol 1054Z.
The idea, is to make use of it with these and related projects.
Dr. Stiffler used to show the FFT output of his experiments and looking at the harmonics might be a clue when changes are made.
Pic attached of where am up to with setting it up...here shown measuring a possible exciter, based on 2 chokes. The FFT display itself is tiny and pressing the Hz/Div only seems to change the Offset, as indeed does the actual Offset button below it.
The scope was 'jailbroken' finally, have never done that and it now reports as a DS1104Z.

Itsu - I know you have been using your FFT and am wondering if your harmonics flip at a specific point of circuit tuning.




Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 02, 2018, 08:51:02 PM
Hi Slider,

The example you mention: was it a 2 pin crystal or was it a 4 pin crystal oscillator?
I think the two cases are different: the 4 pin oscillators usually need 5V supply voltage +/-0.25V and a LED in series with them may reduce the voltage below the specified range, thus the internal RC coupled amplifier circuit may provide a favorable condition for oscillations at an odd numbered subharmonic of the built-in crystal. (This also depends on the cut of the crystal.)
And inside the casing of the 4 pin oscillator there is no tuned LC circuit while in Itsu's circuit case a single transistor works for high Q toroidal tank which should give additional selectivity for 13.5 MHz, this one thing in itself would show why the 40 MHz frequency is strange to appear. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 02, 2018, 10:03:15 PM

Gyula,   Slider,

i made a video about my present setup showing the flipping into 3th Harmonics operations etc.
Also the spectrum (0 - 500MHz range) is shown on my Spectrum Analyzer both at 13.56MHz as with 40MHz operation,
see also the screenshots with harmonics table at both situations (the 104MHz at 2th screenshot is a local FM station).

I keep the input voltage low via the 5K trimmer pot to protect my transistor by limiting the collector signal at twice the input voltage, so roughly at about 24Vpp.
If i increase the input voltage it seems the signals get stronger and better (sine wave like), but my transistor won't stand it for long (46Vpp at the collector).

At the end i inserted a 47pF cap across base/emitter, but this does not prevent the oscillator to flip into 3th harmonics operation, even a 100pF cap seems to have no influence.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MJZNHmHovc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MJZNHmHovc&feature=youtu.be)

Itsu 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 02, 2018, 10:54:18 PM
Very informative Itsu, thanks.
I've found that the several builds now of this sort of circuit have worked with 18pF to 30pF caps across the Emitter/Collector. Am not using a toroid such as you have, which I can only think of that would cause that difference.
Is there any chance it could be the permeability values of the toroid itself ?


Have done some adjusting and now am more familiar with the FFT function of the scope.
It's not to the point yet of measuring the actual frequency harmonics, but they are much more visible and their positions can be better assessed.
In this example shot, am looking at the output of a 10MHz crystal. The peaks of 10MHz,  20MHz, 40MHz and 50MHz can be seen, with 30MHz not as prominent.

Gyula - 4 pin crystal, but meaning to draw comparison to a frequency locked in by a crystal, rather than a free running circuit.
 

 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 02, 2018, 11:39:54 PM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the video and all your efforts.

From your earlier posts I understood (maybe I misunderstood) the 40 MHz appears only when the 5 kOhm trimmer pot reduces the 12V supply voltage to the oscillator, you did not write that you set the variable cap towards its minimum value. Now you showed you detuned the toroidal tank with the 6 to 60 pF variable capacitor and I assume the 40 MHz operation occured when you detuned the tank also yesterday, right?

The explanation for the 40 MHz operation is this: When there is no resonant collector impedance at 13.5 MHz because the tank is detuned from 13.5 MHz towards the higher frequencies, then the transistor simply cannot amplify high enough at the base frequency any more but it can amplify with enough gain near the 3rd harmonic because the tank impedance has become higher somewhere in the 25-40 MHz range the 6-8 pF variable cap set its resonance, so the crystal jumped to overtone mode. This is all. We can step over this 'issue'.

I think the many harmonics appear because probably the tap is not so good for the transistor operational point when reduced supply voltage feeds the collector. For the BC337-40 probably a higher than 100 kOhm base resistor would be better, think of the base current calculation. But no need to deal with this because:

I think now if you wish to continue tinkering with this circuit, a better transistor type should be obtained.  Then it could be mounted on a heat sink if needed and will not blow from the higher peak collector voltages either. 

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 03, 2018, 12:37:13 AM
Very informative Itsu, thanks.
I've found that the several builds now of this sort of circuit have worked with 18pF to 30pF caps across the Emitter/Collector. Am not using a toroid such as you have, which I can only think of that would cause that difference.
Is there any chance it could be the permeability values of the toroid itself ?


Have done some adjusting and now am more familiar with the FFT function of the scope.
It's not to the point yet of measuring the actual frequency harmonics, but they are much more visible and their positions can be better assessed.
In this example shot, am looking at the output of a 10MHz crystal. The peaks of 10MHz,  20MHz, 40MHz and 50MHz can be seen, with 30MHz not as prominent.

Gyula - 4 pin crystal, but meaning to draw comparison to a frequency locked in by a crystal, rather than a free running circuit.
Excellent. Now you can use the scope's Cursors in manual mode to get the precise frequencies of the peaks in the FFT.

I'm glad people are going beyond the basics in their use of this nice little oscilloscope. The FFT function isn't particularly easy to use, it takes some fiddling to get an interpretable display, and of course it's nowhere near as capable as a stand-alone Spectrum Analyzer, but it's not too bad for a basic FFT.  And it's amazing that this function is available at all in these low-cost scopes.


Demo 1054z screen showing cursors measuring frequency and attenuation of harmonics on FFT of a 1 kHz square wave input:
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 03, 2018, 01:07:34 AM
TK - Am glad to see your input on this.
Yes indeed, that's the next step, to use the cursors.
One thing i've been able to do, is to notice that the better the winding of a coil, the better the main output peak.
A 13.5225MHz crystal will show the main peak at twice the amplitude of any others, with coils intentionally wound for that frequency area. Put a 10MHz coil on and it may work ok, especially with a piece of ferrite, but the harmonics away from the crystal frequency will be much stronger. 
Also, the better the winding and closer to the frequency of a crystal, the less need there is for any ferrite in that coil. Looking at the screen and adjusting turns for less and less harmonics content, I just got a coil to work the best of any on a Dollar Tree bulb, with no ferrite.
It's very useful :)


Update: Using the peaks reduction method for tuning on the scope, i've got a coil now that doesn't need ferrite and, in fact, ferrite diminishes output brightness of the attached Dollar Tree bulb.
Best results so far are by connecting the L3 to an AV plug, cliplead to the aluminium back.
The brightness might not be anything special, but it's a lot better than previous versions or coils on this bench here. Also no heatsink required, just a cliplead.
Am hoping to further improve with this FFT malarky....the coil is 74 turns of 30AWG on a solder tube.
Crystal is 13.5225 MHz  :)

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 03, 2018, 06:26:46 AM
Simple Tesla coil L1 Pri 1mhry with L2 3 turns 0.4uh, with NE555 driving with very narrow pulse drive from current driver and FET at 60khz
Tesla coil is not in any kind of resonance at all. Led display is verry bright with pencil earth to garden earth.

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 03, 2018, 06:45:46 AM
  Slider:   It is as I had suspected, that once the oscillator is working properly, there is no need for the clip lead, aluminum blocks, or touching the device, etz... And adding ferrite at that point only takes the frequency off of the right sweet spot. As needing those things really only proves that the device is NOT running at the right working frequency. And the use of those things only helps to partially compensate when running at an incorrect or off frequency. But, the best thing is to be spot on, as from the looks of the light coming off of your leds, Slider, they still look pretty dim. No offense meant.
   I'm still having a hard time with this project. My running frequency is at 60Hz, now, no matter what I do. I can change most every component, and still only see it running at 60Hz. I still have not found the reason for this.  And whats worse is that now, the oscillator won't kick on, at all. But, the scope is reading 60Hz, and if I touch the transistor like on the base, or the end of the L3 the voltage goes to several hundred volts, yet an led on a diode loop won't light. WTF!!! 

  As Gyula is our wizard here, I would like to ask for help. Yes, more help, that is.
  What seams to bring the device out of the closet, is touching certain parts, as it seams to need a return ground connection, or more capacitance.  Or... who knows what.
   If you guys are still needing to use a clip lead to see the led "take off", that only proves that you are not running it at the right frequency. As the Doc does not need to use a clip lead to see some results, at least not now, although the diode loop may work similar be a sort of clip lead, as well.

   I suggest you really replicate what the Doc is showing, otherwise you'll just get side tracked onto making a JT, or a normal exciter, with no OU, or anything else of interest, here. Which is NOT the point.  The point of this venture is to tap the aether, or the surrounding ambient energy available, or whatever you want to call it. And to see some positive OU results, or possibly even self running, from an anomaly of sorts. As well as to learn what it takes to get there.  Not just partially lighting some leds off of a battery, on a just a few mAs. As fun as that may be...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 03, 2018, 10:17:16 AM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the video and all your efforts.

From your earlier posts I understood (maybe I misunderstood) the 40 MHz appears only when the 5 kOhm trimmer pot reduces the 12V supply voltage to the oscillator, you did not write that you set the variable cap towards its minimum value. Now you showed you detuned the toroidal tank with the 6 to 60 pF variable capacitor and I assume the 40 MHz operation occured when you detuned the tank also yesterday, right?

The explanation for the 40 MHz operation is this: When there is no resonant collector impedance at 13.5 MHz because the tank is detuned from 13.5 MHz towards the higher frequencies, then the transistor simply cannot amplify high enough at the base frequency any more but it can amplify with enough gain near the 3rd harmonic because the tank impedance has become higher somewhere in the 25-40 MHz range the 6-8 pF variable cap set its resonance, so the crystal jumped to overtone mode. This is all. We can step over this 'issue'.

I think the many harmonics appear because probably the tap is not so good for the transistor operational point when reduced supply voltage feeds the collector. For the BC337-40 probably a higher than 100 kOhm base resistor would be better, think of the base current calculation. But no need to deal with this because:

I think now if you wish to continue tinkering with this circuit, a better transistor type should be obtained.  Then it could be mounted on a heat sink if needed and will not blow from the higher peak collector voltages either. 

Thanks,  Gyula

Gyula,

you did not misunderstood, it was (is) the case that by setting the 5K pot to minimum (0 Ohm), or omit this
pot then the oscillator went into 3th harmonics operation, without touching the variable cap, but this was
without the virtual ground cliplead.

For video purposes i also rearranged (cleaned up) the circuit which also seem to have some influence on its
operation, so i am sorry for the confusion.

So yes, in the video the 40MHz operation occured when detuning the tank.
With the virtual ground, i cannot set the 5K pot to minimum nor can i direct attach the 12V supply
to the circuit as it will blow the transistor, but when i remove the cliplead and retune the thing it
probably behaves again like before (going into 3th harmonics at full supply voltage without retuning the
variable cap).

I can try that again if you like, but i think you are right and i need to go for a better transistor.
I will order some as i was not able to locate any suitable one on my circuit board pile.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 03, 2018, 10:23:25 AM

Slider,

yes the FFT function is a valuable asset of a scope, but it need some learning curve to use it and its
different to manage on each scope.

It surely shows nicely the harmonics of the signal that you look at FFT wise and can be used to aim for
a clean signal (all or most power into the base frequency).

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2018, 12:49:01 PM
Hi Itsu,

I think it would be better to obtain suitable transistors first. Similar to the types I gave examples earlier, maybe you can locate them near to you, not just at mouser.com  The goal is at least 80-100V or higher collector voltage rating and higher than 140 - 150 hFE and at least 0.5 A collector current rating.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2018, 12:54:16 PM
Simple Tesla coil L1 Pri 1mhry with L2 3 turns 0.4uh, with NE555 driving with very narrow pulse drive from current driver and FET at 60khz
Tesla coil is not in any kind of resonance at all. Led display is verry bright with pencil earth to garden earth.

AG
Hi AG,
Just a curious question: how do you know that one of the harmonics of the narrow 60 kHz pulses do not just hit coil resonance?   
IF you could change the 60 kHz frequency by a potmeter at the NE555 and sweep up and down say 20 - 30 kHz and see the change in brightness, that would be a good test for that.   OR you may have done so?   8)

I think though that your aim was mainly to show an increase in brightness when a kind of ground is introduced to the bottom of the load which is fed from the top of the coil.

Thanks,   Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 03, 2018, 01:59:39 PM
Hi AG,
Just a curious question: how do you know that one of the harmonics of the narrow 60 kHz pulses do not just hit coil resonance?   
IF you could change the 60 kHz frequency by a potmeter at the NE555 and sweep up and down say 20 - 30 kHz and see the change in brightness, that would be a good test for that.   OR you may have done so?   8)

I think though that your aim was mainly to show an increase in brightness when a kind of ground is introduced to the bottom of the load which is fed from the top of the coil.

Thanks,   Gyula
The mini Tesla coil resonance 1.2 mhz it's 8hz, so is 60khz but some peeks along the line will be higher than others. The NE555 can only go so
far, with the spike width i'm using, the charge discharge is split with RC and controlled with diode steering two presets.

The idea might be better suited if the wingdings (wire length) was tuned to say 1/8 wave i/4 wave ect and use a higher narrow voltage spike lest wast.

Gyula is that it, the pulse width harvesting all the harmonic energy ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2018, 02:29:30 PM
Hi AG,
If your coil has a self resonance at 1.2 MHz, then a 60 kHz narrow pulse can excite it with the 20th harmonic.  All I meant to vary the frequency of the NE555 timer, if it cannot go higher than 60 kHz, then it can go below 60 kHz, just to verify for yourself that the coil works or does not work at its resonant frequency, driven by a subharmonic pulse... 

And what has 8 Hz got to do with this all, I wonder?


The mini Tesla coil resonance 1.2 mhz it's 8hz, so is 60khz but some peeks along the line will be higher than others. The NE555 can only go so
far, with the spike width i'm using.

The idea might be better suited if the wingdings (wire length) was tuned to say 1/8 wave i/4 wave ect and use a higher narrow voltage spike lest wast.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2018, 02:40:31 PM

...
Gyula is that it, the pulse width harvesting all the harmonic energy ?
Yes I think so. A rectangular and narrow pulse is full of harmonics.  and the 20th or the 19th or the 21th (or whichever nearby) harmonic is amplified by the relatively high Q of the coil, even if it is top loaded by the LED.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2018, 03:19:09 PM
Hi Nick,

Your oscillator is surely not working at 60 Hz, the coil and the wires just pick up the stray field of the mains, from the house (or street) mains wiring.  When you touch wires, components pins and see 60 Hz amplitude increase on the scope your body surface which is merged in the 60 Hz field is added to the pick-up wiring of your setup,
The culprit in crystal oscillators is the transistor, this is the first to choose correctly, I wrote about this. The next component is the crystal but you have two of them now so its is unlikely that both are faulty. 

I suggest the following: remove the crystal from the oscillator.  Switch on the supply voltage to the circuit
Then drive the base of the transistor from your function generator set to its highest 2 MHz output frequency, but the amplitude should be only say 20 mV peak to peak, measured across the base and the negative rail.
You can adjust the 20 mVpp first by checking it on your oscilloscope. The generator output can drive the base via a 100 nF capacitor, the generator ground connection can be directly connected to the negative rail i.e. to the emitter, ok?

Now check the collector waveform, how it resembles to or differs from the 20 mVpp input sine wave?  Connect the scope ground clip also to the negative rail and the input clip directly to the transistor collector, use DC coupling for that scope channel.
If your choke coil in the collector indeed has 1000 uH or around that inductance, then it still can surely represent a decent AC impedance to the collector so you must see a much higher than 20 mVpp waveform.  This would mean the transistor is able to amplify at least at 2 MHz. IF you measure say 4.4 Vpp on the collector, then your amplifier can amplify 4400 mVpp / 20 mVpp = 220 times.
Sorry to give you such "home work" but this method could check your setup at least at 2 MHz how it behaves as an amplifier, a fundamental building block needed for an oscillator.

Of course, just check the total DC current your transistor draws from your battery or (power supply) you use for feeding it (I still mean when crystal is removed). 

If you do not get something from what I wrote above,  please ask. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 03, 2018, 04:53:47 PM
  Ok, thanks again Gyula.
   I did some changes to the circuit, as it won't fire up. First off, I changed the 1815 transistor back to the 2sc5200, as that one was working previously. I also removed the big AC choke and filter cap, and just left the 0.1uf.
  I installed a plug for the crystal, to be able to change them. And I'm now running the input from a 5watt solar panel, with about 20v.
  The 60Hz is due to my bare feet on tiled floor. Which I'm aware of. So, I isolated the circuit from any stray AC capacitive influences, also. And lift my feet off of the floor when testing, holding my breath to see if the circuit works. But, it doesn't. And I started turning blue.  However, I think that I see where the problem is, now. So, I'll take care of that, and report back.
   Thanks again,                          NickZ
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 03, 2018, 04:59:03 PM
Hi AG,
If your coil has a self resonance at 1.2 MHz, then a 60 kHz narrow pulse can excite it with the 20th harmonic.  All I meant to vary the frequency of the NE555 timer, if it cannot go higher than 60 kHz, then it can go below 60 kHz, just to verify for yourself that the coil works or does not work at its resonant frequency, driven by a sub harmonic pulse... 

And what has 8 Hz got to do with this all, I wonder?
every Tesla coil i make, once i connect or have an earth near by if I divide the frequency by 8 it always divides equally no remainder, isn't it the Schumann resonant frequency and i appear to get more output with the earth. Wired stuff!
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 03, 2018, 07:47:18 PM
Hi AG,
I agree it is a weird stuff.   The Schumann resonance changes day by day, it is not always 7.83 Hz  or  8 Hz  or 11 Hz etc.
There is a site where it is shown logged:https://www.disclosurenews.it/en/schumann-resonance-today-update/   

It is sure more tests are needed. 

every Tesla coil i make, once i connect or have an earth near by if I divide the frequency by 8 it always divides equally no remainder, isn't it the Schumann resonant frequency and i appear to get more output with the earth. Wired stuff!
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 04, 2018, 12:36:10 AM
Nick - No problem at all !
There is a world of difference between the orange type soft glow and then white light, which these are and then the dazzling break the eyeballs light.
Step by step is the way, learning why some stuff doesn't work as well as what does work and why.

Gyula - Nice site link. I'd heard of it being different nowadays and of the fluctuations. That site is good for understanding it more, with the graphs shown.
Am quite glad I never developed an OU machine based on the Schumann Resonance lol, that's a few hours saved huh. Get the thing to a point of self running, after years and years of study and builds, only for the frequency to move off and do its own thing.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 04, 2018, 09:25:55 PM
Hi Slider,
I am afraid it would take many, many hours to develop a device that would convert or sniff energy from Schumann resonance if it is possible...  :D   But then you would not need to tear your hair out due to the fluctuating frequencies because then (once you know the how to) you could surely build several such devices for the changing frequencies or even to track them... so you should not be left without OU.  8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 05, 2018, 09:36:46 PM

Received my newly ordered transistors and put them in one after the other.
I am not using the virtual ground nor the 5K trimmer pot in the supply line (so 12.5V from a battery).

The 2SD1815S first shows some nice output after retuning.
The 100K trimmer pot across the x-tal was set to 43K for max output.
The transistor temperature went up to 42°C (107°F).
Output signal 20Vpp, collector signal 29Vpp

The 2SC4027S next shows some even better output after retuning.
The 100K trimmer pot across the x-tal was now set to 27.5K for max. output
The transistor temperature went up to 36°C (97°F).
Output signal 28Vpp, collector signal 30Vpp, see screenshot 1

So it seems the 2SC4027 is the better performer.
0-180MHz spectrum with this last transistor, see screenshot 2.
When detuning the variable cap both max plus or max minus, the circuit flips into 3th harmonics operation.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d55uXINoDjc

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 05, 2018, 11:38:43 PM
Hi Itsu,

Very good, many thanks for everything.

I suspect the toroidal core starts saturating from the DC component of the collector current.  When you have time please measure the input current taken from the 12V battery.
Core saturation can cause the sine wave distortion we see across the tank (the yellow waveforms). And if you measure the variable capacitor pF value after it is set to the best tuned position, you may find it higher than what would be needed for tuning a 8.2 uH coil to 13.5 MHz, this would be a sure indication of certain core saturation which involves a less than 8.2 uH.

Trying to reduce core saturation, would you make the tap at the 3rd and / or at the 2nd turns instead of the present 4th? I know this may sound strange but I think it would be worth testing. This reduces the Amperturns for the core from the collector current point of view but also reduces the AC impedance for the collector, on which the transistor can amplify.  But the increased step-up transformation in the coil may partially compensate for that.   Try to set similar input current by the 100 kOHm trimmer pot when using the 3rd or 2nd tap, should it change but of course you can set it also for the highest output (maybe with some distortion returning...).

The spectrum of the waveform that drives L3 has many harmonics due to the suspected core saturation,  so energy is distributed rather than confined to the base frequency (13.5 MHz).
Okay on detuning the variable cap and the 40 MHz returns, we need not bother about it,  the loaded and detuned tank will have higher impedance for the collector nearer to 40 MHz than around 13.5 MHz, that is all. 

Two question if I may: Did you remove the capacitor from between the base and emitter?  Is the 22 pF or some other value is still needed between the collector and emitter for the oscillator to work?  (Switch the supply voltage on and of when the 22pF is changed or removed.)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 06, 2018, 12:13:56 AM
Hi Slider,
I am afraid it would take many, many hours to develop a device that would convert or sniff energy from Schumann resonance if it is possible...  :D   But then you would not need to tear your hair out due to the fluctuating frequencies because then (once you know the how to) you could surely build several such devices for the changing frequencies or even to track them... so you should not be left without OU.  8)
Gyula
Schumann resonance is like pulling the bath plug, How else would you guess the rotation of the earth or the hemisphere we live on ? Whats that got to do with it, my question to you is have you got a Tesla coil, find it's beat with you know what!
AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 06, 2018, 11:04:42 AM

Gyula,

i won't have much time today to play around, but will have later this weekend.

Ok, on the saturation of the toroid, but its not 8.2 uH anymore, as that was with it having 26 turns.
Now with 18 turns it has 4.4 uH if i remember right, i will check that again.


I did forgot to put in the 22pF cap when swapping transistors and remember it did not start oscillating,
but i will recheck that again too.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 06, 2018, 03:22:53 PM
Hi Itsu,

Yesterday I forgot the reduction in the number of turns from 26 to 18, sorry.  So now the coil may have any value between 4 to 4.4 uH, of course and this involves variable capacitor values of about 31 pF to 35 pF when the core is not starting to saturate.   
No need for any hurry of course.
Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 06, 2018, 03:31:28 PM
Schumann resonance is like pulling the bath plug, How else would you guess the rotation of the earth or the hemisphere we live on ? Whats that got to do with it, my question to you is have you got a Tesla coil, find it's beat with you know what!
AG
Hi AG,
Now I do not have a Tesla coil.  Years ago I wound a few air core single layer coils with different OD and lengths and had a grid dip meter available for checking the self resonant frequencies of those coils.  Back then I was not involved in 'free' energy topic.  If you feel like not speaking in riddles please share some more thoughts of yours on what to look, measure etc when someone is about finding a Tesla coil's beat with you know what...  ok?   8)

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 06, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
   Itsu, Gyula:   I finally got the crystal oscillator working on a 13.5MHz crystal, to some degree.   I had not realize that the C1815 has the emitter on the left side, instead of on the right side, until last night, when I checked the data sheet on it.  Anyways, it's firing up now, and lighting a single led on a diode loop, but not any more number of leds. I guess this is normal, or not?  Seams like my L3 may be too long, as the led won't light at the end of the L3, but it will from a tap on the middle of the L3,  more or less.  The battery input voltages are 4v, 8v, or 12v. But, the transistor is getting hot on any of those voltages.
   Itsu: How did you tune your L3 to be in tune to the 13.5 frequency?  My oscillator is now running at that 13.5MHz frequency, using the right crystal from the wireless mouse, but it looks like the L3 needs to be tuned. I also replace the choke with one that has 4 ohms of resistance. I'm using a 22nf cap between the collector/emitter, and a 100nf cap going to the diode loop/led. 
   
   I will probably also have to wind a ferrite coil for the collector, like you are using, otherwise there is not much output. And I don't seem to be getting any wireless effects, as yet, either. Only by direct connection by the diode loop/led.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 06, 2018, 04:24:18 PM
Hi Nick,

Let me ask if you pull the crystal out from its socket, the single LED in the diode loop circuit gets distinguished in that moment? Sorry for this "cross question", the reason is you need to check the 60 Hz field from your mains wiring should not trick you.
It is very good you found the flip of the base and emitter issue by yourself, that is the way to learn from our own mistakes.

Yes your coil intended for L3 has many turns for 13.5 MHz if you used it earlier for around the 1 to 1.5 MHz resonances, driven by the Katcher circuit.  Lidmotor showed how to make a good approximate sized air coil in one of his recent videos.

I assume you wanted to type 22 pF instead of nF you use between the collector and emitter? It should be pF, and can be 25 or 33 pF if you have those at hand and you can place such 22 or 33 pF between the base and emitter too. It would be good if you could monitor the waveform across the collector and negative rail by your oscilloscope.

IF you consider using a toroidal core in the collector, you need to make sure the core is manufactured as a powdered iron RF core like the Amidon type Itsu uses. Ferrite toroids scavenged from say the mains filter part of power supplies simple do not work at 13.5 MHz and also any such toroidal core with unknown ferrite material specifications can only pull out your hair...

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 06, 2018, 05:23:28 PM
   Itsu, Gyula:   I finally got the crystal oscillator working on a 13.5MHz crystal, to some degree.   I had not realize that the C1815 has the emitter on the left side, instead of on the right side, until last night, when I checked the data sheet on it.  Anyways, it's firing up now, and lighting a single led on a diode loop, but not any more number of leds. I guess this is normal, or not?  Seams like my L3 may be too long, as the led won't light at the end of the L3, but it will from a tap on the middle of the L3,  more or less.  The battery input voltages are 4v, 8v, or 12v. But, the transistor is getting hot on any of those voltages.
  Itsu: How did you tune your L3 to be in tune to the 13.5 frequency? My oscillator is now running at that 13.5MHz frequency, using the right crystal from the wireless mouse, but it looks like the L3 needs to be tuned. I also replace the choke with one that has 4 ohms of resistance. I'm using a 22nf cap between the collector/emitter, and a 100nf cap going to the diode loop/led. 
   
   I will probably also have to wind a ferrite coil for the collector, like you are using, otherwise there is not much output. And I don't seem to be getting any wireless effects, as yet, either. Only by direct connection by the diode loop/led.

Nick,

i used my FG red lead only attached to the L3 free end with the L3 other end connected via a copper tape
taped to the alu back side of my leds strip (240V) with the 2  1N4148 diodes attached across the plus/minus
of this led strip.

With the FG at max. amplitude (20Vpp) i tune around 13Mhz to see where the leds peak.
Then add/remove turns on L3 untill it peaks to 13.56MHz.

As your FG will not get to 13MHz this method will not be useable by you i am afraid.


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 06, 2018, 07:15:29 PM
But it's still applicable ?
If the crystal is at 13.5MHz, then that frequency is known. The L3 won't drive a similarly connected few LED's at its best until it's tuned.
So Nick should connect in a similar way and remove turns until the brightest illumination occurs.

It's a good method, will likely adopt it here too :)

For reference, genuine L3's are the same diameter as solder tubes and 70 turns of 26AWG are on my SEC 18-1's L3.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 06, 2018, 08:16:53 PM
Great progress
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 06, 2018, 10:50:59 PM
... 
  The battery input voltages are 4v, 8v, or 12v. But, the transistor is getting hot on any of those voltages. ...   
Hi Nick,

Well, I forgot to comment what you wrote above. It is true that the (2S)C1815 has a very wide range for its hFE specification, it is selected into groups. The hFE can be any value from 70 to 140 for the O suffix, 120 to 240 for the Y suffix, 200 to 400 for GR suffix and 350 to 700 for BL suffix. You can see these suffixes marked on the case and it is possible you happen to have a type with very high hFE value (if everything else is ok, that is) and the 100 kOhm base resistor may be increased to set a lower transistor current.  So let's pick a 'worst case' example when hFE is say 700 and supply voltage is 12V. If you use the 100 kOhm base resistor (which is in parallel with the crystal) then the base current is 0.12mA and the DC collector current then 700 x 0.12mA = 84mA. From a 4V supply, the base current is 0.04mA and the collector current would be then 28mA. This latter collector current can already warm up (but not so hot) the transistor from 4V and surely make it hot from 8 and especially from a 12V supply.

The solution is to use a 1 MegaOhm trimmer potmeter instead of the fix 100 kOhm, even a 470 kOhm in series with the 100 kOhm can reduce the transistor heat.
Please measure the DC current taken from 12V to learn about the actual current which flows into the oscillator when the 100 kOhm base resistor is used. IT is very good you reduced the supply voltage to 4V to see how warm or hot the transistor in that case.  From 4V, it cannot be as hot as from 8 or 12V though. 

Can you see a sinewave-like waveform on the collector versus the negative rail?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 07, 2018, 03:59:06 PM
   Gyula:   Here are some scope shots of my oscillator running on a 3.5MHz and a 7.2Mhz crystal. Scope probes are on the collector/emitter.  Even though I have shortened my L3 coil, it does not do as well using a 13.5MHz crystal, as with the two crystals mentioned above.   
  And now it stopped working, so I need to look into that, again.  This is a very touchy circuit, no doubt about that.
  I will try to add some more resistance, to see if I can lower the transistor heating at 8 and 12v. 
  I don't have any high voltage near field wireless effects, as yet. Are there supposed to be wireless effects at this voltage???
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 07, 2018, 05:09:47 PM
Hi Nick,

Very nice progress, thanks.  You have unusually high voltage amplitudes across the collector and emitter (264 Vpp or 222 Vpp), what is the supply voltage you used when took the snapshots?  Maybe a 10 times division is missing at the probe or on the scope vertical amplitude settings?   26.4 Vpp or 22.2 Vpp would sound more realistic.  The shape of the waveform is ok for an untuned collector choke without resonance.
Do you have the same choke coil in the collector you showed earlier in a photo of your oscillator with the power transistor?

You wrote:   "I don't have any high voltage near field wireless effects, as yet.  Are there supposed to be wireless effects at this voltage???"

Well, if you have the choke coil in the collector you had showed, then it has a ferrite core too if I recall correctly so that most of the field is confined in and close to the body of the ferrite choke. This may greatly reduce 'wireless effects'. 
A coil like the L3 has bigger mechanical sizes and no ferromagnetic core to collect and confine the field, so much more 'wireless effect' can manifest in its vicinity.  A normal AV plug with a white LED may give some brightness though when you touch the common diode input as single wire of the AV plug to the collector.

Hopefully your transistor did not get cooked by the heat developed in it.  What is the input current? you could use a DC ampermeter simply in series with one of the input supply rails.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 07, 2018, 06:49:03 PM
All--  I found two good transistors for the Crystal oscillator circuit that can handle higher power and thus produce more light using higher voltage.  These are the two:  MJE181 and BD243C.  I did not seek these out but had them on hand and just tried them.  Both can handle up to 30 volts input into the crystal circuit.  They get warm at that voltage but a simple heat sink is all you need.   The little booster power supply gizmo (like Slider is using also) trips out if the amperage gets too much and with these two transistors it keep right on going at 30 volts. 

Nick---  You are right about the 13.5MHz crystal circuit being touchy. The L3 coil being the most critical component I have found.  This is the best coil for my build:  It is a paper tube wrapped with about 90 turns of 26ga wire.  I used a AA battery as the diameter form.  The coil is roughly 5/8"dia x 3 1/8" long.  It has about 2 ohms resistance and is about 100uh.   The fist inductor (choke) is not nearly as critical and I have used ones from 1mh to 3.3mh successfully.  The final lightbulb LED board is another thing that can give you vastly different results as far as real light production.

Gyula---Your help on this project is greatly appreciated.  You fill in the gaps in technical knowledge that some of us have.  I set out to be an EE but never got there.  You give me a glimpse of what the world of true electrical engineering looks like.  Some things you explain I understand and some I don't-----but it all helps.

Slider---Your idea for using a simple EBay voltage booster power supply really helps on this project.  The one I am using has a built in over amperage cutout feature that saves me from causing little transistors to produce that annoying blue smoke. Ha.

All---Slayer (Gary Bluer) came up with a neat little 3 choke exciter that I replicated yesterday. With a few modifications it will run these led 110v lightbulb arrays.  Here is a short video of what it looks like:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQPpUMIF9T8
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 07, 2018, 08:14:09 PM
All--  I found two good transistors for the Crystal oscillator circuit that can handle higher power and thus produce more light using higher voltage.  These are the two:  MJE181 and BD243C.  I did not seek these out but had them on hand and just tried them.  Both can handle up to 30 volts input into the crystal circuit.  They get warm at that voltage but a simple heat sink is all you need.   The little booster power supply gizmo (like Slider is using also) trips out if the amperage gets too much and with these two transistors it keep right on going at 30 volts. 

Nick---  You are right about the 13.5MHz crystal circuit being touchy. The L3 coil being the most critical component I have found.  This is the best coil for my build:  It is a paper tube wrapped with about 90 turns of 26ga wire.  I used a AA battery as the diameter form.  The coil is roughly 5/8"dia x 3 1/8" long.  It has about 2 ohms resistance and is about 100uh.   The fist inductor (choke) is not nearly as critical and I have used ones from 1mh to 3.3mh successfully.  The final lightbulb LED board is another thing that can give you vastly different results as far as real light production.

Gyula---Your help on this project is greatly appreciated.  You fill in the gaps in technical knowledge that some of us have.  I set out to be an EE but never got there.  You give me a glimpse of what the world of true electrical engineering looks like.  Some things you explain I understand and some I don't-----but it all helps.

Slider---Your idea for using a simple EBay voltage booster power supply really helps on this project.  The one I am using has a built in over amperage cutout feature that saves me from causing little transistors to produce that annoying blue smoke. Ha.

All---Slayer (Gary Bluer) came up with a neat little 3 choke exciter that I replicated yesterday. With a few modifications it will run these led 110v lightbulb arrays.  Here is a short video of what it looks like:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQPpUMIF9T8
Hi lidmotor. thanks for sharing. is indutor 1 mega haner ? ( 1000 uh ) ?
thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 07, 2018, 08:36:13 PM
erfandl---The inductor is 1000uh and a 3300uh.  I got the 3300uh (3.3 milihenry?) off the circuit board that came out of a 50w OptoLight led bulb.  The little transformer looking thing on the board (that is really just an inductor) also worked.  I can't remember what the value was. 
  I hope you try that 3 choke Exciter circuit that Slayer came up and put your spin on it to light up these 110v led lightbulb arrays.  What is happening in that circuit carries over to what we have been doing here---make light with as little power as possible.

Cheers---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 07, 2018, 10:42:02 PM
Hi Itsu,

Very good, many thanks for everything.

I suspect the toroidal core starts saturating from the DC component of the collector current.  When you have time please measure the input current taken from the 12V battery.
Core saturation can cause the sine wave distortion we see across the tank (the yellow waveforms). And if you measure the variable capacitor pF value after it is set to the best tuned position, you may find it higher than what would be needed for tuning a 8.2 uH coil to 13.5 MHz, this would be a sure indication of certain core saturation which involves a less than 8.2 uH.

Trying to reduce core saturation, would you make the tap at the 3rd and / or at the 2nd turns instead of the present 4th? I know this may sound strange but I think it would be worth testing. This reduces the Amperturns for the core from the collector current point of view but also reduces the AC impedance for the collector, on which the transistor can amplify.  But the increased step-up transformation in the coil may partially compensate for that.   Try to set similar input current by the 100 kOHm trimmer pot when using the 3rd or 2nd tap, should it change but of course you can set it also for the highest output (maybe with some distortion returning...).

The spectrum of the waveform that drives L3 has many harmonics due to the suspected core saturation,  so energy is distributed rather than confined to the base frequency (13.5 MHz).
Okay on detuning the variable cap and the 40 MHz returns, we need not bother about it,  the loaded and detuned tank will have higher impedance for the collector nearer to 40 MHz than around 13.5 MHz, that is all. 

Two question if I may: Did you remove the capacitor from between the base and emitter?  Is the 22 pF or some other value is still needed between the collector and emitter for the oscillator to work?  (Switch the supply voltage on and of when the 22pF is changed or removed.)

Gyula

Gyula,

i have a hard time to accuratly measure the input current of this circuit at this frequency.
I normally use my current probe and match this up with a csr (1 ohm in this case), but they do not match up here.

So i then normally trust the csr over the current probe.

Here i have a 1 Ohm 1% inductionfree resistor in the minus line to the battery.
See screenshot for blue collector/emitter voltage and yellow the voltage across this csr.
So we seem to have 50mA rms input current (@ 12.5V = 625mW).

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjvnQNMkqos


Concerning the 22pF cap across collector / emitter, i can remove it and it still oscillates.
The variable cap at resonance with the 4.4uH toroid measures 50pF.

I will be playing with the tap later this weekend.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 08, 2018, 12:43:42 AM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the current measurements. I think you could pull out the crystal from the circuit and measure directly with a DC Ampermeter (DMM or analog) the non-oscillating input current, this would also be a kind of information for the current. And then try to plug in the crystal while the DC Ampermeter is still in the circuit to see how it changes.  By the way, what kOhm was the 100 k potmeter set to when you checked the input current?
I can see filter capacitors across the input 12.5V supply voltage, this is very good you use such. If you recall the Doc's SEC circuits he included a multistage LC filter in both supply rails between his oscillator and supply voltage source, so the RF energy going towards the supply was gradually blocked by the series L and parallel C members of the filter. I am not saying you need to build such LC filter of course and measure current behind the filter, I just mention this.
Would like to ask: when you measured the variable capacitor as 50 pF, was the 22 pF placed between the collector-emitter at the time you tuned the tank with the variable cap to maximum brightness? I assume no scope probe was attached to the collector or to the tank during this time.

