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Author Topic: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology  (Read 83831 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #465 on: July 06, 2018, 10:50:59 PM »
... 
  The battery input voltages are 4v, 8v, or 12v. But, the transistor is getting hot on any of those voltages. ...   
Hi Nick,

Well, I forgot to comment what you wrote above. It is true that the (2S)C1815 has a very wide range for its hFE specification, it is selected into groups. The hFE can be any value from 70 to 140 for the O suffix, 120 to 240 for the Y suffix, 200 to 400 for GR suffix and 350 to 700 for BL suffix. You can see these suffixes marked on the case and it is possible you happen to have a type with very high hFE value (if everything else is ok, that is) and the 100 kOhm base resistor may be increased to set a lower transistor current.  So let's pick a 'worst case' example when hFE is say 700 and supply voltage is 12V. If you use the 100 kOhm base resistor (which is in parallel with the crystal) then the base current is 0.12mA and the DC collector current then 700 x 0.12mA = 84mA. From a 4V supply, the base current is 0.04mA and the collector current would be then 28mA. This latter collector current can already warm up (but not so hot) the transistor from 4V and surely make it hot from 8 and especially from a 12V supply.

The solution is to use a 1 MegaOhm trimmer potmeter instead of the fix 100 kOhm, even a 470 kOhm in series with the 100 kOhm can reduce the transistor heat.
Please measure the DC current taken from 12V to learn about the actual current which flows into the oscillator when the 100 kOhm base resistor is used. IT is very good you reduced the supply voltage to 4V to see how warm or hot the transistor in that case.  From 4V, it cannot be as hot as from 8 or 12V though. 

Can you see a sinewave-like waveform on the collector versus the negative rail?

Gyula

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #465 on: July 06, 2018, 10:50:59 PM »

Offline NickZ

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #466 on: July 07, 2018, 03:59:06 PM »
   Gyula:   Here are some scope shots of my oscillator running on a 3.5MHz and a 7.2Mhz crystal. Scope probes are on the collector/emitter.  Even though I have shortened my L3 coil, it does not do as well using a 13.5MHz crystal, as with the two crystals mentioned above.   
  And now it stopped working, so I need to look into that, again.  This is a very touchy circuit, no doubt about that.
  I will try to add some more resistance, to see if I can lower the transistor heating at 8 and 12v. 
  I don't have any high voltage near field wireless effects, as yet. Are there supposed to be wireless effects at this voltage???

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #467 on: July 07, 2018, 05:09:47 PM »
Hi Nick,

Very nice progress, thanks.  You have unusually high voltage amplitudes across the collector and emitter (264 Vpp or 222 Vpp), what is the supply voltage you used when took the snapshots?  Maybe a 10 times division is missing at the probe or on the scope vertical amplitude settings?   26.4 Vpp or 22.2 Vpp would sound more realistic.  The shape of the waveform is ok for an untuned collector choke without resonance.
Do you have the same choke coil in the collector you showed earlier in a photo of your oscillator with the power transistor?

You wrote:   "I don't have any high voltage near field wireless effects, as yet.  Are there supposed to be wireless effects at this voltage???"

Well, if you have the choke coil in the collector you had showed, then it has a ferrite core too if I recall correctly so that most of the field is confined in and close to the body of the ferrite choke. This may greatly reduce 'wireless effects'. 
A coil like the L3 has bigger mechanical sizes and no ferromagnetic core to collect and confine the field, so much more 'wireless effect' can manifest in its vicinity.  A normal AV plug with a white LED may give some brightness though when you touch the common diode input as single wire of the AV plug to the collector.

Hopefully your transistor did not get cooked by the heat developed in it.  What is the input current? you could use a DC ampermeter simply in series with one of the input supply rails.
Gyula
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 07:55:31 PM by gyulasun »

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #467 on: July 07, 2018, 05:09:47 PM »
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Offline Lidmotor

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #468 on: July 07, 2018, 06:49:03 PM »
All--  I found two good transistors for the Crystal oscillator circuit that can handle higher power and thus produce more light using higher voltage.  These are the two:  MJE181 and BD243C.  I did not seek these out but had them on hand and just tried them.  Both can handle up to 30 volts input into the crystal circuit.  They get warm at that voltage but a simple heat sink is all you need.   The little booster power supply gizmo (like Slider is using also) trips out if the amperage gets too much and with these two transistors it keep right on going at 30 volts. 

