Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency (Read 572981 times)

Vortex1 · « **Reply #1350 on:** May 04, 2017, 03:45:32 AM »

Would this test method be of any value? It allows current sensing in the primary ground leg and should eliminate the normal heavy ground loop of the SG.

A suitable wideband isolation transformer for L3, L4 can be made on a small ferrite core, have very few turns at these frequencies and can be designed to have very low coupling capacitance.

We don't have to care about the losses in the wideband isolation transformer because we are measuring on the output of this transformer which is measured input to the DUT. A well designed transformer will adequately reflect the generator impedance or turns ratio can be adjusted to provide a proper impedance match to the DUT (which Vasik suggested could be useful).

It allows sensing input current on the input side, ground referenced, and allows noting coupling capacitance and power leakage to ground through the TBF on the output side sense resistor or that resistor can be eliminated so that you can make a possibly more accurate measurement of output power on the right hand side, as well as input power on the left.

IOW R2 and probe 4 are not really needed with this method. The bottom of the winding on the right can go directly to ground. (ver2)

All scope probes can be star grounded at the schematic ground point.

I'm sure partzman (or someone) has probably tried this and I missed it. If of no value, disregard.

Regards

MileHigh · « **Reply #1351 on:** May 04, 2017, 04:11:07 AM »

Carroll:

Read this:

Quote

Do you think people are stupid that not understand what is a transformer and a coil ? Or you think you are really more cleaver than others ?
Make something useful instead of simple create noise, because until now you not add nothing practical and positive to this thread with such behavior.
Do you think you are help anyone at moment ? To me seems not

Are you saying that there is nothing there? I count six personal put-downs in that quote. Don't you? And that's just a snippet of his first attack posting today.

Here is the truth: I am saying, "Is the Tesla bifilar pancake coil of any use?" And that upsets people and they attack me personally. Because I speak from an alternative viewpoint, people don't give a rat's ass if I am attacked. If the roles were reversed and I came on like a "bouncer" like Nelson then everybody would be freaking out. It's a double-standard and that's unacceptable.

At least three or four times I had to post to Nelson, "No more ad hominem attacks." Then after that he attacked me again, and then again today. Here is the psychology, "I don't like what that guy is saying so I am going to make postings that demean and degrade him personally." You can find probably at least 50 examples from Nelson of comments similar to the six that you see quoted above. He is trying to play the "big man" and "act as the leader of the tribe" thinking that people are going to be impressed by his ignorant uncouth behaviour.

I am not the issue, and that's the real truth. It's takes character to recognize this and decouple yourself from the whole Tesla fandom thing. If I make a technical point, I don't expect to be attacked personally, and I am not going to be attacked personally. If some people reading had the character and courage to tell Nelson to stop, he would probably stop right away.

Quote

But I have to say I am disappointed that you have taken such a hard stance against some guys that are trying to investigate an anomaly.

I am not taking any stance against anybody trying to investigate an anomaly. I am assuming that you are referring to Partzman's transformer setup. I have no clue what you are talking about. Beyond that, I am just asking some frank questions about the Tesla bifilar pancake coil because they are worth asking. Yes, it's politically incorrect, but people need to see both sides of a situation and deal with reality. There are still no answers about the pancake coil.

As far as giving Nelson some slack, I am assuming that you are talking about my comments on his videos. Look, I am just telling him the truth. Why does knowledge advancement progress like a glacier on the forums? It's because very often people won't speak honestly about what they see other people are doing on the bench. It's always, "That's really cool man." That's gets you nowhere fast. There is nothing wrong with simple straightforward comments. A pair of pancake coils face-to-face make for a lousy air-core transformer compared to doing it conventionally. That is fact, and people should not get hurt egos for discussing facts. And if they get hurt egos just the same, they should not turn around and attack you personally over technical comments.

I am not here to bash anyone, and likewise I am not here to be bashed. And I am certainly not here to be personally bashed when i make technical comments.

There is a temptation to say nasty ugly things about people personally when they make technical comments that upset your beliefs or point of view. It's like a sickness, and it has to stop. Argue the technical points and stop attacking people personally. Every person should have the strength of character and the personal integrity and the self-respect to behave properly.

MileHigh

MileHigh · « **Reply #1352 on:** May 04, 2017, 04:25:06 AM »

Quote from: Vortex1 on May 04, 2017, 03:45:32 AM

Would this test method be of any value? It allows current sensing in the primary ground leg and should eliminate the normal heavy ground loop of the SG.