Normally a 4.4 uH coil needs about 32 pF tuning cap to resonate at 13.56 MHz. A 50 pf cap involves having a 2.76 uH coil to resonate at 13.56 MHz. So if the 22 pF was present between the collector-emitter, then its capacitance was also in parallel with the tank via the low AC impedance of the battery and filter caps, hence probably there is no or only a little core saturion in that case.
IF the 22 pF was removed earlier than you checked the variable cap,  then the coil had only 2.76 uH inductance, this would indicate a stronger core saturation in that case.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 08, 2018, 02:20:24 AM
   Gyula:   Here's a couple of pics (below) so that you and others can see what my crystal oscillator is looking like, at the moment. 
   I removed the AC filter and capacitor, just left the 0.1uf one, at the input. I installed a 221 choke, but I don't know it's value.
   I also made holders for both the crystal as well as the transistor. So that they can be easily swapped out. 
   The scope is on the 10x setting, as that is the probe that I'm using. But, the probe switch was on 1 instead to 10 times setting. Thanks for the tip.   C1850 transistor still runs ok on 4v, but still gets hot at 8v, and will melt at 12v input. I'll see about putting in a trim pot on the base. There are still two 1k resistors, and a small pot on the board, which I'm not using. Perhaps I should.

   Lidmotor: Thanks for the info on winding of the L3. However, your L3 seams a bit longer than the normal Doc's L3 coil that he uses.  How long is the Doc's L3, (just the windings), the Doc made L3 you have at home?  And I'll try to make one like that, first.

    The two scope shots are while running on batteries, first one is on 4v, and the second one on 12v.
    The last pic is the oscillator running on NO input, or better said, running a 4v input, but with no negative ground connected on the battery. Stray AC, perhaps.
   
   
   
   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 08, 2018, 12:00:46 PM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the current measurements. I think you could pull out the crystal from the circuit and measure directly with a DC Ampermeter (DMM or analog) the non-oscillating input current, this would also be a kind of information for the current. And then try to plug in the crystal while the DC Ampermeter is still in the circuit to see how it changes.  By the way, what kOhm was the 100 k potmeter set to when you checked the input current?
I can see filter capacitors across the input 12.5V supply voltage, this is very good you use such. If you recall the Doc's SEC circuits he included a multistage LC filter in both supply rails between his oscillator and supply voltage source, so the RF energy going towards the supply was gradually blocked by the series L and parallel C members of the filter. I am not saying you need to build such LC filter of course and measure current behind the filter, I just mention this.
Would like to ask: when you measured the variable capacitor as 50 pF, was the 22 pF placed between the collector-emitter at the time you tuned the tank with the variable cap to maximum brightness? I assume no scope probe was attached to the collector or to the tank during this time.

Normally a 4.4 uH coil needs about 32 pF tuning cap to resonate at 13.56 MHz. A 50 pf cap involves having a 2.76 uH coil to resonate at 13.56 MHz. So if the 22 pF was present between the collector-emitter, then its capacitance was also in parallel with the tank via the low AC impedance of the battery and filter caps, hence probably there is no or only a little core saturion in that case.
IF the 22 pF was removed earlier than you checked the variable cap,  then the coil had only 2.76 uH inductance, this would indicate a stronger core saturation in that case.

Thanks,  Gyula

Gyula,

I just pulled out the crystal when in resonance and measure with an analoge DC amp meter the current in the
12V supply line to be 62mA.

Inserting the crystal (activating the leds) lowers the current on this meter to 50mA.

The 100K pot was and is set at 56K.

I only pulled out the 22pF cap at the very end to see if it still oscillates which it does, so the 50pF was
measured when this 22pF was still inserted as was the 8pF scope probe attached.

I did not see the distorted output signal as i showed in this post:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg523338/#msg523338
so indeed i think there was no or little saturation.

Not sure why i was not able to tune the thing to that situation, could be the inserted 1 Ohm csr
prevents this from happening.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 08, 2018, 02:17:40 PM
Hi Nick,

The choke coil labeled as 221 is certainly a 220 uH coil, see explanation why here:
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/23837/values-of-inductance-what-is-the-base-value

No problem that it is not a 1000 uH. A 220 uH coil has an inductive reactance of XL=10 kOhm (already more than enough) at 7.25 MHz frequency and you can learn about other values for other crystal frequencies you happen to have here:
http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/inductive-reactance-calculator.aspx

For a trimmer pot, try to use at least a 470 kOhm or even higher (1 MOHm) for the 8 or 12V tests. You can connect a series 100 k or even a 220 kOhm resistor with the trimmer pot. It would be good to check the input current to learn about its actual value as I already wrote. 

Thanks for the pictures. In the last picture it is surely the stray mains AC field that makes that very faint LED seen.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 08, 2018, 02:54:52 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay on the input current measurements.  It is sure that the 50 mA is the reality when the crystal is in the circuit. Analog Ampermeters are a good choice for averaging and "smoothing" AC currents in most cases (not always though).

Regarding the measured 50 pF for the variable cap I believe you diconnected its 2 pins from the tank circuit to measure it with a C meter, right? 
Thinking further on this, if the 50 pF tuning cap was needed to get resonance for the tank, then a certain saturation should have happened because as I wrote a 2.76 uH coil is needed to give resonance at 13.56 MHz with 50 pF. It is ok that the 22 pF and the probe's 8 pF was across the collector and emitter but these latter values were 'seeing' the 4 turn cap and not the full 18 turns so their effect must have been minimal. If the probe's 8 pF was across the tank and not across the collector-emitter, than we deduce 8 pF from the 50 pF, we still have 40-42 pF tuning cap for the tank and this is still 10 pF higher than what would be needed for a 4.4 uH coil. So saturaion is in suspect and perhaps a tap at 3 or 2 turns may help on this.  Any time next week if you feel like checking this would be appreciated.
Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 08, 2018, 03:30:40 PM
   Ok, thanks again.   I looked at the inductor chart, and saw the 221 choke as a 220uH inductor. So, that part should be ok.
   It seams strange that the red led (last pic) lights with no stray AC. As the oscillator is isolated, and there is no earth ground connection, nor any AC current lines or anything from the AC being used. Yet it lights a bit. But, I'll turn off my breakers, just to be sure that that is what is causing it to light. You never know...

    My set up seams to like the 3.5Mhz, and 7,2MHz better than the 13.5Mhz crystal. I have already shortened the L3. I have seen how the Doc has several different sizes of L3, also.
   Perhaps the "effect" can happen as well, with other value crystals, not just with the 13.5Mhz.
   After viewing Lidmotor's video, where he is using his crystal oscillator running off of a 9v battery, I can see that I need to work on the wireless aspect of this project. As yet, I'm not seeing any wireless effects, or maybe just a tiny bit, and I'm not sure why.

   So according to the data provided by Itsu, would you think that he may be getting closer to OU? Or still has a ways to go.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 08, 2018, 05:53:19 PM


Thanks Gyula,

i measured again the variable cap after it was in resonance by desoldering the 2 leads and using my LCR meter, it reads 47pF.
The toroid coil measured the same way measures 4.33uH.

I will play with the taps later today / tomorrow.




Nick,

not sure why you think there would be any OU in play here, i personally do not expect any.

Itsu

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 08, 2018, 08:47:31 PM
erfandl---The inductor is 1000uh and a 3300uh.  I got the 3300uh (3.3 milihenry?) off the circuit board that came out of a 50w OptoLight led bulb.  The little transformer looking thing on the board (that is really just an inductor) also worked.  I can't remember what the value was. 
  I hope you try that 3 choke Exciter circuit that Slayer came up and put your spin on it to light up these 110v led lightbulb arrays.  What is happening in that circuit carries over to what we have been doing here---make light with as little power as possible.

Cheers---Lidmotor
Hi lidmotor. thanks for reply. I build the 3 choke exciter but the performance of circuit output is poor. the cap is 22 pf. I tested with 30pf trimmer but not any change. inductors is 1mh. power source is 3.7 volt battery. the circuit starting oscillate only with my hand.





Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 08, 2018, 09:47:27 PM
Hi Nick,

Yes, the best way to close out stray field from the AC mains within the rooms of your house is to turn off the breakers.
If the red LED continues remaining faintly lit, then the next step would be to take the coil + LED assembly (or your oscillator circuit as a whole) out from the room and / or from the house and see its brightness whether changing or whatever.
Watch for the brightness when removing the connecting wires one by one while attempting to take the circuit assembly out of the room.

The data provided by Itsu is based on conventional i.e. known science. The aim would be to build oscillator circuits to provide high enough RF voltage which is able to substitute a function or signal generator to replicate Doc's setup with the air core coil + LED board as he showed.  From Lidmotor and others replications and tests it is clear that there is no need to use the 13.56 MHz frequency, it is not 'magic'.  Notice that the Doc has not claimed overunity.  So far the tests I have been aware of shows higher achievable efficiency with such setups driving a LED lamp than driving the same lamp by its original off the shelf circuits to get similar brightnesses.  Efficiency for the driving circuits applied in the off the shelf LED lamps may range from say 80 to 90%, not really higher.  The conversion efficiency of the LEDs themselves from their DC input to light is a totally different question.

Gyula

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 08, 2018, 10:03:43 PM
Hi erfandl,

What is the transistor type you are using in that circuit? 

IF you use a 1 MegaOhm resistor for biasing the base from the positive supply rail, then try to reduce it to the some hundred kOhm values and see how brightness may change. Do not go lower than say 47-56 kOhm though but this much depends on the hFE value of the transistor.  IF you find improvement in brightness when you reduced the 1 MOhm, then try to change the 30 pF trimmer and also try to add the 22 pF in parallel with the trimmer capacitor to find any chance for higher brightness. Do this trimmer cap setting again whenever you change the base resistor value down from the 1 MOhm to find better and better operation.

Gyula
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 08, 2018, 10:24:48 PM

Gyula,

i tested with the tap on 3 and 2 turns.

At 2 turns the oscillator won't work without any virtual ground near by the leds, so i connected a cliplead again to the junction of the 2  1N4148 diodes.

I tuned for max output on the leds by turning the 100 trimmer pot and the variable cap.
The screenshot 1 below shows the signals where blue is the output (3 turns on the toroid) and purple the collector/emitter voltage.

The 100K pot was set to 18K and the current drawn was 110mA (when pulling the x-tal it goes to 150mA).

No saturation / distortion was seen, but there are many peaks across the spectrum still, see screenshot 2

The variable cap measures 37.5pF using my LCD meter.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59rlTNUu68&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59rlTNUu68&feature=youtu.be)   

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 08, 2018, 10:51:54 PM
Thanks Itsu.  Regarding the virtual ground to start up the oscillator: have you tried to connect the common point of the diodes to the negative (or maybe the positive) supply rail with a short piece of wire?   That my also help start up but without that longer piece of wire. 
If it works like that you may increase the potmeter setting to a higher value like 50-70 kOhm maybe to reduce dissiparion if the circuit lets it doing.
Very likely you need to retune the tank, we do not know how many pF the back plate of the LED board introduces into the tank, maybe it would detune the tank too far from 13.56 MHz, so keep this in mind.  it is possible the variable capacitor should be turned to its minimal pF setting or even to remove it and yet the back plate capacitance would be still higher than the originally needed 30-35 pF. 

Addition: with the tap at the 2nd turn, the 22 pF capacitor between the collector-emitter may need to be modified to a higher value to increase feedback, this way the oscillator may start-up without any virtual ground, this can be true for the tap at the 3rd turn too.   Try to set not higher than 60-70 mA collector current but that may be really needed for the 230V LED board. 

Do you have the specification of the LED board the manufacturer gave on it?  Input voltage I guess is 230V AC originally.   Now is the brightness we see close to the brightness this LED board produces from the mains with its original internal circuit?  I think these questions would be put by Nick too...   ;)

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 08, 2018, 10:55:34 PM
Hi erfandl,

What is the transistor type you are using in that circuit? 

IF you use a 1 MegaOhm resistor for biasing the base from the positive supply rail, then try to reduce it to the some hundred kOhm values and see how brightness may change. Do not go lower than say 47-56 kOhm though but this much depends on the hFE value of the transistor.  IF you find improvement in brightness when you reduced the 1 MOhm, then try to change the 30 pF trimmer and also try to add the 22 pF in parallel with the trimmer capacitor to find any chance for higher brightness. Do this trimmer cap setting again whenever you change the base resistor value down from the 1 MOhm to find better and better operation.

Gyula
Hi gyula. I used 2n2222 transistor. OK tomorrow testing with 100 kohm or lower resistor and share the result.
thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 09, 2018, 03:46:05 AM
  Gyula:  I was wondering how you see the calculations on Itsu's device, so far.  80 to 90 percent?  Which can be obtain by any efficient inverter. Of course, no offense to Itsu. As I appreciate his tests and videos, immensely. Along with all his help.

  Well, one of the problems I see, is that these little transistors can't handle 20 to 25v. Not even 12v, without a meltdown. In order to be able to replicate what the Doc has shown when using his SG at 20v, and no ground.
Yet, even he is producing a limited output, no where near what the grid powered bulbs can provide. Maybe half the brightness, or so.   
   I can't even get an answer concerning the proper way to wind an L3, other than on a battery. Although I do appreciate that information, and Lidmotor's measurements on the L3 coil.

   So, if the Doc wants to see other people replicating his ideas, then he needs to provide the needed specs. Or at least close to it. That L3 coil, along with the crystal is the heart of his circuit. Yet, he has given no info on the coil. At least not lately. 
The Doc told me once that, "no use kicking a dead horse", and that I should get a horse that I can ride.
Because I didn't have a scope or SG, back then.  And, I'm still looking for that horse... now that I can play ball. Little league, with my limited voltage SG.
    Sorry guys, but,  I think I need a Snickers bar.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 09, 2018, 05:42:26 AM
   Itsu:   I don't expect to find OU, either. But, I'm hoping to find something useful and practical in what the Doc has been showing. It would help to know exactly how the right L3 is wound.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on July 09, 2018, 05:47:15 AM
HI NICKZ. IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE STUFF, AND YOU BEING WELL VERSE IN ELECTRONIC.
IT IS AS EASY AS ABC..ALL YOU NEED IS A ROUND ELECTRICAL CONDUIT, 15 OR 20 MM,
THEN YOU NEED A PIECE OF 2 M ENAMELLE COPPER WIRE. THEN JUST WIND THE THE LOT
NEATLY ON THE TUBE. THEN YOU SWITCH ON YOUR CIRCUIT. THEN TO TUNE UNWIND TILL YOU GET THE
LED TO LIGHT, AND THEN YOU CUT AND SOLDER, DESMOND IS YOUR UNCLE.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 09, 2018, 09:31:55 AM
Hi nick,  The MPSA06 was a type close to what was being studied. What we have is what we are allowed to have.
In sorting through that episode we are told to stay tuned. The real transistor is not commercially available. It has an
hfe of 400-750 and a Vbe of as low as 0.17 volts. Most of the projects do not rely on special transistors.

So there was more than what meets the eye. I do see that the Doctor usually socially concerned and careful.
He was still off and on with the big semi conductor people. That is how the corporations operate,
everyone waits on them, sometimes lifetime waiting and never getting past their lawyers that control them.
That is where the high horses roam.

I am not sure everyone followed the harmonics in general. The signal generator can be set to square wave and duty cycle
set to 25 % or 43% so that the width is set less than 50. To see the effect. The (AV) or half rectifier diodes effect can
also reduce the width of the sine. Maybe someone can show the effect of narrowing on the harmonics.
Because the negative resistance oscillator frequency becomes lowers when a load is applied it would be nice
to reuse what is left. If the harmonics behave the job is less difficult.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 09, 2018, 10:38:14 AM
Gyula. I tested with 100K pot resistor but nothing ! maybe the circuit is fake by Gbluer ?

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 09, 2018, 11:35:21 AM

Gyula,

i will tinker again this evening.

concerning the used led strip, i found the following website showing an example and put down some specs below:
https://www.beslist.nl/klussen/d0018768908/R7S_LED_Lamp_11W_Warm_Wit_135mm.html (https://www.beslist.nl/klussen/d0018768908/R7S_LED_Lamp_11W_Warm_Wit_135mm.html)

# Replacement for 150W 240V halogene lamp
# 11W @ 90-260V AC
# Type LED Epistar 5050 SMD   

It has 3 strips (parallel??) and i use only 1 strip, meaning it can handle/supply about 11 / 3 = 3.6W (50W equivalent)
I estimate the brightness i had yesterday on about 1/3th of it being on the grid.



Nick,

concerning the L3 coil, i found this website/picture:
http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SEC18_1.htm.html (http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SEC18_1.htm.html)

Comparing with the 1N4148 diodes (3.5mm long) i guestimate that the coil has the following dimensions:
former diameter: 20mm
former length:   50mm
nbr of turns:    70

But its like seychelles says, its not that critical.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 12:21:57 PM
Gyula. I tested with 100K pot resistor but nothing ! maybe the circuit is fake by Gbluer ?
Hi Erfandl,
No, forget it, it is surely not fake.  Pay attention to all the comments GBluer made under his video and under Lidmotor's replication video.   Hint: possibility for choke coil resonance   and one of ways you can tune this oscillator is by adjusting the input supply voltage and watch peaks in brightness.  OF course, this is very component dependent.

What input voltage and power your LED board (you show for this circuit at the bottom of the previous page) is specified for? 

Lidmotor replication showed a 1 W LED probably a single LED and not an array and also GBLuer showed a 4 W LED and estimated the brightness of half of that by his eye.   I guess the LEDs Lidmotor used needs  3.5 -4 V input maximum and the LED GBluer used may also need less than say 12V (my rough estimation).   

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 09, 2018, 12:45:45 PM
Hi Erfandl,
No, forget it, it is surely not fake.  Pay attention to all the comments GBluer made under his video and under Lidmotor's replication video.   Hint: possibility for choke coil resonance   and one of ways you can tune this oscillator is by adjusting the input supply voltage and watch peaks in brightness.  OF course, this is very component dependent.

What input voltage and power your LED board (you show for this circuit at the bottom of the previous page) is specified for? 

Lidmotor replication showed a 1 W LED probably a single LED and not an array and also GBLuer showed a 4 W LED and estimated the brightness of half of that by his eye.   I guess the LEDs Lidmotor used needs  3.5 -4 V input maximum and the LED GBluer used may also need less than say 12V (my rough estimation).   

Gyula
thanks for reply. input source is 3.7 volt battery @ full charged level. now I using simple white led the brightness is good but it cannot be working with 1.5 volt ( like Gbuler circuit ) output voltage is 3 volt

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 12:52:50 PM
I wonder whether your circuit now works as an oscillator  or the 3.7V battery drives the LED via the collector choke and via the series diode to the LED?   :-\
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 09, 2018, 01:02:09 PM
I wonder whether your circuit now works as an oscillator  or the 3.7V battery drives the LED via the collector choke and via the series diode to the LED?   :-\
I wondered too :|
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 03:08:12 PM
I wondered too :|
In your above photos on the circuit I cannot see the capacitor which originally connected between choke L3 (labeled as negative out) and the negative supply rail.  That series LC gives the feedback for the oscillator, without feedback there can be no oscillations.   Sorry if you have that capacitor on the board in the above pictures but I cannot see it.   :(
Another issue:   In the original schematic, the 1N4148 diode output (labeled as positive out)  is connected to one of the LED pins.  Where did you connect the other pin of the  LED ?  Originally it connected to the variable capacitor and the negative output of the choke L3,  but where did you connect it?   It is lit....   and this is why I asked whether it is lit by oscillations or ?? 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 09, 2018, 03:17:56 PM
Have done a lot with the GBluer circuit over the weekend and can make some observations on your struggles erfandl.
My own version works, but hasn't the output brightness shown in either GBluer's or Lidmotor's versions.
1.5V AAA powered, using 1000uH axial inductors.
The circuit doesn't start up on its own with my breadboard build, it needs the transistor Collector to be momentarily grounded.
Tuning with an AM/FM radio variable capacitor sort of works, but only from max brightness to minimum brightness, with no sweet spot.
As the var cap is turned, the ground to Base LED fades out - I note that your LED isn't on at all, so the tuning appears to be out of range at least.
It'll run an LED on an AV plug directly from the Collector.
Brightness of the whole thing increases markedly, if you sit both of the input inductors right next to each other. The circuit suddenly flips into a higher output if they are touching lengthwise.
Transistor type affects output, based on hFE and the usual factors, so it's not a switching situation.
2SC3198 is best so far, but i'll try MPSA06 and MPSA18 this morning.
Extra 1000uH inductors in parallel dim the output, which I thought was odd.

All in all, my own has a long way to go too.

Shown here with a 1W LED on the output.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 09, 2018, 04:30:21 PM
In your above photos on the circuit I cannot see the capacitor which originally connected between choke L3 (labeled as negative out) and the negative supply rail.  That series LC gives the feedback for the oscillator, without feedback there can be no oscillations.   Sorry if you have that capacitor on the board in the above pictures but I cannot see it.   :(
Another issue:   In the original schematic, the 1N4148 diode output (labeled as positive out)  is connected to one of the LED pins.  Where did you connect the other pin of the  LED ?  Originally it connected to the variable capacitor and the negative output of the choke L3,  but where did you connect it?   It is lit....   and this is why I asked whether it is lit by oscillations or ?? 

Gyula
yeah capacitor is connected between L3 and negative rail. the other led pin is connected to variable capacitor and negative output.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 09, 2018, 04:33:27 PM
Gyula,

i will tinker again this evening.

concerning the used led strip, i found the following website showing an example and put down some specs below:
https://www.beslist.nl/klussen/d0018768908/R7S_LED_Lamp_11W_Warm_Wit_135mm.html (https://www.beslist.nl/klussen/d0018768908/R7S_LED_Lamp_11W_Warm_Wit_135mm.html)

# Replacement for 150W 240V halogene lamp
# 11W @ 90-260V AC
# Type LED Epistar 5050 SMD   

It has 3 strips (parallel??) and i use only 1 strip, meaning it can handle/supply about 11 / 3 = 3.6W (50W equivalent)
I estimate the brightness i had yesterday on about 1/3th of it being on the grid.



Nick,

concerning the L3 coil, i found this website/picture:
http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SEC18_1.htm.html (http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/Dr_Stiffler/SEC18_1.htm.html)

Comparing with the 1N4148 diodes (3.5mm long) i guestimate that the coil has the following dimensions:
former diameter: 20mm
former length:   50mm
nbr of turns:    70

But its like seychelles says, its not that critical.

Itsu

   Itsu:  Thanks for the info on the L3.
   The mag wire he used looks fairly thick, and with fewer turns that what I'm using now. So, I'll try to remove some more turns, and see what happens. But, I think that to actually see the effect, we may not be very close, at all. And considering the low light output from the LED, as compared to the input source.
   Could you please PM me the shipping order number, again, so that I can verify that it is your order that has come to the post office, instead of to me house.
   BTW: Has Dr. Stiffler mentioned what transistor he is currently using on his latest tests?  No?
As the transistor he is using now, (may be that critical), in order to see the proper effects, along with a 13.5MHz tuned L3 coil.I think that it's there, that the mystery lies, and which the Doc is not mentioning.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 09, 2018, 04:39:07 PM
Nick - good point, I think the presumption of any Dr. Stiffler demo is MPSA06, as uV mentioned and as are fitted to SEC-18's. But it would be good to know. I've also never seen a comparison vid of an MPSA06 and 1 of those special transistors, perhaps side by side running something.


Update: some progress with the GBluer circuit.
A 120+120 of 40AWG on a ferrite core dramatically improved the Base LED, to the point of looking 'normal' for this circuit lol
The Collector output 1mH axial inductor remains the same.
The 1W LED looks the same as it did in the previous pic, so you can tell the difference that the wound version has made.
It still doesn't auto start up with a 1Meg resistor, or any value down to 100K.
 

Update again: Holy buckets of fish...check out what happened when the 3rd axial inductor was removed and the 1W LED was connected to the Collector diode and Base (2SC3198) !!!
The Base LED was knocked out of action and the var cap does nothing, but the light output of the 1W LED is vastly improved.
No idea what it's done to the current input yet.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 09, 2018, 05:00:00 PM
   Slider:   Aren't you limiting yourself to having no wireless output, by using an led as an indicator, and too low a voltage to see any capacitive or wireless effect? As you can't raise the voltage past 4v, with that 3.5v led there, as you probably already know.
Or not?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 09, 2018, 05:42:50 PM
Yep Nick....was just shocked at the difference, considering it's a 1W on the output.
From here, a more traditional Slayer L2 could be put on the output is the thinking, similar to Gary's latest video.
Current measured through a 1ohm resistor this way is 27mA, so that's not so great, but is still very low for the LED brightness. Batt voltage is 1.383V
Interestingly enough, the other way around with the inductor on the output i'm measuring 32mA with the 1W LED removed, but 28mA with it in place. The Base LED remains the same brightness, but the 1W LED drops the current by 4mA.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 09, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
  Slider:  Yet, that 1 watt led is only partially lit. And the small led is only limiting what you can do.
You will get a JT type of output using a 1.5v battery as the source, that's all. No capacitive wireless output.
  Is this all just about getting some light from a tiny bit of input power?  How exciting is that... 5 minutes worth.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 06:00:22 PM
yeah capacitor is connected between L3 and negative rail. the other led pin is connected to variable capacitor and negative output.
Okay then, your oscillator works.  Try to seek for resonance with the chokes,  especially L3 and make the trimmer capacitor to cover a higher pF range.  (GBluer indicated a 2-512 pF variable.)  The base resistance then may also be varied. 
Each oscillator has its own 'soul'...   :)   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 09, 2018, 06:55:50 PM
Gyula---Your comment, "Each oscillator has it's own soul."  is so true.  This latest G. Bluer circuit is no different.  Gary builds weird circuits---always has and he doesn't explain much in his video.  To me they are puzzles and going back many years I have enjoyed them.  His 'Slayer Exciter' like the Joule Thief is a classic.  This 3 choke exciter is a 'tinker toy' and meant to be played around with.  I did get the original circuit to run but quickly modified it (like Slider and Gary are doing).  Mine does not self start so I am using a BBQ lighter spark near it to jump start the oscillator.  I eliminated the 1M resistor.  Here is a tip: Just take two chokes and put them side by side and wire them up to the NPN in a regular Joule Thief circuit.  If you get good led performance like that you know that the chokes and the transistor like each other OK.  If that works then it is just a case of reconfiguring the two chokes into the new circuit.  The third choke can be replaced with a Slayer Exciter tower if you want and the cap doesn't do much I found.  Keep the 1n4148 diode and led going from the (-) to the base for this thing to run right.  I'm am not seeing the super low amp draw on mine that Gary shows but it will run down to about .6v.  Any 2N2222 type transistor works fine. Stay under 4v to keep it alive.

All--Dr. Stiffler's latest video is about using three coils resonating together ----driven by a function generator.  I think I know why he is doing this and where he is heading.  Remember these days?  Guess what that 'special frequency' is that he talks about in this video from 2011.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lbYjqU48Mw

I wonder if he had his function generator (set at that 'special frequency) connected to something near that AL block sitting on the far right side of the elevated board?  Hummm.

Even if this device was not 'self-running',as people thought, to me the fact that it worked at all is amazing.  Now that I have a signal generator perhaps I can replicate this experiment.  I always thought that perhaps he just had another SEC running near by ----but what if it was just his signal generator broadcasting at 13.6 Mhz pumped out at about 1 watt.

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on July 09, 2018, 08:00:27 PM
A direct link to Stiffler's latest video

demonstrating "the Load does not impact the source "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxRbckLedjU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxRbckLedjU)
schematic and more to follow.
respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 09, 2018, 08:26:04 PM
Okay then, your oscillator works.  Try to seek for resonance with the chokes,  especially L3 and make the trimmer capacitor to cover a higher pF range.  (GBluer indicated a 2-512 pF variable.)  The base resistance then may also be varied. 
Each oscillator has its own 'soul'...   :)
thanks. but there is no 512 pF trimmer available  in my country. I found only 0-120 pF trimmer. is that help me ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 08:42:13 PM
Yes, it can help you.  And you can always add fix capacitors in parallel with it if the 120 pF is not high enough.  (Of course the setting range suffers.)    You may have access to old AM pocket radio in which a plastic cased variable capacitor can be found, normally such has 2 x 260 or 2 x 300 pF variables.    Or you collect a range of fix capacitors like 22, 47, 100,  200 pF and place them in parallel in gradual combinations. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 09, 2018, 09:08:58 PM
Thanks Itsu.  Regarding the virtual ground to start up the oscillator: have you tried to connect the common point of the diodes to the negative (or maybe the positive) supply rail with a short piece of wire?   That my also help start up but without that longer piece of wire. 
If it works like that you may increase the potmeter setting to a higher value like 50-70 kOhm maybe to reduce dissiparion if the circuit lets it doing.
Very likely you need to retune the tank, we do not know how many pF the back plate of the LED board introduces into the tank, maybe it would detune the tank too far from 13.56 MHz, so keep this in mind.  it is possible the variable capacitor should be turned to its minimal pF setting or even to remove it and yet the back plate capacitance would be still higher than the originally needed 30-35 pF. 

Addition: with the tap at the 2nd turn, the 22 pF capacitor between the collector-emitter may need to be modified to a higher value to increase feedback, this way the oscillator may start-up without any virtual ground, this can be true for the tap at the 3rd turn too.   Try to set not higher than 60-70 mA collector current but that may be really needed for the 230V LED board. 

Do you have the specification of the LED board the manufacturer gave on it?  Input voltage I guess is 230V AC originally.   Now is the brightness we see close to the brightness this LED board produces from the mains with its original internal circuit?  I think these questions would be put by Nick too...   ;)

Thanks,  Gyula

Gyula,

Still tap at 2th turn.
Replacing the virtual ground cliplead by a short wire to the negative or positive rail does have the same effect, the leds turn on brightly.

In this state, i can reduce the 100K pot setting for 60mA input current (32K) but that gives less brightness on the leds.

Replacing the 22pF cap in the above situation by a 47pF or a 100pF one does not make the oscillator start without a virtual ground (short lead to + or - or cliplead).



Going to the tap on 3th turn starts the oscillator only when inserting 100pF across collector/emitter (so without any virtual ground) but with much reduced brightness on the leds (100K pot still at 32K drawing 70mA).



Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 09:17:39 PM
Hi Itsu,
Many thanks.  This may mean the series capacitance of the back plate of your LED board towards the conducting LEDs and the two diodes common point is small enough so that the variable capacitor can still be tuned for max brightness, I suppose?
Okay that a smaller current yields less brightness, I thought to reduce it so that such changes should not damage anything.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 09, 2018, 09:24:29 PM

Quote
Hi Itsu,
Many thanks.  This may mean the series capacitance of the back plate of your LED board towards the conducting LEDs and the two diodes common point is small enough so that the variable capacitor can still be tuned for max brightness, I suppose?
Okay that a smaller current yields less brightness, I thought to reduce it so that such changes should not damage anything.
Gyula

Yes,  the 6-60pF variable cap is still somewhere in its middle range.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 09:44:17 PM
Okay, that is good news, especially if the waveform across the tank remains relatively nice sine wave.


Thanks for the LED specs.  Is there any internal circuit you gutted from the board you use?  Because the original is specified as usable from 90V to 260V AC, this means a DC-DC converter embedded and fed from a full wave bridge rectifier to take care of the AC input.

The 5050 SMD LED chip generally runs at 60mA and forward voltage ranges between 3.1 and 3.4V, this is roughly 0.2 W. Your board has 14 chips, this would give 14 x 0.2 = 2.8W for that board. I do think that it is a marketing policy to advertize the original LED lamp as a 11W device, the brightness is enhanced by the mirror surfaces but the input power must be around 9 W or so and not 11 W as specified.

Here we can find the 5050 LED chip specifications
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/warm-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/317/1249/ (https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/warm-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/317/1249/) 

I think the 14 LEDs on your board are in series connection, if this is so than this means the forward voltages add up to say 3.3V x 14 = 46.2 VDC and considering 60 mA as specified, input power would be 2.77 W. 
This mean that such gutted LED board does not need 230V input, right?  I think the DC-DC converter steps down the 90 to230 V input AC to to this 46V DC and the 3 LED boards in the original lamp is connected in parallel. 

The DC input now is 12.5 x 62 mA= 0.775 W  and if the brightness would be comparable to the 2.7W DC input fed directly to such gutted board, then you have something good   :)   It would be too good to be true...
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 09, 2018, 10:30:34 PM

Yes, i removed the internal circuit (packed in yellow tape) but cannot find it now.

I tested another of the 3 led strips and with 16V i see some glow in the 14 leds appear
Crancking up the voltage untill 60mA current is drawn shows 20V, but this is not near the brightness it should be.

At 24V (200mA) the leds are very bright and the backplate start to get hot (40°C and rising).
The 3 led strips are mounted normally on a bigger alu heatsink, so i guess the 24V could be about its operating voltage.

I dont think the separate led strip will survive 46V, so probably the 14 leds are not in series.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 09, 2018, 10:54:55 PM
Hi Itsu,
Thanks for checking this.  If I recall correctly the LEDs should be connected in series on the board, when driving it capacitively through the Alu plate,  the Doc mentioned this in one of his videos and earlier for the SEC circuits he wrote a doc on the different connections "An efficient method for driving LED arrays", see attached. 

I agree the 14 LED chips on your board should be in a combination :  like 7 in series and the other 7 are also in series and these two series strings then connected in parallel.  This would be in the ballpark electrically I think.  That would mean 2 x 60 mA = 120 mA  and 7 x 3.3V = 23.1 V giving 2.7 W input,  with a brightness that is specified for this 5050 LED chip.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: iQuest on July 10, 2018, 05:21:26 AM
NickZ and others:  If I may be of help, you can get the genuine SEC 18 L3 coil information you're looking for 'straight from the horse's mouth'.  On the first page of this thread, ramset attached a document
by Dr. Stiffler which provides a very detailed description of the L3 coil construction which starts on page 30.  See Reply #10 on October 17, 2017, attachment file name DocumentSEC18_Rel_2_8-1.pdf 
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/10/
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 10, 2018, 07:18:28 AM
Nick and All----Here is the basic SEC-15 build diagram that I used to build my first SEC many years ago.   The L3 is the same as on a SEC-18.  The author of this diagram called the coils L1, LB, L2 but they were really named 1,2,and 3 by Dr. Stiffler.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 10, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
Yes, it can help you.  And you can always add fix capacitors in parallel with it if the 120 pF is not high enough.  (Of course the setting range suffers.)    You may have access to old AM pocket radio in which a plastic cased variable capacitor can be found, normally such has 2 x 260 or 2 x 300 pF variables.    Or you collect a range of fix capacitors like 22, 47, 100,  200 pF and place them in parallel in gradual combinations.
thanks. its helped by parallel 22pF with 30pF trimmer and circuit is now working, but the inductors gets very very very hot !
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 10:20:37 AM
Hi Erfandl,

Very good your oscillator is now working.

Is the transistor you use is hot too?  Is the base resistor 100 kOhm or 1 MOhm now?

Please use a DC Ampermeter to learn about the input current your oscillator takes from your voltage source
(the 3.7V battery?). If this current is less than say 30-40 mA, than the hot choke coils can be explained as follows:
the ferrite material these chokes use is not powdered iron but hard ferrite and their performance above a certain
frequency becomes gradually lossy and more lossy, this loss manifests in heat. Very likely the oscillator frequency
went up to the several 10 kHz range where the chokes ferrite material becomes extensively lossy.
If you happen to have a digital multimeter which can measure frequency, hook it between the collector of the transistor
and the negative supply rail to learn about it.
IF this core loss is the problem (i.e. the current consumption is not in the hundreds of mA range), then you need to
obtain 1000 uH  (1 milliHenry) chokes that has no ferrite material.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 10, 2018, 10:34:45 AM
Hi Erfandl,

Very good your oscillator is now working.

Is the transistor you use is hot too?  Is the base resistor 100 kOhm or 1 MOhm now?

Please use a DC Ampermeter to learn about the input current your oscillator takes from your voltage source
(the 3.7V battery?). If this current is less than say 30-40 mA, than the hot choke coils can be explained as follows:
the ferrite material these chokes use is not powdered iron but hard ferrite and their performance above a certain
frequency becomes gradually lossy and more lossy, this loss manifests in heat. Very likely the oscillator frequency
went up to the several 10 kHz range where the chokes ferrite material becomes extensively lossy.
If you happen to have a digital multimeter which can measure frequency, hook it between the collector of the transistor
and the negative supply rail to learn about it.
IF this core loss is the problem (i.e. the current consumption is not in the hundreds of mA range), then you need to
obtain 1000 uH  (1 milliHenry) chokes that has no ferrite material.
Gyula
no transistor isn't hot only inductors hot. the current is 720 mA  :-\ frequency is 85 kHz. resistor is 1M ohm.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 10:59:11 AM
Well, then the 720 mA is the problem: it can happen when the isolation between the plates of the trimmer capacitor
is damaged and there is a short circuit somewhere between the plates.  Remove the battery i.e. switch off the oscillator
and with your Ohm meter check resistance between the two pins of the trimmer capacitor.  IF the trimmer capacitor or
the 22 pF itself is conducting as quasi a piece of wire, then chokes L1 and L3 can get hot (but the L2 choke in base
is not hot, right?).   Maybe the circuit board itself has become conductive somewhere?
It is interesting the oscillator is able to work.  Do you use the 3.7V battery?
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 10, 2018, 11:57:32 AM
Well, then the 720 mA is the problem: it can happen when the isolation between the plates of the trimmer capacitor
is damaged and there is a short circuit somewhere between the plates.  Remove the battery i.e. switch off the oscillator
and with your Ohm meter check resistance between the two pins of the trimmer capacitor.  IF the trimmer capacitor or
the 22 pF itself is conducting as quasi a piece of wire, then chokes L1 and L3 can get hot (but the L2 choke in base
is not hot, right?).   Maybe the circuit board itself has become conductive somewhere?
It is interesting the oscillator is able to work.  Do you use the 3.7V battery?
thanks for reply. yeah L1 and L3 is hot and L2 is cold. I using 3.7V battery. I checked the capacitors with ohm meter and the DMM nothing show any value so capacitors is OK.
I connect the negative of the LED to negative power rail because without this 12 volt LED dosn't turn on. when I removed the connection between negative of 12 volt LED and negative power rail, the chokes dosn't get hot.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 12:41:02 PM
Well, then you changed the circuit, obviously in a quest for making the 12V LED operate with a certain brightness.

You may wish to do the followings: use two white LEDs (the type you have in the base circuit), instead of the 12V LED
and try to find capacitor values (in parallel with the trimmer cap) which show an increase in the brightness for the 2 LEDs.
Then continue with 3 and or 4 white LEDs in series and again use different capacitor values to increase brightness.
IT is possible you reach to a limit and no more increase in brightness is achieved. Then try to obtain a single LED which
has 1 W or 2 or 3 W power and try to optimize for maximum brightness.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 10, 2018, 02:12:53 PM

I found the logic circuit of my led lamp, see picture.
The backside reads:  Y&M-TG-5-9W  so probably indeed a 9W led lamp.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 10, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
I found the logic circuit of my led lamp, see picture.
The backside reads:  Y&M-TG-5-9W  so probably indeed a 9W led lamp.