Nick---  You are right about the 13.5MHz crystal circuit being touchy. The L3 coil being the most critical component I have found.  This is the best coil for my build:  It is a paper tube wrapped with about 90 turns of 26ga wire.  I used a AA battery as the diameter form.  The coil is roughly 5/8"dia x 3 1/8" long.  It has about 2 ohms resistance and is about 100uh.   The fist inductor (choke) is not nearly as critical and I have used ones from 1mh to 3.3mh successfully.  The final lightbulb LED board is another thing that can give you vastly different results as far as real light production.

Gyula---Your help on this project is greatly appreciated.  You fill in the gaps in technical knowledge that some of us have.  I set out to be an EE but never got there.  You give me a glimpse of what the world of true electrical engineering looks like.  Some things you explain I understand and some I don't-----but it all helps.

Slider---Your idea for using a simple EBay voltage booster power supply really helps on this project.  The one I am using has a built in over amperage cutout feature that saves me from causing little transistors to produce that annoying blue smoke. Ha.

All---Slayer (Gary Bluer) came up with a neat little 3 choke exciter that I replicated yesterday. With a few modifications it will run these led 110v lightbulb arrays.  Here is a short video of what it looks like:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQPpUMIF9T8

Offline erfandl

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #469 on: July 07, 2018, 08:14:09 PM »
All--  I found two good transistors for the Crystal oscillator circuit that can handle higher power and thus produce more light using higher voltage.  These are the two:  MJE181 and BD243C.  I did not seek these out but had them on hand and just tried them.  Both can handle up to 30 volts input into the crystal circuit.  They get warm at that voltage but a simple heat sink is all you need.   The little booster power supply gizmo (like Slider is using also) trips out if the amperage gets too much and with these two transistors it keep right on going at 30 volts. 

Nick---  You are right about the 13.5MHz crystal circuit being touchy. The L3 coil being the most critical component I have found.  This is the best coil for my build:  It is a paper tube wrapped with about 90 turns of 26ga wire.  I used a AA battery as the diameter form.  The coil is roughly 5/8"dia x 3 1/8" long.  It has about 2 ohms resistance and is about 100uh.   The fist inductor (choke) is not nearly as critical and I have used ones from 1mh to 3.3mh successfully.  The final lightbulb LED board is another thing that can give you vastly different results as far as real light production.

Gyula---Your help on this project is greatly appreciated.  You fill in the gaps in technical knowledge that some of us have.  I set out to be an EE but never got there.  You give me a glimpse of what the world of true electrical engineering looks like.  Some things you explain I understand and some I don't-----but it all helps.

Slider---Your idea for using a simple EBay voltage booster power supply really helps on this project.  The one I am using has a built in over amperage cutout feature that saves me from causing little transistors to produce that annoying blue smoke. Ha.

All---Slayer (Gary Bluer) came up with a neat little 3 choke exciter that I replicated yesterday. With a few modifications it will run these led 110v lightbulb arrays.  Here is a short video of what it looks like:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQPpUMIF9T8
Hi lidmotor. thanks for sharing. is indutor 1 mega haner ? ( 1000 uh ) ?
thanks

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #469 on: July 07, 2018, 08:14:09 PM »
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Offline Lidmotor

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #470 on: July 07, 2018, 08:36:13 PM »
erfandl---The inductor is 1000uh and a 3300uh.  I got the 3300uh (3.3 milihenry?) off the circuit board that came out of a 50w OptoLight led bulb.  The little transformer looking thing on the board (that is really just an inductor) also worked.  I can't remember what the value was. 
  I hope you try that 3 choke Exciter circuit that Slayer came up and put your spin on it to light up these 110v led lightbulb arrays.  What is happening in that circuit carries over to what we have been doing here---make light with as little power as possible.