A suitable wideband isolation transformer for L3, L4 can be made on a small ferrite core, have very few turns at these frequencies and can be designed to have very low coupling capacitance.

It allows sensing input current on the input side, ground referenced, and allows noting coupling capacitance and power to ground through the TBF on the output side sense resistor or that resistor can be eliminated so that you can make a possibly more accurate measurement of output power on the right hand side, as well as input power on the left.

IOW R2 and probe 4 are not really needed with this method. The bottom of the winding on the right can go directly to ground. (ver2)

All scope probes can be star grounded at the schematic ground point.

I'm sure partzman (or someone) has probably tried this and I missed it. If of no value, disregard.

Regards

ION,

Your expertise is shining through. I think it's a great idea to get rid of the ungainly big scope ground and have a very localized ground. The star for the grounds is also great, a classic! I think that could indeed make for improvements in the setup.

MileHigh

Vortex1 · « **Reply #1353 on:** May 04, 2017, 05:04:32 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on May 04, 2017, 04:25:06 AM

ION,

Your expertise is shining through. I think it's a great idea to get rid of the ungainly big scope ground and have a very localized ground. The star for the grounds is also great, a classic! I think that could indeed make for improvements in the setup.

MileHigh

Thanks MH, this is just the common sense stuff you try out when attempting to vet a tricky measurement problem. I'm sure partzman and I probably discussed something like it a while back on the phone. I just see trying to measure input power on the output side as fraught with problems, but I could be wrong.

A lot of math capability in the newer scopes allows for all kinds of tricky probe connections, but sometimes it's good to take a step back to what we had to do back in the days when we didn't have that equipment, as a double check.

I feel this device should be tested many ways and if the claim is more out than in, COP>1, then I proposed looping the device with nothing more than a low loss phase correction network since the input and output frequencies are identical. See here:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61495#msg61495

The rationale is: any 4 terminal transformer or other black box that is claimed to have a real power gain
by virtue of some magical construction or heretofore unknown principle can be looped very simply as a proof of principle, especially if the input and output are the same frequency as in this particular device. If there are slight phase differences, this can be remedied with a low loss phase correction network. If the input and output impedance differs, this can be remedied with a low loss auto transformer.

By virtue of regeneration, the problem then will become one of limiting and regulating loop feedback so that a runaway condition and meltdown does not occur.

I don't think we have to worry about that yet.

Kind Regards

ramset · « **Reply #1354 on:** May 04, 2017, 05:25:14 AM »

Milehigh's post which Nelson responded to .
Miles
Quote
Partzman's testing and attempts at replication are interesting and a worthwhile exercise. However, this is at best indirectly related to the bifilar pancake coil. Just look at title of his schematic, "Bifilar Pancake Transformer." It's not a coil, it's a transformer. I still encourage this discussion on this thread.

The transformer discussion has pretty much hijacked the real purpose of this thread. I was leaving it up to the contributors to continue the discussion about the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil. What unique purpose or purposes does it serve? What is special about it and what can you do with it? What practical applications are there for it that specifically require a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil?

So is it real or is it just one of millions of patents that were never used in the real world and the only reason it is discussed is because Tesla's name is on it?

The field is wide open and I hope we hear more than crickets chirping.

end quote
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miles

Its good you speak for EVo and the purpose of his thread

the fact that you cannot see the ongoing work being done around the Pancake coils here boggles the mind,
there are ten guys working on Partzmans MEI pancake coil work
and no its not a replication
its his work

and EVO wants it in his thread as well as Nelson's contributions
they are hoping to find out whats special about the pancake coil??

and Nelson says ?

quote
Do you think people are stupid that not understand what is a transformer and a coil ? Or you think you are really more cleaver than others ?
Make something useful instead of simple create noise, because until now you not add nothing practical and positive to this thread with such behavior.
Do you think you are help anyone at moment ? To me seems not
end quote

and this you call an attack ,one of six or seven such attacks ??

you have got to be kidding??

your post above is much more of an attack, an attack on this thread and its true intent
to find out whats special about Bifilar pancake coils

you try to move the goal posts or tell us what we should really be discussing here ??
the true intent of Evo's thread??
Yeesh

Moderator you can remove this post too

MileHigh · « **Reply #1355 on:** May 04, 2017, 05:46:33 AM »

Chet:

Evo left this thread for good. He stated this. It became a pick-up thread for a discussion of the bifilar pancake coil. It boggles my mind that you seem to have comprehension issues about how I view Partzman's testing.