Itsu
it's not necessarily the power through the leds, leds emit UV witch is used to vibrate the phosphor
it is really down to it's processing particle size, and quantity are related to quality of the light.
By the way you do know what Phosphor is made from 'Piss'  ;D ;D
AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on July 10, 2018, 05:22:52 PM
I THOUGHT IT WAS MADE FROM SEA BIRD SHIT.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 10, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
Lidmotor - I build the crystal oscillator circuit with BD243C transistor. the transistor isn't get hot and stay cold with 24 volt input. the current output from DC DC boost converter is 24 mA so 24*24= 576 mW

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 10, 2018, 06:40:34 PM
Lidmotor - Very nice looking output  8)
Have got several transistors here that I call 'mains rated', just denoting their package size and power handling. There has been some success, but generally the hFE is much smaller. An idea, has been to use perhaps a good hFE MPSA18 and send its output to a PNP, somewhat similar to the very efficient 'DadHav' 2 transistor circuit.
Tests will be done with various NPN's and A733 or A1268, but the idea being to use good power transistors as an end result. Thought it might appeal as a route :)

Say, my L2 on the SEC 18 is quite roughly wound. Have you boxed and put away yours yet or could you tell me how your L2 looks on the bobbin ?
A bonus would be the winding direction, because as iQuest has indicated, both the L2 and L3 should be wound in the same direction.
I may rewind it, but then again if yours is the same then it might be how they are supposed to be.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 10, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
erfandl---Great news about the BD243c transistor working for you on your crystal circuit.  I am going to order a bunch more because they seem to work well on these type circuits.  The MJE181 one works well also.  It works on the GBluer circuit also but I blew one accidentally.  By the way don't expect high light output on Gary's 3 choke circuit.  It is just an interesting circuit to experiment with.  The hot choke problem I encountered also.  One of my circuit modifications had high current running right through one and it almost melted.   
     
Cheers---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 10, 2018, 07:03:13 PM
Btw chaps...it's someone from history's birthday today  :)
We kind of owe it to the guy to light bulbs in fields by the end of the day !
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 10, 2018, 07:19:43 PM
Slider-- My SEC-18s are at another location so I can't look at them.  As I recall the L2 (plastic bobbin) coils were neatly wound.  I don't think it matters though.  The BD243C transistor is what is used in my cheap EBay 'Mini Tesla Coil'.  They give you a spare in the kits I bought.  I was wondering about a Darlington type arrangement also. 
    I have been pouring over the Doc's old videos and forum discussions from 2011 when the PSEC quest was in full swing.  Did we miss something?  Is he going to tell us some secrets while he is still healthy enough?  It seems that he is heading in that direction.  I have always wondered if a glowing red led attached to a scope ground lead wasn't the whole story of the PSEC.  What else was going on?

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 07:39:11 PM
I found the logic circuit of my led lamp, see picture.
The backside reads:  Y&M-TG-5-9W  so probably indeed a 9W led lamp.

Itsu
Hi Itsu,

Yes, the 5050 LED chip is designed for the 60 mA forward current and 3.1 - 3.4 V forward voltage and this roughly
gives 0.2 W power (each chip includes 3 LEDs in parallel with 20 mA current for each LED).  The 0.5 W version in this
chip family is labeled as 5054, so it is already a different type.The converter you show very likely provides a constant
current drive for the 3 LED boards in the lamp and I think the 3 boards are in series connection.
This way the constant current is 120 mA and the total voltage should be then 3 times the 23 V = 69 V DC,
this gives roughly 8.3 W power what the converter should provide.
Assuming a normal 90 % efficiency for such converter, the mains input power should be around 9.1 W into the converter.
Now what would be interesting is to feed a single such LED board from about 23 VDC source to let 60 mA current
flow and see the brightness as a reference for the oscillator...   8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 07:49:47 PM
Lidmotor - I build the crystal oscillator circuit with BD243C transistor. the transistor isn't get hot and stay cold
with 24 volt input. the current output from DC DC boost converter is 24 mA so 24*24= 576 mW
Hi Erfandl,

Good job with the crystal oscillator. If I see from the pictures correctly, you drive the LED via a single wire coming
from the single layer coil, right?  Did you connect the single wire to the back plate of the LED board?
Would you tell what is the type of the LED board or lamp? (make, power). If you happen to have a second such LED lamp,
then could you drive it with a known DC power to get a similar brightness the oscillator provides?
Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 10, 2018, 08:04:16 PM
Slider---I might go out tonight and stick a flashlight in the ground to honor the guy.  Tesla---born July 10, 1856
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 10, 2018, 08:24:52 PM
Hi Erfandl,

Good job with the crystal oscillator. If I see from the pictures correctly, you drive the LED via a single wire coming
from the single layer coil, right?  Did you connect the single wire to the back plate of the LED board?
Would you tell what is the type of the LED board or lamp? (make, power). If you happen to have a second such LED lamp,
then could you drive it with a known DC power to get a similar brightness the oscillator provides?
Thanks, Gyula
thanks for reply. yes the LED drived with single wire. the wire is connected to diodes not back plate. I think its 7 watt LED ( I don't know voltage maybe 120 volt ? ). I cant remember model of the bulb
the brightness is go higher when I connect the DC DC boost converter heat sync to a big aluminum heat sync.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 10, 2018, 09:52:31 PM
Hi Itsu,

Yes, the 5050 LED chip is designed for the 60 mA forward current and 3.1 - 3.4 V forward voltage and this roughly
gives 0.2 W power (each chip includes 3 LEDs in parallel with 20 mA current for each LED).  The 0.5 W version in this
chip family is labeled as 5054, so it is already a different type.The converter you show very likely provides a constant
current drive for the 3 LED boards in the lamp and I think the 3 boards are in series connection.
This way the constant current is 120 mA and the total voltage should be then 3 times the 23 V = 69 V DC,
this gives roughly 8.3 W power what the converter should provide.
Assuming a normal 90 % efficiency for such converter, the mains input power should be around 9.1 W into the converter.
Now what would be interesting is to feed a single such LED board from about 23 VDC source to let 60 mA current
flow and see the brightness as a reference for the oscillator...   8)
Gyula

Gyula,

i can measure that the 3 outputs on the circuit board to the 3 led boards are parallel.
So i believe all 3 led boards get normally around 23V.

For comparison on the oscillator driven board (50mA) and a PS (20 - 23V @ 67 - 160mA) driven board see the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNdXiOw2Sbs
 
Itsu

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 10, 2018, 10:38:06 PM
NickZ and others:  If I may be of help, you can get the genuine SEC 18 L3 coil information you're looking for 'straight from the horse's mouth'.  On the first page of this thread, ramset attached a document
by Dr. Stiffler which provides a very detailed description of the L3 coil construction which starts on page 30.  See Reply #10 on October 17, 2017, attachment file name DocumentSEC18_Rel_2_8-1.pdf 
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/10/ (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/10/)

iQuest,

thanks for the heads up, so the below picture shows the data on this L3 coil.

I rolled my own also on a 16mm diameter former with 70 turns and it comes very close to the 26.6uH

Guess i have to make another 2 exactly the same for things to come.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 10:46:06 PM
Dear Itsu,
Many thanks for doing this test.  I did not stress it enough that the critical parameter that should be kept for the
5050 type LED chips is the 60 mA forward current and if this is observed then it functions as specified, the voltage
across the chips is secondary question because it may range from 3.1V to 3.4V chip by chip.  So the 23V I wrote should
indeed be reduced to as low as to let the 60 mA flow, not higher.   

I mention this because as you found even the 20.3V drives already higher than 60 mA forward current it was 67.1 mA and
surely the 7 mA extra current increases brightness.  So you may need to go even below 20V to get the 60mA input for that
LED board.
May I notice one more thing: Does not the oscillator excite a little better the LED board if the common point of the diodes is connected to the negative  rail? Or the piece of wire hanging on it insures even higher brightness?

Thanks again.   Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 10, 2018, 10:59:17 PM
thanks for reply. yes the LED drived with single wire. the wire is connected to diodes not back plate. I think its 7 watt LED ( I don't know voltage maybe 120 volt ? ). I cant remember model of the bulb
the brightness is go higher when I connect the DC DC boost converter heat sync to a big aluminum heat sync.
Hi Erfandl,

Thanks for the pictures on the LED board, unfortunately I have not managed to identify it.  No problem of course. 
Yes,  the EM field is relatively high when an unscreened air core coil that size (tuned a little with a ferrite rod) and
everything influences it that is nearby, including metal objects.   As if the metal bodies would atteact such fields,
it looks like.  And of course our hand and out body also influence the field of the coil, even detune it.

I would suggest to use an electrolytic capacitor across the positive and negative wires of the LED boards, to filter
a little the output of the two AV plug diodes. Any cap from 47 uF  (microFarad) and at least 160V DC rated would be ok.
This may also increase brightness.  The increase in brightness will not be much though but a small increase can also count. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 11, 2018, 07:11:22 AM
  I tried using my function generator to transmit energy wirelessly by using my old Stiffler towers.  It worked.  The towers were setup to work with SEC 15 or SEC 18 units that ran at around 13.6 MHz so that is where I set the generator.  Here is what the experiment looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMpgR12hbkE

 
 
  This is an old picture of the towers.
----Lidmotor


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 11, 2018, 03:05:49 PM
That's another great way to ensure a match of output and receiver, by using exactly the same top loads. Have just watched your hallway vid again of these from a decade back and realised an advantage of the time gap, I could watch it for the first time again LOL
Jonny Davro had repeating towers all across his kitchen, it might be an idea to repeat that experiment but put them in a circle as a current loop.
Am wondering if a version of that, at a distance, would work more effectively than 1 receiver.

The AD9850 replacement module arrived and has been soldered into the frequency generator build. It's now also been tested.
All works great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I34nU755ICk
Shown with the scope running, as the amplitude and peak to peak voltages are measured through the 0-30MHz range.
Output is very low, even though it says 10.5V pp on the scope at low frequencies.
However, there is a little wireless output using the original SEC-18 L3 in the higher MHz area.
Amplifying is the next part up to 20V.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 11, 2018, 04:37:10 PM
   Gyula:   I seam to be burning out my C1815 transistors bases.  Can you tell me what is the highest voltages that can be used on that  transistor's base? 5v?  When using 12v input, or higher input sources, like my 12v 5w solar panel (20v). I am blowing these small transistors.   And also, is there a benefit to using a higher (or the highest) voltages recommended on the transistor base?
   I have tried that same type of C1815 transistor with all my different value crystals, and the voltages at the collector/emitter is between 10v, and 15v, between the different crystals. With the best highest voltages (15v) when using the 7.2MHz crystal, and not the 13.5MHz crystal, on my oscillator.
   
   Which is the "best" transistor to use when the input is 12v to 30v?
   I will be picking up a couple of those DC to DC convertors in a few days. I just have to make a long trip to get them, as they came from China, but got stuck at post office, instead being shipped to my house.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 11, 2018, 04:48:21 PM
Here's the datasheet Nick:
https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/68/2sc1815-1149989.pdf
Looks like 5V for the Base. A 10K variable pot to the Base should show the input limits...most fun if you have lots of transistors still.
The 'GR' type of C1815 are common on PC monitor CRT chassis, where they haven't used C945's.

Just type in 2S and then a transistor type for datasheets, seems to work well on Startpage.
2SC1815 in this case.
:)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 11, 2018, 06:54:46 PM
Hi Nick,

I wonder how you know you are burning the base of those transistors? (just wish to understand what makes you say that)

If you used a trimmer potmeter (like Itsu did) instead of the fix 100 kOhm base resistor in the oscillator and you adjusted the potmeter to its lowest value which is a short circuit area for the wiper to one of the edges, then the base-emitter diode has much chance to burn out due to the very high base current received dircetly from the 12V (or whatever) supply voltage. This is why it is very advisable to use a 1 k to 10 k resistor in series with the potmeter to avoid the excess base current when the potmeter is turned to a very low value.

You need to understand that the base-emitter junction (in a bipolar transistor) behaves exactly like a normal diode biased in the forward direction.  It is the current fed into the base from a positive voltage source (wrt the emitter and for an NPN type) which should be controlled via a resistor.

A diode as you know start conducting when its anode (in this case it is the base) receives a positive voltage wrt its cathode (here it is the emitter). Both for the diodes and for the transistors base-emitter there is the p-n junction voltage below which the diode cannot conduct: for your Si (silicon) transistor this is around and in between 0.58 to 0.8 V. 
BUT if you connect say a 1.2V battery directly across the base and the emitter (positive to the base and negative to the emitter) without any series current limiting resistor, then you burn out the base-emitter diode in such low power transistor.  (A 2N3055 type has a 4 Amper max base current limitation.)  This is the same as if you connect a diode like 1N4007 directly across the 1.2V battery (also in the forward bias direction of course), then the current can be so high that it would be heat up the diode in no time and it burns out (and during the few seconds it heavily discharges the 1.2V battery). 
So the question really is how much current the base of a transistor is specified for and not what is the highest voltages that can be used, ok? These transistors that the Doc and everyone else uses in such oscillators are called bipolar transistors (and npn types). The field effect transistors (that include MOSFETs of course) are controlled by changing the voltage across their gate and source: they are voltage controlled while the bipolar transistors are said to be current controlled devices, ok?

The 5V base emitter voltage, VEBo shown in the data sheet Slider linked to means the maximum reverse voltage rating for the base - emitter diode, ok? Nothing to do with the 0.58-0.7V bias (i.e. p-n junction) voltage which developes across the base and emitter when you apply a higher than this bias voltage in the forward direction via a series resistor (to limit the base current).

How can it be known it would mean reverse voltage ??
Notice the letter order in the suffix from left to right: VEBo (and not VBEo) where the 5V max limit is given for the emitter and base and the EB order means the reverse direction !

And you can see the BE order in the VBEsat for instance where the order is base - emitter, this means forward bias direction (the word 'sat' means saturation voltage between the base an emitter in the forward direction. You see the test condition for VBEsat=1V maximum when IC=100mA, IB=10mA.

"Best" transistors to use: Lidmotor listed two.  I listed at least other two types that Itsu kindly ordered and used.

The 'rule of thumb' for such oscillators that have a coil in the collector is to use transistors rated for collector emitter voltages (VCEo) with at least 3 times higher ratings than the supply voltage applied. The VCEo for the 2SC1815 is specified as maximum 50 V, so 50/3= 16 V: so the supply voltge should be below 16V to be on the safe side.
For a 30 V supply voltage you wish to use, at least a 100 V rated bipolar transistor should be chosen. Lidmotor uses a BD243C which is a 100 V VCEo rated type (notice the BD243 type can have A, B and C suffixes that designates exactly the collector emitter voltage ratings, C being the highest for that type).

What a mess is in the semiconductor world you would say...   ;D

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 11, 2018, 08:10:19 PM
Nick---I really bothers me that you are having so much trouble.  I guess it is because I can relate to what you are going through. I have been down that road on many projects.  Not the right parts, perhaps a minor error in the build, or simply not really understanding what is happening and why the damn thing won't work.   On a circuit like this crystal oscillator there are not that many things that can go wrong-- if you have parts that are close to the required ones and the circuit is assembled right.  If you are burning up transistors something is basically wrong.  When I run into a situation like this I basically start over at square one.  Get the parts all separated out and make sure each one works and isn't burned out. I usually setup a Joule Thief circuit on a breadboard to test the transistors. Take a look at the circuit diagram and make sure you have that completely right.  Build it up on a breadboard first to see if it runs and to make easy adjustments.  Sometimes I build up a 'dead bug' arrangement rather than solder the parts on a board. It looks ugly but if it works I don't care.
  I know that this all sounds a bit silly to someone like you who has been building for years but perhaps it might help. 

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 11, 2018, 08:35:03 PM
   OK, well now I can see why the 20v 5w solar panel would blow these C1815 transistors. They are OK for voltages of up to 8v or so. When using the 100k base resistors, but only provide about 12v or 13v output at the collector emitter, which is not enough on my oscillator to see some wireless effects.

  I have set up some additional series connected 10k ohm resistors to see which number of them will provide the needed current to the base. That is after going through the 100k base resistor and crystal.
  So if the question is how much current should go to the transistor base, while using let's say 12v input. I don't know the answer, yet.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 11, 2018, 09:15:57 PM
Nick, 

I clearly described in my above post what voltages up to the C1815 could be OK and now I copy and paste the relevant text to here again:

"The 'rule of thumb' for such oscillators that have a coil in the collector is to use transistors rated for collector emitter voltages (VCEo) with at least 3 times higher ratings than the supply voltage applied. The VCEo for the 2SC1815 is specified as maximum 50 V, so 50/3= 16 V: so the supply voltge should be below 16V to be on the safe side."   

And now you simply deduced: "They are OK for voltages of up to 8v or so." 

I am simply clueless whether you understand what I write, sorry to say this. Or just negligence? Can you explain how the 8V came? 

Gyula


   OK, well now I can see why the 20v 5w solar panel would blow these C1815 transistors. They are OK for voltages of up to 8v or so. When using the 100k base resistors, but only provide about 12v or 13v output at the collector emitter, which is not enough on my oscillator to see some wireless effects.

  I have set up some additional series connected 10k ohm resistors to see which number of them will provide the needed current to the base. That is after going through the 100k base resistor and crystal.
  So if the question is how much current should go to the transistor base, while using let's say 12v input. I don't know the answer, yet.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 11, 2018, 10:18:19 PM
  Perhaps what makes me say so is the pile of dead C1815 that I have in front of me. Most died at 12v, using a base 100k resistor, or they become untouchable in one minute running time.
  I am running a input of 12v, the C1815 transistors are rated at 50v. And I'm using the recommended 100k resistor on the base.
It's suppose to work at those voltages. And, at times it does.
But, I've been looking for transistors that can handle more input, and to see which crystal provides for the highest output. So far it's about 14v output from the 7.2MHz, on my oscillator when running on 4v input, and about 30v output, at 12v input.
  Otherwise, all is fine at 4v input, the crystals all run perfectly at their rated frequency, and the transistor is cool, and does not blow.

  Yes, it's negligence. But, I'm looking for what works for me, and the parts that I have available at the moment. Not that easy to do.
   I hope that gives you a clue, as to if I understand you, or not. In any case, not to worry,  I'll get it going right, yet.   
   Maybe a Snickers Bar would do you well, also.  While I try to do better...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 11, 2018, 11:45:44 PM
Nick,

All I can suggest kindly is: acquire as much knowledge as you can by self education.

If you are looking for what works for you, then that is also okay but it is a hard way.
I really wish you good luck and very little number of bristles on your way.

I like Snickers Bars too.   8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 12, 2018, 04:59:28 AM
   It seams like the oscillator works to provide the output voltages, but I don't see any wireless at 8 volts input, and 12v cooks the transistor. I'll try a trim pot on the base next to see if I can run at higher voltages without blowing the transistors.
   I also made another L3 coil, with less turn of a little thicker wire, about 60 turns, so that I can remove some if needed.
It seams to work better than my previous L3, but still no wireless at 8v input. 8v is where the C1815 works, a bit hot, but not overheating. The 13.5MHz crystal provides for less output at 8v input (21v), than the 7.2MHz (at 27v), 12v input provides 38v output at the collector emitter. Yet, no wireless, or practically none.  Anybody else having the same situation???
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 12, 2018, 12:19:14 PM
Hmmm. increased the brightness by paralleling three 13.56 MHz crystal

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 12, 2018, 01:26:26 PM

Nick,

i would loose the 221 (220uH) choke in the supply line for now and replace it with a 1K resistor.

Then follow closely Gyula's comments in post #465 here:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/465/
It explains good what is happening in your circuit.


At 4V supply voltage your transistor is OK (warm only), so aim for the base current as given for this
4V supply voltage (0.04mA) when using 12V by increasing the base resistor.

Meaning; use a 12V / 0.04mA = 300K trimmer pot (or combo fixed/trimmer) to set this 0.04mA base current
at 12V supply voltage.

This 0.04mA base current will cause (in worse case with a hFE of 700) 28mA collector current only, preventing
your transistor to heat up.

If you have this stable, then tinker with the L3 coil and leds.
Not sure what you mean by "Yet, no wireless, or practically none".
What do you expect and how do you test this?

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 12, 2018, 03:27:09 PM
   Itsu: 
   I'm taking measures to add more base resistance.   I had already replaced the both the two previous chokes that I had tried on, with a 1k resistor, but that didn't change anything.   
  The oscillator worked all night long last night at 8v, it gets warm but not too hot, unlike at 12v.
    What do I mean by wireless?  Is this not suppose to be an "Exciter"? So far, I've seen no indication of that. Have you?
   I've been very busy at times, and may have missed some of the videos, and posts.
 
   I did make a new L3 yesterday, which works better, but the oscillator is still too weak for capacitive or wireless field effects.
   Most of the guys are still needing to use clip leads to obtain better light output? Is that the way it's suppose to work? As no one has shown much of an effect, with out the use of clip leads.
    But, why I get no wireless field effects, has been somewhat frustrating after all these days of trying.
    However, my goal is to learn (and educate) myself more about the cause of any possible OU effects, or possible future self running.  Not just weakly lit leds running on minimal power. But, studying about the cause of the "effect", is what I'm after.Dr. Stiffler did mention about the tapping of additional ambient energy, and also, over the possibility of self running
   For now, I'd like to be able to do what Lidmotor showed on one of his videos, running from a 9 volt battery, capacitively lighting a gutted 120v bulb. But, needing NO clip leads.

   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 12, 2018, 07:01:32 PM
Nick---I think this is my 9v battery video you are referring to where I show the wireless 'Exciter' effects using the crystal oscillator circuit.  There are no 'clip leads' attached but I am using a virtual ground on the led lightbulb array.  The leds on the stick operated in free space wirelessly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqsVQPLXi3E

As far as OU or any extreme efficiency I don't the have proper equipment to accurately measure that.  The circuit draws about 30-40mA on that 9v battery.  The 'L3' in this experiment is NOT a standard SEC L3  like I mentioned. It is made with 26ga instead of 24ga and is about 90 turns instead of 60. It is roughly the size of a AA battery.  It has 2 ohms of resistance and about 100uh of inductance.

erfandl--- I never thought about using multiple crystals to enhance the performance of the light output.  I will try that.

All--  I am going on a sailboat vacation for awhile and might take this crystal oscillator light with me to field test it.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 13, 2018, 06:53:33 PM
Lidmotor - I hope there are no fields around your boat ! if you see what I mean, stick to water. Have a good time and maybe you'll see UFO's around Catalina Island :)

Nick - An L3 off your output should show wireless effects if another same L3 is quite near to it, with an LED across its wires. 2x AV plug off the receiver coils wires works better. Doing that can really help to tune the L3's up if using a set 2 pin crystal...taking turns off from an original winding of 80 turns or similar.
Clip leads just extend the effects outward, but not the power delivery in terms of a gutted mains bulb brightness.
If L3's are matched using such a system, then they should also be able to go onward to PSEC type experiments. All being matched will resonate as per the Doc's video on the PSEC and may then bring a better chance of the self running.
That's my thinking anyway and a goal of this...I see what you're saying about frustrations but it is a slow process to match it all up.

All - i've tried the signal voltage booster linked below at length over the past couple of days and the output frequency from the AD9850 sig gen isn't boosting. Am using the older original adjustable power supply as its own power input, set at 15V. There's no increased output visually from LED's or coils and the signal has a lot of noise when looking on the scope.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Voltage-Amplifier/

Update:
A couple of scope shots. The wave output has cleaned up by using 470ohms/4.7K on the Collector section of the circuit diagram (in the link above).
But, even though the scope goes to a healthy 13.9V range automatically, the Vpp is seemingly nothing.
Without the circuit in line, the scope drops its relay based range setting to 5V.
First pic is of the output from the circuit when connected to the AD9850. The scope registers anywhere from 13.1MHz to 13.7MHz, shown here 'seeing' 13.1MHz
Second pic when connected to a 2 pin crystal circuit, running at 13.5225MHZ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 13, 2018, 10:16:52 PM

Slider,

does it work when using a lower frequency crystal, like 3 or 4 MHz?
I had similar problems using a MOSFET driver ay 13.5MHz, it seemed not to be able to handle the frequency.
Not saying that the 2N3904 would not be able to handle that frequency, but probably something else in that
circuit, or the circuit itself.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 13, 2018, 10:26:40 PM
Gyula---Your comment, "Each oscillator has it's own soul."  is so true.  This latest G. Bluer circuit is no different.  Gary builds weird circuits---always has and he doesn't explain much in his video.  To me they are puzzles and going back many years I have enjoyed them.  His 'Slayer Exciter' like the Joule Thief is a classic.  This 3 choke exciter is a 'tinker toy' and meant to be played around with.  I did get the original circuit to run but quickly modified it (like Slider and Gary are doing).  Mine does not self start so I am using a BBQ lighter spark near it to jump start the oscillator.  I eliminated the 1M resistor.  Here is a tip: Just take two chokes and put them side by side and wire them up to the NPN in a regular Joule Thief circuit.  If you get good led performance like that you know that the chokes and the transistor like each other OK.  If that works then it is just a case of reconfiguring the two chokes into the new circuit.  The third choke can be replaced with a Slayer Exciter tower if you want and the cap doesn't do much I found.  Keep the 1n4148 diode and led going from the (-) to the base for this thing to run right.  I'm am not seeing the super low amp draw on mine that Gary shows but it will run down to about .6v.  Any 2N2222 type transistor works fine. Stay under 4v to keep it alive.

All--Dr. Stiffler's latest video is about using three coils resonating together ----driven by a function generator.  I think I know why he is doing this and where he is heading.  Remember these days?  Guess what that 'special frequency' is that he talks about in this video from 2011.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lbYjqU48Mw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lbYjqU48Mw)

I wonder if he had his function generator (set at that 'special frequency) connected to something near that AL block sitting on the far right side of the elevated board?  Hummm.

Even if this device was not 'self-running',as people thought, to me the fact that it worked at all is amazing.  Now that I have a signal generator perhaps I can replicate this experiment.  I always thought that perhaps he just had another SEC running near by ----but what if it was just his signal generator broadcasting at 13.6 Mhz pumped out at about 1 watt.

----Lidmotor

Lidmotor,

thanks for pointing to this old video, he seems to be going in some specific direction.
Thanks also to RAMSET in the followup post for the link to the latest Dr. Stiffler video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxRbckLedjU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxRbckLedjU)

I tried to replicate this setup/test and build me 3 L3 coils (16mm diameter former, 72 turns)
which measured to be 26.7 (2x) and 27uH.

I put the 2  26,7uH coils on a wooden rig so i can change the distance between them (allthough that
seem to have little influence on the leds output).

Using the FG at first, set at 20Vpp, sine wave, 13.6Mhz and using the red lead only.
Input to the first L3 coil goes via a 1 Ohm csr to take some differential measurments.

Screenshot shows the signals across the 1 Ohm csr (blue input side, purple output side, red math function Blue - Purple).

Video about this test here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEhW7oQyHrA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEhW7oQyHrA&feature=youtu.be)

I see very little or no difference in signals across the csr meaning no additial load (current) seems
to be drawn from the FG with the L3/leds combo inserted and lighting the leds (rather dimly).


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 13, 2018, 11:19:46 PM
Itsu - Good point about the crystal frequency, thanks for the pointer.
Am using a C3198 in the circuit, broadly similar specs. The 3904 is a bit faster but the C3198 is 80MHz rated. hFE is more on the C3198 which could factor for the Base components. In fact, i'll just swap in a 3904 and take that bit of the equation out !
Will swap out the crystal for lower values too :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 14, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Hi Slider,
Try to connect a choke coil of about 47 uH to 220 uH in series with the collector resistor, this will enhance amplification factor at 13.5 Mhz.  The 4.7 k to 6.8 kOhm in the collector have much less values at that frequency than at the lower frequencies, with the series L the AC impedance increases on which the transistor can amplify.   

What DC supply voltage can you assign for feeding such voltage amplifiers?  What is the maximum DC output of the step up DC converter you have?
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: iQuest on July 14, 2018, 01:32:42 AM
Itsu:  Glad to be of some help with the original L3 coil specs, I appreciate all of your efforts and the good work that you share.  You and Gyula (excellent knowledge and patience) provide very good technical info
to learn from in your back and forth team effort.  Thanks to you both, I'm sure there is much more to be learned here.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 14, 2018, 07:27:23 AM
Gyula - yes, thanks so very much for your continued insights. I'll certainly try the inductor.
Thinking about this, Lidmotor made reference to a regular Dr. Stiffler wound L3 being approximately 100uH...could that be used ?
Am guessing that there wouldn't be an advantage of it over an axial type though in that spot.
Output of the booster is 15V, it can go up to approx 30V.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 14, 2018, 04:52:59 PM
Hi Slider,

Yes, quasi any kind of coil having any inductance from say 20 uH to 100 uH or higher could help increase the impedance in the collector. This is a good reason again to visit the shed...  :)   to find some RF coils on that board with the many crystals.
If you find that such a coil causes only a little increase in collector voltage amplitude (monitorod on your scope versus the negative rail),  then connect some more similar in series. 
You can also use that coil you refer to, if nothing else.  Or if you have an RF type ferrite core, then just wind 20-30 turns on it from any enamelled wire and see the amplitude. Radial or axial type chokes are also useable here.

What is the output unloaded amplitude of your AD9850 sig gen around this 13 -14 MHz?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 14, 2018, 10:38:04 PM

Playing around with my 3 coil setup.

Now measuring not the input, but the output to the led strip.

Using the FG it turns out that i have 18V dc across the leds turning them on faintly.
I compared with another similar led strip attached to my PS set at 18V dc.

Lateron switching over to the crystal oscillator instead of the FG.
It will not light the leds directly attached to the 3 coil setup, only via a capacitively
coupled setup (double sided PCB touching the input wire isolation).

The output on the led strip is the same as when on the FG, like about 18V dc.

Screenshot shows the purple and blue signals being the plus and minus side of the led strip,
with red the math function blue - purple to show the resulting DC voltage (18V).


Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac51I-cdMbE&feature=youtu.be

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 12:21:23 AM
Hi Itsu,

The 18V DC is created by the AV plug diodes across the LED diodes (7 LEDs in series and this is in parallel with another 7 LEDs also in series). You know the voltage - current characteristics of LEDs are like that of Zener diodes hence the 17.8 to 18 V DC level automatically developes across the array (LED string).   Seemingly the basic 3 V forward voltage for a single white LED is not valid here because 18V / 7 = 2.57 V only, instead of the 2.9V to 3.3V range but I think this lower value comes from the parallel connection of the two series strings. (like for Zeners or for normal diodes the parallel connection does reduce the original Zener breakdown or forward voltages)

If you connect two such LED boards in series to add their '18V levels' and feed them with the AV plug, then the input RF energy may be able to light them both, albeit they maybe would not have similar brightness than in the single board case. And you would then see a 33-35V or so DC on the scope Math. 

By the way, I assume if you connect an electrolytic cap across the DC wires of the LED board with the correct polarity, then it would serve as a puffer capacitor for the AV plug diodes and maybe you could check the DC level not only with the scope but with a normal DC voltmeter. A 47 to 100 uF, 25 or 36 V rated electrolytic would be ok for such test. (Notice: if you remove the LED board from the puffer cap, then a 160V DC rated capacitor should be used to handle the unloaded DC level from the AV plug.)

Regarding the need for a capacitive coupling when the xtal oscillator drives the 3 coils instead of the FG, I think also the input of 3 coils may represent a low impedance and loads down too much the toroidal tank. Perhaps you can see this on the scope what happens to the near 100 Vpp across the toroidal tank when you attempt to drive the 3 coils.

Could you use a low pF value trimmer capacitor instead of the PC board? I mean a few pF, max say 10 pF. To make the tuning of such capacitor relatively hand_effect_detuning free, you could make a 'trimmer cap' by twisting two enameled wires together, say you make a 10 cm long twist and leave the 2 wires open at one end. Then connect the two other wire ends as a coupling capacitor between the tank and the 3 coil setup. To tune such capacitor, just cut down the open end of the twist gradually say by 1 cm or half a cm at a time and see the brightness.

Nice experiment by the way, thanks for showing.  Would have one question: what is the LED board current when you drive it from the power supply 17.8 V DC?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 15, 2018, 01:41:57 AM

Gyula,

thanks for the comments, i will digest them later this weekend.

The question you have i can answer, as the current pulled by the PS at 17.8V was 2.2mA.

Measuring the current from the battery feeding the oscillator was fouled up by RF? as i could not get
a correct reading.

itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 15, 2018, 03:52:03 AM
And another reply for Gyula :)
A 100uH axial inductor was tried and unfortunately has pulled the output further down.
Will try various other methods, including winding on a ferrite core and seeing how the output changes with increasing winds. Will start at 1 turn.
Sorry about the delay, been publishing books. That's 4 in the past few days, 2 of them today.

Here are 2 scope shots.
The first is the 13.5225MHz 2 pin crystal circuit output running through the boost circuit.
The second is the AD9850 at 13.6MHz.
Scope probe is on the 100uH output from the Collector, other end is on the Ground of the boost circuit.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 15, 2018, 06:26:35 AM
   I've got my oscillator going, and lighting an led bulb on an AV plug. I think that that bulb may have been an AC bulb before being gutted.  My best output when running on 12v, so far, has been 39v, at the collector/emitter.  But, for some reason, the voltage starts to drop after a minute, or so.
   I've got it lighting on 12v, and just being careful not to overheat the transistor. I tried adding a 150K resistor in line with the 100k resistor that's on the base, but it would not start. And so I removed it, until I can find a more suitable one.  I've also, just had my first peak at seeing a wireless field effect, from this little oscillator. Lighting an led/AV plug an inch or so away. Finally!!!
   I'm excited... about my Exciter.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 15, 2018, 06:47:52 AM
Thanks for the screen shots. Everyone having fun.  Hope you will forgive this comment, the projects are progressing nicely.
Some of the problems in years past has been matching first stage to the second with SG, variants, the nature of AC at RF.

I tried to find a video a professional good setup Zzz and also a hobbyist instruction so we can determine a good
impedance match.  Using a toroidal ferrite is one method of joining the signal to the amplifier for example.
The math and a little adjustment can give an outstanding result. An efficient transfer of energy.

Hopefully this will ad some content latter with Doctor Stiffler's concept and approach also not without electrical science.
The projects move toward understanding the SEC 18 hopefully get more definitive as it goes. (L3= ?Z) Crystal oscillator ?Z
On Impedance matching. Where to start ? output impedance, or input impedance, or maybe back and forth in small approximations.
Example: 10,000 ohm high impedance and a 300 ohm low impedance example could possibly use some math at first.

https://youtu.be/fWZjpZJlcCo

https://youtu.be/L_eTUOKVbFA




Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 15, 2018, 11:40:31 AM

Slider,

something is not right i think, the signals are to small and wavy.
Are you sure your probe is ok, like is the tip firmly attached to the probe and/or is your ground lead
solidly attached to the probe (the lead sometimes breaks within the isolation).



Nick,

way to go, but are you running at 7.25MHz?




Microvolt,

thanks for the refresh on impedance, i think it will be important to take some impedance measurements of
the severall parts/components.


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 15, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
   
   Itsu:   
   I'm using the 7.2MHz crystal for now, as it shows the highest output at the led bulb. The oscillator will also run on the 13.5MHz crystals, but not as well. As that crystal runs the oscillator a few volts lower, like 32v, instead of 39v, like the 7.2MHz crystal.    Wireless field effects start to show up at around 40v, on, but are too weak below that voltage.
   Slider: I think that your scope's negative probe may not have been connected.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 15, 2018, 05:51:42 PM
   
   Itsu:   
   I'm using the 7.2MHz crystal for now, as it shows the highest output at the led bulb. The oscillator will also run on the 13.5MHz crystals, but not as well. As that crystal runs the oscillator a few volts lower, like 32v, instead of 39v, like the 7.2MHz crystal.    Wireless field effects start to show up at around 40v, on, but are too weak below that voltage.
   Slider: I think that your scope's negative probe may not have been connected.
Hi nickz. you try 7.2MHz crystal on which circuit ?
thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 15, 2018, 06:54:38 PM
   erfandl:   My 13.5MHz crystal oscillator is pictured below. It runs best using the 7.2MHz crystal, or a 12.000MHz crystal.
   The diagram (below) was taken from one of Lidmotor's videos.
   I've provided for two outputs, one for the leds, and another for future power looping, back to the input.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 15, 2018, 07:56:43 PM
The projects getting better
https://www.slideserve.com/selah/bifilar-wound-toroids-session-2
https://www.bamlog.com/diyxfmr.htm
https://www.abcelectronique.com/annuaire/montages/cache/3560/melangeur-transmetteur.html

Hobbyist approach Doug DeMaw has good explanation hands on approach.
Starting on page 45 crystal circuits, impedance, vfo buffer, using small ferrite beads, ect

http://www.n5dux.com/ham/files/pdf/W1FB%20-%20QRP%20Notebook.pdf
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 15, 2018, 08:32:59 PM
   erfandl:   My 13.5MHz crystal oscillator is pictured below. It runs best using the 7.2MHz crystal, or a 12.000MHz crystal.
   The diagram (below) was taken from one of Lidmotor's videos.
   I've provided for two outputs, one for the leds, and another for future power looping, back to the input.
thanks NickZ. how to provide output to input for looping ? do you connect 2 diodes to battery ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 08:45:12 PM
Gyula,

thanks for the comments, i will digest them later this weekend.
The question you have i can answer, as the current pulled by the PS at 17.8V was 2.2mA.
Measuring the current from the battery feeding the oscillator was fouled up by RF? as i could not get
a correct reading.
itsu
Hi Itsu,

2.2 mA forward current at 17.8 V: that is rather low. It means the individual SMD LEDs on those boards are already able to give brightness you show in the video from 2.4 - 2.5 V individual forward voltage levels.

Specifications on the 5050 LED chips:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/warm-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/317/1249/ (https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/warm-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/317/1249/)

For any single SMD LED chip (that your boards include) the forward voltage is written to be 3.2 V at 3x20 mA current this is because any single chip includes 3 LED diodes integrated and connected in parallel within any chip.