Cheers---Lidmotor

Offline itsu

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #471 on: July 07, 2018, 10:42:02 PM »
Hi Itsu,

Very good, many thanks for everything.

I suspect the toroidal core starts saturating from the DC component of the collector current.  When you have time please measure the input current taken from the 12V battery.
Core saturation can cause the sine wave distortion we see across the tank (the yellow waveforms). And if you measure the variable capacitor pF value after it is set to the best tuned position, you may find it higher than what would be needed for tuning a 8.2 uH coil to 13.5 MHz, this would be a sure indication of certain core saturation which involves a less than 8.2 uH.

Trying to reduce core saturation, would you make the tap at the 3rd and / or at the 2nd turns instead of the present 4th? I know this may sound strange but I think it would be worth testing. This reduces the Amperturns for the core from the collector current point of view but also reduces the AC impedance for the collector, on which the transistor can amplify.  But the increased step-up transformation in the coil may partially compensate for that.   Try to set similar input current by the 100 kOHm trimmer pot when using the 3rd or 2nd tap, should it change but of course you can set it also for the highest output (maybe with some distortion returning...).

The spectrum of the waveform that drives L3 has many harmonics due to the suspected core saturation,  so energy is distributed rather than confined to the base frequency (13.5 MHz).
Okay on detuning the variable cap and the 40 MHz returns, we need not bother about it,  the loaded and detuned tank will have higher impedance for the collector nearer to 40 MHz than around 13.5 MHz, that is all. 

Two question if I may: Did you remove the capacitor from between the base and emitter?  Is the 22 pF or some other value is still needed between the collector and emitter for the oscillator to work?  (Switch the supply voltage on and of when the 22pF is changed or removed.)

Gyula

Gyula,

i have a hard time to accuratly measure the input current of this circuit at this frequency.
I normally use my current probe and match this up with a csr (1 ohm in this case), but they do not match up here.

So i then normally trust the csr over the current probe.

Here i have a 1 Ohm 1% inductionfree resistor in the minus line to the battery.
See screenshot for blue collector/emitter voltage and yellow the voltage across this csr.
So we seem to have 50mA rms input current (@ 12.5V = 625mW).

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjvnQNMkqos


Concerning the 22pF cap across collector / emitter, i can remove it and it still oscillates.
The variable cap at resonance with the 4.4uH toroid measures 50pF.

I will be playing with the tap later this weekend.

Itsu

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #471 on: July 07, 2018, 10:42:02 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #472 on: July 08, 2018, 12:43:42 AM »
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the current measurements. I think you could pull out the crystal from the circuit and measure directly with a DC Ampermeter (DMM or analog) the non-oscillating input current, this would also be a kind of information for the current. And then try to plug in the crystal while the DC Ampermeter is still in the circuit to see how it changes.  By the way, what kOhm was the 100 k potmeter set to when you checked the input current?
I can see filter capacitors across the input 12.5V supply voltage, this is very good you use such. If you recall the Doc's SEC circuits he included a multistage LC filter in both supply rails between his oscillator and supply voltage source, so the RF energy going towards the supply was gradually blocked by the series L and parallel C members of the filter. I am not saying you need to build such LC filter of course and measure current behind the filter, I just mention this.
Would like to ask: when you measured the variable capacitor as 50 pF, was the 22 pF placed between the collector-emitter at the time you tuned the tank with the variable cap to maximum brightness? I assume no scope probe was attached to the collector or to the tank during this time.

Normally a 4.4 uH coil needs about 32 pF tuning cap to resonate at 13.56 MHz. A 50 pf cap involves having a 2.76 uH coil to resonate at 13.56 MHz. So if the 22 pF was present between the collector-emitter, then its capacitance was also in parallel with the tank via the low AC impedance of the battery and filter caps, hence probably there is no or only a little core saturion in that case.
IF the 22 pF was removed earlier than you checked the variable cap,  then the coil had only 2.76 uH inductance, this would indicate a stronger core saturation in that case.