Now you try this on for size:

Chet:

Do you think people are stupid Chet and they don't understand what is being said in this thread? Do you really think that you are smarter than everybody else? Are you just a smart-ass? Make something useful of yourself instead of just creating useless noise, Chet. You haven't brought a single positive or practical thing to this thread up to this point with your behaviour. Do you really think you are helping anybody around here Chet? I don't think you are, not one bit.

I pity you man, you are a sad sad guy with problems, Chet. Really really bad.

Do you want to hear stuff like that a few times a week? Do you want to hear that as a follow-up when you make a post?

What I said in my previous posting to Carroll about this issue is absolutely real, and your attempts to dismiss it are a fail.

And there is not a single damn thing wrong with that posting of mine. It doesn't attack anybody personally, does it? Or are we playing melting snowflakes now? All that I say is "Let's not forget to discuss the Tesla bifilar pancake coil and I encourage discussing Partzman's transformer also." You aren't seeing that? What the hell? There is no room for a negative spin on that at all, unless you succumb to the urge to make personal attacks. And that gratuitous follow-up personal attack posting from Nelson is unacceptable.

ramset · « **Reply #1356 on:** May 04, 2017, 05:53:51 AM »

I'll tell you whats a fail
your ability to pay attention

Pancake coils are being discussed here
the thread is now a "pickup"?? sorry we didn't get your memo

what is actually going on here
is your making so much noise and engaging so much negative nonsense talk that most of the experimenters have left this topic

you hunt for fights even when your point is under active investigation
whats so special about pancake coils??

your work here speaks for itself
the results are self evident

and I agree with Carroll
he can read too...

moderator
please remove this too

MileHigh · « **Reply #1357 on:** May 04, 2017, 05:57:38 AM »

I stand by what I say, period.

Apparently there is no discussion of the Tesla pancake coil because nobody has anything new to say.

You need to go back to Club Med for refresher training. You are noise on this thread.

Vortex1 · « **Reply #1358 on:** May 04, 2017, 05:58:35 AM »

Maybe a little clarification is needed:

The Tesla patent 512340 is titled: Coil for Electromagnets

It has many years later acquired the terms "pancake coil" or "bifilar pancake coil"

These terms are not used in the patent.

While this thread and the thread at OUR.com are respectively:

"The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency"

and

Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils

In actuality the testing of late in both threads is for a "transformer" with one input leg floating. While it shares similarities in construction, it is wired differently than the Tesla device as the continuous connection is broken, changing it from a singular "coil"
to a pair of "coils" or coupled inductors, otherwise known as a "transformer".

In essence it being now tested as a three terminal device unlike the Tesla patent, yet still may retain some of the supposed virtues of high interwinding capacitance and maximum voltage differences between turns, and neutralization of self inductance, although how effective those virtues were are yet to be determined due to the breaking of the connection, thus separating the singular "coil" into two "coils" that are now coupled capacitively and inductively,
therefore a "transformer".

One might try to argue that it is not a transformer since it does not have four connections, however the floating input leg is capacitively coupled to the secondary, so it is sort of an "autotransformer" which by definition has a minimum of three connections.

cheeky enough?

Regards

P.S. Has anyone ever had real Vermont AAA Maple Syrup with theirs?

ramset · « **Reply #1359 on:** May 04, 2017, 06:06:10 AM »

MileHigh
quote
Apparently there is no discussion of the Tesla pancake coil because nobody has anything new to say.
end quote

what does that mean?

in a thread where pancake coils and related experiments are all that is being discussed ?

are you awake or sleeping ??

you can't see anything going on here?
one of the biggest investigations here in a long time, and you see nobody working with or discussing pancake coils?

people coming out of the woodwork to discuss and work on Pancake coils??

Okey Dokey then...

MileHigh · « **Reply #1360 on:** May 04, 2017, 06:18:05 AM »

Quote from: Vortex1 on May 04, 2017, 05:58:35 AM

In actuality the testing of late in both threads is for a "transformer" with one input leg floating. While it shares similarities in construction, it is wired differently than the Tesla device as the continuous connection is broken, changing it from a singular "coil"
to a pair of "coils" or coupled inductors, otherwise known as a "transformer".

In essence it being now tested as a three terminal device unlike the Tesla patent, yet still may retain some of the supposed virtues of high interwinding capacitance and maximum voltage differences between turns, and neutralization of self inductance, although how effective those virtues were are yet to be determined due to the breaking of the connection, thus separating the singular "coil" into two "coils" that are now coupled capacitively and inductively,
therefore a "transformer".