The parallel connection of two series strings on a board having 7-7 such chips reduces the specified 7x3.2V= 22.4V at 60 mA: you made a test at 60 mA and the voltage was 20 V from the PS or your another test done at 67 mA needed 20.3V (7x2.9V), this is possible and comparable. The resulting reducement in forward voltage for parallel connected LEDs is similar to that of Zener or for just normal diodes.
I do not think your earlier RF current measurements were false (around 50 mA taken from the 12.5V battery), you confirmed this with an analog ampermeter too. Back then the LED board was driven by its back plate via a single wire from the L3 coil, now you drove the LED board from an AV plug which was driven from the 3rd coil of a 3 coil setup. Also, the capacitive coupling you created between the wire from the input to the 3 coils and the PCB plate has an unknown pF value and its capacitive reactance reduces the RF voltage coming from the tank.

OR you meant input current measurement problems in the present case when you drive the 3 coils by the oscillator?

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 08:56:29 PM
Hi Slider,

First thing firsts: just test the oscilloscope and the probes with the built-in 1 kHz square wave output I assume you have in the front face (I do not know this scope type in detail).
Then if the scope is okay, then carry on exploring the waveforms from earlier known circuits. Then you can conclude something.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 09:11:38 PM
...
   I've got it lighting on 12v, and just being careful not to overheat the transistor. I tried adding a 150K resistor in line with the 100k resistor that's on the base, but it would not start. And so I removed it, until I can find a more suitable one.
...
Nick,
Please connect a 22 pF or a 33 pF or a 47 pF capacitor (whichever you have) across the base and the emitter of the transistor when you use the 150 kOhm (or higher) in series with the 100 kOhm base resistor.  Also, you can increase the value of the 22 pF capacitor, presently across the collector and the emitter, by connecting in parallel with it a 10 pF or another 22 pF capacitor.

Can you check the DC input current to the oscillator when supplied by 12V?  You can pull out the crystal and then plug it in to see current when the oscillator works. 


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 15, 2018, 09:30:02 PM
thanks NickZ. how to provide output to input for looping ? do you connect 2 diodes to battery ?

   Not sure yet. But, maybe your idea might work.
  The oscillator is already providing more than a SG does at over 30v, at 135MHz.But, I see nothing special, as yet. I don't have the right bulb though.
   NickZ
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 15, 2018, 09:34:28 PM

Gyula,

Quote
Hi Itsu,

The 18V DC is created by the AV plug diodes across the LED diodes (7 LEDs in series and this is in parallel with another 7 LEDs also in series).
You know the voltage - current characteristics of LEDs are like that of Zener diodes hence the 17.8 to 18 V DC level automatically developes across the array (LED string).   
Seemingly the basic 3 V forward voltage for a single white LED is not valid here because 18V / 7 = 2.57 V only, instead of the 2.9V to 3.3V range but I think this lower value comes from the parallel connection of the two series strings. (like for Zeners or for normal diodes the parallel connection does reduce the original Zener breakdown or forward voltages)

If you connect two such LED boards in series to add their '18V levels' and feed them with the AV plug, then the input RF energy may be able to light them both, albeit they maybe would not have similar brightness than in the single board case.
And you would then see a 33-35V or so DC on the scope Math. 

Correct, when i put 2 of those leds strip in series, the signals look like as in the 1st screenshot below.
The leds are almost off, but they are lit and the math function shows the DC voltage to be 33V.


Quote
By the way, I assume if you connect an electrolytic cap across the DC wires of the LED board with the correct polarity, then it would serve as a puffer capacitor for the AV plug diodes and maybe you could check the DC level not only with the scope but with a normal DC voltmeter.
A 47 to 100 uF, 25 or 36 V rated electrolytic would be ok for such test. (Notice: if you remove the LED board from the puffer cap, then a 160V DC rated capacitor should be used to handle the unloaded DC level from the AV plug.)

Correct again, the puffer cap cleans up the signals and enables a DMM to read the 33V.

Quote
Regarding the need for a capacitive coupling when the xtal oscillator drives the 3 coils instead of the FG, I think also the input of 3 coils may represent a low impedance and loads down too much the toroidal tank.
Perhaps you can see this on the scope what happens to the near 100 Vpp across the toroidal tank when you attempt to drive the 3 coils.

Could you use a low pF value trimmer capacitor instead of the PC board? I mean a few pF, max say 10 pF.
To make the tuning of such capacitor relatively hand_effect_detuning free, you could make a 'trimmer cap' by twisting two enameled wires together, say you make a 10 cm long twist and leave the 2 wires open at one end.
Then connect the two other wire ends as a coupling capacitor between the tank and the 3 coil setup.
To tune such capacitor, just cut down the open end of the twist gradually say by 1 cm or half a cm at a time and see the brightness.

The 2th screenshot shows the oscillator output without the 3 coils attached in white (143Vpp)
The yellow trace is the signal when connected to the 3 coil setup with a trimmer cap (set to 5pF).
The blue and purple are again the signals across the SINGLE led strip with the red trace the math showing the DC voltage again.

Without the 5pF trimmer cap the signal collapses from the 143Vpp to zero (shuts down the oscillator).

Finally the diagram as i now have the 3 coil system setup, which is how i think Dr. Stiffler meant it

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 15, 2018, 09:41:02 PM
Hi Itsu,

2.2 mA forward current at 17.8 V: that is rather low. It means the individual SMD LEDs on those boards are already able to give brightness you show in the video from 2.4 - 2.5 V individual forward voltage levels.

Specifications on the 5050 LED chips:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/warm-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/317/1249/ (https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/warm-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/317/1249/)

For any single SMD LED chip (that your boards include) the forward voltage is written to be 3.2 V at 3x20 mA current this is because any single chip includes 3 LED diodes integrated and connected in parallel within any chip.

The parallel connection of two series strings on a board having 7-7 such chips reduces the specified 7x3.2V= 22.4V at 60 mA: you made a test at 60 mA and the voltage was 20 V from the PS or your another test done at 67 mA needed 20.3V (7x2.9V), this is possible and comparable. The resulting reducement in forward voltage for parallel connected LEDs is similar to that of Zener or for just normal diodes.
I do not think your earlier RF current measurements were false (around 50 mA taken from the 12.5V battery), you confirmed this with an analog ampermeter too. Back then the LED board was driven by its back plate via a single wire from the L3 coil, now you drove the LED board from an AV plug which was driven from the 3rd coil of a 3 coil setup. Also, the capacitive coupling you created between the wire from the input to the 3 coils and the PCB plate has an unknown pF value and its capacitive reactance reduces the RF voltage coming from the tank.

OR you meant input current measurement problems in the present case when you drive the 3 coils by the oscillator?

Thanks,  Gyula

Gyula,

i checked again with my DC PS, at 20V they draw 60mA, but at 18V it drops to 2.6mA with moderate light.

Yes, i meant the input current measurement  is not possible when i drive the 3 coils by the oscillator.
Probably the RF emitting from the 3 coils is to strong, as even without any cables connected to my analoge
meter it reads 5mA or so (nearby off course).

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 10:52:06 PM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the comments and measurements,  I appreciate your work very much.
I agree with the schema you show on the 3 coil setup as the Doc introduced it in his video.  Does the trimmer capacitor set to 5 pF give a resonance-like coupling? i.e. can it be adjusted to give a peak brightness and that happens to be around 5 pF? or it has a 'flat' response? Just curious. (I know it is difficult to adjust due to the hand capacitance, perhaps the use of a piece of wood or plastic rod formed to have screwdriver end would reduce hand effects when turning the trimmer with them.)

In the 3 coil setup there are the AV plug diodes inserted between the input coil and the middle coil. This is an unusual connection because the DC resistance of the second coil short circuits the DC component of the rectified RF energy and "only" the RF signals remain to feed the top and bottom ends of the middle coil.  Have you pondered on this DC short?
When you have time next week, could you place the two probes to the ends of the middle coil and use the scope in differential mode to see how the waveforms look like? 

I assume you changed the distance between the input and the middle coil?  Is the distance critical between them in terms of the brightness?

And the most interesting thing is his 1 Ohm voltage drop measurement right at the output of his generator. Have you checked when you remove the 3rd coil with the LED board (as he did) then how the amplitude of the oscillator tank changes? That would be the goal to achieve what he stated: the energy taken out from the generator does not change.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 10:58:15 PM
Gyula,

i checked again with my DC PS, at 20V they draw 60mA, but at 18V it drops to 2.6mA with moderate light.

Yes, i meant the input current measurement  is not possible when i drive the 3 coils by the oscillator.
Probably the RF emitting from the 3 coils is to strong, as even without any cables connected to my analoge
meter it reads 5mA or so (nearby off course).

Itsu
Okay, thanks.  The voltage-current characteristic of the paralleled LED strings within a LED board is very steap to cause the big change in current for the 2 V change in voltage.  But this is normal for LEDs.
I agree, the 3 coil setup surely increases the near field because all the 3 coils are air core coils and nothing confines their EM field like a ferromagnetic core normally does when used. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 15, 2018, 11:11:44 PM
Hmmm. increased the brightness by paralleling three 13.56 MHz crystal
Hi Erfandl,
I missed to comment your interesting test.  Would you check the DC input current to your oscillator how it changes when the 3 crystals work?

I think the number of oscillator harmonic frequencies are greatly increased with the use of 3 crystals versus a single crystal and this comes at a price of an increased input power too.   The harmonics can only be seen by using a spectrum analyzer (or a selective voltmeter). 
If you find the input current does not increase with the use of 3 crystals, that would be good news...  8)   but I think it increases.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 16, 2018, 10:21:09 AM
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the comments and measurements,  I appreciate your work very much.
I agree with the schema you show on the 3 coil setup as the Doc introduced it in his video.  Does the trimmer capacitor set to 5 pF give a resonance-like coupling? i.e. can it be adjusted to give a peak brightness and that happens to be around 5 pF? or it has a 'flat' response? Just curious. (I know it is difficult to adjust due to the hand capacitance, perhaps the use of a piece of wood or plastic rod formed to have screwdriver end would reduce hand effects when turning the trimmer with them.)

In the 3 coil setup there are the AV plug diodes inserted between the input coil and the middle coil. This is an unusual connection because the DC resistance of the second coil short circuits the DC component of the rectified RF energy and "only" the RF signals remain to feed the top and bottom ends of the middle coil.  Have you pondered on this DC short?
When you have time next week, could you place the two probes to the ends of the middle coil and use the scope in differential mode to see how the waveforms look like? 

I assume you changed the distance between the input and the middle coil?  Is the distance critical between them in terms of the brightness?

And the most interesting thing is his 1 Ohm voltage drop measurement right at the output of his generator. Have you checked when you remove the 3rd coil with the LED board (as he did) then how the amplitude of the oscillator tank changes? That would be the goal to achieve what he stated: the energy taken out from the generator does not change.

Gyula

Gyula,

the trimmer cap does give a resonance-like coupling,  i use a plactic rod trimmer screwdriver to adjust.


I will take the differential probe measurement on the first AV-plug tonight.
I think we don't need the DC at that middle coil, just the RF AC to excite it.

Changing the distance between the 2 vertical coils has little or no influence on the brightness of the
leds, i demonstrated that in the first video of this setup in post #555.
So it seems that all the RF goes via the AV-plug / links.

Also the 1 Ohm csr measurement with removing the last coil/led strip combo was done in that video around
the 4 minute mark using my FG.

I see little or no change in current then,  but can repeat that for the oscillator circuit.


By the way, now with the trimmer cap set to 5pF and having the leds on using the oscillator i can again
measure the input current using my analoge voltmeter, its still 52mA with the leds at a 17.9V DC level.
(compared to the 2.6mA at 18V for the PS setup).
So the RF is loaded down enough to have no direct influence on the meter.


Thanks,   Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 16, 2018, 11:05:16 AM
Hi Erfandl,
I missed to comment your interesting test.  Would you check the DC input current to your oscillator how it changes when the 3 crystals work?

I think the number of oscillator harmonic frequencies are greatly increased with the use of 3 crystals versus a single crystal and this comes at a price of an increased input power too.   The harmonics can only be seen by using a spectrum analyzer (or a selective voltmeter). 
If you find the input current does not increase with the use of 3 crystals, that would be good news...  8)   but I think it increases.
Gyula
Hi Gyula. thanks for reply. I tested and when I use one crystal current is 38 mA when I use three crystal the current is 33.4 mA !  so the brightness increased with lower current  ;D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 16, 2018, 04:27:37 PM
   Gyula:   I measured the current on my oscillator. Without the crystal it was 22mA, and with the crystal it was 52mA.   This is with the L3 on a load of 10 leds on an AV plug. This is with an 8v input.
   For some reason, now only the 7.2Mhz crystal is doing anything. No light with the other crystals on. 
Wireless near field distance is only about 1 cm away from the L3, as noticed on the led/av plug.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 16, 2018, 04:54:25 PM
Nick - it's actually one of my vids that your circuit came from :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2omcrkrrhoc
It can be confusing though, because Lidmotor came up with the 4 pin crystal circuit and the one I showed was found on a website a few days later. It's by KF50BS, which is presumably his Ham radio name.


All who noticed the funky scope display - The scope appears to be fine, all normal measuring results in normal traces. It only does that weirded out thing on this booster circuit.
The Ground from the scope lead is attached to the Ground of the boost circuit, which itself is connected to the Ground of the AD9850 or 2 pin crystal circuit. Common Grounds being important in these things...at least so i've always thought. Have got no problem with being wrong though if it clears up the output and scope trace !

Or is this a forehead slapping doozy of a thing ?
That because the input voltage for the sig gen or 2 pin crystal circuits is 5V and the input for the booster is 15V, the Grounds should be separate ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 16, 2018, 05:32:37 PM
Have now connected the scope Ground to the booster Ground and disconnected that link between the AD9850 and the booster.
It's still wonky  ???
Next thing will be to separate all wires as far away from each other as possible. Then shorten to be as small links as possible, then get some coax and try that for connections, then dump the boost circuit into a bath of kerosene and ignite it :)
 
Pics show the output from the AD9850+booster at 15V, at 20V and the 1kHz built-in scope test.
N.B. the scope never actually shows 13.6MHz, it will always flick between 13.5 and 13.7
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 16, 2018, 09:48:41 PM
Hi Itsu,

My bad, somehow I missed your post #555 and commented only your post #561 when you were measuring the output to the LED board in the 3 coil setup. So you already gave the answers to my most questions. 

You wrote:
Quote
...
I think we don't need the DC at that middle coil, just the RF AC to excite it.
...
Well, okay but I was pondering why the shorted DC component as a result of rectification may or may not cause loss in the setup? Because the AV plug diodes rectify the RF as they should and if you place a puffer cap across the diodes output, then DC voltage remains and the RF is killed as usual.  Now there is the coil across the diodes output and the DC is surely killed (at least voltage wise) and the RF voltage remains. This is why I mentioned this. 

In the Doc's video his scope showed only a little change in the RF amplitude the probes measured (I do not mean the Math channel) when he removed the 3rd (output) coil + LED board combo,  while in your setup the RF amplitude changes about 5V (from 17Vpp to 12Vpp) when you remove the 3rd coil.  I think this may come from the small differences between your coils especially due to the small difference between the middle and the 3rd  (output) coil.
So probably the 5 Vpp change could be reduced if you replace the input and the output coils with each other: this way, after the change, the two most identical coils would be at the critical places as I think.  Of course we do not know yet whether such 5 Vpp or whatever change at the input of the 3 coil setup may prove to be unwanted or not, I mention this because in the Doc's setup such amplitude change is not seen.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 16, 2018, 09:52:10 PM
Hi Erfandl,

Your finding the current draw is reduced with the 3 crystal and the brightness increases is interesting.   :)   Would you mind using a Pi filter in the battery supply rails? I do not really think your Ampermeter is fooled with the 3 crystals operating though.

Just connect the oscillator positive supply wire to the battery via a 1 mH (1000 uH) choke coil.  And connect one-one 10 or 22 or 47 or 100 nF capacitor across the supply rails on both sides of the choke, thus you form a Pi filter.  Such filter greatly reduces any 13.56 MHZ and higher harmonic frequencies going back towards the battery and your Ampermeter which now should be connected between the battery positive and the positive input of the choke, ok?   
Let me repeat: I do not really assume your Ampermeter shows false currents and that is why you see current reduction...  For the time being I cannot give a logical explanation. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 16, 2018, 09:58:16 PM
   Gyula:   I measured the current on my oscillator. Without the crystal it was 22mA, and with the crystal it was 52mA.   This is with the L3 on a load of 10 leds on an AV plug. This is with an 8v input.
   For some reason, now only the 7.2Mhz crystal is doing anything. No light with the other crystals on. 
Wireless near field distance is only about 1 cm away from the L3, as noticed on the led/av plug.
Nick,

Thanks for the current measurement, it shows the transistor (I assume it is still C1815) dissipates about 8 V x 52 mA=416 mW power. This is just the 400 mW limit specified for this transistor in its data sheet at 25 degree Celsius ambient temperature. (Higher ambient temps derates the 400 mW)
So I think your transistors were killed by heat dissipation when run from 12 V supply, current was surely higher than 52 mA, causing much more than 400 mW heat in the transistor, leading to destruction.

A temporary help to reduce heat in the transistor would be to use a 82 or max 100 Ohm resistor in the collector, putting it in series with the 220 uH choke coil you now have there. This way say the 52 mA current would reduce collector voltage by 82 Ohm x 0.052 A = 4.2 V  i.e. the 8 VDC supply would become only 8 - 4.2 = 3.8 VDC for the collector-emitter section, so that transistor dissipation would change to 3.8 x 52 mA = 197 mW only,  less than half of the earlier 416 mW.
Of course, this lower dissipation remains valid for the 12 V operation too but the 82 Ohm may need to be changed a little (perhaps to 76 Ohm), depending on the actual current draw. The goal is to let a 4 or max 5 VDC working collector-emitter voltage for the transistor.

The final (and not temporary) solution would be to use transistors with higher power dissipation ratings like the BD243C type or what Itsu uses. This way normal heat sink could also be used if needed while for the C1815 it is hard to clamp on a cylindrically shaped heat sink but of course it is not impossible.

Make sure that after inserting the 82 Ohm resistor in series with the 220 uH choke, the coupling capacitor should remain connected to the collector directly as before,   for the collector point should remain the oscillator output. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 16, 2018, 10:01:53 PM

Here the differential measurement across the 2th AV-plug (middle coil) using the oscillator, see screenshot 1
I have offset the both blue and purple traces for better viewing.
The math function (purple - blue) shows a negative result, even when i swap the probes.

The probes have some influence (negative) on the brightness of the leds.

The analoge voltmeter in the supply line goes all the way to max (250mA) so is again influenced by the RF field.




Doing the 1 Ohm csr measurement again using the oscillator posses some problems as the signals are far from
stable (csr in front of the trimmer cap).
Again the result is always negative which way i put the probes and the difference is about the same with
or without the 3th coil/leds strip combo inserted into the 2th coil (between -400 and -650mV).

So i do not really trust this measurement.

Screenshot 2 is with 3th coil/ledstrip inserted,
Screenshot 3 is with 3th coil/ledstrip removed.

Swapping the csr and trimmer cap (trimmer cap in front of the csr) complicates things further as the
oscillator stops when removing the 3th coil/ledstrip (needing new tuning).

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 16, 2018, 10:08:38 PM
Okay Itsu, many thanks and I will try to digest your findings today but may be able to answer tomorrow evening only, due to some travel daytime, I will see.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 16, 2018, 10:35:45 PM
Hi Itsu,

My bad, somehow I missed your post #555 and commented only your post #561 when you were measuring the output to the LED board in the 3 coil setup. So you already gave the answers to my most questions. 

You wrote: Well, okay but I was pondering why the shorted DC component as a result of rectification may or may not cause loss in the setup? Because the AV plug diodes rectify the RF as they should and if you place a puffer cap across the diodes output, then DC voltage remains and the RF is killed as usual.  Now there is the coil across the diodes output and the DC is surely killed (at least voltage wise) and the RF voltage remains. This is why I mentioned this. 

In the Doc's video his scope showed only a little change in the RF amplitude the probes measured (I do not mean the Math channel) when he removed the 3rd (output) coil + LED board combo,  while in your setup the RF amplitude changes about 5V (from 17Vpp to 12Vpp) when you remove the 3rd coil.  I think this may come from the small differences between your coils especially due to the small difference between the middle and the 3rd  (output) coil.
So probably the 5 Vpp change could be reduced if you replace the input and the output coils with each other: this way, after the change, the two most identical coils would be at the critical places as I think.  Of course we do not know yet whether such 5 Vpp or whatever change at the input of the 3 coil setup may prove to be unwanted or not, I mention this because in the Doc's setup such amplitude change is not seen.

Gyula

Gyula,

i have swapped the output coil (27uH) with the input coil (26.7uH) and left the middle coil (26.7uH).

Using my FG i measure again across the 1 Ohm csr, but still the voltage pp differs about 5V (17V v 12V)
leaving a steady 40mV difference with or without the 3th coil/leds.


The problem i notice now however is that the Vpp on the csr input (from the FG) is lower then on the
csr output, see screenshot.

Blue is on input csr (next to the red lead FG), purple is on output csr.
Math function is blue - purple giving a negative value.

I believe that was also the case (more Vpp on output) on the post #555 screenshot but am not sure.

Need to do some more tests tomorrow.


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 16, 2018, 10:36:39 PM
Okay Itsu, many thanks and I will try to digest your findings today but may be able to answer tomorrow evening only, due to some travel daytime, I will see.
Gyula
No problem, take your time,  doing the same overhere.
Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 16, 2018, 11:07:55 PM

Hi Slider,

Let me suggest this: first adjust a some kHz or some 10 kHz output frequency for the AD9850 board and check its waveform, it should not be wonky. Your scope nicely shows the 1 kHz built-in test signal, though I am surprised it has 30 Vpp amplitude ? (It can be correct of course I do not know your scope and I got used to 5 Vpp built-in test signals.)
If the lower frequencies are nice-looking, taken directly across the output from the AD9850 board, then drive the boost circuit with such low frequency signal and see then its output how it operates at low frequencies too. Of course you need to reduce the output from the generator to as low as some 10 mVpp maximum, not to overdrive the booster.
If that also seems ok, then increase the output frequency and sweep or simply step through up to the hundred kHz and then to the some MHz range.

I just watched your video entitled "AD9850 signal generator - arrived, built, tested" where you went up to 29.999 MHz.
Would like to ask whether the output impedance for the AD9850 board is specified as ?  Is it a low impedance like 50 Ohm or some hundred Ohm?  I ask this because as you surely know, normally such generators should be terminated by a non inductive resistance that equals to their own output impedance, this way the change you see as a gradual amplitude decrease across the output becomes less than in the unterminated case. OF course I know that for the Doc's tests the generator is used as unterminated but if a booster is used then a decent termination across the generator output is helpful for a nicer output waveform.
Be careful with such termination directly across the generator output because if there is a DC level at the output too, then it should not be terminated by a low value resistor directly but only via a series coupling capacitor. 

"then dump the boost circuit into a bath of kerosene and ignite it :) "   I think you can wait with this...  ;D

Gyula
Edit: if the waveforms remain 'wonky' via the booster only (but good from the gen output), then try to use a 9 or 12 V battery as the power supply for the booster to make it totally ground independent and see the waveforms then. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 17, 2018, 12:41:34 AM
@gyula, slider:
Yes, the Rigol scope puts out a 3v (approx) max p-p voltage from the probe compensator output. The probe 1x-10x switch or the channel attenuation setting is not correct in Slider's scopeshot above.


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 17, 2018, 08:04:57 AM
Gyula - Many thanks for the tips.
Will try the 9V battery and look into the exact terminations. All I usually see is 'into a 50ohm load' and have no real idea how the load can be exactly terminated in that way. It's all new, apologies for that.

TK - OMG, as they say, yes of course. The scope is usually over at the usual bench, but I tend to move it to the far cleaner table for vids etc. The usual scope lead was over at the other bench, so I grabbed another and...didn't check whether it was on 1x or 10x
:)

All - Found something of possible interest, which I would have thought would have reared as a fault or feature, but haven't seen it mentioned. The Dr. Stiffler type L3, with 2x AV plugs, an LED and length of floral wire can be used as a tester for mains wiring continuity.
The circuit is shown in the video and there is a positive reaction with wood, believe it or not. Maybe it's because of the humidity here in Oklahoma, but the thing has some very strange properties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4hCiUUcZ18
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: shylo on July 17, 2018, 10:34:51 AM
Hi Slider,
That is interesting, how is the floral wire connected? I assume the circuit you showed is showing the 75 turns on tube connected to the diodesor is that the floral wire and you don't show the 75 turn coil?Thanks artv
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 17, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
Hi Erfandl,

Your finding the current draw is reduced with the 3 crystal and the brightness increases is interesting.   :)   Would you mind using a Pi filter in the battery supply rails? I do not really think your Ampermeter is fooled with the 3 crystals operating though.

Just connect the oscillator positive supply wire to the battery via a 1 mH (1000 uH) choke coil.  And connect one-one 10 or 22 or 47 or 100 nF capacitor across the supply rails on both sides of the choke, thus you form a Pi filter.  Such filter greatly reduces any 13.56 MHZ and higher harmonic frequencies going back towards the battery and your Ampermeter which now should be connected between the battery positive and the positive input of the choke, ok?   
Let me repeat: I do not really assume your Ampermeter shows false currents and that is why you see current reduction...  For the time being I cannot give a logical explanation. 

Gyula
Hi gyula. thanks for reply. can you draw Pi filter circuit ? I cant understand how to build the Pi filter. thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 17, 2018, 01:55:57 PM
Shylo - The floral wire connects to the negative lead of the LED.
The other end of it is buried somewhere in the spool it is on.
In practice, you can simply hold the circuit by that point and it will still partially work around mains wiring. The floral wire is like a big clip lead.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 17, 2018, 04:29:08 PM
   Slider:   Today I'll be picking up two different DC to DC step up converters. So we'll see how their outputs compares to your converter, as far as signal noise goes.

   I found the problem with not having wireless effects. It was just a bad diode in the loop used on the leds bulb. Now it works, and has a near field effect, although somewhat limited in gain.
   I also can light the 10 led bulb by capacitance, which was what I could not do before.
   So, in moving forward with this project I will be using a higher powered transistor that can handle the 35v that the converters can provide.
   Gyula:  I placed a resistor on the input to the oscillator circuit, in line with the 220 choke that is connected to the transistor. And now the circuit works (all night long), and does not overheat the transistor. However, the output gain is restricted, as compared to before the resistor was placed. That was to be expected, as any resistor is going to lessen the output by wasting the tiny bit of input juice, as heat. I haven't finished with these tests yet, once I do I'll let you know just what value resistor works best at what voltage levels.  But, I need the DC to DC converters for those tests.
   I also added a puffer cap of 47uf 100v, across the diode loop that's on the led board.  It does helps to brighten things up a bit.
   The best way to go for varying loads, is with a controllable trim pot on the base, and on the transistor's control/emitter, also.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: shylo on July 17, 2018, 04:40:14 PM
Slider,
So the two positive diodes coming off the leads of the 75 turn coil (paralleled) are connected to the negative of the LED?Which is only connected to one end of the floral wire?Sorry just a little confused.Thanks artv
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 17, 2018, 06:42:36 PM
Gyula - Many thanks for the tips.
Will try the 9V battery and look into the exact terminations. All I usually see is 'into a 50ohm load' and have no real idea how the load can be exactly terminated in that way. It's all new, apologies for that.

TK - OMG, as they say, yes of course. The scope is usually over at the usual bench, but I tend to move it to the far cleaner table for vids etc. The usual scope lead was over at the other bench, so I grabbed another and...didn't check whether it was on 1x or 10x
:)

All - Found something of possible interest, which I would have thought would have reared as a fault or feature, but haven't seen it mentioned. The Dr. Stiffler type L3, with 2x AV plugs, an LED and length of floral wire can be used as a tester for mains wiring continuity.
The circuit is shown in the video and there is a positive reaction with wood, believe it or not. Maybe it's because of the humidity here in Oklahoma, but the thing has some very strange properties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4hCiUUcZ18
Hi slider. Thanks for sharing video. I think if you using germanium diodes like 1N60 or AA119 get better result.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 12:07:51 AM
Hi Itsu,

Regarding your differential voltage measurement across the middle coil in Reply #590: the waveforms are quasi identical, the 1 V difference is very small with respect to the 43-44 Vpp amplitudes. I believe the small decrease in brightness you notice due to the probes connection may happen because the differential probe capacitance may detune the middle coil. 
I cannot guess why the Math trace goes negative, a crazy idea would say: flip the AV diodes polarity going to the middle coil and see then whether it changes to positive or remains negative?
Regarding your 1 Ohm csr measurements (when run from the oscillator) and also with swapping the output and input coils (when run from the FG): it comes that my thought to blame the small difference in input and output coils inductance would not explain the around 5 V change on the 1 Ohm when you remove or attach the output coil/LED combo. I still think though that the answer may still inherently be in the tuning of the coils, perhaps try to use a small piece of powdered iron RF core and approach it to each coil to reduce their own resonance and see any change in the 5 V issue. Of course, when you have time and the mood because this is not so important at this time and maybe it will not be. But it is still good the Math output value does not change when removing the 3rd coil/LED combo.   Thanks for all your efforts.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 12:29:40 AM
Hi TinselKoala,  thanks for the info on the 3 V amplitude test signal for this scope type. A 30 Vpp amplitude would have no sense.

Hi Slider,

I did some search and came up with a approximate schematic on the output circuit of the AD9850 chip, you can see it as the last picture in the vertical picture icons on the  left side at the seller Amazon site:https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-AD9850-Generator-0-40MHz-Equipment/dp/B01J7XPWNU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1531858422&sr=8-2&keywords=hiletgo+dds+ad9850+signal+generator+module (https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-AD9850-Generator-0-40MHz-Equipment/dp/B01J7XPWNU/ref=sr_1_2?  ie=UTF8&qid=1531858422&sr=8-2&keywords=hiletgo+dds+ad9850+signal+generator+module) 
So it turns out there has to be at least one 200 Ohm chip resistor on Pin 20 or 21 to the negative ground and a second 200 Ohm chip resistor directly across the sinewave RF output also to the ground.

Switch off the supply voltages and measure with an Ohm meter across this output, you may find either around 100 Ohm value or around 200 Ohm value.  For the 100 Ohm case the two 200 Ohms are in place these terminate the output and the input of a low pass filter you see in the schematic I refer to above (the input of the filter is driven from Pin 20 or 21 which are the outputs of the Digital to Analog converters).  If you find around 200 Ohm across the sinewave output then this output is probaly not terminated by 200 Ohm internally, in this case your generatour output impedance is around 200 Ohm and you need to use a 200 Ohm chip resistor to terminate it if your desire is to flatten the output amplitude response you objected in the board test video.  Of course the use of the 200 Ohm termination involves halving the output voltage amplitude as is always the case with generator outputs when they are terminated by their own internal impedance (resistance).   
This is shortly for you...  8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 12:32:18 AM
Hi gyula. thanks for reply. can you draw Pi filter circuit ? I cant understand how to build the Pi filter. thanks
Sure, here it is.  It shows the place for inserting an Ampermeter too.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 12:40:53 AM
Hi Nick,
Okay and yes the price for less heat comes with some decrease in output amplitude, this is why I wrote temporary solution, not to kill more transistors yet doing some more tinkerings.When you get transistors like BD243C or similar with higher power dissipation ratings, they still should be protected against excess heat by mounting them on heat sink.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 18, 2018, 03:44:48 AM
     Gyula:
   Yes, well I had my oscillator all set up for using a 2SC5200 transistor (250v, or so) with heat sink, but somehow it was not working. And although it was fairly new and not used hardly, but, it was burnt out, somehow.   I'll be getting the right best transistor for this crystal rig, once I know which is the best bet.
I've been trying out and deep frying some of the transistors that I have on hand, first. As always...
I did add a 47uf (not pf), 100v capacitor onto the diode loop, at the led bulbs. And it did add a bit more gain to the light output levels.  It's nice to have a holder for the transistors, along with a holder for the crystal, for easy replacing or testing, along with a heat sink and fan for the transistors, if needed.
And it probably will be needed...
   So, I picked up my two DC to DC converters today. And made a video while testing one of them out, ( link below). 
 The converter is turned all the way down, as I need to add some more resistance to the base circuit. So that I can run the booster at higher voltages, and/or from my small 5 watt, 12v, (more like 22v, open circuit) solar panel. The booster will go to 55v, or so, but, my transistor may not.
   Anyways, one thing at a time...  Todays, tests:  https://youtu.be/8A79fK7Tg5k (https://youtu.be/8A79fK7Tg5k)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 18, 2018, 03:34:20 PM
Sure, here it is.  It shows the place for inserting an Ampermeter too.
thanks Gyula. I build the Pi filter circuit and testing the crystal current. with one crystal current is 28.41 mA and with three crystal current is 23.12 mAh also light output increased with three crystal ! the L3 coil now working without ferrite rod !
DC DC boost converter pull 3.4 mA from battery !!!



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 18, 2018, 09:46:38 PM
Hi Itsu,

Regarding your differential voltage measurement across the middle coil in Reply #590: the waveforms are quasi identical, the 1 V difference is very small with respect to the 43-44 Vpp amplitudes. I believe the small decrease in brightness you notice due to the probes connection may happen because the differential probe capacitance may detune the middle coil. 
I cannot guess why the Math trace goes negative, a crazy idea would say: flip the AV diodes polarity going to the middle coil and see then whether it changes to positive or remains negative?
Regarding your 1 Ohm csr measurements (when run from the oscillator) and also with swapping the output and input coils (when run from the FG): it comes that my thought to blame the small difference in input and output coils inductance would not explain the around 5 V change on the 1 Ohm when you remove or attach the output coil/LED combo. I still think though that the answer may still inherently be in the tuning of the coils, perhaps try to use a small piece of powdered iron RF core and approach it to each coil to reduce their own resonance and see any change in the 5 V issue. Of course, when you have time and the mood because this is not so important at this time and maybe it will not be. But it is still good the Math output value does not change when removing the 3rd coil/LED combo.   Thanks for all your efforts.
Gyula

Gyula,

i don't think i will do much more investigations on this positive/negative Math outcome as i have been fooled before with these type of open/floating systems.

The scope and FG are not designed to do measurements this way, so the results are unpredictical and unreliable.

I will be waiting for further updates from the Dr. Stiffler channel if any.

Thanks for all your input and efforts to help us.



I did use my oscillator driving again the capacitively coupled ledstrip but now with up to 3 crystals like erfandl did.

I does show that when inserting extra crystals the output stays the same but the input current goes down, but only with a very limited value, like 60mA to 58mA to 57mA.

Probably my tank circuit setup behaves differently in that respect.

Regards Itsu 

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
Nick,

You can prevent frying your transistors in advance.  For the types you have on hand, first look up each in the data sheet for power dissipation, PD, collector current IC and collector-emitter breakdown voltage VCEo.   And you need a heat_sink_mountable casing style too.  If you find PD is higher than 1-2 Watts, IC is at least 0.5A or higher and VCEo is higher than 100 V, then your devices will not fry at the very first switch-on moments due to overvoltage breakdown or little later due to getting hot.  The parameter hFE is the higher the better,  preferably be higher than 100.

If you plan to run such oscillators from supply voltages higher than  say 35-40V, then you would need at least 150 V rated VCEo
transistors or rather 200 V rated or higher when you crank up the converter to the max 55 V. 

Thanks for showing the video, you have made good progress and surely gained more practice to light that LED board just by the very loose capacitive coupling. You may test whether the use of the green clip lead from the AV plug diodes could be eliminated by connecting the same point of the diodes to the negative (or positive) supply rail via a short piece of wire.
First the brightness may not be the same like with the clip lead wire but in this case you could use a trimmer or variable capacitor between the LED board back plate and the free end of your air core coil, maybe the earlier brightness could be restored by that (or maybe not, only tests can give answer).Okay on the use of the 47 uF electrolytic capacitor across the LED board wire outputs.  Probably the brightness will not change much when you try to measure the DC voltage across that capacitor by your voltmeter, it is good to know the DC voltage the LED board and the 2 diodes develop from the RF capacitive coupling.

I made a snapshop from your video on the circuit board. You mentioned to put in a resistor you think was less than a 100 Ohm: which is it, can it be seen in this picture? I assume you refer to the one I suggested to use in series with the choke coil in the collector, to reduce heat dissipation in the transistor? 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
Hi Erfandl,

Okay, thanks for showing the current measurement results.  As I indicated before I did not blame the validity of your previous measurement on the reducement in input current when using 3 crystals in parallel: with oscillators it is always a good practice to filter the supply rails when measuring DC input current or learn about DC input power.   
So the mistery remains why the input current reduces and the brightness increases.
I think you have a 3rd 1000 uH choke coil available, right? Would you put this 3rd choke in parallel with the collector choke coil ? First do it with a single crystal and watch input current and brightness when you plug in the 3rd choke, then do the same when the 3 crystals are plugged in again. By the way, what is the resistance of such chokes? You can measure it with your digital multimeter when they are not plugged into the circuit.
With the parallel connection of two chokes in the collector I do not expect anything fancy would happen, just a suggestion to learn on its effect if any.  What you found as good by using the Pi filter is now there is no need for the use of the ferrite rod...  8)

You wrote: "DC DC boost converter pull 3.4 mA from battery !!!"

Would you tell what is the battery voltage you use to drive the boost converter?  And what is the output voltage you set the the converter to?  Just wish to know whether the 3.4 mA is a typo instead of say 34 mA ?

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2018, 10:24:42 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, I understand and agree, no problem.  Thank you for doing all these tests and spending on the transistors too.  We all learn.

It is good you tested connecting 3 crystals in parallel. However if you found the output remains the same, then that is different from that of Erfandl finding: his brightness increases with using 3 crystals. 

You also found though that the input current decreases a little as in Erfandl's oscillator.  It is very possible though that with such 2-3 mA or so small input current reduction the brightness may be invisible small too, this can explain you found the output unchanged.

EDIT:  It occured to me that crystals have a parallel capacitance across their wires or pins which is measurable by a pF meter only because the capacitance value is around  3 to 5 pF.  If 3 such crystals are connected in parallel, then these values add up to anywhere from say 9 pF to 15 pF of course.   This may already have an effect in the oscillator circuit: this capacitance appears across the base and the collector and can influence feed back. 
From this it comes that if a trimmer capacitor of max 15 pF value is connected in parallel with the single crystal working in the oscillator, then it may have the same effect?  It may not justify such results but 3 crystals certainly have 3 times as high self capacitance...  :)

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 19, 2018, 10:48:26 AM

Gyula,

concerning the output of my 3 crystal setup, i measured it with my scope (3 turn on toroid) and it did not
raise the output on the scope (looking at it on a tenth of a volt range).