Thanks,  Gyula

Offline NickZ

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #473 on: July 08, 2018, 02:20:24 AM »
   Gyula:   Here's a couple of pics (below) so that you and others can see what my crystal oscillator is looking like, at the moment. 
   I removed the AC filter and capacitor, just left the 0.1uf one, at the input. I installed a 221 choke, but I don't know it's value.
   I also made holders for both the crystal as well as the transistor. So that they can be easily swapped out. 
   The scope is on the 10x setting, as that is the probe that I'm using. But, the probe switch was on 1 instead to 10 times setting. Thanks for the tip.   C1850 transistor still runs ok on 4v, but still gets hot at 8v, and will melt at 12v input. I'll see about putting in a trim pot on the base. There are still two 1k resistors, and a small pot on the board, which I'm not using. Perhaps I should.

   Lidmotor: Thanks for the info on winding of the L3. However, your L3 seams a bit longer than the normal Doc's L3 coil that he uses.  How long is the Doc's L3, (just the windings), the Doc made L3 you have at home?  And I'll try to make one like that, first.

    The two scope shots are while running on batteries, first one is on 4v, and the second one on 12v.
    The last pic is the oscillator running on NO input, or better said, running a 4v input, but with no negative ground connected on the battery. Stray AC, perhaps.
   
   
   
   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 05:48:37 AM by NickZ »

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #473 on: July 08, 2018, 02:20:24 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #474 on: July 08, 2018, 12:00:46 PM »
Hi Itsu,

Thanks for the current measurements. I think you could pull out the crystal from the circuit and measure directly with a DC Ampermeter (DMM or analog) the non-oscillating input current, this would also be a kind of information for the current. And then try to plug in the crystal while the DC Ampermeter is still in the circuit to see how it changes.  By the way, what kOhm was the 100 k potmeter set to when you checked the input current?
I can see filter capacitors across the input 12.5V supply voltage, this is very good you use such. If you recall the Doc's SEC circuits he included a multistage LC filter in both supply rails between his oscillator and supply voltage source, so the RF energy going towards the supply was gradually blocked by the series L and parallel C members of the filter. I am not saying you need to build such LC filter of course and measure current behind the filter, I just mention this.
Would like to ask: when you measured the variable capacitor as 50 pF, was the 22 pF placed between the collector-emitter at the time you tuned the tank with the variable cap to maximum brightness? I assume no scope probe was attached to the collector or to the tank during this time.

Normally a 4.4 uH coil needs about 32 pF tuning cap to resonate at 13.56 MHz. A 50 pf cap involves having a 2.76 uH coil to resonate at 13.56 MHz. So if the 22 pF was present between the collector-emitter, then its capacitance was also in parallel with the tank via the low AC impedance of the battery and filter caps, hence probably there is no or only a little core saturion in that case.
IF the 22 pF was removed earlier than you checked the variable cap,  then the coil had only 2.76 uH inductance, this would indicate a stronger core saturation in that case.

Thanks,  Gyula

Gyula,

I just pulled out the crystal when in resonance and measure with an analoge DC amp meter the current in the
12V supply line to be 62mA.

Inserting the crystal (activating the leds) lowers the current on this meter to 50mA.

The 100K pot was and is set at 56K.

I only pulled out the 22pF cap at the very end to see if it still oscillates which it does, so the 50pF was
measured when this 22pF was still inserted as was the 8pF scope probe attached.

I did not see the distorted output signal as i showed in this post:
https://overunity.com/17249/dr-ronald-stiffler-sec-technology/msg523338/#msg523338
so indeed i think there was no or little saturation.

Not sure why i was not able to tune the thing to that situation, could be the inserted 1 Ohm csr
prevents this from happening.

Itsu

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #475 on: July 08, 2018, 02:17:40 PM »
Hi Nick,

The choke coil labeled as 221 is certainly a 220 uH coil, see explanation why here:
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/23837/values-of-inductance-what-is-the-base-value

No problem that it is not a 1000 uH. A 220 uH coil has an inductive reactance of XL=10 kOhm (already more than enough) at 7.25 MHz frequency and you can learn about other values for other crystal frequencies you happen to have here:
http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/inductive-reactance-calculator.aspx

For a trimmer pot, try to use at least a 470 kOhm or even higher (1 MOHm) for the 8 or 12V tests. You can connect a series 100 k or even a 220 kOhm resistor with the trimmer pot. It would be good to check the input current to learn about its actual value as I already wrote. 