Exactly and I also draw a distinction between the two-terminal Tesla bifilar coil and the three-terminal transformer and invite discussion on both topics and I think this might be flying over Chet's head.

Magluvin · « **Reply #1361 on:** May 04, 2017, 06:19:08 AM »

From Cifta to MH

"Your constant negative comments have gotten very tiresome for anyone trying to follow this thread."

From Padova to MH

"You dude are an obstacle, go away, find some school, educate yourself while you still can.
Stop abusing this tread and Tesla's legacy and everyone else here."

From Chet to MH

"attempting to make definitive statements [your attempts] about this path of investigation
is completely premature .

and I agree with Nelson , your condescending "shut up " is yet another example or your poor behavior, and weak social skills."

From Acca

"Nelson thanks for your posts I have been reading about you formulations and Tesla flat coil, please post here as I have excluded M.h. from all my views .. He is just angry.."

From Nelson to MH

"You don't have authority or even moral to say to other people shut up . Just respect other people if you want be respected . You are the worst person to talk about respect simple because you not respect most of people ."

"I hope that the moderators of this forum are consistent with what they have done in similar situations with other people that use such language."

It seems MH is pretty unpopular here. Ill send this post to Stefan and see what he can do....

Im tired of all the negativity also. He tries to degrade the progress and talks of crickets, well knowing that a lot more of what is going on is at OUR, of which he has been banned from for belittling John Bedini. Those guys probably prefer the Quality Time they are afforded there.

So he comes here with a modified schematic showing his manual drawings of resistor placement, probably done in Microsoft Paint, as if it were the answer to everyone's problem in measurements. Well he was shut down on that. Twice. Sad. And explains that he doesnt know what he is talking about here soo...Its not helping in the least.

Nelson wrote a post a few pages back to Mh relating to Mhs chatter here and MH didnt like it. Well there are many here that would agree with Nelson in what he wrote, of which some and or most of what Nelson wrote brings about remembrances of of posts in the past about MH. Oh the good ole days

If anyone else would like to chime in on whether they would or would not care to see MH post here any longer, please post your views. Ill give it 24 hours to see how the majority rules.

Ill also make a new poll on this very subject. The old poll has resulted in "yes" most people here believe that there is more to see here and that they also believe some of these things are hidden from us.

40% believe there are new things to learn
0% believe there is nothing new to learn
48% believe there are things being hidden from us
0% didnt care
3% thought the questions were stupid

On with the 24hour marathon poll

Mags

ramset · « **Reply #1362 on:** May 04, 2017, 06:23:40 AM »

I think what is going on here is Miles hates the fact that we're even discussing this, and even more so that we're investigating a claim from Nelson

a claim which seems to have Much merit
pancake coils are special ,and now we get a chance to investigate Partzman's MEI work

and then MH apparently took over the thread which he said was fair game
because Evo left here due to bad behavior and disrespect of his topic

I only stepped in because he was calling Nelson an attacker ,intimating he was in some violation of TOS

sad stuff to read tho [moderatings and such

MileHigh · « **Reply #1363 on:** May 04, 2017, 06:54:20 AM »

Chet, you are really awful to read now. Now it's another vendetta. You are now worse than Nelson. I just want to be able to post technical stuff without being attacked and now you are leading the charge. You know what I say, bow your head in shame. You have filled up this thread with nonsense for the past few hours.

Quote

I think what is going on here is Miles hates the fact that we're even discussing this, and even more so that we're investigating a claim from Nelson

You are off your rocker.

ramset · « **Reply #1364 on:** May 04, 2017, 07:05:15 AM »

actually
I was trying to understand how you thought you could take over a thread which EVo started
and then you said he left due to poor behavior here[no respect]
and you decided you would take it over

you never told anybody you were doing this and here we are trying to replicate Nelson's claim [which has since become Partzmans MEI work]
which EVO IS VERY INTERESTED IN
and you attack the topic with distractive nonsensical posts and "crickets"

we did not know you were shutting Nelson Up due to your own agenda

unfortunately there is hardly anyone working here in this thread due to your Negative attitude and constant berating of the topic

whats special about pancake coils??
we're trying to find out??

seems you are attacking Nelson
several persons have mentioned this here tonight
your perspective is skewed towards your own agenda

you seem very upset...
that he should dare to respond to your attacks on his claim ??

Nelson
Quote
"there is something special about pancake coils"

you have threatened violent acts on him, you have used Vulgarity and street talk and you also used ethnic Slurs against him

hold your head in shame

News:

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Author Topic: The bifilar pancake coil at its resonant frequency (Read 572981 times)

Vortex1

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