But i was able to retune the variable cap / base trimmer pot for more output / more input current after
adding a new crystal, so there is some change in the tank / resonance circuit.


By adding a series trimmer cap to the crystal, one can change the crystal frequency a bit, so probably the
parallel capacitance added by extra crystals will change the resonance frequency also a bit needing a retune for
max.

 
Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 19, 2018, 11:53:33 AM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, thanks.  I agree with what you wrote on connecting a capacitor in series or in parallel with a crystal.
 
I was thinking on again whether my thought on adding a trimmer cap in parallel with the single crystal in the oscillator to mimic the capacitance of 3 paralleled crystals is a good one or not: because we run the crystal in an oscillator the trimmer cap should have more drastic (negative) effect between the collector-base points than the capacitance of the 3 crystals i.e. the trimmer cap cannot really mimic the role of 3 crystals. The trimmer cap does not possess the other properties of the crystals like a series LC circuit too, (besides the parallel LC) each crstal has.

With the three crystals, the harmonic spectrum may change and become reacher but because the crystals are surely within maximum some hundred Hz from each other, the spectrum lines could be seen quasy as a bit fatter, thicker at every harmonic spots. To see the 3 vertical lines at say the 3rd harmonic, you would need to expand, stretch out the horizontal frequency axis of the analyzer to see the 3 lines at that harmonic where so far there was only one vertical line. At the 5th harmonic the 3 vertical lines may get a bit further away from each other so they could be seen easier and so on.  This is because 3 crystals (running at nearly identical frequencies) should have three spectrum lines at the spots where a single crystal has only one line, this is so at each harmonics of course.

The increased number of harmonics in this sense may explain why Erfandl found an increase in the brightness when he used 3 crystals. We need to notice he does not have a resonant tank in the collector so all the harmonics may have higher amplitudes hence all can contribute to increase brightness a little. But there remains the question why the input current decreases with the 3 crystals?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 19, 2018, 10:05:26 PM

Hmmm,

i used my SA to measure the main peak (13.6Mhz) of the Crystal oscillator using 1 and 5 crystals parallel.

First screenshot is with 1 crystal inserted, second screenshot is with 5 crystals parallel.

I do not see any foul up of the signal like 5 adjacend peaks on the 5 crystal screenshot.
I do see that the signal is higher in frequency (parallel capacitance?) and stronger (sympathetic resonance?) on the 5 crystal screenshot.

I also have some screenshots of a spectrum range overview which shows that the 1x crystal has less stronger
harmonics then the 5x parallel crystal circuit has which seems to confirm Gyula's statement.

For what its worth,   itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 19, 2018, 10:33:26 PM
Hi Itsu,

I am mistaken, sorry and the crystals should be so close to each other that they cannot oscillate individually what I thought.  This is what your measurement basically shows, right?  Thanks for checking this.

Maybe you also checked this same at the 5th or say at the 7th harmonic of the 13.56 MHz on the SA? where any difference may manifest at a higher distance on the frequency axis.
I mean if there is a difference of say 70 Hz between two paralleled crystals at 13.56 MHz, then this difference will be 5x or 7x 70 = 350 Hz or 490 Hz which may be already easier to notice IF these two lines exist,  that is.
Suppose IF these two vertical lines existed next to each other with a distance between them being 490 Hz at around 95 MHz, would the SA zoom-in resolution be fine enough to notice it? this can also be a question provided the two lines exist of course.
Will think on this further on. Comments are welcome from anyone of course.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 20, 2018, 06:05:30 AM
I tried an old Dr. Stiffler 'one wire energy transmission' experiment today using my 13.56MHz Crystal Oscillator.  It worked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KzctX1oxzE

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 20, 2018, 08:28:47 AM
Hi Erfandl,

Okay, thanks for showing the current measurement results.  As I indicated before I did not blame the validity of your previous measurement on the reducement in input current when using 3 crystals in parallel: with oscillators it is always a good practice to filter the supply rails when measuring DC input current or learn about DC input power.   
So the mistery remains why the input current reduces and the brightness increases.
I think you have a 3rd 1000 uH choke coil available, right? Would you put this 3rd choke in parallel with the collector choke coil ? First do it with a single crystal and watch input current and brightness when you plug in the 3rd choke, then do the same when the 3 crystals are plugged in again. By the way, what is the resistance of such chokes? You can measure it with your digital multimeter when they are not plugged into the circuit.
With the parallel connection of two chokes in the collector I do not expect anything fancy would happen, just a suggestion to learn on its effect if any.  What you found as good by using the Pi filter is now there is no need for the use of the ferrite rod...  8)

You wrote: "DC DC boost converter pull 3.4 mA from battery !!!"

Would you tell what is the battery voltage you use to drive the boost converter?  And what is the output voltage you set the the converter to?  Just wish to know whether the 3.4 mA is a typo instead of say 34 mA ?

Thanks,  Gyula
Hi gyula. the battery is 3.7 volt and the boost coverter output is 24 volt. today I testing the brightness output with my own LUX meter BH1750 sensor and Blynk app. here the result
also with three crystal LUX is stable ( screenshot test with three crystal )

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 20, 2018, 10:38:35 AM
Hi Itsu,

I am mistaken, sorry and the crystals should be so close to each other that they cannot oscillate individually what I thought.  This is what your measurement basically shows, right?  Thanks for checking this.

Maybe you also checked this same at the 5th or say at the 7th harmonic of the 13.56 MHz on the SA? where any difference may manifest at a higher distance on the frequency axis.
I mean if there is a difference of say 70 Hz between two paralleled crystals at 13.56 MHz, then this difference will be 5x or 7x 70 = 350 Hz or 490 Hz which may be already easier to notice IF these two lines exist,  that is.
Suppose IF these two vertical lines existed next to each other with a distance between them being 490 Hz at around 95 MHz, would the SA zoom-in resolution be fine enough to notice it? this can also be a question provided the two lines exist of course.
Will think on this further on. Comments are welcome from anyone of course.

Gyula

Gyula,

sorry, yes i did take a look to some harmonics (5th, 7th) the same way as the base peak, and also did not notice any difference.

The above screenshot where taken with a frequency span of 306kHz, so at the 7th harmonics i should have seen something i guess.

Below the 2 screenshots from the spectrum overview showing the harmonics with both 1 crystal in and then 5.
Peak 8 is again a strong local  Fm station leaking through.



Itsu

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 20, 2018, 05:57:34 PM
I tried an old Dr. Stiffler 'one wire energy transmission' experiment today using my 13.56MHz Crystal Oscillator.  It worked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KzctX1oxzE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KzctX1oxzE)

--Lidmotor
Hi Lidmotor,

Your air core coil (let's label it as La) identical to the Doc's L3 type and mounted on that prototype board just absorbs resonant energy from the other L3 air core coil (let's label it Lb) that is driven by the crystal oscillator.  Because both La and Lb coils have the same resonance frequency, part of the resonant energy from Lb is transferred to La by so called mutual induction,  this is why the LEDs can light up on the proto board when a high enough induced voltage can defeat their threshold voltage level via the AV plug diodes.

The word "mutual" has importance: it indicates that both La and Lb have become part of a common resonant system and do influence each other: whenever you tune Lb coil to the xtal frequency while the La coil is not nearby, then you need to retune it again when your La coil is placed close to it. AND this explains why the LEDs at the other end of the long single wire is distinguished the moment La is coupled to Lb: an Lb coil detuned from the crystal frequency cannot provide enough energy to light that remote LEDs. This is the 'sort of dynamics' (as you put it) going on when you move back and forth the La coil placed on the proto board (video time 2:40).   You can look up the term 'mutual inductance' by goodle if needed.

A notice: I think the output voltage of your boost converter is influenced by the near field of the long single wire and probably also by the EM field of  coils La and Lb.  Have you noticed the output DC voltage was 13.4V at the start of the video and it climbed up to 18.2V by video time 1:39?  And when you move back and forth the proto board with the La coil on it, the DC output goes down to 13.2V and then up to 14-15V (around video time 2:40).
And when you put down the board the voltage settles at 13.2V again (2:48) and as you moved your hand nearby the converter and the coils the DC output was fluctuating and went up 14.1 V or so at the end of the video. 
Probably the EM field creeps into the control circuit of the boost converter IC and fools it at times.  By studying the IC pins (if the chip is idenfyable) where control may have input, some 10 to 22nF ceramic capacitors may help filter the RF influence.
Thanks for making and showing this setup.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 20, 2018, 06:09:12 PM
Hi gyula. the battery is 3.7 volt and the boost coverter output is 24 volt. today I testing the brightness output with my own LUX meter BH1750 sensor and Blynk app. here the result
also with three crystal LUX is stable ( screenshot test with three crystal )
Hi Erfandl,
Thanks for the Lux meter screenshots, they nicely show the higher light outputs as you placed 2 and 3 crystals in parallel.

Okay on your boost converter has 24 V DC output, and its input receives the 3.7 V battery.
Now please explain where is the 3.4 mA current measured you mentioned in your earlier post above? Or was it 34 mA?

I understand that the current input to the oscillator reduces when you use 3 crystals (from 28.4 mA to 23.1 mA):  did you use the 24 V DC from the boost converter back then?

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 20, 2018, 06:36:29 PM
Gyula,
sorry, yes i did take a look to some harmonics (5th, 7th) the same way as the base peak, and also did not notice any difference.
The above screenshot where taken with a frequency span of 306kHz, so at the 7th harmonics i should have seen something i guess.
Below the 2 screenshots from the spectrum overview showing the harmonics with both 1 crystal in and then 5.
Peak 8 is again a strong local  Fm station leaking through.
Itsu
Hi Itsu,
Many thanks for all these measurements.  I will think on this multi crystal oscillator operation further on and return to it when a useful explanation can be found.

I would make a single notice to the spectrum analyser screen shots you kindly included.  If I compare the harmonic frequency values reported under the swept screens I find they are fully identical, both for the single xtal case and the 5 xtal case. 

For instance say the 7th harmonic is at 94.778611 MHz with the single xtal and the same with the 5 xtals, only the amplitudes differ which is okay of course.  I mean you earlier measured about 5 kHz difference between the 1 and the 5 xtals at the base frequency:  13.559 MHz for the single xtal and 13.564 MHz for the 5 xtals  (from your Reply #615) and this 5 kHz shift is ok for the 5 xtal case due to the higher self capacitance in parallel.

I would think that all the harmonic frequencies for the 5 xtal case would shift also higher by several kHz, compared the same to the single xtal harmonics.   Understand?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 20, 2018, 09:09:55 PM

Gyula,

yes i did notice that too, but i think its due to the nature of this SA, its not a professional one,
its probably one of the cheapest you can buy and lacks some accuracy on this 124Mhz range.

Zooming in onto a specific peak will show the accurate frequency (like 13.559Mhz for a 13.56Mhz crystal).


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 20, 2018, 09:16:55 PM
Okay Itsu, thanks and I also suspected the SA may cause that. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 20, 2018, 09:36:48 PM
Gyula---Thanks for the analysis of my last video showing the one wire transmission setup.   Your 'mutual induction' explanation regarding the coils was very interesting. Those coils sure are having a conversation about something and telling that light at the end of the string to-- HEY LIGHT UP.  I'm glad that you also noticed that the DC - DC voltage booster was being effected by the whole thing.  Fascinating stuff.  Thanks.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 20, 2018, 09:45:35 PM
Hi Lidmotor,
I need to make an addition to my post above:  it is inductive coupling which also happening between the two resonant coils and they 'mutually' detune each other, the closer they are placed to each other.  This also needs considering and can be corrected by retuning them.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 20, 2018, 10:37:13 PM

I went back to the basic circuit like erfandl (12.5V battery, 1K resistor, 200K trimmer pot, 22pF C/E cap,
100nF coupling cap), so no tank circuit (toroid / var cap) and measured the input current and the output
signal to the L3 /ledstrip combo.

No leds where lighting.

nbr of x-tals    output voltage pp    input current
1                    10.6Vpp                  6.86mA
2                    11.2Vpp                  6.80mA
3                    11.7Vpp                  6.75mA
4                    11.9Vpp                  6.71mA
5                    12.2Vpp                  6.65mA


Itsu   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 20, 2018, 10:47:43 PM
Hi Itsu,
Very useful, thank you. 

I think Erfandl uses a 1000 uH choke coil in the collector and not a 1 kOhm resistor any more.
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg523714/#msg523714 (https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg523714/#msg523714) 
This involves a much higher than 1 kOhm, mainly inductive and increasing impedance for the collector current and its harmonics.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 21, 2018, 01:02:42 PM
Hi Itsu,

I may have sounded a bit unpolite by mentioning quickly the choke coil in the collector while you used the 1 k resistor, sorry for this. I only wanted to indicate the current decrease with the increasing number of paralleled xtals would be more pronounced when a choke coil is in the collector, a resistor limits both the AC and DC currents while a coil limits mainly the AC current.
Anyway, it remains to be figured out why the input DC current reduces and the output RF power increases when the number of xtals is increased in this oscillator.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 21, 2018, 03:12:13 PM

Quote
Hi Itsu,

I may have sounded a bit unpolite by mentioning quickly the choke coil in the collector while you used the 1 k resistor, sorry for this. I only wanted to indicate the current decrease with the increasing number of paralleled xtals would be more pronounced when a choke coil is in the collector, a resistor limits both the AC and DC currents while a coil limits mainly the AC current.
Anyway, it remains to be figured out why the input DC current reduces and the output RF power increases when the number of xtals is increased in this oscillator.

Gyula

Gyula,

no problem, i am not that easily offended, i was already looking for a 1mH choke with which i can redo the tests.

Could it not be that with more parallel crystals the Q goes up resulting in a higher output (but
smaller peak) and stronger dip in current at resonance?

I will check that tonight with the choke and my SA.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 21, 2018, 06:03:08 PM
Gyula,

no problem, i am not that easily offended, i was already looking for a 1mH choke with which i can redo the tests.

Could it not be that with more parallel crystals the Q goes up resulting in a higher output (but
smaller peak) and stronger dip in current at resonance?

I will check that tonight with the choke and my SA.

Itsu

   Itsu: 
   I think that is the case...   
   The more current the circuit can output, the amplitude goes drops.
   Using the 1k resistor can hog up a lot of juice. And is the reason that the voltage can be upped. But, my little C1815 still gets hot at 12v though, and too hot at 15v, on up.  But, I'll try the carbon 1k next, as I don't have a 1000uH choke on hand.   
   
   
   Here is an interesting video. Placing a magnet on the coil, and using no current to light a super bright LED bulb.   
   This may have some connection to the Doc's ideas,  maybe.    https://youtu.be/ZKjj4x9zhvs (https://youtu.be/ZKjj4x9zhvs)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 21, 2018, 07:57:29 PM
I call it spike maker another wave shaping circuit. Almost has two states.
The voltage spike has very low current can induce some local resonance.
I liken the spike to a small hammer. efficient at ringing but does not yield much light.
The 50% sine does work, the magnetic component is coherent. Good for increasing brightness.

In a two transistor oscillator where wave shaping is needed we get involved in network
of matching impedance (winding impedance matching transformers) when we add a second stage
is done to accomplish gain. In the bigger picture we look at various systems of feed back loops
and coupling mechanisms that are efficient at transferring power.

When we build the variety using SRF the circuit are sensitive, requiring more patience and finesse.
It does not take much to shift these circuits into a different state so it can be difficult to get them to run at first.

In a three coil system, coils use peak resonance but also SRF. The two coils set parallel the third perpendicular.
Question might be, if coils resonate at a particular frequency what is the SRF frequency good for?

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 21, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
   Here is a scope shot of my oscillator running on a 7.2MHz crystal, on 15v.  This crystal shows the highest amplitude, but not necessarlly the best wireless effects. The wireless effects on the multi led board is going out about three inches away from the L3.
   
   Gyula: On the oscillator, you will now notice the 68ohm resistor between the 221 choke, and the transistor collector.
Yet, that resistor is not doing much to control the transistor overheating at over 15v.
   A 1k resistor works better towards heat control at higher voltages, but providing for less output to the bulbs. Catch 22.     I'll be going to a higher voltage transistor, next, as the C1815 seams to be the bottle neck.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 21, 2018, 09:05:23 PM
...   
   Here is an interesting video. Placing a magnet on the coil, and using no current to light a super bright LED bulb.   
   This may have some connection to the Doc's ideas,  maybe.    https://youtu.be/ZKjj4x9zhvs (https://youtu.be/ZKjj4x9zhvs)
Nick,

As I watch the video you gave the link to, my impression is the magnet (when he approaches it to the reed coil) just
stops the oscillator, no? 
When the magnet is sitting on the table away from the circuit, the oscillator starts as he cranks up input voltage to
around 2.1 V and then he sets it to 3.2 V to have a nice brightness (through the magnifying lense top of the LED)
at 2.15 mA input current, the permanent magnet has no role during this time.
Then he approaches the magnet to the reed switch and the strong field stops the mechanically oscillating reed
contacts (quasi 'glued' them together) which so far interrupted the input current and the reed coil resistance took
the 11.9 mA current without interruption. The reed contacts were the Normally Closed type he used and the magnetic
field of the coil at any switch-on time made them OFF.
Would like to show you another oscillator from him, see here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I24nDi_q-EU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I24nDi_q-EU) 
This setup does need the close presence of a permanent magnet to start and maintain oscillations. Here he uses
the Normally Off contacts of the reed switch and the presence of the weak and static permanent magnet field is
which forces the contacts to close the battery circuit (schematic is in the upper right corner at the ened of the video).
And when the input current suddenly creates its field in the coil, it should be stronger than the weak static field and
the contacts open,  so coil flux collapses and the static field can close the contacts again.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 21, 2018, 09:23:04 PM

5 crystal test done with a 1mH (102) choke instead of the 1K resistor in the supply line (12.5V).

First set with the base resistor set at 100K:
 
nbr of x-tals    output voltage (Vpp)    input current (mA)
1                    32.2                            14.6
2                    33.7                            13
3                    34.2                            12   
4                    33.9                            12.5
5                    33.8                            12.1

Then with base resistor set at 60mA input current with 1 crystal = 23K:

nbr of x-tals    output voltage (Vpp)    input current (mA)
1                    39                               60
2                    41.4                            44
3                    42.8                            37.8
4                    38.9                            54
5                    39.5                            49.6


So there seems to be a turning point after the 3th crystal.

I also tried with even lower base resistance (>100mA input current), but things got unstable and
heated up the transistor, trimmer pot and even the crystals.
The leds on the last test where very very dimly on.

The SA did not show any change in main peak (13.56MHz) bandwidth, the Occupied BandWidth (OBW) measurement shows 66.666% for all 5 settings (1 to 5 crystals)

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 21, 2018, 09:33:36 PM
Nick,
Well, at 15 V supply voltage the series resistor in the collector should be in the some hundred Ohms range at least
but as I wrote in Reply #589 its actual value depends strongly on the actual input current  the oscillator takes from
a higher supply voltage.
What is the input current now from 15 V and you find the transistor overheats with the series 68 Ohm?
 Did you measure it and calculated the dissipation and confronted it with the 400 mW allowed ?? 
(this 400mW already makes it pretty warm and valid for 25 degree ambient room temp)
IT would have been enough for me if you simply described in a few words where you had placed that series resistor
back then, no need for showing where it is now. 
Thanks for the pictures 
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 21, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
Hi Itsu,

Very interesting and quasi unexpected results for sure, thanks.

With your pF meter would you check the capacitance of the 5 paralleled xtals, please? 
(not in the circuit board but separately from any circuit, maybe using clips to keep the wire legs together,
and do not solder them)

You wrote:  "Could it not be that with more parallel crystals the Q goes up resulting in a higher output
(but smaller peak) and stronger dip in current at resonance?"

Well, the increase of the Q for the parallel xtals as a result may be possible, I can accept that. But I cannot see yet
how this higher Q has influence to invoke higher output? The xtals are not in the output side but between the 'input'
and output points of the active device, right? This way the high Q cannot increase output voltage (power)
while input current decreases.  If we placed a full LC tank in the collector and could increase its Q somehow,
then you were right with the stronger dip in (collector) current at resonance, I would agree.
I do not get what you meant with ("but smaller peak") ?   

I will return to this later, maybe tomorrow.

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 21, 2018, 10:32:24 PM

Gyula,

with "but smaller peak" i mean smaller bandwidth, so higher Q, smaller bandwidth, higher output.

But i agree with what you say about "The xtals are not in the output side but".


I measured the 5 crystals with my LCR meter and the values are:

1 =   5pF
2 =   8pF
3 =  11pF
4 =  15pF
5 =  18pF 

So about 3pF parallel capacitance each.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 22, 2018, 05:33:25 AM
Why not try crystals of _different_ frequencies in the parallel stack? The spectrum analyzer display should be interesting....
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 22, 2018, 08:23:17 AM
Hi Erfandl,
Thanks for the Lux meter screenshots, they nicely show the higher light outputs as you placed 2 and 3 crystals in parallel.

Okay on your boost converter has 24 V DC output, and its input receives the 3.7 V battery.
Now please explain where is the 3.4 mA current measured you mentioned in your earlier post above? Or was it 34 mA?

I understand that the current input to the oscillator reduces when you use 3 crystals (from 28.4 mA to 23.1 mA):  did you use the 24 V DC from the boost converter back then?

Thanks,
Gyula
sorry for the battery current. the battery current today I testing is 228 mAh. now I using 5 crystal, output current is 20 mAh and brightness output is 10150 LUX.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 22, 2018, 10:45:35 AM
Why not try crystals of _different_ frequencies in the parallel stack? The spectrum analyzer display should be interesting....
Yes, this would be a good next step in exploring this.  I think the oscillator will become and function
as an RF mixer too. 
Provided the second crystal is willing to oscillate too, in parallel with the 13.56 MHz,   that is...   8)
You may happen to have crystals with say a few MHz less frequency than 13.56 MHz.
 And for a start, just use a single 13.56 MHz and another single crystal only, say with having a lower frequency.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 22, 2018, 10:56:00 AM
sorry for the battery current. the battery current today I testing is 228 mAh. now I using 5 crystal, output current
is 20 mAh and brightness output is 10150 LUX.
Dear Erfandl,
Sorry for nagging you with these current values,  I thought if you report results, then the data should be written correctly
what your meters really show, this is all, no offense intended. 

Thanks for these new current values.  Would like to ask that the 20 mA current you mention now is taken from
your booster converter, right? 

Was the converter output voltage set to 24 V ?
 And please do not use mAh for current it should be mA only.   mAh is for good for battery capacity.   

Thanks for all your kind efforts.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 22, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
Dear Erfandl,
Sorry for nagging you with these current values,  I thought if you report results, then the data should be written correctly
what your meters really show, this is all, no offense intended. 

Thanks for these new current values.  Would like to ask that the 20 mA current you mention now is taken fromyour booster converter, right? 
Was the converter output voltage set to 24 V ?
 And please do not use mAh for current it should be mA only.   mAh is for good for battery capacity.   

Thanks for all your kind efforts.
Gyula
Yes. The current output from boost converter is 20 mA and boost converter output voltage is 24 volt.
Your welcome Gyula :X
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 22, 2018, 11:06:10 AM
Okay Erfandl, thanks. 

Notice:  if the current taken from the 3.7 V battery is 228 mA, then power used is 843 mW.             

             Power taken from the converter output is 24 V x 20 mA= 480 mW  Compare the two...
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 22, 2018, 12:45:15 PM
Yes, this would be a good next step in exploring this.  I think the oscillator will become and function
as an RF mixer too. 
Provided the second crystal is willing to oscillate too, in parallel with the 13.56 MHz,   that is...   8)
You may happen to have crystals with say a few MHz less frequency than 13.56 MHz.
 And for a start, just use a single 13.56 MHz and another single crystal only, say with having a lower frequency.
Gyula


TK,  Gyula,

nice experiment, and i agree with Gyula that the oscillator will become a mixer too.

Using the normal 13.56Mhz crystal in screenshot 1 
Adding a 12Mhz crystal parallel to the first one, see screenshot 2.

I had to increase the input current to around 50mA before the 2th crystal would start.
Will try some other frequencies later tonight.


These extra peaks goes for all the harmonics too, so the whole spectrum becomes a littered with spikes
Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 22, 2018, 08:09:43 PM
I ran my one wire energy transmission experiment again using just a 13.6MHz sine wave signal from a function generator and it worked.  The results were not as good as using the crystal oscillator however. 

Gyula-- I mentioned your name in the video and I apologize if I mispronounced it.  I did some research on mutual inductance and you are right about how it relates to what I am doing in these multiple coil experiments. 

erfandl---I tried the multiple crystal experiment on my oscillator circuit briefly.  I did not see any significant difference visually but perhaps there was a difference in the power draw.  It was just a quick test and I didn't do any measuring.

TK --- Your idea about mixing the frequencies was interesting.  I'm wondering if I can inject a signal into my 13.56MHz crystal oscillator output using my function generator.  If we got lucky there might be a compounding wave happen like a freak wave in the ocean.  Just guessing.

Here is the video of my 'hallway' one wire experiment using a function generator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYodoX-lf7w

---Lidmotor

PS--Here is how a freak wave forms in the ocean.  Maybe we can do this electronically ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 22, 2018, 09:25:56 PM

Lidmotor, 

nice idea to inject an extra signal with the FG into the Xtal oscillator.
This speeds up the process of trying multiple different crystals.

Using a 100nF ceramic cap to inject the FG signal into the base of the resistor.
4Vpp sine wave ranging from 350Khz to 26Mhz creates many different patterns of signals on the SA.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkkT2I_wvAc

Itsu


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 22, 2018, 09:48:21 PM
itsu---  Thanks for trying that experiment of injecting a separate signal.  I was hoping for a massive tall spike to show up when a second wave showed up at just the right frequency. It doesn't look like that happens.  Perhaps if there were multiple frequencies but that is hard to figure out where to even start with that experiment. 
  Thanks again for the effort.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 22, 2018, 10:02:07 PM

Lidmotor, 

i see what you mean, but there are so many tests done in the past and now involving 2 signals being mixed
that if there is a special combination that produces something like an electronic freak wave it would have
been found by now, i think.

But you never know so there are still some parameters to meet i think like should those 2 (or more) signals
need to have the exact same amplitude (which is hard to do with a FG and X-tal osc.) and should the difference
in frequency be a few Hertz or kiloHertz etc.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 22, 2018, 11:44:33 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, so it seems your SA nicely shows the multiple output frequencies of an RF mixer and we can be sure the displayed amplitudes at their specific frequencies are present at the collector of the transistor, it is reality.

Regarding your 12 MHz crystal needed a higher input current: although there is the so called 'activity' (willingness to oscillate) behaviour for crystals in general (they are all 'different'), have you tried this: just start the same oscillator with a single 12 MHz crystal and try to run it with say 15-20 mA input current only to see how it behaves. If it is willing to oscillate 'normally', then plug in a single 13,56 MHz crystal in parallel with it and see it oscillate or not etc. Of course it is possible you find the need for increasing input current again to have both crystals work, you will see. Try a 2nd or 3rd 13.56 MHz xtal (one by one) instead of the first one if you find the need for increasing input current to have both crystals work.
And if you happen to have other crystals of yet differing frequencies, do test them when you have time.

We may deduce from your tests now why the SA is not able to display the multiple output frequencies of the 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 pieces of the 13.56 MHz crystals in parallel: the outputs of the frequency components due to the mixing process simply coincide. This means that say the sum of two 13.56 MHz xtals is simply almost equal to the 2nd harmonic, 27.12xx MHz, the small difference may range from some 10 Hz to some 100 Hz (up to some kHz at the higher harmonics) only, so that the SA resolution is simply not fine enough. I think it is the RBW (Resolution Band Width) setting on the SA which can only be reduced to a given smallest setting. depending on sweep time (SWT) or frequency span etc.  The RWB was set to 30 kHz on your SA when you zoomed in on the 13.56 MHz frequency and probably a 10 Hz or less RBW would be needed to see the different frequency components which differ from each other by say 34 Hz. Of course this 10 Hz RBW or less may be a strict requirement for an SA, though not impossible.   

Thanks, 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 23, 2018, 12:21:29 AM
Hi Lidmotor,

Yes, when energy is taken from a resonant LC circuit (i.e. from the 'L3' coil) by coupling to it another resonant LC tuned to the same frequency (or to a frequency close to it within the bandwidths involved), then the one wire energy transfer suffers: you 'tap' its source.

You may find this link interesting:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_dip_oscillator  and this link on how to use it: https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/test-methods/grid-gate-dip-oscillator-meter/how-to-use-gdo.php

If I may suggest another link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_wavemeter  and this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOnlyU2Qlwg

Regarding your freak wave example, I will return to it later tomorrow or so.

Thank you for mentioning my name in the video. To pronounce it 'correctly',  say the word  'due'  for the 'Gyu'  (the 1st) syllable and add to it the 'la' syllable (which sounded ok).

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on July 23, 2018, 06:50:20 AM
THE ELECTRONIC FREAK WAVE PHENOMENA HAPPENS IN THE KAPADNAZE CIRCUIT. BUT HE USES
SWR TO GENERATE THIS.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on July 23, 2018, 06:52:01 AM
I SEE THIS HAPPENING ALMOST EVERY DAY ON THE BEACH ON PRASLIN SEYCHELLES.
FREAK WAVE THAT IS.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 23, 2018, 07:39:54 AM
Check this out:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/gan-class-ef_odd-hf-transmitter-logic-gate-drive-14w-out-90-efficiency/msg1693205/#msg1693205

Quote
I ran the drain supply all the way up to 15V, with 0.96A DC input current, yielding 14W RF output.  Not bad for active devices barely visible to the naked eye, and no heat sink!  (EPC says R(ja) ~ 100C/W.)  I wish I had better efficiency numbers, but I was measuring rms load voltage with my Rigol scope, which isn't terribly accurate:  I was calculating drain efficiency ~ 96% or even higher, awesome... until I started getting some "over unity" efficiencies at low power (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/facepalm.gif)  Oops.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: centraflow on July 23, 2018, 05:02:18 PM
itsu---  Thanks for trying that experiment of injecting a separate signal.  I was hoping for a massive tall spike to show up when a second wave showed up at just the right frequency. It doesn't look like that happens.  Perhaps if there were multiple frequencies but that is hard to figure out where to even start with that experiment. 
  Thanks again for the effort.

---Lidmotor


Hi All


To get your nice high spike you need the same frequency from two sources combined in free space with the same phase, polarisation and amplitude; Some here know I have been working on this.


Regards


Mike
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 23, 2018, 05:37:30 PM
Hi all. today I build another circuit and paralleling two circuit together. the light output is now 2x (super high brightness) and current is about 50mA @24 volt. when I receiving parts as soon as I build 4 circuit and test. also there is no need to using ferrite rod



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 23, 2018, 06:00:57 PM
Hi all try sticking your crystal in this circuit if you want harmonics!

http://www.learningelectronics.net/circuits/harmonic-generator-with-single-opamp_03.html
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 23, 2018, 07:07:43 PM
erfandl----What you just did is exactly what crossed my mind about paralleling two complete crystal oscillator circuits.  I didn't think that it would do much---and you proved me wrong!  Great results!  I have all the parts to do this and will replicate your experiment as soon as I can.  Your lumen per watt situation is starting to look really good.  Looking at this on a scope and spectrum analyzer should be interesting. Perhaps the big freak wave I am looking for happens with this simple two circuit setup.  The two circuits are probably not exactly identical. Perhaps the two waves generated might be just enough off to generate the big boy I'm after.  I don't think that this will look pretty on the scope but the LEDs don't care.  The bad boy waves that I have seen at sea are ugly looking things but very powerful.

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 23, 2018, 07:19:43 PM
erfandl----What you just did is exactly what crossed my mind about paralleling two complete crystal oscillator circuits.  I didn't think that it would do much---and you proved me wrong!  Great results!  I have all the parts to do this and will replicate your experiment as soon as I can.  Your lumen per watt situation is starting to look really good.  Looking at this on a scope and spectrum analyzer should be interesting. Perhaps the big freak wave I am looking for happens with this simple two circuit setup.  The two circuits are probably not exactly identical. Perhaps the two waves generated might be just enough off to generate the big boy I'm after.  I don't think that this will look pretty on the scope but the LEDs don't care.  The bad boy waves that I have seen at sea are ugly looking things but very powerful.

--Lidmotor
Hi lidmotor. Thanks for reply. I think now we can switching to 2n2222 or mpsa06 transistor with this method. Because 2n2222 at 12 volt the output like the bd243c transistor at 24 volt. I don't have an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer to looking the frequency :(

Sorry for bad English.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 23, 2018, 07:47:45 PM
erfandl---I am using an MPSA06 just fine on mine.  It gets warm at the higher voltages but I have not blown one yet.  A little Al tape "wing" heat sink is all I need.  At 50mA the little transistors can handle this situation. We can use the bigger transistors that we both have if we need to.
 Your English is OK.  No problem.

Gyula---Thanks for the links to the subject matter that we are discussing.  That was helpful.  Thanks also on how to pronounce your name ('due' -'la'). 

--Lidmotor
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 23, 2018, 10:31:11 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, so it seems your SA nicely shows the multiple output frequencies of an RF mixer and we can be sure the displayed amplitudes at their specific frequencies are present at the collector of the transistor, it is reality.

Regarding your 12 MHz crystal needed a higher input current: although there is the so called 'activity' (willingness to oscillate) behaviour for crystals in general (they are all 'different'), have you tried this: just start the same oscillator with a single 12 MHz crystal and try to run it with say 15-20 mA input current only to see how it behaves. If it is willing to oscillate 'normally', then plug in a single 13,56 MHz crystal in parallel with it and see it oscillate or not etc. Of course it is possible you find the need for increasing input current again to have both crystals work, you will see. Try a 2nd or 3rd 13.56 MHz xtal (one by one) instead of the first one if you find the need for increasing input current to have both crystals work.
And if you happen to have other crystals of yet differing frequencies, do test them when you have time.


We may deduce from your tests now why the SA is not able to display the multiple output frequencies of the 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 pieces of the 13.56 MHz crystals in parallel: the outputs of the frequency components due to the mixing process simply coincide. This means that say the sum of two 13.56 MHz xtals is simply almost equal to the 2nd harmonic, 27.12xx MHz, the small difference may range from some 10 Hz to some 100 Hz (up to some kHz at the higher harmonics) only, so that the SA resolution is simply not fine enough. I think it is the RBW (Resolution Band Width) setting on the SA which can only be reduced to a given smallest setting. depending on sweep time (SWT) or frequency span etc.  The RWB was set to 30 kHz on your SA when you zoomed in on the 13.56 MHz frequency and probably a 10 Hz or less RBW would be needed to see the different frequency components which differ from each other by say 34 Hz. Of course this 10 Hz RBW or less may be a strict requirement for an SA, though not impossible.   

Thanks, 

Gyula

Gyula,

i put the 100K trimmer pot all the way up (100K) and let the oscillator run using a single 13.56Mhz crystal.
It pulls about 14mA giving moderate light at the leds (output voltage about 32Vpp).

Adding a 12Mhz xtal does not do anything, only when pulling out the 13,56Mhz xtal, the oscillator starts
running on 12Mhz, input current increases somewhat (14.4mA) and the leds shine somewhat brighter (output voltage still around 32Vpp).

Adding again the 13.56Mhz xtal again does do nothing untill pulling out the 12Mhz xtal, then the osc. flips
over to 13.56Mhz, decrease the current to 14mA and lowering the leds light (output voltage stays the same).

Doing the same with a 10Mhz xtal shows the same but more extreme, adding the 10Mhz xtal does nothing untill
pulling out the 13.56Mhz xtal, than the leds are more brighter (more then the 12Mhz xtal), input current
goes to 16mA but output voltage stays the same.


To get the both xtals work (mixing), i have to increase the input current to between 50 and 70mA depending
on the xtals in use.

All kind of patterns emerge on both the SA and the scope when mixing is active  :)

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 23, 2018, 10:32:01 PM
Most of you are familiar with Dr Stiffler's methods. We imitate, "Do just like that" we get certain results. It bridges gaps previously
not obvious because of experience level. ln this post the video uses a different method in working with a roll of coax. 
Stepping back for a moment from single wire. Looking at coax with multiple frequency Will the faster wave arrive sooner?
The crystal has a constant frequency however the length of the coax has a set distance that gives a time constant.
We identify these constants and their artifacts gives us an advantage in using them effectively. The multiple frequency
waves could be untangled easier using a few basics for making sense of waveforms with it's reflected wave when
the nodes are fixed. The applications in alt energy are many. Only a few are applying this concept in various applications.
I see the potential with in this thread to advance understanding why concept like this are useful in open systems.

The concept of terminating a coax by adjusting the terminating resistance using a potentiometer. Keeping this simple
by using only a single frequency we can see the constant artifact on the scope and adjustment is made to restore
a distorted signal for a given impedance load. The concept of the cable length will have a fixed time constant.

So at a frequency of 13.6 Mhz, no coax, broadcast into an aluminum back plane we can appreciate that methods were shared.

Revisiting the time constant and potentiometer on a roll of wire with two conductors:  https://youtu.be/zrDxSM91Jcg

There are some simulations showing multiple frequencies. We can get a visual idea what they look like.
We can see the multiple signals have synchronous pattern, in one case the waves resembles something like a roller coaster.
page down look for subtitle play: 
Appendix A: What happens if the amplitudes are not equal?
Appendix B: What happens if the frequencies are not equal?

http://qr.ae/TUIFJy



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 24, 2018, 12:06:51 AM
Transmission line model demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 24, 2018, 02:48:38 AM
Regarding self resonant frequency and the 3 coil system earlier I was incorrect
I need to make a correction here.

Sorry that should be Spatial Self Resonance
please refer to video for correct method

https://youtu.be/6FOq7-WsL5c
https://youtu.be/l9q_r5_jEP4
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2018, 05:46:34 AM
Transmission line model demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s)


Great video T.K.  You always explain things so well and make them easy to understand.  I heard from Croclaw via p.m to email and thought I would stop over here to see how everyone is.  Good to see some of the old group is still around although I believe I read that Pese had passed away.  I saw Chet is still here and I also think I saw that M.H. is moderated....yet again, ha ha.  Good to know some things never change.  I am glad to see he is still around also.  I saw Lidmotor as well.  Excellent to see everyone.


Bill
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: aether22 on July 24, 2018, 07:10:30 AM
On the subject of old hands being back, I'm back for those who recall me...


So, I want to make an offer to everyone there who is or wants to be an active experimenter, who isn't impossibly closed minded...