Thanks for the pictures. In the last picture it is surely the stray mains AC field that makes that very faint LED seen.

Gyula

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #475 on: July 08, 2018, 02:17:40 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #476 on: July 08, 2018, 02:54:52 PM »
Hi Itsu,

Okay on the input current measurements.  It is sure that the 50 mA is the reality when the crystal is in the circuit. Analog Ampermeters are a good choice for averaging and "smoothing" AC currents in most cases (not always though).

Regarding the measured 50 pF for the variable cap I believe you diconnected its 2 pins from the tank circuit to measure it with a C meter, right? 
Thinking further on this, if the 50 pF tuning cap was needed to get resonance for the tank, then a certain saturation should have happened because as I wrote a 2.76 uH coil is needed to give resonance at 13.56 MHz with 50 pF. It is ok that the 22 pF and the probe's 8 pF was across the collector and emitter but these latter values were 'seeing' the 4 turn cap and not the full 18 turns so their effect must have been minimal. If the probe's 8 pF was across the tank and not across the collector-emitter, than we deduce 8 pF from the 50 pF, we still have 40-42 pF tuning cap for the tank and this is still 10 pF higher than what would be needed for a 4.4 uH coil. So saturaion is in suspect and perhaps a tap at 3 or 2 turns may help on this.  Any time next week if you feel like checking this would be appreciated.
Thanks,  Gyula

Offline NickZ

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #477 on: July 08, 2018, 03:30:40 PM »
   Ok, thanks again.   I looked at the inductor chart, and saw the 221 choke as a 220uH inductor. So, that part should be ok.
   It seams strange that the red led (last pic) lights with no stray AC. As the oscillator is isolated, and there is no earth ground connection, nor any AC current lines or anything from the AC being used. Yet it lights a bit. But, I'll turn off my breakers, just to be sure that that is what is causing it to light. You never know...

    My set up seams to like the 3.5Mhz, and 7,2MHz better than the 13.5Mhz crystal. I have already shortened the L3. I have seen how the Doc has several different sizes of L3, also.
   Perhaps the "effect" can happen as well, with other value crystals, not just with the 13.5Mhz.
   After viewing Lidmotor's video, where he is using his crystal oscillator running off of a 9v battery, I can see that I need to work on the wireless aspect of this project. As yet, I'm not seeing any wireless effects, or maybe just a tiny bit, and I'm not sure why.

   So according to the data provided by Itsu, would you think that he may be getting closer to OU? Or still has a ways to go.

Offline itsu

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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #478 on: July 08, 2018, 05:53:19 PM »


Thanks Gyula,

i measured again the variable cap after it was in resonance by desoldering the 2 leads and using my LCR meter, it reads 47pF.
The toroid coil measured the same way measures 4.33uH.

I will play with the taps later today / tomorrow.




Nick,

not sure why you think there would be any OU in play here, i personally do not expect any.

Itsu


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Re: Dr Ronald Stiffler SEC technology
« Reply #479 on: July 08, 2018, 08:47:31 PM »
erfandl---The inductor is 1000uh and a 3300uh.  I got the 3300uh (3.3 milihenry?) off the circuit board that came out of a 50w OptoLight led bulb.  The little transformer looking thing on the board (that is really just an inductor) also worked.  I can't remember what the value was. 
  I hope you try that 3 choke Exciter circuit that Slayer came up and put your spin on it to light up these 110v led lightbulb arrays.  What is happening in that circuit carries over to what we have been doing here---make light with as little power as possible.

Cheers---Lidmotor
Hi lidmotor. thanks for reply. I build the 3 choke exciter but the performance of circuit output is poor. the cap is 22 pf. I tested with 30pf trimmer but not any change. inductors is 1mh. power source is 3.7 volt battery. the circuit starting oscillate only with my hand.






 

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