I began studying this field in the early 90's, I tried looking for correlations in the claims of Free Energy and Antigravity, something that would make sense, but I found no correlations on a conventional level, but as I did this study I could not help but see a correlation I had actually been hostile to, the idea of an aether!  Alas, how do you know if there is an aether or how to effect it?
It took me 17 years before I figured out how to do that when I made a coil that issued a tangible energy, but once I could feel the energy I was away!


I found that MOST people could feel the energy from such a coil, but the energy could not be described by convention.


Anyway, it has been going on another 7 years of studying the aether, and I have learnt a LOT.
Because unpowered circuits are easier and cheaper and safer and the energy feels nicer, I have really not done experiments that con demo Free Energy.


And if I achieved Free Energy, I would not share it here!  It simply is not a lively enough forum anymore, and I would want to push it out fast to stop suppression.


But I am willing to show you guys the fruits of 24 years of travelling the road less traveled...
About 90% of people overall (age and profession seem to make some difference) can feel this energy.


I now have this technology to the point where it is easy to implement techniques I have discovered, and indeed you can spend about 5 minutes or less making some of this stuff, it does not take a big investment in time to see if you are sensitive, and you can use the techniques if you are sensitive or not, and aetheric principles do not need to interfere with the conventional, even if I was wrong or spouting nonsense, many/most of them are irrelevant at a conventional level.


So there is my offer, it would be great if they helps people experiment more successfully.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on July 24, 2018, 08:39:39 AM
Hi all try sticking your crystal in this circuit if you want harmonics!

http://www.learningelectronics.net/circuits/harmonic-generator-with-single-opamp_03.html
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 24, 2018, 10:12:01 AM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, I understand, the higher current is needed for the two paralleled crystals of differing frequencies.

Thanks for your kind efforts!

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 24, 2018, 07:25:08 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, I understand, the higher current is needed for the two paralleled crystals of differing frequencies.

Thanks for your kind efforts!

Gyula
Hi I'm having trouble duplicating some of the claims oublished on this tread I first tried the 12mhz with the 15.6mhz
I plugged a 12mhz into an already running 15.6 it produced a thick ribbon sine wave, untill I removed power and switched back
on it then produced 12mhz  ;D

I then tried 3 of 15.6mhz devices all i got was 14.49mhz  ;D. any idea what i'm doing or not doing wrong ?

Re  the harmonic thing how does that work ?  if i supper impose wave forms on top of each other you will just get a mark space
ratio or a square wave of some type or one of the rails, any comments please ?

AG
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 25, 2018, 12:21:57 AM
Hi AG,

You may also need to vary the DC bias current for your transistor like Itsu did to have both crystals operate simultaneously.
And try to use other transistor types too, preferably with higher than 100 hFE. Also, try to vary the supply voltage. These are some 'rules'... you may know some other ones too.  As I wrote earlier: each oscillator has a 'soul'.   ;D

Superimposing waves, I can tell generally only: you can get twice the amplitude of two waves identical in amplitude, wavelength and phase.   

Try to play with these simulators below.  In the first one the wavelength of the 2nd wave is variable and see the sum of the red and blue waves:   http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/beats.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/beats.html)   
When you set 24 Hz for the blue wave, then it will be identical in phase and frequency to the red wave, so their sum becomes exactly twice all the way and harmonic-free, otherwise the nice sine wave gets distorted as you vary the blue wave frequency.
You can pause the process any time.
Here are some other simulations:
http://ophysics.com/w2.html (http://ophysics.com/w2.html)          wave pulse interference and superposition
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference.html)         constructive and destructive interference
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference_of_pulses.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference_of_pulses.html)       constructive and destructive pulse interference
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/transverse_standing_wave.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/transverse_standing_wave.html)       one wave goes to right the other to left, harmonics of the waves up to 6

I have not found an online wave simulator which would mimic the freak waves  i.e. letting vary the amplitude and the wavelength of 2 waves separately and let them collide. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: iQuest on July 25, 2018, 04:58:20 AM
Mikrovolt: Thanks for the links, this is how I would summarize SRF and srf.  When a test connection is made to both ends of a coil the Self Resonant Frequency (SRF)
can be found.  But when a test connection is made to only one end of a coil, like Dr. Stiffler demonstrates in the videos you posted, the so called Spatial Resonant
Frequency (srf) can be found.  Not sure why Dr. Stiffler does not mention a standing wave, as the FG frequency is swept a quarter standing wave resonance would be
found with the setup that he demonstrates for the open end coils in these videos.  Thus I conclude, srf = quarter standing wave resonance, see additional info below.

Gyula: Appreciate the technical support info you continue to post and thanks for the links to the wave simulators. Regarding your comment "Superimposing waves, I
can tell generally only: you can get twice the amplitude of two waves identical in amplitude, wavelength and phase.".  I'm sure you know but would just like
to add that a wave reflected from the open end of a transmission line like an L3 coil (or Tesla coil) would meet this criteria.  In this application, the ideal would be
to tune to quarter-wave resonance to achieve maximum voltage magnification at the open end by way of a standing wave (quarter-wave resonator).
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 25, 2018, 02:36:22 PM
Hi AG,

You may also need to vary the DC bias current for your transistor like Itsu did to have both crystals operate simultaneously.
And try to use other transistor types too, preferably with higher than 100 hFE. Also, try to vary the supply voltage. These are some 'rules'... you may know some other ones too.  As I wrote earlier: each oscillator has a 'soul'.   ;D

Superimposing waves, I can tell generally only: you can get twice the amplitude of two waves identical in amplitude, wavelength and phase.   

Try to play with these simulators below.  In the first one the wavelength of the 2nd wave is variable and see the sum of the red and blue waves:   http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/beats.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/beats.html)   
When you set 24 Hz for the blue wave, then it will be identical in phase and frequency to the red wave, so their sum becomes exactly twice all the way and harmonic-free, otherwise the nice sine wave gets distorted as you vary the blue wave frequency.
You can pause the process any time.
Here are some other simulations:
http://ophysics.com/w2.html (http://ophysics.com/w2.html)          wave pulse interference and superposition
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference.html)         constructive and destructive interference
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference_of_pulses.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/interference_of_pulses.html)       constructive and destructive pulse interference
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/transverse_standing_wave.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/transverse_standing_wave.html)       one wave goes to right the other to left, harmonics of the waves up to 6

I have not found an online wave simulator which would mimic the freak waves  i.e. letting vary the amplitude and the wavelength of 2 waves separately and let them collide. 

Gyula
Gyula; Thanks for info i will try that out later on when i can dig out a decent transistor,  ;D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 25, 2018, 03:23:49 PM
Frankly I'm surprised that those of you using breadboards are getting consistent results. At the operating frequencies, solderless breadboards can cause problems due to diode-junction joints, interpin capacitances, loose connections and etc.

You might try one or another construction method like "dead bug" or "manhattan" styles.
Here's mine, built on a ground-plane slab of PCB material, and using a 74AC14 for output buffering:
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 25, 2018, 07:10:30 PM
TK---Yes. It is amazing that those of us using breadboard setups for these RF circuits are getting such good results---unless the breadboard is actually part of the reason.  I did solder up an identical crystal oscillator circuit on a board and got the same results.  I was careful to keep the components in the same basic locations though.  Here is a 20 min. video I watched yesterday on the math involved with these tank circuits and all the sticky things you run into. This is all old news to many like you.  It is a lot come complicated than I thought.  Using a breadboard setup really stirs things up when one adds in the factors you mentioned.  Sometimes I solder up a quick 'dead bug' type setup on piece of cardboard to get away from it.  Just poke holes in the thin cardboard to hold the components and solder away.  Here is the 'back to school' video that helped me and might help others:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi24SpKYYoQ&feature=youtu.be

Gyula---I have really enjoyed the links you have posted.  Playing around with the wave forms on the simulators was fun but reminded me of sea conditions that make me seasick.  When the waves get together and 'stand up' like that my boat goes crazy and the motion is horrible.

erfandl---I built up your two paralleled crystal oscillators yesterday but did not get your results.  Both ran fine together or separately but the light output when joined was not double even though the amp draw went up.  I think that the waves are not joining up right to produce the double amplitude.  I will work on it some more today.

Cheers,
            Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 25, 2018, 09:05:13 PM
Hi iQuest,

Thanks for the kind words. I forgot to include this link yesterday on wave reflection simulation,  see here:
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/reflections.html (http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/HTML5/reflections.html) 
If we choose the "Right end is free" choice at the bottom right instead of the default "Right end is fixed", then we can see the red wave reflects back at the end of the "line",  its positive 20 unit amplitude increases to positive 40 units, then it starts traveling backwards from the open end with the same 20 unit positive amplitude as the blue wave shows. You can pause simulation at time t=0.525 second when the double amplitude is shown developed.  This happens differently when the "Right end is fixed" choice is simulated: no double amplitude at the reflection moment and the returning blue wave amplitude is a negative 20 units (the incoming wave reflected as the inverse of it).

In case of the unloaded L3 coil, or when the "line"  is quarter wave long and unterminated (i.e. we have the "Right end is free" case),  the 'waves' come continuously from a generator (or from a crystal oscillator) and a standing wave can develop at the coil end with a high amplitude. That is what the Doc shows in the two videos as seeking for the maximum RF amplitude around the floating coil end and the frequency belonging to that max amplitude is the coil's quarter wave resonant frequency or as the Doc put it: the Spatial Resonant frequency.
The wave reflection simulation shows 'only' a doubled amplitude when it reflects back at the free end of the 'line' but in case of a coil when it is fed continuously with input energy at the quarter wave resonant frequency (not the case for a quasi arbitrary single wave traveling in the simulation), the resonance not only doubles but enhances the amplitude manifold at the open end (voltage amplification).

We can find the quarter wave resonance in a Tesla coil secondary of course, it makes no difference if the coil is fed by a single wire from a generator or from a few turn coupling coil (that Tesla called as the primary coil).  Recall the Slayer exciter too, the oscillator automatically oscillates at the quarter wave frequency of the coil where the resonant impedance is the highest.
Here is a good read on this topic: http://www.teslaradio.com/pages/tesla_coils.htm (http://www.teslaradio.com/pages/tesla_coils.htm) 

Thanks and keep the comments coming  :)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 25, 2018, 11:27:43 PM
   Guys and Gals:
   I changed the C1815 transistor on my crystal oscillator to a 400v D1300K7-1. I also raised the voltage to the max on my boost converter, 50v. And I was able to get 112v output from my crystal oscillator.
But, this higher voltage transistor is good to 4.000Mhz, only. So, I have to work with a 3.500MHz to 4000MHz crystals that I have on hand. However, for one reason or another the actual brightness of the 10 leds does not change all that much. The leds are placed capacitively. Perhaps the led are the limitation or bottle neck, in this case.
   I still notice that a direct connection to the leds through the AV plug from the L3 coil, provides for a higher output at the bulbs, instead of the capacitive led bulb placement. But, at least now there is NO overheating of the transistor, at all. However, the actual wireless effect is not very impressive, although much better than what I could do before. Still working on all this...

    I will look for the right 120v type led bulb with the aluminum back plate. But, in any case the led bulb is brighter now on 50v than on 12v, but not by that much. Perhaps the 100kohm resistor on the base circuit is not needed now, and a lower value resistor can be used, instead.
   I also added some more turns to my L3 coil, so it's now about 3cm long. But, I may have to add some more turns now, using the 3.5MHz crystal, instead of the 13.5MHz one, to get a better sync from the L3, to the lower value crystal.   I wish that I knew the exact size of mag wire needed to run the L3 at 13.5MHz, or 4.000MHz, as my SG only has a 3v output, and 2MHz limit. So, I can't use it to tune the L3 with. Therefore, I'm still looking for a horse that I can ride...  Along with the right bulb. 
   Connecting the clip lead from the leds back to the negative or positive rail on the battery does improve the bulb brightness, over just the clip lead by itself.  But, the clip lead is still needed, as compared to just a short piece of wire back to the battery.
I believe that the clip lead may also be working as a type of antenna, of sorts. 
   I also tried two crystals at the same time, but didn't have much luck with that idea, so far.
                                   Keeping in touch,                                                              NickZ
   
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 26, 2018, 01:03:22 AM
Nick,

Nice progress!  Would like to ask you did try the 13.5MHz crystal with this D13007K transistor but it simply did not oscillate?  Or you thought the transistor simply is not suitable due to its 4 MHz frequency limit and you did not test it?

You surely have to increase the L3 coil size for the 3.5 MHz crystal. I suggest to follow what Lidmotor built as a variable coil with a wiper wire sliding on the surface of the coil. Wind a coil at least on a 4 cm OD bobbin with at least a 6 - 7 cm long winding. With the wiper this can be tuned by watching the LED brightness.
When this coil is in resonance, the cliplead from the diode may be removed and the diodes common point may be connected to battery negative or positive, I mean to include the LED board by capacitive coupling into the L3 circuit and tune it by the wiper too.

If you or someone near you has an old, unused AM pocket radio then its ferrite antenna could be taken out and you could use the ferrite rod to tune this L3 coil you have for the 13.5 MHz and lower the coil resonant frequency toward 3.5 MHz. I mean such ferrite rod: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7QaIR.jpg 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 26, 2018, 04:57:49 AM
   Gyula:   I would call the radio "ferrite rod", a ferrite bar instead. And, yes I have one. It's about 3 inches long, and 1/2 inch wide So I would need to wind a new L3 on a former that is about 3/4 inch OD. So that the ferrite bar will just fit inside the former tube snuggly.
   The led/AV plug can also be used to find the best resonant point on the L3, where it lights the brightest. It works similar to the wipper, to see where the sweet spot is on the coil. Then any extra winds can be removed, as needed.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2018, 07:25:26 AM
The ferrite rod (or bar, whatever) works by increasing the inductance of the coil as the rod is inserted more and more deeply. Unfortunately the rod itself will introduce some small losses (decreasing the Q of the system) so isn't the desired way of tuning, if energy efficiency is ultra-important. Better is to adjust turns in the air-core coil. By using the "wiper" method one can determine the number of turns closely, and then another coil can be wound with that many turns but no taps or stripes or overlaps, etc that would reduce Q.

So you have an air-core coil, wound very evenly and spaced evenly. This will have the least inductance and highest resonant frequency, all else being held equal. So inserting the ferrite will progressively increase inductance and therefore lower the resonant frequency. One could wind a coil of too high frequency, tune by inserting ferrite,  lowering frequency until the desired resonant frequency is attained, then carefully remove and measure the ferrite-containing coil's inductance, then wind another pure air core coil to that inductance value.

There are other things that can increase the Q of these systems.     8)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 26, 2018, 08:56:54 AM
 erfandl--- I worked on the two paralleled crystal oscillator setup again today.  My results were disappointing. Not enough light increase for the additional power required.   I probably will not spend any more time on it.   :-\

---- Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 26, 2018, 09:24:32 AM
erfandl--- I worked on the two paralleled crystal oscillator setup again today.  My results were disappointing. Not enough light increase for the additional power required.   I probably will not spend any more time on it.   :-\

---- Lidmotor
Hi lidmotor. thanks for reply. do you using MPSA06 or BD243C transistor ? yesterday I test with 2n2222 and MPSA18 but the result is not like BD243C. I'm not using ferrite rod
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 26, 2018, 02:59:58 PM
Nick,

Nice progress!  Would like to ask you did try the 13.5MHz crystal with this D13007K transistor but it simply did not oscillate?  Or you thought the transistor simply is not suitable due to its 4 MHz frequency limit and you did not test it?

You surely have to increase the L3 coil size for the 3.5 MHz crystal. I suggest to follow what Lidmotor built as a variable coil with a wiper wire sliding on the surface of the coil. Wind a coil at least on a 4 cm OD bobbin with at least a 6 - 7 cm long winding. With the wiper this can be tuned by watching the LED brightness.
When this coil is in resonance, the cliplead from the diode may be removed and the diodes common point may be connected to battery negative or positive, I mean to include the LED board by capacitive coupling into the L3 circuit and tune it by the wiper too.

If you or someone near you has an old, unused AM pocket radio then its ferrite antenna could be taken out and you could use the ferrite rod to tune this L3 coil you have for the 13.5 MHz and lower the coil resonant frequency toward 3.5 MHz. I mean such ferrite rod: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7QaIR.jpg (https://i.stack.imgur.com/7QaIR.jpg) 

Gyula

  The oscillator will only start when using the 3.5MHz and the 7.2MHz crystals. But the 7.2MHz runs at a much lower amplitude, like 12v at the collector/emitter.   I will add more turns to my L3 today, and see if I can get the 13.5MHz crystal to start up. And I need to find a power transistor that can run at least to 13.5MHz also.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: AlienGrey on July 27, 2018, 12:07:47 AM
  The oscillator will only start when using the 3.5MHz and the 7.2MHz crystals. But the 7.2MHz runs at a much lower amplitude, like 12v at the collector/emitter.   I will add more turns to my L3 today, and see if I can get the 13.5MHz crystal to start up. And I need to find a power transistor that can run at least to 13.5MHz also.
I had a problem like that it was the low frequency band width of the transistor.

try a BC337 the one i tried had an HFE of 250 I also found the higher the gain the more the current draw,
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 27, 2018, 02:45:14 AM
erfandl---- I am using the BD243C transistors on my setup.  I'm also using two small breadboards instead of just one like what you showed.  Perhaps that is the problem. 

-----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 27, 2018, 06:01:42 AM
Doc just posted a new video showing an easy to replicate experiment if you have a function generator.  The experiment raises the curious question-- is the current really flowing around the ring as he states?  How can that be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcT_D7yf6OY

----Lidmotor


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 27, 2018, 09:34:01 AM
erfandl---- I am using the BD243C transistors on my setup.  I'm also using two small breadboards instead of just one like what you showed.  Perhaps that is the problem. 

-----Lidmotor
Lidmotor, to getting best result please pass boost converter output wires from below of the L3 coil and tuning the coil with boost converter output wires by sliding it on L3 coil. dont use ferrite rod. like below picture




Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: kEhYo77 on July 27, 2018, 06:47:09 PM
Hi.


In this last Dr Stiffler's clip everything looks simple to me at least.
Function generator drives L3 at resonance, hence low power requirements to keep the thing going.
The open end of L3 acts like an antena and sends EM waves down the clip lead.
This induces current in the diode loop like in an air core transformer, but only in one direction via diodes.
Induction in other direction charges P-N junction capacitance of every single diode.


I get the impression, that we need to start going up in frequency, until our electricity is pure frequency with no time for current to flow.
Cold Electricity...


kEhYo
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 27, 2018, 08:38:11 PM
The latest video on Stiffler current loop.
The loop iis circulating current.

Earlier I posted a current depleted spike.
If the spike expands to a sine wave it must have absorbed current ?

long ago we discussed the transistor was most likely point of entry so we can concider the
ring of pn junctions a circular array of entry point or maybe a place waves combine ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 27, 2018, 11:36:14 PM
I just replicated Dr. Stiffler's latest experiment with the 'Loop'.  It works.
  I know what people are going to say to explain what is happening but I recommend that those with the right equipment replicate this simple experiment and see it first hand.  It is pretty interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdWBj8Lyb1g

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 28, 2018, 01:50:45 AM
Hi Lidmotor,

I think if you use the same air core coil in a Slayer exciter as the oscillator coil you could also make this interesting setup work, that would be your function generator. Just make a 4-10 turn winding to one of the ends of that coil, that would be the coupling coil connected into the collector of the oscillator transistor. The free top end of the air core coil would have the cliplead. The frequency would remain near to 11 MHz: the oscillator would operate anyway at the air core coil's quarter wave resonance automatically. This way the DC input power could be accessed too.

It is interesting you think the 1N4148 diodes work as switches. Well, you said it is a giant AV plug and I agree with this latter, and the capacitively coupled current in the diodes loop can only go in one direction indeed. It is okay that the capacitive coupling is very low, must have a low value, even 1-2 pF or maybe less from the cliplead wire but the RF nearfield is surely so high (standing wave at the open end of the coil and alongside the cliplead) that all the diodes are able to conduct in one direction.  Notice the diodes forward voltages accumulate: 7 times 0.65V + 6 times the LEDs forward voltages, conduction in the loop can only result when the coupled RF voltage amplitudes are higher than the sum of these. 

The direction of the current is known: the positive input of the LED board should receive a positive voltage with respect to its negative input so it is the cathode of an 1N4148 (let's label it as the 1st diode) which should be connected to the positive input of the LEDs, ok? And so on: the 2nd diode's cathode drives the anode of the 1st diode.
In your video the positive input to the LED board must be at the bottom right where the cathode of the diode there is connected to the board, that is what I label as the 1st diode.
 In conventional sense the current flows clockwise in your loop: the 1st diode's cathode point is the DC positive the loop creates there and the anode of the last diode at the bottom left provides the DC negative point.  I consider the diode loop as mainly a DC generator driving the series LEDs, the loop receives energy via capacitive coupling. Roughly at least 17-18V DC is to be generated to get that brightness for 6 white LEDs I suppose, try to measure it across the LEDs input, filter it with some uF electrolytic cap across the positive and negative.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 28, 2018, 04:04:29 AM
   Lidmotor:   Yes, it works, but, is it really any better or more efficient than just connecting the clip lead to the diode loop?

   WE need to see if this is actually any better than normal form of wiring up some LEDs. Or even compared to what a Slayer Exciter can do. As the Doc has not shown the difference between this type of diode loop set up, and a normal one, as far an efficiency, or bulb brightness.  Nor has he shown any OU. So, are we just able to light the LED bulbs by saving a few mAs??? Or just where are we going with all of this?
   It would be good if Itsu or any of us could do some efficiency numbers, as he (or anyone else) that may have all the right gear to test with. Before we spend another month or so, trying to save a few mAs.
   We already know that the oscillator frequency has to be the same as the L3 coil, to obtain any noticeable gain.
 I personally have not seen this loop idea produce more light at the bulbs, than just connecting up the leds to a 4v battery, or to the  120v grid, as yet. But, I'm hoping that the Doc will finally come through with a more practical application. One that does not require an expensive SG to light the bulbs. Or only works with LEDs that have an aluminum back plate.
 
   BTW: I just found an one watt led bulb, with the metal backing, as well as a 300v MPSA42 in my electronics junk pile.
So, I'm working on setting that up now.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 28, 2018, 06:05:02 AM
Lidmotor, Very good, that is a successful replication. Your new function generator works like a champ.
The output voltage and frequency which design elements contribute to the resonance will encourage more replications.
The loop's usefulness in coming demo showing charging large capacitor may find economical and practical uses.

I use the small USB plug and power bank often always looking for more portability in this battery era also job requirements.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 28, 2018, 07:42:44 AM
Thanks all for the feedback on the latest Stiffler Loop experiment.

Gyula---  I will try this on a Slayer Exciter setup and see what happens.  Dr. Stiffler has a theory about what is happening here and hopefully he will explain more in his next videos.  The current does flow around the loop but it not a 'closed loop' like I used to think.  The last description he gave me was sort of a confusing word puzzle picture.  Basically energy does enter the loop but in a strange way.

Nick---I always wanted a 'self-running' device that pulled free energy from somewhere.  So far my work with Dr. Stiffler devices have not given me that result.  So why waste the time?  Why not just connect an LED to a battery and be done with it?  To me it is all about efficiency --and learning something new.  Perhaps we will learn something on these projects that leads to a more efficient light or motor. 

Mikrovolt----  You have been working on Dr. Stiffler stuff a long time and any info is valuable.  The next phase of Doc's Loop experiment will be charging a cap.  I did something similar years ago using a compound triangle array on exciter setups.  It worked fine.  Once I forgot to short out the cap after doing an experiment. The cap quietly charged up laying on the bench while I did something else.  I blew out a bunch of LEDs when I reconnected it later.

erfandl---  I didn't get a chance to work any more on the two crystal oscillator setup.  Perhaps tomorrow.

----Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 28, 2018, 09:37:09 AM
Here is my dual SEC Exciter Loop video. the output is very interesting !

https://youtu.be/F3bjYHG1jfg (https://youtu.be/F3bjYHG1jfg)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 28, 2018, 03:53:23 PM
   Lidmotor:   As you have an original Dr. Stiffler L3 coil, can you PLEASE count the number of turns it has on it. As I'd like to make a new L3, coil and don't want to just guess at the frequency response, as I don't have an SG that will work for that. 
   I don't want to be a nag, but I've asked you a couple of time for this info, perhaps you didn't see my previous questions.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: jhewitt03041976@gmail.com on July 28, 2018, 04:04:09 PM
   Lidmotor:   As you have an original Dr. Stiffler L3 coil, can you PLEASE count the number of turns it has on it. As I'd like to make a new L3, coil and don't want to just guess at the frequency response, as I don't have an SG that will work for that. 
   I don't want to be a nag, but I've asked you a couple of time for this info, perhaps you didn't see my previous questions.

While you're providing him with the number of turns, add the guage of wire and diameter of the object used as for the winding, it's all very pertinent
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 28, 2018, 07:41:20 PM
All--Doc posted a new video where he is charging up a cap now with his 'Ring'.  If you replicate this be careful that you short out ( or remove ) the cap when you are done playing around.  I had a bad experience years ago when a HV cap charged up silently on one of these AV plugs.  Doc's new 'Ring' is very potent.  I tried mine on my crystal oscillator last night and it worked great.  It should work on a Slayer Exciter also.  Doc made a comment on my video that explained a lot.  It seems that the 'Ring' is driven by voltage and a tiny amount of current.  He says that the 'Ring' itself generates current. 
  Here is Doc's latest video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgKetMbQMGY&t=101s

Gyula---Doc made a pretty good comment on my last video explaining a lot.  It is worth taking a look.  Just scroll down the comments until you find it.

NickZ---My stock SEC L3 coil is at another location.  I will be there tomorrow and look at it.  There was a discussion earlier about this and I explained what I was using but I understand why you want the specs on the stock coil.  Someone earlier found the specs and posted it here as I recall.  I don't remember what post that was.

erfandl--I did a similar experiment last night using my single crystal oscillator and the 'Ring'.  Try putting more LEDs on the Ring or move to the cap experiment.  Be careful if you are using an HV cap. It will bite you if care is not taken.

--Lidmotor

 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 28, 2018, 07:56:39 PM
All--Doc posted a new video where he is charging up a cap now with his 'Ring'.  If you replicate this be careful that you short out ( or remove ) the cap when you are done playing around.  I had a bad experience years ago when a HV cap charged up silently on one of these AV plugs.  Doc's new 'Ring' is very potent.  I tried mine on my crystal oscillator last night and it worked great.  It should work on a Slayer Exciter also.  Doc made a comment on my video that explained a lot.  It seems that the 'Ring' is driven by voltage and a tiny amount of current.  He say that the 'Ring' itself generates current. 
  Here is Doc's latest video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgKetMbQMGY&t=101s

NickZ---My stock SEC L3 coil is at another location.  I will be there tomorrow and look at it.  There was a discussion earlier about this and I explained what I was using but I understand why you want the specs on the stock coil.  Someone earlier found the specs and posted it here as I recall.  I don't remember what post that was.

erfandl--I did a similar experiment last night using my single crystal oscillator and the 'Ring'.  Try putting more LEDs on the Ring or move to the cap experiment.  Be careful if you are using an HV cap. It will bite you if care is not taken.

--Lidmotor
Thanks lidmotor. Is it possible to looping the circuit and using the cap as circuit source? so we have infinite light
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 28, 2018, 08:05:40 PM
erfndl---Doc did a circuit years ago called the 'Near Infinity Light System' (NILS) that I worked on and tested.  He looped the output of a SEC-18 back to the source by tapping into an led array at a certain point and feeding it back into a cap at the 6v battery source.  It was not self running but the amp draw was very low.  He applied for a patent for it but ran out on money to complete the process.  Mikrovolt may have worked on that project also.

NickZ----I found some info on the stock SEC L3 coil.  It is 63 turns of 24ga magnet wire on about a 5/8" form.  Here are some pictures of it.

--Lidmotor

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 28, 2018, 09:26:56 PM
Hi Erfandl,

For a possible test on looping back, I suggest you the followings:
you would need to obtain a step down DC-DC converter which is able to receive DC voltage from the capacitor
(placed across the diode loop output) between say 25V and 100 or even 120 V and convert it to DC 12 or 24 V, etc.

Then this 12-24V output could feed your oscillator IF the diode loop could maintain a DC voltage level in the capacitor
higher than say 25V.  Understand?Conventional science says such looped back setup would never work but there is only one way to learn: by
testing it. Here is such converter, with adjustable output: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183258445232/ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/183258445232/)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 28, 2018, 09:37:47 PM
Hi Erfandl,

For a possible test on looping back, I suggest you the followings:
you would need to obtain a step down DC-DC converter which is able to receive DC voltage from the capacitor (placed across the diode loop output) between say 25V and 100 or even 120 V and convert it to DC 12 or 24 V, etc.

Then this 12-24V output could feed your oscillator IF the diode loop could maintain a DC voltage level in the capacitor higher than say 25V.  Understand?

Conventional science says such looped back setup would never work but there is only one way to learn: by testing it. Here is such converter, with adjustable output: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183258445232/

Gyula
Hi gyula. Thanks for reply. How many capacitor size ( uF )? I have 63 volt 10000 uF cap is it good for test?

Thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 28, 2018, 09:49:27 PM
Well, the Doc said in the video  he used a 450 uF, 200 V DC rated electrolytic. 

If you can assemble a 55 - 60 V Zener diode to limit the DC voltage across your 63V rated capacitor,
then it would be ok for a test.  The Zener would protect the cap from overcharging it beyond its rated voltage. 
Then you would need a DC-DC converter which can work up to the 55-60V DC input and step it down to your
oscillator needed voltage level.  Obviously, as you load the 1000 uF cap, the voltage across it will go down, you will see. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 28, 2018, 10:26:19 PM
....
Doc made a comment on my video that explained a lot.  It seems that the 'Ring' is driven by voltage and a tiny amount of current.  He says that the 'Ring' itself generates current. 
...
Gyula---Doc made a pretty good comment on my last video explaining a lot.  It is worth taking a look.  Just scroll down the comments until you find it.
....

Dear Lidmotor,
I went to your latest video about 2 hours ago but I did not see any comment from Dr Stiffler....Was his comment deleted??
Anyway thanks for the headsup.  I sent you a PM via this forum.
Thanks
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 28, 2018, 10:27:54 PM
Well, the Doc said in the video  he used a 450 uF, 200 V DC rated electrolytic. 

If you can assemble a 55 - 60 V Zener diode to limit the DC voltage across your 63V rated capacitor,
then it would be ok for a test.  The Zener would protect the cap from overcharging it beyond its rated voltage. 
Then you would need a DC-DC converter which can work up to the 55-60V DC input and step it down to your
oscillator needed voltage level.  Obviously, as you load the 1000 uF cap, the voltage across it will go down, you will see. 

Gyula
Thanks. and whats happening when I use supercapacitor 2.7 volt @ 500 farad? is it dangerous and make destroying the cap?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 28, 2018, 10:32:32 PM
I just replicated Dr. Stiffler's latest experiment with the 'Loop'.  It works.
  I know what people are going to say to explain what is happening but I recommend that those with the right equipment replicate this simple experiment and see it first hand.  It is pretty interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdWBj8Lyb1g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdWBj8Lyb1g)

--Lidmotor

I tried to replicate using 15 x 1N4148 (i believe Dr. Stiffler used 15 of them) diodes in a ring and 12 Leds
driven by my FG 20Vpp using one of my L3 coils, but there is no output to be seen.

Only when i go back to 2 leds there is some glow in them around 9.3MHz.

Not sure what is going wrong here.


Itsu


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 28, 2018, 10:45:31 PM
Thanks. and whats happening when I use supercapacitor 2.7 volt @ 500 farad? is it dangerous and make
destroying the cap? Thanks.
Well, I suggest testing it but keep a DC voltmeter across the supercap to see first how fast
the diode loop is able to charge it?  And when the 2.6 - 2.7 V DC level is reached then finish
charging unless you want to destroy it...

This suggestion is also valid for your 1000 uF, 63 V capacitor: no need for the Zener diode
protection directly across the capacitor if you always keep a DC voltmeter across it and you
continuously watch the voltage while testing.
If you have 5 pieces of 12 V Zener diodes, then they limit DC voltage across your 63 V cap at
roughly 60 V and bleed away any extra beyond that.
This will not be a loss when your looping is tested because the moment you connect the DC converter
across the capacitor, the 60V level will go down for sure. Notice that the converter I gave a link
to ebay finishes working under 30 V DC input to it, this can be a drawback.

Notice: I am not responsible for any damage your exploding capacitors may cause !! Be careful !!
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 28, 2018, 10:54:41 PM
Hi Itsu,
Very likely the RF voltage level the coil produces is not high enough.  I think the 120-130 V DC level the Doc had in his capacitor is an indication how high the RF field might be at the top of his L3 coil with the cliplead attached to it.We do not know his generator output voltage level, maybe he cranked it up to 25-30V peak to drive his L3.
Maybe you could check the received DC level with a puffer cap also, without any LEDs.  The cap is charged to the peak values
of the fields available around the cliplead / coupling wire I suppose.
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: iQuest on July 29, 2018, 02:29:47 AM
Hi Gyula:
   Appreciate the additional wave reflection info.  I had previously read some of the Tesla coil analytical papers and articles by the Corum brothers, the link you posted was a good refresher and is the best
one to start with, some of the others are very technical and can be heavy on the math.  You made a very important point and I would like to clarify a term that you used.  You stated "...in case of a coil when
it is fed continuously with input energy at the quarter wave resonant frequency (not the case for a quasi arbitrary single wave traveling in the simulation), the resonance not only doubles but enhances the
amplitude manifold at the open end (voltage amplification)."  I may not understand the context of your use of the word 'manifold' (mathematics term) but I think it's most likely a typo which you meant to be
'manyfold' (by many times).
   None the less, I understand the very important point that you are making which relates to this application.  When an L3 coil with an open end is fed continuously with input energy at quarter wave resonant
frequency a very high voltage magnification can be achieved at the open end, much more than double.  The higher the coil Q and VSWR the higher the Vmax at the coil open end and the lower the Vpp that
would be needed from the input source FG or crystal oscillator to conduct experiments.  In his recent standing wave video Dr. Stiffler demonstrated a method which brightly lit up the LEDs on the Cree bulb
board with FG set to 10Vpp (2:02):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_ynVaUGHM
   In addition to coil Q, TinselKoala also makes an important point about the need to practice good RF circuit layout design.  During his earlier years Dr. Stiffler stated that he stopped using breadboards for
RF circuits to avoid problems caused by parasitic capacitance and inductance.  Although breadboards are very convenient this may be contributing to some of the problems being experienced by some
experimenters at these higher frequencies and/or may explain some of the variation in results.  Much more going on here that can be learned from which would be missed if not studied in more depth,
thanks again to you and the others for your help to learn and understand it better.

"It can be shown that the ultimate limit in voltage rise on the coil is set by the degree of coherence of the up and back resonator waves." -Corum brothers
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 29, 2018, 03:38:18 AM
Gyula---Dr. Stiffler's post shows up at the top as a 'highlighted post'.  He made the post 11 hours ago.  The first part deals with RF and antennas.  He later makes a statement about Close, Near, and Far field influence on the transmitter.  The last statement is about the ring being driven by voltage and a tiny amount of current and that the ring itself is producing the current.  It is that last statement that is really the important part of the post.  Here is a link to my video again and his post should show up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdWBj8Lyb1g&lc=UgxZ6ealjfWzGYOVaL14AaABAg

Itsu---I started out with just 6 diodes and one LED.  I just twisted them together to see if it worked.  I then soldered up a 1/2 Stiffler Ring of 7 diodes and 6 LEDs.  That is what is in my video.  I think Doc stated that his generator put out 25v peak to peak and mine only puts out 20v.  The clip lead thing I had trouble with and that is why I used a solid wire with two alligator clips on it.  The whole setup interrelates in resonance.  You have to play with it.  That is why I made the statement about the frequency.  This does work really well with my crystal oscillator also.

All---I tried Doc's latest experiment with the cap but I did it in a simpler and safer way.  I just attached a 35v / 100uf cap across the 6 LEDs I am using in my 7 diode Ring.  It charges up to about 15v fast and the LEDs come on bright and basically holds the voltage there.  By watching how long it takes for the LED array to come on you can see how fast the cap charges and get an idea of current output..  I tried hooking up one of my simple reed switch pulse motors to it but have not had any luck yet getting that to work.  I don't think that this is putting out much current.  Perhaps with a bigger ring you get more.

--Lidmotor

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 29, 2018, 05:44:28 AM
Try using Schottky diodes, small ones. Just make sure the total max reverse voltage of your diode ring is greater than the peaks of the received waveform.
If you have the Hitachi diodes I recommended earlier, try using just one, across one LED, very tight small loop area, and probe around your cellphone and wifi router and microwave oven door.

Basic wireless rx looks like this. At the frequencies 10 - 30 MHz your diode string wiring inductance and diode capacitance is enough to serve as the inductor and tuning cap in the schematic. The ground becomes virtual, again due to the capacitive coupling to the Earth. The reservoir cap smooths and accumulates the output which is available at the + - terminals shown.


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 29, 2018, 08:19:07 AM
Well, I suggest testing it but keep a DC voltmeter across the supercap to see first how fast
the diode loop is able to charge it?  And when the 2.6 - 2.7 V DC level is reached then finish
charging unless you want to destroy it...

This suggestion is also valid for your 1000 uF, 63 V capacitor: no need for the Zener diode
protection directly across the capacitor if you always keep a DC voltmeter across it and you
continuously watch the voltage while testing.
If you have 5 pieces of 12 V Zener diodes, then they limit DC voltage across your 63 V cap at
roughly 60 V and bleed away any extra beyond that.
This will not be a loss when your looping is tested because the moment you connect the DC converter
across the capacitor, the 60V level will go down for sure. Notice that the converter I gave a link
to ebay finishes working under 30 V DC input to it, this can be a drawback.

Notice: I am not responsible for any damage your exploding capacitors may cause !! Be careful !!
Thanks gyula. No problem I am careful. is germanium diods like AA119 increased the output voltage? I want to test it with germanium loop diods. the germanium diods ( AA119 ) can harvesting the wifi radiation and convert it to DC voltage and can running one LED at high brightness.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Ed morbus on July 29, 2018, 09:26:32 AM
erfandl you can get from old power supply 200v electric capacitor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 29, 2018, 10:00:37 AM
erfandl you can get from old power supply 200v electric capacitor
I'm using 4400 uF 50 volt cap its very fast charging with loop diodes.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 29, 2018, 11:41:40 AM
Thanks gyula. No problem I am careful. is germanium diods like AA119 increased the output voltage? I want to test it with germanium loop diods. the germanium diods ( AA119 ) can harvesting the wifi radiation and convert it to DC voltage and can running one LED at high brightness.
Hi Erfandl,

Yes, the AA119 Germanium diode type should have less forward voltage loss introduced into the loop,  in theory, than the 1N4148 or 1N914 Silicon types do. This is what I thought but I just checked Data sheet for the AA119 and I am a bit surprised because it says VF=0.56 V at IF=1 mA and VF=1.5 V at IF=10 mA which is simply much worse than an 1N4148 if true!!
So you can test it in practice of course but do not be surprised if results are not as favorable as with 1N4148 types.

With your digital multimeter, you can test forward voltage drop for any such diode, usually the forward test current is 1 mA and the DMM displays the forwards voltage drop.  You need to set the range switch into the Diode test position. What does is show for an AA119 and what does it show for a 1N4148: you can compare them.  At 1 mA, the AA119 may have less forward voltage but at 10 mA it may have higher than an 1N4148 or a Schottky diode TinselKoala did mention in Page 11. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 29, 2018, 12:31:04 PM
Hi iQuest,

Yes I meant the RF voltage amplitude increases many times (i.e. manifold) higher. English is my 2nd language and in my biggest dictionary it is spelled as manifold. The word manyfold is not included...  but I know it is also used like you are using.  8)   I just know as 'manifold' and have come across with it many times in different papers, spelled as manifold (meaning many times).

Okay on the 10 Vpp amplitude the Doc used in that video, I have seen it and he showed a very interesting test with the current loop (that drives the single white LED) and with the standing wave at the other L3 coil driving the Cree board.

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 29, 2018, 12:54:18 PM
Gyula---Dr. Stiffler's post shows up at the top as a 'highlighted post'.  He made the post 11 hours ago.  The first part deals with RF and antennas.  He later makes a statement about Close, Near, and Far field influence on the transmitter.  The last statement is about the ring being driven by voltage and a tiny amount of current and that the ring itself is producing the current.  It is that last statement that is really the important part of the post.  Here is a link to my video again and his post should show up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdWBj8Lyb1g&lc=UgxZ6ealjfWzGYOVaL14AaABAg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdWBj8Lyb1g&lc=UgxZ6ealjfWzGYOVaL14AaABAg)
...
Hi Lidmotor,
NOW I can see the Doc's post on top and thanks for making it 'highlighted', yesterday I did not see it even at the lower part of the comments he had written it originally and you mentioned it to Steven Jones to read it below your comment.  I have no idea why this was so I think it was a youtube 'bug'. 

Anyway, thanks, and yes his last statement is the best.  8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: jhewitt03041976@gmail.com on July 29, 2018, 03:11:35 PM
in that specific position in the diagram, the ground creates a break in the circuit at low level inputs, to be able for this design as the diagram is drawn, the the source output to the induction coil would have to be 10x what you desire from the output, it's as is an inherently very inefficient design and defeats the objective, remember, electricity is water, it is not the electrons that provide the work, it is the movement of the electrons, and just like water, electricity inherently takes the path of least resistance.

it needs a work over
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on July 29, 2018, 05:00:45 PM
  The Doc's latest:  https://youtu.be/qtNSko30ZMs
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 29, 2018, 05:18:46 PM


Gyula,

its like Lidmotor says you have to play around with the cliplead length/material.
Now using a solid 1.5mm² wire around the diode loop and like you suggested a puffer cap (470uF/200V)
at the led entry i can have these 12 leds light up (33V)

Without the leds the voltage goes up till 110V.

When using 2 leds the voltage stays at 5.4V, so they act like a zener.


Lidmotor,

its like you mentioned, the length and/or material (copper/braided etc.) seems to be important for the cliplead antenna.
After some playing around i found a working setup which lights up my 12 leds.

Will do some further tests like using my oscillator to drive the thing (at lower xtal frequencies).

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmCBMWi6wgo&feature=youtu.be

The screenshot shows the power in the diode loop, yellow the voltage across the puffer cap,  green the current throught
the diode loop and in red the power via the math function (yellow x green) in mW.


Itsu   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 29, 2018, 07:26:01 PM
Itsu---That is an excellent replication and video showing what is happening in the 'Loop'.  Everyone working on this project should watch it.  You have all the proper equipment to test what we are looking at.  I really liked seeing the current in the Loop.  At 13mA it confirms what I saw yesterday that it isn't huge but it is there.  Many thanks for taking the time to do these experiments.  For those of us without proper measurement equipment you fill in many blanks with an honest evaluation of a true replication.

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 29, 2018, 07:47:06 PM
Hi Itsu,

Yes, it makes sense that the length of the cliplead has a role how much power is coupled capacitively into the diode loop. Your 6.5 MHz test frequency needs longer length for it (and maybe your L3 coil also has longer wire in it than the ones the Doc or Lidmotor used at 11-13 MHz).  At least your coil size judged by the look of (with my eyes) suggests this to me, I may be wrong. 
It is also possible that the longer cliplead (needed for coupling higher energy towards the diode loop) simply reduces the quarter wave resonant frequency of the coil from the 11-12 Mhz range to 6.5 MHz,  acting like a 'capacitive hat' load, just like for a Tesla coil.
The 15 diodes in the loop eat up about 15 x 0.6V= 9V and this loss could be reduced by better diodes. Say a low barrier Schottky type has only 0.25 V drop in the 10-20 mA forward current range, then the voltage loss would be only around 3.7 V. This would mean that for the diode loop inside, an 'extra' voltage of 9V-3.7V=5.3V would be available for driving higher loop current for the LEDs, this would surely increase brightness,  (hopefully not at the expense of an increased load on the L3 coil).
Thanks for the excellent and informative video !

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 29, 2018, 09:16:48 PM

Thanks Lidmotor and Gyula,


the coil i was using was one of the 3 L3 coils i made last week for the 3 coil setup, so they should be exactly the same as the ones Dr. Stiffler is using (same inductance).

They resonate around 13.6Mhz using the earlier circuits loaded with a led strip.

Now with the long antenna-like top load it dropped to about 6.5MHz (using a shorter cliplead its about 9MHz)

I have enough BAT42, 46 or 48 diodes i could use, but the forward voltage drop is around 400mV for them in the 10-20mA range, so i don't think it will improve much (3V total).


Anyway, looking at Dr Stifflers latest video (thanks Nick) of today he was not using any antenna, just the L3 coil laying next to the diode ring.

I did not expect it would work in my situation, but it did!
Raising the frequency to 20Mhz there was the new resonance point (my FG drops its amplitude to 10Vpp above 20Mhz, so i stayed at 20MHz).

Current in the ring dropped to about 2.5mA rms, voltage across the cap still 31V.

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmikYG3j0FA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmikYG3j0FA)


By the way, i also used the shorted turn with 1 diode around the diode loop, and indeed the leds go out, but after some retuning (to 18.4Mhz) the leds
came on again, no matter what direction i put the loop.
So this shorted turn with 1 diode does not kill the resonance, it just loads the L3 coil more i guess.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on July 29, 2018, 09:48:10 PM
Perhaps even more important than Vf is the switching time or reverse recovery time of the diode. The faster the diode the higher the operating frequency it can sustain, this is obvious, but what may be less obvious is that faster diodes will "capture" more of the peak of a waveform of even a lower frequency, thus resulting in a higher capacitor charge voltage. This is because the diode shuts off faster so doesn't allow as much reverse leakage out of the capacitor.

Another thing to try is to use a few LEDs in the loop instead of diodes all around. Use, say, three LEDs in series (to approximate the same total Vf of the full diode ring) and complete the ring with a simple wire, the same total length as the 1-LED, diodes all around, loop. A tiny little trimmer cap across the LEDs may help.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 29, 2018, 10:01:48 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay, and thanks for the comments. Regarding the diodes you have, you do not need to rebuild the diode loop with the Schottky types,  you could fasten them in parallel with each 1N4148 by using say plastic paper clips. If there is no plastic clip then a small sized steel paper clip may also be used to fasten the diode legs together. The BAT42 type has a forward voltage range between 260 mV and 330 mV at 2 mA current as per its data sheet and your loop current is around 2.5 mA now.  This is just a suggestion for a later time, to see the effects of lower losses in the loop diodes on the LED current hence brightness.

In the meantime the Doc has produced yet another video... :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvuYtpMBywE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvuYtpMBywE)

PS: TinselKoala posted an interesting and good suggestion on the switching time of the diodes while I was typing this post, so consider that too of course.  The Doc mentioned time delay caused by the diodes in the loop.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 29, 2018, 10:35:24 PM

Thanks for the suggestions guys,

the switching time of a 1N4148 and a BAT42 does not differ much (5ns), so need to find a faster diode for
to have any measurable difference i guess.


I did a quick time measurement of the current signal at both sides of the led entry, they differ 24.8ns.
So that implies that each diode add a time delay of 24.8 / 15 = 1.7ns, but this time delay does not build
up gradually, instead it kind of "jumps" from 0ns to 24.8ns after where the the L3 coil is positioned at the diode loop.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 29, 2018, 10:48:18 PM
All-- I am starting to think that the cat is out of the bag now about how this 'Loop' works.  It is the time delay caused by the diodes turning on in sequence around the ring just as Doc stated.  I did a quick video of the Loop driving one of my electronic pulse motors.  Notice that I just have an alligator clip on the end of the L3 coil as sort of a top load.  The Loop driver is my crystal oscillator circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R16EDjoNec

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on July 30, 2018, 12:57:55 AM
Hi Lidmotor,

Would like ask why the two diodes as AV plug diodes are needed to use for the motor?
I mean you have 7 diodes in the diode loop and you added two extra ones to it to charge up the puffer capacitor.
Why not use the puffer capacitor directly across the output of the 7 diodes (where the LEDs were also hooked up) and if the load of the motor pulls down the DC level of the capacitor to a lower voltage than the LEDs forward voltages summed up, then they (the LEDs) would not be present as any load in the circuit.  If they were dimly lit, then simply disconnect one of the LED wires to let all the diode loop energy feed the motor.
It is okay though that the diode loop is extended from a 7 diode loop to a 9 diode loop as you show but earlier you used 7 diodes. Or using 9 diodes in the loop makes the motor run better?  Just pondering... 

Thanks for showing the operation from the xtal oscillator. 

Gyula
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 30, 2018, 04:09:52 AM
Gyula---You are right that the extra two diodes are not needed on this setup. Just a straight 2 wire connection to the LED panel is all that is needed.  I was trying out using an AV plug arrangement earlier tapping into either side of the LED array with the joined end of the AV plug. Both sided worked and the light stayed on. When I got ready to do this video I simply put the diodes to both side.  It really wasn't an AV plug anymore and I should have done it differently.  Good catch.  The LED panel does light up when the motor is disconnected.   

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: antimony on July 30, 2018, 07:36:27 AM
Have anybody noticed the similarities between what Eric Dollard talks about in his "Condensed intro to Tesla Transformers " book, and also the crystal radio initiative?

Here is a video where he is talking about the Crystal radio Initiative.
https://youtu.be/-L5axzXnpf4
The whole video is interesting.

In the book he gives some wierd instructions to tune a Tesla Transformer, that is pretty similar to what Stiffler is talking about with his "Spatial resonant frequency ".

Also there are a bunch of other stuff too that rings some Bells.

Ps. I have given up hope a long time ago on achieve OU, this is purely just very interesting stuff to me.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 30, 2018, 05:16:45 PM
All - back to posting. We've had some interesting times here the past few days. Including, I passed my Citizenship test in Oklahoma City  ;D
Just got the hand raised stuff to do now and i'll be American.

My diode ring is far smaller than the others shown, but they are salvaged 1N4148's from junker boards. It now makes sense to increase the frequency because of that diameter difference. Another dozen or so will be desoldered, short pieces of wire will then be soldered to each to make a bigger ring....just to see what happens, but i'll also be on the same page.


antimony - that's exactly my thinking. There are 4x 6ft pipes in a square arrangement under the backyard still, from that crystal radio initiative.
What i'm wondering is, if we are already into the MHz, can we get circuits to run at uA and get crystal radio type circuits to perpetually run ?
Tune to a local FM station and there we go, path lights or other uses.
Using the Doc's cap method and a zener perhaps, a circuit may flash a light for better output.
Not OU, but certainly using free wireless energy at great distances. It's in the air anyway, all the time.   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 30, 2018, 06:46:00 PM
Instead I went sideways...the idea being to see if some unknown diodes would work at all on another ring. The type shown kept cropping up on junker boards, no doubt i've salvaged most of the 1N4148's already.
These are half the length of 1N4148's, but otherwise of similar lead diameter and body diameter. No idea of the type. The colours in the pic below are correct. Forward voltage is 0.55V

A heatsink is sat on the end of the L3, rather than a cliplead (still with Pentium 4 stuck on top).
Driver would be the SEC-18 for the simple test.
A ring was made using 6 LED's and just 6 diodes. It was quite poor, only slightly lighting right next to the PC heatsnk.
Adding 9 more, for 15 produced much better results.
Although it only has 6 LED's rather than 12, it is positioned further away from the metal block in the pic below....they're certainly an alternative diode, whatever they are.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: jhewitt03041976@gmail.com on July 30, 2018, 07:11:29 PM
All - back to posting. We've had some interesting times here the past few days. Including, I passed my Citizenship test in Oklahoma City  ;D
Just got the hand raised stuff to do now and i'll be American.

Well, congratulations :D I know it's not all as perfect as all our past presidents usually touted, but its a pretty good place, despite all its flaws, especially societal attitudes lately, but like everywhere else in the world, the media does exaggerate and twist things to seem more interesting and disguise bias, but I do so love it here, I truly do so miss my Sicily, but would not give this place up for nothing :)

May You and Your Familia Live Long and Happy Friend !!!
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 30, 2018, 07:38:11 PM
Here is my 4x circuit parallel test. The light output is now compared to real 7 watt LED !
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on July 31, 2018, 01:00:13 AM
Thanks Mr. Hewitt :)


erfandl - I wonder how these are in sync with each other. Are they in sync, or overlaying at the same frequency ?
I probably missed it, but is the input wattage comparable/better than stock connections  ?
It's a very neat idea !
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on July 31, 2018, 07:22:02 AM
A schematic drawing of the Stiffler loop. Please let me know if there is an error so I can correct it.

This is the revised schematic. Should be correct now. what was the Doc's SG frequency and voltage ?
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 31, 2018, 07:49:19 AM
Mikrovolt---  All the 1n4148 and LEDs  are connected (+) (-) (+) (-) etc.  You have one LED connected backward. Maybe it was just a typo.  It is just one big ring of series connected diodes.

Erfandl-- I really want to build that.  I just have not had much luck with it so far.  I have all the parts but for some reason mine is not working like yours.  I will keep trying.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 31, 2018, 09:29:03 AM
Thanks Mr. Hewitt :)


erfandl - I wonder how these are in sync with each other. Are they in sync, or overlaying at the same frequency ?
I probably missed it, but is the input wattage comparable/better than stock connections  ?
It's a very neat idea !
I don't know too ! the circuit is pulling 307 mA from a 12 volt lead acid battery. the light brightness output is like when the bulb turned on with 220 volt input.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 31, 2018, 09:36:25 AM
Mikrovolt---  All the 1n4148 and LEDs  are connected (+) (-) (+) (-) etc.  You have one LED connected backward. Maybe it was just a typo.  It is just one big ring of series connected diodes.

Erfandl-- I really want to build that.  I just have not had much luck with it so far.  I have all the parts but for some reason mine is not working like yours.  I will keep trying.

---Lidmotor
Lidmotor - hmm I think the shorter L3 wind coil is working because my L3 coil is shorter than yours. I tested this circuit with Axial inductor but the circuit output performance is very poor. I suggest you testing with barrel inductor.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on July 31, 2018, 11:29:21 AM
loop diode with 16 LED and 100 v 16 uF cap.

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 31, 2018, 01:07:27 PM
Thanks for the suggestions guys,

the switching time of a 1N4148 and a BAT42 does not differ much (5ns), so need to find a faster diode for
to have any measurable difference i guess.


I did a quick time measurement of the current signal at both sides of the led entry, they differ 24.8ns.
So that implies that each diode add a time delay of 24.8 / 15 = 1.7ns, but this time delay does not build
up gradually, instead it kind of "jumps" from 0ns to 24.8ns after where the the L3 coil is positioned at the diode loop.


Itsu


Just to backup what i was saying above in bold with a video.

I taped all to my desk to get a stable setup and measured the input to the 12 leds with my yellow probe
which also serves as the trigger point.

The green trace is the current probe starting at the leds plus entry point, then going around to the minus entry
point.

The L3 coil has the diode loop top going inside it to avoid again movement.

I fixed the starting signal by making it Ref1 point, then move the current probe around the loop to watch
for any time delays around the diode loop.

No time delays are seen untill skipping across the L3 coil (which is on the top of the diode loop).
Right after the L3 coil there is a time delay of 25ns which again stays the same untill the current probe
reach the minus entry point of the leds, see screenshot. (yellow voltage / trigger point, white initial current signal,
green ending current signal)

So to me this means that the diodes do not introduce any time delay, its the L3 coil which injects the
signal in the loop that somehow produces this.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAP9LgPWmfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAP9LgPWmfI)

Sorry about the video, its kind of shaky.


Itsu   
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 31, 2018, 05:57:53 PM
Perhaps even more important than Vf is the switching time or reverse recovery time of the diode. The faster the diode the higher the operating frequency it can sustain, this is obvious, but what may be less obvious is that faster diodes will "capture" more of the peak of a waveform of even a lower frequency, thus resulting in a higher capacitor charge voltage. This is because the diode shuts off faster so doesn't allow as much reverse leakage out of the capacitor.

Another thing to try is to use a few LEDs in the loop instead of diodes all around. Use, say, three LEDs in series (to approximate the same total Vf of the full diode ring) and complete the ring with a simple wire, the same total length as the 1-LED, diodes all around, loop. A tiny little trimmer cap across the LEDs may help.


While waiting for some low Vf SMD diodes i tried TK's 3 led suggestion.
Each led has a Vf of about 2.7V, so 3 would almost cover the 15 x 0.6 = 9V drop of the 1N4148's.

Using my PS i see that it needs about 38V to light up the 12 Leds on the board plus the 3 leds in the ring.

We have about 15Vpp using my FG at 18Mhz when in resonance which is not enough to light them.
Even the 3 trimmer cap (0 - 100pF) across each of the 3 leds can not improve much (1st trimmer left has
no effect at all, middle / top trimmer some and the right trimmer most), see screenshot where the yellow
signal is across the leds on the board.

Itsu

 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on July 31, 2018, 07:54:54 PM
Erfandl---  Thanks for the tip about the inductor on your crystal oscillator.  I will try the barrel types and see what happens.  I also will place the components on the board exactly like have them placed.  At this MHz frequency the interaction of the parts in that tiny space may have an effect.

Itsu-- I was afraid that you might find that the 'time delay' explanation might not be the simple answer to the 'Loop'.  I guess we have to wait for Doc's further explanation of what is happening---and then test for that.   :-\

All---This 'Loop' works great on a Slayer Exciter.   To me it just an AV plug on steroids.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on July 31, 2018, 10:30:07 PM

In this video Dr. Stiffler introduces a shorted turn (with 1 diode) being placed across the
diode ring which makes the leds go of:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtNSko30ZMs&t=3s


I did a replication of this, monitoring the input into the L3 coil (voltage, current and power).
It seems that placing this shorted turn will detune the L3 coil out of series resonance causing the leds to go off.

No matter which way i place the shorted turn, the L3 coil is evenly detuned.

I can retune for resonance again when the shorted turn is in place, which will be lower in freqeuncy and lower  in amplitude.

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bteRDsRfYmE&feature=youtu.be

Itsu

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 01, 2018, 12:38:35 AM
Perhaps even more important than Vf is the switching time or reverse recovery time of the diode. The faster the diode the higher the operating frequency it can sustain, this is obvious, but what may be less obvious is that faster diodes will "capture" more of the peak of a waveform of even a lower frequency, thus resulting in a higher capacitor charge voltage. This is because the diode shuts off faster so doesn't allow as much reverse leakage out of the capacitor.

Another thing to try is to use a few LEDs in the loop instead of diodes all around. Use, say, three LEDs in series (to approximate the same total Vf of the full diode ring) and complete the ring with a simple wire, the same total length as the 1-LED, diodes all around, loop. A tiny little trimmer cap across the LEDs may help.
Hi TinselKoala,
I wonder if the diodes in the loop switch on all at once or in groups or individually, what do you think.  If I understand you correctly, in your above post you suggest the diodes work about all at once.  This then may also imply that the best position of the loop is when the end part of coil L3 (where the near or close field) is the highest is in the loop center point.  Is this correct?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on August 01, 2018, 01:08:43 PM
All ---  Today, when I wanted to test the loop circuit, The circuit shown a certain behavior ! the LEDs it flashes with a regular rhythm ! I don't know whats happening ! also I hear a noise sound from the circuit with a regular rhythm like flashing LEDs. please see the below video and and tell your opinion.

https://youtu.be/KweXHfmq78w (https://youtu.be/KweXHfmq78w)

thanks
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 01, 2018, 03:11:37 PM
Hi Erfandl,
I assume you checked the diode's wire is not touching the metal body of the clip, see attached picture where I mean.
Try to insert an Ampermeter into the battery wire going to the oscillator to see whether the LED flashings are accompanied by a change in input current.  If yes, then examine all the wire contacts plugged into the circuit board etc, look for bad contacts.
Worst case would be if the crystal inside would have started to develop a loose contact, if nothing else is found, use another crystal for the same oscillator to check it.   

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on August 01, 2018, 05:43:41 PM
Hi Erfandl,
I assume you checked the diode's wire is not touching the metal body of the clip, see attached picture where I mean.
Try to insert an Ampermeter into the battery wire going to the oscillator to see whether the LED flashings are accompanied by a change in input current.  If yes, then examine all the wire contacts plugged into the circuit board etc, look for bad contacts.
Worst case would be if the crystal inside would have started to develop a loose contact, if nothing else is found, use another crystal for the same oscillator to check it.   

Gyula
thanks Gyula. problem solved by reassemble the circuit
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on August 01, 2018, 07:57:31 PM
Am glad you fixed it..it looked to me like you'd done a Dr. Frankenstein on your circuit, it had come alive and was showing its heartbeat.
Sometimes i'm very glad to be wrong  :D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on August 02, 2018, 05:28:30 AM

So to me this means that the diodes do not introduce any time delay, its the L3 coil which injects the
signal in the loop that somehow produces this.


Just guessing,
From what is shown on the scope the diodes remain in conduction. I am not certain but I don't see the presence of any 4-6 nS delay from junction turn off.
Interestingly in the case of  L3 placement concentric to the loop there does appear to be lead lag as shown. The dynamics of the loop might be a circular wave guide
and the frequency drop might be the total reverse diode junction capacitance. Simlar to tuning miniature magnetic transmitting loop. Which makes me think that
a varicap or varactor insertion might show more effect on the frequency and some advantage possibly more interaction with the outer lattice having the original frequency.

Tnx, Joe
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 02, 2018, 10:57:33 AM

Quote
Just guessing,
From what is shown on the scope the diodes remain in conduction. I am not certain but I don't see the presence of any 4-6 nS delay from junction turn off.
Interestingly in the case of  L3 placement concentric to the loop there does appear to be lead lag as shown. The dynamics of the loop might be a circular wave guide
and the frequency drop might be the total reverse diode junction capacitance. Simlar to tuning miniature magnetic transmitting loop. Which makes me think that
a varicap or varactor insertion might show more effect on the frequency and some advantage possibly more interaction with the outer lattice having the original frequency.

Tnx, Joe
 

Thanks uV,

indeed, no sign of the 4-6ns delay from each diode junction turn off.

I got an interesting comment on my YT video about the 25ns delay being the half time of the freqeuncy
used (@ 20MHz, 1 full periode or wave = 50ns).

At the input of the L3 coil at resonance, i have shown that we have voltage and current in phase,
so it seems that behind (output?) this L3 coil the current is 25ns delayed or 180° out of phase compared to the input.

This could mean that the L3 coil causes this 180° current shift as it is a ½ wavelength long (i would have
expected it to be ¼ wavelength).

So again, this could mean that the L3 coil is introducing (injecting) the current into the diode ring
at both sides of the L3 coil (with this 180° phase difference).

Need to find a way to show the wavelength across the L3 coil.......


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 02, 2018, 01:55:56 PM
Hi Itsu,

Would it make sense to check the voltage waveform across some of the diodes, I wonder.  Using the two scope probes in differential mode they may not disturb the operation of the loop too much.

As a variation, perhaps it would not disturb the loop too much either if you monitor the current waveform with the current probe at say near the LED + input, let's consider it as a reference,  and see the voltage waveform across a diode at a time with the two probes in differential mode, moving the two probes from diode to diode.

IF these measurements would "detune" the diode loop the moment the two voltage probes tip are touching the two legs of a diode, then try to readjust the frequency, perhaps this does not fool us much...  Of course if such detuning happens at say 7 diodes later as you move the tips, then do not retune the frequency because it would be a different situation phase wise.

One more observation: You guided through the diode loop wire inside the coil L3. You did this because this was the best arrangement for probing the delay I suppose? If you do not lead the diode loop wire inside L3 but guide it outside of it, question is how the delay measurement would change alongside the loop?  Would this be worth checking?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 02, 2018, 10:27:13 PM

Gyula,

ok,  i tried to follow your suggestion, but have difficulty in that the differential signals are very noisy.
I trigger on the current probe signal at the plus led entry which is reasonable stable, but then the both
differential signals are showing multiple signals (thick / wavy) see screenshot.
Green is current probe at 1st diode, blue and purple are wavy differential signals across diode 1, red is math
trace blue - purple.

Going up from the first diode at the leds plus side from a minus value (-440mV) up to the diode just before
the L3 coil (7th diode) to a positive value (1.5V).
Remember i have 15 diodes in the ring, 7 before the L3 coil, 1 at the L3 coil (#8) and 7 behind the L3 coil.


Skipping the L3 coil so going over to the 9th diode kills almost the signal and is not retuneable, so
going on the the next (10th) diode shows a similar patern, but now reversed, so from positive 1.5V to
negative 400mV at the last diode (all 180° phase shifted).

Leading the diode ring through the L3 coil or above or below it does not make any difference concerning the
delay times measured.

I had both my video camera batteries drained somehow, so no video now.

Itsu


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 03, 2018, 05:50:54 AM
New video from Dr. Stiffler:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VRqf8E8VIM&t=0s

Two Loops now, circuit diagrams,  and a discussion about current in the Loop.

----Lidmotor

PS---Notice that he built up the whole thing on a breadboard.  This is something that he normally never does.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 03, 2018, 12:47:39 PM

video's of the measurements across the diodes from my above post untill the battery was drained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwL60dg5_bc&feature=youtu.be


I have no idea where Dr. Stiffler is leading us to, so i will stop following along with replications for now.


Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 03, 2018, 04:31:57 PM
   Itsu:   In his last video, he is showing how we have been missing out on 1/2 of the available juice to power the leds.   He is also showing us how the loop creates a much bigger area for the HV to work on.   Things are getting interesting...  and we're all just learning the ropes, together.
   The Doc is just guessing at what is going on, and could use some help from guys like you, with all the test gear.

    I'm still following along.  Now my wireless field has grown to about 3 or 4 inches away from the L3 coil, sometimes even to 6 inches away from the source, and even further
    I think it IS there that the magic lies
    NO clip leads  below>
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 03, 2018, 07:46:43 PM
Itsu--  I agree that at this point it is difficult to know which way Doc is going with his experiments.  I found this video dealing with capacitive power transmission using just the signal from a function generator and it may apply to what we are looking at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YegIW-1hbvQ

NickZ---  It looks like you now have things working right.  Any thoughts about it?  What do you think is happening?

--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 03, 2018, 08:48:33 PM
Hi Itsu,

Many thanks for all the trouble you kindly invested in doing these measurements.
The close field may have influenced the probes near both ends of the L3 coil, that was probably the cause why the amplitudes changed that much, mainly after you reached the other side of L3. 

The latest video from the Doc is interesting in that it turns out it is NOT the loop current which makes the LEDs give light but the self capacity in parallel with them each, forming the individual current loops for each LED. You also measured rather low loop currents with the current probe, around between 1 to 2 mA or so, most of the time and it is a low value to cause brightness you found.

With the use of the breadboard the Doc may wish to indicate there is no need using the big diameter loop (but it needs further refinements like the use of coupling capacitors to separate the two loops galvanically from the common L3 when two chains of diodes feed the common points of two LED boards). 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 03, 2018, 09:29:16 PM

Thanks guys,

Lidmotor,  yes, nice video, this impedance matching is important, but its hard to find a good match without
very expensive equipment.


Gyula,  no problem, and yes its interesting that he mentions that the self capacitance in parallel with each
led forms a current loop, but no more mentioning of a time delay, and this is where i do have problems with,
this "change of plans" all the time.

Or does it all fit together in the end like a big puzzle?

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: lancaIV on August 03, 2018, 09:41:20 PM
Probably Dr.Stiffler wants to show the reversibility from an " optical rectenna" device  and then closing the loop.
An electro- optical or opto- electrical carnot cycle arrangement in macro- stage with later morphing MEMS possibiity.
Sincerely
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: erfandl on August 03, 2018, 10:25:55 PM
OK. What's the end of it now? Can we getting the free energy? Can we finding the universe energy secret? so what can we do with SEC? there is no more output than input. the nikola tesla do it a century ago.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: lancaIV on August 03, 2018, 10:37:03 PM
OK. What's the end of it now? Can we getting the free energy? Can we finding the universe energy secret? so what can we do with SEC? there is no more output than input. the nikola tesla do it a century ago.
Go to "Gibbs free energy" and understand what seriously " free energy" in physics means !Then you will find probably yourself in the Angstroem-dimension,where the quantummechanik with hisown laws governate ! " electron tunneling" for example, nano- tube ambient.
Sincerely
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 04, 2018, 12:17:30 AM
Itsu,  I do hope that this all will fit together sooner or later, depending on the Doc's further willingness to share.

Lidmotor, first thanks for reporting the setup works nicely for you with a Slayer exciter. The video link you gave on capacitive wireless power transfer is interesting but it uses resonance at the receiver side too and this side in the Doc's circuits would be each LED with its capacity feeding the LED current from the potential: here there is no resonance. If you imply to achieve resonance with each LED too, then it may be a good idea and there remains solving the "how to implement it" question.

Nick, nice progress indeed, congratulations. Keep it up.

Erfandl, there is no end of it yet...  and notice nobody claimed free energy in these setups. Sorry if this may disappoint you, I hope not.   8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on August 04, 2018, 08:44:34 AM
The intersection between diode junction and clip lead when impedance is matched. There is a small translation of axis between two torus gives a
bidirectional pathway.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/5dx2H.png

a simple tuner or trans-match gives you a precise impedance match. A ferrite rod is one also.
In a bidierctional system the lattice lines are better to be separated because the intersects are a small distance apart.



Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: lancaIV on August 04, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
The "Gibbs (free)eV energy" (orthogonal) Raum=Space and (un-/conditionized) Zeit=Time dimension "Kescher"
                                     eVolt:   ancient Physics terms " erg- and dyn -units".           
                                                                                                                                                                                             a Femto- second spectrum by Angstrom-distances "highway" with particle eV-energy-potential.       
Fishing in these nano-subatomic-world and transforming kinetical to potential energy needs an chain array of Femto-diods, a nantenna structure.                     
                         
                                            Sub-atomic-world relativity                                 

                                     Loosing c velocity and winning m mass                       
                                   Winning m mass and loosing c velocity                           
                                   Loosing m mass and winning c velocity
Sub-elementary enriching and pooring= catalysis tool 
Sallyfield,Le Havre and Wackersdorf-Project in macro-structure or now
opto-electrical rectenna- dimensional in Femto nano-dimension                           
                                    Fusion and Fission reactor morphing/nano-sizing
Alvin Marks ,METHOD OF MAKING LARGE AREA NANOSTRUCTURE.
Read and think about the MEMS productivity dimension changes 1984 :         
      from 500 Angstrom to 10 Angstroem precision                                                                                                       and from100 scm ( 0,00001 sqm area) per day lithografical productionto 100000 scm ( 0,1 sqm area) per second

                                    1 day~ 86340 seconds ( 23 hours and 59 minutes as "day" base)
From EE engineering to NE, Nuk(e-)lear Engineer or Kern-"eV=Kraft"-Physiker               
                                           Nucleus = Kern= Core
                                                             Strom~current
                                     Spannung~ tension        Staerke~ force
                                    Energy is.....  : energy is Volt and  in quantummechanic    e(lectron) Volt
                                          eV enriching or eV pooring is a
                   " element transmutation as storage or deliverer function"~ battery
             Winning as result Quantum- Physics "Raum" or Quantum-Physics "Zeit"
                                        storage power(power= eV energy x time)-density
             Kinetical energy to potential energy to electrical energy and wise/ vice versa
Logo-metrics : if in sub-atomic world energy =eV is, then eA is = ......                 
                       
                                eV and eA moderator/modulator/conductor
 

Making atomic Mass faster= accelerator/ expander or slower/ decelerator/ compressor
By amplitude and frequency modulation : bandgap/ bandwith ( band ~wave)and elemental " Eigenspin" relativityKI-operator-tools : geral and specific Laplace/Fourier and Lorentz Transformation rules and orders
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 04, 2018, 03:14:24 PM
Itsu--  I agree that at this point it is difficult to know which way Doc is going with his experiments.  I found this video dealing with capacitive power transmission using just the signal from a function generator and it may apply to what we are looking at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YegIW-1hbvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YegIW-1hbvQ)

NickZ---  It looks like you now have things working right.  Any thoughts about it?  What do you think is happening?

--Lidmotor



   Lidmotor:  Not much, it's still a very low power system, and I don't see much advantage or use for it, as yet.
The actual light output is not much to right home about, either, and this circuit is not going to save any money on my power bill.
Nor do I see any advantage in the "loop",  over a direct connection. A direct connection is better, and stronger, like just connecting the leds to a battery. Otherwise, it's just a very weak although efficient Exciter circuit. 
   I will continue on for a while longer, to see what the Doc has up his sleeve, if anything.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on August 04, 2018, 05:10:34 PM
NICK Z SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE..100 MEGAWATTS RF AT 13.5HERZTS.
SEYCHELLES HAS RESONANCE.  ;D
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: seychelles on August 04, 2018, 05:13:38 PM
NON SERIOUSLY I WILL BE GETTING AN RF PRE AMP AND RF AMPLIFIER AND SEE HOW FAR THIS
THING CAN GO..IT HAS A LOT OF POTENTIAL..
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 04, 2018, 05:47:40 PM
   You mean, how much current it will consume, compared to how much light (lumins) it can provide???
   That will be an interesting test. The "big picture".

   Using only LED bulbs will limit what the system can do.  As compared to my HV Kacher circuit, running off of the same 24v batteries. Which can light a 100w incandescent bulb, or many LED bulbs, at a much further distance from the source.

   I'm more interested in light output, than a limited output, in the name of efficiency.
   Good luck with your tests. I think that this crystal circuit needs some power behind it, to see any use able effects.
I already have "night lights", and I'm not looking to make more of them. So far, I don't see the Doc showing much light output, yet, as compared to the same 120v led bulb on the grid.

   BTW:  No need to capitalize the text, we hear you just fine.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 04, 2018, 07:38:03 PM
NickZ and Seychelles--- OK for guys like us the meaning for this 'light' project has a more real world meaning than most.  It is all about lumens per watt and can we light up our place on a small amount of power.  For me I am looking for a light on a small sailboat 30 miles from the grid.  For years I have worked on these light projects hoping to solve my lighting problem using a design we worked on here at the forum.  Some worked pretty good and I did use them on trips but now I am using just this simple $5 solution.  It is basically a rechargeable 130LM led solar powered light.  For what my wife and I need on a 4 day trip this gets the job done.  There are several versions of this light but this one has an internal 850mAh Li battery, red led charge indicator, on/off switch, and the connectors are compatible with normal USB power banks. 

  I know that this is off topic but I thought I should mention something I have found that really works.  On our 32' boat we use two of them.  The small solar panels are placed in the cabin window inside the boat and charge up the lights during the day.  They do not need direct sunlight to charge.  We use the light for 3-4 hours each night.  We are at 34 degree N latitude and the summer sunlight here in Southern California is a reliable free energy source.

You can find them on EBay for $5-$8 delivered.
 
--Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 04, 2018, 10:28:46 PM

I just had enough 1n4148 diodes to complete this dual loop setup (2x 16 diodes), so i decided to replicate Stiffler his latest setup.

2x leds strip in series with a single led inbetween, driven by 2 diode loops 16 diodes each (1n4148), powered by the L3 coil via 2 100nF caps.

It seems indeed that each led (strip) is taking what it needs to just turn on, 2.57V for the single led, ±21V for each ledstrip.

Screenshot shows the voltage (yellow) across the single led, current (green) in the input line to the leds.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ab55U4sQ8E

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 05, 2018, 04:20:22 PM
   Does any one have an idea why the leds are only taking in 2.5v? And will not fully turn on to 4v. So the output is not able to deliver the full amount to the bulbs, and therefore the brightness is reduced to only the dimmer 2.5v level.
   Thanks for hanging in there, Itsu. Much appreciated.
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 05, 2018, 11:15:37 PM
Hi Itsu,

Thank you for doing this test.
Would like to ask that out of the double loops have you checked the current waveform in any of the single loops how they look like?  I ask this because your current probe embeds both of the loop wires simultenaously as you showed. I know the current should have the same shape (in theory) in both loops and I also think if there is some difference say in amplitude too, then it may come from the small differences in the diodes not being identical to the last mV. And very likely the current amplitude in any of the single loops is only half of the measured 2.85 mA RMS, can this be correct?  (I mean the two loop currents seem to be summed via the common series LED boards.) 

Nick, The LEDs are only taking in 2.5 V (to 2.7 V as the Doc mentioned) because the forward current flowing in the loop is only so small that it is able to bias the LEDs only that small voltage. A white LED needs about at least 3 V to 3.2 V forward voltage to give a decent brightness, this normally involves any forward current between say 10 mA and 20 mA for a single LED.
Notice that the 4 V forward voltage you wrote would already overdrive a normal white LED and kill it in a short time.  MAximum a 3.5 or 3.6 V should be involved.
Obviously, the near or close field from L3 coil is not high enough (maybe yet) to create the 3 to 3.2 V forward voltage which would involve the higher loop current hence the higher brightness, I agree with you.
 I think Itsu drove the earlier single loops with DC input voltage to compare it to the measured AC loop current and he found them within ball park to have similar brightness. (If I do not recall this correctly, then Itsu surely chime in.)So simply there is still not enough RF juice to drive the loops.
Here I have to mention the Doc's 'explanation' on the LED self capacitance which would provide the current for each LED so that the brightness should come from the potential the self capacitance continuously picks up from the field and discharges it via its own LED, this may or may not be correct. To check this, you would need to connect a small value capacitor across each LEDs to see any change in brightness. The small value cap could be say a 22 pF or 47 pF for each LED in parallel.  OF course I may be mistaken with this latter.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 06, 2018, 04:07:41 PM
   Gyula:   Well, it may be that there is not enough juice to fully power the leds, but, I have provided over 100v from my crystal oscillator, and still not fully lighting the leds.   It does not seam to make much difference, if the input is 12v, 24v, or higher.  The leds are not being fully lit, and the actual brightness suffers.   I do not have the right 120v led bulb, with the metal backing. But, my series connected 10 led bulb will light, even without having the metal backing. As the led PCB all have the copper plating on the board itself. Which may not be as good as the additional aluminum backing, but works to some degree.

   All I'm saying is that there is little use able light coming from my crystal oscillator set up, for me, so far. Comparable to a single or maybe two fully lit small led bulbs worth of lumins. 
   I think that the above may be due to a less than perfect match and sync between the oscillator, and the L3 coil.  Or not?
But, I don't see that the Docs bulbs are being lit anywhere close to fully on, either.

   We need to test further the idea that the leds are what is producing their own light, from the tiny amount of input provided.As even that additional power to light the led bulbs has to come from,  somewhere, also.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 06, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Hi Itsu,

Thank you for doing this test.
Would like to ask that out of the double loops have you checked the current waveform in any of the single loops how they look like?  I ask this because your current probe embeds both of the loop wires simultenaously as you showed. I know the current should have the same shape (in theory) in both loops and I also think if there is some difference say in amplitude too, then it may come from the small differences in the diodes not being identical to the last mV. And very likely the current amplitude in any of the single loops is only half of the measured 2.85 mA RMS, can this be correct?  (I mean the two loop currents seem to be summed via the common series LED boards.) 

Nick, The LEDs are only taking in 2.5 V (to 2.7 V as the Doc mentioned) because the forward current flowing in the loop is only so small that it is able to bias the LEDs only that small voltage. A white LED needs about at least 3 V to 3.2 V forward voltage to give a decent brightness, this normally involves any forward current between say 10 mA and 20 mA for a single LED.
Notice that the 4 V forward voltage you wrote would already overdrive a normal white LED and kill it in a short time.  MAximum a 3.5 or 3.6 V should be involved.
Obviously, the near or close field from L3 coil is not high enough (maybe yet) to create the 3 to 3.2 V forward voltage which would involve the higher loop current hence the higher brightness, I agree with you.
 I think Itsu drove the earlier single loops with DC input voltage to compare it to the measured AC loop current and he found them within ball park to have similar brightness. (If I do not recall this correctly, then Itsu surely chime in.)So simply there is still not enough RF juice to drive the loops.
Here I have to mention the Doc's 'explanation' on the LED self capacitance which would provide the current for each LED so that the brightness should come from the potential the self capacitance continuously picks up from the field and discharges it via its own LED, this may or may not be correct. To check this, you would need to connect a small value capacitor across each LEDs to see any change in brightness. The small value cap could be say a 22 pF or 47 pF for each LED in parallel.  OF course I may be mistaken with this latter.

Gyula

Gyula,

the both loop currents basically are identical and half of the total current, see screenshot below
which shows in Ref1 (R1) the total current, and in Ref2 (R2) and Ref3 (R3) the both seperate currents.

When using the oscillator instead of the FG i can get some more voltage across the leds and they get a little brighter then.

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 06, 2018, 10:38:59 PM
Nick,  okay on the as high as even 100V from the crystal oscillator but let me ask: what DC voltage amplitude would be needed for your LEDs to get what you consider already as full brightness, did you check it too?  Your 10 LEDs in series may need say 31 - 33 V DC to operate with full brightness from a DC supply I would think and then the current draw would be say around 15-20 mA ? (If you check this, make sure to use a few kOhm resistor in series with the LEDs to protect them from extra current draw.)

Now I assume that when you use an L3 coil that creates the near field (rather than the choke coil in the collector), then you make sure that the L3 coil should be spot on the crystal frequency, otherwise the use of L3 has not much advantage. You surely know that anything near to L3 may detune it. And if you use a ferrite piece to fine tune L3 then the core material should have low loss at the crystal frequency. RF powder iron toroids could be used if you slip them close next to each other onto a piece of plastic or wooden rod. Such RF toroids I mean:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282774499025 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/282774499025)  and data sheet http://toroids.info/T50-6.php (http://toroids.info/T50-6.php)
Of course these cores when you push them into an L3 coil, then L3 in itself should have already a higher resonant frequency than the crystal frequency so that the cores could reduce the original coil frequency. Also, when any so called 'top load' is connected to the floating free end of L3, it also reduces coil frequency, so the use of the cores should be considered accordingly, may be some turns should be removed. Sorry if you know all these fine tuning details though, and your thought on the match between the oscillator and L3 coil is correct.

The energy to light the LEDs should come from the RF field the L3 coil produces from the oscillator. Unfortunately, this is a lossy conversion process: one is the DC input to the oscillator (oscillator conversion efficiency), the other is (radiation efficiency of L3) the field of coil L3 is all over in its vicinity in quasi every direction in the near space i.e. the field is not concentrated solely for the LED boards and / or LED wires, it is spread over in quasi every direction, the strongest field being around the top end of the coil where the voltage maximum should be.

 Itsu, Many thanks for checking the two loop currents, that is how I thought.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on August 07, 2018, 02:07:46 AM

The signal transistor such 2N5179 make great oscillators however we can modify an oscillator for good transfer using a ferrite torus which allows the density of
the magnetic flux to build which is like a very efficient small dynamo.

The power transistor now has what it needs to amplify. The 2N7000 has been shown to improve efficiency in D or E class mode. It was a good suggestion
made earlier here. In some cases found 40 % increase. By not over driving the signal transistor, simply moving the mA to the power transistor.

I was very excited about the latest video on bidirectional loop in fact could not sleep, a lot of possibilities. The ongoing projects are also making great progress paving the
way, we will definitely be seeing better designs coming up.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on August 07, 2018, 08:24:09 PM
The latest video has piqued interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KTJGlbKmM

Dr. Stiffler is using a 12V SLA, a SEC circuit, a couple of L3's, a 100ohm resistor, the diode loop and the Cree board.

What I like is the description underneath:
Quote
Doing final check on the parts to be used in the loop distance test. There will be no single wire, test will be through the earth only.


Outdoors through the earth...exactly what many have been stuck on, including myself most frustratingly for years.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 07, 2018, 10:53:22 PM
Slider--When I saw Doc's latest video I thought of you right away.  We have been stuck on this idea for years and years.  I made a video of a single wire feed off a SEC to start getting up to speed with what Doc is now doing.  A number of people are commenting on how the "Stiffler Loop' works and one guy thinks that it is basically a 'Ring Modulator'.  The more I look into it the more I like that theory.  Here is the video I did today on my one wire feed.  It deals with how the link to the Loop is done.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zR7gHDpqbM

   Here is the basic 'Ring Modulator' circuit:

Cheers--Lidmotor 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on August 07, 2018, 11:46:13 PM
I agree about the Ring Modulator. It immediately made me think of synthesizers, having built analog types and their component circuits in the past.
Looking around, yep, same thing here: http://www.usefulcomponents.com/main_contents/projects/simple_ring_mod/simple_ring_mod.html
It would perhaps be interesting to throw different frequencies through, but with a dozen 1N4148's. Was thinking a couple of years ago about using blocking oscillators and other circuits we work on within music....strange music maybe  ???

If the Doc gets further than 6" from source to receiver outdoors, then my eyebrows will be on the ceiling !

Now to view your vid :)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 08, 2018, 12:40:07 AM
Hi Folks,

I am happy for your enthusiasm over ring modulators and indeed the 4 diodes involved in a ring modulator are in a series loop but normally two input frequencies are needed for a ring modulator (or ring mixer), no?

As I see from Lidmotor's video, he now uses 4 diodes to drive the LEDs and the middle point of the two-two diodes is connected to the plate of a capacitor, the other plate of the capacitor is driven from the L3 coil. 
This means the driving method is via capacitive coupling like was several times already in the case of using more than 4 diodes.
So here there is but one input frequency to the 4 diode 'ring' like earlier: why the ring modulator concept is mentioned? would like to understand.
For me a ring modulator has always meant mixing, manipulating two frequencies to get at least a new one (but in practice we get many new frequencies).
I am not against you: just wish to understand why you tend to endorse the Stiffle loop is a ring modulator. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: mikrovolt on August 08, 2018, 01:25:35 AM
I recall a video showing probe in background PSEC running led board, looks like over-modulation.
Is it the probe, the background or both ?

https://youtu.be/pff8hqqCbWs
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 08, 2018, 05:59:08 AM
All--I'm not sure now that a 'Ring Modulator' is like the 'Stiffler Loop'.  The Ring Modulator (like Gyula mentioned) is all about mixing two input signals.  We are dealing with just one here.  It was perhaps a trip down a rabbit hole. That was an interesting idea but maybe a waste of time to pursue that explanation.

Slider----Yep.  If Doc lights up an LED panel stuck in the ground more than about 6 inches away from the SEC----- I will be surprised also.

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 08, 2018, 03:13:09 PM
Nick,  okay on the as high as even 100V from the crystal oscillator but let me ask: what DC voltage amplitude would be needed for your LEDs to get what you consider already as full brightness, did you check it too?  Your 10 LEDs in series may need say 31 - 33 V DC to operate with full brightness from a DC supply I would think and then the current draw would be say around 15-20 mA ? (If you check this, make sure to use a few kOhm resistor in series with the LEDs to protect them from extra current draw.)

Now I assume that when you use an L3 coil that creates the near field (rather than the choke coil in the collector), then you make sure that the L3 coil should be spot on the crystal frequency, otherwise the use of L3 has not much advantage. You surely know that anything near to L3 may detune it. And if you use a ferrite piece to fine tune L3 then the core material should have low loss at the crystal frequency. RF powder iron toroids could be used if you slip them close next to each other onto a piece of plastic or wooden rod. Such RF toroids I mean:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282774499025 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/282774499025)  and data sheet http://toroids.info/T50-6.php (http://toroids.info/T50-6.php)
Of course these cores when you push them into an L3 coil, then L3 in itself should have already a higher resonant frequency than the crystal frequency so that the cores could reduce the original coil frequency. Also, when any so called 'top load' is connected to the floating free end of L3, it also reduces coil frequency, so the use of the cores should be considered accordingly, may be some turns should be removed. Sorry if you know all these fine tuning details though, and your thought on the match between the oscillator and L3 coil is correct.

The energy to light the LEDs should come from the RF field the L3 coil produces from the oscillator. Unfortunately, this is a lossy conversion process: one is the DC input to the oscillator (oscillator conversion efficiency), the other is (radiation efficiency of L3) the field of coil L3 is all over in its vicinity in quasi every direction in the near space i.e. the field is not concentrated solely for the LED boards and / or LED wires, it is spread over in quasi every direction, the strongest field being around the top end of the coil where the voltage maximum should be.

 Itsu, Many thanks for checking the two loop currents, that is how I thought.

Gyula


   Gyula:  thanks for the suggestions.   I had blown the previous 400v transistor, so I'm using the MPSA42 at this time, which is a smaller version package but still with 300v capacity.   The 221 choke has been removed to your suggestion, and right now I am not using any choke or resistor on the collector.    The near field is now about one or two inches away from the L3 coil. However, when I let the oscillator run all night (as a night light), in the morning the near field effect has dropped. Not sure why, yet, and so has the bulb intensity. But, the voltage at the leds is still only 2.5v. And not ever any higher, no matter what I do. This low voltage is still the bottle neck in my circuit.   I have been trying different transistors, resistors, chokes, capacitors, etz... but still the low LED light levels remains, probably at about 1/4 normal lumin levels for my 10 led bulbs. That bulb fully turns on a 4v, but not at 2.5v. It's a flashlight bulb, meant for 4v input.
   I will try the same bulb on my HV kacher circuit, 4000v to 5000v, and see if it will light to full on, or not.    If this 2.5v limit is not breached, it will affect the output that we can obtain. Especially if the 2.5v, is all we are going to be able to get at the output using the Stiffler set up. As this led biasing idea, limits the output.   I agree that if the L3 is not tuned spot on, the effect will be less than if the L3 coil was not even present. However, this is not so easy to achieve, without the proper signal generator.  So, I guess it's adding or removing turns on the L3 to see any improvements. That is why some of us will need to know the exact turn count, size of mag wire, etz... to be spot on 13.5MHz. And every L3 that I've seen is different.  So... will the real L3,  please stand up...
   Any ideas are welcome. 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 08, 2018, 04:53:09 PM
Hi Nick,

Sorry what I wrote was misunderstandable, unfortunately. I did not mean to replace the choke coil in the collector with the L3.
I was thinking on the field the choke creates is smaller than that of L3 (due to mainly the physical sizes) but to fully utilize the high near field of L3 it must be tuned correctly to the crystal frequency.
So please use the choke in the collector and drive the L3 from the common point of the collector and the choke via a single wire or via a series 10 or 22 or 47 nF capacitor to block DC (nF value is not critical). Now that the Doc showed in his latest video the use of 2 L3 coils: you can also use two such coils in series because they can enhance the resonant RF amplitude further on.
Please tell:

the 2.5 V voltage limit you mention is meant for across the flashlight bulb (and not across the series 10 LEDs)?  This flashlight bulb is what type? a single white LED? Else?

Regarding your finding the brightness dropped overnight: have you tried to carefully check L3 whether by fine tuning it with a piece of ferrite the brightness can be regained to its earlier intensity? Because if the oscillator input power did not change (DC voltage and current), then the next most sensitive component is L3.  Change in ambient temperature and / or in humidity level may easily influence its resonance.

I am afraid that there is not an easy way to bring L3 to resonance: only as you wrote by adding or removing the turns. Under the 3-4 MHz crystals the ferrite from the AM pocket radio is good for tuning L3 if the latter has a higher self resonance than 3-4 MHz. For crystals above 4-5 MHz and up to 13-14 MHz the powder iron material is preferable I mentioned above, they have less loss at these higher frequencies than the ferrite from the AM radio. Of course temporarily, you can use the latter too because it will help you for sure.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: NickZ on August 08, 2018, 08:04:54 PM
   Gyula:
   No I didn't misunderstand you. I just tested the circuit without any resistor or choke on the collector, that's all.   As I'm using different transistors, I have to invent the right value base and collector resistor. Not so easy to do.   The bigger high voltage 400V transistor that I was using previously got blown when trying to double up on the crystals. It worked on up to only 4MHz, any higher and it would not oscillate. But, it worked with absolutely no heating, even with my boost converter at 50v.    The led bulb in the picture is a four volt flashlight bulb which runs on four volts and not hundred and twenty volts

      I also blew the main chip on my boost converter, when I reversed the input polarity which has no reverse protection
   
    So I've been having loTs of fun< blowing things up

   Here is a pic of what I have set up now
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 08, 2018, 08:52:32 PM
Nick,
Okay,  but sorry to hear about your blown converter chip, and the HV transistor. 
Thanks for the picture.  If you care to comment some of my earlier questions, then it may be beneficial for you.  8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on August 09, 2018, 12:32:51 AM
All,  I am posting this here with Partzman's permission these are simple tests with very sensitive equipment , testing is ongoing and he is working to develop a test protocol which can allow more community participation .
tests are encouraging but still much scrutiny to come.
Snip
Partzman
quote
 I'm focused on the potential ability of a so-called single wire device to produce OU.

Here is a variation of the Stiffler/Avramenko device as seen in the schematic below.  The open wire connected to D3 and D4 is 61cm in length and hangs off the edge of the bench.  The length of this wire is critical to obtaining a COP>1 along with the operating frequency and component layout.  Diodes D1-D4 form a bridge from the input to space that allows the charging of C1.  The measurements are relatively straight forward as there is no bias, etc.

I've included a spreadsheet that gives the COPs for sweep periods from 10ms -70ms in 10ms steps.  For those not able to read Excel, the max COP =1.173 at 10ms and the min is .991 at 70ms but doesn't vary linearly.

The two scope pix show the sampled input wattage and the output voltage across C1 measurement profiles at 40ms.  Prior to any measurement cycle, C1 is fully discharged and the current probe is zeroed.

I've also included a pix of the layout.

Regards,
Pm
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ps there is another post following this one
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on August 09, 2018, 12:36:00 AM
Post number 2
Partzman....quote......
 All the previous test were made using a sine wave from a signal generator.  This test uses an Ixys IXDD609P1 mosfet driver operating at 25vdc supplying a ground referenced square wave to L1.  The only other change is the operating frequency used was 2.37MHz.

The following is taken from the spreadsheet for this test and I hope the formatting holds.

Sweep Period (ms)   Input Power (mW)   Input Energy (uJ)    C1 Voltage   Output Energy (uJ)      COP
               
20                                    2.368               4.74E-05                 10.01           1.97E-04             4.17
30                                    5.4                       1.62E-04                 14.84             4.34E-04             2.68
40                                    9.066               3.63E-04                 19.25             7.30E-04             2.01
50                                  12.51               6.26E-04                 22.93             1.04E-03             1.66
60                                  15.88               9.53E-04                 27.31             1.47E-03             1.54
70                                  19.00               1.33E-03                 30.92             1.88E-03             1.42
80                                  21.81               1.74E-03                 33.71             2.24E-03             1.28
90                                  24.16               2.17E-03                 36.2             2.58E-03             1.19
100                                  26.31               2.63E-03                 38.03             2.85E-03             1.08

The scope pix shows a 50k expanded 2us period of a measurement cycle so one can see the resolution is reasonably accurate at 100M samples/second on the horizontal sweep.

It appears that this device shows promise using square wave drive which is far easier to implement compared to sine wave IMO.

Regards,
Pm

Edit: I see the formatting is messed up so I've attached the spreadsheet.  ------------------------
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 09, 2018, 04:40:49 PM
The latest video has piqued interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KTJGlbKmM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KTJGlbKmM)

Dr. Stiffler is using a 12V SLA, a SEC circuit, a couple of L3's, a 100ohm resistor, the diode loop and the Cree board.

What I like is the description underneath:

Outdoors through the earth...exactly what many have been stuck on, including myself most frustratingly for years.

got my stuff ready for the next step:

When using my FG to drive this setup, it peaks around 9mHz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBLQocNYkP4

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on August 09, 2018, 07:07:38 PM
Itsu - Great news there and just waiting for the Doc to roll out whatever it is. I really do hope he has done all this before and it does work, so many questions would be answered. Matched TX's and RX's, abilities to tune, a battery source...if anything ever looked likely to emulate Tesla's experiments it would be Dr. Stiffler's work.

Gyula - my thinking for the Ring Modulator is that there could be 2 frequencies, the injected and the ambient mains. Some strange results can occur when a receiver with a Stiffler loop or even AV plug is near a mains cord, to a distance of 2ft away from it. Nothing needs to be connected to that cord on the other end, reception distance of wireless energy is dramatically increased on the same plane as the mains cord. But also, the FM type effects possible in situations like driving the Base of a Slayer exciter transistor with music from an MP3 player show non destructive frequency interactions. Plasma can be modulated to produce a speaker, without destroying the operation of the output. Radio uses 2 frequencies, is obviously highly effective at especially ShortWave for distances and hence was the mental link, correct or eroneous  :)
 
Partzman - that is stellar work and the positive OU's should be a focus. Perhaps it ties in to the new Stiffler direction, being that injection into the ground would be a logical method for the circuit output. In essence, a single wire, using the ground as the carrier wire.
 
All - However, i'm hoping he doesn't go off to a wide open field in the middle of nowhere land. The reason being that Stubblefield's telephone worked fine in the fields of Kentucky, but failed at his demo in New York. Own experiments work for several feet indoors through soil collected from outside, but don't work outdoors. A single wire amplified music signal can work to a couple of feet and yet a friend in Australia performed the same thing on a beach and attained 40 meters....I believe it would have attained similar distances if he'd measured in feet  8)
From what I know of Wardenclyffe tower, the reason for having to grab a hold of the earth and particularly to reach the water table on Long Island would be based on future proofing the system, as well as making it more effective around 1903. In 1900, Long Island was basically fields and nothingness, Shoreham wasn't incorporated until 1906..3 years after Marconi won the race for radio signals to cross the Atlantic.Tesla's location made sense, but ironically, the very success of his AC distribution systems would have gone on to limit the effectiveness of a system that had its grounding near the surface. Wires would have linked the houses and businesses for power, introducing a potentially serious problem for the tower operation. 
This is a quite fascinating interactive map of photo's, for how Shoreham looked by 1917, the year that the tower was pulled down. Wide open fields, lots of space, but the housing and infrastructure are now beginning to take place.
http://www.villageofshoreham.org/Shoreham_History/Interact_Map_Views/Interact_Map_views_40.htm
So, what Dr. Stiffler does with his ground and where the location will be is of major interest.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 09, 2018, 09:41:42 PM
All--- We are on the right track here but we may be reinventing the wheel.  I looked up this topic on Wikipedia and it goes into all the different methods used ---for wireless transmission of energy.  What Doc is about to do (I think) was done by an MIT team back in 2007.  They used an earth ground return path for the experiment and achieved 40% efficiency at 6.6 ft.  The frequency was 10MHz.  You will have to hunt for the description but it something Tesla was also working on long ago.  In 2008 a group called 'Nevada Lighting Company' did a similar experiment and increased the distance to 47ft using 60kHz.  They used the method 'resonant inductive coupling'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power_transfer

---- Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on August 09, 2018, 10:13:17 PM
Tuned resonant inductive coupling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhBgAAJUPsw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhBgAAJUPsw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5wbyAwgeO8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5wbyAwgeO8)
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 09, 2018, 10:13:40 PM
Hi Itsu,

I wonder why your setup peaks around 9 MHz when driven from the FG instead of the 13.5MHz the oscillator provides, the difference sounds too high at first.

Could it be due to the oscillator output being a high impedance source while the FG has the usual 50 Ohm low impedance output and the "shunting" effect of the latter via the overall stray capacitances of the 'enviroment'  (the lattice as the Doc would put it) can have such a high detuning behaviour? Well, maybe this is the case.
I assume that none of two L3 coils can be tuned individually by a small piece of ferrite rod to increase brightness any further, once the oscillator tank capacitor is set to the maximum light: this would insure the two L3 is in resonance around 13.5 MHz.
In case the coils would need tuning towards a little higher frequency, then try to use a piece of Alu or copper rod (say with a few mm OD and 10-15 mm long) because they will have the effect of increasing coil resonant frequency (versus the normal decreasing effect of a ferromagnetic core).
And if this same could be found for the case when the FG drives the two L3 coils, then my assumption would be correct, otherwise not.

Notice in the Doc's latest video the two L3 coils are placed far enough from each other length wise, your coils have parallel axis, this gives higher chance for mutual coupling than that the Doc's coils position. I mean there is a higher 'built-in detuning' possibility in your arrangement for the two coils (but this may not be a drawback).

Thanks for the video.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 09, 2018, 10:17:42 PM
Hi Slider,

Well, it is possible that the mains 50 or 60 Hz stray field 'sneaks' into the diode loop circuit with a certain amplitude, such stray field is certainly  present where ever a room or lab has mains wiring all around and in the walls. In this respect this frequency component has always been present in many of the tests the members have kindly showed in this thread so far and must have been so with the Doc's tests too. Yet, you all have found nothing special so far with the LED loop tests, as I am aware of and I believe that in this respect this would come from the negligible influence this mains leakage input may cause.

You mention some examples like FM type effects or plasma can be modulated to produce a speaker etc: these are okay to behave like that because they also work as mixers and you need to feed in a certain amplitude to manifest those effects. If you were to inject a few volts from a step down mains transformer to the diode loop via say some uF series capacitor, then it might already show some effect (say in the brightness) never seen in such diode loops if we may start speculating.
Thinking of a ring modulator as a mixer (because it is), the main two components of the mixing is the sum and difference of the two 'input' frequencies i.e. say the 13.56 MHz crystal and say the 60 Hz from the mains. So the sum and the difference is so close to the crystal frequency that the original 13.56 MHz component "rules" amplitude wise: the sum or difference frequency components do not or cannot have usefully higher amplitudes because the input stray field from the mains is very weak in itself (unless you deliberately feed in a few volts as I mentioned above).

Anyway, this is how I see this. If someone could ask dr Stiffler's opinion on this ring modulator explanation or operation in his setup, that would be at least one more opinion to chew on...   8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 09, 2018, 10:45:13 PM

While waiting for "the next step", i made a comparison between my just received SMD Schottky diodes (mbr0520lt1G
20V, 500ma) and the earlier used 1N4148 diodes.

These SMD diodes have a Forward Voltage drop of 140mV measured with my Fluke DMM (diode test setting) and
the 1n4148's measure around 600mV, so for a 14 diode ring this means a total difference of 7v (9V versus 2V).

The leds behave differently with the schottky diodes, the resonance peak frequency is much lower (4.6Mhz) and less
broad, depending if i have attached the DMM for measuring the voltage (18.05V).
Also the white cliplead to the back of the leds has to be there.

With the 1N4148's, the resonance frequency is higher (7.2MHz) with or without the DDM leads and much broader,
but the leds are not that bright on as the voltage across them is about 17.65v.

I used my FG for these tests as with the Xtal osc. it ran only with the 1N4148 diodes (13.56Mhz), not with the schottky's.
Using some lower frequency Xtals (4.4Mhz , 3.5Mhz, 6mhz) made some difference, but adding any DMM lead or scope
probe killed the leds, so i was unable to make some readings.

So we do not see the 7V Forward Voltage drop difference having much effect as probably its being smoothed out by the leds
(zener effect?).

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdgvmFIAkQw


Gyula,  i have seen your earlier comments, i will reply to them tomorrow.


Itsu
 
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 10, 2018, 12:15:58 AM
Hi Itsu,

You wrote: "So we do not see the 7V Forward Voltage drop difference having much effect as probably its being smoothed out by the leds (zener effect?)."
 
Yes, the smaller voltage drop can mainly manifest in the loop as an increased current (the LEDs brightness increased) because of the voltage limiting LED characteristics (they are relatively good Zener diodes). If you feel like doing, compare the currents in the loop when the Schottky and when the 1N4148 Si diodes are used (driving them from FG).
If not the LEDs were used as the load in the diode loop but say a linear load like a resistor, then the 7V difference could be measured more readily across the resistor, depending on the load current, of course (forward diode drops are current dependent).

It is interesting the frequency went down when the Schottky diodes were used, this might be explained by their much higher self capacitance in the reverse direction, see Figure 3 in data sheet: https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MBR0520LT1-D.PDF   Unfortunately, no switching time is specified for this diode, although they recommend it for high frequency rectification, probably very good for up to some ten kHz to rectify with low voltage drop.

Thanks for testing this diode type, I appreciate your kindness.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 10, 2018, 10:31:48 AM
Hi Itsu,

I wonder why your setup peaks around 9 MHz when driven from the FG instead of the 13.5MHz the oscillator provides, the difference sounds too high at first.

Could it be due to the oscillator output being a high impedance source while the FG has the usual 50 Ohm low impedance output and the "shunting" effect of the latter via the overall stray capacitances of the 'enviroment'  (the lattice as the Doc would put it) can have such a high detuning behaviour? Well, maybe this is the case.
I assume that none of two L3 coils can be tuned individually by a small piece of ferrite rod to increase brightness any further, once the oscillator tank capacitor is set to the maximum light: this would insure the two L3 is in resonance around 13.5 MHz.
In case the coils would need tuning towards a little higher frequency, then try to use a piece of Alu or copper rod (say with a few mm OD and 10-15 mm long) because they will have the effect of increasing coil resonant frequency (versus the normal decreasing effect of a ferromagnetic core).
And if this same could be found for the case when the FG drives the two L3 coils, then my assumption would be correct, otherwise not.

Notice in the Doc's latest video the two L3 coils are placed far enough from each other length wise, your coils have parallel axis, this gives higher chance for mutual coupling than that the Doc's coils position. I mean there is a higher 'built-in detuning' possibility in your arrangement for the two coils (but this may not be a drawback).

Thanks for the video.

Gyula

Gyula,

i think when putting 2 coils in series, the inductance adds up, so the total inductance becomes 2x 27uH = 54uH.
This will cause a lower resonance frequency when the capacitance stays equal (13.6 becomes 9MHz).

As i mentioned in the SMD diode post, the double L3 resonance peak (the range in which the ledstrip is lighted),
is very broad covering between 7 to 15Mhz with the 1N4148's.

So the Xtal osc at 13.6Mhz was able to light the ledsstrip (1N4148 diodes), but when fine tuning using the FG it
peaked the lighs around 9 and 7.7Mhz.

I did not try to tune the both L3 coils, but i was looking if there is some change when moving the both vertical
L3 coils to or from each other.
Only when they are almost touching each other (so very close) there is a change for the better (mutual coupling).

I did at first try with the both L3 coil laying flat on the bench like Dr Stiffler did, but the effects were the same.

I will try some of your suggestions tonight, including the current measurement.


Thanks,   Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 10, 2018, 03:10:03 PM
Hi Itsu,

Okay on the total inductance in series connection, they add up indeed and normally the result is the sum of the two IF there is no mutual coupling between the two coils. From this, two things may come:

to maintain the 13.56 MHz resonant frequency for two coils in series, what if the individual coils are reduced in advance to around 2 x 13.5 uH ?  Will they give the quarter wave voltage maximum at their top when fed with 13.56 MHz? 

The other thing is the effect of mutual inductance, as is the case with your two coils much closer to each other than in the Doc's setup, it increases (or reduces) the sum of the two inductances.

It is the magnetic coupling which can make the tuning very broad, it is ok that maximum brightness comes when you place the coils very close (almost touching) each other but how the quarter wave resonance may develop at the top of the coil is a good question in that case.
Of course I do not mean you reduce the number of turns for the two L3 coils and check them at 13.56 MHz. All I mean is the use of 2 coils in series may make tuning more complex. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: tinman on August 10, 2018, 03:30:46 PM
All--I'm not sure now that a 'Ring Modulator' is like the 'Stiffler Loop'.  The Ring Modulator (like Gyula mentioned) is all about mixing two input signals.  We are dealing with just one here.  It was perhaps a trip down a rabbit hole. That was an interesting idea but maybe a waste of time to pursue that explanation.

Slider----Yep.  If Doc lights up an LED panel stuck in the ground more than about 6 inches away from the SEC----- I will be surprised also.

---Lidmotor

6 inches  ::)
I'll give you 6 feet at a frequency of just 100KHz

I see ya'll still using diodes  ???

Meet Mista Transista
10V P/P-->100KHz  ;)
Duel inductive bass drives,with double junction capacitive enhancers  ;D

Whens the challenge start?


Brad
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: ramset on August 10, 2018, 03:45:55 PM
its actually   out side /away from inside ambient power source thru the ground on "flea power "
with no wires at all ,not sure of the distance Doc will be showing tho


Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: itsu on August 10, 2018, 03:46:35 PM

Gyula,

i tried to make things clearer, but afterwards i don't think i succeeded  :)

Setup similar as Dr. Stiffler with the both L3 coils on the bench driven by my FG.

First using the 1N4148 diode ring measuring the current.
We see 3 peaks around 7.5MHz (strongest), 9.5MHz and 12MHz, strongest current around 2.1mA rms.
Using the white cliplead to the back of the ledstrip makes no visible difference, nor inserting copper rods in the L3 coils.

Second using the schottky diode ring.
We see one strong peak around 6.3Mhz with a current of 10mA rms.
The white cliplead to the back of the ledstrip makes a difference in peak frequency (7.7Mhz without it).
Also removing the current probe has influence on the peak frequency (9Mhz without cliplead, 7Mhz wih cliplead).

But all in all we can confirm that these schottky diodes allowing for more current through the loop resulting in higher
brightness of the attached leds.

video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UUmOA_6Tug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UUmOA_6Tug)

Itsu
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: tinman on August 10, 2018, 04:18:29 PM
its actually   out side /away from inside ambient power source thru the ground on "flea power "
with no wires at all ,not sure of the distance Doc will be showing tho

Yes,that is what i was referring to--in the ground,no wires.

!But!,there is a wire--the ground--how do you think RCDs work?
If the ground cannot carry current,then why do you get electrocuted if you grab the live wire?

A lot of people just dont fully grasp how much current can flow through the earth,and how well the earth conducts. Something like wireless power transfer through the ground may seem very surprising or amazing to some,but there is really nothing to it.


Brad
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on August 10, 2018, 06:00:49 PM
 8) love it, competing methods.

Brad, yours is closer to Tesla's frequencies, Dr. Stiffler's is something he also seems confident in.
I've tried bunches of methods and there's no issue indoors in tubs of soil. Some probably work outdoors, with a healthy truckload of salt in the earth. But that would see as much mayhem from critters as TK's wind up zapper !

Up to now, I think what Lidmotor is also saying is that there is a heavy attenuation when the actual ground outside is the connecting wire. It's no way a huge flat copper sheet surrounding the Earth from experiments so far.
Stubblefield had that problem when moving from a field in nowhere land, to a built up city.
But, is that because the wrong frequencies have been used, not deep enough ground stakes, mismatched TX and RX with the wrong range of tunings, what ?
At this point I just want to finally replicate the scene in the film The Prestige and don't really care how I get there  ;D

From the Doc's latest video, he should have his lathe sorted pretty soon.
The race is on.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 10, 2018, 06:02:28 PM
Hi Itsu,

You did succeed in making things clearer with your kind tests. This setup looks simple, yet needs background knowledge and some useful pieces of measuring instrument to explore it and still there surely remain areas to be explored and understood.

When an L3 coil is driven by an FG at the correct quarter wave frequency, a voltage maximum develops at the top of the coil, this is the basic desirable situation.  Now if a second identical L3 is driven from the top of the first L3, then how the voltage maximum changes on the first and how it can develop on the top of the second L3:  the desirable situation would be that the second L3 could enhance the voltage to a higher level than what is on the top of the first L3. Like a "two stage amplifier" would do it. I am not sure yet whether this can be done, this is why I mentioned for this case the individual checking of the two coils with both ferromagnetic and Alu or copper cores.   
I can be wrong with this, of course.

A sidenote: why the Doc used a resistor to connect the two L3 coils in series, why not directly?  Maybe to reduce current between the two coils hence the loading influence.

Anyway, thanks for your efforts.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Slider2732 on August 10, 2018, 06:10:00 PM
Gyula - The extra coil ?

Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: gyulasun on August 10, 2018, 06:14:26 PM
Yes, it is possible.  In his Colorado Spring Notes he wrote about a third coil too.
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: tinman on August 10, 2018, 06:42:34 PM
8) love it, competing methods.

Brad, yours is closer to Tesla's frequencies, Dr. Stiffler's is something he also seems confident in.
I've tried bunches of methods and there's no issue indoors in tubs of soil. Some probably work outdoors, with a healthy truckload of salt in the earth. But that would see as much mayhem from critters as TK's wind up zapper !

Up to now, I think what Lidmotor is also saying is that there is a heavy attenuation when the actual ground outside is the connecting wire. It's no way a huge flat copper sheet surrounding the Earth from experiments so far.
Stubblefield had that problem when moving from a field in nowhere land, to a built up city.
But, is that because the wrong frequencies have been used, not deep enough ground stakes, mismatched TX and RX with the wrong range of tunings, what ?
At this point I just want to finally replicate the scene in the film The Prestige and don't really care how I get there  ;D

From the Doc's latest video, he should have his lathe sorted pretty soon.
The race is on.

Passing current through the ground follows a path like a piece of glass shattering--who knows which direction is the path of least resistance to which receiver.
Lets say the current path that has the least resistance is to a large tree's root system in stead of to your receiver,where the tree it self become the receiver. Even the blades of grass can act as a receiving antenna,and things like this may have to be tuned out before your receiver is what receives the needed coupling to work.

The ground it self has much to do with how much current can pass through it.
Wet beach sand is far better than dry desert sand,and a high concentration of coffee rock would throw out or distort RF induction,due to it being very magnetic.
There are so many factors in play here,anything could happen. What works in one location has a very good chance of not working in another,unless the ground is the same.

This coming summer,i will show you something really cool.
I will shoot a video of me holding a fluro tube in my hand,lit up bright,while im sitting in my swimming pool,and not feel a thing.
But it gets better.
I'll then show you a video of me walking out into a large estuary,holding that same large fluro,and have it lit while walking more than 100 meters away from the transmitter.

What is my transmitter you ask?,well it's a slayer circuit,but where a motor vehicle ignition coil replaces the SEC coils.

Much to come this summer.


Brad
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: Lidmotor on August 10, 2018, 07:58:40 PM
Brad---It is good to see you working on this.  I did the O-scope test you suggested to look for the phase shift that verifies the induction link to the Loop but my cheap computer scope didn't work right for that test.  I look forward to your car ignition coil Slayer Exciter. 

TK----I have watched ALL you videos on this topic over the years and you have a great understanding of what goes on.  Someday I will build your 'Black Box'.  That is my favorite.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2YfA9LU5s

Slider--- I suggest that the first one who gets worms to come out of the ground at 6ft using 1 watt gets a prize.  Maybe a cheese burger.  Never mind lighting up a few LEDs---We need worms!!  PS---No German phone generators allowed.


I found this funny Slayer Exciter video this morning that some might enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzSoabcQYMg

---Lidmotor
Title: Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
Post by: TinselKoala on August 10, 2018, 09:00:22 PM
Gyula - The extra coil ?
Actually there are only two coils in that drawing. It's an "ordinary" Tesla coil, with primary, grounded secondary, and topload.The ground plate is connected to the bottom of a portion of the secondary that is directly underneath and closely coupled to the primary.The top of this portion is connected to, or rather is simply continuous with, the rest of the air-core helical resonator. The structure at the top is Tesla's huge surface-area toroidal construction.
The reason for this coil construction is to enable close-coupling down low, but to avoid any chance of HV arcing from secondary to the primary.The bottom portion of the secondary, underneath the primary, doesn't yet develop enough voltage to arc over. Higher up, though, and
Tesla knew you needed more distance between primary and secondary to avoid arcing. So you have two competing parameters: arc-overand coupling. In this design Tesl